The Divine Voice of Devotional Kishore
by Arghya Dutta Kishore Kumar is considered to be a “versatile genius” with so many outstanding facets of his artistic personality. If overall as an artist, Kishore is versatile, only in singing domain he is a “versatile singer” in a true nature. Right from romantic to sad to soulful to motivating to semi-classical to qawwali […]
by Arghya Dutta
Kishore Kumar is considered to be a “versatile genius” with so many outstanding facets of his artistic personality. If overall as an artist, Kishore is versatile, only in singing domain he is a “versatile singer” in a true nature. Right from romantic to sad to soulful to motivating to semi-classical to qawwali to patriotic and to ghazals, Kishore had shown his tremendous variety in his god-given voice each and every time he had stood behind the microphone.
Here we discuss, yet another interesting genre of songs from Kishoreda – devotional songs – where he, as always, did tremendous perfection in singing, although he remained underrated always.
Kishoreda’s first true devotional song was “Leela Aparampar prabhuji teri leela aparampar” which he sang in the movie, Humsafar(1953). The song was composed by the maestro Ustad Ali Akbar Khan sahib. The song requires extensive voice modulation and Kishore sang the song with great feeling. The antara where he goes up with “ O neele ambar pe basaria, teri jay jaykaar…,” the feeling touches hearts.
Next came the classic “Haal tujhe apni duniya ka nazar to aata hoga” from Asha(1957). Composed by one of Kishore’s earliest admirers, C Ramchandra, the song is different, as now, Kishore is complaining to the Almighty for all the misdoingd on planet earth. His voice carries the grief and complaint and very “open throated”.. with “ Maalik tu bhi isko banaake ab pachhtata hoga…” truly depicts a person’s disappointment which he keeps in front of the god,,,
One of my most favourite devotional song from Kishore was in Door Gagan Ki Chhaon Mein(1964)- a song which he himself composed and sang alongwith Manna De. The song “O jag ke rakhwale humein tujh bin kaun sambhaale” is very soulful and touches heart immediately with the divine tune.. Manna starts the song with chorus and Kishore enters very late and immediately leaves a heavy impact with “Kiya sab kuchh tere hawaale, o jag ke rakhwale”.. Manna reportedly praised Kishore openly for the composition as well as the rendition… Shows again, the genius of that man- Kishore Kumar!
Kishore sang many devotional songs in the 70s, when he was on the top spot in playback singing. Chhoti Bahu(1971) saw Kishore rendering “Hey re kanhaiya, kisko kahega tu maiyya..” composed by his long time associates Kalyanji-Anandji.. The song depicts the dilemma of young Kanhaiyya, as he was born in Devki’s house but brought up in Yashda’s home and finding it difficult whom he should call “his actual mother”.. “Jisme tujhko janam diya ya jisne tujhko pala…”, very simple lyrics and simple tune and Kishore’s “open voice” makes this song very close to heart..
“Ram ka naam badnaam na karo..” is perhaps the most popular devotional song of Kishore which he sang in Hare Rama Hare Krishna(1971) under Rahul Dev Burman. Youth getting astray are motivated by Kishore with the “tyaag” and “dharma” of Rama and Krishna here with a voice “pioneering” and “comforting”.. The feelings which he brings here also makes the song memorable and timeless. “Ram ko samjho, Krishna ko jaano, neend se jaago o mastano..”, Kishore calls the youth to follow the “true path”of Almighty to come out of darkness.
Mere Jeevan Sathi(1972) is mainly rememberd for the romantic songs of Kishore for Rajesh Khanna, but the song “Aao kanhai mere dham” is very special for those who love Bhajans.. The true passion and anxiety of a bhakt for not getting the darshan of Lord Krishna, is reflected in the anxious voice of Kishore “dekho ho gayi shaam”… Composed by Rahul Dev Burman- a truly sublime bhajan for Kishore..
Naya Din Nayi Raat(1974) saw this time Laxmikant Pyarelal turning to Kishore for a nice melodious and simple Krishna vandana in terms of “Krishna Krishna bolo Krishna…”, influenced by Bengali kirtan- with proficient usage of the instrument “khol”. The song was sung very melodiously by the two legends- Kishore and Lata and is even popular to this day!
In 1974, the newcomer music director Rajesh Roshan handed Kishoreda a very high pitch beautiful devotional number “Jai Bholenath Jai Ho Prabhu” in the movie “Kunwara Baap” where Kishore sang as many as 4 songs … Although, the song might not have left too much of an impact as a “devotional song” in the mind of the audience, it is very much a memorable and a very melodious song of Kishore and Lata..
But the best was yet to come!! Laxmi-Pyare turned again to Kishore with “Prem ka rog laga mujhe yeh”- a classic devotional song on a semi-classical note in Do Premee(1980)! All the three antaras were different from one another and the note changes were complex!! With lot of vigour in his voice, Kishore sang like a truly “magan” bhakta in “Yeh kaanton ke haar hai saare , murari..” This song is still a showcase of Kishore’s multi layered voice!!
The next considerable devotional song was “Bhole O Bhole” from Yarana(1981) composed by Rajesh Roshan, may not be called a “true devotional song” in a proper sense, but had the essence of a troubled mind addressing the God.
The last significant bhajan by Kishore was in Swami Dada(1982) for Rahul Dev Burman with “Ek roop kayin naam man mandir tera dham..”.. Again a simple tune sang with lot of emotions… But bhajans were scarce those days in Hindi Cinema, and this song remained the “swan song” for Kishore as far as devotional songs are concerned…
In 1986, recovering a heart attack, Kishore recorded his last Rabindrasangeet album (Bangla) with music arrangement of his another true admirer- Hemant Kumar.. The typical low note devotional Rabindrasangeet “ Klanti aamaar khama koro prabhu…” (Please forgive my tireness, O Lord..), according to me, is the best devotional song of Kishore …
A man of many moods, Kishore truly proved his versatility in all genres of singing.. Although, his devotional songs cannot fall in the same category of “Man tarapat hari darshan” or “Sukh ke sab saathi”, but the glimpse of his great talent cannot be overlooked in all the devotional songs he had sung!! A truly “divine” voice!
Vitthalji 295/296:
Sir, here is a live show recording of Kishore Kumar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu7lVMbA960&feature=PlayList&p=5326385DE57C33B2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2
And here is the original one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAlD6zehT5E
Now compare! You would be surpirsed to find exact identical match of the live song with the original recorded one. In the live clip, you would find people having questioning whether this is live or not.. But it is live. Because, in the second antara in the live version Kishore commits a mistake in pronouncing.. Listen carefully, you would find out 🙂
Actually, stage performance is very spontaneous and with no margin of error.. See, the tribute of Kishore to Rafi “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare” was spoilt with poor orchestration and equally poor recording quality.. Also, Kishore chose to sing that song in stage just 10 minutes before the start of the function..
Hi all Rafi lovers!
I have a very useful information regarding Rafi’s Telugu songs. Recently when I went to Calypso music shop in Bangalore I was pleasantly surprised to see that Saregama (formerly HMV) has released a CD of 20 Rafi songs in telugu. THis is followed by 30 more songs by other singers which had hindi versions earlier. And it cost me just Rs.75/-. The title of the album is “Voice of Mohd. Rafi – Telugu Film Songs” and its serial number is M48071.
Its a must have for all Rafi lovers 🙂 .
Hope that you all find this info very useful 🙂
PS: I know that this KK fans website. But I am sure that many of them here are also music lovers first and also many of them are Rafi fans too. Needless to say that if I come across KK albums in any other languages than hindi and bengali, I will be the first to give such reference here.
@Arghya: What was said about SPB following KK style is certainly true. But to give more insight, SPB first followed Ghantasaalaji, and then KK and Rafi ( don’t know the exact order). This is just as like KK trying Saigal style. Like KK became famous when he was KK, so is also true about SPB. Talking about next generations, almost every playback singer in the late 90’s and 00’s in the south also imitated SPB. This will continue till eternity.
I have more clarifications to give about what was written about SPB vis-a-vis Ghantsaalaji in this thread. But I won’t do that coz its meaningless. One thing that I have noticed that very few people give SPB whats due to him. I mean there is not one singer in entire India who dominated all three languages simultaneously for close to three decades except SPB. Still this is not rated much. Its ok, who cares as long as we know the truth 😀
Paramjeet ji,
Sorry mujhe reply karne mein samay lag gaya. Beech mein ek din jab maine check kiya to site down thi. Aapka sawaal mere liye bahut mushkil hai kyonki mera gaanon ka taste mahaul ke hisaab se badalta rehta hai. Yeh sabhi gaane alag alag samay par zyada pasand aate hain aur mujhe nahi pata ki inhe overall kaise pick kiya jaye as far as preference is concerned. Yadi mai subjectively yeh dekhun ki abhi sabse zyada kise enjoy kar raha hoon (not even thinking about the technicalities) to mujhe to Kishore-Asha ke melody aur harkaton bhare gaane kaafi pasand hain aur iss samay woh mujhe zyada appeal kar rahe hain. To abhi ke liye mera choice (merely picking and not rating these) hoga (kal phir badal jaye :)).
1. Kishore-Asha (Chalti Ka Naam Gaadi ke gaane bahut mazedaar hain, “Woh Dekhen To” mein Kishore ne kamaal kiya hai, etc.)
2. Kishore-Lata (“Tere Mere Milan Ki”, “Shokhiyon mein ghola jaye”, “Gaata Rahe”, “Kora Kagaz” mujhe bahut zyada pasand hain.)
3. Rafi-Lata (“Tere Ghar Ke Saamne” is one of my all time favorites. Mai iss movie ke geeton ko bahut yaad karta hoon. Waise aap “Dekho Rootha Na Karo” ke male aur female singers ke antare ki pehli lines par dhyan den)
4. Rafi-Asha (“Accha Ji Main Hari” aur “Aaja Panchhi Akela Hai” bahut badhiya geet hain.)
Solos mein lekin Rafi aur SDB ki jodi zyada behatareen lagti hai. Badi mushkil hui hai upar ke 4 pick karne mein. Aap please apne views batayein.
Waise mujhe bhi Kishore ki 50’s, 70’s (minus a few songs) aur khas karke 60’s ki awaaz sabse zyada pasand hai. 60’s ki awaaz bahut powerful thi, usme bahut bass tha aur woh meethi bhi thi. Of course, unke RDB, Rajesh Roshan, LP aur KA ke saath to bahut acche gaane hue hain aur mai unhe sunkar bahut khush hota tha aur aaj bhi hota hoon. Par mere bahut se favorite Kishore sad songs aur mainly comedy songs 70s se pehle ke hain. “Dukhi Mann Mere” mere all time favorite sad songs mein se ek hai. Comedy gaane to hain hi “Half Ticket”, “Chacha Zindabaad”, “Girlfriend”, etc. Aur Kishore ne jo apne khud ke geet gaye hain unka kya kehna. Aapne jo jeevan darshan ke gaanon ke baare mein kaha woh bahut sahi hai. Unn geeton ka kaafi logon par bahut gehra prabhav pada tha. RDB ka ek aur geet tha “Bhali Bhali Si Ek Surat”, usme ek dusre gaane ka kuch influence hai. Mujhe uss gaane mein Kishore ka “bhali bhali” kehne ka tareeka bahut pasand hai.
contd..
Even some of rafi live songs, I have witnessed the same and was surprised to note the difference.
But astonishing fact is – the instruments are as melodious as in recorded song – why the difference for only singer’s voices. A honest doubt arises – really, if not for sound adjustments and recording effects, whether the voices of those established legends are really melodious on natural basis (as we hear many younger people singing many film songs in t v programmes in many programmes like saregama etc. these days) – is a wonderful question and doubt to make a research.
Dear music lovers,
Here is a live version of lata ji singing jo wada kiya woh nibhana padega – tajmahal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou0B9T89L0g&NR=1
A vast difference can be noticed in this live song vs. the film song. Even in terms of melody as well (this song appears just ordinary in terms of voice as well as expressions – as if an ordinary singer is singing)
I think technologically the voices, melody etc. are adjusted in recordings and when they sing in these live concerts etc. the effect is much below the recorded ones. If you hear the above live song, I feel that even younger singers today in some t v singing programmes etc. appear to sing more well in terms of voice as well as melody factors.
Arghya ji,
Kishore’s popularity no body can dispute. I had already remarked earlier – accomplished singers of golden era have cast a influence on succeeding generations, which is hard to measure.
Kishore fan ji and others,
In the other forum, under topic ‘ if rafi had sung these songs’ post 127 is written by another individual known as Mr. Vitthal, – to which post I have clarified in post 130 in the same topic. I had requested the other individual to put a initial before his name. Hope, if anybody from here visits there, will not get confused about the posts.
satyanshji,
Aap ka ek sawal mujhse chhoot gaya tha last post mein. Woh hai kaun se dashak mein mujhe guruji sabse akarshak lagte hai..mera jawab hai 60s aur 70s.. 60s mein unko industry mein ignore kiya gaya.. Magar iske liye unki personal life, industry biasedness, unke khudke issues sab milehue the..
Magar 60s mein sabse PRODUCTIVE SINGER gayak kishore kumar hi the satyanshji.. Unhone kul 200 gaane gaye poore dashak mein aur us mein se 100 se bhi adheek gaane behetareen the.. Girl friend, jhumroo, half ticket, ek raaz, rangoli, mr. X, daal mein kala, guide, teen deviyan, shriman funtoosh,door gagan ke chhaon mein, bhoot bangla, hum sab ustad hai, jewel thief,payal ki jhankar, padosan, suhag raat, mahal, khamoshi, pyar ka mausam, duniya, do raate aur aradhana ke gaane na hi sirf lokpriya hue bal ki bahut hi behetareen gayaki aursangeet ke pradarshan bhi chhode hai.. Unke kam se kam 70% gaane bahut hi lokpriya aur sundar the 60s mein… baaki industry politics ko maaro goli…
Paramjeet 289.
Although you asked the question to Satyansh, I would just enlist some best of the best duets of SD with all these four pairs you mentioned.. Perhaps would help all to judge..
Kishore-Lata:
1. Gata rahe mera dil.
2. Kora kagaz tha yeh man mera.
3. Shokhiyon mein ghola jaye.
4. Aaj madhosh hua jaye
5. Apne hothon ki bansi
6. Hey maine kasam li
7. Jeevan ki baghiyan mehekegi
8. Tere mere milan ki yeh raina
9. Hum tum ek nadi ke hai do kinare
10. Gori gori gaaon ki gori re
Interesting: Majority of them are based on Raag Pahadi.
Rafi-Lata:
1. Ek ghar banaunga tere ghar ke saamne.
2. Dekho rootha na karo baat nazron ki suno.
3. Dil Pukare aa re aa re.
4. Palkon ke peechhe se kya tumne keh dala
5. Yeh dil deewana hai dil to deewana hai
6. Teri bindiya re aye haye teri bindiya re
7. Tere naino ke main deep jalaunga
8. Aaj junli raat ma dharti par hai aasman
9. Baaghon mein bahar hai kaliyon pe nikhaar hai
Rafi-Asha:
1. Deewana mastana hua dil
2. Jo ijazat ho to ek baat
3. Jo hai deewane pyar ke
4. Gunguna rahe hai bhanwre
5. Achha ji main hari chalo
6. Chand sa mukhda kyun sharmaya
7. Kali ke dhoop mein chali ho rooth ke
8. Aa ja panchhi akela hai( my most favourite from this pair)
Kishore-Asha:
1. Woh dekhe to unki inayat
2. Chhod do aanchal
3. O nigahein mastana
4. Aankhon mein kya ji
5. Haal kaisa hai janaab ka
6. Are yaar meri tum bhi ho ghazab
7. Tum jaha jaha hum waha waha(my favourite from this pair)
8. Jaha bhi gaye hum
9. Kab maane dil ke mastaane
10. Thandi hawaon ne gori ka ghungat
Whatz ur take???I must say SD did fabulous job with all these four pairs in four different times : Kishore-Lata(late 60s to 70s), Rafi-Lata(early 60s to late 60s), Kishore-Asha(mid 50s to late 50s) and Rafi-Asha(late 50s to early 60s).. There are duets from each of these combo in other periods also(and they are duly mentioned in my best list as well), but predominantly SD worked with them in this chronology..
Subjectively, I would put my ranking as:
1. Kishore-Lata
2. Rafi-Lata
3. Rafi-Asha and Kishore-Asha tied.
Satyansh.
Actually I was reading Times Of India yesterday and saw an author Anuradha Verma mentioning how the golden oldies are recycled to make jingles of products, remix albums or even movies hit.. And guess, which singer’s name topped the list 😉
The Cadbury jingle which presently very popular in India(you might not be knowing owing to your stay in US) is nothing but the classic Sudhir Phadke composed number of Kishoreda “Din hai suhana aaj pehli taarikh hai..”
I was discussing this earlier also., Movies after movies are recycling Kishore numbers( “Bachna ae haseeno”, “Karzzz”, “Aa Dekhe Zara”, “Oye
Lucky lucky oye”, “Taxi number 9211” etc etc), products after products are utilizing Kishore numbers ( Nokia, Cadbury, Sonata etc etc), three movies on the life of Kishore are being made- one where Aamir Khan is going to play Kishore and the other Shreyas Talpade.. Thrid is not decided.. Documentories on Kishore shelved are being remade and re released.. Doesn’t it just show the real “stardom” which Kishore has? His son is still encashing on his father’s popularity on innumerable stage shows.. A whole breed of younger generation singers like Shaan, KK, Shankar Mahadevan swear by his name and keep on paying homage every now and then.. MDs like Jatin, Lalit, Anu, Pritam, Shantanu Moitra, Vishal Shekhar, Shankar Ehsaan Loy keep on missing Kishoreda for many of their compositions.. The biggest surprise came in the form of Rahat Fateh Ali Khan declaring himself as Kishore fan in spite of having an entirely different style of singing…
Statistically Kishore Kumar sang 3105 songs(more than 100 of them unreleased), but his impact on the generations have been unmeasurable..
What do you all say? Satyansh, Kishorefan, Paramjeet, Vitthalji, Surajit, Raja, Raj??
Shyam Zusti ji – your post to anil ji here,
Badiya post diya apne. I have seen scores of people, even today, even in antakshari programmes, picnic spots, singing kishore kumar songs, which in itself proves what is kishore.
Anil ji,
Your personal views are respected. One may not like a singer (however accomplished he might be) and it is his personal choice. However, one has to take into account the fact that whether majority of the people have a liking and appreciation for a singer. That “majority factor” plays a vital role and that has to be considered. Rafi, kishore, ghantasala etc. all have been appreciated by majority of the people, that is sufficient to highlight their greatness. Very few people might not like said singers, of course, which is their pure personal choice and in my view ‘subjective’ and their mind set which is counted among the ‘minority’ thinkers.
satyanshji,
mera personal favourite MD kishoreji ke saath teen log hai:
1. Rahul dev burman
2. Rajesh roshan
3. Kishore kumar khud
Uske baad SDB, laxmi pyare, kalyanji anandji, hemant kumar, salil chowdhri, c ramchandra bhi mujhe bahut pasand hai.. Aur haan ravindra jain sahab bhi kuchh madhur geet banaye the kishoreji ke liye..
RD ki baat karein to mujhe unke fast romantic gaane bahut achhe lagte hai..’ yeh shaam mastani’, ‘o mere dil ke chain’, ‘kanchi re kanchi re’, ‘raat kali ek khwab mein aayi’, ‘o hansini’ mujhe bahut unique gaane lagte hai.. Waise to sabhi tarah ke gaane hai magar samvedanshil gaane jaise ‘kuchh to log kahenge’, ‘diye jalte hai phool khilte hai’, ‘hum bewafa hargiz na the’, ‘meri bheegi bheegi si’ , ‘o majhi re’ – seventies ke best of the nest gaano mein se hai.
Rajesh roshan ke liye guruji ke soft timber mein romantic gaane jaise ‘dil kya kare’, ‘koi roko na deewane ko’, ‘main akela apni dhun mein magan’, ‘chhukar mere man ko’, ‘nazrana bheja kisine’ anokhe gaane hai aur saath hi mein udaas gaane jaise ‘udaasi bhare din’, ‘lehron ki tarah yaadein’, ‘aa re aja nindiya tu le chal kahi’, ‘ek dil sau dushman’ bahut hi pyare gaane hai.
Kishoreji ke khud ke compositions pe teen baatein bolunga bas- jhumroo, door gagagn ke chaaon mein aur door ka rahi. Bas yehi kaafi hai 🙂
LP ne sabse zyada variety gaane gavaye kishore se… Bahut lajawab gaane hai, kuchh melody mein kami hai beech beech mein, magar kaafi gaane historic hai.
SD kishore ke us strength pe kaam karte the jiske aas paas koi bhatak bhi nahi sakta. bahut saare gaane hai magar jitna explorations RD ne kiya tha, utna SD nahi kare seventies se pehle.. Kal zee tv saregamapa pe SD Burman special tha aur kishore-lata ke teen behetareen duets gaye gaye wahan pe ‘ gata rahe mera dil’, ‘kora kagaz tha yeh man’ aur ‘tere mere milan ki yeh raina’.. Isi baat se ek cheez poochhoonga aap se SD ke best duets kisne gaye? Rafi-asha, kishore-lata, kishore-asha ya rafi-lata????
Paramjeet ji,
Aapne bilkul sahi kaha Manna Dey ke semi-classicals/classicals ke baare mein. Mai aapki post 267 se bhi bilkul sehmat hoon. Aap “Na To Karwaan Ki Talash Hai” sune to usme bhi Manna Dey ne kamaal gaya hai. Sunne aur samjhne walon ko samajh pad jata hai ki kaun kaise ga raha hai aur aap to yeh sab jaante hi hain – bolne ki koi zaroorat hi nahi hai. Mujhe “Aye Sakhi” gaana accha lagta hai, Lata ne bhi kitna accha gaaya hai. “Aayo Kahan Se Ghanshyam” mein Manna Dey ne “Ghanshyam” aur “Hai Raam” kaise sundar tareeke se kaha hai aap sune. Yeh geet gana koi asaan nahi hai. RDB ke kya kehne, kya kamaal ke gaane banate the woh. Waise sir, Kishore ke saath aapka favorite MD kaunsa hai aur aapko Kishore sabse acche kaunsi dashak mein lagte the? Aur Kishore ne itne saare genres mein gaya hai to aapko unke kaunse type ke gaane sabse acche lagte hain? Kripaya MD aur song-types mein top ke kuch choices batayein aur quality/quantity ka ratio dekhen, minimum quantity of songs aap decide karen.
Arghya,
You mentioned “Aa Chal Ke Tujhe” where Kishore gives hope to a child and gentle guides the kid to a world without sorrow and tears. The same Kishore also sang the lullaby “Chup Ho Ja Ameeron Ke Sone Ke Ghadi Hai” to a child asking him to go sleep. It is not a typical lullaby and more of a reality check. Again it is on the philosophy of life, but this time it is about the harsh realities – “tere liye rone ko bahut umar padhi hai”. Kishore did full justice to this song even when he told the child “lena hai jo duniya se usse cheen ke le le”. This songs was penned beautifully by the great Rajinder Krishan. Kishore had the ability to add a whole new dimension to songs on the philosophy of life by taking the listener through a gamut of emotions.
mr. Anil.
What r u saying? Are u serious? I read all ur posts and all are big time biased ones..
If u say kishore’s range is nothing to be talked of by ignoring all the five notes which he could hit, sustain and technically sound perfect in udara and confining his octave range to 2-, then let me tell you there is nothing great to be talk of any filmy singer’s range.. I can tell you hundreds of major problems in hitting high notes(yes high, not low) of rafi sahab,. The notes where he practically shouts(or made to shout)… You take tthem as OK or natural and make his range biggger!!
I can challenge you show me one point where kishore is incorrect technically in hitting low notes and i would show you five points where other singers were faulty in hitting high notes(rafi included)…
Regards,
shyam Z.
Paramjit 285
Nice that you started this topic on philosophical songs.. Really appreciable from you.. So many gems to be talked of..
Have you seen the risk of death closely ever, Pramajeet? I have and I am still watching even today…. The day you see that you have a risk to live your life fully, Paramjeet, it would be Kishore Kumar whom you can grab and no one else.. He had taught us all the lessons.. The less I talk the better it is.. The beauty of some things lie in silence and not in absolute dragging eulogies.. I can only say one thing, the song “Yeh jeevan hai” showed me a different meaning of life altogether when I was very very low years back…
Also, not necessaily the songs having “jeevan” or “zindagi” show or depict you philosophy of life… The absence of these two words can still make a deep and heavenly philosophy.. Listen to “Panthi hoon main us path ka”.. absorb the lines and the deep understanding with which our Guruji had sung the song.. When he renders “jaane kab tak chalna hai mujhe is jeevan ke saath….” it speaks so many unuttered words at a time..
Listen to “Aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalun..”.. Do you know Paramjeet that this song was the chosen one by UNESCO( the wong of United Nations for Child and Society development) as an anthem in India??? Not a single other song can describe the aspiration and unseen dearms which a small child desires to have better… A world with no hatred, no pain, no grief, no tears- can there be any?? How can you describe a world which all of us aspire to have better than this song?? Is this not philosohical?
Listen to “Jab dard nahi tha seene mein..” you can understand the meaning of living for others and not for you.. Isn’t it a lovely philosophy??
Listen to ” Har koi chahta hai ek mutthi aasmaan….”, people talk so much about Madan Mohan opting out for Kishore in Laila Majnu, has anyone talked why Madan Mohan OPTED IN for Kishore here?? Listen to the depth and unsaid philosohy of life.. It is “ek mutthi aasmaan” which we all need just to carry off our lives.. Close your eyes and wish and it is a iece from the sky allotted to you which you want to be yours..
Can write pages and pages on this topic.. Won’t suit to all the people or fans of other singers might find it boring.. So, would put a stop.. But, when you turn to the pages of philosophy in film music, you can not complete a single page without Kishore Kumar..
satyanshji,
Jurmana movie mein ‘ e sakhi radhike bawri ho gayi’ suniye aur sochiye kyun classical manna de ji ko hi diye jaate the ek level ke baad..
Jeevan darshan pe kuchh gaane bolunga…
* zindagi ka safar hai yeh kaisa safar.
* yeh jeevan hai is jeevan ka yehi hai rangroop
* zindagi ke safar mein guzar jaate hai
* tu ne humein kya diya re zindagi
* jeevan ke din chhote sahi
* ae zindagi hui kaha bhool
* zindagi hai tadapna (arghyaji ne ek baar mention kiya tha yeh)
* mera jeevan kora kagaz( third stanza suniye’ dard sehkar janam leta har koi insaan, woh sukhi hai jo khushi se dard seh gaya’ is se behetareen aur saral jeevan darshan koi depict kar sakta hai?)
* ek raasta hai zindagi jo tham gaye to kuchh nahi
* tum bhi chalo hum bhi chale chalti rahe zindagi.
* jeevan se na haar o jeeenewale
* jeevan meetana hai deewanapan koi pyar jeevan se pyara nahi
* badi sooni sooni hai zindagi yeh zindagi
* jeevan ke safar mein rahi milte hai
* mera jeevan kuchh kaam na aya, jaise sukhe ped ki chhaya
* apna nahi par apna sa lage..chalti ka naam zindagi hai
Khaali itne gaane dhyan se sune, philosophical songs ke baadshah the kishore kumar… aur maximum gaane background mein bajte the aur hall mein ek adbhut watawaran taiyaar karte the.. Lavz kam pad jayenge woh romanch samjhaane mein..
Ek aur akarshak baat hai kishoreda ki gayaki mein woh hai unke ‘background scores’ .. Music directors yeh gaane kisi hero pe picturize karne ke badle background mein bajaake ek impact create karte the movies mein…. Yeh chand gaane le lijiye:
* mera jeevan kuchh kaam na aaya
* mera jeevan kora kagaz
* jo raah chuni tune
* ruk jaana nahi tu kahi haar ke
* zindagi ke safar mein guzar jaate hai
* badi sooni sooni hai zindagi
* man kare yaad woh din
* tere liye maine sabko chhoda tu hi chhodke chal di
* udaasi bhare din kabhi to dhalenge
*Jab tak maine samjha jeevan kya hai jeevan beet gaya
* yeh jeevan hai is jeevan ka
* dharti ki tarah har dukh seh le
Is mein to kuchh gaane aese hai jo kishoreda gaate hai background mein magar picturization hue hai heroines yani abhinetriyon ke upar.. Aesa ghazab bahut kam logon pe hua hai.. Aur bilkul bhi out of place nahi lagte the ulta gaane aur popular aur akarshak ho jaate the..
Ise kehte hai playback singing..
Yeh jeevan darshan aur background singing,, dono mein lajawab the kishoreda…
Satyansh:
Okay, I also feel we are not reaching anywhere. Just clarifying one poine that the side of the net is med-high notes rather than the high notes.
I am not uncomfortable answering your direct querries. I just hope some of the more hard core fans don’t take offence.
I’m no judge on the voice texture/property/quality and I’m no authority on HCM. So when I comment something on the voices I always prefix it with a ‘to me’, ‘to my ears’ etc. With this disclaimer I will proceed. I wouldn’t say Kishore’s voice is ‘hoarse’ as such. Generally speaking and towards the later stages of his career (say from ’75-’76) I find the Kishore voice a bit too ‘rough’ (I can’t find a better term), a bit too loud and realtively less crisp/ clear. Off course there are exceptions and off course this voice suited the persona/ image of the heroes of that period. To the vocal range- yes, I don’t find Kishore’s range much to talk about. Please note I have no intention trashing him. Just that I find 2- octave vocal range (which I believe is the case with Kishore) rather mediocre. Again, the vocal range is not everything and Kishore was ahead of many other reputed singers of HFM in this aspect.
Here’s something which you didn’t ask me but I thought would share with you. It’s about what I think of Kishore as a play back singer. Kishore is an exceptional play back singer- definitely one of the better ones, not just in HFM but anywhere in India.
All the best to you too.
Sincere thanks to Satyansh, Paramjeet, Vitthalji, Srivasji, Raja, Mast mast and all the fans.
Actually I was not at all concerned with people threatening us or using cheap languages against us for discussing music. My concern is that out of our discussions, certain things might come out which might not be to the likes of all the fans uniformly.. So, unintentionally we might end up certain group of fans which is very unfortunate. If someone says X and Y are equally good in a certain genre, so that would definitely draw some analysis which might go any way between the two, but that does not at all mean that we are trying to malign any legend here…
Satyansh./Paramjeet.
Yes, I wil definitely write something on Kishoreji’s philosohical songs. It is a vast subject with so many songs which transformed this genre from a small seed to a ful grown plant over the years. He took this genre to a different level.
Satyansh, I did not mean that “I do not enjoy Manna De classical songs.” I only meant that “Rafi’s classical songs get connected with me better”… As for popularizing this amongst the mass, I still say “I am open to correction”.. I wholeheartedly agree with Paramjeet also that after a certain period of time, the classicals all went to Manna.. This is very true.. After the songs in “TSMA” and “Sanjh aur Savera”, I think Rafi’s output in classical songs (or for that matter any singer’s classical output) drastically reduced and all went to Manna. That shows Manna’s class. The songs in “Mere Huzoor”(1968), “Budhha Mil Gaya”(1971), “Jaane Anjaane”(1971), “Mehbooba”(1976), “Padosan”(1968) and many more all demanded Manna De whereas other great singers were very much there in those movies.. That shows people’s acceptance or propensity towards Manna De in filmy classical numbers. A very good point raised indeed.
Satyansh, I would be looking forward to your take on international yoodelling vis-a-vis Kishore in detail. We had a talk one day on the points which you mentioned. Would love to see a more detailed perspective. PERHAPS IN THE FORM OF A FULL FLEDGED ARTICLE if you time permits you.
And as you know, I dont like to know personally any biased or “kattar” (extremist orthodox) person.. I have an allergy towards them.. That is my problem.. Or limitation you can say…
Cheers!!!!
Arghya ji,
Since you have specifically addressed to me, I wanted to clarify please. I do not think anybody questioned you in this forum. Rather mr. Kishore fan was discussing about the points in the other forum. So I see no reason for you to feel otherwise with regard to “this forum” and stop participating.
I am sure Mr. Satyansh & Mr. Surajit are with me & you on this issue.
Anil,
I don’t think I read too much between the lines in your posts. They were more like implied conclusions and that is why I told you to correct me if needed :). Anyways, good point in “…The natural scale of both the singers are more or less at par…”. I have always said that and all of us have tried to counter the fallacies that people propagated about notes that nobody but Rafi could touch. A direct question for you and you don’t have to answer it if you are not comfortable. Did you really say that Kishore’s voice was hoarse and that he doesn’t have much of a range to speak about, etc.? Just trying to clear the air and again, you don’t have to answer if you are not comfortable.
This is just FYI with regards to implied conclusions (which were open for correction and you clarified your view in post 262) – In your previous post 253, you said “…What exactly I meant was that ‘I don’t like Kishore that much when he has to go down to the low registers, especially when he has to sing sustained low notes’. When he does it, he can’t project the fullness of his voice and therefore there is that murmuring feel (not to be confused with the whispery feel of Rafi when he hits the low notes sometimes). This is ‘crooning’ for me…”. and then in the same post 253 you said “…I was placing both of them in the same side of the net in my first post…”. To that I said “…You are attempting to place Rafi and Kishore on the side of the net (higher notes) where Rafi is better. Sure, we can talk about that too, but we can’t just dismiss that Kishore was better than Rafi in the lower octave. Again, I keep repeating (reminds me of the true voice forum days) that I feel that a couple of notes here or there doesn’t matter, it is more important to note how effective they are in those notes. Many songs can be adjusted to the “sa” of the person singing it especially HFM songs as long as the song still retains the beauty of the original composition. I still look forward to your other detailed replies on the other points in post 249…”.
Anyways, good exchanging ideas with you. We don’t really need to talk any more since we are not getting anywhere (Point 5 aside, that was good :)). I just don’t think this is a constructive conversation in terms of output for anybody. Obviously, I hope you continue to interact with others – Paramjeet, Arghya, Surajit, etc. Sincerely (I mean it), good luck to you. Take it easy.
Arghya,
I will reply back to your question in post 261 in detail in due course. While how Kishore picked up yodelling is well-known, he did not necessarily always yodel like them all the time except for the basics that he utilized in various movies like Jhumroo, etc. His interpretations in songs like “Chala Jata Hoon”, “Na Koi Dil Mein Samaya”, “Thandi Hawa”, “Tum Bin Jaaon Kahan”, etc. impress me a lot, especially the ones where he extends and or breaks the words themselves and is not necessarily sticking to the often used “Yoo..D..Le..Ee..T”. (Please note, all good singers have their own interpretations.) There is one aspect here that I have yet to analyze completely and that is personally, I find the “O”s and “E”s sound better than the “A”s for some reason for some other singers (not Kishore, his voice in falsetto for “A”s is powerful too). I have spoken to you about this earlier. Obviously, Kishore does it all really well; maybe it is because of his powerful chest voice. Don’t think that is all since I have noticed that some other peoples voices sound thinner in the “A”s. (Paramjeet ji, aapka koi opinion ho to kripaya bataiye.) An example from “Chala Jata Hoon” is “Masti Keee” as compared to “Woh Alam Bhiii”. There are some people with extraordinary yodelling skills, however, I think it is important how you mix it with singing and I personally and subjectively enjoy the mix much more.
I couldn’t message earlier, how did it get to you leaving the site. Pagal ho gaya hai kya. I have never seen you guys – yourself, Paramjeet, Vithal ji, KishoreFan, Surajit, Srivas, Lalit, etc. be rude to anybody. You are simply expressing your opinions. There is nothing wrong with that. I like Manna Dey a lot and you said you feel that Rafi brought classical/semi-classical music to the common man and you don’t enjoy Manna’s semi-classicals as much. While I don’t agree with you and am in agreement with Paramjeet’s post 267, I don’t take your comments personally since it’s completely your choice. It should be the same for fans of other singers. If somebody writes about you directly it is certainly wrong and uncivil, but please don’t take it personally. They might simply want you to get into a discussion with them, but I hope all of you avoid it since that is the better thing to do. We all know the hooligans amongst them giving death threats, etc; but some of them might also be good people, they probably just don’t adjust well to people who don’t agree with them and they might have their reasons. If this is the same Nitish from Orkut, I think he is a nice guy; he even shares his collection with everybody without any prejudice. I hope he gets to know you directly, it might help avoid misunderstandings.
Kishore sang “Kuch to log kahenge, logon ka kaam hai kehna”. Listen to that and please continue writing :). BTW, I really like his style of saying “Baaton Mein”. Paramjeet ji ne ek bahut hi badhiya topic start kiya hai – “jeevan darshan ke gaane”. I know you like “Zindagi Ka Safar” a lot, please share your thoughts on those songs.
Arghya Ji Please Continue Here.Rightly Says Mast Mast Ji.Some People Talk Against Us Because They Don’t Agree With Our Discussions.Some Time I Think They Dislike The Truth & So They Try To Suppress The Fact.But This Is Never Happened.
We All Enjoy The Discussions Which Going Here.
Mahagyani..hahaha.. Sahi mein jo aadmi kehta hai kishore sadharan gayak the woh mahagyani hi honge ya to koi nahayogi jinko sangeet mein moksha prapt hua ho…
Tension mat lo, aese cartoon log bahut dekh chuke hai hum.. Inka ek hi kaam hai dusron ko neecha dikhake apne aap ko upar karna..
Mujhe lagta hai dusre forum mein kya chal raha hai kya nahi yeh sochke yahan ka mahol kharab na kare..
yahan pe main ek prashna rakhta hoon:
Kishoreda ke saath saath filmon mein jeevan darshan gaano pe ek bahut gehra prabhav pada tha.. Koi is par vistaar se bole please…
Arghya ji and kishore fan ji,
My request again, please do not take things seriously. Always eating sweet may also cause boredom, a mixture of hot item adds more attractiveness in such cases. Please treat these “blaming game comments” as such hot mixture – I hope then we can surely continue to enjoy.
Arghya ji,
Please do not take things seriously. These “blaming games” have become a routine feature and surprisingly many silly comments have ensured that messages run into numerous pages. I am sure, if you walk out, even we have to walk out, because we will be missing a dignified yet honest music lover to share our discussions with.
Arghya ji,
People tend to talk against us when they don’t agree with our discussions, but I don’t think that should stop us from discussing. You and Kishorefan/Raj/Vitthalji/Paramjeet have maintained your decor and not degraded the legends. Please continue and we do not want to lose a member as you here. Thanks 🙂
Kishorefan/Raj/Vitthalji/Paramjeet and all other dignified members here:
This forum started with a good intention to discuss various facets of singing, but if someone thinks that I am speaking nonsense here, please speak out. I would quit this forum and this site. We are never here to malign other legends but if someone gets hurt because of my points then please tell me. There are musically learned people like stayansh, surajit, srivasji etc. If they find my points do not make any sense or simply in bad taste, it is my request to them to clarify. I have very limited knowledge of music and I have said that time and time again. I just say something which are pretty obvious to me.. still if those does not make any sense please tell me and there would be no such discussion again.
Thanks and I would no longer post anything here in this forum as long as this issue is not clarified. Thanks to all the people. Bye.
Kishorefan 269.
I know they keep a watch on this forum and keep on writing garbage articles like which song should have been sung by whom. They have got three problems:
1. Reading problems.
2. Understanding problems.
3. Assimilation problems.
4. Frustration problems.
Read the last post by a “Mahagyani” Rafian called Nitish Sinha who had once said in a forum that “Kishore Kumar is a mediocre singer”. He says now that my interpretaion on low notes is hillarious(loz..), I should not dare talk about singing of HIM and I tried to project Kishore as a “bhajan samrat”. And read his post filled up with grammatical mistakes. As a “class conscious” people, they cant write in Hindi also like our beloved and down to earth Paramjeet. His comments are clear indications of the first three problems. One, he could not read my article properly and go to the end that I clearly mentioned Kishore does not at all feauture amongst the tops in devotional songs. Or, to be interpreted differently, this “gentleman” does not know the definiftion of Samrat. Anyways, again any of the first three problems.
Now, then, he and Haldar and all says how dare you talk of Rafi’s singing.. Unfortunatey, we only talked about Rafi (and other singer’s) technical aspects only and not make garbage comments like this song of him should have been sung better by that singer.. Which is more hillarious I should say.. They are more knowledgable than RD Burman I must say. And Mr. Sinha, why dont you counteract your views with technicality? Oh, how can you? Your musical approach is again a “class conscious” one which taught you only to trash one singer and hail one.
As I told you earlier, they are full of all problems. There is a guy called Unknown(or Ali) who keeps on gabbling around RD using Rafi more between 1978-1980. Ask that guy about statistical break up and I am sure he would reply from Islamic point of view(why Kishore converted to Islam for Madhubala…)… Superb logic I must say…
Look at another guy called Haldar, who spent his entire life collecting Kishore songs which he can term “crap” and throw in the dustbin of history.. His lines like “Joker”,” Rafi would have killed kishore”, ” Kishore’s song went into dustbin”, ” A word against farishta and you are dead”, makes me feel as if he runs a Butcher’s shop in Calcutta near to Dover Lane(and got the inspiration of music from there also)..
And of course the problem number 4 is beautifully picturized by none other than the leader himself. Who like an owl keeps himself awake in the nights and count the site visits in these two forums so that in the morning he can say “HE is more popular”..lolz.. Even if you tell him this is not the only site in this universe based on Kishore and provide him statistics of Kishore’s popularity, he gets frustrated and brings regionalism, foul mouths Kishore and of course his fans and goes home chilled with a satisfaction that he handled Kishore Kumar brilliantly.
So, brother Kishorefan, in such a beautiful musical discussions, why to name of people who are looked upon as funny breeds by outsiders?
As far as abusing me is concerned, it is highly immaterial. I have seen enough of this politics. And they also can’t tackle me with their half filled knowledge except foul mouthing and non musical and manipulated statistical things.. They know they cannot take part in this discussion
except some copy paste things from Saregama or some interview excerpts from here and there. Their musical discussion is all about”Hello XXXXji, take my salute for such a divine article.. Although I also think these all songs should have been sung by our farishta which other singers sang, I think there are 50-60 songs more.. I think the following Kishore songs……..” Goes on and on and on..You just reply them with a burst of laughter and come back on musical grounds, dear.
Cheers!
Arghya ji,
Perfect. Yodellings kishore was sophisticated. I think none could make impact in yodelling renditions similar to kishore.
Kishore fan,
It is a regular feature for Mr. Haldar & now Mr. Bhagchandani (has also joined) to make unnecessary comments. I have seen those posts in rafi forum which were totally unwarranted against Arghya ji, who has a equal respect and regard for other great singers viz., rafi, ghantasala etc. Leave it, they will correct themselves.
kishorefan bhai,
itne gyani log bhaithe hai wahan pe jo RD Burman se bhi zyada gyan rakhte hai sangeet mein.. Unko sab pata hai kaun sa gaana kisne achha gaya ya kaun behetar gaa sakta tha ya kisne barbaad kiya.. isi liye kehte hai Kishorefan bhai adha gyan agyan se bhi bhayanak hota hai.. Lalitji jaise bole the’ they think they know music’..
Aap khaali padho aur dimaag se nikaalo.. Bhagchandaniji kya bole? Unko yahan se nikala gaya? Mujhe to lagta hai woh khud apne surname ka pehla char letters ko istemaal karte hue yahan se prasthan karke apne office mein reporting kar gaye.. Aur 2-4 ulat palat likhte yahan pe to aese aese sawal poochhe jaate jo zindagi mein kabhi sune nahi honge..
Rahi baat hamare arghyaji ki, maine pehle bhi kaha tha unse in logon ko sikh leni chahiye kaise dignity maintain karte hai forum mein.. Kishoreda ke itne bade bhakt hote hue bhi baaki legends ko kaise sanman dete hai.. Khaali arghyaji hi kyun kishorefan bhai, aap, satyanshji, vitthalji, surajitji sabhi yahan pe respectful log hai..
By the way here is a Jimmie Rodgers yoodelling(Blue Yoodel #8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXV9_WilcHs
Notice the yoodellings.. The transformation to falsetto creates a whistling impact which Kishore’s yoodelling never makes.. A shrill impact you can say.. Ask me, I would say Kishore’s yoodellings were more sophisticated..
Paramjeet ji,
Aap hindi me continue kariye, kuch problem nahi hai. After all, we all are discussing about hindi music, of course, as well as ghantasala songs, but no issue since ghantasala fans also know hindi very well. Aapke messages bahut interesting hai, samajhne me kuch problem nai hai.
Arghya ji,
I have taken your advise in right spirit by not bringing out any points in regard to the other forum and was enjoying the discussions going on in this forum. But I am unable to stop, despite your advise, mentioning that in the other forum in the col. if rafi had sung these songs (see recent posts) in posts 68, 69 of Mr. Bhagchandani and Mr. Haldar in his earlier post have passed unpleasant comments against you (leave kishore kumar – it has become a regular feature). When you are so nicely involved in a very dignified discussion here, ( your post 256 on rafi as a legend is a great example for that – advise to Mr. Debjyoti here – 255) has not created any effect on any rafi fan in the other forum – I am unable to stop to bring this to your notice. If you permit, let us give a fitting reply there, I hope Mr. paramjeet and others also would join in giving proper reply without compromising our dignity. Again, please excuse me for bringing this point here, but i could not see “without reason – blame” on a dignified music lover.
Paramjeet 267.
Thanks for the post.
Paramjeet, the things you said are correct.. Not only Rafi, but also Manna, Ghantashala all contributed to the popularity of classical music amongst common people in different languages and I fully agree with that.
I said quite explicitly that “However, this is a disputable claim, so I am open to correction.” and I am. I only say that I found “Rafi classicals are more connectibles with me”.. Say when I hear a Ghantashala or a Manna classical it is very hard to imagine a member of Flat No.6 staying in Vishnupriya Apartment loving a girl and sing the song.. But listen to Rafi’s semi classicals you will find that even that boy next door “might sing a Aj hu na aaye balma..” for his girlfirend”.. I hope I am clear.. I am not claiming that Rafi classicals are BETTER THAN MANNA OR GHANTASHALA( the songs like “Rasika Raja” or “Siva Sankari” cannot be by any imagination sung by Rafi as I had said earlier also), but Rafi with his slower tempoed taans or less complex types of taans(never trying all three in a same song- as you said) or less convoluted alaaps “USED TO APPEAL COMMON MEN MORE THAN MANNA”.. That is my points and never to mean that Rafi>Manna in classical songs.
You are also right in saying in terms of technicalities and when public demand for classicals went upwards, Manna became the “original choice” for classical songs from late 60s onwards.. I fully agree with that.
“Nirbol” classicals- I can’t say anything.. Let Surajit Bose or other learned person respond to this whether Rafi could make a semi classical without much wordings beautiful or not.. As I said, dont take me so seriously, I am not at all a trained authority like many in this forum.. I am mainly a good listener(within my limitations) and people say(generally, except some biased bloods) what I write makes sense.. Would put a stop to this now..
arghyaji.
Aapka point dhundla sa hai.. Clear nahi hai.. Aap kya yeh bolna chahte hai ke ‘rafi common men’s classical singer the’ aur manna ya ghantashala ‘classical musician’s classical singer the’?? agar yeh baat hai to bhi main differ karke bolunga yeh sirf kuchh had tak theek hai.
Is mein koi doubt nahi ki rafi sahab ne semi classicals ko popular kiya magar kya manna ne nahi kiya? Kyun ek level ke baad (after mid 60s) sabhi classical gaane manna ko diye jaate the? Agar popularity hi factor hai to? Kyun shammi kapoor pe ‘chham chham baje re payaliya’ manna ne gaye? Kyun teri soorat meri aankhein mein manna ko zyada difficult classical diya gaya? Mere huzoor mein rafi se ghazal aur manna se classical kyun gavaya gaya? Mehbooba mein ragatmak gaana kishore ko deke , alankarik gaana manna ko kyun diya gaya? Kya woh popular nahi hue? 70s mein kitne classical gaane alankar ke saath gaye rafi sahab ne? Aesa to nahi gaane nahi bante the.. Rahul dev burman ne khud kitne cclassical gaane banaye.. Baat yeh hai arghyaji, ek level ke baad common log bhi zyada demand karne lagte hai.. Unko woh ‘classicalism’ voice aur singing mein nazar aani chahiye..
As a ‘voice’ kishore kumar zyada classical sound karte the magar woh gaate nahi the alankar ke saath.. Aur alankar mein bhi manna ji ki pahoonch bahut upar tha arghyaji.. Aap ne kaha jo cheezein obvious hai(taan, alaap etc.) wohi aap samajhte hai.. To us hisaab se bhi manna bahut oonche hai guru..
Satyanshjo sahi hai ke manna fans ko populaity pe koi farak nahi padta.. Popularity kya hai? Kishore kumar itne popular hai kitne log unko theek se study kiye hai?
Rafi ke classical gaane bahut had tak MD aur lyricist pe dependant tha(sirf classical, dusre gaane nahi).. Siva sankari jaisa gaana jisme bol ya dhun se zyada vocal accomplishment important hai aese gaane kitne hai? Ketaki gulaab juhi jaise ‘nirbol'(less words more ornamentation) gaane kitne hai??
Vitthalji maine sarada devi geet pehle hi suna hua hoon aur bolne ki zaroorat nahi main atyant prasanna hoon… Main alag se kabhi vistaar mein likhunga is baare mein..
Kumar ji – 264
Thanks for your great post. Enlightening. Sir, there was no comparison here, as the two were certainly incomparable legends. There was only sharing of songs of those legends here and a beautiful musical discussion was being shared here.
Paramjeet ji, – I think the issue is clear, why ghantasala did not sing any hindi song.
Sri Vas ji – Madi sarada devi is certainly one of my favourites. It is such a great rendition. Thanks for the inputs there – really amazing.
Arghya ji – Please do not call me a classical expert analyst. I have very limited knowledge in music. Thanks for your compliments (though I am not eligible)
Arghya & Paramjeet ji, – have you heard madi sarada devi in post of sri vas ji. I did not share that rendition with you earlier.
Thanks
Vitthal
Kumar 263/264.
I dont think any singer can be compared “AS A WHOLE” with any other singer braodly..What we are discussing perhaps are certain traits of one with the other”IN A GOOD SPIRIT”. Interesting to know about the SPB thing. I did not know that. One of my freinds and an ardent SPB(and Rafi) fan Prabhanjan can throw more lights on this perhaps. In many songs I found SPB’ s enactment(in the 80s Hindi movies) quite resemblant to Kishore’s style.
Satyansh 257
Very appreciable observation indeed. There are certain aspects of Kishore’s yoodelling(what you call transformation from chest voice to full falsetto and then landing again)-
1. Of course, sustainence in the falsetto voice much longer than any other singer.
2. Coverage of notes while switching from chest voice to full falsetto.
3. Pitch at which he could make the switch. It can be bent towards any of the register high or low- two contradictory examples I would like to share.
“Piya piya piya mora jiya pukare…”(which Paramjeet said as his most favourite yoodelling), he takes the tranformation from high to higher.I think it starts from “sa” of the highest.. Now compare this with yoodelling of “Imtihan ho gayi intezaar ki…”, the start of the song, the yoodelling starts I think from “re” of middle octave(d3).. This is again a sheer talent as he had that uncanny ability to transform to falsetto at any range..
4. And of course, there is that ability to make an yoodelling appealing in a variety of genres.. Of course, it started with an expression of happy or fun moods, but slowly he too it to romanticism and sadness also.. And never sounding out of place..
That is why I wanted to know the yoodelling styles of different western singers from you and how you rate Kishore on an international scale.
Vitthal ji – 254
contd.. to my previous post,
In my previous post as I mentioned about rafi’s failed experimentation of telugu songs , I might think that, as you mentioned, ghantasala might have known about that factor and that is why about his rendition of any hindi song, perhaps he might have avoided hindi song for avoiding such embarrasment situations (as happened for rafi in telugu).
Mr. Satyansh, Mr. Vitthal, Mr. Arghya and others.
NO COMPARISON BETWEEN RAFI AND GHANTASALA – FOLLOWING PARAS SHOULD CLEARLY THROW LIGHT ON THIS.
I am a telugu man and In my view, there cannot be any comparison between rafi and ghantasala, as two were from entirely different fields. One is from carnatic music field and another is hindusthani field. It is true that in southern film industry (more so in telugu) there is no equal for ghantasala in terms of his contribution there, as was for rafi in hindi. Like one Mr. A S Murthy states here that the two industries were different, and both rafi and ghantasala were fully fit for their respective industries in terms of a very wide variety of beautiful achievements, and achieved more prominence than others, the factor which had not been surpassed till date. Perhaps this might be reason for their comparison (more so due to their status) Another factor is that many telugu people being conversant with hindi language could appreciate rafi equally like ghantasala, but on the other hand rafi fans might not fully appreciate ghantasala due to their limited knowledge of the telugu language, whereas a telugu man could clearly decipher ghantasala’s complete perfection similar to rafi, by virtue of their knowledge of telugu. Mr. Vitthal’s points are valid here ( 100% chaste telugu language command and expression to the perfection for ghantasala was fully correct and these can be known only by people having telugu language knowledge)
Rafi fans specially,
As rafi was perfect in hindi (as per the requirements of hindi language and industry requirements) so was ghantasala for telugu (he had a special edge in classical renditions – but had equal unique attraction in other genres as well ranging from romatic to devotional to comedy to various others – otherwise if he was only a classical expert how could he rule telugu industry for nearly 3 decades as the undisputed monarch of playback singing) No body will believe if you say that on only classical film songs telugu industry has thrived which will be a foolish argument. So unless one is well conversant with telugu language, ghantasala cannot be appreciated in full, though musically he might sound attractive.
More so, I have seen many rafi fans claiming that rafi sang in telugu. That is good but it is absolutely a fact that rafi could not do any justice to telugu song. I will narrate the story behind this. NTR had a fight with ghantasala, and there was dispute between them and NTR had invited rafi to sing for a telugu film (bhale tammudu in 1969 as NTR thought that rafi is the perhaps only singer in the country, other than ghantasala, who can be attractive in telugu) but this did not work, as rafi was in no way appreciated there. Subsequently, in another film talla pellama, NTR came down and with little reluctance, made a combination of both rafi and ghantasala (some songs for rafi and some for ghantasala – ghantasala song became hits and rafi was again down) and that was the end of road for rafi there. NTR, without any other option, had to again approach ghantasala. This was about rafi’s earlier stint with telugu renditions. Whatever other very few telugu songs, rafi have rendered are only after the demise of ghantasala and virtually for all purposes, rafi had clearly no room in the telugu industry – it was clear. More so, whatever songs rafi have rendered in telugu are copies of his hindi songs, and there are no original telugu songs rendered by rafi under any of the greatest telugu music directors. So rafi rendering any telugu song, has virtually no importance from telugu industry point of view and the industry was such that rafi would not have really fitted therein at all.
So friends, let us treat both rafi and ghantasala as two great legends the indian film industry has given to us, and enjoy their awesome contribution individually, which has not been surpassed till date.
Kishore fans,
I was given to understand that a late son of ghantasala was a kishore fan and had liking for kishore kumar. See, the son of a established singer (more so with classical background) had admiration for kishore, which in itself proves, that kishore too had a numerous fan following even amongst classical musicians. SPB used to imitate kishore kumar in his early stages, but I was given to understand that ghantasala advised SPB to develop originality factor instead of imitation, as the original talent alone will achieve importance. Nevertheless, it is a fact that kishore kumar is also equally appreciated with huge fan following, even by classical musicians, as can be seen in this forum as well. That is really a special factor for kishore.
Satyansh:
I think you read a little too much between the lines in my posts. I was basically trying to say the following points:
“1. Both Rafi and Kishore sound their best (to me) when they sing mid-high notes (I also mentioned the notes) and therefore it goes without saying that both are less-than-at-their-best in the low notes.
2. Kishore can go lower than Rafi (I mentioned the notes again) and sounded ‘cool’ when he did it. I also specifically said I like him when he does it (though not as much as his mid-high notes)
3. I don’t like Kishore too much when sings sustained low notes. Here again, I mentioned specifically that technically there wouldn’t be much issues with these notes; just that they are not too pleasing to my ears (in comparison to the low notes of some other singers as well as Kishore himself at mid-high notes)
4. The perfection of Rafi’s low notes can be questioned by Indian classical music (both HCM and KCM) followers. But I don’t dismiss it as ‘bad singing’; neither would I hail it as ‘great singing’.
5. The natural scale of both the singers are more or less at par.
6. The absolute range of Rafi is 2+ octaves and Kishore is 2- octaves.”
That’s it. Or if in doubt, just scroll back to my posts. Now what are the conclusions you have drawn up from my points? That I am trying to pit Kishore against Rafi in high notes? When did I do it? I didn’t compare these singers anywhere, in the first place, except when querried about the absolute scales and I didn’t ever venture into the high notes at all except the mention of the absolute ranges and the best notes (which off course is a personal choice).
Okay, now to ‘crooning’ again. I didn’t say Kishore did not sustain the lower notes. He did and technically there cannot be any issues. But does he project his voice as fully and sing as freely as he does in the higher registers? I know it is not easy to do it but then there are people who do it rather well (No, Rafi is not one of them). Let me clarify more. “Crooning” (to me) doesn’t stand for bad or fake singing. I used the term more to convey ‘a less free-flowing’ or ‘a relatively stifled’ singing.
Satyansh 258.
Yes, the most face paced taan in the song with maximum variation was executed by some other classical vocalist in “Madhuban mein radhika..”.. People are clever also to put that on the lips of a comedian in the picture as if to make this work “a fun..”. That way the fast paced sargam taan in “Pag ghungroo bandh..” also should not be questioned as to why Mishraji sang it..lol..
My point I think you also got. Yes, I put aside the technicalities while listening to a semi classical. As I am no authority to judge the technicalities of a classical song like Lalitji, Surajitji or Srivas ji or Vitthalji. I have a good pair of ears, and I find a “common appeal” or you can say the Rafi semi classicals gets “connected with me better”. That is all what I can say, as I cant judge technicalities in classical singing unless and otherwise it is pretty obvious( tempo of taans, type of taans, complexity of taans, coverage of notes, pitch of alaap etc. etc. etc.).. You can say it is a very superficial approach of listening to classical songs, but I have my limitations..lolz..
By the way, I have a question to you again..lolz.. What is ur take on Kishore’s yoodelling vis-a-vis yoodellings of the Western artists? Perhaps Dean Martin or Frank Sinatra?? Do you think Kishore comes right up there with the international best of the bests??
Surajit 259.
Nice to see you back again. We missed you.
Srivas ji,
Please ignore my question on the rendering of the raag. Questioning and commenting upto a certain level are fine. However, I do not wish to analyze and discuss in hindsight if one of the great legends laid appropriate stress on the vadi/samvadi and if he could have resolved it differently. I don’t even care if people never realize that. Let everybody enjoy their favorite singer as long as they don’t demean other singers.
Hi Anil,
It’s refreshing to see you discuss musical technicalities so civilly with Arghya and Paramjeet, for a change.
I have no problems if you say that you prefer Rafi’s renditions in the lower scale, as compared to Kishore. After all, we are all individualistic and we have our preferences.
However, technically speaking, Rafi’s voice is just not suited to singing in the lower scale. When Rafi tries to sing in the lower scale, he automatically reduces the volume of his voice. And his voice is just not suited for singing in the lower volume. That is why, his voice loses some of it’s clarity and assumes a husky, whispering texture. Obviously, this is required for some songs and they come off well. However, that is also one of the reasons why he found it difficult to shine for as long as the saigal and talat style of singing was in vogue.
Also, there are instances where when Rafi sang in the lowest scale during a song, he had to manipulate his larynx and thus prevent his normal, full voice to come out. This had been talked about previously on other forums and one example that readily comes to mind is when Rafi sings the line “Aag laki saawan ki barkhaa” in “O duniya ke rakhwale”. When Rafi touches the low dhaivat on “wan” in “saawan”, he manipulates his larynx and muffles his voice. For a classicist, that’s hard to overlook.
This has nothing to do with sur. It’s just that when you learn classical singing, among other things like latching on to the pure source of the sound (or nada), achieving resonance etc., you are taught to use your breath properly (prana), and you are also instructed not to manipulate the larynx (artificially closing it and thus muffle the sound when it comes out) when singing in the lower registers.
Rafi’s voice was such that it needed the right amount of volume to express it’s range and expression.
Kishore is pigeonholed as a comic and wacky singer. But if you looked deeper into the main aspects of classical singing, like voice control, timbre, projection, resonance, clarity, precision – things that are really important, he is amazing. People mostly look for ornamentation when it comes to singing. And that is the most unfortunate part. And that is why Kishore is underappreciated. It’s actually a tribute to his talent that he makes it appear easier than it actually is.
Paramjeet ji,
I am in complete agreement with your Post 247. Arghya aur mai bhi yehi baat kar rahe the isiliye maine tabhi Anil se waise sawaal kiya tha. Mujhe Manna Dey ke SC aur SJ ke saath bahut zyada pasand hain. SDB mere all time favorite MD mein se ek hain aur unhone to Manna Dey se kai acche gaane gavaye hain. CR ka “Tu Chuppi Hai Kahan” bhi lajawaab tha. Ispar to mai ek poori post likhunga jab aap wapis aa jayenge. Kuch gaane to mere dil ke bahut kareeb hain :). Aapke point (ii) ka to jawaab mere liye bilkul seedha hai. Naushad ji Manna Dey se aur bahut se gaane gava sakte the. Waise mere hisaab se Manna Dey overall under-utilized rahe aur typecast kar diye gaye. Yeh to aisa hua ki aapne mere jaise sawaal kiya jiska jawaab to aapko pata tha, lol. Aapke regularly phir forum par aane ka mujhe intezaar rahega. Mai bhi abhi thodi break le leta hoon. Bahut typing ho gayee. Dost Arghya ne kaha forum par aa jao to mai aa gaya tha :). Aapse email aur phone number exchange karna chahunga. Kar sakte hain to bataiyega.
Srivas ji,
Thank you for sharing your inputs and the song. I enjoyed reading your inputs. With regards to “Madhuban Mein Radhika Naache”, can you explain in detail what should have been done to keep the essence of the raga alive and what are the notes that were distinctly emphasized by Rafi? Also, were there certain notes that Rafi did not put proper emphasis on and instead just kissed them? For the sake of clarification for everybody and since it is hard to understand these things online without listening to the actual sounds, when you say “…it is known that each note is specifically concentrated by rafi…whereas manna is different – there is continuation efffectiveness in his renditions…”, I read it as the kind of sound when say people start moving their jaw during a taan (the aww sound, I can’t find an easy way to spell it) instead of the sound flowing from inside. Please correct me if this is not what you are talking about. I have seen some teachers correct people when they do that, but again I am already crossing my line by speaking about these legends. I do agree that Rafi’s voice was sweeter than Manna Dey’s voice, but I also like Manna Dey’s voice and feel that he sang very freely and had good bass in his voice too. He could also make it sweet when needed, though not as sweet as Rafi. I like Rafi and Kishore’s voice texture more. On those lines, I also like Rafi’s and Kishore’s voice texture more than Ghantasala although I believe Ghantasala was a superior singer. Please note that I do not wish to bring in any points that might seem to not be in favor Ghantasala, I am merely talking about voice texture and this could also be because I hear the sounds when listening to Ghantasala’s songs and don’t understand the language. I really like Ghantasala.
Anil,
I interpret from your post that you believe that Kishore did not sustain low notes and that is what you call crooning. Correct me if I am wrong. Uncomfortable notes would still be easier to digest, but sustaining say a straight-forward low dha (not his lowest) for Kishore should not be a problem at all. I wouldn’t call that crooning, but in any case now I know what you are talking about with regards to “low octave crooning”. I don’t think Kishore had any problems in sustaining the low note in “Koi Hota”, his voice was certainly heavier, but that is about it. You are attempting to place Rafi and Kishore on the side of the net (higher notes) where Rafi is better. Sure, we can talk about that too, but we can’t just dismiss that Kishore was better than Rafi in the lower octave. Again, I keep repeating (reminds me of the true voice forum days) that I feel that a couple of notes here or there doesn’t matter, it is more important to note how effective they are in those notes. Many songs can be adjusted to the “sa” of the person singing it especially HFM songs as long as the song still retains the beauty of the original composition. I still look forward to your other detailed replies on the other points in post 249.
Arghya [Post 256],
[…And that is not at all considering the technicalities like the pitch of alaap, tempo of taan, variety of taans, murkis etc. etc. The sheer reason I liked Rafi’s semi classicals more than other more trained singers is I found Rafi’s singing more” linked with common man”…A layman can understand Rafi and like the way he approaches classical music whereas an appreciation for Ghantashala can not come to a layman like this. I still think it is Mohamed Rafi who made semi classical music understandable to the common people via movies more than Manna De…] – I am a layman too and I appreciate Ghantasala more than Rafi on semi-classical songs, so that can be termed a generalization. A big NO to the second point too lol. IMO, the credit for that goes to KLS and after him Manna Dey. I am not really concerned about the credit as much as the singing aspect of it and there I believe both Ghantasala and Manna Dey better Rafi. The fact that you like Rafi more in “semi-classical” is completely cool. Everyone has their opinions and one might like a song like “Madhuban Mein Radhika” better than something like “Ketaki Gulab Juhi” , but that does not mean that the former was a better rendition (while this is an apples to oranges comparison, I hope you get the point). Also, one should not miss the point that they had a singer other than Rafi render parts for “Madhuban”. People talk so much about Kishore not singing “Pag Ghungroo Baandh” in it’s entirety, but no one talks about this. Maybe there was a reason for this and then they showed another actor (Mukri??) singing it on screen :). I think this was put most succinctly by Surajit who said “…Rafi has a classicist approach to singing…”. I couldn’t have said it better. Do you like the “classicist” approach rather than the “classical” approach of Manna Dey or Ghantasala and the “natural” approach of Kishore the most? I like the “classical” approach more; if it was purity and freshness, I like Kishore; and I like Rafi equally for being a fine balance between the two. Different singers for different moods. As Surajit said, it is just a mindset. Also, you might be confusing the melody in the Rafi songs to the other numbers. Rafi’s songs were certainly melodious and that has a lot to do with the MDs. In that regard one might even like HFM renderings more than those of the pandits, which again is cool, but doesn’t make the former renditions better. So I am glad that you clarified already that when you are talking about who made classical more understandable to the common people, you already set aside the technicalities. Personally, I like to speak about who was more effective and better equipped technically; you have to remember that a Manna Dey fan knows that Rafi, Mukesh and Kishore were ahead of him in terms of popularity and mass appeal in HFM. Our discussion is only with regards to who is the better singer. When people talk about popularity, etc. I don’t care either ways. Himesh R. beats all of them in popularity and we all know what a “singer” he is lol.
Arghya [post 248],
Very funny song. Kishore in those different roles is a riot. My all time favorite entertainer. Excellent point about smooth progression across octaves and spontaneous switching of notes. Again, my disclaimer precedes my opinions :). IMO, it is not a straight-forward topic because when you talk about smooth progression across octaves, one can do that by singing in different registers as well. I would try to give my take in different paragraphs so all can read and comment. I hope I arrange my reply correctly otherwise it could be confusing.
If I understand your question correctly, I would largely categorize both points into 2 buckets – one where say the chord progression is constant and another where there is a pause and you start on a different scale without preceding music to guide you. I have seen some people say “hava mein se sur ko pakado”; that applies to the latter. Kishore could do this very well, as people say that he would parade around during a stage show and then all of a sudden start singing from the correct “sur” without any preceding music. But, I feel as far as randomly changing the scale of the song from one line in say the medium octave to another in a different one, with pauses, Rafi is better and in my opinion, it was one of his strengths. This was utilized to the hilt by many MDs. SDB made use of this and Rafi’s soft and sweet texture a lot. I don’t see much of a difference as far as smoothly progressing across octaves goes for any of these singers, if you look at it for their respective range. Actually, I don’t know any “good” singer who can not go from high notes in the middle octave to a high Sa or Re smoothly.
Rafi’s style was to generally hold on to a note longer and kiss notes during his harkatein. As far as spontaneous switching of notes in a regular progression is concerned, I feel Kishore is better. It is an aspect of his harkatein and just natural to the way he sings. Then again Rafi is good there too. There is also a caveat to Kishore singing after pauses. He has often made it sound funny and in most of the songs I can think of at the top of my head, he has gone into falsetto. He has done it beautifully every time, but there is a caveat to this beauty as well that I wouldn’t like to discuss. Now, neither singers’ styles sound good on all filmy songs. Let me add to this, all singers have different styles and they are all suited to different songs.
An example of harkatein is how differently both of them say (and “could” have said) the word “Kisne” in the line “Dhoop Ko Kissne Baandha” from the song “Man Re”. I enjoy both styles. I think it is tougher to sing it in Rafi’s style in Kishore’s voice as also to sing in Kishore’s style in Rafi’s voice (I hope I am being clear here with regards to style and voice). It is hard for me to write about these things without actually singing to explain, so I apologize if I am not being clear :).
Rafi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7Slc6ANDVw (1:08 to 1:09)
Kishore (recording quality is bad): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd1_yG9k11w (2:12 to 2:16)
Anup Jalota sang it too. Hear this version – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE-V4UzSUPI&feature=related . (1:17 to 1:29). I don’t want to say too much, but I love how he says “Kisne” too (subjectively don’t like his voice a lot, but like his style of saying this word).
The reason I gave the example of “Kisne” above is because if you notice Kishore’s style he intentionally pauses after “Dhoop Ko” and does not put as much harkatein in that word as he could have especially during the “Neee”. He had the ability to do that and that would, in my opinion, have been his first instinct in this song. I know we all have plenty of examples of Kishore’s spontaneous switching of notes and “Koi Hota” as described by you was one. I think “Guzar Jayen Din” is a good example and a tough song to sing.
There is another aspect of Kishore that needs to be highlighted here, and that is pertaining to singing from/in different registers. We know that Kishore could maintain his timber across octaves and progress smoothly between registers. IMO, one of the reasons he was the best in Hindi film music in yodelling (other than his powerful chest voice) is because he could spontaneously switch between his chest voice and falsetto and he had a pronounced break when he needed it which is why his switch sounded so cool. I have never heard Rafi do that. This point has not been highlighted since I think there is a lot more to Kishore than yodelling even though I respect yodelling as an art form and enjoy it even more because of the context in which Kishore does it. A good example of a pronounced break is in “Na Koi Dil Mein Samaya” when Kishore comes back from falsetto to chest voice in “JanejaaaaaN Janemann”.
Anil. 253.
Well, I must say, both of us know the fact but interpret differently.. Change in voice texture is never a good sign of hitting low notes IMHO neither is to let people know “you are actually hitting notes” IMHO. I would agree hereby 100% with Paramjeet. A husky voice in low notes is never a sign of calm and coolness- you also know that. But you like that better, that is your choice. That line of thought, I think you find Kumar Sanu also attractive for his singing of all those high notes via nasal chords..
Srivasji 252.
Nice to see you back. I think you explained things quite beautifully. And I could interpret a thin knowledgable music person like me when I read such beautiful explanations. I must say, as a layman, I liked Rafi sahab’s classical songs more than Manna De’s. And that is not at all considering the technicalities like the pitch of alaap, tempo of taan, variety of taans, murkis etc. etc. The sheer reason I liked Rafi’s semi classicals more than other more trained singers is I found Rafi’s singing more” linked with common man”.. A layman can understand Rafi and like the way he approaches classical music whereas an appreciation for Ghantashala can not come to a layman like this. I still think it is Mohamed Rafi who made semi classical music understandable to the common people via movies more than Manna De. However, this is a disputable claim, so I am open to correction.
Debjyoti 255
Please dont say such childish things in such a revered forum. You tackle Rafi fans with vigour for all their nonsense, I always support, but please do not say such things for a legend like Rafi sahab. Let us maitain the required dignity in this site.
Kishoreda is the greatest singer and genius in the world.All his devotional songs are superb.Rafi as a singer is light years behing Kishoreda.JAY KISHOREDA!!!
Paramjeet ji,
A good question. Generally, this doubt comes, why such great singer ghantasala venkateswara rao (famed by his surname ghantasala) did not sing in Hindi. It was because, ghantasala never used to venture in an area, where he did not consider himself 100% perfect (like he was in telugu industry – right from 100% chaste language command to perfect musical command across various possible genres and had virtually no competition due to his exalted talent) He was of the opinion that unless one cannot contribute 100% perfection, it may not be effective. He did not know hindi language. That is why (with such status in telugu) he might have thought of not singing any hindi song, because he might have thought that he might not perform perfectly as far as the language issue is concerned . He has sung many songs in tamil, kannada as well as malayalam, though telugu he is the highest where he is the paripurna amara gayaka. He had no formal education, but rose to a position which has not been surpassed/or even have come at least nearer, even today by anybody in telugu industry.
Surprisingly, today many singers even if they are not perfect/versed with the language start singing songs (udit narayan sings telugu songs)
Ghantasala fans never, like kishore fans, degrade any singer (though they admire ghantasala more due to his unique position and talent) but had to mention him in rafi forum, because a public campaign was going on that rafi alone is ………….. (& when he was introduced, cases are well known – rafi fans have been taken by surprise) this was the main reason why such comparison rose. Never has been the issue with kishore fans, because I have noticed that kishore fans are much more dignified.
Satyansh:
A courteous post deserves a courteous reply- hence this post.
I have to quote my first post again:
“I like Kishore best when he sings medium high notes with his no-holds barred style and not when he croons the low-notes.” “that he is not comfortable in” is your addition. I didn’t mean ‘Kishore croons notes which he can’t sing in full (chest) voice or when things go below his comfort zone’. What exactly I meant was that ‘I don’t like Kishore that much when he has to go down to the low registers, especially when he has to sing sustained low notes’. When he does it, he can’t project the fullness of his voice and therefore there is that murmuring feel (not to be confused with the whispery feel of Rafi when he hits the low notes sometimes). This is ‘crooning’ for me; I wasn’t referring to the sentimental and minutely-phrased crooning of Crosby, Sinatra & Co. As examples of such songs I will have to point out several instances, sometimes in the low notes, sometimes in the low-to-mid notes. For low-notes singing in light songs, there are other (and better) examples than Saigal saab (In South India) and I would be glad if you find out a few of them.
Let me repeat it again. I had (and still have) no intention to compare Kishore with Rafi; rather I was placing both of them in the same side of the net in my first post. If at all I went for a bit of comparison later on, that’s only because I was lead into it by subsequent posts of Arghya, Paramjitjee and yourself.
Arghya:
I wasn’t contradicting myself. ‘To sound cool, relaxed and good is the key’ and I still maintain it. I like many Kishore efforts in the low notes when he hits them cool and relaxed (especially in his youth). With Rafi, I know pretty well that many HCM exponents wouldn’t approve his way of hitting the lows with that huskier and sometimes hushed texture. But to me (subjective it may be) it is quite attractive and I’m sure many of the listeners (classical exponents and others) like it too. BTW, the Western classical singing approves it and many of the exponents think it is the way to do it. As I have written sometimes back here, the change in texture enables Rafi to communicate well with the common folks; they know when he hits the low notes that it is indeed a low-note.
Dear Friends and music lovers,
It is really a very interesting topic to discuss on musical notes, whether low, medium or high pitch. The question of rendition of various pitches whether low, medium or high is a matter of debate on one hand & on the other hand, it is a interesting point that how effectively they are rendered. I have seen many persons who are not musically trained but have been able to render all pitches comfortably, – they had a range which could render all pitches but for sure they were not effective in rendering the notes effectively, because of their lack of knowledge in music. Another interesting issue, persons without music knowledge have also, with determined practise, have been singing songs (particularly these days) and are able to create attraction, though such renditions are not fully perfect, rather upto the mark, if we go by the perfect qualities of a particular raga in which such songs are rendered. In olden days, viz., 40’s to 60’s most of the singers had classical background in music (though the specialisations differed), thus we could see original talent in those singers vis-a-vis musical renditions.
So the point (in the view of many established musicians) is not only touching notes, but the effectiveness with which they are rendered is most relevant. Persons having good range of voice almost covering all the 3 octaves, if well trained in music, and having strength and depth in renditions, sound very nice in renditions of songs particularly in terms of effective note rendition.
Since the topic was on notes, in my view, the notes should be comfortably rendered without any bit of strain or uneasiness, at the same time without compromising any of the qualities prescribed for a raga. That will become a perfect rendition. An example of such a rendition, I am sharing with all the friends here :
Madi sarada devi (a south indian telugu film song – classical rendered by ghantasala, p b srinivas and raghunath panigrahi, an hindusthani musician; Ghantasala sings for ANR – the hero in white dress – the rendition may please be observed from 2.01 to end – ghantasala renders in a breathless stage the notes and swara alapana with ease in all the 3 octaves lower note ni in lower octave to high note ga in upper octave – the effectiveness with which the kalyana raga is rendered here is indeed stupendous and ranks beyond comparison – this rendition is another greater number similar to the one appreciated here i.e rasika raja of ghantasala)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpgcmWqwX5U
Hope satyansh ji, Arghya ji & paramjeet ji will enjoy the beautiful rendition.
Lalit ji and Surajit may further comment on the raga and rendition for interest of music lovers.
Mr. Vitthal,
You have not presented this song here and I am sure this is one of your favourites.
In my view, in Hindi film (i am a carnatic musician) world, rafi and manna dey ji did render many classical songs – though manna dey has a little edge over rafi in purely technical qualification (not to be mistaked with technical talent which has a connection with vocal chords and voice) but I do not think both rafi and manna as well, as Mr surajit Bose states here, were as effective as their counterparts in the south specially ghantasala who had a clear edge over others and I think even p b srinivas from the south had a good command over music (though his voice did not have the depth and strength which ghantasala had and in high pitches he got diluted) vs rafi and manna.
The general difference as, we carnatic musicians observe that manna sings comfortably as compared with rafi (who however has a good voice than manna). Rafi however, appears more attactive in renditions, other than classical hindusthani ones.
Kishore fan, your points assumes importance here – madhuban mein radhika – nicely rendered. Why surajit ji had stated that this should have been rendered more effectively, the reason is, the ease/efficiency with which the notes should have been rendered in the raga is not present in full form – perhaps manna would have done more justice – from a technical point of view (rafi is fine from voice point of view) – You are correct, the nee madhu murali ( I have heard it twice from your post 153) of ghantasala – perfectly rendered – both from voice point of view as well as technical effectiveness in the raga is fully present. My view is that, the hindi song is definitely nice to hear, but if you consider from a technical point of view, it should be more effective particularly the raga rendition should be continuous and not independent of notes (which is one of the quality for rendering hamir kalyani raga). If you carefully view, it is known that each note is specifically concentrated by rafi (for a expert classical musician no specific concentration is required on note -his command over raga automaticallly gives continuous adaptability to the notes – like ghantasala in the above song) – whereas manna is different – there is continuation efffectiveness in his renditions. Hope I am confusing people with musical inputs (perhaps surajit ji and lalit ji might appreciate and others may find it difficult – sorry I have tried to put as easily as can be understood).
So friends, since the discussion was going on musical notes here, just wanted to share a few thoughts here on the same.
satyanshji..
Agle 2-3 din thoda kaam se bahar ja raha hoon to shayad regularly aa na paaon yahan pe,, waise koshish zaroor karunga.. To is liye ek do chhezein poochh na chahunga aapse aur vitthalji se:
i. Manna De ji ka utilization film singin mein kisne sabse achha kiya. Yeh thoda pl details mein explain kariyega. S D burman, shankar jaikshen, R D Burman, kalyanji anandji ya salil chowdhury???
ii. Aesa kaun sa sangeetkar hai jinko manna de ji ko aur bhi zyada utilization karna chahiye tha?? Us composers ke compositions aur manna ji ke traits ko dhyan mein rakhte hue..
Vitthalji.
Ghantashalaji ne hindi movies mein kyun nahi gaya? Aesa to nahi ho sakta ke unko offers nahi mile.. To na gaane ka karan(reason) kya hai..
Main ek post anilji ko english mein likhne ki koshish kari thi.. Mujhe khud ko sharam aa rahi hai ab woh language padh ke to main hindi mein hi likh raha hoon.. Vitthalji, pl try to understand
SATYANSHJI.
Kal raat se wait kar raha tha posts kab update honge. Ab jakar hue. Aap ne ek sachhi baat boli hai satyanshji ‘kishore is selled short’.kishoreji ko commercialize aur stereotype is had tak kiya gaya hai ke unki gayaki par zyada log nazar nahi dete aur ‘stereotype’ kar dete hai.. Upar se ek aam aadmi kishoreji ke gaane ke saath apne aap ko zyada associate kar leta hai baaki gayakon ke muqable.. To woh aam aadmi ka gayak ban jaate hai aur unke musical pehluon pe baatein kam hone lagti hai. Anilji ko bhi shayad properly malum nahi hoga details mein kishore kumar ke un points par jis pe unhone sawal uthaya hai, magar phir bhi woh ya kapilji bolenge kyunki woh log dekhte hai agar unko aam logon ke muqable mein zyada knowledge dikhana hai to kishore kumar ko promote karna theek nahi, us se unka ‘intellectual value’ kam ho jayegi..
Aur bhi bahut saari baatein karni hai aap se.. Fir kabhi likhunga kaise systematic tarike se kishore kumar ko unmusical prove kiya jata hai communities mein..
Unko harmonium aati thi Satyanshji.. In fact unki bhatiji(daughter of ashok kumar) ne recently ek interview mwin kaha(mere khayal se 4th august pe) ke kishore kumar bahut hi achha piano bajate the aur unko kain saare dhun bajaakar bhi sunaye hai…