An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
© Copyrighted to Yoodleeyoo.com All Rights Reserved.
February 24th, 2010 at 11:40 am
Paramjeet ji,
Bahut sundar message aapka. Particularly the following para of yours in the previous post is indeed LAUDABLE.
“Ek suggestion hai, jaise aap Rafi ke criticism nahi jhel sakte theek usi tarah kishore, saigal, ghantashala tatha anya gayakon ke fans bhi apne apne idols ke baare mein bekaar ki baatein nahi sun na pasand karte hai. Yeh sandesh apne mitron tak pahooncha dijiyega krupaya…
Aur yahan pe hum sabhi gayakon ko sanman deke hi baat kar rahe the. Agar apmaan kahi se shuru hua to woh bin bulaye kuchh Rafi fans se hi hua hai. ”
Let us leave apart these issues and continue with our discussions.
Paramjeet and Arghya ji,
Srivas ji had responded in divine voice with reference to kishore kumar’s talent in musical scores. It was a interesting post. Have you seen it ?
R V Murthy ji,
Vitthal ji is another music lover who enlightened us about ghantasala and I request you to please read the discussions between myself, Arghya, paramjeet, satyansh, srivas etc. with vitthal ji, in this thread and also in the divine voice thread wherein many interesting posts have been made.
February 24th, 2010 at 1:13 am
Arghya,
I have read those arguments by others with great interest, and I am not of that view/opinion, as are my friends, who are also trained in Hindustani (and Carnatic) classical music. IMHO one does not have to have a minutest following of Kishore’s singing to realize that he was not cut out for that genre. To each his own.
Paramjeet, I am not sure what comments you are reading, or what sources you have, but I have never ever mixed religion with music anywhere. Have you mixed religion with music ?. Can you please clarify ?. I’d like it if you don’t ask me questions about topics I have not written about or come anywhere near.
Also in the future, I’d pefer it if you write in English, and if for any reason you are unable to, then I believe any interaction between us cannot go forward.
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:10 pm
Satyansh, Vithal Sir, Arghya, Paramjeet, et. al.: Thanks for your support. It means a lot to me.
@Rafi fan: (regarding ji, sir, sahab, etc)
Its nice that you have put your opinion here. However, it has happened many times, both here and mohdrafi.com that sometimes we addressed somebody in singular, and later came to know that they were way too elder in age. It may not embrass you, but many of us do get embrassed after knowing that. Moreover, if you believe its “fake”, its harmless fake after all
In the same gesture, there is no way I can address Anil Cherian in singular. Of course, even he has ALWAYS reciprocrated kindly all the time not just towards me, but countless many others who are kind of junior than him. I will never ever forget the way he called a certain Parth on orkut as “Kidbro”. This has got nothing to do with Internet, its the way it should be with Indians and will never be forgotten. So even if I and Anil will argue endlessly over many things, the RESPECT will always be there for him.
Of course, many at mohdrafi.com are way too senior and elder for us to not address them with respect. Notwithstanding this respect we put our opinion clearly though
Btw, its really ironical that in this INTERNET ERA, you call yourself a fan of Rafi, when strictly speaking you should be fan of “BYTES” as you may have not really heard Rafi either on LP records or cassettes
February 23rd, 2010 at 11:00 pm
Paramjeet saab,
Aapke message sundar dikhte hai.
Magar ek baat kehna chahata hoon aap se idhar, Rafi and kishore are the singers who stole hearts of many many people spanning generations, it is really sad to see people fighting here over both singers, really it is a sad development. It is really very difficult to get singers of that calibre for generations.
Aapkon ek baat mein badhayi dena chahata hoon ki, aapne aur arghya saab ne bade dil se southern music ke bare me acchi tara se baatchit ki hai, aap jaise sundar sangeet premiyon ko mera shubhkamnayein. Another man is satyansh saab, who too discusses greatly about singers, specially kishore kumar and saigal and whose posts have made really interesting to read.
Post 1712 - R V Murthy saab,
Ghantasala, What a range and voice. His modulations are superhuman. Classical songs which you have given the link - shiva shankari and rasika raja - he takes one to heavens that is all I can say. Never heard such great songs in films by any singer - true from my heart comes this comment.
Remaining songs are all lovely songs - the melodious duet is great, the solo romantic ragamayee rave - yes yes very very difficult to sing, but the singer sings quite easily.
The devotional dinakara subhakara- woh, I was literally carried away by the song and the taans he had executed easily.
Such magnificient singer as great as ghantasala is not known to punjabi people at all, even it is difficult to believe if such singer has ever existed.
SPB is famous among southern singers, as he has sung in hindi cinemas as well. By the way did ghantasala ji sing any hindi song murthy saab?
All the north people are mainly fans of rafi and kishore in majority and literally rafi and kishore are the only singers for the north people as they do not have much knowledge in southern music and its great singers. And it is not a exagerration to say that many people in the north will never believe that any singer can exist greater than rafi or kishore. But sure, ghantasala appears to be such a singer who can be called a “dhruva tara” in playback singing . It would be really interesting to know if he has sung any hindi song, and if so, the relevant links may please be shared here.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:56 pm
@R V Murthy Sir: I think I have not properly worded my post for Vithal sir. This post is not a reply, rather its a question. I am just expressing my views about PBS, and what I feel about the way certain singers are unnecessarily labeled as “limited” singers. Its this way.
Assume that all the eleven players in a team are all-rounders. In that case there will be not much thrill as even after 5 wickets that team can comfortably chase down 8 runs per over for over 20-30 overs. Similarly, if all the pieces of chess were queens, there would be monotonicity. However, a detailed follower of the chess game never underestimates even the importance of a SIMPLE pawn even in favor of the powerful queen. This is how more or less everything is about music too. I really apologise for being preachy.
Let us ask ourself why should PBS or Mukesh be able to sing variety of songs? Range? Etc?
Back to PBS. To the best of what I know, PBS was more successful in Kannada than in telugu. I had two HMV cassettes of his and there was enough variation in that songs of different genres were there, and each was sung perfectly
. Please give your opinion of this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oARTj-15baA
For me, the emotions, expressions, etc are complete in this song. As I said some posts back, see this version of SPB http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ocfGhVCPbQ Though the spb version is not bad, it does not come close with PBS version. Thus, my overall opinion is that though all-rounders are good, we require specialized players too
If there are still doubts, I would like to clarify them.
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:33 pm
paramjeet,
i’m perfectly tolerant of the criticism for rafi. so i don’t know what you mean when you say i can’t bear to hear the criticism of rafi that i may for others. there are songs of his that i’m not particularly fond of. a good example is yamma yamma yamma with asha. o i know that the scene required some cacophony for fun and rafi was acting it out (rather than singing) but i didn’t like it. big deal - you can’t always please everyone. i’m fully aware, that rafi, like any other singer, had his shortcomings. i have no problem accepting the truth or the reality. but he was still the greatest
i don’t have much criticism for the other singers. they were great. it’s just that rafi was the greatest 
arghya,
i don’t think i was being edgy but i’ll take your word. rafi’s classical limitation is something that some kishore fans just love to beat to death and use it as their premise. they keep repeatng it ad nauseum and speaking as if this is some novel discovery that was not mentioned before but more importantly they speak of it without regard for its limited relevance (limited indeed, despite the fundamental nature of rudimentary classical training which rafi was qualified for).
RV Murthy,
i had heard all those songs you posted. yes, my post was subjective as a lot of music is. ghantasala has a very deep voice to the point that it overshadows, for most of the time, whatever sweetness or velvet smooth quality he has in his voice. i know this is subjective and hard to interpret (and bear for a big fan of any singer) so i don’t blame you. i think of kishore in “mere samne wali khidkhi mein”. his voice here is velvet smooth and sweet. that outstanding song posted by arghya, “ami chini go chini” - his voice & expressions are out of the world. these songs were from 1968 and 1964 respectively. than kishore, when he is older (to be fair to him), in the 80s, sings those songs again. by then, his voice isn’t as it was but more so it has become very deep. the deep voice just overshadows the original sweetness & velvet that a younger kishore kumar had. a 60s kishore kumar, like rafi, had a voice that was the perfect balance of a voice not too deep but not too light either. of course, ghantasala’s deep voice had its unique advantages (so he loses in some but wins in cases like this). i listen to those ghantasala songs and they just don’t have the same natural nuances and richness of voice that rafi’s fun songs have. purely my opinion. i’m happy with your music, i’m happy with mine. we’re both happy. ghantasala is versatile (as is rafi) but rafi is far superior in romantic and fun songs than ghantasala. ghantasala is superior when it comes to very technical songs (and his deep voice lets him enunciate).
suhana safar (1970)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbhK0uOtcGY
kishore’s ami chini go chini
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyAUJ_RE_4Y
i love this yesudas, fun, romantic song from salil choudhury’s choti si baat. this is what i have in mind when i sing rafi’s praise for a velvet, sweet voice that is fun and with natural nuances.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o6bD5EutOQ&feature=related
February 23rd, 2010 at 4:05 pm
Balarykar,
I think Mr. Vitthal is correct in one way. P B Srinivas is good, but I have never seen PBS singing any songs in the extreme high pitches and octaves, which ghantasala comfortably takes.
See no offence - my point is the range of voice of PBS was such that it cannot go to a wider range. His voice was built like that. Naturally, high pitch/octave songs cannot be effectively rendered in such voice. Similarly, (i am talking of his telugu songs only - not kannada, as I have not heard them) the expression wise, for e.g. tragic or comedy or sentimental, the degree of expressions certainly are to a lesser degree. For e.g. if you take yeh nimishaaniki of ghantasala from lava kusa (an emotional rendering with beautiful expressions) or even SPB rendering Sankara song (with good roudra devotion expressions) PBS range was certainly limited (in my view based upon telugu songs of PBS) and I am yet to hear PBS taking such emotional expression ranges. I request you to kindly enlighten us with respect to any songs of above ranges in the voice of PBS and it will be interesting to hear. Yes, PBS is one of the sweet voices in his own way among the southern singers and is nice to hear.
In Hindi rafi could sing high pitches nicely and as you referred again same case with mukesh, and in my view mukesh range was similar to PBS, and I am yet to hear any mukesh songs where he had taken good high pitches as that of mohd. rafi.
Mukesh, PBS etc. are nice, but if you consider above factors, the limited range statement appears correct in my view.
February 23rd, 2010 at 4:04 pm
Rafi fan sahab,
Jab aap khud maante hai ki Rafi classically professional nahi the aur unki gayaki ko ek film playback singer ke hisaab se hi lena chahiye to thoda aap ke colleagues jaise Anil, Myk, Rafibhakt ko bhi thoda yehi baat samjha dijiyega.
Aaap ka itna shor shoraba fuzool ka hai. Arghyaji kuchh aur bole aur aap kuchh alag track pe hi awaaz laga rahe hai.
Ek suggestion hai, jaise aap Rafi ke criticism nahi jhel sakte theek usi tarah kishore, saigal, ghantashala tatha anya gayakon ke fans bhi apne apne idols ke baare mein bekaar ki baatein nahi sun na pasand karte hai. Yeh sandesh apne mitron tak pahooncha dijiyega krupaya…
Aur yahan pe hum sabhi gayakon ko sanman deke hi baat kar rahe the. Agar apmaan kahi se shuru hua to woh bin bulaye kuchh Rafi fans se hi hua hai.
Dhani Ram sahab research mein lag gaye lagta hai saigal ke upar?
Myk pehle yeh to bataao aap ne kaise music ke saath religion mix kiya tha aur kyun?
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:56 am
@Vithal ji: Is it not so easy to say certain singers have limited range? I saw some comments on the limited range of the great P.B. Srinivas. For any music fan who has followed PBS will hardly ever comment on that limited range. Why should it really matter if PBS has limited range? I request one and all to listen to the PBS songs that I have posted here. If he takes us to heaven in the songs that he has sung, what is there really to complain or point out the “other” shortcomings? Yes, PBS is so great in the songs that he has sung that I never think of Ghantasaala or SPB rendering them. Thats really good enough. PBS was original and did a great justice to the songs given to him and that is what really matters.
Let me bring a few songs of PBS. The way he has rendered “Iluda baa thaayi illuda baa” is so extra-ordinary that when SPB sung the same on some show (good though it was), one could help but miss PBS. This limited range is really meaningless for most of the great singers. Ditto I can vouch for Mukesh
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:13 am
Rafi fan, - 1708
Largely subjective post, on one side you admit ghantasala’s superiority and versatality, and another side you put the rafi wagon again - completely not clear.
I wholly disagree with you when you say ghantasala’s voice was not velvet. I am sure you have not heard his melodious songs which have a velvet melodious touch. (I request you to please visit ghantasala.info and hear the songs pasted there in, you will get what I have stated) You are correct, his voice had great depth, consistently very clear and his songs are very hard to sing and to replicate. This is because, his mastery over technique of his style of singing was altogether different and attractive (which he developed on his own). You just try to sing one ghantasala song and you will see how difficult it will be to replicate.
You were mentioning about fun songs. Please hear this fun song (Which Mr. Satyansh was referring here)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0uW8RGCkZc&feature=related
These melodious songs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLt8TQppsw0&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEQHfH812fs&feature=related
Classical filmy exemplaries
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvg3dZ2r7Xg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Zi5Cxu4Gc&feature=related
Just try to sing this song, romantic solo how difficult it will be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th5Yh73c1Rc
Devotional (just see the command over music, modulation levels and comfort)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux49blEXTds&feature=related
Rafi fan ji, just hear the above and give your views. I admire your post and your regard for rafi as well.
thanks.
February 23rd, 2010 at 6:56 am
Rafi fan 1710.
Dont get so edgy over things
.. My comment was to Mr. anil who was trashing Kishore and hailing Rafi and bringing classical music in the context. Look at the response a SPB fan-Prabhanjan Balyrkar- has given to him. I could have also got edgy on Anil’s comments(like you got on mine), which were insulting in a mild way to the cadre of a singer of Kishore, but there lies a small difference again 
..
Myk,
A lot of elongated sessions on this was done by Surajit, Srivas, Lalithji, Satyansh etc. who are trained in Hindustani classical music, in this forum many times. You may please revisit them. I hold many of their opinions same. The reason I will not carry off this discussion here is beacuse it requires a minutest of following of Kishore Kumar singing which I doubt many of other singers’ fans have(except Satyansh).
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:57 pm
“For Rafi, he definitely caught the melody of a classical song very well, but ornamentation wise”
of the 5000+ songs rafi sang, how many were classical? how many of his signature, great, watershed songs from the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 1980, are limited by this astute point of yours? i agree that a a weakness is a weakness (irrespective of quantity). but you do need to consider its impact which imo was very little in the songs that we love rafi. this still did not stop rafi from being in my opinion the most successful and versatile male singer of india. critics of rafi just love to beat to death and talk about rafi’s classical singing as if they think he was classical singer. he was a playback singer for films and his technical skills were not the limiting factor. rafi’s critics go so far as to laughably suggest he had even a slight struggle to sing “jaanu meri jaan”. laughable indeed! singers have preferenes in how they wish to sing a song. that’s not a weakness. anyway, rafi’s critics try to characterize rafi’s fans (fair enough, a lot of points are valid). rafi’s critics are just obsessed with distorted propoganda of overemphasing the impact of rafi’s limits to technical perfection in classical singing. i don’t say this out of spite but more out of amused observation & an attempt to play the game of characterizing people in these debates (which is ever popular).
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:56 pm
Arghya,
Ofcourse views will differ from individual to individual. I agree that a vocalist is more qualified to comment on another vocalist, however at the same time, praise from others in the music field (or steeped in music) is also be considered great. My point about Pandit Ghosh and Rafi recently was in response to Kishorefan-ji’s comments in reference to my earlier comments about the same thing. I had mentioned Pandit’s comments about Rafi (in the past) vis a vis Rafi’s classical abilities.
You mentioned:
“Yes, of course, still Rafi fans hold an edge, as they have that authority(obtained by virtue of being Rafians) to trash all other Hindustani musicians who dont consider Rafi to be their favourites (including Joshi sahab)”
I know many fans of other singers who practice exactly what you mentioned, including many Kishore fans. I personally feel that this is wrong, and uncalled for, but one should not just label Rafi fans for the above when it is prevalent across various fan groups.
At the same time, in reference to your other point, IMHO I don’t find any features of classical singing (or a classical singer) in Kishore’s songs of that genre, that I do when Manna, Rafi, Ghantasala, Yesudas etc. sing classical songs. I don’t think any of the above singers had any question marks when it comes to classical songs and singing, whereas I feel Kishore was simply not cut out for that genre. You are ofcourse free to disagree with me, which I know you will
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:49 pm
i have heard ghantasala’s bhaghavad gita. i enjoy rafi’s bhajans better. rafi’s voice is sweeter (subjective) and velvet smooth (not as subjective). ghantasala has a deep voice that is not nearly as velvet smooth as rafi’s (or yesudas’) but the deep voice has its advantage that his enunciations are especially highlighted. for the most part rafi sings very clearly but especially during his later years he was inconsistent with his clarity. ghantasala, due to his voice, was always consistently clear. so they have their advantages / disadvantages but i value rafi’s advantages more. it’s fair to say i have heard a limited number of ghantasala’s songs and that these things are a matter of opinion (so if someone feels otherwise and enjoys his music - great).
a lot of ghantasala’s songs scream out and indicate they are hard to sing. his fans like that. a lot of rafi’s fun songs don’t scream out that way and so it’s easy to take for granted what he’s doing. i’m now sounding like a kishore kumar fan trying to defend kishore’s “mein hoon jhumroo” vs rafi’s “o duniya ke rakhwale”. rafi was just very well rounded - he possessed some of the best traits of each of the six singers. no he was not a god. he had his flaws. he could be bested in certain areas. but overall, he was the best and without a doubt the most successful singer with the greatest impact in indian music (with the possible exception of lata mangeshkar). no matter how you dice it, that sets him apart.
i don’t care what famous people have to say when it comes to opinion. such debates are futile. i hate speculation ghantasala’s voice was better suited for the music in the south. even if he was born a hindi speaker, he would not have reached the success of rafi in hfm. the same holds for rafi if he were in the south industry. i watched one of ghantasala’s “fun songs”. there’s a masked man who dances around a girl near the train tracks. it was energetic and i admire ghantasala’s versatility. it just didn’t have the same fun as rafi in say, “thoda ruk jayi” from patanga. all opinions i know. ghantasala was best for his classical type songs. i commend his versatility but rafi was better throughout the wider spectrum like fun or romantic songs.
finally, don’t mind my comment but i’m not a big fan of this ji, sahab, sir, bhai, etc. that’s fake formality that sounds especially fake on the internet. people are so focused onto the ji, sahab, bhai, etc. they spend more time with that and fake etiquette & sentiments that they don’t get to the point.
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:31 pm
Kishorefan-ji,
You have a valid point. I am not sure if Pandit-ji heard Ghantasala or not, however, that does not take away from Ghantasala’s greatness in any way. Ghantasala was excellent in semi-classical songs, he was one of the best in that genre, no doubt.
With regards to SPB and his comments, I have been witness to SPB mentioning about Rafi’s unmatched greatness (in general and vis a vis others) many a times, that I would not take those recent comments as the final word.
I don’t think any singer is pefect, however if there was ever one who was closest to perfection, then IMHO it is Rafi. Ofcourse we all have our own different views, tastes, likes, dislikes, etc.
Cheers
February 22nd, 2010 at 4:22 pm
Next, Anil
Even SPB failed in rendering padyams. P B Sreenivas is next great singer, who could sing padyams nicely to certain extent. But as Srivas Ji puts it, PBS range of voice and expressions were limited. Apart from that, PBS is a sweet singer down south.
The Bhagavad Geetha of Ghantasala is a mixture of sanskrit slokas and padyam skills, hence it is incomparable. I have seen, anybody who hears it, has been carried away by the rendition.
In the south Jayachandran and Sounderrajan too were left back in time being overtaken by others. K J Yesudas could shine only in malayalam and I do not find any major contribution of KJY in telugu (similar to ghantasala’s contribution in malayalam which I have to agree). But, yes agreed, in the 80’s and 90’s SPB and KJY have established themselves as popular singers in the south, but my point again is that to my knowledge, (Perhaps I may stand corrected by Paramjeet or Arghya ji) in their respective fields, only three singers in india passed away when they were at their peak and unsurpassable at the time of their death and whose popularity continues to mesmerise generations till date even after decades of their passing away. (the same status is not enjoyed by any other singer till date in my view). This certainly counts for their greatness factor. (Rafi was not unsurpassable in 1980 unlike 60’s, as kishore was much popular, I have to agree even as a rafi fan)
The three singers are Ghantasala, Saigal and Kishore Kumar.
What do you say Satyansh ji ?
February 22nd, 2010 at 4:10 pm
In continuation to my last posts’s last point to Myk:
Pandit Jasraj is a die hard Rafi fan and always maintain Rafi to be his favourite. Amongst other legendary Hindustani vocalists, their preferences for Cine Playbackers are as diversified as they are. Bhimsen Joshi and Ajay Chakraborty maintain Kishore Kumar as their most favourite singer.
Amongst musicians(not vocalists), as Myk said, G P Ghosh finds Rafi to be the best. Pt. Shivkumar Sharma is also inclined towards Rafi. Pt. Ronu Mukherjee is a declared Kishore Kumar fan. Pt. Ravi Shankar- the greatest musican India has produced in 20th Century, votes for Lata and (surprisingly) Mukesh!!!
So, you can see, even amongst legends, how diversified their choices of singers are. Yes, of course, still Rafi fans hold an edge, as they have that authority(obtained by virtue of being Rafians) to trash all other Hindustani musicians who dont consider Rafi to be their favourites (including Joshi sahab)
February 22nd, 2010 at 4:00 pm
Came to this forum after quite some time due to busy schedule of a project.
Paramjeet,
Thanks a lot for putting your points so beautifully here. Thanks a lot. I hope Dhani Ram would come out with something to the point pertaining to your questions rather than gabbling around for which Rafians are known for.
Balyrkar,
Thanks Prabhanjan again for putting your points so well. Your points to “She-manatics” as well as to that of Anil are very clarified dignified and takes nothing away from you being a true Rafi fan, which thanks to our developed rapport, I know so well. I dont know any die hard SPB fan apart from you, but amongst Rafi fans you are definitely one of the best ones who can raise voice about such shameful acts of his own colleagues. Cheers to you!
)..
You were suppoes to share some songs of Ramakrishnaji with me.. Awaiting them eagerly(as I am free now, and both of us had our own individual blasts on 21st
Satyansh,
You are really lucky that you had an amicable conversation with Dhani Ram earlier. I personally have never seen him anytime commenting anything other than dismissive abstract subjective remarks.
Rafi fanatics,
Problem arrives when at the cost of praising(or over-praising) Rafi, one tends to demean others. And in this forum, the comments of Rafibhakt were altogether redundant and started with an intention to create controversy when things were under nice and amicable condition. Then the post of Dhani at 1683 was absolutely ill informed and distasteful on Saigal. When he got under pressure, he started gabbling around again(as rightly pointed out by Paramjeet) and started deviating the topic with beauty contest stories( Rafians are definitely better story tellers than fans of any other singer
).. Red herrings at their best! I hope the well knit points of Paramjeet are well answered.
Anil,
The whole point was on Rafi maniacs. And you told to leave that point aside and talked on eveything which were not the part of anguish of anyone!
A little more deep reading(and understanding the crux of a conversation) would be highly appreciated. For Rafi, he definitely caught the melody of a classical song very well, but ornamentation wise, his capabilities are very much questionable in relativeness. For Kishore, yes, he did not have any “on your face classical songs”, but all the features of classical singing(and more importantly, of a classical singer) are all there in Kishore’s songs(and singing). Detail discussion can always be carried out.
Myk,
Pandit Ajay Chakraborty is a die hard fan of Kishore Kumar. Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh is a legendary Tabalchi and Pt. Chakraborty is a legendary vocalist. I wont say anything more on this any further. By the way,if it is absolutely necessary to give references (or, certifications) for Rafi with respect to classical singing, IMHO, it would be better to quote Pandit Jasraj than Ghosh Babu. A vocalist can certify another vocalist the best.
February 22nd, 2010 at 3:50 pm
Satyansh ji,
Many thanks for your warm response. I am aware that many rafi fans know very well about ghantasala and his versatile range across various genres (including the rafi bhakt here) and the songs which you mentioned - sad and comedy genres of ghantasala have also been heard by those people. I know that. So, thanks again for your warm advise.
Kishore fan,
You have hit the mark. As a hinduthani musician, rafi did justice to semiclassical hindi film renditions, but for sure, You cannot certainly call them as greatest, when you discuss specially with reference to ghantasala’s classical and semiclassical skills, which are way ahead of rafi’s skills. See, the telugu industry is different altogether, encompassing in itself a stylish exemplary genres such as padyams (where ghantasala was master) and other genres , which for sure, where even rafi had literally failed.
I have repeated this point many times. Again I am putting it for rafians (specially)
One point rafi fans must note that almost all of the telugu songs of rafi are copy of his hindi songs tunes only (WHICH RAFI HAD ALREADY SUNG IN HINDI) and RAFI HAS NOT SUNG ANY EXEMPLARY ORIGINAL TELUGU COMPOSITION UNDER ANY OF THE GREATEST TELUGU MUSIC DIRECTORS, WHICH IF HE HAD ATTEMPTED WOULD HAVE SURELY FAILED DUE TO THE TECHNICALITIES AND SPECIALISATIONS INVOLVED THEREIN, that is why, personally, I never count rafi’s telugu songs for any comparison with any of the telugu counterparts. As my friend Balarykar says Sure, even P B sreenivas of the south sounds nice in telugu and kannada genres when compared to rafi’s renditions in these languages. So as singers, comparison between both can be made only from the view of their playback singing skills in their respective languages, (wherein both were great ) and if you take the “artistic, musician” factor as a whole, ghantasala easily surpasses rafi on all counts in that area. There is no doubt about this.
As Satyansh ji says, this comparison factor arose in mohd rafi.com only because, a big propoganda was going on such as that true voice, superhuman voice, universal voice etc. was possessed by rafi, whereas, as Balarykar ji says that many legends existed who were altogether specially specialised and were incomparable in their own fields, which when come for comparison factor, even the great rafi or others cannot compensate.
Balarykar - wonderful posts by you, please accept my congratulations on the beautiful analysis made by you - a balanced presentation.
Anil,
Yesudas is a great singer, I have heard his classical compositions as well his filmy classical compositions as well. But, sure, you know that yesudas has limitations in rendering padyams and sanskrit slokas as compared to ghantasala, and it is a known fact that yesudas too literally failed in these areas in telugu in early 70’s - Sri krishna satya film and Yesudas had to make an exit from telugu field, when he tried there at that time.
Ghantasala sang in malayalam films only in 50’s (and sang in kannada and tamil upto mid 60’s) and those songs are great hits (you are aware) and if posssible, I will try to share the link with you shortly for those songs.
to be contd…
February 22nd, 2010 at 10:39 am
Myk ji
Thanks for your post. Nothing against you as well. What I meant was when you were quoting the word “greatest exponent” (might be pandit ji’s view) it gives a indirect meaning towards other greats. I had asked you one question in this regard earlier which you did not reply ? I am again repeating that and this was in context with discussion on vitthal ji’s post. The question was, whether pandit ji had heard ghantasala or not before commenting on rafi and if pandit ji had heard ghantasala (as he alone is widely reckoned as a classical filmy great) what would have been his opinion ? If pandit ji had not heard ghantasala, then his view on rafi is completely incomplete and upon which one cannot conclude that rafi is greatest exponent. This was my question for which you had not replied. (Kindly do not interpret this as comparison again between legends)
By the way, you might have seen many recent posts, where in one post it is stated that even recently SPB had commented that rafi could not have sung a song as effectively as he did. What do you say on that ? Incidentally, in the same post it is also mentioned that SPB never says such statements about ghantasala (whom SPB knows quite more than rafi, as SPB was associated/learnt playback singing from him). This was confirmed by none other than SPB fans and Rafi fans themselves and the event was only in December, 2009.
What I wanted to convey is that even rafi fans have stated some limitations of rafi, where is the question of all rounder, greatest exponent etc. and Mr. Balarykar in his recent post quotes this point only and nothing else.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:34 am
Balarykar/Prabhanjan,
shamenatic - lol. I also liked the use of “blah-ability”. You summarized the problem with Rafi-fanatics (Rafi-shamenatics) very well. They deride other singers/legends and attempt to create a bloated view of Rafi who they claim has a “superhuman range”, “universal” voice, “true” voice, etc. - there is a long list of ridiculous notions being propogated.
Dhaniram ji,
Respectfully, your statements/arguments in Post 1683 were not justified at all. It seemed as if you were engaging in Saigal-bashing, which I’ve never witnessed in my life. I realize you must have had an interesting few days since in the same timeframe around Feb 15 you were having a not-so-pleasant discussion viz-a-viz Pakistani singers on mohdrafi.com. You presented a perspective on Pakistani film music and I’d love to hear more from you on the same. Personally love Pakistani Punjabi music a lot too and agree with your view on HFM v/s PFM during the timeframe that you discussed. I believe we have engaged in courteous discussions earlier, so even though you have indicated that you are quitting, I welcome you again to talk to all on this forum on HFM. Paramjeet is a very knowledgeable person and I’m sure if you keep differences of opinion aside and continue a healthy debate there is something all of us can take from the exchange of information.
Paramjeet ji,
Bahut badhiya sawaal kiye aapne.
Kishorefan ji / Raj ji,
Why waste time addressing a person who brought religion into music on several occasions? Let him yawn - lol.
Rafibhakt,
While you do acknowledge Ghantasala’s superiority over Rafi in classical/semi-classical numbers, you should also listen to 2 more songs Vithal ji had shared - first a sad song and second a funny one. They are from completely different genres and Ghantasala’s rendition made them very enjoyable even for a person who doesn’t understand the language.
Vithal ji, If you know what songs I am talking about, please share the links again. The comedy one went something like “Sundari Neevanti Divya Swaroopam” and the sad one “Bommanu ..[something]si… Pranam ..[something]si…” - sorry I can’t remember the lyrics.