The Divine Voice of Devotional Kishore
by Arghya Dutta Kishore Kumar is considered to be a “versatile genius” with so many outstanding facets of his artistic personality. If overall as an artist, Kishore is versatile, only in singing domain he is a “versatile singer” in a true nature. Right from romantic to sad to soulful to motivating to semi-classical to qawwali […]
by Arghya Dutta
Kishore Kumar is considered to be a “versatile genius” with so many outstanding facets of his artistic personality. If overall as an artist, Kishore is versatile, only in singing domain he is a “versatile singer” in a true nature. Right from romantic to sad to soulful to motivating to semi-classical to qawwali to patriotic and to ghazals, Kishore had shown his tremendous variety in his god-given voice each and every time he had stood behind the microphone.
Here we discuss, yet another interesting genre of songs from Kishoreda – devotional songs – where he, as always, did tremendous perfection in singing, although he remained underrated always.
Kishoreda’s first true devotional song was “Leela Aparampar prabhuji teri leela aparampar” which he sang in the movie, Humsafar(1953). The song was composed by the maestro Ustad Ali Akbar Khan sahib. The song requires extensive voice modulation and Kishore sang the song with great feeling. The antara where he goes up with “ O neele ambar pe basaria, teri jay jaykaar…,” the feeling touches hearts.
Next came the classic “Haal tujhe apni duniya ka nazar to aata hoga” from Asha(1957). Composed by one of Kishore’s earliest admirers, C Ramchandra, the song is different, as now, Kishore is complaining to the Almighty for all the misdoingd on planet earth. His voice carries the grief and complaint and very “open throated”.. with “ Maalik tu bhi isko banaake ab pachhtata hoga…” truly depicts a person’s disappointment which he keeps in front of the god,,,
One of my most favourite devotional song from Kishore was in Door Gagan Ki Chhaon Mein(1964)- a song which he himself composed and sang alongwith Manna De. The song “O jag ke rakhwale humein tujh bin kaun sambhaale” is very soulful and touches heart immediately with the divine tune.. Manna starts the song with chorus and Kishore enters very late and immediately leaves a heavy impact with “Kiya sab kuchh tere hawaale, o jag ke rakhwale”.. Manna reportedly praised Kishore openly for the composition as well as the rendition… Shows again, the genius of that man- Kishore Kumar!
Kishore sang many devotional songs in the 70s, when he was on the top spot in playback singing. Chhoti Bahu(1971) saw Kishore rendering “Hey re kanhaiya, kisko kahega tu maiyya..” composed by his long time associates Kalyanji-Anandji.. The song depicts the dilemma of young Kanhaiyya, as he was born in Devki’s house but brought up in Yashda’s home and finding it difficult whom he should call “his actual mother”.. “Jisme tujhko janam diya ya jisne tujhko pala…”, very simple lyrics and simple tune and Kishore’s “open voice” makes this song very close to heart..
“Ram ka naam badnaam na karo..” is perhaps the most popular devotional song of Kishore which he sang in Hare Rama Hare Krishna(1971) under Rahul Dev Burman. Youth getting astray are motivated by Kishore with the “tyaag” and “dharma” of Rama and Krishna here with a voice “pioneering” and “comforting”.. The feelings which he brings here also makes the song memorable and timeless. “Ram ko samjho, Krishna ko jaano, neend se jaago o mastano..”, Kishore calls the youth to follow the “true path”of Almighty to come out of darkness.
Mere Jeevan Sathi(1972) is mainly rememberd for the romantic songs of Kishore for Rajesh Khanna, but the song “Aao kanhai mere dham” is very special for those who love Bhajans.. The true passion and anxiety of a bhakt for not getting the darshan of Lord Krishna, is reflected in the anxious voice of Kishore “dekho ho gayi shaam”… Composed by Rahul Dev Burman- a truly sublime bhajan for Kishore..
Naya Din Nayi Raat(1974) saw this time Laxmikant Pyarelal turning to Kishore for a nice melodious and simple Krishna vandana in terms of “Krishna Krishna bolo Krishna…”, influenced by Bengali kirtan- with proficient usage of the instrument “khol”. The song was sung very melodiously by the two legends- Kishore and Lata and is even popular to this day!
In 1974, the newcomer music director Rajesh Roshan handed Kishoreda a very high pitch beautiful devotional number “Jai Bholenath Jai Ho Prabhu” in the movie “Kunwara Baap” where Kishore sang as many as 4 songs … Although, the song might not have left too much of an impact as a “devotional song” in the mind of the audience, it is very much a memorable and a very melodious song of Kishore and Lata..
But the best was yet to come!! Laxmi-Pyare turned again to Kishore with “Prem ka rog laga mujhe yeh”- a classic devotional song on a semi-classical note in Do Premee(1980)! All the three antaras were different from one another and the note changes were complex!! With lot of vigour in his voice, Kishore sang like a truly “magan” bhakta in “Yeh kaanton ke haar hai saare , murari..” This song is still a showcase of Kishore’s multi layered voice!!
The next considerable devotional song was “Bhole O Bhole” from Yarana(1981) composed by Rajesh Roshan, may not be called a “true devotional song” in a proper sense, but had the essence of a troubled mind addressing the God.
The last significant bhajan by Kishore was in Swami Dada(1982) for Rahul Dev Burman with “Ek roop kayin naam man mandir tera dham..”.. Again a simple tune sang with lot of emotions… But bhajans were scarce those days in Hindi Cinema, and this song remained the “swan song” for Kishore as far as devotional songs are concerned…
In 1986, recovering a heart attack, Kishore recorded his last Rabindrasangeet album (Bangla) with music arrangement of his another true admirer- Hemant Kumar.. The typical low note devotional Rabindrasangeet “ Klanti aamaar khama koro prabhu…” (Please forgive my tireness, O Lord..), according to me, is the best devotional song of Kishore …
A man of many moods, Kishore truly proved his versatility in all genres of singing.. Although, his devotional songs cannot fall in the same category of “Man tarapat hari darshan” or “Sukh ke sab saathi”, but the glimpse of his great talent cannot be overlooked in all the devotional songs he had sung!! A truly “divine” voice!
Ref to the post by Surijit Bose
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Kishore is superior to Rafi in songs where there is switching of notes within a short interval, in singing songs in the Mandra saptak (low pitch), and the genius factor that nobody else has.
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Regarding voice of “mandra saptak”, Mukesh was the one, whose voice *naturally* belonged to that saptak, and for that matter he indeed had an edge over his peers. And if we bring in the singers, earlier to his generation also, he was second to Saigal only in that regard, not close second but a distant second.
As for others, most of them were voice of “Madhya-Saptak”, Kishore also, so can’t understand really how could Kishore outshine Rafi in that regard, in fact Rafi has sung more songs and more melodious songs in that genre, than Kishore. Also, prior to Baiju Bawra Rafi would mostly sing in between mandra-madhya saptak only..
Regarding switching of notes, no one can outshine Rafi, for sure, you need to revisit Rafi’s repertoire, and you will definitely get best of the best examples of switching and gliding over notes.
Anyways, the genre in which Kishore excelled more than others was the one which SD explored, having Kishore with him, that too in very early of 50’s. Fun songs were also executed best by the Kishore.
Myk ji – 198
Please accept my full appreciations sir, I could see the real rafi fan in this MYK ji now. Thanks very much sir.
Vitthal-ji (Ref Post 171)
Nothing personal against you definitely (as I have mentioned)….all we have discussed is in the name of music, nothing more, nothing less.
Also, if Rafi had praised Ghantasala that is great. I never disputed any remarks by any music personalities which you have mentioned, and accept them as any other comments by others.
Praise from those steeped in music means a lot (as I have stated), but its not the only factor that contributes to greatness. Which is why I mentioned that a statement from others such as “Rafi praising Ghantasala and Ghantasala not praising Rafi means Ghantasala is better” is not a correct mindset. It could be that Ghantasala respected Rafi and rated him highly, and praised him (behind public view or maybe even in public). What is correct is that both Ghantasala and Rafi have received numerous praise from others which show their greatness.
I personally think that Rafi’s greatness treads past just Hindi Film Music, where one will see that many from different regions as well as globally are in awe of the great man. This, I feel, is one factor (but not the only one), that makes him unmatched. But surely, Ghantasala receiving praise from others too is noted and appreciated.
I also think there is a wrong generalization about some fans in certain fan groups. Every fan group has their share of extremists, who lack knowledge, and those people should not be confused or bracketed with other knowledgeable individuals in these fan groups.
Great discussing music with you Sir !.
Mr. Surajit Bose.
Dada, your last post explains things in a very systematic way. Though, I would also like to add something here:
1. Kishore had an edge over all others(not only Rafi) in terms of “experimentaion”. Whcih I have always maintained, there were songs which would have never been made had there been no Kishore Kumar. Forget about “aake seedhi lagi” and all- which are definitely there- even a song like ” Chala jaat hoon” is impossible to imagine in any other singer’s voice in the same way.. He also transformed yoodelling as a mere form of happiness to an expression of romance in “Thandi hawa yeh chandni suhani”, an expression of grief in “She dino aakaashe chhilo koto tara” even lgnoring the complexity of them. Here Kishore stands out as an “experimentor”.
2. Also, owing to his vocal purity, Kishore was a singer who could pull of an orchestraless song with sheer attraction. A classic example is “Jin raaton ki bhor nahi hai” or much unknown “Bidhir bandhon kaatbe tumi” from Stayajit Ray’s Ghare Baaire. Here is the song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIMVrHSW4so
Look at the comments passed in the response section also. It amazed people how the resonance of his voice echoed to your ears without music.
3. Regarding your obesrvation of “straight singing” , Surajitda.. I give you another youtube clip here. very interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK9Uqk-8IV4
Both the songs were made around the same time with same tune- first one Indian and the other one Pakistani. Without going into the arguement which one is original or not, Surajitda, I would like to draw your attention here on the “gayaki” part of it.. While Kishore’s expressions and maneuvres remain straight but deep emotional, Muhammed sahab renders it with lots of harqats and making it convolutedly presented. Now, if you had given both the songs to a music lover in ,say, 1960, he would have definitely voted for the Pakistani one as a better rendition. Ask anyone today, maximum people would love the Kishore’s version. Kishore was ahead of his time, in terms of playback singing, as he and only he could grasp the requisites of a song from a pure playback point of view. His singing were straight but emotions and enactment were unparallelled.
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My sincere request to Vitthalji, Paramjeetji, Kishorefan, Raj and all.
It seems we are again back on the musical ground. Let us please forget that Bhagchandaniji episode. This is wasteage of time. I also got carried away. It looks frustrating when people try to act innocent as if they dont know anything. Anyways, leave it.
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Vitthalji,
Many greivances, many unknown and despicabe things come out when we talk about awards. There are always problems. Don’t think it was a cakewalk for Kishore also in the early seventies. He had to convert all the MDs, producers, directors, actors and above all the audience to be favourables when the same lot only a couple of years back were continously rejecting him. And it was hardly a matter of a few years, and not an entire generation, mind you… So, to speak of or to raise question on Kishore’s abilities is outrageous in my opinion.. I wont be talking of them too much here, I personally do not enjoy at all talking of industry politics. I respect and appreciate what you said.. But some things are better kept as it is. Thanks, sir..
Surajit Bose ji – 194 – Welcome sir,
Great thanks for your post – I fully agree with you sir, cent percent on all your views expressed therein. Kishore vs. Rafi, i admire the facts which you had put in a better way. The fact which you have stated, if kishore is heard correctly – yes indeed, the output would be always different. Another point sir, as i always stress on that is without being in the line of original classical singing, he developed attributes of a great singer. This itself shows the speciality of kishore. And similarly on mohd. rafi’s talents too, your points are well appreciated sir, Great.
Regarding Ghantasala vs. Rafi, I can say sir, you have again confirmed and vindicated the facts, already stated regarding ghantasala’s far reaching superiority over rafi (which rafi himself used to admit) & others, by other musicians in rafi forum mainly Vasu ji, Ramakrishna ji, Khan ji and you yourself (i have seen your nice posts in rafi forum) & here in kishore forum by sri vas ji as well as paramjeet ji (another musician who has been found out now) & arghya ji as well and more so the comments of established legends on ghantasala. Thanks again for the beautiful post sir.
Your honest, true and frank views are fully appreciated sir and there is no contradiction on any of the facts.
Regarding name calling and quarelling, it has been & is the case even today, mainly with some biased rafi fans sir, when some honest and true facts are presented, and which they are not able to digest. So nothing to bother about on that front. It has become a regular feature, more so in rafi forum.
bhagchandaniji, gunda gardi se hi logon ko gunda bola jata hai.. Aasaan si baat hai..zyada bhola mat baniye..
Hi,
There were some good discussions between Arghya ji, Vitthal ji, and Paramjeet ji that were spoiled by some quarreling and name calling.
Vitthal ji, regarding your posts 120 and 138, I am not sure I understand what you mean by melody factor. But if I understand you correctly, it could be that you mean that Kishore sings in a more “straightforward” way while Rafi has a more “classical” approach to singing.
In fact, I think that was the main reason why Rafi was preferred over Kishore and Manna Dey for many of the ’60’s songs. Because, though he didn’t have the classical training of Manna Dey, he had a better filmy voice and, because of his brief stint at classical music, his approach to singing, even normal songs, was like a classicist.
But, strictly talking about technical aspects, the first goal of classical training in vocal music is to achieve a high degree of voice control and develop a voice culture. By voice culture, I mean control over your vocal chords, your breath, and develop the technique of resonance by proper use of your diaphragm, your vocal and nasal cavities. Ornamentation by means of taans, aakars etc. are explored only after this has been achieved. And Kishore had successfully developed all these aspects of “classical” singing without any specific formal training. It is just that his songs are not “classical”. But most people are superficial listeners who do not pay attention to his singing. They pay more attention to the song. Nobody talks about his voice, his breath control, his ability to project, his techniques of resonance, his ability to switch notes etc.
While it is true that Rafi has ventured into more genres than Kishore, and there are some genres that Rafi would be better suited to than Kishore, one must also accept that Rafi had his limitations exposed a lot more than Kishore.
Rafi’s superiority over Kishore, to me, is mostly in the lingering alaaps (like in the beginning of “Madhuban mein radhika”), his “classical” approach to singing (this is more of a mindset than a technical skill), and his ability to sing in a very high scale. However, Kishore is superior to Rafi in songs where there is switching of notes within a short interval, in singing songs in the Mandra saptak (low pitch), and the genius factor that nobody else has.
To me, it is difficult to compare both technically. However, I agree that, in terms of artistic impact, Rafi ranks above Kishore. But this is, in no small part, due to the superlative music directors who graced HFM during the 50’s and 60’s.
About Ghantasala and Rafi, I heard quite a few songs from a gentleman named Pardus on the Rafi forum, and there is no question that Ghantasala is far superior, technically, to both Rafi and Manna Dey. Neither of them even come close to Ghantasala.
185 paramjeet ji –
Ha Ha ha (winners laugh in a secret way) – great post sir, – You are correct .
I think Bhagchandaniji’s games are over..
> First he came rushing to this side trashing some Kishore devotional songs to which he got technical answers and kept mum.
>Then he shouted at me and just when he could see he is sounding “too anti-Kishore” he somehow grabbed on to a okeyish Kishore song( yes, even I am saying that) from Mashooqa(perhaps, just thinking for the future that he can use this song to prove that even his most favourite kishore song is an average one) and tried to prove he loves Kishore. There also he got a befitting reply.
> He questioned on Salil Chowdhury’s regionalistic mentality. He again got technical and factual response. He could make out things were turning hostile.
>Suddeny, he found some support and again tried to poke his nose catching on some lines from Kishorefan on classical music. There also Paramjeet handled him with a fantastic analysis of classical music (each and every point lucidly presented). He again felt retreated as if decided not to come to this site again but just to keep a watch.
> Now, suddenly, he saw Kishorefan’s point and subsequesnt resposne from us on abusal of Kishore and thought “man, now I can grab on this”.. Alas, in the course of playing innocent he was himself not aware what mudslinging his colleagues had already made.
>So when they were presented, he somehow, in a hurried fashion tried to make a response desparately trying to fetch some loopholes which did not exist at all, wrote something too diluted.
> Now, when all are going against him, in order to twist and turn the things he is headstrong on two adjectives, knowing very well, how they were originated and under what circumstances.
This is a classic example of invasion for you, freinds. A case of deputation which has ended poorly.
Sorry, Bhagchandaniji, we would never abuse Rafi sahab, Naushad sahab, OP whomsoever.. They have all made our lives so beautiful.. We love Kishoreda, but we never ignore the amount of contribution these people had done to the industry. Be happy and live happily..
bhagchandaniji ka post 186 se ek baat yaad aati hai.
Twin tower udaane ke baad osama bin laden ne kaha tha’ humko atankavadi kyun bulaya jata hai’??
Hah..hah.. Bhagchandaniji, aap ko pata hai kyun?
Post 186..
Do you want the reason why those adjectives are used? Although I have explained in my last post, it really does not take that much of toil to ask Vitthalji..
Just go through the posts in http://www.mohdrafi.com in two articles:
1. Versatility- thy name is mohammed rafi.
2. The true voice.
Good enough to get your answers why that gang is called “hooliguns”. Dont try to convolute topics here. We have better jobs in hand.
Kishorefan: bro, please next time onwards, do not raise any issue going on in that Taalibani camp. I saw a person called HP just recently commenting that “Kishore used to shout on high scales”. Perhaps he has also not heard low note renditions of many people even if I consider his statement to be true. There are people who want to show down others to show up his legend.. And that Al Qaida of music is a classic example.
Post 183.
Sheer escapism. I exactly knew what would be the response and it fell in line exactly the same way.
Mr.Bhagchandani said : “Arghyaji, You do have tremendous talent in ‘copy-paste’ technique, dear”
No Sir, I don’t have. I am still a learner in front of Mr. P Halder- one of your colleagues, who is a master in that art. This is the first time I tried out this art..
Mr. Bhagchandani said: “There is no justification for any degrading words written by any one for any legend.”
Then why are you asking justifications to some questions raised by Kishorefan which did not even degrade a legend?
Mr. Bhagchandani said: “I did not say anytrhing against Salilda except that his comment on Rafisaab was in bad taste.”
I also find OP’s comment on Kishore in bad taste. Show me where I had said he had insulted the entire industry by those remarks? Or, forget me, show any fan here. In fact, a Rafi fan rather, called Manish, once asked OP’s intention behind commenting such things against Kishore. I only said “forget it”.
Mr. Bhagchandani said: “If you feel that such things should not be posted (or the language was too harsh), then at least you should have refrained from writing retaliatory note about Naushad. At least that would have established some credibility to your self-proclaimed quality of ‘decency’.”
Yes, Bhagchandaniji, this is in fact decency. I only said what Pritish Nandy had said in his blog. I never commented on Naushad sahab-although it also hurt me a lot- considering I am a Kishore fan-I am no one to verify the incident. The reason i said this is beacuse 99.99% Kishore fans had ignored that blog of a famous person. For them, it does not matter at all.. Because, at the end of the day, Kishore DID GET THE AWARD BACKED BY A BIGGER CLASSICAL MUSICIAN! It seems for you people it really matters very much as to what Salil had said as if to protect something which would get exposed if let the thing be kept in its place. My representation was in terms of our decency to musicians who opposed Kishore vis a vis your decency to musicians who opposed Rafi. You also know this very well. But you represented my comments again like an opportunist. Escapism, again!
Mr. Bhagchandani said: “As far as fans vs. fans is concerned… you find everything wrong in words ‘fourh grade detective’, ‘pagal chooha’, ‘joker’ etc. but nothing wrong in more deadly words ‘terrorist’, ‘goonda’ etc. Your mask is out dear.”
I knew you would tell this. But this is not my “special comments”. These adjectives are used for you people even by Ghantashala or Manna fans. Reasons? We have long explained. I am bored now.
By the way, there are good Rafi fans still there. When Binu was abusing Kishore and RD,(ridiculous comments like hoarse voice and trash music) there was a Rafi fan who raied his voice:
//manish Says:
September 22nd, 2009 at 10:05 pm
“voice of sholay”
iirc, the audio recording was messed up for that movie. sholay was supposed to have some special quality sound and the audio tapes were taken to london where the engineers screwed up .
“rd/salil did not like rafi – its a fact”
the more correct way to word it is that rd & salil liked other singers more. rd did not have active personal issues or an agenda against rafi. however rd was a human with his own opinions and tastes and liked to other singers better. this is not to say he did not like rafi. of course, in the industry all that matters is who you like more since you can have only one singer render your solo composition. i like to listen to rafi because he’s my favorite but that doesn’t mean i have anything against other singers. if i had my radio station, for a given month, i may play 70% songs of rafi & lata. so i am indirectly, through my taste, promoting rafi & lata over other singers. however, that is not my active intention. same with rd.//
Beautiful, Manish.. There has never been a better Rafian than you..
Or there is? Here is an equally good reply:
//Sid Says:
September 23rd, 2009 at 11:09 am
Manish:totally agree with you here. I do not hate kishore,asha or lata just because I listen to rafisaab the most.
If that were the case then naushad,sj, op, roshan etc all did not like kk //
I am always respectful to genuine Rafians who have the courage to call spade a spade..
Bhagchandaniji’s reply is very much in line with what I expected.. Escapism..
By the way, how did you find the comment on RDB, Bhagchandaniji? Real admirable for your side..Isn’t it?
Some things doctors should prescribe to avoid for the Rafians like Binu and co.-KK and RD are two of them- blood pressure raising agents.
Bhagchandani ji,
I fully subsribe to your views – demeaning terms should not be used by anybody.
But I also feel, that Arghya ji and Paramjeet ji have responded ONLY in response to similar comments of some rafi fans. They never started or used any words on their own. That’s all. Where is the problem here ? Moreover, you will yourself appreciate, for long discussions have been very smooth here. In fact, I really appreciate MYK ji in this regard, he is one of the persons who uses very decent language, though he has a straight views & personally he may not agree to other’s views. Of course everybody has a right of his own choice. Even sir, your views are also fully respected herein. But would you subscribe to my view, if you call kishore as greater in rafi forum ( as arghya ji asks) the response will be ………..
But here, even if somebody says rafi is great or even I have said (to be honest fully) ghantasala is greater, still how positively arghya ji and paramjeet ji have responded and fruitful discussions have followed. I hope you got the point sir.
Paramjeet ji,
When it comes to awards I know the bigger politics played in a nasty way ?
This is only a concern sharing discussion – Arghya ji and no meaning of offence to anybody pl.
Kishore kumar was not even given padmashri, many underrated talents have been given padmasri, you can find today people who have won padmasri in numerous numbers. What is the reason you know – pure politics.
Ghantasala was recommended directly the highest civilian award ( Padmavibhushan in those days) by A P Govt. in 60’s – the response was mohd. rafi is having padmasri – same will be given. C M Brahmananda reddy of AP had a fight with the centre stating that Rafi of Hindi is in no way comparable to ghantasala of south, but only padmasri was awarded to ghantasala. Perhaps this is the first instance of a CM fighting over a talented artist, in the history of the country. (This point had been told to my relative in 1972 personally by ghantasala himself).
P suseela of south, the incomparable lady talented singer of the south was not even given padmasri, like kishore kumar, but after long lobbying in 2008 ( I think ) she was awarded padmabhushan, the 3 rd highest civilian award. Surprisingly, SPB got padmasri in 2001 itself – god knows, how this happened when talents like p suseela did not get any award.
I am happy that Lata Mangeshkar, Manna dey and K J Yesudas have been duly recognised for their talents , I think with Bharat ratna (highest civilian award today) for lata & padmabhushan awards for others. Sadly, I feel, even today kishore had not been given any civilian award. Even my concern remains, the greatest talents rafi and ghantasala have got very lesser awards, more so in the latter’s case, despite strong recommendation.
Greatest music composers of India, such as Naushad, S D Burman etc. and S Rajeswara Rao & others from the south, had original incomparable gifted talents, but they are not remembered today or celebrated with much hype as is created for Mr A R Rehman today (no offence only an observation)
What do you say Arghya ji ?
Vitthalji,
What I was looking for is the equal condemnation of terms ‘terrorist’, ‘goonda’ etc. (used at this forum) from (at least) a balanced person like you. I have a straight question. Please restrict your reply to this only and for a change do not beat around the bush. The question is “Do you subscribe to these terms or not?”
And to remind you these terms have been used here without any provocation or instigation. It all started from posts 173, 175, 176 etc.
aur hum bhala kyun kuchh bole kisiko? Nuksaan kiska hua aakhir mein? Kishoreji ko mila na lata mangeshkar award? Koi rok paya? Nahi.
winner aur loser mein yehi to antar hai.. Loser chillate rehte hai aur winners chup chap baithke maze lete hai unke frustrations ka’ jaise main le raha hoon adarniya bhagchandaniji ka..
bhagchandaniji..
Yeh aapka naqab hai jo utar gaya hai..
Naushad sahab ko kisine boora nahi kaha.. Aap lof salilda ke comment pe unko gaali diye aur hum naushad sahab ki sachaai jaanke bhi chup rahe.. Woh ek mahan sangeetkar the aur rahenge.. Woh kishoreda ko support nahi kare to bhi..
Rahi baat Arghyaji ki,, aaj tak halti se ho sakta hai main kabhi kuchh bol diya ho’ magar jitna respectable arghyaji rahe hai, woh bhi itni saari bekaar baatein sunne ke baad haldar aur binu jaise lohon se, main unki culture aur ethics ko abhivadan deta hoon..
Aur yeh gundagardi ki baatein hum nahi bol rahe hai janab, yeh poori duniya aap un 15-20 logon ke baare mein sochti hai. Ghar jaiye aur aaraam karke wahan pe kaam pe lagiye.. Aaj kumar gandharvaji ka bhi to chatni pakana hai aap logon ko…
Arghyaji, You do have tremendous talent in ‘copy-paste’ technique, dear. There is no justification for any degrading words written by any one for any legend. I did not say anytrhing against Salilda except that his comment on Rafisaab was in bad taste. If you feel that such things should not be posted (or the language was too harsh), then at least you should have refrained from writing retaliatory note about Naushad. At least that would have established some credibility to your self-proclaimed quality of ‘decency’. As far as fans vs. fans is concerned… you find everything wrong in words ‘fourh grade detective’, ‘pagal chooha’, ‘joker’ etc. but nothing wrong in more deadly words ‘terrorist’, ‘goonda’ etc. Your mask is out dear.
Bhagchandani ji,
Arghya ji is 100% correct. As a balanced rafi fan, I fully agree with him that one should use gentle language to convey his views and it should not hurt any individual. Not to offend anybody.
In your message on Kishore fan ji, I have not found anything which is hurting to any body – he has expressed his views which can be easily replied to (if the respondent wants to reply and not stating facts such as I need not reply to you etc. )
I too have seen that so called some people who call themselves as die hard rafi fans – themselves do not agree to the facts and practises which the great rafi had adhered to – a big surprise – how they can call themselves true rafi fans. One example is of Sri MYK ji himself addressed to kishore fan here saying that please do not quote statements such as rafi praised ghantasala many times and ghantasala did not praise rafi. If such a statement is made by kishore fan (which is true in fact ) why it is not agreed to by Mr. MYK when it is a fact, why to abuse kishore fan. What will Mr. MYK lose if he agrees to the true fact – does it lead to underestimating rafi ? In fact it shows that they do not even agree to statements made by rafi himself but call themselves as rafi fans. This shows that the thinking is why should kishore fans’s statement should be agreed to even if it is honestly true. A great question mark. Even I have agreed and respected to all of MYK ji ‘s views as I believe them as correct, but surprisingly has he agreed to my views (sorry the views by established legends repeated by me with evidences) Ref. my post 171 which has not been responded. What does this show – they know the facts are true but are not agreed openly since the prejudice factor of ‘surrendering to the facts’ (there is no other option) comes in between. Any how no issues.
Similarly for nadkarni ji, (he is presently not here – so my excuses) when Arghya ji had asked certain LOGICAL questions to Nadkarni ji, it was a sheer escapism ( AND MOST SURPRISINGLY BINU NAIR JI AND OTHERS STARTED SUPPORTING HIM) and Arghya ji was ridiculed and wrong language was used against him. Even One Mr, Padmanabhan of Hyderabad rafi foundation chapter, a real rafi fan, had supported Arghya in this regard.
Now, I have seen kishore fan ji’s post here, true, in Mohd. rafi with other playback singers col. Binu nair in one of the immediate previous posts has used the word to one kishore fan – mind your language or else….. what does this mean. He is the leader of the rafi foundation and claims as a true rafi fan. True, he is, but what is this intolerant attitude towards others.
THE GREAT MOHD. RAFI HAD A GREAT ACCEPTANCE, COMPLETE PRAISE AND BEAUTIFUL TOLERANCE FOR OTHER INCOMPARABLE TALENTS OF THE COUNTRY VIZ., GHANTASALA & OTHERS SUCH AS KISHORE KUMAR, MANNA DEY ETC. SADLY, VERY SADLY SUCH ACCEPTANCE FACTOR IS ZERO AND THE TOLERANCE FACTOR IS PRACTICALLY ZERO IN SOME OF THE SO CALLED DIE HARD RAFI FANS. EVEN THE GREAT RAFI’S STATEMENTS/ PRACTICES ARE NOT AGREED TO BY THEM – INDEED VERY VERY SURPRISING.
And ohh Bhagchandaniji, how could I miss this classic one.
It came from an individual called B Venkatadri I suppose. as a response to kishorefan.
What did Kishorefan say?
“P Haldar you are the man! I LOVE the choice for the photo – so funny! The Rafi-Jaikishan combination is the best of the best!”
Now, this gentleman, I dont know what he interpreted, owing to lack of many skills, replied in a classic way like his colleagues:
“…I do not know which photo KF found funny, but I do indeed find that photo featuring RDB extremely funny! Look at RDB’s face in that photo! Doesn’t it look like the face of a drunken, drugged, insane, unpredictable, inconsistent man who, if alive now, could suddenly proclaim that any upstart of today is better than Rafi !…”
What a language and how much frustration.. You expect people to greet them with garlands, Bhagchandaniji, with so much of uncouth language to a legend like Rahul Dev Burman..
No doubt media would interpret you the way Paramjeet has mentioned.. No doubt.
I also remember on 31st July, Times of India published an article on Kishore’s views on Rafi.. it contained all the good words by Kishore on Rafi which should make Rafi fans happy! But they again started abusing, and these are some classic reasons:
* Why there is a photo of Kishore Kumar?? It is our farsihta’s anniversary, TOI people are cheap to put the photo of Kishore in stead of Rafi sahab.
* A “learned” gentleman said- “May I ask, what is the big deal if Kishore praised Rafi sahab.. Why to publish it with so much of publicity? A mediocre singer like Kishore should praise the greatest singer in the universe..
This discussions took place in a Rafi community in a social networking site.. And I just laughed.. Laughed wholeheartedly after a long long time since i had watched “Half Ticket”..
Very Nice Topic Arghya Ji..This Is Another Side Of Kishore Da Which Is Always Underrated.
I Like These Bhajan Based Songs – “Dekho O Deewano…Raam Ka Naam(Hare Rama Hare Krishna)”,”Geeton Mein Meri Ganga Ki Dhara(Geet Ganga)”,”Ek Roop Kayi Naam(Swami Dada)”,”Prem Ka Rog Laga(Do Premi)”…..
Another Bengali Film Song May Be Come Under Kishore Da’s Devotional Songs,Which Is – O O Ma Patita Pawani Gange(Harish Chandra Saiva)..The Song Is Composed By Great Ravindra Jaina Ji.
All These Songs Guru Sang So Nicely It Touch Our Heart After Hearing These Song One Time Only!….
Bhagchandaniji,
1. Language is a sign of culture. If I feel that Talat Mehmood is no competition to Mohd. Rafi, I should put in a decent language my opinion, because as a respectable citizen, it is my responsibility not to hurt the image of Talat Mehmood(even if, say,I give a damn to his fans). Language is the first sign of people’s mentality and culture. Let us not put it in garbage.
2. What was degrading in Kishore fans post by the way? Bhagchandaniji? If he says that no one remembers Rafi then you should contradict giving examples of hundreds of people who swear by Rafi’s name! It is indeed a point for you to prove that yes, Rafi is remembered! but what can you say about this comment?
//binu nair Says:
October 10th, 2009 at 8:32 am
Post 199….
Kishore ji ke “atma” ko dukh dene ke waaste ek baar phir yeh paagal chooha yahan par aa gaya hai.//
or
//unknow Says:
October 15th, 2009 at 4:22 am
As you know that KK changed his name and became a Muslim because a girl so shame.//
Is it musical?
or
//binu nair Says:
September 17th, 2009 at 9:27 am
HALDAR SAAHEB ; The Third grade journalist and the Fourth grade pvt.detective can only do one thing when cornered. they will vanish from this site for some time like the four legged animal – hiding their tails.//
Binu Nair talks about me? Why? Because I had asked a person on his authenticity as a musican when he was abusing Salil Chowdhury and R D Burman. And no, I did not vanish, Bhagchandaniji. I did not get my answer from the horses’ mouth, but got this response when i pasted the entire list of musicians under Pancham from his long time associates.
//Mr Sandeep Nadkarni Says:
September 21st, 2009 at 2:33 pm
under these circumstances I request all the dear fans & admirers of Rafi Saab to totally avoid this bug as rightly suggested by Mr Haldar Saab. I am definitely sure that this joker Arghya is one of the most frustrated lot, importantly very jealous and above all the certified crook who has presently gone either mad or has been recently discharged from a mental hospital.
Further it is also evident from his continued comments that he has absolutely no work at his disposal at present and is trying to just time pass or is showing off his cultured smartness to all of us. We are already having plenty of such jokers in this world around and with Arghya we have one more added to the list of jokers.
The best and the simple way is to keep quiet, observe and ultimately sprinkle the required spray to flush out these poisonous mosquitoes to where they actually belong and as rightly said by me earlier “Arghya jare jare jakar gande nale mein pehle apna kala mooh dhoke aa”//
And lastly this classic one from you:
//J.K. Bhagchandani Says:
September 12th, 2009 at 10:44 pm
In one sentence Salil has insulted not only our Rafi saab but also almost entire music fraternity of the golden era of Indian film music, and that is unacceptable. Salilda is no more. It pains me to say such harsh words about him. But he had said something that has prompted these harsh words.//
Waah, Bhagchandaniji, waah.. Only because Salil did not say goody goody words to Rafi, he is insulting the whole music industry??
Do you know what did Naushad do? When Kishore was nominated for Lata Mangeshkar award, he was the first to start playing politics so that Kishore did not get that. Pritish Nandy has himself revealed that in his blog on 4th of August 2009. And do you know why still Kishore got it? Because, someone bigger than Naushad had supported Kishore as a jury- Shri Kumar Gandharva!! What do you say? Naushad insulting the whole music industry?? Has anyone ever from Kishore fans ever insulted Naushad or OP Nayyar here??
Dont act like wimps, sir..
I have not yet posted the comments made by people like Binu or Haldar to knowledgable Hindustani vocalists in your forum.. Utterly uncouth and despicable language..
You call Kishore fans “pagal chuha” because they go to Rafi site and say Kishore is great?? What should I call you here then?
Post 175 & 176: I strongly protest and disagree with gentleman calling the ‘other forum’ as ‘hooligan adda’ and to Rafi fans as ‘gundas’ and ‘terrorists’. Please mind your language, gentlemen. What about those who deliberately come there to instigate this. One your Mr. Kishorefan recently sent a post there, part of which is reproduced below:
“…….but I have never heard anybody praising or remembering rafi to the extent some rafi fans are projecting here. Excepting few die hard rafi fans (that too mainly old generation people) rafi is not remembered by many today. I have seen even old generation people, who grew up listening to rafi songs, not showing any interest today towards rafi songs. They will say, how many times we will listen the same song, I have heard it many times.”
This is also another form of gundagardi, unleashed through sophisticated language. So please refrain from all this non-sense.
Kishore da was a very versatile singer. How efficiently he used to sing a song,
that level of perfection is not found in today’s music. Kishore da sung in the era when digital multitrack system of recording was not introduced and still he sounds so perfect and accurate. It touches my heart while listening to his songs especially when he suddenly goes from a lower pitch to a higher pitch in his songs , for example in “Hum Bewafa “.He is still alive in our hearts through his melodies.
kishorefan bhai..
Un gundo ka naam mat lo yahan par.. Binu nair aur haldaar sangeet ke naam pe jo atankvaad faila rakhe hai us mein nuksaan rafi sahab ka hi hai.,,
Pichhle 4th August mein mera ek dost jo media mein hai kishoreda ke janamdin pe coverage kar raha tha(us din kaafi saare program aate hai media pe poore din bhar).. usne baaton baaton mein bola bhai rafi fans itne violent hote hai, hum chahe to bhi rafi sahab ko project karne se darte hai… Agar unki pasand ke mutabek kuchh na chala to gali galoj pe aa jayenge..
Kishorefan 173.
The less we talk about that forum is better. As one of my close friend and music analyst puts it as a hooligun adda. Let us not at all concentrate. They pretend to be musical admirers but cannot talk on musical grounds too long..lolz.. So, lets not lose our breath. I rather feel proud for fans like you or paramjeet who can give pranams to Rafi fans even in a Kishore forum.. Even my utter respect to Rafi fans like Vitthalji, Manish etc. I have vocally very loudly expressed many times in this forum also.
Ignore them.. I have not seen that forum. But I can guess what must be going on.. Someone must have said Kishore is better than Rafi, and in stead of technically replying it they have started foul mouthing that person and Kishore also..
Just let them bark, I am not at all bothered.
Arghya ji,
Again Binu nair ji is shouting at kishore fans for saying kishore as a great singer – same language see the other forum – (Article mohd. rafii with other male singers)
Arghya ji,
Again war of words is going on in other forum. Now the discussion is on sonu nigam & again as usual kishore vs. rafi & sonu fans are at receiving end. (Mohd. rafi with other male singers and music after rafi articles.) Anyhow regarding sonu, I feel in today’s industry and circumstances he is doing well, though he cannot be compared to the erswhile legends of the golden era of indian playback singing.
Thanks for your list of kishore songs on devanand.
Paramjeet ji, – a nice post in kishore songs on devanand.
Contd.. from my previous post..
Sorry to miss out Shareef Badmash(1973)- 3 songs.
That takes the tally to 111 songs.
167 – MYK Ji,
Thanks for your post. I respect your views sir. Please do not take things personally, as there is nothing against you. Your views are fully respected and I expect the same from you only because of the reason that I have put across the facts which were stated by established legends and musicians, including playback singers. I am not qualified much to comment on my own. So if you think I am arguing, I feel it is incorrect please. I have always respected your views, but I feel (pl. do not take otherwise) it is the other way from you since I feel you are arguing against facts stated by established legends. (i have respected your views of established legends stated by you, but have you agreed similarly) I again agree with your views fully, if one prefers a civic over mercedes, fine, no issues. Everybody has his own preference. Anyhow, nothing to take personal. It was a nice interaction with you sir, Thanks for the post and please have a nice life sir. All the best MYK JI.
Kishore fan – 153,
Nee madhu murali of ghantasala (i am not much aware of the raga – but as you state I take it has hamir kalyani – neither I know the raga of Madhuban me radhika nache re – but I think the notes in both the songs sound similar, so both might be in same raga). It is a Short semi classical rendering but master rendering of ghantasala. Thanks for the link kishore fan ji. It was nice to hear the song.
The only difference between madhuban me and the telugu song, according to me, is the telugu one is overall much faster
in taans as well as swaras and is quite comfortably rendered even in speed, (as is always expected from ghantasala with ease) whereas the hindi one is slower in rendition and rendered nicely by rafi ji . Anyhow, both songs are nice to hear. Regarding technical competencies, I cannot comment. I like both the songs. This is one of the rafi ji songs I prefer most in his semi classical renditions.
Paramjeet,
It is not even 3- it is 2 in seventies! One each from Rafi in Gambler(1971) and Jaaneman(1975)- thatz all.. The only other song where Kishore did not playback was again a Rafi one in Manpasand(1981)- the song was “Logon ka dil”.. But that was eighties and not seventies..
The list of films in which and number of songs which Kishore sang for Dev Anand are:
Ziddi(1948)- 2 songs
Baazi(1951)- 1 song
Jaal(1952)- 1 song
Humsafar(1953)- 2 songs
Taxi Driver(1954)- 1 song
Munim Ji(1955)- 2 songs
House No. 44(1955)- 1 song.
Funtoosh(1956)- 5 songs
Nau do Gyarah(1957)- 2 songs
Paying Guest(1957)- 4 songs
Teen Deviyan(1965)- 4 songs
Guide(1965)- 1 song
Jewel Thief(1967)- 2 songs
Duniya(1968)- 1 song
Mahal(1969)- 3 songs
Prem Pujari(1970)- 3 songs
Johny Mera Naam(1970)- 3 songs
Gambler(1971)- 4 songs
Tere Mere Sapne(1971)- 2 songs
Hare Rama Hare Krishna(1971)- 3 songs
Banarasi Babu(1972)- 3 songs
Yeh Gulistaan Humara(1972)- 2 songs
Heera Panna(1973)- 4 songs
Joshila(1973)- 3 songs
Chhupa Rustam(1973)- 4 songs
Aamir Garib(1974)- 5 songs
Ishq Ishq Ishq(1974)- 5 songs
Prem Shahstra(1974)- 3 songs
Jaaneman(1975)- 2 songs
Warrant(1975)- 3 songs
Bullet(1976)- 2 songs
Kala Baaz(1977)- 3 songs
Sahib Bahadur(1977)- 4 songs
Des Pardes(1978)-4 songs
Darling Darling(1978)- 3 songs
Manpasand(1981)- 3 songs
Swami Dada(1982)- 3 songs
Loot Maar(1982)- 2 songs
Anand aur Anand(1984)- 2 songs
Hum Naujawan(1985)- 1 song.
Total 108 songs together in an association spanned for 37 years..
This is the longest most association in Hindi film industry (in terms of period) between an actor and a singer.
kishorefan,
aapne jo films ka naam mention kiya hai woh saare dev anand ke hai. Is baare mein bataunga, dev anand ka screen image building ke peechhe sabse bada yogdaan kishoreda ka tha.
Dev anand ka romantic avtaar pehli baar silver screen mein establish hua Munim ji ka behetareen geet ‘Jeevan ke safar mein rahi’ se.. Fir Paying Guest ka ‘ chhod do aanchal’ us zamane mein yuva premiyon ke liye ek anthem sa ban gaya.. Nau Do Gyarah ka ‘Hum hai rahi pyar ke’ aaj bhi Dev sahab ke signature gaano mein se hai.. Aur Funtoosh ka woh great song ‘Dukhi man mere’ ko kaun bhool sakta hai..
Sixties mein Dev sahab ke filmon mein zyadatar kishoreda ka role duet geeton pe raha.. Gata rahe mera dil, Aasmaan ke neeche, Dooriyan nazdikiyan ban gayi, Yeh duniyawale poochhenge, Likha hai teri aankhon mein etc. Solos mein magar ‘yeh dil na hota bechara’ aur ‘ khwab ho tum ya koi haqeeqat’ kaun bhula sakta hai..
Seventies mein Dev ke liye kishore hi kishore the.. Balki sirf teen(3) gaane chhodke poore dashak mein Dev sahab ke saare gaane Kishoreda ne gaaye.. Dil aaj shayar hai, phoolon ke rang se, phoolon ka taaron ka , dekho o deewano,Main aaya hoon leke saaz, jaaneman jaaneman, palbhar ke liye koi humein, panna ki tamanna hai, rahi tha main awara, gori gori gaaon ki gori re, nazrana bheja kisine pyar ka jaise gaane dev sahab ka evergreen image ko barkaraar rakha..
eighties mein bhi Kishoreda ne dev sahab ke liye gaye.. Magar Manpasand aur Swami Dada ke chand kuchh gaane chhodke baaki gaane kuchh khaas nahi the..
Ek bahut hi lamba aur shaandaar combo raha hai kishoreda aur dev sahab ka.
Another final comment by me on the subject (someone should note down the amount of senseless comments by others here):
In this particular case, by all-rounder, I meant a singer who was a “master” at various genres, not just anyone who could do anything in that segment. Quoting Sachin Tendulkar and Brett Lee in the same sentence shows the inadequate knowledge level of some folks here. Tendulkar is not a master bowler, nor fielder, only a master batsman, hence the example is bogus. Rafi although a film singer, mastered many genres, hence the term ‘all-rounder’ for him (in this case).
Vitthal,
How are my statements contradictory ?. Yes, Kishore and Ghantasala can’t be compared, each had their own strengths, yet I prefer Kishore over Ghantasala. It’s like saying a Mercedes cannot be compared to a Honda Civic in class, yet if one prefers a Civic, how are they contradicting anything ?. It’s all about personal likes, tastes etc. I think the only thing contradictory is your (and your friends) false alleagations at posts which do not agree with your views. I think it is you and others who conveniently change your statements when it suits you. This is the reason why I don’t like discussing music with individuals who can’t understand clear statements right away and waste time by nit-picking at things (besides various other reasons).
Anyways, as I have maintained, to each his own. If you have a problem, take it up elsewhere.
Arghya ji & paramjeet ji,
Have you heard the hamir kalyani raga song by ghantasala ji in my post 153 ? I await your views on that song.
Paramjeet ji,
Puri tara se sehmat hai aapke sat yodelling – kishore is kishore, no further issue on that. Manna dey was a singer in his own range. Rafi too was good in classical renditions but was limited in his own range. Whereas ghantasala ji is ahead of all in classical renditions.
Akash Bhara surya tara is a simple but appealing song of kishore. At 1:48 he sings kaaa… 4 notes are appealing. A quiet comfortable rendering of kishore da. Raag to apko hi batana padega bhai, hum aapke jitna musical expert nahi hai. Surajit bhai or lalit ji ko pucho na.
Paramjeet ji, apne mere prashna ka jawab nahi diya – kishore ke kuch film ke gane maine pichle post me likha tha.
Kishorefan,
It seems you have a problem with Rafi fans in general. I suggest you take those issues up elsewhere instead of knocking your head against the wall. I don’t think knowledgeable Rafi fans claim he is the best in every genre (as many fans of other singers do). I think those who do so are extreme fans (which exist in every group). However, Rafi was a master of “many” genres, and was a true ‘all-rounder’. I am not repying to your posts which are figments of your imagination because I already have in the past, and its a waste of time to do so again (not because I can’t, and I’ve already made that clear). Anyways, my interaction with you is over, have a nice life.
Arghya, I mentioned the MSTA Rafi song not in response to the ‘Siva Sankari’ by Ghantasala, but just an example of Rafi executing taans in a great way. Thanks for your comments brother.
150- A S Murthy garu,
You are perfectly correct in your post. The only point of conflict is the biased point of some biased rafians – that rafi is best/greatest in every genre. Then the point comes for argument who is the greatest in different genres. You agree with the truth. Surprising thing is that without rendering difficult genres also some are saying so and so is greatest and claim that if he has not rendered, he has not got the opportunity to do so.
Kishore fan ji – 100% correct – Sachin tendulkar though considered an all rounder, cannot bowl even to the extent of 50% of Bret lee, the greatest bowler in the world today. As an all rounder, Claiming tendulkar as best in each form of cricket will be a senseless argument. Hope your message is correctly taken by people.
Arghya ji,
I agree with your views. Many forums kishore kumar is also mentioned. I had already stated earlier, rafi and kishore are more popular than others, perhaps by virtue of their association with the national stage of bollywood.
Kishorefan bhai..
Yoodelling mein mujhe lagta hai ‘piya piya piya’ gaane mein interlude mein kishoreda jo yoodelling lete hai woh kamaal ka hai.. Aur jhumroo ka title song, woh bhi kaafi zabardast yoodelling hai.. Baaki bhi bahut saare hai ‘yeh shaam mastani’, ‘tum bin jaaon kaha’, chala jata hoo kisi ki dhun mein’, ‘yeh dil na hota’, ‘thandi hawa yeh chandni suhani’ sabhi bahut hi sophisticated yoodelling hai.
Mujhe Rafi sahab ke classical gaane manna ji ke baad second favourite lagta hai.. Rafi sahab achhe the classical mein koi shaq nahi.. Alankaar unke kaafi achhe the.
Waise maine abhi ‘ akash bhara surya tara’ suna 1986 ke ravindrasangeet album se.. Sun lena kishorefan bhai, bahut hi akarshak gaana hai.. Kaun sa raga hai samajh nahi pa raha hoon, language problem bhi hai.. Sunke batana thoda..
Vitthalji post 159.
There is no surprise to the fact that Rafi sahab is mentioned in Yesuji or SPB’s sites..They are the two living legends in south indian singing and they consider Rafi sahab as their idol..
It is something like if Kumar Sanu becomes a legend, say after 20 years,
(which I sincerely doubt, but you never know after his Padmashree..lol..ignore the pun), in his sites Kishore would be mentioned and compared by his fans. Same for Shankar Mahadevan or Adnan Sami( a voice which I think in recent times came closest to that punch and aesthetics of Kishore Kumar voice,almost made people nostalgic of Kishore again, only Sami was a bad bad playback).. In the sites of many singers of present day, Kishore is mentioned and compared. Of course, SPB and Yesu are much much more accomplished singers than them, but I am talking of the tendency part of it. Kishore is also compared many a times with Saigal, although out of 40 years of his career, he sounded like Saigal for only 2 years!!
Thanks Myk for your response.. As I had said these are my views or rather observations. Nothing much to take home in this.
Sincere thanks to all the people who are discussing in a good spirit and coming out with valid and good technical points. Sincere thanks to Paramjeet for making difficult things understand in plain and lucid language. Only if you can type in English, dear friend, it would have been easier..lolz.
Arghya ji, paramjeet ji, kishore fan ji and others,
Pl. leave the off the track discussions now as they lead to nowhere. In fact our line of musical discussions have lost track by entering into arguments with …….. rafi fans. Indeed surprising, they have succeeded again in creating a bottleneck hear, when lively discussions were going on. By the way, I will come back to you on other kishore songs.
Paramjeet sir,
I never knew you had so much knowledge in music. Really, you are also in the line of Mr. Surajit bose, Srivas ji, Lalit Ji and others here. We have another musician here. When musicians praise kishore or others, I am surprised why people with limited music knowledge start interfering.
A S Murthy sir,
Thanks for your post, which was interesting.
Murthy sir,
Thanks for your post here. I dont think anyone is arguing here for who is the best amongst them or at least I am not.. My only intention is to explore different qualities in Kishore, primarily, which gets shadowed sometimes.. Ghantashalaji is also not very known to me, so, I took Vitthalji as a mean to know that singer more and I have been impressed to the maximum extent in his classical renditions.. A soothing effect much comparable to Kishore’s philosophical songs or Rafi’s devotional songs a listener gets. Regarding arguements, I think constructive criticism is not bad as long as the topic does not get diluted and dignity is maintained in the forum.
Sorry MYK ji to differ you on two major points.
1. In your post 1018 in rafi vs kishore discussion in the other forum you say kishore is not even similar to ghantasala, comparing both is funny, but here you say kishore is more appealing – contradictory statement pl. I think kishore fan is correct, that you change facts at convenient intervals.
2. Rafi is never mentioned in ghantasala site (he may have been mentioned in spb or jesudas site) There is no necessity for rafi to find a place there, because ghantasala fans know what ghantasala is & what rafi is. This is what rafi is thought about in ghantasala website : (see entire article)
http://www.ghantasala.info/theman/scit-post.html
Paramjeet 149 and 151.
I see ur post 151 was posted at 1:20 am midnight!!! Hats off to you brother for being so passionate about this topic.
yes, I was also a bit surprised when Myk mentioned Nache man mora to compare with Siva Sankari in the taan aspect.. I dont think apart from “Ketaki gulaab juhi” any other classical Hindi film song can compete that much with the sophistication and complexity of Rasika Raja and Siva Sankari. Your observations are much appreciated here. That shows you as a music knowledgable which you did not reveal before. Good spirit, I must say.
Your post 151 is also a very valid answer. Surajit da had also said this that classical singing is first creating a voice base and then ornamentation. I think Rafi and Kishore had a distinct edge over each other in these two parts.. Good point raised. Also, you are right, that since the first part was taken care of well by Kishore, many ragas sounded sweet and controlled in his voice even without ornamentation. Very nice views by you, indeed.
Keep it up..
My heartiest thansk to you and Kishorefan..
152- Mr. MYK
Whoever praises any other singer as greater than rafi – that person becomes ……… according to you, what a interpretation. Is this a balanced view. You have not responded still to any of the queries in earlier posts, because you cannot, that is clear, Pl. do not try to post some stories such as I need not reply to you or something else. (moreover I do not see any ghantasala fans here – many are kishore fans or rafi fans discussion about ghantasala here – another wrong interpretation by you ) I repeat – to each his own (but to know with honesty the truth – that is all) – Good bye and wish you all the best MYK sir.
Sachin tendulkar is all rounder, if you argue he can bowl better
than Bret lee, what would one have to say ? no body can say
anything.
A S Murthy saab,
Thanks for your message murthy saab, Your points are well taken and are quite constructive. Each legend is greater in his own way. But this kind of discussion with Mr. MYK had to take place, because Arghya ji as he stated, rafi fans consider him to be best in each and every genre – is this a correct discussion.
I repeat.
Sachin tendulkar is all rounder, if you say he can bowl better than Bret lee, what would one have to say ? no body can say anything.
sorry paramjeet ji, in my previous post
It is not gaata rahe mera dil but Yeh dil na hota bechara from jewel thief by kishore – sorry for the mistake.
paramjeet bhai,
Another point, Yodelling – a very interesting discussion, There are many long yodellings of kishore ji – even beginning of gaata rahe mera dil, zindagi ek safar hai suhana, & very little effect yodellings like panch rupaya baraah aana in chalti kanam gadi etc. everything is fine. We can say all of kishore yodellings are fine and THINK NO PLAYBACK SINGER CAN SING YODELLINGS AS EFFECTIVELY AS KISHORE.
post 146- Bhagchandani ji,
contd.. to my previous post, sorry sir I missed you there.
Thanks for your appreciations. You are right and I feel You would really appreciate my views on classical singing as well.
THE POINT IS KISHORE THOUGH NOT MUCH QUALIFIED TECHNICALLY AS A CLASSICAL MUSICIAN, HE RENDERED MANY GREAT RENDITIONS (KINDLY SEE MY PREVIOUS MESSAGE TO PARAMJEET JI) THAT IS GREATNESS OF KISHORE. RAFI’S RENDITIONS OF CLASSICAL SONGS TOO I HAVE COVERED IN THE POST. RAFI IS ONE OF MY FAVOURITES AS WELL DEAR SIR.
Paramjeet bhai, – post 149
I have no words to praise you. You are 100% correct. SIVA SANKARI OF GHANTASALA IS THE GREATEST EVER CLASSICAL SONG IN INDIAN PLAYBACK SINGING. THE RANGE, 3 OCTAVES, MIND BLOWING TAANS, SPEED, HIGHEST PITCH, TOUGHEST MUSICAL NOTES, EVERYTHING BEYOND COMPARISON IS PRESENT IN THAT. RAFI FANS NEVER DISCUSS ABOUT THIS SONG BECAUSE THEY KNOW 1000% THAT RAFI HAS NOT EVEN RENDERED EVEN TO THE EXTENT OF 50% OF RANGE OF SUCH CLASSICAL RENDITIONS AND THEY START COMPARING WITH ESTABLISHED LEGENDS.
This song was much much accalimed by one Mr. Khan, a hindusthani classical musician in post 611 in true voice col. of mohd rafi.com. Binu nair and others were totally taken aback by this praise of Mr. Khan – consequently he was slowly asked to get out of that forum. No doubt, parmajeetji, rafi fans very well know limitations of rafi, but they have no other option, but to simply find some facts to support rafi in one or other way. Even rafi would not agree to that, as Mr. Vitthal ji, stated that rafi had full praise for ghantasala ji many times. Post 133 of Vithal Ji and post 141, 143, 145 of mine – no replies have been received yet from any rafi fans – including MYK – since they have no replies for those questions which are genuine.
There was another song posted by Mr. Vitthal ji for ghantasala i.e. rasika raja in previous posts which is another classical masterpiece like siva sankari. I feel ghantasala might have rendered many more renditions like this.
ANYHOW WE KNOW THE TRUTH, LET US KEEP THE TOPIC APART NOW (AS WE KNOW THE TRUTH WHOSE TALENT IS WHAT) AND START DISCUSSING ABOUT KISHORE JI’S SONGS.
The songs mentioned by your earlier, I have heard paramjeet ji, in fact I was fortunate enough to hear kishore ji’s first song which was somewhat sounding similar to saigal. But kishore song had more attraction than saigal.
Paramjeet bhai, what is your opinion on the song Mere umar ke now jawano from film karz (om shanti om) the song which became much famous during 80’s. What about the songs from Funtoosh, amar prem, Nau Do Gyarah , Paying Guest , Guide, Jewel Thief , Prem Pujari , and Tere Mere Sapne. These were the films wherein I find kishore ji very attractive.
YOU KNOW KISHORE KUMAR WAS A PROLIFIC VOCALIST AND SANG IN MANY INDIAN LANGUAGES INCLUDING HINDI, BENGALI, MARATHI, ASSAMESE, GUJARATI, KANNADA, BHOJPURI, MALAYALAM, ORIYA ETC. WITHOUT BEING TECHNICALLY MUCH TALENTED SEE THE POTENTIAL OF KISHORE JI. HE WAS REALLY GREAT.
COMING TO RAFI’S CLASSICAL SONGS ; Surajit Bose bhai had stated that Madhuban me radhika nache re, in hamir kalyani rag should have been rendered more effectively, if you go by the qualities of that rag. This question, I had indeed also raised with one of ghantasala fans (as he was classically much accomplished singer) and I had received a response that there is one famous telugu song known as Nee Madhu Murali of ghantasala in hamir kalyani raga and to know how effectively the raga is sung, one should listen to the song of ghantasala. I have heard the song paramjeet ji, another classical masterpiece apart. (ghantasala sings with a rocket speed the swaras which appear quite majestic) Here is the link for the song in hamir kalyani raga by ghantasala. what do you say on this ?
http://www.dishant.com/album/Bhakta-Jayadeva.html
Anyhow, keeping musical technicalities apart, Naushad composition of Madhuban me radhika nache re, is a class song in its own range and which is appreciated by many. Even I admire the song and which is probably one of my favourite rafi ji’s songs. Rafi is fine in classical songs in his range, (though not near ghantasala) even other songs man mora bawra, I think from hindusthani point of view, rafi is fine in those renditions. But I like madhuban me radhika nache re in rafi’s classical songs.
Kishorefan,
The very fact that you mentioned my name here shows how insecure you are. Don’t try and twist anything around. I’m not going to bother replying to your posts because you are going around the bush again and again. If you can’t understand my posts then I am not going to explain them to you. This topic has been beaten to death, I am surprised you are still undertaking a lost cause. Kudos to you for knocking your head against the wall about something that cannot be changed. It doesn’t matter what other members of this forum have said about Rafi/Ghantasala/KK, they are not an authority on the subject, nor are you and me. I have stated my views so many times based on facts, (not things such as Rafi mentioned Ghantasala but Ghantasala never mentioned Rafi so therefore Ghantasala is greater) which is nonsense, or other immateur arguments. The very fact that I mentioned personalities praising Rafi was one part of it, but definitely there is more to Rafi’s greatness than that. Praise coming from those steeped in music means a lot, than coming from any person (unless they are knowledgeable in music). Rafi’s greatness involves a lot of factors.
Your points 1-7 don’t prove anything, hence there is no scope for a logical discussion. I find it hailarious that you think Ghantasala is in the same league as Rafi (vis a vis genres or anything else). I am aware of Ghantasala’s repertoire and songs and don’t need you to tell me anything. I don’t think you are aware that much about Rafi and his unmatched greatness (that countless number of people attest to). I don’t find your views balanced at all.
If you want, we can take this discussion offline (as I have mentioned before), but I guess you know that you will get no where if we do have a discussion offline, since the points you raise have (and will be again) broken a part. This is a beaten to death topic, and this is not the place for such a discussion (I am surprised it was even discussed on the Rafi forum when Ghantasala fans barged in there) with fans like you who repeat the same illogical remarks, there can be no room for a great discussion.
The reason why I do not want to engage in a discussion with you is because it won’t do me any good. I prefer knowledgeable individuals who argue with logic, not with subjectivity. Also, we have been around the same path before, so why take it up again ?. That is the only reason, nothing more, nothing less. It is very clear, who’s posts are full of it, and who’s are not.
I will consider the rests of your posts as ‘yawn’ material (putting me to sleep). As I said, I would not like to respond further, I only did because you mentioned me. Please do not mention my name any further, unless you have something constructive to say. I have not taken your name other than in discussions with you, therefore I expect you to do the same.
I consider Ghantasala a great singer, but definitely not better than Rafi. Kishore also appeals to me more than Ghantasala. These are my views and I stick to them. If you have different views, and don’t agree with what I write (just as I don’t agree with what you write), then we agree to disagree. I don’t have anything against you personally, but it is you who brought up my name here.
To each his own.
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Arghya brother,
I have seen many fan groups (and fans in general) compare their favourites to Rafi. If you go to Tamil/Telegu/Malayalam fan sites of SPB/Ghantasala/Yesudas, you will see Rafi come up there. The same is for other singers such as Mukesh/Talat/Kishore etc.
As you know, Ghantasala fans came to the Rafi site and wrote about him when it was uncalled for. Now it seems they have found a nesting place here.
I think Rafi fans don’t have anything to prove, yet are involved in discussions with others because they are forced to reply unnecessary comments. On the other hand there are extreme-minded Rafi fans too (but that is the same with every singer group).
Bhagchandaniji, post 146
Yeh baat hum pehle bhi discuss kar chuke hai is forum mein, shstriya sangeet ka arth sirf alankaar hi nahi hai balki pehle ek galla taiyar karna hai ek tarah ki voice culture jisme ‘nada’ shudh ho, ‘prana’ sahi ho aur sur ka ‘pakad’ mazboot ho. Iske baad alankarik cheezein jaise alaap, taan, murki etc. se sangeet ko sajaya jaata hai.
Kishore aur Rafi ki tulna agar aap sirf classical mein kare to main aur mujhse kaafi bade diggajon ka bhi yeh maan na hai , definitely Rafi sahab ka alankarik part Kishoreda se behetar tha magar fundamentals of shastriya sangeet, yani ki, ‘manodharma’, ‘nada’, ‘prana’ ityadi sabhi buniyadi hisson mein Kishoreda aage the.
Aap ko kaisa lagta hai pata nahi, magar yeh baat sahi hai, alankarik gyan na hote hue bhi Kishoreda ki awaz mein kaafi saare raga bahut hi akarshak lagte the jaise ke bhairavi, khambaj, kalavati, yaman aur shivranjani.. In saare raagon mein jo voice texture chahiye hota hai woh aap ko Kishoreda ki awaaz mein milega.
bhagchandaniji, isi liye shastriya gayakon mein bhi aap dekhiyega ek division hai rafi aur kishore ko leke.. Alankarik hisson pe mahatva denewale log rafi ko prefer karte hai magar awaaz ki shudhta pe mahatva denewale log kishore ko.
Ghantashalaji ko classical mein khaali isi liye greatest nahi bolte Bhagchandaniji ke woh alankarik shakhaon pe master the, bal ki isi liye bhi ki unki bhi awaaz ki buniyad kaafi had tak kishoreda ke awaaz se milta tha aur awaaz ki gehraai ke saath alankaar milaane se Ghantashalaji ke classical gaano ka akarshan bahut hi manoram hua karta hai.