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The Divine Voice of ‘Devotional ‘ Kishore

by Arghya Dutta Kishore Kumar is considered to be a “versatile genius” with so many outstanding facets of his artistic personality. If overall as an artist, Kishore is versatile, only in singing domain he is a “versatile singer” in a true nature. Right from romantic to sad to soulful to motivating to semi-classical to qawwali […]

by Arghya Dutta

Kishore Kumar is considered to be a “versatile genius” with so many outstanding facets of his artistic personality. If overall as an artist, Kishore is versatile, only in singing domain he is a “versatile singer” in a true nature. Right from romantic to sad to soulful to motivating to semi-classical to qawwali to patriotic and to ghazals, Kishore had shown his tremendous variety in his god-given voice each and every time he had stood behind the microphone.

Here we discuss, yet another interesting genre of songs from Kishoreda – devotional songs – where he, as always, did tremendous perfection in singing, although he remained underrated always.

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Kishoreda’s first true devotional song was “Leela Aparampar prabhuji teri leela aparampar” which he sang in the movie, Humsafar(1953). The song was composed by the maestro Ustad Ali Akbar Khan sahib. The song requires extensive voice modulation and Kishore sang the song with great feeling. The antara where he goes up with “ O neele ambar pe basaria, teri jay jaykaar…,” the feeling touches hearts.

Next came the classic “Haal tujhe apni duniya ka nazar to aata hoga” from Asha(1957). Composed by one of Kishore’s earliest admirers, C Ramchandra, the song is different, as now, Kishore is complaining to the Almighty for all the misdoingd on planet earth. His voice carries the grief and complaint and very “open throated”.. with “ Maalik tu bhi isko banaake ab pachhtata hoga…” truly depicts a person’s disappointment which he keeps in front of the god,,,

One of my most favourite devotional song from Kishore was in Door Gagan Ki Chhaon Mein(1964)- a song which he himself composed and sang alongwith Manna De. The song “O jag ke rakhwale humein tujh bin kaun sambhaale” is very soulful and touches heart immediately with the divine tune.. Manna starts the song with chorus and Kishore enters very late and immediately leaves a heavy impact with “Kiya sab kuchh tere hawaale, o jag ke rakhwale”.. Manna reportedly praised Kishore openly for the composition as well as the rendition… Shows again, the genius of that man- Kishore Kumar!

Kishore sang many devotional songs in the 70s, when he was on the top spot in playback singing. Chhoti Bahu(1971) saw Kishore rendering “Hey re kanhaiya, kisko kahega tu maiyya..” composed by his long time associates Kalyanji-Anandji.. The song depicts the dilemma of young Kanhaiyya, as he was born in Devki’s house but brought up in Yashda’s home and finding it difficult whom he should call “his actual mother”.. “Jisme tujhko janam diya ya jisne tujhko pala…”, very simple lyrics and simple tune and Kishore’s “open voice” makes this song very close to heart..

Ram ka naam badnaam na karo..” is perhaps the most popular devotional song of Kishore which he sang in Hare Rama Hare Krishna(1971) under Rahul Dev Burman. Youth getting astray are motivated by Kishore with the “tyaag” and “dharma” of Rama and Krishna here with a voice “pioneering” and “comforting”.. The feelings which he brings here also makes the song memorable and timeless. “Ram ko samjho, Krishna ko jaano, neend se jaago o mastano..”, Kishore calls the youth to follow the “true path”of Almighty to come out of darkness.

Mere Jeevan Sathi(1972) is mainly rememberd for the romantic songs of Kishore for Rajesh Khanna, but the song “Aao kanhai mere dham” is very special for those who love Bhajans.. The true passion and anxiety of a bhakt for not getting the darshan of Lord Krishna, is reflected in the anxious voice of Kishore “dekho ho gayi shaam”… Composed by Rahul Dev Burman- a truly sublime bhajan for Kishore..

Naya Din Nayi Raat(1974) saw this time Laxmikant Pyarelal turning to Kishore for a nice melodious and simple Krishna vandana in terms of “Krishna Krishna bolo Krishna…”, influenced by Bengali kirtan- with proficient usage of the instrument “khol”. The song was sung very melodiously by the two legends- Kishore and Lata and is even popular to this day!

In 1974, the newcomer music director Rajesh Roshan handed Kishoreda a very high pitch beautiful devotional number “Jai Bholenath Jai Ho Prabhu” in the movie “Kunwara Baap” where Kishore sang as many as 4 songs … Although, the song might not have left too much of an impact as a “devotional song” in the mind of the audience, it is very much a memorable and a very melodious song of Kishore and Lata..

But the best was yet to come!! Laxmi-Pyare turned again to Kishore with “Prem ka rog laga mujhe yeh”- a classic devotional song on a semi-classical note in Do Premee(1980)! All the three antaras were different from one another and the note changes were complex!! With lot of vigour in his voice, Kishore sang like a truly “magan” bhakta in “Yeh kaanton ke haar hai saare , murari..” This song is still a showcase of Kishore’s multi layered voice!!

The next considerable devotional song was “Bhole O Bhole” from Yarana(1981) composed by Rajesh Roshan, may not be called a “true devotional song” in a proper sense, but had the essence of a troubled mind addressing the God.

The last significant bhajan by Kishore was in Swami Dada(1982) for Rahul Dev Burman with “Ek roop kayin naam man mandir tera dham..”.. Again a simple tune sang with lot of emotions… But bhajans were scarce those days in Hindi Cinema, and this song remained the “swan song” for Kishore as far as devotional songs are concerned…

In 1986, recovering a heart attack, Kishore recorded his last Rabindrasangeet album (Bangla) with music arrangement of his another true admirer- Hemant Kumar.. The typical low note devotional Rabindrasangeet “ Klanti aamaar khama koro prabhu…” (Please forgive my tireness, O Lord..), according to me, is the best devotional song of Kishore …

A man of many moods, Kishore truly proved his versatility in all genres of singing.. Although, his devotional songs cannot fall in the same category of “Man tarapat hari darshan” or “Sukh ke sab saathi”, but the glimpse of his great talent cannot be overlooked in all the devotional songs he had sung!! A truly “divine” voice!

468 Responses to “The Divine Voice of ‘Devotional ‘ Kishore”

  1. 1
    paramjeet Says:

    Welcome back!! Today is guruji’s birthday aur kya badiya tribute hai.. Waise mujhe lagta hai kishoreda ke bhajan kuchh kam nahi hai kisi aur gayakon se.. Krishna krishna bolo krishna ek bahut hi madhur bhajan hai hindi filmon me.. Mujhe lagta hai ATMARAM picture(1979) ka bhajan jo shankarji ne (of shankar jaikishan) kishoreda se gawaa tha woh bhi mention hona chahiye tha…

  2. 2
    piyali Says:

    A great article that shows reflects your devotion toward the great artist!

  3. 3
    Guru Bhakt Says:

    One more song ‘Tirupati Balaji’ from the film Aaj ka MLA can be considered as a bhajan by KK.

    Happy Birthday Guru!

  4. 4
    nirmal thakur Says:

    a real good write & a great way to pay a fitting tribute to the legend…………..great work arghya…..keep it up……….

  5. 5
    B. Seshadri Says:

    Nice tribute to Guru on his birthday. Nothing can beat his magical voice. A complete entertainment package acting, writing, composing, directing, singing you name it he has it. We miss you dada………

  6. 6
    arghya Says:

    Thank you all…

    Will surely come out with more interesting write ups in the future.. Media has done a brilliant job on 4th of August.. The programs especially on Star News, IBN7 and Times Now were very classy.. It is essential younger people know more about such legends..

    Hope the revolution on awareness will continue..

  7. 7
    Sachin Srivastava Says:

    Hi Arghya,

    Very interesting article. And good research on Guru’s devotional songs and your thoughts on each. I would also like to point out the bhojpuri Song Karab koti jatan he bhai was an awesome bhajan in which kishore Da sang like a true bhakt and it moves you..

    Thanks,
    Sachin

  8. 8
    Rahul Nahire Says:

    Hey… Arghya………
    Thanks…….. for revealing the divine side of KKs Voice….

    Love u KK
    thanks to Argya

  9. 9
    Kapil Says:

    Arghya,

    Informative write up by you, but IMO “Bhole O Bhole” doesn’t qualify as a devotional number, and the song from “Swami Dada” by RD is not tuned to the perfection like “Aao kanhayi mere dham”from MJS, so not that much good to listen.

    Also, in “Hey re kanhaiya, kisko kahega tu maiya” tuned by K-A, dada looks more in a masti mood than devotional, rest of the songs are good, but i don’t think Kishore excelled much in this genre. He once requested to sing a bhajan, in some stage show with Lata Jee and he couldn’t recall anyone, finally he resorted to SD Dada’s “Kaun Nagariya jawo re bansi wale” .

    By the way, there is one unreleased Kishore Devotional number,sweetly sang and tuned by Kishore himself, “Baje baje re ..”, i couldn’t recall the lyrics now but the tune was awesome, the movie was an unreleased black n white one from 60’s, song is no more in youtube now, where i heard it first.

  10. 10
    arghya Says:

    On S D Burman’s shradh ceremony, Kishore Kumar sang ” Hari naam ka pyala pee le” with alaap and taans to the perfection with harqats beautifully ornamented.. I did not mention that song as this was not a released song but only a live recording.. “Bhole o bhole” I mentioned very much clearly it might not be called “devotional song in a proper song”.. It appeals me, might not appeal to all.. “Hey re kanhaiya” song was picturized on a “baul”( street singers who roam around villages and sing devotional songs with folkish tunes), perhaps Kishore, henceforth, wanted to retain that “rural folkish touch” by adding some ” light shades” in the song.. That is quite understandable IMO..

    But cannnot disagree more with the statement that ” Kishore did not excel much in this segment”.. Well, he might not be the best, but to be an allrounder you need not be best in all the fields.. Kishore could sing all genres of song and devotional songs are no exception, but he remained under rated and he definitely did justice to all the devotional songs he sang.. Where even blends like kirtan, stuti, vandana, aarti all are included within the bhajan domain with semi classical base also.. And it really does not matter whether he could himself recall his own devotional songs or not as long as what he sang are “classics”..And they are..

    Here is the link of Hari Naam Ka Pyala..

    http://rapidshare.com/files/264683330/Hari_Naam_Ka_Pyala.mp3.html

  11. 11
    Debjyoti Says:

    Kishoreji’s first bhajan was the song subah ki pehli kiran tak,a duet with Manna Dey from the film Andolon(1951).He sang many great devotional songs and is the no 1 singer of devotional songs.The most important thing in Kishoreji’s singing used to be feelings that touched millions of hearts.He sang karaba koti,a bhojpuri bhajan.Baje baje baje re kahin bansuriya is a superb unreleased bhajan from the incomplete film Suhana Geet.In bengali,he sang akash pothe prem korechi he biswanath pouring his devotion towards God Biswanath.It is interesting to note that GOD Himself(i.e Kishore Kumar)had sung great devotional songs.

  12. 12
    Kapil Says:

    —————————————————————————————–
    On S D Burman’s shradh ceremony, Kishore Kumar sang ” Hari naam ka pyala pee le” with alaap and taans to the perfection with harqats beautifully ornamented..
    —————————————————————————————–

    Well, please don’t go overboard, just because you love Kishore and write passionately, Kishore delivered Alaap and taans to the perfection is itself a very immature comment, i can’t recall even one song where Kishore did so, among playback sinegrs, only Manna, Rafi and the two sisters were able to do so.

    Listen to the original of the same by Dada, that soul and innocence in SD’s voice is completely missing in the Kishore’s version.

    Kishore gave us many wonderful songs:, “Hawao ko likhdo, hawaon ke naam”, “Koi lauta de mere bite hue din” etc etc, but classical wasn’t at all his forte.

    On an ending note, here goes another one, Kishore doing SD’s original, and spot on this time, Great Job!
    “Dhire se jana khatiyan mein, Khatmal”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Soz874sWzM8

  13. 13
    Diganta Says:

    Another Very Nice Bhajan Based Song Of Kishore Da Is – Geeton Mein Meri Ganga Ki Dhara From Film GEET GANGA…..Music Director – Sapan-Jagmohan.Guru At His Best…My One Of Favourites..

  14. 14
    arghya Says:

    Kapil

    I have given the link of “hari naam ka pyala” to you.. If you want more songs with alaaps I can.. And there are many aspects of Kishore’s singing which are unique to him.. I dont know what your problem is.. Allergetic to genuine good things about Kishore? If you have not heard his songs with alaaps and harqats, it is your misfortune but do not say //cannot recall even one song where kishore did so//..

    And to tell you exactly, what I said is not at all “overboard”..What is “overboard” if you want defintiion go and ask people about giving Sun and Candle comparisons..

    I dont have anything else to say..

    If you feel allergetic to the genuine praise of a genuinely great singer “WITHOUT COMPARISON”, this platform is just not for you, there are other forums who are expert at this with irrelevant comparisons..

    Pity, real pity..

  15. 15
    Kapil Says:

    Arghya,

    Even i can give you many links to Kishore Aalaap-ing, but remember you mentioned “Taan to perfection”, there is huge difference in Aalaaps and Taans.

    Secondly, you are no one to decide, where should i go and comment, this is a public forum and i am also as much welcome as you are.

    finally, don’t presume things, i am not at all allergic to Kishore – LOL, why should i? He’s my favorite comedian, and of course he was a great artist.

    Thanks and Bye

  16. 16
    arghya Says:

    Kapil,

    I still maintain what I had said, ie, “On S D Burman’s shradh ceremony, Kishore Kumar sang ” Hari naam ka pyala pee le” with alaap and taans to the perfection with harqats beautifully ornamented..”…

    I have never ever commented on every song Kishore was able to do.. Although doing this in every song, I really doubt whether anyone else could do or not.. So, generalized statement was from your side and not me.. LOL

    For that song you said ” Listen to the original of the same by Dada, that soul and innocence in SD’s voice is completely missing in the Kishore’s version” which is again full of SUBJECTIVITY.. What is “soul”? It can bear a definition for you and another for me in diffferent perspective.. Talking of innocence, a man who has just lost his father lie personality a few days back, takes the stage and sings with a feeling and a voice deep with pathos, is for me, devoted enough..

    Except SUBJECTIVITY, of you can point out TECHNICALLY loopholes in Kishore’s singing in that song, it would be beneficial..

    Otherwise we are just beating around the bushes then..

    Thanks

  17. 17
    Debjyoti Says:

    Even RD told in 1985 filmfare interview that Kishoreda is the best singer of classical songs.Guru is really the best in each and every department.

  18. 18
    paramjeet Says:

    kapil bhai….

    kishore ji ne sabhi tarah ke gaanw gaye hai.. Yeh unka bada pan tha ke woh khud aap ne aap ko project nahi karte the.. Jo log sunte the aur pasand karte the usi mein woh khush rehte the.. Unke bete shri amit kumar ji ne ek baar unse poochha tha ki baba, aap ko log theek tarah se recognize nahi karte hai, aap ko bura nahi lagta hai? Unhone kaha, beta- agar mere guzar jaane ke 10 saal baad bhi tum kisi ek aadmi ko mera gaana gaate hue suno, to samajhna mera kalakar jeevan sarthak hua hai.

    Aur aaj 22 saal ho gaye hai aur log kishoreda ko aur bhi zyada chahne lage hai…

    Aap ke nazar mein woh comedian honge, humare liye aur bahut se aur guni kalakaron ke nazar mein woh ek ‘sampoorna kalakaar’ the aur rahenge..

    Bhaktigeeti mein bhi… Main subah unki ‘krishna krishna’ sunke uthta hoon’ fir ‘ leela aparampar prabhu’ aur aarti ke samay, yaani sandhya kaal mein ‘ prem ka rog laga’ sunta hoon jis mein magan ho jaata hoon….

  19. 19
    Kapil Says:

    Arghya,

    Your that comment was even more subjective, the song starts with slight humming followed by good Alaap(Not perfect, as you mentioned :-P) … Expressions by Kishore are good definitely, with few “Harkats”, but buddy, kindly tell me, where are the “Taans” and what is your definition of “Taans”?

    Paramjeet Bhai,

    Mere post ko ek bar fir padhne ka kast karen, maine ye saaf saaf “mention” kiya hai ki Kishore Da “Great Artist”– Mahan Kalakar the, aur mjhe unki “comedy” jada pasand hai, jis tarah aapko gayaki

    Dhanyavaad

  20. 20
    arghya Says:

    Yup.. I was subjective just as you were..[:)]…

    And nice to see now you technically speaking of Kishore’s rendition.. That is what I had asked you to do.. leaving apart the subjective terms of ” innocence” , “soul”, or those obscure words the other people use like “god’s voice”, “rickshawwallah voice”…[:)]

  21. 21
    Lalit Ganapathy Says:

    Kapilji,

    I must protest over your comments, since they appear to lack merit. I have downloaded and listened to the mp3 provided by Arghyaji.

    I would consider myself a fairly competent and well trained Hindustani vocalist who can sing taans reasonably fast (both in aakars and sargam). My mother who was a Sangeet Siromani from Delhi University trained me as a child, and I also took lessons from a senior Ustad in Amir Khan Saheb’s Indore Gharana when I was a youngster, though I modeled my style more on Bhimsen Joshi. Needless to say, most discerning rasikas will agree that very few have faster taans than Shri Bhimsen when he is in top form.

    Now coming to Rafi, he was briefly trained by Bade Ghulam Ali Khan in the the Patiala gharana. The nada purity of the gharana has been called into question by several prominent vocalists on account of exaggerated meends and ornamentation, though you and I cannot presume to judge great people like Bade Ghulam Ali Khan Saheb. It is true that Rafi had a solid grasp over taans, as evidenced in such songs as ‘Man Tadpat’ and ‘Duniya ke Rakhwale’ in Naushad’s ‘Baiju Bawra’, but even he was unable to sing the climactic duel ‘Aaj Gawat Man Mero’ in Raag Desi at the end of the movie, that was instead sung by Ustad Amir Khan and DV Paluskar. (incidentally, for those who may care, the song was rendered brilliantly by a gentleman named Parthiv Gohil in SaReGaMa, with Pandit Jasraj heaping praise on him).

    So Rafi, for all his technical competence cannot be said to have been a past master at alaaps and akaars/taans. In fact the only Hindi playback singer who could execute lightning fast taans in the classical sense was Manna Dey (listen to ‘Ketaki Gulab Juhi’, from ‘Basant Bahar’ that he sings with Bhimsen Joshi). it may interest you to learn that my own Hindustani vocal guru used to call Rafi a ‘crooner’ – so much for his being “technically competent!”

    Now coming to Kishore – it is true I have never heard him sing fast “taans” either in akaar or in sargam. For example the famous sargam interlude in “Ke pag ghungroo” from ‘Namak Halal’ was executed by another classical vocalist Bappi Lahiri located.

    But my friend, there is an inside joke amongst us classical vocalists – and that joke is “Kishore Kumar”. We can sing Rafi songs, we can sing Hemant songs (any song from ‘Anarkali’ for example), we can sing Mukesh, BUT we have a horrible time singing Kishore songs, because they can never be satisfactorily replicated. Ask any competent and classically trained vocalist, and he will tell you the same thing. That is why classical vocalists LOVE and respect Kishore, because we see in him undeniable (and original) genius that defies and surpasses every vocal music rule we have ever learned.

    I have NEVER encountered a competent classical vocalist who disliked Kishore, though several have expressed misgivings about Rafi. It almost appears as though everyone who THINKS they know good classical music considers Rafi superior technically, while those of us who actually put in the hours and hours of practice and riyaz KNOW for a fact that Kishore is the better singer!

    We also know Kishore regarded the great KL Saigal as his manasaguru, and that he could sing every Saigal song note-for-note (the way Eddie van Halen could play Clapton’s solos on ‘Crossroads’ note for note before he began tapping), but we also know that Kishore made up his own rules as he went along (remember that bit about someone trying to tell Beethoven not to compose in parallel fifths?). We marvel at Kishore’s voice, his purity, his sense of composition, structure, and sahitya, and his exceptional and unique technique and musical sensibility.

    We can sing ‘Duniya ke Rakhwale’, ‘Man Tadpat’, ‘Bhay Bhanjana’, ‘Sur Na Saje’, but we can never sing ‘Kuch to Log Kahenge’, ‘Yeh Kya Hua’, ‘O Majhi Re’, ‘Main Shair Badnaam’ they way Kishore Kumar sang them, even if we practice for hours and hours, and for several years together.

    That is what makes Kishore a genius.

    If people still have doubts about just how astonishingly brilliant Kishore Kumar was, and how highly musically literate people thought of him, right from 1948 when he recorded Khemchand Prakash’s ‘Marne ki Dauen’ in the movie ‘Ziddi’, and right through four decades, they only have to read the blog whose URL link I supply below, from a rather brilliant musician and writer/lecturer who incidentally also happens to be royalty.

    His Highness Price of Travancore, Sri Rama Varma

    http://ramavarma.yolasite.com/a-tribute-to-the-legendary-kishore-kumar.php

  22. 22
    paramjeet Says:

    Adarniya shri Lalitji…

    Thank you sir for this great writing.
    hari naam ka pyala mein sangeet ke textbook mein jise ‘taaan’ kehte hai- sargam ranging of octaves progressively- woh shayad nahi tha magar baaki ke ‘alankaran’, jaise ki alaap( ‘aa’ se hota hai) aur harqat puri tarah se isko ek ragatnak bhajan banaya hai..

    Aur yeh baat shastriya sangeet ke diggaj bhi jaante hai jo jo cheezein kishoreda kar sakte the woh unke samakaleen gayak nahi kar sakte the.. isi liye log kishoreda ke gaane sirf gaate hai magar ‘pran’ nahi la sakte..

    Prince Rama Verma ki baat chali hai to bata doon woh kishoreda ke ek bade chahnewale hai.. Unhone kishoreda ka ek madhur geet ‘jagmag jagmag karta nikla’ gaya tha jo bahut hi sundar tha…

  23. 23
    arghya Says:

    Where is our Surajitda, beloved Mr. Surajit Bose nowadays?? I really miss him here..

    Admin: Can he be located?

  24. 24
    Kapil Says:

    Lalit Ji,

    What exactly do yo protest? i guess you have diverted the topic to somewhere else, i was just asking Arghya for Kishore Aalaap-ing and Taan-ing -LOL , BTW, good to know that you are a classical vocalist.

    Hmmm .. So you could eaisly render “Sur na saje” or “Dunia na bhaye mohe” ,songs having so much variations, but fail to render “O Maajhi re”, “mukhra” of which is composed in just 3-4 notes, sounds pretty strange and hilarious, could you please explain why?

    I don’t agree on your Manna Vis-a-Vis Rafi theory, both of them were Light classical singers, well versed equally, either you listen “Ketki Gulab Juhi” or “Baat chalat nayi chunri”, in both cases, pure classical singers are clear winners, however, keeping the aspect of light classical in mind, both Manna and Rafi did faboulus job.

    IMO K.L. Sehgal,Rafi and Lata were the epitomes of playback singing, followed by other greats, including Kishore ..

    Arghya,

    Listen KLS or SDB with the unbiased ears, and you would definitely feel actual soul and innocence,i was referring to, and by the way, you were the first to give the subjective views, i wasn’t .. 😛

  25. 25
    pradeep Says:

    Yes Arghya, I think he (Surajit Bose) can be reached.

    Admin.

  26. 26
    arghya Says:

    //Listen KLS and SDB with unbiased ears//

    That is interesting.. How do you know I have not? Have you heard Kundan Lal Sehgal’s ” Aami tomay joto suniyechilem gaan” sang in 1939 in the movie Jeeban Maran? After that song Rabindranath Tagore- the original creator of the song himself sent compliments to K L Saigal for such rendering.. Listen to that song, you would know..

    And yes, I was “subjective” in the article because i feel so.. But to criticize someone, you cannot be “subjective”..You have to be concrete solid what you are getting it.. With so many subjectivities also, I made it clear in the article that Kishore’s devotional songs are not in the same class of “Man tarpat” but still you kept gabbling like “he did not excel”.. Now for your definition what is “excelling” I do not know..

    //MO K.L. Sehgal,Rafi and Lata were the epitomes of playback singing, followed by other greats, including Kishore .//

    No one should argue with what you feel, you keep your opinions.. But then subjectively discard a singer is not good spirit at all. You like others more, even I am a big time fan of all of them but to say some untrue things about Kishore is ill spirit…

  27. 27
    Lalit Ganapathy Says:

    Kapilji,

    It is your comments I find hilarious.

    You said I “deflected the topic” and wondered how I “fail to render “O Maajhi re”, “mukhra” of which is composed in just 3-4 notes – sounds pretty strange and hilarious, could you please explain why?”

    I did not deflect attention from the topic. The only reason I would try to “deflect attention from the topic” would be out of sympathy for you, to avoid you any further embarrassment on this page.

    I deliberately chose “O Majhi Re” because superficial musicians like you will find it an “easy song” without bothering to examine it closely, which is exactly what you have proven.

    Try singing those 3-4 notes in the mukhda of “O Majhi Re”, and also the 4 notes in the antara “sa-ga-(re)ga-(re)sa” 3 times in perfect succession the way Kishore does at high pitch (high C to E), with complete prana control and such a perfect nada before presuming to instruct me on shastriya sangeet and “variation”.

    I can almost guarantee you will be unsuccessful and will fall flat on your face. RD Burman wept after listening to Kishore’s recording at the beauty of Kishore’s interpretation.

    You asked what I protest against. I protest against the shallow tone of your discourse, and find your superficial understanding of Kishore a joke, as do most other serious classical musicians on this page.

    It is YOU who is diverting attention away with weak, superficial arguments and individual bias, which is contemptible.

    Thank you Adarniya Paramjeetbhai. Kai sangeetkar aise hote hain jo ati saral sangeet to kathin pesh karne me kaamyaab hote hain – Kishoreji ek aise adbhut gayak the, jo kathin gaanon ko aasan bana dete the. Theek isi vajah ke kaaran, main unko sarvshresth maanta hun.

  28. 28
    Anil Says:

    Lalitji:
    Your comments make interesting reading, though I can’t agree with a lot of them.
    It’s perfectly acceptable if you consider Kishore better than Rafi but when you go on to say ‘we (all classical vocalists) love and respect Kishore more or that there aren’t any classical vocalists who doesn’t really care much for Kishore’, these are very tall claims.
    I’m trained in Western music, may be as rigorously as you are in Hindustani classicals and I have a fair grasp of Karnatic classicals (being a South Indian). Having listened to many uninhibited (and often untrained) singers in English, Kishore doesn’t fascinate me much (I stress ‘much’, for I like him in a lot of songs). His voice (though very appealing to the Hindustani vocalists’ ears) is a bit too rough and a bit too noisy for my comfort (though it was relatively better when he was younger). His vocal range (a deciding factor in Western music) is nothing much to speak about. Even his yodelling is no big deal, once you listen to some of the Western yodellers.
    Coming back to the opinions of the classical vocalists, since you have mentioned about Mr. Ravi Varma, let me say that some of the biggest known names from that State (Mr. Ravi Varma is not all that well-known in Kerala) swear by the name of Mohammed Rafi; they include Yesu Das and Jayachandran (the big 2 of Malayalam film music) not to mention the great music directors like Illyaraja, M S Viswanathan, A R Rehman, Johnson and others.
    As Kapilji has pointed out in his post, there seems to be something dubious in your statement that you can sing all the Rafi songs well and not Kishore’s ‘kuch to log kahenge’ etc. It would be more correct to say you can sing ‘man tarpat..’ without going off-key while you cannot bring in the spontaneity of ‘kuch to log..’. If you can’t sing ‘kuch to log…’, there is no way in this world that you can half-sing a ‘barbaad-e-mohabbat..’ or ‘ye duniya usiki…’ or a ‘kahin bekhayal hokar..’.

  29. 29
    Kapil Says:

    “but to say some untrue things about Kishore is ill spirit… ”

    Arghya, can’t say for Kishore-Bhakts, but the universal truth, something you need to know, is that Kishore is revered as a “Sampoorn-Kalakaar”, not “Sampoorn Gayak” … and not at all as a “Bhajan Gayak” or “Classical Gayak”

    And it was your subjective analysis, like Kishore rendered Taans or Alaaps to the perfection,that was so untrue and can’t be proved practically.

    Unilke you,i praise Kishore Da for his true genious only.

  30. 30
    paramjeet Says:

    yeh biasedness ki baat kishore kumar ke upar hi kyun aati hai? Doosre gayakon ko taarif karo,unko bhagwan bolo aur unke forum mein kishore kumar ko ghatiya bolo to koi kuchh nahi kehta… Itna irsha kyun?

  31. 31
    Lalit Ganapathy Says:

    Anilji,

    Along with Hindustani vocal, and Carnatic (since I am Tamil Brahmin Iyer, whose household revebrated with kutcheri’s and spools of MD Ramanathan, KV Narayanaswami, and Nedunoori – notice I haven’t even begun mentioning Madurai Mani, Ariyakudi, GNB, or Maharajapuram), I think I have sufficient competencies in neraval, alapanai, and ragam-taanam-pallavi as well. Our household would bristle over Music Academy Sadas Debates and Sambamurthi’s treatment of Melakartas and Katapayaadi formulae. Enough about Carnatic.

    I also have an Advanced Diploma in Classical Guitar from the Royal Schools of Music, UK from 1997 (I have been playing/singing western classical music since childhood both instrumentally and as a tenor), and am a trained western classical musician who can claim to have competencies in counterpoint and harmony. Trust me, I know what I’m talking about when I speak of Kishore – I don’t have to rope in the scores to the Art of Fugue, Wagner’s Ring Cycle, or Shostakovich’s symphonies to demonstrate to you my competence. Let me leave it at that.

    As for Yesudas, he was a Semmangudi student – so I don’t expect Kishore to be able to sing Jab Deep Jale Aana – which I can sing quite well, as in fact I can most of the songs you mentioned including “barbaad-e-mohabbat..’ or ‘ye duniya usiki…’.

    I don’t need to further “deflect attention from the topic” (in the words of an erudite commenter on this board), by mentioning Rahman, Ilayaraja, MS Vishwanathan, TM Soundararajan, or Ghantasala – but let me do so, just for your sake.

    I quoted Rama Varma for his Catholicity of musical spirit, not to impress you with name-dropping.

    There is nothing dubious or underhanded about my statements. Take my word for it – despite your claims to possess competencies in musical idioms, both western and Indian (which I doubt), and despite your not being “impressed” by Kishore Kumar, he remains unmatched in playback singing history. That is my final and considered opinion, based on my rather modest abilities, and after careful consideration.

    Contrary to your comical claim, I do in fact sing Malkauns (Hindolam) rather well, as indeed I do Darbari Kanada – and hopefully as an extension “Man Tadpat” and “Duniya Ke Rakhwale” with their 2 to 2 1/2 octaves — tell me, my friend, can you?

  32. 32
    paramjeet Says:

    anilji
    Aap ne bola ‘ there is hardly anything to talk about kishore’ range’

    Bolne se pehle soch lo kya bol rahe ho.. Ho sakta hai jaha rafi sahab ki competency thi, kishore ki wahan pe nahi thi..

    Aap ne western music suna hai.. Thoda sa yeh bhi jaan le ke himdustani sangeet mein ‘udara’ ya ‘low octave’ ka mahatva kya hota hai.. Jis din samajh mein aaye tab baat karna..

    Waise lalitji behetar bata payenge aapko range ke baare mein.. 55 saal tak ki umar tak kishore low octave mein ‘ma’ hit karte gaye hai.. Aap ke rafi sahab 55 saal tak jiye aur aakhir aakhir mein low octave mein ‘dha’ tak hit karne mein awaaz badal jaaati thi unki,,

    Logon ki izzat karna aur guni kalakaron ki samman karna sikhiye janab.. Ulta pulta baatein yahan pe mat kariye..

  33. 33
    Anil Says:

    Lalitji:
    I doubt your competencies in all these forms of music as much as you doubt mine. Anyway nice of you to add ‘my modest abilities’ at the end of that pretty bold statement proclaiming Kishore to the best.
    If you want my take, I’d say Rafi is the undisputed monarch of HFM and Kishore is not his nearest rival. I’d rather rank Manna Dey and Talat ahead as singers per se, though Kishore is a better play backer than both of them. Off course my ranking is based on my very modest abilities.
    I’d love to hear your version of ‘hai duniya usiki’ and ‘barbaad-e-mohabbat..’, not to subject them to scrutiny, rather I hope to listen to some decent rendition of these songs, I haven’t listened to any, so far, from anyone (Sonu included).
    I was listening to ‘O manjhi re’ and I can’t find anything technically difficult to execute, actually I was singing along and I didn’t fall on my face or pass out or anything and the high E is a pretty easy note to hit and sustain (even for a baritoner).
    Here’s the original of the song
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWjFIPkCnNs
    Here’s one youngster singing it
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTWvhhu034M
    He doesn’t fall flat either (though he goes a little flat at the lower notes).
    Here’s one classical vocalist (not a famous one) singing ‘kuch to log..’.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuCnuRnmaAk
    He’s note-perfect, no issues for him singing it, technically and if anything he is clearer at the lower notes than the original singer.

  34. 34
    P. Haldar Says:

    post 27

    Dear Lalit ji, I don’t have the kind of knowledge that you have, but I would like to make a comment. There’s a CD of classical songs from Hindi film songs that was released by HMV featuring 16 singers (see below). One singer is conspicuous by his absence. I think HMV should hire you as an advisor to make sure that such mistakes are not made in the future. Also, I’d eagerly wait to hear your version of “man tadpat darshan”. With your background and training, I’m sure you can easily beat Rafi.


    This set of 2 compact discs features 32 Classic songs from Hindi Films.

    Tracks :

    Sur Na Saje – Film : Basant Bahar – Manna Dey
    Madhuban Mein Radhika Nache – Film : Kohinoor – Mohd. Rafi
    Jhanak Jhanak Payal Baje – Film : JJPB – Khan Sahib Amir Khan
    Prem Jogan Ban Ke – Mughle-E-Azam- Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali
    Prrchho Na Kaisa Maina – Filom : Meri Surat Teri Ankhen – Manna Dey
    Bole Re Papihra – Film : Guddi – Vani Jairam
    Sanware Saware Kahe Mose – Anuradha – Lata Mangeshkar
    To Hai Mere Prem Devta – Film : Kalpana – Mohd. Rafi & Manna Dey
    Aayo Kahan Se Ghanshyam – Buddha Mil Gaya – Manna Dey & Archana
    Ajun Na Aaye Balamwa – Film : Sanjh Aur Savera – Mohd. Rafi & Suman Kalyanpur
    Laga Chunari Mein Daag – Film : Dil Hi To Hai – Manna Dey
    O Sajana Barkha Bahar Aayi – Film : Parakh – Lata Mangeshkar
    Ketaki Gulab Juhi – Film : Basant Bahar – Manna Dey & Bhimsen Joshi
    Beeti Na Bitai Raina – Film : Parichay : Lata Mangeshkar & Bhupinder
    Humen Tumse Pyar Kitna – Film : Kudrat – Parveen Sultana
    Kaise Samjhaoon – Film : Suraj – Mohd. Rafi & Asha Bhosle

    CD 2
    Babul Mora Naihar Chhooto Jaye – Film : Aavishkar – Jagjit Singh & Chitra Singh
    Jo Tum Todo Piya – Jhanak Jhanak Payal Baje – Lata Mangeshkar
    Jhanak Jhanak Tori Baje – Film – Mere Huzoor – Manna Dey
    Garjat Barsat Sawan Aayo Re – Film : Barsat Ke Rat – Suman Kalyanpur & Kamal Barot
    Re Man Sur Nein Ga – Film : Lal Patthar – Manna Dey & Asha Bhosle
    Radhika Tune Bansari Churaiya – Film : Beti Bete – Mohd. Rafi
    Tere Naina Talash Karen – Film : Talash – Manna Dey
    Hansne Ke Chah Ne – Film Aavishkar – Manna Dey
    Ka Karoon Sajani – Film : Dooj Ka Chand – Manna Dey
    Rasik Balma – Film : Chori Chori – Lata Mangeshkar
    Chham Chham Baje Re Payaliya
    Sawan Aaya Ya Na Aaya – Film : Dil Diya Dard Liya – Asha Bhosle & Mohd. Rafi
    Lapak Jhapak Too Aare Badarwa – Film : Boot Polish – Manna Dey
    Mainon Mein Badra Chhaye – Film : Mera Saaya – Lata Mangeshkar
    Jare Badra Bairi Ja – Film : Bahana – Lata Mangeshkar

  35. 35
    arghya Says:

    Post No. 34

    Haldar ji..

    Even Yesudas and S P Balasubramanium are missing in that collection.. Songs like ” Aa aa re mitwa” from Anand Mahal and ” Jab deep jale aana” from Chitchor are class apart classical numbers IMHO..

    I am not saying Kishore’s songs should be included in that HMV album also.. But my point is that collection cannot be taken as a benchmark ..

    You can very well continue the discussion with other technicalities please..

    Paramjit.

    Yes, Kishore’s low octave control was definitely the best among all male singers. Listen to his Rabindrasangeet “Saghana Gahan Raatri” where there is such a low breath space and he hits “ma” on the lowest octave while he renders “jorichhe shrabana dhara”..

  36. 36
    Srivas Says:

    Lalit ji and Anil Ji and others.

    Mohd. rafi and kishore kumar certainly are great singers in hindi film world and both have very great fan following by numerous fans till date. But I think, in terms of various versatile talents, besides playback singing, kishore was ahead of rafi. Despite lacking in technical talent, kishore composed music, was a fine playback singer and had other talents – comedy, acting, entertainer etc. etc. wherein he has no comparison. Kishore too had sung songs requiring technical ability and I do not think kishore is anyway second to rafi in H F M.

    Regarding classical filmy renditions, excepting manna dey, in my view, both rafi and kishore were not that great as they were in many of their other mind blowing songs. Honestly speaking, to really have a perfect grasp of classical filmy renditions, one has to look only at the southern film world and the S F M easily overshines H F M in this particular area.

    I too am a trained carnatic musician with more than 18 years of experience in the field. I am in complete agreement with Mr. Surajit Bose, a hindusthani classical musician in these forums (and also for his posts in Mohd rafi forum in true voice) & also one Mr. Khan, another hindusthani classical musician claiming to be having 35 plus years experience in classical music in mohdrafi forum, stating that the filmy number siva sankari in darbari kannada raga by ghantasala, very easily scores over all other filmy classical renditions of all playback singers by huge margins and there is no filmy classical composition in comparison to siva sankari of ghantasala. (including o duniya ke rakwale – mohd rafi)

    Mr. Surajit bose & Mr. Khan write in mohdrafi.com – Ghantasala very clearly outshines both rafi and manna dey & others in semi classical and classical renditions. And in fact it is true. And another point, does anybody know that ghantasala had challenged the great semmangudi ( as you say k j yesudas learnt under him) once, and semmangudi himself had to surrender to ghantasala’s version of specialisation. Semmangudi was asked by ghantasala to sing a classical composition in a style which should not fall short in any way in terms of technical ability or classical merits, but at the same time it should not be in classical style. Despite semmangudi’s talent, he fell short. Ghantasala made classical music more attractive – perhaps in filmy style ? (to be appreciated even by a lay man) , without sacrificing any of the ingredients of classical music. His was a pure classical rendition for classical musicians and a complete attractive lay man appreciated song for any other people. In both the cases, the technical ability and classical base remained intact. Mr. Khan, though claiming to be a hindusthani musician correctly catches this point, as he writes, without compromising his classical style, ghantasala creates a filmy effect. Most people including yesudas etc. when singing classical numbers, sound classical or shift to filmy style, but rarest of rare cases put up a perfect show creating a mixture of both. Next in line, To some extent rafi could create a mixture of both, whereas manna dey fell short of filmy style in such renditions.

    Here is the song siva sankari and in my view, there is no song which can match this song in classical style, speed, taans & aalaaps, high pitch, composition and more so in classical mixed with filmy style without compromising any of the classical attributes. ( A REAL TREAT TO ALL MUSIC LOVERS)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJYTyKkZx8s

    (MOST SURPRISING THING : This song was recorded only in one take by ghantasala in 1961 and the music director was pendyala nageshwara rao, one of the great music directors of telugu film world. )

    As Lalith ji says, kishore certainly had a specialised talent and I think he cannot be underestimated. Excepting a limitation for technical ability and training, I think kishore was a specialised singer and as I had already written earlier, in one of the forums here, KISHORE WAS AN EXCEPTIONAL SINGER, who despite lacking in technical ability, HAD THE EXCEPTIONAL TALENT TO SING A SONG (INCLUDING SONGS THAT REQUIRED TECHNICAL ABILITY) EASILY WITHOUT MUCH PRACTISE WHICH TALENT MANY SINGERS DID NOT POSSESS and this makes kishore certainly an exceptional talent in HFM, to which extent in comparison to kishore, I think even the great rafi falls short.

  37. 37
    paramjeet Says:

    adarniya srivasji/Lalitji..

    Kuchh outsider yahan pe kishore ke range ke upar bhi prashna poochhe hai.. Agar aap mere se sahmat hai ki range ka matlab sirf high pitch hi nahi low pitch bhi hai to thodasa kishoredada ke range vis a vis other singers(or only THAT SINGER) ko bhi compare karein..

  38. 38
    Kapil Says:

    Friends,

    As i mentioned earlier also, if someone, in the guise of being classical expert, says “Sur na saje” is easy to render compared to “O Majhi Re”, then there is something for every one,to laugh out loud.

    Mr. Lalit, please provide us the notations of the whole “O maajhi re” .. then i will provide you the notations of the just “Mukhda” of “Sur na saje” right from Alaap.. as just “Mukhda” of that song itself consists of more *notes* and *Variations* than whole “O Maajhi Re”

    And yeah, i also know many classical musicians from Delhi, most of them don’t even consider 70’s the music, all of them are more or less, immersed into the 40’s,50’s and 60’s , you are the only exception i have seen so far….

    Arghya,
    As you are asking other of technicalities, it would be great if you give your definition of perfect taans first

  39. 39
    arghya Says:

    Kapil

    //but the universal truth, something you need to know//

    How can some handful headstrong people’s blind and biased and myopic view on music can be termed as “universal truth”? Yes, definitely, Kishore is not known as a Bhajan Singer, and that is why the need of the article to let younger generation know what he was.. Let them hear the songs and they would make their own opinion( they are already making, look at the response)..

    And going through responses, I also can make out none of his devotional songs sound to peopl crap.. Your and some of your friends’ opinion in some other forum is NOT UNIVERSAL TRUTH..

  40. 40
    Kapil Says:

    Mr. Lalit,

    In the guise of being classical expert,more you write, more funny you become … Kindly notice that only “Mukhda” along with Aalaap of “Sur Na Saje” has the more *notes* and *Variations* than whole “O Majhi Re” song. Now if you believe that songs having less notes and variations are tougher to sing, then, i tell you, there is a serious flaw in your own Classical “Taaleem”.

    Only tough part of the song is, when Kishore touch those higher notes “O Maajhi re… Maajhi re” — “Ga Ga Ma, Re Ni Sa”, else the song is nothing tough, when compared to “Sur na saje”.

  41. 41
    Lalit Ganapathy Says:

    Anilji,

    You said regarding someone else singing “Kuch to log Kahenge” after furnishing link below:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuCnuRnmaAk

    “He’s note-perfect, no issues for him singing it, technically and if anything he is clearer at the lower notes than the original singer.”

    With all respect to the singer and your superficial comments, the rendition is a JOKE! I should think even with our mutual modest abilities, the both of us can do better, even if our versions fail to capture the sheer timber and pathos of Kishore’s version, our technique notwithstanding.

    There are those who sing Kishore, and there are those who sing Kishore.

    Ditto with “O Majhi Re” link you supplied with Abhijeet. He and Kumar Sonu cannot even BEGIN to approximate Kishore’s sheer timber and tone in the song. It is a bit like Rafi’s crooning and lackluster version of “Tum Bin Jaaon Kahan” from “Pyaar ka Mausam”.

    Certainly we can try to imitate Kishore in “O Majhi Re” and other songs, the way smuggled goods from China try to imitate the original.

    Like I said before, there are those who can sing Kishore, and there are those who can sing Kishore.

    Really, they should try and do this before talking of timber, tone, and technique. I am a good singer, possible a very good singer, but I can never do what Kishore does in under a minute with that voice, in the link I supply below. Disregard the “GOD” bit, though it has its merits.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVBwAAeIo3g

    Your “take”, as you put it, confesses to paucity of discrimination – Rafi croons without dimension. I really cannot say more in the matter. All the meends and aakars in the world cannot hide that fact.

    I respect Manna Dey’s technique, but his voice doesn’t project, or carry as much power as Kishore’s. What you consider to be “jarring” in Kishore’s voice is actually what sets him apart from others, including Rafi and Manna Dey. Only Saigal is better in subtle meends.

    My considered opinion regarding Kishore’s superiority over others stands, regardless of how many others choose to jump into the fray here with you.

    PS Haldarji – The loss is HMV’s and it’s dwindling share of listeners. If someone fails to recognize superior technical (and classical) worth in Kishore, it is because of petty, preconceived bias regarding what is “classical” and what is not.

  42. 42
    Lalit Ganapathy Says:

    Kapilji,

    Your lack of true musical knowledge is a joke.

    Shastriya sangeet, especially vocal music, is not about how many machine-gun notes you can stuff into a musical composition, or how many pointless variations one can add in an antara.

    It is about how to seek out and latch on to a pure nada, remain true to the source of prana, not compromise the larynx when the sound escapes the mouth, and make the sur last over long stretches with sustained force, tone, resonance, and timber. Anything else is real ‘harkat’. Kishore could do it. Rafi could not without sounding contrived. Manna Dey could do it, but tone and timber were weak. Saigal of course, was past master.

    I don’t really know in what classical circles you move around in Delhi, though if your shallow comments are any indication, they are probably not worth my time.

    Kindly educate yourself before commenting.

  43. 43
    Anil Says:

    Lalitji:
    I clicked your link with excitement, hoping to hear something out of the world and what do I see/ hear? The usual Kishore tomfoolery! He displays good voice control (but that is taken for granted of a reputed film singer), what else is there on display? You may not be able to replicate this or Pandit Bhimsen Joshi may not, but any (I repeat any) musically gifted fellow with a flair for innovation can do it… Actually there was a ‘Kataprasangam’ (a typical Keralite art form) artist who used to begin his shows with a similar self composed song. It’s good to see your comment on the video and I appreciate your honesty, there are people here and in several other musical forums who projects themselves as neutral music lovers before implementing their agenda of hailing Kishore and dissing Rafi. You are not one of them, you know what you stand for and you want the world to know what you stand for.
    I take it that your take on Rafi is meant to be tagged with ‘according to my modest ability’. If it is not, I just wish to inform you that there are better judges around.
    There is something in your comments which I don’t find logical; How can my ranking of singers ‘confesses to paucity of discrimination’ (very lyrical, let me admit) while yours don’t. Am I to take it that your diploma and greater training makes your opinion ‘the infallible truth’ and anything not corresponding to your opinion ‘discriminating’?
    I am not going to respond with what I think of Kishore’s renditions. I don’t need to and I don’t think myself qualified to assess a singer who is loved by millions.
    I don’t think I’d be able to better the fellow who sang ‘Kuch to log…’ in the clip I provided, surely not in the scale he sang it. May be in the original scale I might give it a try. Please add this to my request list, I’d love to hear your version (now that you have admitted you can actually sing this song).
    If you notice carefully, I never said that this youngsters or Abhijeet Sawant equalled or rivalled Kishore’s original versions, I just wanted to disprove your claims that “O Manjhi re’ was too tough a song to humanly sing and that a trained vocalist can’t sing ‘kuch to log…’.

  44. 44
    Lalit Ganapathy Says:

    Kapilji,

    Now that you mentioned humor, I would like to take you up on your comment:

    You said:

    — “Mr. Lalit, please provide us the notations of the whole “O maajhi re” .. then i will provide you the notations of the just “Mukhda” of “Sur na saje” right from Alaap.. as just “Mukhda” of that song itself consists of more *notes* and *Variations* than whole “O Maajhi Re”” —

    In fact, Kapilji, out of respect for you I will do one better – I will provide you the notes to BOTH “O Majhi Re” and to “Sur Na Saje” (mukhdas and antaras for both), on condition I be monetarily compensated for my efforts.

    I may lack Kishore’s voice and technique, but mercifully possess all of his business acumen.

    At last count (just a ballpark figure you understand) there were around 100 notes altogether in ‘O Majhi Re’ (meend inclusive), and around 250 in ‘Sur Na Saje’ (alaaps, meends, and ‘sangeet man ko’ section, inclusive) – that makes it a grand total of 350 notes.

    Let’s say Rs 100 a note? – making it Rs 35,000 for my efforts? Of course that would be in sargam – if you wanted treble clef staff (or possibly, soprano in your case) please make certain to add 50% surcharge, and possibly another 50% on top of the surcharge for any key transposition.

    Alas, I don’t have a faithful Abdul to ensure full and prompt payment, so it must perforce be through my paypal account!

  45. 45
    P. Haldar Says:

    post 41

    Lalit ji, you are absolutely right. Someone should request SAREGAMA (HMV’s new avatar) to avail of your expertise in the classical field. With some initiative on your part, even Ustad Bade Ghulam Ali Khan saab will start turning in his grave. By the way, I did some search on bhajan albums and found an album released by SAREGAMA titled “Golden Collection of Bhajans from Films” (see below). Here also you’ll notice the preconceived biases of the music companies. Are you willing to lend your expertise in the bhajan field too? In my opinion, your Tamil Iyer background would be an invaluable asset.

    ——————

    Tracklist of “Bhajans From Films” CD 1
    1. Man Tarpat Hari Darshan Ko Aaj Mohd. Rafi
    2. Tu Pyar Ka Sagar Hai Manna Dey & Chorus
    3. Jai Jagdish Hare Hemant Kumar & Geeta Dutt
    4. Ghunghat Ke Pat Khol Geeta Roy
    5. Aan Milo Shyam Sanwre Geeta Dutt & Manna Dey
    6. Insaf Ka Mandir Hai yeh Mohd. Rafi & Chorus
    7. Bhay Bhanjana Bandana Sun Hamari Manna Dey
    8. Aye Malik Tere Bandhe Hum Lata Mangeshkar & Chorus
    9. Brindaban Ka Krishna Kanhaiya Lata Mangeshkar & Mohd. Rafi
    10. Darshan Do Ghanshyam Hemant Kumar, Sudha Malhotra & Chorus
    11. Na Main Dhan Chahun Geeta Dutt & Sudha Malhotra
    12. Jyoti Kalash Chhalke Lata Mangeshkar
    13. Man Mohan Man Mein Mohd. Rafi, Suman Kalyanpur & Batish
    14. Allah Tero Naam Ishwar Tero Naam Lata Mangeshkar & Chorus
    15. Jai Raghunandan Jai Siyaram Mohd. Rafi, Asha Bhosle & Chorus
    16. Prabhu Tero Naam Lata Mangeshkar
    17. Radhike tune Bansari Chooraiye Mohd. Rafi
    18. Jot Se Jot Jagake Chalo Mukesh & Chorus
    19. Tora Man Darpan Asha Bhosle
    20. Kanha Kanha Aan Padi Main Lata Mangeshkar

    Tracklist of “Bhajans From Films” CD 2
    1. Om Jai Jagdish Hare Mahendra Kapoor, Brij Bhushan, Shyama Chittar & Chorus
    2. Ram Krishan Hari Manna Dey
    3. Ishwar Allah Tere Naam Mohd. Rafi & Chorus
    4. Sanjh Savere Lata Mangeshkar
    5. Raghupati Raghav-Ram Dhun Mahendra Kapoor, Manhar & Chorus
    6. Sukh Ke Sab Saathi Mohd. Rafi
    7. Kanha Re Kanha Lata Mangeshkar
    8. Bada Natkhat Hai Yeh Lata Mangeshkar
    9. Kanhaiya Kanhaiya Tujhe Aana Padega Mahendra Kapoor & Chorus
    10. Tu Hi Sagar Tu Hi Kinara Sulakshana Pandit
    11. Main To Aarti utaroon Usha Mangeshkar & Chorus
    12. Shyam Teri Bansi Aarti Mukherjee & Jaspal Singh
    13. Bole Radha Shyam Deewani Lata Mangeshkar
    14. Yashomati Maiya Se Bole Nandalala Lata Mangeshkar
    15. Satyam Shivam Sundaram (Part 1) Lata Mangeshkar & Chorus

  46. 46
    arghya Says:

    Kapil..

    Yo have taken perfection as “something which cannot be bettered” and my point is “something which is flawless”.. So, in the alaap of Kishore in “Hari naam ka pyala”, you meant to say the alaap could be bettered by someone else and I proclaimed ” the alaap did not have any technical loopholes”.. Kishore’s semi classical numbers could definitely be ornamented better by other trained singers( just like other singers’ comedy songs could be bettered by Kishore), but whatever Kishore sang, “DID YOU FIND TECHNICAL LOOPHOLES”

    I did not find any loopholes:

    1. In the alaap of “des chhuraye bhes chhuraye”
    2. In the “bol taan” of “Payalwali Dekhna”
    3. In the harqats of “Rimjhim gire sawan”, “Yun neend se woh jaane chaman” and “Prem ka rog laga”.
    4. In the alaap, taan and harqat of “Log kehte hai main sharabi hoon”..

    So, for me they are “perfect”! Yes, the taan in “log kehte hai main sharabi” could have been bettered by a more trained classical singer perhaps with more “tempo” and “mishrit taan” inculcated.. But what Kishore did , for me, was just brilliant.. Hypothtically what could have happened is not in my agenda.. Perhpas the singer could have ornamented the song more but perhaps would not have emoted the emotions of Amitabh that well( subjectivity, lol..).. That is why that discussion I keep aside..

    Now, untrue things are those which I hear from other forums about Kishore:

    1. A singer who could only yoodlee doodlee because he did not know any other forms of emotion.
    2. A person who never sang classical song.
    3. His voice was coarse.

    And so on and on..

    Your comments sounded like the second point to me and that is why I told you to talk on “technical” front..

    And considering singing as a whole, I think there are many things which Rafi could do the best and Kishore could not as well( devotional is one example) and there are many things which Kishore also could do the best which Rafi could not as well( experimentaion is just one of them)..

    But let us keep that “bang bang” discussion of Kishore-Rafi apart.. Unnessesary waste of time for both the camps IMHO

  47. 47
    Srivas Says:

    Anil ji, lalith ji & others

    Kuch to log kahenge is a nice song by kishore. The link provided by Mr. Lalith in post 41, is completely not similar to kishore’s rendering by any means. Even in the limited alaap kehana there is a difference as compared to kishore’s rendition vs the other singers rendition, provided in the link. It can easily be observed that the sruti part is on the higher side in voice of kishore in the song right from the beginning and accordingly, the song from amar prem sounds quite attractive. See, as I mentioned, very few singers like kishore can render songs in such attractive way, without being vastly trained in classical singing.

    By all chances and means, both of you (Lalit and Anil) are south indian musicians (like me) and we should always note the basics of hindusthani music and specialisations while discussing about hindi singers, rafi, kishore, manna dey, saigal or others. Mr. Surajit Bose, Mr. Khan etc. might be the right persons to throw more light in this regard. We cannot simply push the pros and cons of the depth factor of carnatic music into hindusthani compositions when discussing about hindi singers (as we are forced by habit by virtue of our background) as the two are two different corners. The depth of carnatic music is more than hindusthani ones, and I feel proud to say that our southern film music has produced incomparable talents ranging from the great ghantasala, the father of southern film music, ( & who incidentally had knowledge in hindushtani music as well ) & other greats like t m sounderarajan, k j yesudas, jayachandran, p b srinivas, p suseela, vani jairam and others & in classical arena ranging from Mangalampalli Balamuralikrishna, M S Subbulakshmi, Semmangudi and numerous others. Incidentally, most of the south based film singers were able to comparatively sing hindusthani renditions quite well in hindusthani style mixing carnatic style, with ghantasala sounding more attractive. Accordingly, in my view, we, while discussing about hindi singers and their songs tend to compare on similar lines (by virtue of our background in carnatic) i.e. to mix carnatic and hindusthani forces and in such cases there is scope to put a wrong foot in fully and correctly analysing the hindusthani force of music. The songs having composed in hindusthani effects have to be looked only from the view of hindusthani style renditions, so that better analysis can be made for the songs composed in that style. Purely carnatic experts (more so like us) may falter in analysing hindusthani compositions, if an effort is made to compare based on mixture of both carnatic and hindusthani styles.

    SO WHILE DISCUSSING AND ANALYSING ABOUT RAFI OR KISHORE OR OTHER HINDI SINGERS THIS HINDUSTHANI MUSIC FACTOR HAS TO BE KEPT IN MIND.

    Kishore despite being associated with music directors and singers of hindusthani arena, does not sound like pure hindusthani vocalist but has a different special attraction ( you cannot find any flaw) , whereas mohd. rafi clearly sounds hindusthani in his renditions, man mora bawra, madhuban me radhika etc. Manna dey sounds hindusthani, lata & saigal sound hindusthani. But kishore songs has some attraction, I do not know, people simply listen to him and are fascinated, there is an attraction in his voice – one of the great god’s creation.

    post 37, Adarniya Paramjeet ji – Namaskar,

    kishore ji sachmuch acche singer hai, adarniya aap ne mere posts me mere views ko pada hoga, hum carnatic music aadmi hai, magar kishore or rafi ji ko like karte hai.

    Regarding observation on low notes, with my background, I say that it depends on the composition. For instance, to generalise, if the composition does not extend beyond 2nd octave tara ‘sa’ note, then, for persons having good range of voice can even touch the lowest ‘sa’ note in the last octave in the mandhara sthyai (last octave). But if the composition extends to tara sthayi ‘pa’ – final octave, even for a person having a good range of voice, it will be difficult to go below ‘pa’ note in the last octave.
    Among southern singers, Ghantasala and yesudas were comfortable in all the octaves SIMULTANEOULSY & in my personal view ghantasala maintained the same attraction in any octave (with different sruti levels also) with amazing voice control. Barring these two, other southern playback singers, in my view did not have great SIMULTANEOUS CONTROL on all the octaves at a time.

    In hindi music, in my knowledge, Mohd. rafi has good control in medium and high octaves, Kishore kumar was fine in low and medium octaves, lata mangeshkar was fine in low and medium octaves. In high pitch, lata gets diluted and is not that comfortable as in medium octaves

    IN MY KNOWLEDGE ONLY padmavibhushan BALAMURALIKRISHNA, THE GREAT SOUTHERN CLASSICAL MUSICIAN HAD SUNG 4 MORE NOTES BEYOND THE TARA STHAYI NOTE “SA” IN THE FINAL OCTAVE . THE 4 NOTES ARE NOT PRESENT ON MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS. MR. LALITH AND ANIL AND OTHER MUSICIANS TO COMMENT ON THIS.

  48. 48
    Lalit Ganapathy Says:

    Haldarji,

    I notice you spend considerable effort filling up web pages copying and pasting song titles from CD’s in a bid to demonstrate you competence in classical and devotional idioms. As a conscientious Tamil Iyer with rather limited abilities in those two idioms, I must ask you is that the extent of you abilities?

  49. 49
    Lalit Ganapathy Says:

    Anilji,

    The link contained a great deal more than “tomfoolery” that apparently competent critics (presumably such as yourself who are “around me”) rush to pigeonhole Kishore with , and goes some way towards demonstrating exactly what I had in mind when I claimed you suffered from “paucity of discrimination” – it was not intended by any stretch to be a “lyrical statement” unlike a Schubert Lied, rather a mildly sarcastic one.

  50. 50
    Lalit Ganapathy Says:

    Friends,

    Let us examine how this “debate” has played out so far.

    First we have a rather informative and well presented article by Arghyaji in homage to Kishore’s abilities as a devotional singer. In jumps someone saying Kishore lacks Hindustani classical technique, specifically alaps and taans, to which Arghyaji offers a spirited response premised on musical facts.

    Fast forward to several others jumping into the fray, myself among them, taking exception to the claim that Kishore lacks technical abilities, and buttressing our argument with examples. The response to that is, well, a song’s classical merit is determined not by its manodharma and its subtle pakads, but by the sheer number of notes in it!

    Now into this admixture, jump in a few (whose proper domain ought to be the Rafi forums) whose sole intent appears to be do run down Kishore’s technical competence and range – one claims to be a student in western classical music, with some knowledge of carnatic (to both of which I offer rebuttal), and supplies youtube links (each surpassing the previous in incompetence) in an apparent bid to demonstrate how easily replicable Kishore’s “classical” melodies are – another unveils a litany of songs in the classical and devotional traditions released by a recording label (red herrings both), advancing the clinching proof that Kishore, by his absence in either MUST by extrapolation, be an inferior classical singer.

    What is the tenor of their arguments?

    Well, Rafi was trained by Bade Ghulam Ali, and so had greater range and voice culture.
    Well, Rafi could pronounce breakneck taans, and unctuous alaaps.
    Well, Rafi was called in to playback sing for 6 Kishore songs, and as late as in 1972.
    Well, Rafi didn’t engage in “tomfoolery” or “harkats”.

    Nowhere (with the partial exception of Anilji) is there any reference to Kishore’s VOICE, his nada quality, his control over prana, his tone, and his timber.

    Rather than argue on musicality and on what constitutes the essence of shastriya sangeet (as Srivasji and Arghyaji did), Haldarji merely supplies a facile list of “classical” and “devotional” songs premised on hand-me-down tradition that exclude Kishore, and appears to imply that my surname and caste would act as an impediment to musical judgement – never mind that his own musical provenance remains unknown.

    How is one to satisfactorily argue in favor of Kishore’s unimpeachable technical musical sensibilty, and purity of tone and strength of nada, when his detractors refuse to meet us on that platform?

    If the argument against Kishore (and in favor of Rafi and Manna Dey) is that the latter two had more bandishes and thumris in their discography, rather than on voice quality, tone, purity of nada, timber, suppleness, projection, and breath control, all of which are true classical sine qua nons, and all of which Kishore possessed in ample measure, then I fear no constructive dialog is possible on the subject.

  51. 51
    paramjeet Says:

    respected srivasji..

    Jo aap ne range ki baat ki wohi main bolna chahta tha ki low and medium octave mein kishore ka hold highest octave mein rafi ke barabar hi tha..

    Jitna ooncha rafi ja sakte the utna neecha kishore..

    Range is a combination of all the octaves and not only high notes.. To anilji jaise mahagyani logo ka yeh bolna ke kishore ka range khaas nahi tha aur rafisahab ka range sabse great tha , unki khudki aadhi adhuri knowledge ko hi reflect karta hai..

    Arghya babu..

    Aap ka bataya hua rabindrasangeet maine suna.. Before the word ‘joriche sharvan dhara'(mujhe achhi bangali nahi aati) , dhara se pehle kishoreda ek breathing space lete hai.. Aap sahi hai ismein guruji ‘ma’ touch karte hai udara mein.. Kishoreji ka adbhut kshamata low octave mein darshit hota hai is gaane mein..

    Krupaya yadi aur kuchh rabindrasangeet ho aap ke paas to mujhe bheje.

  52. 52
    Lalit Ganapathy Says:

    Srivasji,

    Thank you for your comment, and my response to it hereunder.

    Balamuralikrishna is the only one I know in Carnatic music who has a clean 3 octave range in normal voice, ie mandara shadjam to tara shadjam (on occasion even 3 1/2, all the way above tara sthayi). Murali, despite being a Sangeeta Kalanidhi, is not regarded in conventional Carnatic circles to be “pure” (whatever that means) unlike say, Nedunuri, KV Narayanaswami, Neyveli Santhanagopalan, or Semmangudi – another instance of parochial prejudice, the way Sawai Gandharwa is not held to be “pure” unlike Ustad Karim Khan in some classical circles, despite being the paragon of Kirana Gharana.

    They say Balamurali’s emphasis on his own compositions (he has over 400 ‘Muraliganams’) is an indecent attempt to place himself on par with the trinity of Tyagaraja, Dikshitar, and Syama Sastri – even though TV Gopalakrishnan for example also composes, though no one has anything to say against him. Balamurali is of course a genius and his 72 melakarta exposition, along with Balachander’s veena exposition, is a tour de force. In terms of nada purity and attraction, my vote will have to go to Madurai Mani though, whose sheer vocal timber, kalpanaswarams, and manodharma were outstanding, and unlike the great GNB and MLV there was no sruti-bhedam.

    As far as I know Bade Ghulam Ali Khan also had a clear 3 octaves, and my guru in Hindustani music in Delhi mentioned Pandit Jasraj had it on a good day, as do Rajan and Sajan Mishra, and the great Rashid Khan. Incidentally, my guru, who is a senior performing artist of the Indore gharana, and who was a student of Amir Khan says the same thing about Kishore – that there is an unmentionable, subtle quality in Kishore’s nada that attracts. It is a rare quality. Saigal had it for example.

    Coming to western classical, Carreras had a superior range of over 3 octaves, though Placido Domingo had a slightly better voice, but when it came to sheer timber, and attractiveness of tone, it was hard to beat a Pavarotti who learnt to read music only towards the very end of his career. Though the last word in bel canto tenor range should probably go to Corelli and more recently Winbergh and Kraus with their brilliant Don Ottavio in Don Giovanni (eg. ‘dalla sua pace’).

  53. 53
    Rafifan Says:

    Lalith ji,

    Mohd. Rafi saab stands as the only singer whose voice was more melodious than all other hindi singers (kishore and lata to be specifically included). Whatever extra comedy talents one may possess (like kishore), the same cannot be of any significance before the so called ” MELODY FACTOR” possessed by the unique rafi. Kishore is certainly good in some songs, but no where near rafi in terms of the melody factor, which comes only as a gift for the vocal chords. And rafi was gifted with this unique voice and which is sure enough to captivate anyone. Agreed, kishore could copy and paste some songs which require technical ability (thanks to the support of the music directors and his staff who were musically specialised) but the same falls short before rafi’s or manna’s technical ability factor , which was developed by them due to their background in classical music. There will always be a difference between a person trained in classical music and the one who is not. The one who is not trained can only copy and paste (due to lack of training) and in this copy and paste activity, he may sound attractive (like kishore) and basing this one cannot conclude, he is a technical expert as the originality factor of technical ability lacks. At the end majority of the people are attracted to a voice which is more melodious and rafi certainly has a distinct edge in melody factor.

    Sri Vas Ji,

    Fascinating write ups Sri Vas Ji. I have heard Shri Ghantasala and in my view, he is the only other playback singer who can be placed on par with the great rafi in playback singing. Both of them were equally accomplished (than others due to their versatile talents and unique voices which were divine and melodious) in their respective fields. True, in classical film compositions, Shri ghantasala has a clear edge over rafi, I agree with that, as it should be, by virtue of the higher training and specialisation in classical music which Shri ghantasala had, but what makes him unique was, he too had a great melodious and unique gifted voice. Had it not been that, rafi ji would have been on top in terms of melody factor. Shri Ghantasala’s unique voice combined with his specialised musical talent (I am aware of his being a very great music director for more than 100 films in the south) makes him incomparable vis-a-vis other playback singers. I do not think there is any playback singer in India, who was simultaneously an accomplished playback singer as well as equally accomplished music director of high calibres. Truly great.

    A new fascinating news for me through you : siva sankari song by Shri Ghantasala was recorded in one take – astonishingly astonishing. Such a super difficult rendering, recorded only in one take, if true, confirms his talent which is beyond the reach of any other singer.

    As a rafi fan, I would think that I would really love to hear siva sankari in the great voice of rafi ji, not as rafi ji in the form he was, but as rafi ji singing the song as carnatic trained specialist. How that would have been is a fascinating imagination.

  54. 54
    arghya Says:

    Respected Lalit Sir,

    Yes, even in my post 46, I especially urged people to be on the technical note rather than being dismissive by saying “Kishore does not even come closer to xxxxx singer” or ” In this discography no song of Kishore is there”.. This is utter childishness IMHO…

    As you would also accept Lalitji, the same HMV(when they were not SAREGAMA), had released a romantic songs collection called “Love Songs from Films” which had 10 tracks, viz, ” Rajnigandha phool tumhare”, “Is mod se jaate hai”, ” Do deewane shahar mein”, ” Bol re papihara”, “Beeti na beetayi raina”, ” Naam ghum jaayega”, “Tera mera pyar amar”, “Kuchh to log kahenge”, ” Jab deep jale aana” and ” Jaaneman jaaneman tere do nain”.. What does it prove? That Rafi, Mukesh and Manna could not sing romantic songs??

    I never ever proclaimed anything like Kishore was the best in devotional songs or he was the ultimate, but my point is “he was underrated so the new generation should know what classical songs he had rendered and then accordingly decide whether he was good or not” – where the response has been very positive and ” to keep things under normal perspective”- and not overhype… But still, the response of certain people makes it clear that they want to defend this “devotional” singing from saying that “universal truth is Kishore is not a devotional singer”.. How can we be so dismissive? A certain group of people’s thought is “universal truth”??

    Haldarji( as his surname suggests) is known for his nasty comments like ” a word against our farishta and you are dead” kind of a stuff, so nothing to expect too much..

    As for Anilji, yes, as Paramjeetji and Srivasji have rightly put out, the “lowest octave” which his guruji always used to avoid ( even a “dha” on the lowest octave during his later years), should understand the meaning of “range as a whole” before claiming things like ” there is hardly to talk anything on Kishore’s range”..This is a point respected Mr. Surajit Bose has many times talked and discussed and nothing new to explore there also as Srivasji has echoed the same thing…

    Thank you

  55. 55
    P. Haldar Says:

    post 48

    Dear Lalit ji,

    It takes a couple of minutes to copy and paste such things. I don’t mind doing that when I realise that I am interacting with such a learned person as you. I actually happen to have several LP records of “semi-classical” songs and bhajans from films. In fact, the classical CD that I had mentioned before is an extension of an LP record that came out much earlier (probably in the early 70s). This LP was recommended to me by a sarodiya friend of mine, who just loved Rafi’s rendition of “Radhike tu ne bansuri chuarayi”. If you haven’t heard it, here it is for you. It may not meet your exacting standards, but for lesser mortals like us, it is sweet as honey.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbpVwopnohE

    I rarely visit this site but someone alerted me to your posts. I have heard Kishore fans say a lot of things about Rafi, and we Rafians are guilty of doing the same. But I have never heard a Kishore fan trash “Man tarpat hari darshan” the way you did. I was totally stunned by what you wrote. I don’t know which age group you belong to but this bhajan occupies a special place in the hearts of millions of Indians for various reasons. It maintains an iconic status among lovers of music in general. Since you and your guru ji think that there is nothing great about this song, I made a simple request to you: make a video of your rendition of “man tarpat” and post it for us to watch. I even told some of my friends, “You’ve heard Mohd. Rafi’s Man tarpat hari darshan, wait till you hear Lalit Ganapathy ji’s.

    You said a lot of things in your earlier posts that are totally untrue. I’ll talk about them when I get more time. But for now, let me just inform you that Rafi was not trained in the Patiala gharana, though he interacted with both Bade Ghaulam Ali Khan saab and Barkat Ali Khan saab. His primary training was in the Kirana Gharana under Ustad Abdul Waheed Khan and Pandit Jeewanlal Mattoo.

    In the meantime, I’d like you to mull over the following question:

    Wasim Akram could not bowl off spin. Does that necessarily make Harbhajan Singh the greatest bowler?

  56. 56
    kishorefan Says:

    Arghya ji, – 53

    You are too honest and dignified in your posts. The romantic songs release by HMV should be a clear reply to Mr. Haldar ji, who is famed for his special comments in mohdrafi.com – form a group called united against rafi and we will take care of you ; a word against our farishta and you are dead.

    Respected surajit bose ji had asked haldar ji, would you beat up people who are not rafi fans and there was no reply. In fact no rafi fan also said against such comments and were watching the fun.

    Paramjeet bhai,

    Thik kahi apne. Low or medium range mey kishore ka hold rafi ke barabar hi tha. Esme koyi samshay nahi hai. As Srivas ji, says, low and medium octave, kishore is fine i.e. 2 octaves, rafi is fine in medium and high octaves i.e 2 octaves. How is rafi superior to kishore then. In their ranges both have good strengths.

    I compliment on your efforts on writing this nice article on the songs of kishore, which certainly as you say, will be appreciated by younger generation.

  57. 57
    P. Haldar Says:

    post 52

    Dear Lalitji,

    You totally misunderstood what I said. You wrote:

    “Rather than argue on musicality and on what constitutes the essence of shastriya sangeet (as Srivasji and Arghyaji did), Haldarji merely supplies a facile list of “classical” and “devotional” songs premised on hand-me-down tradition that exclude Kishore, and appears to imply that my surname and caste would act as an impediment to musical judgement – never mind that his own musical provenance remains unknown.”

    In fact, I never brag about my ethnicity, caste or religion, though I come from the same background as Kishsore da’s. When discussing music, these things do not matter to me. I grew up in a middle-class Bengali household where Hindi films and Hindi film music were taboo. The only songs we were allowed to listen to were Rabindra sangeet, some modern Bengali songs (including Kishore da’s) and western music. It is you who have proclaimed your Tamil Brahmin Iyer lineage, and that’s why I thought you were suggesting that you have a better appreciation for bhajans than others.

    Now let me tell you why I gave you the list of songs from the 2 albums. Please do not assume that the marketing folks are fools. They are out to make money and if they think that naming a devotional album “Joi Baba Felunath” (a Satyajit Ray film) would sell, they would do so without batting an eyelid. In Marketing, there’s a term called “product bundling” and HMV has figured out that including Kishore’s songs in devotional albums might hurt their prospects. You will have to realise that this is a niche market where Rafi, Lata, Manna, Mahendra Kapoor and Mukesh rule. That is not to say that Kishore’s devotional songs would not sell. But you’ll have to create a separate package for that, catering solely to Kishore’s fans.

    Given that you are interested in making money, I honestly think that you can suggest a list of Kishore’s devotional songs (the list in this article may suffice) to HMV. But you need to have a good title for the album. I initially thought of “Jai Jai Shiv Shankar”, but that song has been reused too many times. How about “Bhole O Bhole”? Is that catchy enough?

  58. 58
    arghya Says:

    Lalitji//Srivasji..

    When the discussion on range and technicality is going on, I hereby feel it utmost interesting to give a Rabindrasangeet of Kishore Kumar which I had asked Paramjeetji to listen and which he also responded with amaze.. The song is “Shaghana gahana raatri”.. I know the language barrier would be there, but still, I want both of you to technically analyze this song with particular points like:

    1. Kishore’s control on lowest octave.
    2. His spontaneous switch of note in the later stage of second antara.
    3. Clarity of voice.

    Also, certain things to be referred just as side informations:
    1. The song was recorded in 1980 when Kishore was 51 year old.
    2. The record to which the songs belongs was sent to Vishwa Bharati record board with heads like Smt. Suchitra Mitra and Smt. Kanika Bandopadhyay( I hope Haldar sahab know these names and who they were)- who had taken lessons from Rabindranath Tagore himself in their youth from Shanitiniketan. And after listening the 12 Rabindrasangeets, Smt. Kanika Bandopadhyay was so moved that she posted a letter to Kishore Kumar at his Gauri Kunj address stating that : ” Only listening to rabindrasangeet in such a lovely voice of yours makes us all feel more motivated to live more”!! That was just the compliment part of it.
    3. The music arrabgements of the Rabindrasangeets were done by Hemant Kumar with some support from Salil Chowdhury also.

    Here is the song which I want trained people like you to comment:

    http://rapidshare.com/files/266801367/SAGHONO_GAHONO_RATRI.MP3.html
    Thank you so much sirs for enlightining us with pure thoughts and true analysis and awaiting your comments for this song.

  59. 59
    Srivas Says:

    Lalit ji,

    Let us purely discuss on some interesting musical technicalities (with the permission of the kind administrator)

    Thanks for your post. Indeed it confirms your knowledge on musical personalities and technical aspects. Nice to read & I concur with most of the points. To have a clear 3 octave range is a god gifted boon, rare cases only you can find. But it would be interesting to note that whether the clear range can be maintained if the sruti levels change. (it will be interesting to note some few examples from your experience) For instance range in octaves in sruti 1 will be comfortable as compared to range in sruti 3 where strain takes place, despite having a good range voice. Music is so vast and a gigantic ocean since it has such unimaginable technicalities. My view is that, very few singers with very good range are comfortable in all the octaves simultaneously in different sruti levels. Balamurali was comfortable as you said, even yesudas had a 3 octave range so was ghantasala who was even comfortable when the sruti levels change. For best instance of a filmy number we can take chal ud ja re panchi of rafi in hindi, which was sung by ghantasala in a higher sruti level and the notes roughly range from ‘pa’ note in the lower octave to as high as the ‘pa’ note in the tara octave, The telugu version sruti level is on higher side by ghantasala as compared to its hindi version, wherein he was fully comfortable & mesmerising even at the higher alaap in the end. What I mean is that even in change of sruti level, very few voices can maintain the clarity in rendering octaves. Of course, the vocal chords have to be built in that way by god himself, it does not come by practise. Thanks for your post on other information on hindusthani and western greats. Nice reading.

    Lalit ji and other respected friends and music lovers,

    I concur with you all that kishore had certainly an attraction in his voice – there was nada purity and none can dispute that. Without nada purity, the requisite attraction is not possible. I do not find any flaw in kishore’s renditions nor any musician. And as other music lovers such as paramjeet ji, Arghya ji say, yes, kishore was fully comfortable and attractive in his ranges as was mohd. rafi in his ranges. The range factor has to be certainly looked into when comparing singers as each singer vocal chords are built up on difference ranges. The female singers sruti levels are generally high as compared to their male counterparts. It is naturally built like that. Female singers voices do not have that depth which the male singers voices have. Kishore voice had a good depth and attraction and in his voice range, there is nothing to find any flaw in his renditions. This is quite clear, even I know of people having music knowledge appreciating kishore on par with mohd. rafi as a singer and about this there is no doubt. S Janaki, a leading female singer of the south respects kishore kumar equally along with ghantasala and mohd rafi. Even mohd rafi had said many times, kishore could have sung more beautifully, some of the songs. So was manna dey’s views on kishore. That is enough to say about kishore.

  60. 60
    Anil Says:

    Lalitji:
    Right you are; I ought not to be here. Mohd.rafi.com is the site for me and that’s where I will be.
    As for the technical factors you have mentioned, can’t there be a difference of opinion? Can’t it be possible that staying on hard and fast on a note (the purest one) with power and resonance for as long as possible before switching to the next is only one way of doing it? Can’t there be other ways also; like simply touching or caressing the note (without going off-key) and gliding over to the next? As far as my modest knowledge goes, there is no one perfect way to singing; if some one hits (and sits on) the purest (micro) ‘nada’ hard, it is just his/her style. It can’t be ‘the way to sing’, surely not for light singing. Personally speaking (not supported by the opinions of any ‘Gurujis’), it is a relatively inferior way to do a light song and several great classical-film combo singers (Lata and Yesu Das for instance) makes sure they make it wavy when rendering light songs. And I wouldn’t agree with you that Kishore alone could ‘seek out and latch on to the purest ‘nada”, contrary to what Rajan Parrikar thinks (See I’ve done you a favour by dropping in a name which you will use shortly, anyway). And I also don’t believe that Rafi, whenever he tried the stuff, sounded contrived. Rafi could do it if and when he wanted to do it, more of it later.
    What else where your canons? Tone, timbre, flexibility? I don’t really feel like debating these things vis-a-vis Rafi V Kishore. It doesn’t worth the time. Would only like to mention that Kishore’s tone, to me, is pretty much the tone of your posts- bold, aggressive and dissenting.
    Keeping aside the technicals, let me suggest you to listen to Rafi as a layman (like me) does; or else get deeper into the vast ocean of music and you might be able to appreciate him better in either case. People like Vinod Rathod did the latter and discovered the gem (I don’t suppose you’ll take offense at the mention of the name of a singer who could possibly be not as good as you are).
    Finally, please add ‘tere aankhon ke siwa..’ to my request list. I have recently seen/listened to a rather well-known (and well-trained) singer singing it on TV and found the soul of the song missing and no, his rendition was no joke. I am sure you can at least equal ‘the crooner without dimension’.

  61. 61
    Anil Says:

    Srivasji:
    I never said ‘kuch to log’ is not a good song nor did I compare the original with the clip per se, I had provided. If you notice, I had also mentioned that the young fellow in the clip sings at a lower ‘shruthy’. My only point was this particular song is not a ‘irreplicable by trained singers’ song. If you want my opinion on the song, I’d say it is a very good song equally well-sung.
    My views on Kishore is quite close to yours. He was one of a kind. However when think about him, his absence of formal training, naturally (and rightly) props up in our mind and that influences our view. We don’t give this leverage to Rafi. We tend to think of Rafi as a trained singer and therefore we take several things for granted from him. In my opinion this should not be the case. According to the best of my (modest) knowledge, Rafi’s training (from a ‘Gurumukham’) is rather limited. Manna Dey and Anoop Jalota stresses this point in one video that’s available in the youtube. One can say Kishore was quite equally trained himself (by singing Saigal and Manna Dey songs from an early age).

  62. 62
    Anil Says:

    To everyone who might be interested:
    It is not my intention to hail Rafi and trash Kishore; simply because Rafi doesn’t need one Anil’s hailing and Kishore will remain Kishore even if one Anil disses him (and I wouldn’t dare throw mud at a singer/artist as great as Kishore). However I want to point out a couple of things that have meen mentioned by Lalitji in his posts. I hope I can club them together and be brief with my opinion.
    Point #1- People who thinks they know music ‘thinks’ that Rafi is better while people who know music ‘know’ that Kishore is better.
    Point #2- Kishore is technically the better singer (mainly) because of the purity of ‘nada’ and his ability to hold on to it longer while Rafi was just ‘meends’ and other gimmicks.
    Now, the basic questions are who ‘knows’ music, who are the best judges of film singers and are these statements factually true?
    Who knows music? Only those who go to a teacher and learn to sing/ play musical instruments? It can’t be, else we can’t call S.Janaki or S.P.Balasubramaniyam or Kishore himself musically literate. Musical aptitude is God-given and training can only give it a proper shape and direction.
    Who are the best judges of film singers? It can’t be the modern classical musicians. Better judges would be the co-singers, music directors who have worked with them and ‘musically enlightened’ (not necessarily trained) listeners- especially those who have listened to them in live shows.
    Is it really true that ‘all’ classical musicians consider Kishore to be superior? No way. There are some of them, but then there are some who consider Mukesh superior to them all.
    Now what makes some of the classical exponents think that Kishore is superior? Is it technical reasons alone? I doubt it. There are several factors at play. One off course is the factor well-exponded by Lalitji- the hitting of right (micro) notes and sustaining it with uniform amplitude, strength and texture. This is what every classical guru teaches his ward to follow. Then there is the voice- Many classical vocalists can find Rafi’s voice not to their liking with its ultra-velvetty texture (almost an anti-thesis of the classical singing voice). But the most glaring issue is what I call the specialist/class syndrome. This happens with artists who are good in several areas and who appeal to all classes of ‘rasiks’. To accept Rafi unconditionally would have to be a big risk for classical singers. Several questions would prop up- like for instance ‘do we really need the classical singers?’ Jagjit Singh’s (in) famous derogatory comments on Rafi has the same root cause. These questions wouldn’t arise with Kishore. Even with Kishore around, we still need the classical singers to render the heavy stuff and cater ‘to the ones who think they know music’. I am pretty sure Gantasala also faced the same issue; I see no other reasons why that saintly soul would challenge the classical singers to those contests. May be Srivasji would enlighten us on this. Thankfully, Gantasalaji was well-equipped to counter them at their own game. The same syndrome is at play vis-a-vis Yesu Das. In South India, this great singer hasn’t got many fans among the classical singers/ experts/ analysts. But S P Balasubramaniyam has their blessings.
    Hoped to pen something on the Rafian way of singing, but the post has already become too long. So may be, some other time.

  63. 63
    arghya Says:

    Lalitji/Srivasji..

    Pl keep in touch with my post 58, as I see so many posts from so many people..

    It is really important to understand certain “technicalities” before we comment on Kishore as a singer and “dismiss” which a group of people love to do..

    One query though: If we think a particular singer is the best, then we are “musically knowledgable” and when we think Kishore is the best, we are “biased”, “laymen”, “uncouth” and what not(regional, religious and many unconstitutioanl things also)… Can’t we come out of our “myopic” view and see music broadly?

  64. 64
    arghya Says:

    Anilji Post 61

    Kishore never sang Manna De songs from his childhood.. As per my research and analysis of my idol..

    If you have any back up, please substantiate..

    He sang Kundan Lal Saigal’s songs and some Sachin Dev Burman songs..

    The first time Manna became known to Hindi music was in 1950 in “Mashaal” singing “Upar gagan vishaal” under S D Burman.. Even if we consider, Kishore became highly impressed with Manna after that, was he a “child” anymore??

  65. 65
    arghya Says:

    Rafifan..

    Too subjective a post and your hatred for Kishore is just oozing out,,,

    Go get a life in the neighbourhood community..

  66. 66
    Srivas Says:

    Arghya ji – Post 58

    I have heard the song 3 times. Nice clarity in the voice of kishore and good control in the lower octave notes (ranging 4 notes in the lower octave) as well as the medium octave. No complaints. Though language is new, I could catch the bhava effect & the emotional effect, which were good to hear. Thanks for the song. The way I heard the song, my grasp is that kishore can even go high, due to the strength he has displayed in the medium octave with good command.

    When the question of range or technical issue comes up, it should be vividly noted that if any singer is faulty from technical issue point of view, either the music director would not accept him to sing the song or such singer cannot stay for long as a singer by virtue of his lacunae. But kishore was a well established singer and he virtually ruled hindi cinema along with the great mohd. rafi and one cannot say that kishore’s renditions are faulty or he was not ‘that better’ etc. In his range,he was fine. It is well known that kishore too was immensely popular like rafi and has great fan following, which would have been otherwise if kishore was treated as an ordinary singer.

    Specifically addressed to Anil Ji, – 62

    Thanks for pointing out the mis-presentation on my part as stated by you in your post 62 . I should have been more clear in my presentation.

    Your para in post 62.

    ” I am pretty sure Ghantasala also faced the same issue; I see no other reasons why that saintly soul would challenge the classical singers to those contests. May be Srivasji would enlighten us on this. Thankfully, Ghantasalaji was well-equipped to counter them at their own game”.

    Sure, you are absolutely right. Ghantasala never challenged any body, he was a saintly soul. What I meant was during the course of a discussion between ghantasala and semmangudi, this topic was discussed between both of them as “topic of musical interest” because those days the playback singing was in full form and it was like a ‘research item’ on making classical music more attractive mixing it with playback singing. As you said, the classical singers generally do not appreciate playback singing, and in this line ghantasala was surely there to convince that playback singing can be made attractive by mixing it with classical style without compromising the classical attributes. And this he did, as all are aware of his status as playback legend with unique voice. And again you are right, since ghantasala was well equipped both ways, he was able to equip himself well before the great padmavibhushan semmangudi srinivasa iyer. It was purely not a challenge and ghantasala, himself being a well trained classical musician, had immense respect towards semmangudi and other classical greats. I should have presented this fact correctly. Hope the error stands corrected. Thanks for the correction Anil ji.

    To all, (again anil ji specifically)

    Further, as I am a classical musician, I have to state that the above argument is not applicable for all the singers (mostly present generation singers). I admit that classical singing is the mother of all types of singing. Singers like ghantasala, mohd rafi etc. have made playback singing more attractive without compromising the classical attributes, but that does not mean all the playback singers can or will become ghantasala or mohd rafi.

    Anil ji, – True, in general playback singing is not appreciated by classical singers (with ghantasala, rafi etc. as exception as they had made playback singing more attractive combining it with classical attributes, with the former one being more accomplished in this regard & even classical singers appreciate them), but all the current generation singers (yesudas being an exception as I do not consider him a current generation singer) cannot copy that & cannot think to prove that playback singing is greater than classical singing. This kind of wrong importance / presentation given to playback singing in current scenario is underrrating the current playback singers & playback singing also which was truly appreciated in 50’s to 70’s by classical singers as well. What do you say ?

  67. 67
    Srivas Says:

    Anil ji,

    Small point I have missed – You say s p balasubramaniam has their blessings (classcial singers) – I do not think so. I do not think SPB was even technically well qualified or had a advanced training in music, because in my knowledge when occasionally even some semi classical ( not classical) range songs had to be rendered, SPB had to get himself trained with some established musician to render that semi classical rendition correctly (this I came to know through some people having music knowledge). Of course, number of semi classical film songs rendered by SPB can be counted on fingers and consequently many classical exponents know of his talent in such areas (i should not comment as a classical musician). Your apprehension can be put at rest by quoting facts that this singer is diplomatic and he equips himself well with the exponents of traditional singing according to the times and circumstances as compared to straight forward and fact based artists (yesudas). I hope this might be the reason for your statement.

  68. 68
    Anil Says:

    Arghyaji:
    As far as I know, Manna Dey was rather well-known in Bengal by the early ’40s. Please correct me if I’m wrong. So in ’45, Kishore was 16, right? and it is a ‘young age’ (this is how I penned it, not ‘childhood’). I’ve read somewhere (in the internet) that Kishore and a group of friends used to assemble frequently and Kishore sang for them. He didn’t sing free (his business acumen was pretty much intact even at that young age); he charged them something like 0.25 per song for SDB songs, 0.50 for Manna Dey songs and 1.00 per Saigal songs.
    Off topic, let me tell you that I’ve come to appreciate you a lot. Despite being a H.U.G.E Kishore fan (probably one of greatests fans of all time), you admire and appreciate Rafi. You could just easily have tagged Rafi as a mere crooner or just over ornateness (especially with the kind of support from the musicians/analysists here). Appreciating your ‘ear for music’ and objectivity.

  69. 69
    Anil Says:

    Srivasji:
    Would it be okay with you if we continue our debate in ‘mohdrafi.com’. I feel that would be the more ideal platform to discuss classical singing V playback singing since we would have to talk more about Rafi and Ganthasala than kishore. And certain posters here have already expressed their misgivings about my actual qualification to debate music and my right to be here in this site.

  70. 70
    paramjeet Says:

    kishorefan ji..

    Sirf haldar sahab hi kyun, wahan pe bahut saare diggaj aese hai jinhone anil biswas, rd burman, kishoreda, salil chowdhury aur aese kuchh aur guni kalakaron ko jo mooh mein aaye bole hai.. Aur fir reason yeh diye hai ke humein rafi sahab se prem hai is liye bola.. Aur yeh sunke baaki saare ayr diggaj awaz lagaye’waah..waah..kya bola bola hai’.. hansi aatu hai mujhe to kabhi kabhi.. Ek dafa to mera dimaag garam ho gaya tha inki baatein sunke..
    Rafi sahab ke saath thoda sangeet se bhi prem kar lete…

  71. 71
    sid sen Says:

    Dear Lalit,

    I’m sorry for bringing up an old area in this topic 🙂 .

    But let me quote what you said:

    “But my friend, there is an inside joke amongst us classical vocalists – and that joke is “Kishore Kumar”. We can sing Rafi songs, we can sing Hemant songs (any song from ‘Anarkali’ for example), we can sing Mukesh, BUT we have a horrible time singing Kishore songs, because they can never be satisfactorily replicated. Ask any competent and classically trained vocalist, and he will tell you the same thing. That is why classical vocalists LOVE and respect Kishore, because we see in him undeniable (and original) genius that defies and surpasses every vocal music rule we have ever learned. ”

    I have a few questions:
    1. Do the kishore kumar songs which you find relatively tougher than others include his semi classical/classical songs? ( I am sure of semi classical as my good friend Arghya gave me a video of kishoreda singing an sc. 🙂 )
    2.Do the songs of Mohammed Rafi comprise only of his semi classicals ? Or do they include his songs like: Deewana Hua Badal, Tumne mujhe dekha, Aa jaa re aa zara, nazar na lag jaaye, tere mere sapne, Likhe jo khat tujhe, Dil ka bhanwar (or was that song by kishore da? Dev anand seems to think so!), Khoya khoya chand, Aap ke haseen rukh pe, Pukarta Chala hoon main, etc?
    3.If no to the above 2 questions, then my question to you is WHY?Aren’t the difficulty compositions the main point of focus, rather than the singer of the composition (Yes I know about how identity of a singer plays a heavy role, but I am talking more on the lines of difficulty in singing the tune 🙂 )

    Thanks, and a belated happy birthday to Kishore Kumar ji, the only multifaced artiste of india! 🙂

  72. 72
    sid sen Says:

    Sorry for not including this earlier but,

    I quote again:

    “it may interest you to learn that my own Hindustani vocal guru used to call Rafi a ‘crooner’ – so much for his being “technically competent!””

    And did your guruji call rafi a crooner? Well, if it is a song like aa ja re aa zara or o zindagi tu jhoom le zara, it is quite a compliment to Mohd. Rafi ji that he didn’t sound like a “technician” !! And if it was in general, it is another way of complimenting Rafi Saaheb on his versatility, whether it was intentional or not from your guru’s side 🙂

    Oh, and parthiv goyel, altho sang the song in PERFECT Sur , sadly lacked the :
    1.emotions
    2.voice quality
    3.expressions
    4.Sophistication

    which were very much present in the original!

    *Sigh* if only those 4 qualities were mere skills, then perhaps even good ol’ Parthiv and the rest of the sur mechanics could be a rafi! *Sniff*

    I maintain the fact that Rafi Saaheb and Kishore Da were brilliant in their own way, be it being multifaceted or unimaginably versatile in all genres, So it is a humble request from my side, just as a person who loves music , that no harsh words must be spoken from the less privelidged 🙂

    Just wanted to express my views 🙂

  73. 73
    Kapil Says:

    Dear Lalit Sir,

    You not only possess great business acumen of Kishore Da, but also his hilarious comic talent, even Kishore da would have been proud of you, had he lived more to see all your posts. Friends,don’t raise your eyebrows if soon Shri Lalit Ji proclaims something that he can easily sing “Na Kisi ki aankh ka noor hoon” but can’t sing “Humein tumse pyar kitna”.

    Friends,Bade Gulam Ali Khan Sahab and Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh had rellay admired Rafi Sahab, in fact the latter one called Rafi the “exponent of Classical singing in HFM”, i am sure, Lalit Ji with all his great classical Taleem, would really have corrected these two legends, had he interacted with them.

    Kishore’s better control than others, over Naada,Pranna and all other basics of classical singing, was another joke by Shri Lalit Ji.

    Arghya,

    I am not at all dismissive to Kishore, By that “Universal Truth”, i meant people love Kishore Da as an artist *more*, like for his singing, acting, comedy and Direction with music direction (I know many who love Jhumroo, DGKCM, DKR). But i really doubt, other than Kishore Bhakts, who would *love* to listen him in classical and Bhajans.

    Thanks

  74. 74
    Kapil Says:

    Paramjeet Bhai,

    Aap sab Rafi Fans se nahi mile hain, IN MY OPINION– Sangeetkar ki mahanta ka singer se koi lena dena nahi hai, Anil Biswas aur Salil Chowdhary Behad “melodious” evam Mahan SangeetKaar the, HFM ke anmol ratan hain dono, sabko pata hai.

    RDB was also great, Halaki unka trash work bhi kafi bhari maatra mein mojood hai, jo head ache deta hai.

    Aur Kishore Da ke baare mein wahan tabhi bola jata hai jab koi ignorant person aake cheekhna shuru karde ki “Kishore was much better than Rafi”

  75. 75
    arghya Says:

    Anilji..Post 68

    I am really not sure of the Manna stuff. Manna De started his career at around 1943 in Bengali but I have my doubt on him being inspiring Kishore from an early age.. At least, I have never had any such strong proof.. Anyhow, this was just a query raised, that is all..

    Thanks for your off the topic compliments.. I have full faith on Kishoreda just because, SUBJECTIVELY, after extensively listening to all the legends of the past( I have been an ardent follower of old hindi music since 1988), he still touchesd my heart the most.. And I have full respect to all the singers of past..

    I was also a regular part of discussion in mohd.rafi. com, but really had to come back from there, not because anyone said anything bad to me, but because I saw a full display of insulting to past luminaries by certain people who hail a particular position in certain organization and out of ego start thinking themselves equal as the person on whose name the organization is made.. Otherwise before calling a luminary like Anil Biswas “moron” and “chameleon”, Salil Chowdhury “politically corrupt” and calling Kishore “besoora”, they should have remembered that they are using adjectives which even their demigod( and even our beloved and respected) never dared to use..

  76. 76
    Anil Says:

    Here’s some musically accomplished people discussing ‘madhuban mein…’. Please note the mention of the highly accomplished Sanjay Subramaniyam in the discussion. Not every moderm classical vocalists has ‘misgivings’ about ‘classical Rafi’
    http://rasikas.org/forum/topic3277-peerless-rafi.html

  77. 77
    paramjeet Says:

    kapilji..

    Chalo main maan leta hoon ke wahan pe kishoreda ko besoora tab bola jata hai jab wahan pe koi aake chillane lagta hai ke kishore was much better than rafi..

    To us hisaab se aap yahan kya bol rahe hai?

    Magar hum kabhi bhi humare sanmanta mein kami nahi karte aur fir se bol rahe hai ke rafi sahab ek mahan gayak the..

  78. 78
    Lalit Ganapathy Says:

    Dear Haldarji and others who commented on my posts:

    Firstly, I never “trashed” “Man Tadpat” at all. I merely said I could sing it rather well (better, and certainly more faithful to the original than I can certain Kishore songs), but the tone of my comments should make it clear I am more moved by Kishore, whose songs I consider more challenging these days after about 20 years of riyaz (for my own reasons).

    I have supplied several reasons why I think Kishore is superior, but it appears for each reason I supply there are Rafi fans who will advance reasons why their own Rafi is better.

    Haldarji, I read your article in response to Raju Bharatan by the way, and thought it rather well written, accurate, and clever. Naturally I was rather disappointed at my receiving only “cut and paste’ from you, hence my comment. But then how can a mere mortal like me compete against Raju Bharatan! LOL!

    I have not personally had any first hand experience of vitriolic comments from you (though it is true Kishore fans like Arghyaji, Paramjeetji, Srivasji, would probably disagree with that, and be better disposed towards my views), so I cannot complain of any particularly vicious attacks ad hominems, though from what others write it does appear your admirable love for Rafi on occasion crosses the bounds of civil conduct.

    As I mentioned (only in half-jest) to Kapilji regarding musical notations, I am perfectly prepared to sing and upload versions of the songs you mentioned for monetary compensation. In fact I feel I should charge people even for posting on this board. LOL! Hopefully Kishore lovers will get the humor behind that one.

    Also a counter statement to you Haldarji: Javed Miandad once complained to Sunil Gavaskar in Australia about Kiran More’s antics behind the wicket. He shouted “Yahan insaan khel rahe hain, jaanwar nahin!!” To which Sunny just said, “Come again?”
    ____________________________

    Sidji: post 71

    Qu 1. Yes
    Qu. 2 Yes again
    Qu 3. Moot, since “yes” to both above, but I still maintain despite brilliant Rafi songs like “Khoya Khoya Chand”, “Chaudhvi ka Chand”, “Yeh mera Prempatr padhkar” and “Deewana hua Badal”, Kishore is the better singer on account of tone and nada quality.

    Sidji again post 72

    My guruji, and HIS guruji before him (I mentioned his name earlier), and quite possibly all his students universally regard Rafi as a “crooner” who fakes his voice on the lower register, ie manipulates the larynx preventing the sur from escaping naturally – and NO, it is not intended as a compliment at all.

    You are free to have your opinions on Parthiv Gohil’s version of “Aaj gawat man mero”, though my limited point was not about his version or the lack of the qualities you pointed out, but that Rafi (and for that matter Kishore) could not sing that song if their lives depended on it.

    By the way, I think Manna Dey could probably sing it better than either Amir Khan or Paluskar, but don’t tell my guruji that!

    Thanks Arghyaji, Srivasji, and Paramjeetji for all your kind words and informed scholarship!

    Inshallah we will continue to keep in touch on this board.

  79. 79
    surjit singh Says:

    Lalitji:

    If you are seriously telling me that you as a classically trained singer cannot sing the Kishor songs from Ziddi, I seriously doubt your training and expertise.

  80. 80
    Prabhanjan Says:

    I read completely the article and each of the comment below it. The author has rightly concluded with the last paragraph “Although, his devotional songs cannot fall in the same category of “Man tarapat hari darshan” or “Sukh ke sab saathi”, but the glimpse of his great talent cannot be overlooked in all the devotional songs he had sung!! A truly “divine” voice!”
    Yes, he does not mention Rafi. But then why did he choose two Rafi songs to conclude. There is no hidden agenda here. Arghya clearly knows the strengths and weakness of KK devotional songs. Still many fans found a way to prolong the debate as long as this. Its simple. If the author had other ideas, there would not be the last para. Yet it is there. Its a honest attempt to bring into light for those who love KK and those who don’t that KK had a decent number of devotional songs.
    Also listen to KK’s bengali devotional songs, especially Rabindranath geet, and then decide if he did justice or not.
    For those who are ridiculing his devotional number or the talent to sing them I have one question. Do you think Mukesh could sing COMEDY songs? Think. Yes, he has one song in the Junglee film. Yes, that very same Junglee film in which Rafi screamed “Yahoo!” and “Sukoo Sukoo”, etc. There is a nice Mukesh duet “Nain Tumhare Matwale Janabeali”. Its a comedy song. Whoever listened to this song never missed KK or Rafi in this comedy song. This is the CRUX of this article. Listen to KK devotional song and enjoy if you can.
    P.S: This is the only Mukesh comedy song that I know to the best of my knowledge. There may be more though.

    Finally, Arghya! I want to know KK’s Sanskrit renditions. They may be shlokas or complete song too. BTW, taking of variety, SPB has probably sung the only Sanskrit POP song ever composed 😛

  81. 81
    Shukla de Says:

    Hello rafians,

    I had raised a query in rafi forum – can anybody show sophisticated yodelling rendition like zindagi ek safar hai suhana by rafi – no answer by rafians. Some one or two note yodelling by rafi were presented by rafians and when this was brought to their notice, kishore lovers were harshly asked to exit from the site. Very great response from rafi fans. Now here, when discussions are taking place nicely, rafi fans started interfering again, unable to see the interesting discussions here and calling them as nonsense discussion etc. (true voice col. in other rafi forum) What rafi fans think, do you want that only you should continue the discussion and not others. You call kishore lovers jealous, then what is this.

  82. 82
    Siddhartha Das Says:

    Dear Arghya
    You have so much information about Kishoreda & Salilda that it has really made the reading so much more interesting. Kudos to your knowledge & writing style.

  83. 83
    arghya Says:

    My response to the last post of respected P Haldar sahab on the other topic “endless feuth”..

    1. Haldarji, I used the word “hate”, because i know there is hatred.. Would you like to be reminded of the comments passed on to Kishore by your other colleagues? ” compact disk”, “commercial puppet”, “rickshawpuller voice”, “a candle in front of the sun”(the funniest of them all), “besoora”.. Do you think these “compliments” come out of “love”?? Do you want the links also?? Tell me yes, and I would provide them and remind you..

    2. Regarding bengali jouranlists,, I dont know about Kerala, I have lived in Maharashtra for four years(Pune and Nanded), two years in Rajasthan( Jaipur), two years in Hyderabad and travelled out of profession and living in and around,length and breadth of India.. And the person, whom I have met and consider a true scholar on Hindi music is Mr. Vishwas Nerurkarji, who is not a Bengali..

    And don’t worry about your concern of me getting carried away by other people’s musical discussion.. To say the least, I do have a diploma from Bangiya Sangeet Parishad,, please don’t worry…

    I raised some points on Kishore’s vocals in terms of range and knowledgable people have responded just the way I felt about it.. If “Saghana gahana raatri” is not sufficient for you, (the download link is still available), please listen “Tere liye maine sabko chhoda” from Anand Ashram and see how many notes in the lowest octave is covered..

    You said, you can publish praises on Rafi sahab taking two three days,,, What is the problem? If you think, I do not know how many people have praised rafi sahab and “for what skills also”, you are in wrong perception.. But, you go ahead, as that will help your other colleagues to know this great singer better.. For the skills of Kishore, I have sufficient knowledge and information.Thanks and I am putting a full stop to our mutual conversation.

    Prabhanjan..

    Sanskrit shloka..hm.. There is a song from “Muqaddar ka faisla”(1987) where Kishore sings a devotional song “Teeno lok ke nath kanhaiyyaji ne janam liyo re” and starts the song with the shloka” he krishna karunasindhu, dinabandhu jagatpate, gopesh, gopikakanta, radhakanta namastute”.. Definitely, wont be as good as SPB, perhaps( I take your words, I know you are too good in your analysis)..
    And yes, you are right in your observations.. I really do mean that “Rafi sahab’s devotional songs were better than Kishore da’s”- no controversy in that:).. You are also right in saying, people should decide themselves how good Kishore’s renditions were regarding devotional songs.. I had once forwarded you two rabindrasangeets of Kishoreda, which you admired.. That was encouraging for me also as my non-bengali friends do keep on asking for Rabindrasangeets of Kishoreda..

    Sidhdhartha ji..

    Thanks a lot for your compliments.. Your encouragements are like fuels to me to keep going..

    Shukla De ji..
    I wont go into that heated arguement part of it.. Technically, yes, I have heard “Unse rippi tippi ho gayi”, at least three or four times – the song which Rafi fans put as the best “yoodelling” not only by Rafi sahab but also by any singer whatsoever..:) And I found those comments so funny, a yodelling of hardly two notes,, and pitted against complex and high pitch yodellings of many.. And overall, I dont bother too much about “yoodelling”, Rafi could do it just as good as Kishore could do an “alaap” in raga based songs..

  84. 84
    Anil Says:

    Excuse me, Lalithji. I know I am not entirely welcome here but can’t help pointing out yet another historically incorrect statement (or story?) from you. Miandad, Sunny and More never went into an international match together ‘Down under’. The last time India played Pakistan during “sunny days” was in ’85 (the B&H World series cup). The two teams played twice in the tourney and it was Sadanand Viswanath who kept wickets for India in both the matches. Then there was the (in) famous ’92 world cup match, but Sunny was long gone by ’92.

  85. 85
    Lalit Ganapathy Says:

    Anilji (post 84),

    Since when does retirement from international cricket preclude presence in a foreign continent in another capacity, as a commentator for Channel 9 perhaps? I never mentioned it was during a match. In point of fact, I think the incident was recounted in a newspaper by the venerable Raju Bharatan, but I am open to correction.

    But lest we forget, this a Kishore forum, any your comments (like Gavakar’s) are most welcome.

    Speaking of stories and inaccurate statements Anilji, do you know any good ones about Kishore Kumar growing up singing Manna Dey songs?

  86. 86
    arghya Says:

    Shukla De ji..

    Just a couple of more things on yoodelling as you mentioned so just thought to add my two cents into it:

    Yoodelling is traditionally seen as a mode of singing used to emote light hearted and happy songs.. Even in western music, yoodelling is mainly a happy expression or rather an expression or outburst of joy..

    Leaving apart the range of yoodelling, which you had mentioned, Kishore was unparallelled in the “forms of yoodelling” also.. Continuing from my last para, the yoodellings which were done by other singers again are basically “happy” forms of yoodelling or rather “traditional” yoodelling.. Kishore was unique in this “form of yoodelling” as:

    1. he used yoodelling in romantic songs( “El poloker ektu dekha”) without losing a single shade of romance out of it..
    2. he used yoodelling in sad, griefstruck songs( “She dino aakashe chhilo koto tara”, ” shei raate raat chhilo purnima”) without letting loose the grief and sadness which people can feel after listening the songs.. the first one seems like a lonely person, looking at the sky above, isolated and emotional and “yoodelling” out of despair.. An “experimentation” with this breaking of voice which no other singers tried
    3. and of course, he used yoodelling is classy masti songs which are just so memorable..

    The reason I spoke so much of yoodelling- even though considering this form of singing nothing special if to prove Kishore’s greatness- I saw a topic recently in one of the comunitites in a social networking site saying “where kishoreda was better- funny yoodelling or emotional deep songs”?

    so, I thought I would add here that extraordinary talent of Kishore, where simultenously he could express deep emotions with yoodelling coupled also.. Yoodellling is not only “fun”, perhaps Kishore taught this to us..

  87. 87
    Anil Says:

    To Lalitji:
    Can you please narrate the exact incident involving the 3 players in question. Is it that 2 were on the ground and the other in the commentator’s box? Or can it be that the ‘complaint’ happened post match when Miandad met Sunny; but in that case how can it be ‘yehan insaan khel rahe hain’?
    Yeah; there are more such stories about Kishore singing Manna Dey songs in his youth. You only have to visit the site of the one ‘whose catholicity of musical spirit’ cannot be suspected.

  88. 88
    Shukla de Says:

    Arghya ji – 86

    I agree with your points. Kishore was special in yodelling.

  89. 89
    sid Says:

    lalit,

    thanks for your reply! Good things certainly do come to those who wait!
    well my points were more on the lines of logic and reasoning. So you find a kishore kumar semi classical number harder than a rafi semi classical number? quite odd, as the kk one that arghya gave me seemed quite labored and forced. It wasn’t free flowing like a number by manna,rafi,etc Not to say k da wasn’t a brilliant singer, but to say his semi classical ones were tougher is quite odd, as many ppl twice as profficient as u, ur guruji or ur guruji’s wife have never told me such a thing! some were quite rude imo, but oh well, fanboys will be fanboys 😉 you should know 😛
    so u can sing deewana hua badal with more ease than chala jaata hoon eh? well to each their own i guess… . i think you need to be less obsessed with naturally talented singers or totally classical obsessed singers..learn to appreciate the more “balanced ones”… it’s odd how u and ur guruji have totally disagreed with manna dey(and kishore kumar ,lata ji and mukesh!)

  90. 90
    sid Says:

    furthermore,

    since we like to talk abt “faking” voice… whats ur take on “humko tumse ho gaya hai pyar”.. it is as if kishore and mukesh’s throats are coming out of their mouths as they go on to high pitch 🙂

  91. 91
    Surajit Bose Says:

    Hi Arghya, Lalit Ji,

    Some very nice points have been discussed here.

    Hearty thanks to Lalit Ji for putting forth his points so well, and with such good depth behind them.

    I have always insisted, here and elsewhere, that classical music (vocal) is first and foremost about developing a voice culture, about developing control over your voice (by learning to control your breath, and bringing your body in rhythm with the source of your voice), staying true to the Sur and Laya/Taal at every phase of the rendition. It is not about bringing about variations when there is need for none.

    I have already expounded my theories long time before, on this forum and elsewhere, about the comparision between Kishore and Rafi. I re-iterate that Rafi was not adept at classical songs. He was astute enough to know how to carry a song well enough, so that he didn’t sound out of place. But it was apparent that he was not the equal of Manna Dey. In my opinion, nobody, not even Manna Dey, comes close to Lata and Asha when it comes to classical renditions. Their control over their sur and their mastery of laya is breathtaking.

    Rafi was great in all other genres – ghazals, romantic songs, fun songs etc. But Rafi was relatively weak in the lower octaves. His voice didn’t project as well (and he frequently appeared to lose his breath) as it did in the middle and upper octaves. Kishore, OTOH, was equally good in the lower, middle, and upper octaves. However, nobody could go as high as Rafi.

    It is unfortunate that most of Kishore’s skills and technical mastery is overlooked due to his image as a comedy singer.

    Lalit ji, it would be a pleasure to interact with you here and outside this forum.

  92. 92
    arghya Says:

    Surajitda..

    Welcome back! Missed you so much here of late!

    Sid..

    Listen to the song carefully.. the high note of what you call, ie, “ab tak chhupaye rakha shola dabaye rakha”, although i a not on keyboard, i can make out is not at all something “challenging” to the calibre of Kishore and he was just as he was in that song!! There was no “falsetto” voice coming in that song on that note.. And out of the three stanzas, Mukesh’s one(the second one “tere sang jeevan ki dor bandhi hai”) is the most lovely one.. hats off to him for carrying that so well..

    Talking of “false voice”, 1. kishore never ever tried something as high as Rafi just like Rafi also did not try anything as low as Kishore. 2. On their own comfortable gambit also, kishore had difficulty in pulling some high notes towards the later half of his career especially after his heart attack. But when he was young, he could beautifully hit “re” on the highest octave in “Bin paisa har khel hai jhutha” where all the fab four “L-A-K-R” sang the only time togetehr! And Kishore had the highest note part “bin paisa har khel hai jhutha/ pyar kala sab dhokha” with stunning clarity definitely owing to the fact he was young those days..

    How old was Rafi sahab while singing “toote hue khwabon ne” where his voice entirely changed in the line “hum ko yeh sikhaya hai”, the last line hitting “dha” on the lowest octave?? It would also be beneficial for us also to know, whether Rafi sahab could hit a “Dha” on the lowest octave once he was past-50?( post-1975)? In “saghana gahana raatri”, the link I had given, on keyboard also you can test, Kishore hits “ma” on the lowest octave at the age of 52…

    Apart from that point, I entirely respect all your views on these two legendary singers.

    Thanks.

  93. 93
    arghya Says:

    Shukla De ji..

    Just saw your post in that other community.. Thanks a lot for your appreciation. Strange is this world, Shukla ji.. For two minutes fame, what not people do! No one knows a person, no one remembers a person, no one recognizes a person, and he starts abusing legends just like that!!

    Funny thing is Shukla ji, questions were asked like “don’t gag our mouths and let us speak”.. very funny, who has asked then to stop?? They have been going on just like this forever.. my response is LOLz..

    All are entitled to put their views, but to say things in first person, that too controversial things which we know since ages, is very distasteful to say the least..

    Here, whenever someone says “I like kishoreda the best”, a flock of migratory birds from the neighbourhood nest comes flying.. But, that way I have never seen any flock of birds from this nest flying vice versa when bullshitting on legends keep happening.. That just makes me feel prouder as a music lover.. I dont bother about hooligans gabbling around, but imposteration is horrible!

    People are yet to find out from the “Genuinely close” associates of the two great MDs about the authenticity of that musician.. Even if he is real, just like another face in the crowded music room in those days, what authority he has to comment on the mentality and behaviour of great souls?

    We talk about giving respect to elderly people, what about disrespecting a musician, who was a poet, a freedom fighter and a mass leader also?? I am talking of Shri Salil Chowdhury..

    You know what shukla ji, there is a thin line of gap between a fan and a fanatic. A fan first learns music and then finds his favourite artist and a fanatic first finds his favourite artist and then tries to mould the whole music according to him.

    Thanks.

  94. 94
    paramjeet Says:

    kishore fans ko kabhi naushad ya o p nayyar ko gaali dene ki ya unke koi comments pe chillanw ki zaroorat nahi padhti.. Aur rafi fans ko har din khaane mein ek na ek artist ka mundi chahiye hi hota hai kaalia banaane ke liye..

    Isi baat se pata chal jata hai WINNER kaun hai aur LOSER kaun..
    Binu nair aur haldar sahab ko bolo apna ‘wah wah’ culture jaari rakhe..waise unke gurudev parampujya nadkarni sahab ki auqat kitni hai industry mein woh to pata chal hi chuka hai..jisko identify karne ke liye hi paseene chhut jaate hai, uski baaton ka value hi kya..saari zindagi kuchh kar na saka ab legends ko gaali deke frustration nikal raha hai.. Fir se dohrata hoon, isi se pata chalta hai ke WINNER kaun hai aur LOSER kaun.

  95. 95
    paramjeet Says:

    waise kuchh aur bolna chahunga rd-guruji ke baare mein.

    Agar Aradhana mein aesa hua tha, jo ki sahi bhi hai, to itna halla kyun? Kya rafi sahab itna kamzor the ke ek Aradhana ne sab ujaad diya??? Doston, zara gaur farmaiyega, bahut important baat hai, Aradhana ke baad guruji ke baaki performances.

    Safar(1970): MD kalyanji anandji. Sad,philosophical , aradhana se bilkul alag.
    Prem pujari(1970): MD sachin dev burman. ultra romantic. Ultra melodious.
    Johny mera naam(1970): MD kalyanji anandji. Full masti and cheed khaani.
    Aan milo sajna(1970): dono ko barabar ka mauka mila aur kishoreda ne dusre gayak ko just flat kar diya.
    Pavitra papi(1970): sirf ek gana, magar aaj bhi log us picture ko woh ‘teri duniya se hoke majboor chala’ ke liye hi yaad rakhe hai.
    kati patang(1970): bas guruji hi guruji.
    Amar prem(1971): kishoreda ne dikha diya semi classical theme pe bhi woh kya ghazab kar sakte hai.
    Hare rama hare krishna(1971): sad, romantic, devotional, sabmein unhone kamaal kar diya. Bas suno aur magan ho jaao.
    Sharmilee(1971): romantic, semi classical, sad, masti- sab woh rang dikha diya guru ne jise sunke log sirf taarif hi kar paye aur kuchh nahi(1-2 exception to honge hi)
    Gambler(1971): kehte hai ‘dil aaj shayar’ ke liye dusra gayak ko bulaya tha pehle’ nahiaa paye to kishoreda ne gaya. Aur aesa gaya ke jab tak burmandada zinda the, aur kisi gayak ki zaroorat unko kabhi nahi padi…

    Aur bhi bahut geet hai, magar mitron, kya aap ko lagta hai yeh sab politics hai???? Ya ek Aradhana hi kaafi tha?? Gurudev ko ek mauka mila indusrry mein aur unhone chhakke chhuda di sabki..politics agar hua hai ti woh unke saath, 60s mein, jab industry ne unki qadr nahi jaani..

    Jo log Aradhana ko leke chillate hai, woh is liye ki unko dar lagta hai’ agar sahi mein analysis kiya jaye to kamaal Aradhana ke baad hi hua tha.. khaali ckassic hi baaki tha, jab Amar Prem me bhairavi aur khambaaj ga diya guruji ne, to aur kuchh kehne ko baaki nahi raha- a generation of Rafi lovers got converted to Kishore lovers!!!

  96. 96
    shukla de Says:

    Arghya ji,

    Well said. In fact I had posted another strong post for binu nair ji in the other community which was not posted (as expected which happens when you raise some straight forward queries – & specially when Mr. Binu Nair is questioned) you can understand.

  97. 97
    Prabhanjan Says:

    “You know what shukla ji, there is a thin line of gap between a fan and a fanatic.”

    Technically speaking (grammatically speaking), fan is just an abbreviation of the word “fanatic” 😀

  98. 98
    paramjeet Says:

    jo bolna tha bol diya unko.. Nahi to jaise chal raha tha waise hi chalega wahan pe.. Jab jin logon ko gaali de rahe hai unke gharwalon ko fikr nahi hai, to hum kaun hai??

    Aur gaali do..kuchh suggestions, gaali ke liye:

    Anil biswas(because he said kishore overtaking rafi was only a matter of time)
    C Ramchandra(because he said kishore had the best voice amongst all)
    Satyajit ray(because he said kishore is the best voice in india)
    Bhimsen joshi: who still admires Kishore as the best..
    Javed akhtar: khair chhodo…

    Aur maine lataji, ashaji, rd etc,etc. Ka naam nahi liya.. Aese chhote logon ko bahut joote pad chuke hai mahaan rafi bhakton se….

  99. 99
    J.K. Bhagchandani Says:

    I am basically a music lover but leaned more towards Rafi. Today for the first time I visited this site and read this article. I respect writer’s devotion to KK (whatever be the reasons) and have no issues on that. Everyone is entitled to his or her likes and dislikes. That is the reason I disliked the war of words on the ‘other community site’ (that is how this writer calls it). But I find that same thing is happening here also, in fact more vigorously and more aggressively.
    Leaving the mud slinging part apart, what shocked me on this site is (and in this article) is that in a systematic and orchestered way the mediocrity is glorified. KK’s devotional songs that are mentioned in write-up (for example Bhole o bhole…., krishna Krishna bolo Krishna….., “Jai Bholenath Jai Ho Prabhu” etc.) do not come even in the category of ‘good songs’ (leave aside dubbing them as ‘classics’). I know all KK fans are going to jump on this. The write-up is a poor attempt to project KK as a singer who could also sing bhajans (which was not his forte… let us admit it).
    Kishore has many great songs to his credit. No one denies his talent… but let us also admit his limitations. The site should concentrate more on his good work rather than trying hopelessly to project him above other stalwarts.
    Lalit Ganpathy’s posts are in poor taste. If he says that he can sing ‘Man tadpat hari darshan ko aaj…’ better than Rafi…. well I can only sympathize with his sense of self-judgement. Naushad must be a fool not to have discovered Mr Lalit Ganapaty.
    And then there is one Mr. Paramjit …. left to him he might resort to real hard core gaalis.
    Trust me I like Kishore very much. But this kind of amateurish and at times fanatic approach will only hurt Kishore’s reputation.

  100. 100
    arghya Says:

    Well, let me tell you some problems with Salil Chowdhury which the fans of a great singer always have.. Something unexplainable, but quite interesting..Because, Salil is one MD, if you consider his associations with male singers(forget abour female voice[s]), in the top 5, Rafi sahab would never feature(with due respect to his 20 songs with salilda).. Which is even for R D Burman would not happen( even if a distant, Rafi sahab would definitely finish runner up).. For Salil Chowdhury creme-da-le-creme went to Manna De, Mukesh, Hemant Kumar(Hemanta Mukhopadhyay), Yesudas(in later half) and to some extent Kishore Kumar and Talat Mehmood.. Add to that for 15 years, Salil achieved artistic and commercial success with Anand, Mere Apne, Annadata, Rajnigandha, Chhoti si Baat, Anokha Daan, Agni Pariksha etc. ( which his contemporaries like OP and Naushad could not in the 70s) without the help of a particular singer, can really make the blood of the fans of that singer boil..

    For me, I would rate for male singer under SC this way:
    1. Manna De
    2. Mukesh
    3. Hemant Kumar
    4. Yesudas
    5. Kishore Kumar/ Talat Mehmood.

  101. 101
    Mr D P BIJOOR Says:

    Post 100 — Arghyajee
    For your kind information Rafi Saab has sung total 25 songs with Salil Choudhary comprising of 15 solo songs & 10 duet songs

  102. 102
    arghya Says:

    Post No. 99

    J K. Bhagchandaniji..

    Are you the last word to define what is “good” and what is “mediocre”? If you have read the article properly, you should know I have explicitly mentioned Kishoreda is definitely not the one to sing the best devotional songs in the films.. But, still your comments prove how “insecured” you people are, even after admitting Kishore is not the best devotional singer, you epople still want to keep them unearthed, as if, something “undesirable to you” would come out!! May I ask why? I particularly mentioned that it is the readers who would decide whether the songs are good or not, and I do not have any authority to decide.. It is only an attempt to let people know what Kishore had in devotional category..

    And at least, thank Kishoreda, Bhagchandaniji, that we do not abuse greats like OP( who ended up saying Amit Kumar is a better singer than his father!!) or Naushad( who had said once that classically untrained singers can achieve nothing) like you people do with Salil or Pancham.. Let me tell you, Bhagchandaniji, Salil not only held a very high regard for Rafi but also told quite explicitly that Rafi had an edge over Kishore!

    But, you guys are never satisfied with Jupiter ans Saturn theory, but always want things to happen in Sun and Lamp theory- which unfortunately, was never the case, is never the case and would never be the case!

    Thanks.
    Arghya Dutta.

  103. 103
    arghya Says:

    Let me also say that, yes, I strike at Rafi fans, because of their foolish and abusive remarks at the other legends.. And they respond to me with more comical abusive remarks at the legends only..9lots of laugh)

    That is why their response comes interms of:
    1. Salil Chowdhury was a murderer and imprisoned.
    2. R D Burman had trash music.
    3. Kishore Kumar had a hoarse voice..
    4. Anil Biswas was a chameleon.

    Lataji and Ashaji also had their share of classical comic statements as well..

    Logical questions should be answered in logical ways, not in comical ways..Eternal fools( as one of colleague puts it) are eternal caricatures also, really!

  104. 104
    unknow Says:

    Mohd Rafi classic song in KK voice and please stop to say that KK is versatile genius……….pleas never try to compare him with other singer or as actor to other actor or director to other director………
    There only two versatile singer in Bollywood Mohd Rafi and Asha ji and after them Lata ji with Mannay day

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioSOHB0HeTU&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd1_yG9k11w

    In Mohd Rafi Voice
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvW7LbUidao&feature=related

    Mohd Rafi like sun shine please stop to compare with monn and stars

  105. 105
    Peeyush Says:

    I love music and particularly old hindi music. As such I love to listen to any one from KLS, KC DEy, Pahadi SDanyal, Kanan Devi to all greats and even Mubarak Begum, Suman K, Krishna Kalle, Sharda etc. I find my self loving each and every singer as I love each and every music composer. I do not think any true music lover can indulge in mud slinging for any other artist. Music is direct derivation from Almighty and is divine in its all aspects.
    I live in Toronto, Canada. And peculiarly, I was the one who wrote the main tribute one full page write up on Kishore in Screen when he died in 1987. I have also written, edited and published a biography of Anil Biswas. I have conducted intensive (20 to 100 hour) interviews with Hemant, Salil, Ravi, Waheeda Rehman, VK Murthy, RD Burman, Meena Kapoor, Vijay Anand, Shakti Samanta, Amit Kumar, Manna Dey etc. A very brief one with Rafi as well. Believe me, all are great as they have given so much pleasure for us to cherish all our lives. Listen to music and love it. Drive away all negetivity and just enjoy, it is Divine. Regards. Peeyush.

  106. 106
    J.K. Bhagchandani Says:

    Post 102,

    Dear Mr. Aragya,

    You are absolutely right that I am no authority to decide what is good and what is mediocre. But nor are you. Hope you agree. You said that it is people (readers) to decide whether devotional songs you mentioned are good or not. So dear, I gave my views (about those songs) as a reader only, but perhaps you were mentally not ready for that. In fact in your own admission the devotional songs you mentioned were not the best devotional film songs. So doesn’t writing about ‘not so great songs’ form an act of ‘glorifying the mediocrity’ (that I mentioned in my previous post)?

    I don’t know why you had to bring Salilda in your reply. He was never part of this discussion. But since you have mentioned him, let me point out one thing. In your post no. 100 you have said that Mohd. Rafi will not feature in first 5 male singers that Salilda was associated with. However in post 102 you say that “Salil not only held a very high regard for Rafi but also told quite explicitly that Rafi had an edge over Kishore!” If that is so then why was Kishore preferred over Rafi by Salilda? Is this not a fit case of regional considerations overpowering professional (or should we say musical) judgment?

    I do not subscribe to abusing greats on this or the ‘other community’ site. But don’t be under the illusion that Kishore fans are not indulging into it. Please read all the posts of this article only… of Paramjit … and so many others. In fact your post no 100 you have done precisely the same but in a polished way using your English language skills to your advantage.
    Coming to your point of Rafi fans feeling ‘insecure’…. oh dear, come on…. I am sure you must be kidding. In fact your write up, your posts suggest that it is the other way round. Most of the write-ups, posts here have the under-current of ‘insecurity’ in the face of enormity of Rafi’s extra-rich musical wealth.

    It is neither a case of Jupiter and Saturn nor Sun and Lamp theory. In plain simple words Kishore Kumar was a very good singer, and Mohd. Rafi was an exceptional (out of the world) singer. Your last phrase of post 102 “……which unfortunately, was never the case, is never the case and would never be the case!” is an indicator of not only ‘insecurity’ but also of desperation.

    Aragya ji… please take this post in the right spirit. I have absolutely nothing against Kishore. It is your somewhat irrational logic and attempt to project him above all that has prompted me to write this.
    Meanwhile to brighten your mood, sending below to you a link of a rare Kishore gem (duet with Meena Kapoor). This is one my favourite songs of Kishore Kumar. (this is just to indicate that I do like Kishore Kumar too, and am fully aware of his very fine songs)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLHsR_v79S0

    Thank You.

  107. 107
    arghya Says:

    To my friend Kishorefan:

    Dear, I saw some eternal fools arguing with you that RD used Rafi more than Kishore during 1978-1980. Brother, just show those fools this link:

    http://www.yoodleeyoo.com/kishore-diary/an-endless-feud-between-the-fans-of-mohammed-rafi-and-kishore-kumar.html/comment-page-51/#comments

    Refer to my post 1269 and put in front of them..
    A pure statistics just to clear their foggy vision glass

  108. 108
    arghya Says:

    Post No. 104.

    Bro, dont give hillarious comparison..

    Was Mohammed Rafi an actor acting in more than 69 movies as hero resulting in singing(as well as acting on the screen) around 300 songs being picturized on him?

    Had it been the case, he also would have had his own share of giving lips to other singers singing for him.. (due to various reasons of course)

    Don’t mind.. I sound harsh a bit to nonsense statements to prove greatness.

    Bhagchandaniji..

    I dont know what you got from my post 100.. I wrote it as an analysis of your colleagues’ reactions to a great freedom fighter cum mass leader cum poet cum composer called Salil Chowdhury. And I cross my side of the fence only when I read abusive and controversial remarks and not like you people who poke their noses even when a genuine music discussion is going on.. Your comment saying “Krishna krishna bolo krishna” a below average song, itslef shows how “insecured” you are and how biasedly you take music..

    Talking of regionalism, Bhagchandaniji, Lata Mangeshkar sang more Bengali songs under Salil than Sandhya Mukhejee( the voice of Suchitra Sen in Bengali movies and a positive combo with Salilda also ).. Come out of myopic views and appreciate which singer had what best in his/her voice which were exploited by several MDs matching with their style.. Salil Chowdhury very explicitly meant that Rafi had edge over Kishore due to his classical training(which I have agreed also more than once in this forum only)- or rather “Alankar” part of classical singing, to be more precise. Salil Chwodhury was never a genuine pure Indian classical composer, neither he used to undertake historical or devotional assignments too many… His compositions were rhythmic with spontaneous switching of notes, traversing and hopping across octaves, orchestrated and harmonized to perfection.. So, he chose voices who could do those jobs for him perfectly- as simple as that!!!

    Lastly, can you imagine “Koi hota jisko apna” in 1971 in Rafi sahab’s voice which requires constant traversing in lowest octave? “dha”..”ni”..”dha”..”pa”..( in the mukhda)? Salil had given a low octave song to Rafi sahab way back in 1958 with “ni” or “dha” in the lowest octave being the lowest note.. Koi hota was even lower, so, perhaps he had his choice of singer acordingly..

    Please take music technically and accept certain facts with a clear vision glass rather than “insecurity” and “biasedness”..

    “Yeh sama hum tum jawan” is a lovely composition from Roshan sahab from the film Maashooqa(1953).. Mukeshji was the hero this film and this song was picturized on Agha who was the side actor this film.. Listen to “Jhilmil taare kare hain ishaare” from the same film by Mukeshji.. A masterpiece composition..

    Thanks.

  109. 109
    arghya Says:

    And those who know me personally also know that I am an admirer of not only Rafi sahab but also to all the legends who constituted the golden era of film music..

    But, perhaps, the difference between you and me is I admire Rafi sahab for indeed what he was and not exaggerated things like “out of this world”.I dont use such lines for Kishoreda also.. lolz.

  110. 110
    J.K. Bhagchandani Says:

    Dear Mr. Arghya Datta,

    How is it that your admiration for Rafi saab is known only to those personally known to you (post 109)? Do you sing different tunes at personal level and at public forums? Ok ok dear don’t get worked up, I know you do admire Rafi saab too, and have mentioned this in some of the posts but this admiration has almost always been ‘guarded’, kind of an attempt to do a balancing act. It was this ‘urge’ to do the balancing act that prompted you to write post no. 109 (as an after-thought). It is like a debate on a news channel between spokespersons of two rival political parties, wherein the participants start with, “ I have great respect for Mr. so and so… he is good friend of mine, but……. (and then the bashing starts)..” In your case it is just the other way round…. you start with negatives in a very systematic way… and then at the end express your respect/ admiration only as a footnote, mainly to ward off the ‘bias’ tag.

    I agree that expressions such as ‘out of this world’ or ‘exceptional’ are of extreme nature; and I feel that these should be used only in ‘rarest of rare cases’. I also feel that that is what I did. There is no element of inappropriateness using these terms for Mohammad Rafi. Leave aside ordinary mortal like me (and you), musical luminaries like Yesudas, Sonu Nigam, O.P. Nayyar, Ravi, Naushad, Laxmikant-Pearelal, Bhupendra (the list is long, my dear) have used similar (if not same) expressions for him.

    Coming to the first part of your post No.108, your argument is laughable. One great playback singer singing for another great singer-cum-hero needs some attention. It was not a case that singer-cum-hero was too busy (it was not seventies decade). Your conveniently brushing aside the matter (as ‘just one of those things’- that too in a harsh and undignified manner) is an expression of arrogance or ignorance or both. All people with some knowledge and interest in film music know the reason. You too know it. Just in case you need a refresher on that please spare 10 minutes only. Listen carefully to just two songs: (1) man mora baawra…… from film Ragini and (2) Ajab hai dastaan… from the film Shararat. Listen carefully with ‘open’ mind and with your heart (not merely ears) into it. You will be reminded of the reasons for rather curious occurrence of Mohd. Rafi singing for Kishore Kumar.

    Regarding the song ‘Krishna Krishna bolo krishna…..’ your indigestion to my likes and dislikes is difficult to understand. Or may be the word ‘bias’ has got a new definition now. It is like saying “Like everything that Mr. Arghya Datta likes and don’t what he does not.” Or else you will be branded as biased. In one of your posts you have listed the songs sung by Rafi and Kishore together, and you have gone on to give your verdict and declaring that in so many songs Kishore sounds better than Rafi and in remaining both are equally good. Now you tell me who is biased and who is feeling ‘unsecured’?

    I have a decent collection of more than 100 filmi and non-filmi bhajans of many singers (K.L. Saigal, Pankaj Mullick, Mohd. Rafi, Mukesh, Manna Dey, Hemant Kumar, Mahendra Kapoor, Lata Mangeshkar, Asha Bhonsle Geeta Dutt etc.)….. but non from Kishore Kumar and Talat Mehamood. It does not dilute the greatness of either Kishore or Talat; nor it is a case of being bias. It is just that among those top 100 odd bhajans.. Kishore’s did not fit in as per my choice. (I am not aware if Talat has sung any bhajan or not…. If he has…I will request you to kindly enlighten me on that). It was in this context that a full fledged article on this aspect of Kishore Kumar (I mean his bhajans) is out of place. As I am not an authority on what is good and what is bad (as you said) and nor are you (as per me), the other neutral benchmark could be that you please list out all the bhajans of Kishore Kumar that have found place in HMV’s and any other music company’s bhajan albums released from time to time in the last 60 years. With your encyclopedia like knowledge, I am sure you can do it. In the process you will get your answers and priorities right.

    Lastly just one clarification, above comments are for Hindi bhajans. Just in case Kishore has sung some Bangla bhajans, I am not aware. Above comment is not aimed for those bhajans. And sorry for getting the spelling of your name wrong in my previous posts.

    Thank You.

  111. 111
    Vitthal Says:

    Mr. Bhagchandani

    Mr. Arghya is balanced in his posts. Even other kishore fans are balanced in their posts. Musicians such as Surajit Bose etc. are reasonable and blaanced in their views. You might not have used the word out of this world except in rarest of rare cases but many rafi fans do, for the purpose of which Mr. Arghya has quoted that. Your other messages – many other singers praising rafi that is well. But do you ( & other rafi fans) know the greatest ghantasala, with whom my relative talked for nearly 8 hours in early 70’s did not mention rafi even once and it was the other way round, indeed rafi and lata stated ghantasala as the greatest. You can read lata mangeshkar’s comments on ghantasala in his website. The purpose of my quoting this point is that : you have stated many singers praising rafi, but in my view these singers have praised rafi (of course ghantasala too on equal terms) because they believed rafi (& ghantasala) were greater than them. But the fact is, did any singer whom rafi considered to be the greatest ever praised rafi. There lies the greatness factor. Of course, as a nice human being ghantasala never commented on any singer in his life, that is a different issue, but on different occasions rafi did indeed praise ghantasala. (Rafi has sung 2 songs in 1964 in hindi film jhanda ooncha rahe hamara under the music direction of ghantasala – despite this ghantasala never commented on rafi) The telugu music director Adi Narayana Rao, while recording hindi version of kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya had told rafi that please sing in your own way and please do not try to adapt the culture of ghantasala as that was not possible. This was stated by rafi himself, as he was trying to sing in the culture of ghantasala, but all know that he could not do that. Of course, the hindi version of the song is nice by rafi and lata, & great next to the telugu number of the same.

    Same was with kishore, rafi many times praised kishore as well. Why rafi fans do not quote this point. Many rafi fans say such and such singer has praised rafi, but what about rafi praising others. Why this is not remembered. Pl. do not quote one sided views. Rafi is definitely a great singer, but I agree fully with Mr. Arghya, that he is not fully exceptional or out of the world. Rafi too has limitations. In one post One mr. Raj, a kishore fan was correctlly stating that a continuous 3 octave composition like siva sankari of ghantasala from lower notes to higher notes in 3 octaves continuously, rafi would have failed. I agree with Mr. Raj, I am yet to hear a song of Rafi which is composed in all the 3 octaves simultaneously similar to the siva sankari song of ghantasala or syamala dandakam of ghantasala which is rendered in 8 ragas simultaneously and touching the highest possible note in music by ghantasala comfortably. Discussions were had with S P Balasubramaniam on this issue, and he agreed that it is not possible for any singer to reach that level. The syamala dandakam of ghantasala is a challenge to the best of exceptional singers. When this point was raised by one Mr. Satyansh ( who is a bengali and not a ghantasala fan) in rafi forum, he was asked to get out of that forum, what is this going on at rafi forum. Similar views were expressed with Mr. Surajit Bose. Please do not think that I am comparing one singer with another, but I only wanted to remove the notion of many people claiming rafi as out of world etc. which is purely biased and subjective. There are some rafi fans who are quite balanced in their views and they are respected in even kishore forums. You can check this yourselves.

    By the way kishore fans or ghantasala fans never passed any degraded comments on rafi at any time ( you can check this in rafi forum)) but in many cases, including binu nair, have passed unpleasant comments against other singers. This indicates pure jealousy towards other legends and of course nothing can be done to remove that, because nothing can be done to remove the greatness of other legends.

  112. 112
    Vitthal Says:

    Dear Mr. Bhagchandani, contd… to my previous post

    Further, in my view some songs such as yeh dil na hota bechara, kisi shayar ki nazar, zindagi ek safar hai suhana etc. the attraction would not have been similar to kishore, if the same were sung by any other hindi singer. Kishore had a bit of majestic voice, which was attractive in its own way and in my view, perhaps rafi might have rendered those songs great but still might not have been as attractive as kishore. The song salamat rahe dostana hamara or yaadon ki barat, two famous duets by these two legends, in my view kishore is more attractive as compared to rafi. So kishore has his own attraction.

  113. 113
    arghya Says:

    Bhagchandani ji..

    You wrote so many things.. Great sir.. i encourage those.. Some points from me:

    1. You mentioned three songs being trash,viz, “Krishna krishna bolo krishna”, “Bhole o bhole” and ” Jai bolentah”.. I objected on only one song.. This makes the picture clear that Rafi fans go “overboard” while degrading others..Cool down and keep your BP under control.

    2. Let me clarify the songs which Rafi sahab sang for Kishoreda..
    a. Two songs in Bhagam Bhag(1956).. Bhagchandaniji, yes, it was not 70s.. But does that mean Kishore was not busy? In case you do not know how many releases Kishore had in 1956, let me list out:
    > Bhagam Bhag
    > New Delhi
    >Bhai Bhai
    > Paisa Hi Paisa
    > Naya Andaz
    >Memasahib
    >Dhake ki malmal

    Do you know, Bhagchandanini, even today, to complete 6 movie assignments as a lead actor in one calender year is what?? You might not, as you have never seen a movie making.. Do you know how many hours a person had to spent time in shooting in those perfectionast times to act as a leading hero? Who told you Kishore was only busy in the 70s? he was, but from a singer perspective, you have never analyzed the amount of business Kishore had in the 50s..

    b. Yes, “Man mora bawra” and “Ajab hai dastaan teri zindagi” are the only two songs which were “intentionally offered to Rafi to sing for Kishore by the MDs”- and I have put them in colons.. Kishore wanted to sing but he was deprived.. These two are the exceptions amongst the 11 songs which Kishore gave lip to other singers( 7 Rafi- 2 Bhagam Bhag, 1- Ragini, 1- Shararat, 1- Baghi Shehzada, 1-Pyar Deewana and 1- Paisa hi Paisa, 1 SD Batish- Bhagam Bhag, 2- Manna-Krorepati, Bewakoof and 1-Mukesh, Rangoli). OP Nayayr explicitly mentioned “he wanted to teach a lesson to Kishore for his disobedience in recording and hence gave the song to Rafi”.. you decide, Bhagchandaniji.. SJ had also gone through same circumstances as during the recording of “Ajab hai daastan teri zindagi” Kishore did not turn up on time for the recording.. The year of release of Shararat? April, 1959.. Just to show you how busy was Kishore that time, here is a list of movies he released in 1958:
    >Ragini
    > Kabhi andhera kabhi ujala
    >Chandan
    > Chalti ka naam gaadi
    > Dilli ka thug
    > Luko churi

    Do you know what is releasing 6 movies again in a claenbder year, Bhagchandani ji? You never know, you have never seen a film making.. That too “CKNG” and “Luko churi” being Kishore’s own productions.. Do you think he was always there to oblige the MDs to come for recording on time for a song? Some MDs were understanding (C Ramchandra, Salil, Hemant Kumar, SD, Anil Biswas, Madan Mohan etc.), some were not, that is their choice..

    3. Please dont try to mould history, your own weakness and biasedness would get more magnified in that.. Stop this, for your own betterment. By the way, another trivia for you. During the making of Baghi Shehzada, Kishore was in Shimla for shooting. And a song recording had to take place.. He was not there and the director called him.. Kishore said “I cannot come, do it with Rafi sahab”( due to the fact that Rafi had already done that job previously also).. And that resulted into ” Main is massom chehre ko”… A great song for Kishore by Rafi.. Read and learn Bhagchandani ji, ,, Kishore had a great respect for Rafi which has always been moulded and represented by Rafi fanatics in their own convenient way…

    “Pyar Deewana” was released in 1972.. Have you seen the movie, Bhagchandani ji? or seen the video of “Aapni aadat hai”? See it, carefully.. Compare the Mumtaz there with Mumtaz in “Apna Desh” or ” Dushman” released in that same time.. She looks five -six years younger.. The movie was completed by 1967 but was not released as it was small budget and producers did not have any hope of the movie with a low profile actress(Mumtaz was still not at her best that time) and a flop hero(Kishore was undergoing his worst phase in career then).. It was released after six years, as by then, both the people(Kishore and Mumtaz) had made a turnaround in their career and were at the top..

    I wonder, what kind of analysis you have made of film history, Bhagchandaniji?? Very conveniently twisted and turned to Rafi sahab’s way it seems?

    And I have never ever talked on voice purity, resonance, breath control, lowest cotaves, enactment of songs, voice modulation, experimentaion, falsetto voice creation as yet, Bhagchandani ji, and you have already jumped into so much of nonsense? God knows, what would happen if you come face to face to compare an apple with an apple.

    Take care, sir..

    Good Bye.

    Vitthal ji: I know yu like Rafi sahab more than Kishoreji.. I appreciate every bit of it. You are not the only one. Prabhanjan and Manish also holds the same view and they are very close to me, as we share a common sense- to see music in a braoder way. After that, it hardly matters whom we see better- Rafi, kishore, talat, hemant or mahendra kapoor- very immaterial. By the way, dont speak too much of binu nair, he leaves his frustration of kishore kumar fans on kishore kumar only!!! What a gem of a man he is! the best leader that ever was…

  114. 114
    arghya Says:

    Vithalji..

    Satyansh is not a Bengali.. He stays in US and is one of my very close friends.. We spend hours together discussing music over phone.. Although he had strictly instructed me not to reveal this to anyone, I cannot stop here quoting that he is a family member of one of the most legendary lyricist of the golden era of film music.. Only because, he is a fan of Manna and Kishore, he was treated severly at the Rafi site by some wild goose..

    And he is one of the most balanced music analysists I have evr come across.. Of course, there are more people like Srivasji, Surajitji, Manish just to name a few..

  115. 115
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji,

    I cannot stop but appreciate your views in these forums. Keep it up Arghya ji. Thanks for enlightening me on satyansh ji – yes he was a very balanced analyst and the way he was treated at rafi forum is indeed pitiable – such a man with such music knowledge was asked to leave by some rafi fans………… Even Mr. Khan, Mr Surajit Bose etc. were also not spared. I could get your disguised comment on Binu nair – great. Arghya ji, really as a rafi fan, I have immense respect for kishore fans like you, surajit bose and others who respect rafi ji as well. Though as a telugu man, I admire ghantasala more and then rafi, I really enjoy kishore ji’s songs equally well. It is a good fortune to discuss about music with nice people like you Arghya ji. All established playback singers have given us beautiful songs for us to enjoy & by successive generations as well and the impact they have left can be hardly measured.

    By the way, sorry for my catching on Mr. Satyansh as a bengali person, as I thought from his discussions that he might be a bengali person with really good music knowledge – thanks for the correction. We really miss him these days in these forums.

    Thanks.

  116. 116
    arghya Says:

    Vithalji.
    Thanks to your post 115, sir. Yes, all the singers in those golden era were awesome in their own way, and we are privileaged to hear them in our lifetime.
    By the way, one interesting thing would like to share. One of the regular members here, Kishorefan, had posted a response in http://www.mohdrafi.com. Although I also differ to what he said( Rafi is not so popular amongst the youth today), I think people are entitled to express their views and if one contradicts, he or she should come out with fatcs and figures or technicality rather than foul mouthing. And again, not surprisingly, barring hardly one or two members there, all the Rafians started abusing and foul mouthing not only Kishore fan but also Kishore Kumar himself! Things like his getting converted to Islam was also brought up! What a despicable response.. One member said “Kishore fans have khujli to come to rafi site”.. Well, if that is the case, then Vithalji, this khujli is nowhere less amongst those violent Rafi fanatics also, and it is proved very well here, in this discussion-time and time again- and we all have seen. But, even my emotional friend Paramjeet, has also never foul mouthed any legend to show Kishore up! A spirit I have always admired..

    Anyways, people dont change and not to expect too much from them also. Vithalji, may I ask you, where do you find Rafi sahab better than Kishore Kumar in playback singing, per se? This is only a musical discussion and let us ignore the outside invasion for the time being. I am asking this because, those who love Ghantashala, tend to find Kishore’s voice more towards textbook.. I heard “Siva Sankari” and I was carried away by the vocal accomplishment by the maestro.. That too, as Srivasji said once, recorded in one take.. I think this is superhuman.. I have not heard Ghantashalaji thoroughly, so, cannnot make any generalized statement, but, Siva Sankari, is a great achievement, perhaps the greatest in Filmy classical numbers.

    Also, what is your take on Manna De and his classical renditions in Hindi film music?

  117. 117
    Rafifan Says:

    Vitthal ji and Arghya ji,

    Your comments on Binu Nair, the leader of rafi foundation, are a bit misleading. Binu Nair has great respect for all music legends. You might not have read properly comments by Binu Nair. Refer post no. 497 in True voice col. of Rafi forum, where in Binu Nair calls ghantasala as the greatest talent the country has produced and requests in a subsequent post to write more articles on ghantasala. This shows the respect of Binu Nair which he had for ghantasala and I have ever seen binu ji continuing his respect for the great legend. Regarding Kishore fans, it was the same response viz., ‘ tit for tat’ given to them and nothing more than in personal capacity to any of the kishore fans. Binu ji had indeed said kishore was a good singer in many posts. It was the kishore fans who continuously start singing praises for kishore in rafi forum and they received the ‘tit for tat’ response and nothing beyond that. Otherwise no rafi fan has ever commented on any singers. Even in kishore forum, hardly rafi fans make any comments unless provoked by some biased kishore fans (not all). The posts of Mr. Bhagchandani are also in similar lines and not aimed at anybody. And lastly, kishore fans know very well that it is a fact that Mohd. Rafi is the most popular and admired singer and he is even praised by ‘ critics ‘.

  118. 118
    paramjeet Says:

    Lo aa gaye aur bhi khujli wale.. Is dafa khujli us mahan gayak ke liye nahi bal ki unke ek namakul bhakt ke liye..

    Rafifan sahab,
    Janab, kuchh din pehle arghyaji rafi forum mein ek aadmi se uske abusive remarks pe kuchh sawalat kare the jisme rafi sahab ya kishoreda ki koi zikr nahi thi.. To aapke adarniya, parampujya Nair sahab(Nair or Nayyar, bhai dono hi zabardast the aur hai) kishoreji ka gala(hoarse voice), panchamji ke dhun(trash music) aur salilda ke khun ka ilzam(murder) wali baat leke kyun baith gaye the?? Kya woh bhi provocation tha?? Agar tha to usme:
    1. Rafi sahab ki koi zikr nahi thi.
    2. Na to rafi sahab ke fans ko gali di. Sirf ek aadmi se uske ghatiya comments ke peechhe ka authenticity poochha gaya. To aap logo ne kishore,pancham,lata,asha,salil,anilda,,jagjit singh,gulzar sabki chhutti kar di… Jab ki wahan pe koi rafi kishore wali baat hi nahi thi..

    yehi culture hai aapke aur binu nair ji ke?? Wahan pe 2-3 achhe rafi sadasya ne binu ki baat ka alochana bhi kari thi.. Woh bhi pad lijiyega takalluf uthaake…

    Seedhi baatin ka seedhi jawab kabhi mila nahi aap logon se siva bakwas ke.. Bhagchandaniji ko yahan neuta deke nahi bulaya kisine, na to unke rafi sahab ko kisine bura bhala bola jo ki woh gussa hoke aa gaye.. Woh bhi yahan pe isi liye aaye, bin bulaye mehmaan ki tarah, taki do char ut patang baatein aur kar ke jaye yahan pe faltu controversy ke liye.

  119. 119
    arghya Says:

    Paramjit.

    I read your post carefully. You are right about your observations on certain people. As I have said, you cannot change people, so let us not take this issue further. They are also music fans, whomsover, has ended up admiring the music of those golden era are indeed music fans, even if biased for certain singers, it should not matter. I have very well said in many posts, with a touch of subjectivity, it can very well be established any one between kishore, rafi or manna, to be the best playback singer in the hindi films. Please, let us not expand this arguement more.

    Binu Nair is “tit for tat” but if the “tit” is for Rafi fans his “tat” goes directly to kishore kumar or pancham or other legendary associates of kishoreji and not always to kishore fans(whom it should have been)- that is his choice.. Let him live in his frustration, brother, we have many more asignments to achive as I have already shared with you..

    As long as someone criticizes Kishore with good intention, I am never against him/her.. I do find it surprising that even after I had admitted Rafi singing better devotional songs than Kishore, some people like Kapil, Haldar, Bhagchandani were even against publishing such article!! That means supressing a fact, which is quite queer! Would you suppress a fact that Mukesh had some 5-6 comedy songs under his belt (as correctly mentioned by Prabhanjan- another true Rafi fan) or Talat did sing some western songs or Mahendra Kapoor also has comedy songs or Rafi had some yoodelling songs???Younger generation should know what is a complete artistic genius of Kishore and that is all.. There would be objecters but there are more admirers, Paramjit, as you can clearly see..

    Let us not take this issue any further.. Dont worry.. You might have also noticed “bang on questions” or “technical queries” are politically avoided by them.. They are afraid.. You are not then why to bother?

    I would also request my friend Kishorefan not to visit that neighbourhood hooliguns too often.. I had visited there with some queries(nothing related to Rafi or Kishore), when they started getting exposed, they took a true ridiculous turn- a shameful one indeed!

    By the way, Paramjit, we discussed only on a genre of Kishoreda songs and so much jealousy, what about discussing a song or a line of a song into a full fledged article there in that neighbourhood community? Isn’t it hillarious??

    Lastly, my article on Kishoreda and Salil Chowdhury has been selected to be translated into a regional magazine in Assam on their fim and music section.. It is the love you spread for which people admire you and not hatred. This last line is for those hooliguns.

    Thanks.

  120. 120
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji – 116

    Thanks for your response and your comments. As you said, Mr. Srivas ji and lalit ji were quoting the nada purity and in this regard I fully agree with them that kishore had a good nada purity. I am in agreement with Srivas ji that kishore without being much technically trained had that nada purity and a great voice which made his singing quite attractive. But to me personally (I may sound subjective) rafi has attraction in terms of melody than kishore. Other than melody factor both are attractive. This is my personal feeling and I have considered this taking into account as a whole i.e many rafi songs. I believe in few songs of kishore even rafi might not have sounded attractive like kishore, that is why my liking and preference of rafi is based as a whole and this is my personal feeling. I further agree with kishore fan ji here that as he said if kishore, given the texture of his voice, if was technically trained he would have been close to ghantasala ji, who had the combination of perfect nada purity, melody as well as advanced classical training. This technical degree of qualification plus his unique voice puts a greater rating on ghantasala. Barring that as Mr Srivas ji had said that S Janaki, southern singer equally respects kishore on par with ghantasala and rafi. All were established singers.Thanks for your views on ghantasala and his song siva sankari – you are perfectly correct in your statements on siva sankari. If you permit and are interested, subject to your permission I will post some interesting melody songs of ghantasala for your esteemed views.

    Manna dey is technically trained, but in my personal view, technically he is correct and fine. But his range does not contain the depth and strength in classical songs which ghantasala had. I have heard few of classical songs of manna such as sur na saje, jhanak jhanak etc. and found him purely technical & classical rather than having good filmy voice which rafi and ghantasala had. Even kishore had a good nada purity than manna dey and further kishore, though not technically trained like manna, sounds more attractive than manna dey. Kishore too had good filmy voice than manna dey. These are my personal views and am open to correction from esteemed music lovers like you arghya ji.

  121. 121
    arghya Says:

    Vitthalji

    I can understand your viewpoints. But one request, please dont call me “esteemed music lover”, please.. I do not deserve such title.. Honestly.. Rather call me friend, a title which superceeds all. Thanks, sir.

    It would be a pleasure if you can share some Ghantashala ji songs here for our discussion. It would be great to explore. I am also planning to upload all the 28 Tagore songs recorded by Kishoreda, I know language barrier would be there, but I think it wont be an obstacle to grasp the “bhava”, “rasa” and the “melody” in those songs.. Also, upto early 80s, I find Kishore songs very much melodious(no doubt some of them are unconventionally melodious, but for them I give him extra marks for being experimental,though:) ), it is only from 83-84 onwards till his death, his songs lost charm due to bad music.. Although he did give a Sagar or a Sharabi but one can feel him having lost the charm to sing filmy songs..

    Keep it up. Awaiting your uploading of Ghantashala songs.

    regards.
    Arghya.

  122. 122
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji,

    Thanks for your simple & nice post. I will be rather interested to participate along with you in hearing kishore kumar songs which you had mentioned. Yesterday, i was listening to some songs of kishore from jewel thief, dream girl and others such as kora kagaz tha ye man mera, yeh shaam mastani etc. and felt very happy on hearing this songs. Really, these days we miss such stype of nice songs. For sure, such nice songs cannot be heard in the coming days as the scenario has changed totally today in the industry – pity indeed.

    Regarding ghantasala, here are few of his melodious numbers – some of the links are not opening – In such case, I request you to kindly type the address given here in your URL and it will directly open the song. As far as possible, I had tried to upload quality videos.

    1. Melodious duet Song by Ghantasala and suseela ( Music direction S Rajeswara Rao acclaimed as the greatest southern music director)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEQHfH812fs

    2. Song by ghantasala and jikki (music direction by Adi narayana rao – who composed kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya in hindi suvarna sundari)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwW5zCD_lZQ

    3. Jayasimha Movie Audio Songs – Chitramala Telugu Songs, Hindi Songs (Pl. type this in google and after typing it, link opens & please hear the second song – eenati ee hayi) – A great melodious song. (I request you to pl. definitely hear this number)

    4.Rasika Raja Thaguvaramu Kaamaa

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Zi5Cxu4Gc

    Type the address in URL it will directly open.

    (This is another classical masterpiece – music directed by Mr. Pendyala Nageshwara Rao who composed/music directed Siva Sankari Song)

    5. A pleasant romantic melodious duet directly hitting at heart (music direction by ghantasala)

    NTR, Savithri – Himagiri Sogasulu

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQVfT93lcIs

    (Type the address in URL it will directly open)

    6. ANR- Naa Hrudayamlo Nidurinche Cheli (beautiful melody solo of ghantasala – I think this is in bengali by Hemant kumar)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLt8TQppsw0

    (Type the address in URL it will directly open)

    7. A great emotional song by ghantasala

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4qRVB4_d_A

    (this was very appreciated by Mr. Manish kumar in rafi forum)

    I wait for your views dear friend Arghya ji.

  123. 123
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji,

    The links are directly opening. I think you need not type the address in URL.

  124. 124
    paramjeet Says:

    arghya ji,

    As you have said, log badalte nahi. You are very honst and dignified in your posts. kash aapse woh log bhi kuchh sikhte, dusron ko izzat deke hi ek insaan izzatdaar banta hai.

    Vitthalji, meri aapse guzarish hai kuchh guruji ke gaane sunke unke upar apne comments dene ki liye.. Main youtube dekhta nahi hoon to mujhe links ka pata nahi, aap krupaya youtube mein dekh lijiyega search karke shayad mil jaye:
    . Husn bhi hai udaas udaas
    . Jagmag jagmag karta nikla chand poonam ka pyara
    . koi humdum na raha
    . Man kare yaad woh din
    . Payalwali dekhna
    . Chanda ki kirano se lipati hawayein
    . Hum log hai aese deewane duniya ko jhukakar
    . Aa mohabbat ki basti basayenge hum
    . Hawaon pe likh do hawaon ke naam
    . Panthi hoon main us path ka

    Mujhe poora vishwas hai, Vitthalji, yeh chand geet sun ne ke baad aap ek naya kishore kumar ko payenge. Bahut dino baad ek achha Rafi bhakt mila hai yahan par, Vitthalji ko mera pranam.

  125. 125
    arghya Says:

    Vithalji, at the outset thanks so much for the songs.
    I can’t express my feelings after listening to the song Rasika Raja(song No. 4)… Sir, I am feeling short of words.. Taan which he takes ranging from the lowest octave to the highest one is breathtaking.. I dont wear hats otherwise I would have put that in front of Ghantashalaji’s photograph.. It is not only a song, Vithalji, it is a musical extravaganza..

    Song No.6 is another gem.. You are right, it is also there in Bengali.. But not by Hemanta, but by Shyamal Mitra, who composed and sang this song in the movie Sagarika(1958).. When was the Telugu song made Vithalji? I dont know who is the original composer and all that, but the first thing I am going to do is to put this song in our community so that people know how Ghantashala had excelled the Bengalis in their own game..And I mean it..

    Song no. 7 did not appeal me much.. The actor on the screen was highly melodramatic(no offense to him,just expressing my views) so is the emoting of the song.. Must have been an instruction from the MD.. Rafi fans would definitely love it, as the pitch and the emoting of the song would remind them of “O duniya ke rakhwale”. Again, it is actually a compliment to Ghantashalaji, as he can be equally appealing to both Kishore fans as well as Rafi fans..

    Rest all the songs are very lovely.. Song No. 1 I would remember for a long long time.. Really melodious one..

    Thanks so much for all of them.

    Also, please listen to the songs Paramjit has given, rightly it would open a new window to you.. I am trying to give the links of some of the songs here:

    1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDPb2ShfjHo
    Just see his control on the lowest octave. And switching to highest octave so spontaneously.

    2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO4P4o1Fx-U&feature=PlayList&p=4F326D5C3FBA9021&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=14

    A masterpiece. See how comfortably Kishore puts into Talat shoes.

    3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DnX-T9BQZ4&feature=PlayList&p=4F326D5C3FBA9021&index=17

    One of the earliest gems.. Magnificient song..

    4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM-cQB2SyFs

    The Tagore song from a Satyajit Ray movie..Well, Vitthalji, there were people like Satyajit Ray amongst “critics” who claimed Kishore to be the best,, and not wrongly, I suppose.

    5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvY-FAZ_-fQ

    One of my all time favourites.. Composed and sung by Kishore only!

    6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AUdArL30gY

    A superb variation in Bhairavi.. A Bengali masterpiece

    7. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU-OaV1vpOQ

    The best song of Kishoreji in the 80s. Thanks to Salilda who seemed to have composed the song only keeping kishoreji in mind!

    8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qwuc-pI1ws

    People talk so much about KK-SD, but hardly anyone mentions about this song, Vithalji.. Ask me and I would say it is a better vocal accomplishment than Dukhi Man Mere from the same movie.. Just see the brath control of Kishore

    9. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_ITslFEtHc

    I think your complaint on melody would be gone after this song Vithalji.. Another sublime song composed by Hemant Kumar and sang by Kishore

    10. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGS-INWQjwQ

    This song was recorded and later removed by Kishore from the movie “Door Gagan ki Chhaon Mein” because he thought this song was too serious.. Just listen, Vitthalji, an orchestraless masterpiece.. This is what I call experimentation!

  126. 126
    kishorefan Says:

    Arghya ji,

    Thanks for your valuable advise sir. I have stopped visiting rafi forum site, as the discussions are taking unpleasant turns. Sir, I am waiting for the kishore ji songs to be uploaded by you.

    Vitthal ji,

    Thank you very much for your compliments on Kishore kumar ji. Very few balanced rafi fans like you could correctly catch the greatness of kishore kumar. Yeh shaam mastani is really a pleasant evening song which creates a cool effect in one’s mind. As my friend arghya ji states that kishore voice was great until early eighties when all sort of diluted music started pouring in and we all know that after kishore the melody of hindi music stopped.

    On ghantasala ji. (I have heard this magnificient maestro earlier – courtesy rafi forum)

    Thanks for posting ghantasala ji songs. As surajit bose ji and others have said, It is beyond doubt that he is certainly ahead & greater than rafi in terms of melody as well as technical and bhava presentation. Classical masterpieces, anyhow none can surpass ghantasala ji , it is quite clear. I have carefully heard all the 7 songs listed by you in your post 122. The taans which ghantasala ji executes in his style and speed, I think hardly any singer can come nearer. It is a gifted talent. The Jayasimha song – eenati ee hayi – what a melodious number with taans executed nicely wiith speed. Similar was rasika raja – classical masterpiece. The first song link by ghantasala and suseela (chelikadu) – velvet melody of ghantasala is example in this song. Really, he has a magnificient voice.

    The Bengali song of Na hrudayamlo— I have heard ( I am not clear who sang it whether hemant or manna) but the telugu one by ghantasala is greater than the bengali one in terms of melody. Thanks for the great songs of the great maestro. It is a big surprise how such a great singer did not sing even a single hindi song. As already stated by surajit bose ji earlier, ghantasala ji easily surpasses all his female counterparts as well in his songs.

    I had remarked earlier, Kishore if well technically trained, given the texture of his voice, would have been nearer to ghantasala, sure to be.

    Rafi fans specially one Mr. MYK says in rafi forum that rafi is classically great. But I have not heard a single song of rafi with taans execution with speed & also in terms of length of taans at least to the half of ghantasala ji’s executions. I do not know why rafi fans such as MYK simply make fake comments on rafi ji diluting facts.

    Vitthal ji, – Mr. Satyansh had stated in rafi forum ( myself and satyansh ji participated in true voice forum once with rafi fans) that ghantasala ji’ s genius is much ahead of rafi, and I am going to leave rafi site as a ghantasala fan – This was the main reason, he was asked to leave by rafi fans specially Mr. Haldar and Mr. Binu Nair, because they did not want to digest the truths. That is about so called great rafi fans.

  127. 127
    kishorefan Says:

    Vitthal ji,

    contd.. to previous post of mine,

    Last line may please be read as that is about so called some biased rafi fans. In fact rafi fans like you sir, speak out the truths. Pranams vitthal ji.

  128. 128
    myk Says:

    Kishorefan,

    Thanks for mentioning me, I didn’t know my comments affected you so many months later.

    Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh, the doyen of Hindustani classical music rated Rafi as the best exponent of classical music. Countless classical greats including the likes of Yesudas, Naushad, Illayaraaja, Manna Dey, Shankar (of S-J) etc., rate/rated Rafi as the best. Are you more qualified than them to pass judgement on Rafi’s classical abilities (or abilities in general ?). Please let me know.

    One example, check out “Naache man mora” from SDB’s MSTA, where Rafi executes that fast-paced taans to perfection. There are many other songs, where Rafi has done full justice to songs of a classical nature. IMO Ghantasala was strong in classical music, but aside from that I would not rate him as a complete singer. Here is where Rafi was the ‘all-rounder’. I have yet to come across anyone with songs of such a high level and repertoire. I also don’t find Ghantasala as melodious as others. Kishore, although not strong on the classical front, could mesmerize you with his emotional renditions such as “Woh shaam kuch ajeeb thi”, “Diye jalte hain phool khilte hai”, “Diwana leke aaya hai” etc.

    Rafi-saab is beyond compare, and that is the view held by not only many music personalities, but countless of his fans. I don’t see the need to compare any great singers, as they were all unique in one way or the other. Please learn to respect, and not critisise views by others.

    I don’t think this is the right place for such a discussion as it is a Kishore “only” forum. Hence, there will be no more posts from me on this subject. If you want, we can take it offline, or to another forum. I only wrote something because you mentioned me in your post. Btw, I have not made any fake comments anywhere (unlike some people), if you think I have, then you can continue to think something that is false.

  129. 129
    arghya Says:

    I could remember once in a rapid fire round in Sony, Mr. Rahat Fateh Ali Khan was asked “Rafi or Kishore”? and he said “Kishore”. Asha Bhosle was recently asked in Star Ananda again a rapid fire round the same question and Ashaji again replied as “Kishore”. I think both of them are also well accompolished in music. Lataji one her 80th birthday recently said Kishore as her best co singer ever. Shankar Mahadevan once said “No. 1 to 10 is Kishore”. Pandit Bhimsen Joshi and Prince Rama Verma- one the god of classical vocalists and the other a master in Carnataci music- still find Kishore as the best singer. The only Oscar winning director from India, Satyajit Ray maintained till his very last days as Kishore to be the best voice in India. Javed Akhtar and Jagjit Singh, everytime they are asked, their reply is Kishore Kumar. And these all are documented and reported facts.

    See, I am not pitching Kishore here or promoting trivias. My point is let us not rahter bring trivia. If we are discussing music, let us all keep it at that. All the legends have/had their choices and they make the choice based on their own taste, preference, likes, dislikes etc. They are all respected figure and let us only understand what the crux of their story is rather then going in a trivia fight, which I simply detest..

    My point is to show that no one is beyond comparison.. We fans always think and have that right to think that our legend is a messiah(and rightly so as he has made his fans’ lives so beautiful with his voice), but to say he is beyond comparison, or he is a sun and rest are candles or putting some trivias try to yell in front of the world about his supremacy sound very non-musical.

    Thanks friends and wish good health to all.

  130. 130
    J.K. Bhagchandani Says:

    Thanks MYK for the fitting rejoinder to Kishorefan. I would like to add couple of more songs: ‘Akhiyan sang akhiyaan lagi…’ from the film ‘Bada Aadmi’ and ‘Jhanana jhanan jhanana baaje…..’ from the film ‘Sangeet Samrat Tansen’ .. etc. where Rafi has done brilliantly in fast paced taan.
    But then you are right that this is a ‘Kishore only forum’. Others are treated as ‘uninvited’. If you retalliate for the non-sense that some (only a handful… not all) Kishore fans talk.. you are dubbed as ‘wild goose’ or ‘eternal fool’. If they retalliate on some similar comment by a Rafi fan … they are just ’emotional’. What a coherence!!!!

  131. 131
    arghya Says:

    Bhagchandaniji I think, yes, this is a Kishore forum. And I dont think it is Kishore only.. Otherwise we would not have been discussing so much of Ghantashalaji songs here,,

    I can imagine the response from people like Binu and Haldar in your home ground if someone pastes Ghantashala or Kishore songs there or hails them..

    Be happy Paramjit has never bad mouthed any legend.. Or if you have found bad mouthing any legend( which I severely doubt)- I hope you know what is a legend? or in your textbook Binu Nair and RD Burman are equal legends?- you can settle that personally with him. In my career, I have seen only one place where legends are bad mouthed like murderer, jealous, chameleon, drunkard and drugged(for RDB), politicially corrupts etc.- and that place is http://www.mohdrafi.com.

  132. 132
    arghya Says:

    Also, read the posts of Paramjit and Kishorefan.. Both giving pranams to Vithalji, who is a Rafi fan and maintains Rafi was better than Kishore..

    What treatment you give to people in http://www.mohdrafi.com who says Kishore better than Rafi?

  133. 133
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji,

    Sorry for the delay. I have been busy in some work. I will definitely come back to you on kishore songs by tomorrow, because it requires hearing by concentration without any disturbance. By the way when yesterday I was listening to another great song of kishore gaata rahe mera dil, from film guide. A nice song. Thanks for your compliments on ghantasala – you have correctly analysed the facts as a true music lover.

    Mr. MYK

    This is a pure kishore forum. But I am forced to reply to you since I felt your comments are written without complete knowledge. Pl. do not take offence & Let me just correct you notions. I am open to correction, if I am wrong anywhere, but I believe you will be honest in taking my post. I agree that rafi is surely great. No doubt about it. In fact i too am a rafi fan. We had met earlier too. I will put only one point. If you know that is fine, otherwise you can check with any musician in India that Ghantasala mastered/was trained in much more genres in music than rafi (to say including hindusthani music). So your quote saying that ghantasala did not sing genres equivalent to rafi is illogical and baseless, rather it lacks sense. When ghantasala mastered more genres than rafi, it is clear he sang more genres than rafi. (you might not have heard all the genres of ghantasala ) This anybody will agree. Rafi did not know carnatic music, but ghantasala knew hindusthani music as well. It is hence not fair to make comparison of rafi with a musical wizard like ghantasala. Just check up with SPB or jesudas or illayaraja about ghantasala’s knowledge in music vs. rafi. It will be like a comparison of a cat with tiger. Rafi’s knowledge before ghantasala’s knowledge in music is only 30% in my view. Regarding melody check the first song of ghantasala posted in my previous posts, you will know what melody is. Both had magnificient voices. You may have your own personal views, but what I have stated are the views of established greats including Mohd. rafi. In fact, I wish to tell you that it was rafi who indeed praised many times ghantasala as greater, and ghantasala (with whom my relative had a discussion for 8 hours in 1972) did not mention rafi even once. You say many singers praised rafi, but what about the singer who rafi praised, he did not praise rafi. Rafi had met ghantasala at his house for tips for singing telugu songs, are you aware of this. Ghantasala did not meet rafi at any time, there was no necessity for him also by virtue of his stature. . I am also a rafi fan, In fact I prefer him over kishore, this point I had made many times clear. Just show me a song of rafi of classical nature wherein he renders as effectively as ghantasala does. Rafi had rendered good classical songs but they are limited in range and depth as compared to ghantasala’s range and depth. Ghantasala had rendered the greatest ever classical song siva sankari in only one take. Ghantasala does not shout and even sings without opening the mouth much wider. He does not move even an inch while singing a song, however tough it may be. He had tall the qualities of a perfect gayaka. YOu have not heard padyams of ghantasala, it is a gift. It is a different exalted genre in music. Even trained classical musicians cannot sing padyams effectively. (SPB and jesudas too do not know how a padyam is to be sung effectively – check 100’s of padymas of ghantasala with hardly 15 to 20 padyams of spb in his entire career or others in telugu) ) . In my view, sir, comparison on musical terms cannot be made for ghantasala vs. rafi. Regarding the comments made by the singers you mentioned, they praised rafi only when they were asked about rafi. They did not advertise on their own that rafi was great. If you ask same question about ghantasala with spb or yesudas same reply will come and this has been the case in many interviews with spb and others. I am sure if naushad or the artists which you mentioned would have heard ghantasala, they would surely have changed the tunes vs. rafi. Just put classical songs of ghantasala before established hindusthani musicians and you will see the result vs. rafi. This has been proved in many cases (including in many forums) – when ghantasala was introduced vs. rafi,. You will also find the same effect. Just try it. If you have the courage pl. do it and come back honestly and without prejudice.

    Moreover, whatever one’s preferences may be, we should admire great qualities in any singer. For instance, kishore has a good nada purity, he was not classically trained, but he sounds great as far as musical notes are concerned. I have seen classical musicians like Sri vas ji, Lalit ji, stating that you cannot find any flaw in any of the renditions of kishore. What do you say about it. If you criticise classical musicians also, then no body can say anything. Kishore fans never criticised rafi or his renditions, but only used to state that kishore rendered in this way or that and so it is great. That is fine. Your views are only : rafi was praised by many so he is great. Why dont you point out the faults and defects for e.g in ghantasala songs so that rafi can be proved to be great. Unless you point out what is the fault in a rendition, you cannot conclude rafi is great. In what way (in musical terms) you consider rafi greater than ghantasala is not clearer, because you never mention the points of greatness. Simply saying so and so singer has praised rafi does not prove the facts. (ghantasala is acknowledged as the perfect and complete singer by all musicians and singers including rafi & lata, you can personally check this fact- Just have a chat with lata mangeshkar you will know.) What about established classical musicians view on ghantasala – have you checked. YOu will know if you check. Balamuralikrishna, the greatest in indian classical singing and semmangudi ,another greatest classical musician in India (whom ghantasala challenged) concluded ghantasala as a perfect and complete singer, the calibre of whom cannot be found. I hope you might have heard few songs of ghantasala and drawing conclusions. It will be like somebody commenting on rafi himself by hearing few of rafi songs and saying rafi is not that great, whereas a person who had heard rafi completely knows what the great rafi is. It need not be pointed out. I do not want to prove who is great or compare legends, but I just wanted to put across the facts on ghantasala which balanced music lovers would surely appreciate. Anyhow this comparison between legends really looks absurd, I had put this only to drive away incomplete views.

    Final conclusion will be in popularity rafi as well as kishore too are surely more popular than ghantasala but as a complete musician ghantasala is clearly ahead of rafi & others. There is no doubt about it.

  134. 134
    Vitthal Says:

    Contd… to my previous post Mr. MYK

    I quote the view of S Janaki, the great southern playback singer in this regard i.e. Ghantasala, Mohd. Rafi and Kishore kumar are the everlasting singers in Indian playback singing. Their effect will continue for many more generations to come. This is correct. What do you say.

  135. 135
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji, Paramjeet ji and other kishore fans,

    Please excuse for my previous lengthy post. In fact, i could not tolerate the disturbance/interference by some people on our lively sharing music discussion on legends. The post was aimed at specific individual, you all will appreciate.

  136. 136
    paramjeet Says:

    Vitthal sahab,
    Sir, bilkul chinta mat karein aap.. Aese parni aate rehte hai yahan pe aur hamare Arghyaji ne unke last post pe sahi jawab de diye hai unko.. Agar yeh ‘only kishore’ hota Vitthalji to hum sab log nilke Ghantashalaji ki baat nahi karte..

    Waise ek mitra hone ke naate poochh raha hoon Vitthalji aap se, aap bhi Rafi bhakt hai, doosre gayakon ke gungaan us forum mein karne se kaisa response milta hai????

    Thoda batayein humein bhi…

  137. 137
    arghya Says:

    Vitthalji. Post 135.

    Sir, we have seen enough of them. They are short of controversies in their own ground. The Kishore chapter, Sonu Nigam chapter, RD chapter, Salil chapter, Lata chapter, Asha chapter, Anil Biswas chapter etc. etc. etc. are long closed and their long dragged absolute eulogies of genres, songs or even a line of a song seem nowadays repeatitive.. So, please excuse them.. They are doing their duties perhaps by again calling RDB a drunkard and drug addict(what a shameful act really), let us do ours by sprading awareness of goodand balanced view on music…

  138. 138
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji / paramjeet ji,

    I have heard the kishore songs. He is a nice singer. I accept that Surely, my knowedge on kishore ji is limited. The old song perhaps I believe one of his early songs jag mag jag mag is a nice song with good attraction & melody , though some nasal effect is there. Husn bhi hay Udas Udas is another song with nice attraction, shifting of notes is attractive. The song from jhumroo koi hamdam really was another nice song – good clarity. This song itself proves kishore as a special singer. Remaining all songs too were interesting to hear. Kishore, really surprising, without being much classically trained, could render songs with nice attraction – it is really a gift from god itself.

    Arghya ji, in my honest opinion, in 60’s the compositions were such so as to explore rafi ji’s potential – the music directors in that period composed more songs suiting rafi’s range so that rafi’s attraction of 60’s is stated beyond comparison. Similarly, sure from 70’s the compositions were mostly suited for kishore kumar’s style and kishore talent was fully utilised by the music directors. I am aware kishore had enveloped rafi in popularity in 70’s and i was given to understand that it was more even than that enjoyed by rafi in 60’s whose contribution of 60’s is truly beyond comparison. It is for sure that kishore and rafi both were great singers in their own ways and hindi cinema is really fortunate for having had 2 great singers, whose contribution perhaps cannot be matched in future.

    Kishore fan ji/Paramjeet ji,

    My respects for both of you. Thanks for your compliments on my views as well as of ghantasala. Many rafi fans have acknowledged ghantasala to be greater than rafi in rafi forum itself (with the exception of very few of rafi fans – you can know who are they and in my view they had done that only out of jealousy with a thought that no singer, even though great and qualified,should overtake rafi, and hence by hook and crook, they managed to hold on to rafi) and those rafi fans themselves (who supported ghantasala) had to bear the brunt there and were accused as false rafi fans (see true voice col.) I was also one among them.

    As compared to rafi fans in general, as a rafi fan myself, I have to admit that this kishore foum is more dignified than rafi forum not because I have been supported, but for the Kishore fans respect for all true legends of music. This is indeed great. Keep it up my friends.

    Thanks and regards to all. May god bless all.

  139. 139
    myk Says:

    Vitthal-ji,

    Thanks, If you feel my posts are written without knowledge, I feel the same about you too. I don’t need to prove my strong musical knowledge to anyone, I have written many a times on another forum about various subjects. I did not want to respond again here, however I will just write to you. I have written on this subject many a times, and do not want to repeat anything again (as this is not the place). Most of your views are subjective, not logical (and baseless as you used the term), and do not prove anything. Therefore, its pointless to respond to them and go through the same thing over and over again.

    Just one point, I am not sure how Ghantasala mastered as many genres as Rafi did ?. Ghantasala’s domain was classical music, it is amusing to think he was also a master at rock n roll, pop, jazz, ghazals, qawwali, comedy etc. and in areas where he was not as accomplished. He was excellent in the classical field which was his domain as well as in bhajans, sentimental/romantic songs. Rafi mastered a variety of genres from western to traditional and everything in between. I have heard a lot of Ghantasala, and I would never rate him as good as Rafi. I also disagree that Rafi’s knowledge of music is 30% of Ghantasala, in fact Rafi was one of the most musically knowledgeable people in the industry. SPB has maintained all along that Rafi is the greatest. I have had discussions with him personally and his view is that Rafi is the ultimate. In his spare time, him and his wife listen to Rafi songs. Ilayaraaja is another who rates Rafi as the greatest, and so do many other southern personalities (leave aside northern and global personalities).

    Rafi’s greatness or any other singer’s greatness does not need any proof. What is insteresting is that Rafi is the benchmark to which all singers are compared (including recently Ghantasala), that should say enough about Rafi’s greatness (besides many other facts). Whatever Lalit and Srivas (or anyone) may say about Kishore are their own views and they can stick to them.

    You can also stick to your views and I will stick to mine (even though you are a Rafi fan, however I suspect you’re more a fan of Ghantasala). Why not spend time writing about the strong points of Kishore on this forum, rather than discussing something which is of no use.

  140. 140
    arghya Says:

    Myk brother.

    I respect your views and appreciate them also. Although, your last post was not for me , still, if you dont mind I would just like to put a point there. It is not a contradictory view but just an observation.
    //What is insteresting is that Rafi is the benchmark to which all singers are compared (including recently Ghantasala)//
    I think, Myk, it is more because Rafi fans project him to be the best in each and every segment. Overall as a best and in each and every genre the best are two different things and problems rise in the second statement only. Remember, by the second statement, you are challenging some of the best of the best of the bests in each segment. Take semi classical, if you say Rafi sahab was the best, even amongst film enthusiasts, you are challenging Ghantashala or Manna fans also, and at the end of the day rather than technical discussion, people grab on trivias and anecdotes to prove a point which gradually shifts to bad mouthing also..

    Similar for ghazals, comedy songs, romantic songs, sad songs etc. etc. If you claim in every segment he was the best, then there are going to be contradictory views, my friend,,,

    These are my views though.. I remember Surajit Bose and Satyansh also shared the same viewpoint some time back. I hope you are not hurt, just take as a viewpoint. Thanks.

  141. 141
    kishorefan Says:

    Arghya ji, Vitthal ji, Paramjeet ji

    You are too generous, honest and balanced in your views. My full appreciations to all of you sir’s. Vitthal sahab, thanks for your compliments on kishore da ka songs. You have correctly stated kishore enveloped rafi in 70’s bahut correct baat hai. This truth cannot be digested by rafi fans, that is why they come out with diluted facts on rafi, who is another mahagayaka, as paramjeet ji and Vitthal ji have said.

    MYK Ji,

    So you have responded after a long time. Thanks, my post had an effect on you. I never mean to hurt you or have any intention to comment against you, but I wanted to say only facts which are balanced. You may accept it or not, it is upto you. Mr. Vitthal is correct, whenever ghantasala was introduced in rafi and now kishore forums, he was hailed as greater (surprisingly by people who are not ghantasala fans – because they are open music lovers ) , but I feel you are not able to digest this fact and whenever ghantasala is appreciated you make your entry to say rafi is the benchmark and was greater. This itself shows your insecured feeling towards rafi as a great singer (so are some other rafi fans), who as I consider, in fact was a great singer. Similarly, whenever kishore fans stated real facts on kishore, again the same story, rafi sang for kishore – that this etc. without in fact pointing out any musical defects, you create some other stories. I do not know if you introduce rafi in ghantasala or jesudas and sounderrajan forum, whether rafi would be appreciated in similar fashion. It is a wonder that, as arghya ji states, ghantasala has been marvellously appreciated by both rafi as well as kishore fans. What does this prove.

    Though the following questions are irrelevant, since you have raised points on ghantasala addressed to me, with my limited knowledge on ghantasala as kishore fan and purely based on your 2 posts & other posts here, I have got the following doubts, could you please clarify.

    1. Pandit gyanprakash says rafi is greater. Did pandit ji hear ghantasala, and what would be his take if he hears him. Only hearing rafi and concluding will be an incomplete conclusion. The other hindi singers, did they hear ghantasala before coming to a conclusion on rafi. Regarding spb, illayaraja and jesudas, I have seen their comments as well, they too have rated ghantasala beyond comparison like rafi. In fact spb states, I have seen it, na bhuto na bhavishyati for ghantasala (past as well as future there will not be singer like ghantasala) what does this prove.

    2. I have seen in post of one Mr. Raghavan saying that ghantasala was master in qawalis as well as western music too (even ghantasala website says so) so in my view, if the said points are correct, what is your view. You yourself say, you are not sure how many genres ghantasala mastered- then how can you say rafi sang more genres than ghantasala.

    3. You yourself agree ghantasala is stronger in classical – there itself the issue stands closed – Classical music is the original mother of playback singing. As per Mr. Vitthal, greatest classical exponents of classical music have praised ghantasala as the greatest.

    4. As vitthal ji asked why do not you point out the features musically in which you consider rafi’s renditions as greater to ghantasala (or even kishore).

    5. Many singers have praised rafi. This you quote to prove him as greater. Similar is the case for ghantasala and kishore too. (see posts by arghya ji and vitthal ji) Moreso both ghantasala and kishore have been praised by rafi and lata as well. What do you say on this.

    6. In your previous post you say that ghantasala was only stronger in classical (128 post), in your next post (139) you have added bhajans, romantic and sentimental songs for ghantasala, what is this. You change facts in each posts ? Perhaps you would add more in your next post.

    7. Lastly, one OF the interesting points of Mr. Vitthal ji, that rafi met ghantasala and indeed praised ghantasala many times, but ghantasala never met rafi. What does this prove. Logically also, Vitthal ji appears correct. My questions have nothing to do with knowledge on ghantasala, but are based purely on the posts of Mr. Vitthal, Arghya ji, and yours.

    Mr. Vitthal ji and Arghya ji also state that comparisons between legends is really absurd. Further, as vitthal ji states, fans of other legends (ghantasala and kishore) are more dignified than fans of rafi, as they never interfere. The only interference comes when, as arghya ji states, that rafi is the best in every genre and that this etc., which is purely false. In fact, as
    arghya ji, stated, Even Mr. Satyansh and Mr. Surajit bose, Mr. Lalit, Mr. Srivas, Mr. Khan in rafi forum etc. have rated ghantasala as clearly greater than rafi. This MYK ji is clearly aware.

    I AM IN FULL AGREEMENT WITH MY FRIEND ARGHYA JI, ON HIS FOLLOWING OBSERVATIONS TO MYK AND ARGHYA JI IS 100% CORRECT.

    (Post 140 of
    Arghya ji)

    //What is insteresting is that Rafi is the benchmark to which all singers are compared (including recently Ghantasala)//
    I think, Myk, it is more because Rafi fans project him to be the best in each and every segment. Overall as a best and in each and every genre the best are two different things and problems rise in the second statement only. Remember, by the second statement, you are challenging some of the best of the best of the bests in each segment. Take semi classical, if you say Rafi sahab was the best, even amongst film enthusiasts, you are challenging Ghantashala or Manna fans also, and at the end of the day rather than technical discussion, people grab on trivias and anecdotes to prove a point which gradually shifts to bad mouthing also..

    Similar for ghazals, comedy songs, romantic songs, sad songs etc. etc. If you claim in every segment he was the best, then there are going to be contradictory views, my friend,,,

  142. 142
    paramjeet Says:

    post no 140
    A killer of a statement.
    I support each and every bit of it. Main poori tarah se samarthan karta hoon is baat ki, Kishorefan ji ki tarah.

  143. 143
    kishorefan Says:

    Mr MYK – Please respond to this post of a rafi foundation member from Hyderabad. This was posted in Mesmerising magic of rafi article in rafi forum. (Your question on how many genres did ghantasala had mastered – a fitting reply from a real rafi fan )

    A S MURTY Says:

    April 27th, 2009 at 10:19 pm

    thanks to Narayananji and Shikha Biswas for the excellent article. A lot of what is said in the article is not known to many and therefore I refrain from putting any kind of comments on a subject on which I have no knowledge. I have seen shrikant narayan’s live programmes and know that he is one singer who puts in a lot of passion in rendering the songs of rafi sahab and doing an excellent job. a great scholar in music who has known anil biswas and one who has researched very deeply into the music styles of both hindustani and carnatic (from the south) is dr m chittaranjan. himself an accomplished musician who composes music, dr chittaranjan is an authority and a household name for most music lovers in andhra pradesh. on several occasions when we met him to enquire how he rates the play back singers of both hindi film world and the southern languages, he emphatically states that rafi sahab is way above all the established names and that ghantasala comes a very close second and that these two singers between themselves have practically explored all the possible naunces of music that can evolve. every music director has his/her own style of composing the songs and choses the right playback singer based on various factors and may not chose a particular playback singer for reasons other than being the best in the industry. shikhaji has put paid to rest any controversy that may be in the minds of music lovers as far as anil biswas and rafi sahab’s relationship is concerned and let us not focus our attention on these matters.

  144. 144
    arghya Says:

    **** RABINDRA SANGEETS OF KISHORE KUMAR****

    As promised by me earlier, I am giving you the download links of Tagore Songs rendered by Kishore Kumar. He released two albums- one in 1980 and the other in 1986, both under music arrangement of Hemanta Mukopadhyay(Hemant Kumar). Here are the songs from 1980 album:

    1. http://www.mediafire.com/file/my2kod0dwtt/AAJ

    Aaj khela bhangar khela.

    2. http://www.mediafire.com/file/mzlnlm2k1yi/AMAR

    Amar raat pohalo.

    3. http://www.mediafire.com/file/y4aydimremm/AMI

    Aami chini go chini- Not the Charulata film version recorded with Ray but a different one with different music arrangement.

    4. http://www.mediafire.com/file/j3mfz2lhm3g/AMI

    Aami tomay joto.

    5. http://www.mediafire.com/file/zwkmm4gtdcj/EKTUKU

    Ektuku chhoan laage.

    6. http://www.mediafire.com/file/twyoq5motih/JADI

    Jodi tor daak shune keu.

    7. http://www.mediafire.com/file/kmjgvmj2mgy/MAYABANO

    Mayabono biharini.

    8. http://www.mediafire.com/file/4n3zydzodtl/SAGHONO

    Saghana gahana raatri. The best amongst all! Just see Kishore’s hold on the lowest octave in the mukhda- ranging four complete notes, then he traverses medium octave in the first and the start of second mukhda and then just like a lightening switches to third octave and covers three complete notes towards the end.. This song is very tough to execute and not too many people ventured in this song before and after Kishore.. I think Hemant only insisted Kishore to try out this owing to his stupendous control on the lowest octave.

    9. http://www.mediafire.com/file/myjjeirye1z/EI

    Ei kathati mone rekho.

    10. http://www.mediafire.com/file/znzoj5d3own/E

    E din aaji kon ghare go.

    Songs from 1986 album:

    1. http://www.mediafire.com/file/nwm3rwzn5zg/AKASH_BHARA_SURYA_TARA.MP3

    2. http://www.mediafire.com/file/rtdqukjzuwz/ALOKER
    Aloker ei jharnadharaye

    3. http://www.mediafire.com/file/ixyn0jyr1nc/AMAR_ANDHAPRADIP.MP3

    4. http://www.mediafire.com/file/bztmzy2wunz/AMAR_BELA_JEY_JAI.MP3

    5. http://www.mediafire.com/file/o2mwdmzjtj3/CHOKER_ALOY_DEKHEYCHILEM.MP3

    6. http://www.mediafire.com/file/mznw5gjhjyz/DIN

    Din jodi holo

    7. http://www.mediafire.com/file/tnzdnyvotkd/DINER_SESHEY.MP3

    Diner sheshe ghumer deshe

    8. http://www.mediafire.com/file/mqm2dzmmuz2/DINGULI_MOR_SONAR_KANCHAY.MP3

    9. http://www.mediafire.com/file/jfyjzozwniy/PATHER_SESH_KOTHAI.MP3

    10. http://www.mediafire.com/file/ywnwl23gjmg/PURANO_SEI_DINER_KATHA.MP3

    Now, friends, I would love to listen to the feedback of knowledgable and sincere music fans here.. Language should not be a barrier to understand the melody and singing of these songs.

    Thanks.

  145. 145
    kishorefan Says:

    Mr. MYK

    I think you are not great than Mr. Chittaranjan whom Sri A S R Murthy mentioned in his post. Pl. try to update true facts.

  146. 146
    J.K. Bhagchandani Says:

    I totally agree with Kishorefan that “Classical music is the original mother of playback singing.” (post 141, point no.3). That should settle at least the Rafi vs. Kishore debate. Comparisons between other greats can be debated separately.

  147. 147
    paramjeet Says:

    saghana gahna raatri- haan ji sir, mere hisaab se ek aesa accomplishment hai jo ek gayak apni saari zindagi sirf chah kar sakta hai..

    Kishorefan bhai.. Bhaiya, chhodo yeh sab baaton ko.. Aap ke hisaab se Kishoreji ka sab se difficult yoodelling kaunsa hai?? Main ek bahut kathin sawal poochh raha hoon isi liye ke main dekhna chahta hoon aapka aur mera choice milta hai ya nahi..

    Aur, aapke hisaab se Rafisaab ka sabse behetareen semi classical kaun sa tha? Mere khayal se ‘Madhuban mein radhika’ aur ‘Baat chalat nayi chunri’ hai.. Aap ka kya khayal hai?

  148. 148
    kishorefan Says:

    Mr. Arghya ji,

    Thanks for your uploading of songs of kishore ji in rabindra sangeet. The songs mayabona biharini, jadi tero dak suhe keu na ashe tabe ekla chalo re, saguna gahana ratri, were nice to hear and great from the 1980 albums. Due to my limited knowledge of music, I was not able to appreciate musically, much of other songs but it was a different feeling of listening to kishore. Perhaps the language bar might be there, but I could catch the sincerity with which kishore sings. Saguna gahana ratri, was rated as one of great songs by Sri Vas ji here, I remember. Thanks for the links. 1986 albums, I am yet to hear as they are not currently opening in my system (I tried just now) I will get back after I hear them.

    Arghya ji/paramjeet ji,

    My posts 141 & 143, 145 addressed to Mr. MYK – have you seen no response received yet, since genuine facts are placed and it will be a big surprise, if we receive correct reply for each of the points raised therein. (I very much doubt, whether correct reply or again diluted facts and stories will come up)

    Even post 133 by vitthal ji, is not correctly responded to by Mr. MYK, he has escaped all the major facts quoted by Mr. Vitthal. It is a sheer escapism and this itself shows that MYK or other rafi fan has no answer to vitthal ji’s points. What does that prove – it is quite clear and need not be repeated again that rafi’s talent is limited. That should put an end to biased rafi fans.

    Keep it up Vitthal ji for successfully tackling biased rafi fans- kudos.

  149. 149
    paramjeet Says:

    ek dum galat! Bahut hi galat.. Kishorefan, Vitthal sahab aur arghya bhai..

    main bhi vanaras hindu university se sangeet mein diploma haseel kiya hoon.. Maine abhi apna poora hruday aur kaan laga ke Siva Sankari aur Nache man more dono geeton ko suna hai.. Bhaiyon, agar koi kehta nache man mora ko siva sankari ke saath mein compare karta hai to us aadmi ko sangeet ka koi jaankaari nahi hai..

    Nache man mora shuru hota hai akaratmak aalaap se.. Beeche mein teen antara hai jisme rafi sahab achhi harqatein lete hai aur jisko taan bolte hai woh shuru hota hai 5:01 se leke 5:13 seconds tak aur fir 5:29 se leke 5: 40 seconds tak.. Kul milaake hardly 20 seconds ka taan- woh bhi aakaratmak..

    Yeh gaane ko Siva Sankari ke saath tulna karna shastriya sangeet ka apmaan hai.. Siva Sankari mein teen tarah ke taan liye gaye hai- bol taan, sargam taan aur aakaratmak taan.. Yeh teen tarah ke taan mein sabse kathin hota hai sargam taan, jo Siva Sankari mein udara se leke tara tak Ghantashalaji ne liya hai.. Tempo bhi sargam mein Nache man mora ke akaratmak taan se 2 ya 3 times fast hai.. Aalaap Siva Sankari mein 3 ya 4 baar liya jaata hai alag alag range mein.. Jo variation Siva Sankari mein hai uska 20% bhi Nache man mora mein nahi hai.. Utar, chadhao, landing of notes, sustainance of breath, complexity of taans kisime bhi Nache man mora Siva Sankari ke aas paas bhi nahi aata hai..

    Agar koi bolta hai ke Nache man mora ka taan Siva Sankari ke barabar ka hai to main bhi Lalit Ganpathy ji ki tarah bolunga ‘ they think they know music’ magaar sangeet unko aata nahi hai..

    waise dekha jaye to Nache man mora ki tulna payalwali dekhna ke saath kiya jaye to theek hai. Aalaap ke badle bol taan hai, aakhir ka aakaratmak taan nahi hai magar antara Payalwali dekhna ka zyada high hai aur harqat Nache man mora ke antara se zyada hai..

    Siva sankari is class apart..

  150. 150
    A S MURTY Says:

    Friends, ref posts 143, 145 and 146 and most other posts in general. I am here today after a long gap and decided to chip in only because the debate here is healthy and there is little mud-slinging on one another. That is a plus point to the on going discussion. Are we discussing who is the best playback singer ? If so, one cannot compare Rafi Sahab and Ghantasala. They are from as different fields as say shastriya sangeet and the carnatic music of the south. great exponents of shastriya gayan just cannot render a carnatic composition nor is the case true of vice versa. you also cannot compare the western style of music – classical or jazz with indian style of music. hence it is an exercise in futility when we venture to compare. the telegu film industry took a completely different style of compositions – to blend with its social and tradtional structures – that rafi sahab would never have been able to fit in. he did get to sing as many as fourteen telugu film songs but the writing on the wall is clear – ghantasala rules the field here. so also is the case with ghantasala, the greatest ever exponent of playback singing in telugu music industry who would not have fitted in the hindi film music. “siva sankari” is a total carnatic composition which just happened to find a place in a telugu movie too. ‘nache man mora magan dighdha dighi dighi and other classical songs of rafi sahab were only partial ‘shastriya sangeet’ compositions were more filmy in the compsotions and hence to compare such songs is not justified. the styles are so different that any comparison would fall flat. my comments on another forum have been inserted in post 143 and i do not mind that at all. i would only like to add that it should not be taken out of context for we are all music lovers and appreciate the greatness of several playback singers – only our tastes differ and we tend to stick to our liking at whatever cost. shri m chittaranjan says himself that ‘din dhal jaaye haye’ by rafi sahab could not have been rendered by ghantasala in the same fashion only because such expressions could not have been inserted in the movies that were the order of the day in telugu film world at that time or even now. that ‘aura’ has been absent in the south and hence even if ghantasala could render such a beauty of a composition in telugu films, it would not have attained the status of the above song by rafi sahab .

    A S MURTY
    SECRETARY
    RAFI FOUNDATION,
    Hyderabad Chapter

  151. 151
    paramjeet Says:

    Bhagchandaniji, post 146

    Yeh baat hum pehle bhi discuss kar chuke hai is forum mein, shstriya sangeet ka arth sirf alankaar hi nahi hai balki pehle ek galla taiyar karna hai ek tarah ki voice culture jisme ‘nada’ shudh ho, ‘prana’ sahi ho aur sur ka ‘pakad’ mazboot ho. Iske baad alankarik cheezein jaise alaap, taan, murki etc. se sangeet ko sajaya jaata hai.

    Kishore aur Rafi ki tulna agar aap sirf classical mein kare to main aur mujhse kaafi bade diggajon ka bhi yeh maan na hai , definitely Rafi sahab ka alankarik part Kishoreda se behetar tha magar fundamentals of shastriya sangeet, yani ki, ‘manodharma’, ‘nada’, ‘prana’ ityadi sabhi buniyadi hisson mein Kishoreda aage the.

    Aap ko kaisa lagta hai pata nahi, magar yeh baat sahi hai, alankarik gyan na hote hue bhi Kishoreda ki awaz mein kaafi saare raga bahut hi akarshak lagte the jaise ke bhairavi, khambaj, kalavati, yaman aur shivranjani.. In saare raagon mein jo voice texture chahiye hota hai woh aap ko Kishoreda ki awaaz mein milega.

    bhagchandaniji, isi liye shastriya gayakon mein bhi aap dekhiyega ek division hai rafi aur kishore ko leke.. Alankarik hisson pe mahatva denewale log rafi ko prefer karte hai magar awaaz ki shudhta pe mahatva denewale log kishore ko.
    Ghantashalaji ko classical mein khaali isi liye greatest nahi bolte Bhagchandaniji ke woh alankarik shakhaon pe master the, bal ki isi liye bhi ki unki bhi awaaz ki buniyad kaafi had tak kishoreda ke awaaz se milta tha aur awaaz ki gehraai ke saath alankaar milaane se Ghantashalaji ke classical gaano ka akarshan bahut hi manoram hua karta hai.

  152. 152
    myk Says:

    Kishorefan,

    The very fact that you mentioned my name here shows how insecure you are. Don’t try and twist anything around. I’m not going to bother replying to your posts because you are going around the bush again and again. If you can’t understand my posts then I am not going to explain them to you. This topic has been beaten to death, I am surprised you are still undertaking a lost cause. Kudos to you for knocking your head against the wall about something that cannot be changed. It doesn’t matter what other members of this forum have said about Rafi/Ghantasala/KK, they are not an authority on the subject, nor are you and me. I have stated my views so many times based on facts, (not things such as Rafi mentioned Ghantasala but Ghantasala never mentioned Rafi so therefore Ghantasala is greater) which is nonsense, or other immateur arguments. The very fact that I mentioned personalities praising Rafi was one part of it, but definitely there is more to Rafi’s greatness than that. Praise coming from those steeped in music means a lot, than coming from any person (unless they are knowledgeable in music). Rafi’s greatness involves a lot of factors.

    Your points 1-7 don’t prove anything, hence there is no scope for a logical discussion. I find it hailarious that you think Ghantasala is in the same league as Rafi (vis a vis genres or anything else). I am aware of Ghantasala’s repertoire and songs and don’t need you to tell me anything. I don’t think you are aware that much about Rafi and his unmatched greatness (that countless number of people attest to). I don’t find your views balanced at all.

    If you want, we can take this discussion offline (as I have mentioned before), but I guess you know that you will get no where if we do have a discussion offline, since the points you raise have (and will be again) broken a part. This is a beaten to death topic, and this is not the place for such a discussion (I am surprised it was even discussed on the Rafi forum when Ghantasala fans barged in there) with fans like you who repeat the same illogical remarks, there can be no room for a great discussion.

    The reason why I do not want to engage in a discussion with you is because it won’t do me any good. I prefer knowledgeable individuals who argue with logic, not with subjectivity. Also, we have been around the same path before, so why take it up again ?. That is the only reason, nothing more, nothing less. It is very clear, who’s posts are full of it, and who’s are not.

    I will consider the rests of your posts as ‘yawn’ material (putting me to sleep). As I said, I would not like to respond further, I only did because you mentioned me. Please do not mention my name any further, unless you have something constructive to say. I have not taken your name other than in discussions with you, therefore I expect you to do the same.

    I consider Ghantasala a great singer, but definitely not better than Rafi. Kishore also appeals to me more than Ghantasala. These are my views and I stick to them. If you have different views, and don’t agree with what I write (just as I don’t agree with what you write), then we agree to disagree. I don’t have anything against you personally, but it is you who brought up my name here.

    To each his own.

    ————–

    Arghya brother,

    I have seen many fan groups (and fans in general) compare their favourites to Rafi. If you go to Tamil/Telegu/Malayalam fan sites of SPB/Ghantasala/Yesudas, you will see Rafi come up there. The same is for other singers such as Mukesh/Talat/Kishore etc.

    As you know, Ghantasala fans came to the Rafi site and wrote about him when it was uncalled for. Now it seems they have found a nesting place here.

    I think Rafi fans don’t have anything to prove, yet are involved in discussions with others because they are forced to reply unnecessary comments. On the other hand there are extreme-minded Rafi fans too (but that is the same with every singer group).

  153. 153
    kishorefan Says:

    Paramjeet bhai, – post 149

    I have no words to praise you. You are 100% correct. SIVA SANKARI OF GHANTASALA IS THE GREATEST EVER CLASSICAL SONG IN INDIAN PLAYBACK SINGING. THE RANGE, 3 OCTAVES, MIND BLOWING TAANS, SPEED, HIGHEST PITCH, TOUGHEST MUSICAL NOTES, EVERYTHING BEYOND COMPARISON IS PRESENT IN THAT. RAFI FANS NEVER DISCUSS ABOUT THIS SONG BECAUSE THEY KNOW 1000% THAT RAFI HAS NOT EVEN RENDERED EVEN TO THE EXTENT OF 50% OF RANGE OF SUCH CLASSICAL RENDITIONS AND THEY START COMPARING WITH ESTABLISHED LEGENDS.

    This song was much much accalimed by one Mr. Khan, a hindusthani classical musician in post 611 in true voice col. of mohd rafi.com. Binu nair and others were totally taken aback by this praise of Mr. Khan – consequently he was slowly asked to get out of that forum. No doubt, parmajeetji, rafi fans very well know limitations of rafi, but they have no other option, but to simply find some facts to support rafi in one or other way. Even rafi would not agree to that, as Mr. Vitthal ji, stated that rafi had full praise for ghantasala ji many times. Post 133 of Vithal Ji and post 141, 143, 145 of mine – no replies have been received yet from any rafi fans – including MYK – since they have no replies for those questions which are genuine.

    There was another song posted by Mr. Vitthal ji for ghantasala i.e. rasika raja in previous posts which is another classical masterpiece like siva sankari. I feel ghantasala might have rendered many more renditions like this.

    ANYHOW WE KNOW THE TRUTH, LET US KEEP THE TOPIC APART NOW (AS WE KNOW THE TRUTH WHOSE TALENT IS WHAT) AND START DISCUSSING ABOUT KISHORE JI’S SONGS.

    The songs mentioned by your earlier, I have heard paramjeet ji, in fact I was fortunate enough to hear kishore ji’s first song which was somewhat sounding similar to saigal. But kishore song had more attraction than saigal.

    Paramjeet bhai, what is your opinion on the song Mere umar ke now jawano from film karz (om shanti om) the song which became much famous during 80’s. What about the songs from Funtoosh, amar prem, Nau Do Gyarah , Paying Guest , Guide, Jewel Thief , Prem Pujari , and Tere Mere Sapne. These were the films wherein I find kishore ji very attractive.

    YOU KNOW KISHORE KUMAR WAS A PROLIFIC VOCALIST AND SANG IN MANY INDIAN LANGUAGES INCLUDING HINDI, BENGALI, MARATHI, ASSAMESE, GUJARATI, KANNADA, BHOJPURI, MALAYALAM, ORIYA ETC. WITHOUT BEING TECHNICALLY MUCH TALENTED SEE THE POTENTIAL OF KISHORE JI. HE WAS REALLY GREAT.

    COMING TO RAFI’S CLASSICAL SONGS ; Surajit Bose bhai had stated that Madhuban me radhika nache re, in hamir kalyani rag should have been rendered more effectively, if you go by the qualities of that rag. This question, I had indeed also raised with one of ghantasala fans (as he was classically much accomplished singer) and I had received a response that there is one famous telugu song known as Nee Madhu Murali of ghantasala in hamir kalyani raga and to know how effectively the raga is sung, one should listen to the song of ghantasala. I have heard the song paramjeet ji, another classical masterpiece apart. (ghantasala sings with a rocket speed the swaras which appear quite majestic) Here is the link for the song in hamir kalyani raga by ghantasala. what do you say on this ?

    http://www.dishant.com/album/Bhakta-Jayadeva.html

    Anyhow, keeping musical technicalities apart, Naushad composition of Madhuban me radhika nache re, is a class song in its own range and which is appreciated by many. Even I admire the song and which is probably one of my favourite rafi ji’s songs. Rafi is fine in classical songs in his range, (though not near ghantasala) even other songs man mora bawra, I think from hindusthani point of view, rafi is fine in those renditions. But I like madhuban me radhika nache re in rafi’s classical songs.

  154. 154
    kishorefan Says:

    post 146- Bhagchandani ji,

    contd.. to my previous post, sorry sir I missed you there.

    Thanks for your appreciations. You are right and I feel You would really appreciate my views on classical singing as well.

    THE POINT IS KISHORE THOUGH NOT MUCH QUALIFIED TECHNICALLY AS A CLASSICAL MUSICIAN, HE RENDERED MANY GREAT RENDITIONS (KINDLY SEE MY PREVIOUS MESSAGE TO PARAMJEET JI) THAT IS GREATNESS OF KISHORE. RAFI’S RENDITIONS OF CLASSICAL SONGS TOO I HAVE COVERED IN THE POST. RAFI IS ONE OF MY FAVOURITES AS WELL DEAR SIR.

  155. 155
    kishorefan Says:

    paramjeet bhai,

    Another point, Yodelling – a very interesting discussion, There are many long yodellings of kishore ji – even beginning of gaata rahe mera dil, zindagi ek safar hai suhana, & very little effect yodellings like panch rupaya baraah aana in chalti kanam gadi etc. everything is fine. We can say all of kishore yodellings are fine and THINK NO PLAYBACK SINGER CAN SING YODELLINGS AS EFFECTIVELY AS KISHORE.

  156. 156
    kishorefan Says:

    sorry paramjeet ji, in my previous post

    It is not gaata rahe mera dil but Yeh dil na hota bechara from jewel thief by kishore – sorry for the mistake.

  157. 157
    kishorefan Says:

    152- Mr. MYK

    Whoever praises any other singer as greater than rafi – that person becomes ……… according to you, what a interpretation. Is this a balanced view. You have not responded still to any of the queries in earlier posts, because you cannot, that is clear, Pl. do not try to post some stories such as I need not reply to you or something else. (moreover I do not see any ghantasala fans here – many are kishore fans or rafi fans discussion about ghantasala here – another wrong interpretation by you ) I repeat – to each his own (but to know with honesty the truth – that is all) – Good bye and wish you all the best MYK sir.

    Sachin tendulkar is all rounder, if you argue he can bowl better

    than Bret lee, what would one have to say ? no body can say

    anything.

    A S Murthy saab,

    Thanks for your message murthy saab, Your points are well taken and are quite constructive. Each legend is greater in his own way. But this kind of discussion with Mr. MYK had to take place, because Arghya ji as he stated, rafi fans consider him to be best in each and every genre – is this a correct discussion.

    I repeat.

    Sachin tendulkar is all rounder, if you say he can bowl better than Bret lee, what would one have to say ? no body can say anything.

  158. 158
    arghya Says:

    Paramjeet 149 and 151.
    I see ur post 151 was posted at 1:20 am midnight!!! Hats off to you brother for being so passionate about this topic.

    yes, I was also a bit surprised when Myk mentioned Nache man mora to compare with Siva Sankari in the taan aspect.. I dont think apart from “Ketaki gulaab juhi” any other classical Hindi film song can compete that much with the sophistication and complexity of Rasika Raja and Siva Sankari. Your observations are much appreciated here. That shows you as a music knowledgable which you did not reveal before. Good spirit, I must say.

    Your post 151 is also a very valid answer. Surajit da had also said this that classical singing is first creating a voice base and then ornamentation. I think Rafi and Kishore had a distinct edge over each other in these two parts.. Good point raised. Also, you are right, that since the first part was taken care of well by Kishore, many ragas sounded sweet and controlled in his voice even without ornamentation. Very nice views by you, indeed.

    Keep it up..

    My heartiest thansk to you and Kishorefan..

  159. 159
    Vitthal Says:

    Sorry MYK ji to differ you on two major points.

    1. In your post 1018 in rafi vs kishore discussion in the other forum you say kishore is not even similar to ghantasala, comparing both is funny, but here you say kishore is more appealing – contradictory statement pl. I think kishore fan is correct, that you change facts at convenient intervals.

    2. Rafi is never mentioned in ghantasala site (he may have been mentioned in spb or jesudas site) There is no necessity for rafi to find a place there, because ghantasala fans know what ghantasala is & what rafi is. This is what rafi is thought about in ghantasala website : (see entire article)

    http://www.ghantasala.info/theman/scit-post.html

  160. 160
    arghya Says:

    Murthy sir,

    Thanks for your post here. I dont think anyone is arguing here for who is the best amongst them or at least I am not.. My only intention is to explore different qualities in Kishore, primarily, which gets shadowed sometimes.. Ghantashalaji is also not very known to me, so, I took Vitthalji as a mean to know that singer more and I have been impressed to the maximum extent in his classical renditions.. A soothing effect much comparable to Kishore’s philosophical songs or Rafi’s devotional songs a listener gets. Regarding arguements, I think constructive criticism is not bad as long as the topic does not get diluted and dignity is maintained in the forum.

  161. 161
    vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji, paramjeet ji, kishore fan ji and others,

    Pl. leave the off the track discussions now as they lead to nowhere. In fact our line of musical discussions have lost track by entering into arguments with …….. rafi fans. Indeed surprising, they have succeeded again in creating a bottleneck hear, when lively discussions were going on. By the way, I will come back to you on other kishore songs.

    Paramjeet sir,

    I never knew you had so much knowledge in music. Really, you are also in the line of Mr. Surajit bose, Srivas ji, Lalit Ji and others here. We have another musician here. When musicians praise kishore or others, I am surprised why people with limited music knowledge start interfering.

    A S Murthy sir,

    Thanks for your post, which was interesting.

  162. 162
    arghya Says:

    Vitthalji post 159.

    There is no surprise to the fact that Rafi sahab is mentioned in Yesuji or SPB’s sites..They are the two living legends in south indian singing and they consider Rafi sahab as their idol..

    It is something like if Kumar Sanu becomes a legend, say after 20 years,
    (which I sincerely doubt, but you never know after his Padmashree..lol..ignore the pun), in his sites Kishore would be mentioned and compared by his fans. Same for Shankar Mahadevan or Adnan Sami( a voice which I think in recent times came closest to that punch and aesthetics of Kishore Kumar voice,almost made people nostalgic of Kishore again, only Sami was a bad bad playback).. In the sites of many singers of present day, Kishore is mentioned and compared. Of course, SPB and Yesu are much much more accomplished singers than them, but I am talking of the tendency part of it. Kishore is also compared many a times with Saigal, although out of 40 years of his career, he sounded like Saigal for only 2 years!!

    Thanks Myk for your response.. As I had said these are my views or rather observations. Nothing much to take home in this.

    Sincere thanks to all the people who are discussing in a good spirit and coming out with valid and good technical points. Sincere thanks to Paramjeet for making difficult things understand in plain and lucid language. Only if you can type in English, dear friend, it would have been easier..lolz.

  163. 163
    paramjeet Says:

    Kishorefan bhai..
    Yoodelling mein mujhe lagta hai ‘piya piya piya’ gaane mein interlude mein kishoreda jo yoodelling lete hai woh kamaal ka hai.. Aur jhumroo ka title song, woh bhi kaafi zabardast yoodelling hai.. Baaki bhi bahut saare hai ‘yeh shaam mastani’, ‘tum bin jaaon kaha’, chala jata hoo kisi ki dhun mein’, ‘yeh dil na hota’, ‘thandi hawa yeh chandni suhani’ sabhi bahut hi sophisticated yoodelling hai.

    Mujhe Rafi sahab ke classical gaane manna ji ke baad second favourite lagta hai.. Rafi sahab achhe the classical mein koi shaq nahi.. Alankaar unke kaafi achhe the.

    Waise maine abhi ‘ akash bhara surya tara’ suna 1986 ke ravindrasangeet album se.. Sun lena kishorefan bhai, bahut hi akarshak gaana hai.. Kaun sa raga hai samajh nahi pa raha hoon, language problem bhi hai.. Sunke batana thoda..

  164. 164
    vitthal Says:

    150- A S Murthy garu,

    You are perfectly correct in your post. The only point of conflict is the biased point of some biased rafians – that rafi is best/greatest in every genre. Then the point comes for argument who is the greatest in different genres. You agree with the truth. Surprising thing is that without rendering difficult genres also some are saying so and so is greatest and claim that if he has not rendered, he has not got the opportunity to do so.

    Kishore fan ji – 100% correct – Sachin tendulkar though considered an all rounder, cannot bowl even to the extent of 50% of Bret lee, the greatest bowler in the world today. As an all rounder, Claiming tendulkar as best in each form of cricket will be a senseless argument. Hope your message is correctly taken by people.

    Arghya ji,

    I agree with your views. Many forums kishore kumar is also mentioned. I had already stated earlier, rafi and kishore are more popular than others, perhaps by virtue of their association with the national stage of bollywood.

  165. 165
    myk Says:

    Kishorefan,

    It seems you have a problem with Rafi fans in general. I suggest you take those issues up elsewhere instead of knocking your head against the wall. I don’t think knowledgeable Rafi fans claim he is the best in every genre (as many fans of other singers do). I think those who do so are extreme fans (which exist in every group). However, Rafi was a master of “many” genres, and was a true ‘all-rounder’. I am not repying to your posts which are figments of your imagination because I already have in the past, and its a waste of time to do so again (not because I can’t, and I’ve already made that clear). Anyways, my interaction with you is over, have a nice life.

    Arghya, I mentioned the MSTA Rafi song not in response to the ‘Siva Sankari’ by Ghantasala, but just an example of Rafi executing taans in a great way. Thanks for your comments brother.

  166. 166
    kishorefan Says:

    Arghya ji & paramjeet ji,

    Have you heard the hamir kalyani raga song by ghantasala ji in my post 153 ? I await your views on that song.

    Paramjeet ji,

    Puri tara se sehmat hai aapke sat yodelling – kishore is kishore, no further issue on that. Manna dey was a singer in his own range. Rafi too was good in classical renditions but was limited in his own range. Whereas ghantasala ji is ahead of all in classical renditions.

    Akash Bhara surya tara is a simple but appealing song of kishore. At 1:48 he sings kaaa… 4 notes are appealing. A quiet comfortable rendering of kishore da. Raag to apko hi batana padega bhai, hum aapke jitna musical expert nahi hai. Surajit bhai or lalit ji ko pucho na.

    Paramjeet ji, apne mere prashna ka jawab nahi diya – kishore ke kuch film ke gane maine pichle post me likha tha.

  167. 167
    myk Says:

    Vitthal,

    How are my statements contradictory ?. Yes, Kishore and Ghantasala can’t be compared, each had their own strengths, yet I prefer Kishore over Ghantasala. It’s like saying a Mercedes cannot be compared to a Honda Civic in class, yet if one prefers a Civic, how are they contradicting anything ?. It’s all about personal likes, tastes etc. I think the only thing contradictory is your (and your friends) false alleagations at posts which do not agree with your views. I think it is you and others who conveniently change your statements when it suits you. This is the reason why I don’t like discussing music with individuals who can’t understand clear statements right away and waste time by nit-picking at things (besides various other reasons).

    Anyways, as I have maintained, to each his own. If you have a problem, take it up elsewhere.

  168. 168
    myk Says:

    Another final comment by me on the subject (someone should note down the amount of senseless comments by others here):

    In this particular case, by all-rounder, I meant a singer who was a “master” at various genres, not just anyone who could do anything in that segment. Quoting Sachin Tendulkar and Brett Lee in the same sentence shows the inadequate knowledge level of some folks here. Tendulkar is not a master bowler, nor fielder, only a master batsman, hence the example is bogus. Rafi although a film singer, mastered many genres, hence the term ‘all-rounder’ for him (in this case).

  169. 169
    paramjeet Says:

    kishorefan,
    aapne jo films ka naam mention kiya hai woh saare dev anand ke hai. Is baare mein bataunga, dev anand ka screen image building ke peechhe sabse bada yogdaan kishoreda ka tha.

    Dev anand ka romantic avtaar pehli baar silver screen mein establish hua Munim ji ka behetareen geet ‘Jeevan ke safar mein rahi’ se.. Fir Paying Guest ka ‘ chhod do aanchal’ us zamane mein yuva premiyon ke liye ek anthem sa ban gaya.. Nau Do Gyarah ka ‘Hum hai rahi pyar ke’ aaj bhi Dev sahab ke signature gaano mein se hai.. Aur Funtoosh ka woh great song ‘Dukhi man mere’ ko kaun bhool sakta hai..

    Sixties mein Dev sahab ke filmon mein zyadatar kishoreda ka role duet geeton pe raha.. Gata rahe mera dil, Aasmaan ke neeche, Dooriyan nazdikiyan ban gayi, Yeh duniyawale poochhenge, Likha hai teri aankhon mein etc. Solos mein magar ‘yeh dil na hota bechara’ aur ‘ khwab ho tum ya koi haqeeqat’ kaun bhula sakta hai..

    Seventies mein Dev ke liye kishore hi kishore the.. Balki sirf teen(3) gaane chhodke poore dashak mein Dev sahab ke saare gaane Kishoreda ne gaaye.. Dil aaj shayar hai, phoolon ke rang se, phoolon ka taaron ka , dekho o deewano,Main aaya hoon leke saaz, jaaneman jaaneman, palbhar ke liye koi humein, panna ki tamanna hai, rahi tha main awara, gori gori gaaon ki gori re, nazrana bheja kisine pyar ka jaise gaane dev sahab ka evergreen image ko barkaraar rakha..

    eighties mein bhi Kishoreda ne dev sahab ke liye gaye.. Magar Manpasand aur Swami Dada ke chand kuchh gaane chhodke baaki gaane kuchh khaas nahi the..

    Ek bahut hi lamba aur shaandaar combo raha hai kishoreda aur dev sahab ka.

  170. 170
    arghya Says:

    Paramjeet,

    It is not even 3- it is 2 in seventies! One each from Rafi in Gambler(1971) and Jaaneman(1975)- thatz all.. The only other song where Kishore did not playback was again a Rafi one in Manpasand(1981)- the song was “Logon ka dil”.. But that was eighties and not seventies..

    The list of films in which and number of songs which Kishore sang for Dev Anand are:

    Ziddi(1948)- 2 songs
    Baazi(1951)- 1 song
    Jaal(1952)- 1 song
    Humsafar(1953)- 2 songs
    Taxi Driver(1954)- 1 song
    Munim Ji(1955)- 2 songs
    House No. 44(1955)- 1 song.
    Funtoosh(1956)- 5 songs
    Nau do Gyarah(1957)- 2 songs
    Paying Guest(1957)- 4 songs
    Teen Deviyan(1965)- 4 songs
    Guide(1965)- 1 song
    Jewel Thief(1967)- 2 songs
    Duniya(1968)- 1 song
    Mahal(1969)- 3 songs
    Prem Pujari(1970)- 3 songs
    Johny Mera Naam(1970)- 3 songs
    Gambler(1971)- 4 songs
    Tere Mere Sapne(1971)- 2 songs
    Hare Rama Hare Krishna(1971)- 3 songs
    Banarasi Babu(1972)- 3 songs
    Yeh Gulistaan Humara(1972)- 2 songs
    Heera Panna(1973)- 4 songs
    Joshila(1973)- 3 songs
    Chhupa Rustam(1973)- 4 songs
    Aamir Garib(1974)- 5 songs
    Ishq Ishq Ishq(1974)- 5 songs
    Prem Shahstra(1974)- 3 songs
    Jaaneman(1975)- 2 songs
    Warrant(1975)- 3 songs
    Bullet(1976)- 2 songs
    Kala Baaz(1977)- 3 songs
    Sahib Bahadur(1977)- 4 songs
    Des Pardes(1978)-4 songs
    Darling Darling(1978)- 3 songs
    Manpasand(1981)- 3 songs
    Swami Dada(1982)- 3 songs
    Loot Maar(1982)- 2 songs
    Anand aur Anand(1984)- 2 songs
    Hum Naujawan(1985)- 1 song.

    Total 108 songs together in an association spanned for 37 years..

    This is the longest most association in Hindi film industry (in terms of period) between an actor and a singer.

  171. 171
    Vitthal Says:

    167 – MYK Ji,

    Thanks for your post. I respect your views sir. Please do not take things personally, as there is nothing against you. Your views are fully respected and I expect the same from you only because of the reason that I have put across the facts which were stated by established legends and musicians, including playback singers. I am not qualified much to comment on my own. So if you think I am arguing, I feel it is incorrect please. I have always respected your views, but I feel (pl. do not take otherwise) it is the other way from you since I feel you are arguing against facts stated by established legends. (i have respected your views of established legends stated by you, but have you agreed similarly) I again agree with your views fully, if one prefers a civic over mercedes, fine, no issues. Everybody has his own preference. Anyhow, nothing to take personal. It was a nice interaction with you sir, Thanks for the post and please have a nice life sir. All the best MYK JI.

    Kishore fan – 153,

    Nee madhu murali of ghantasala (i am not much aware of the raga – but as you state I take it has hamir kalyani – neither I know the raga of Madhuban me radhika nache re – but I think the notes in both the songs sound similar, so both might be in same raga). It is a Short semi classical rendering but master rendering of ghantasala. Thanks for the link kishore fan ji. It was nice to hear the song.

    The only difference between madhuban me and the telugu song, according to me, is the telugu one is overall much faster
    in taans as well as swaras and is quite comfortably rendered even in speed, (as is always expected from ghantasala with ease) whereas the hindi one is slower in rendition and rendered nicely by rafi ji . Anyhow, both songs are nice to hear. Regarding technical competencies, I cannot comment. I like both the songs. This is one of the rafi ji songs I prefer most in his semi classical renditions.

  172. 172
    arghya Says:

    Contd.. from my previous post..

    Sorry to miss out Shareef Badmash(1973)- 3 songs.

    That takes the tally to 111 songs.

  173. 173
    Kishorefan Says:

    Arghya ji,

    Again war of words is going on in other forum. Now the discussion is on sonu nigam & again as usual kishore vs. rafi & sonu fans are at receiving end. (Mohd. rafi with other male singers and music after rafi articles.) Anyhow regarding sonu, I feel in today’s industry and circumstances he is doing well, though he cannot be compared to the erswhile legends of the golden era of indian playback singing.

    Thanks for your list of kishore songs on devanand.

    Paramjeet ji, – a nice post in kishore songs on devanand.

  174. 174
    Kishorefan Says:

    Arghya ji,

    Again Binu nair ji is shouting at kishore fans for saying kishore as a great singer – same language see the other forum – (Article mohd. rafii with other male singers)

  175. 175
    arghya Says:

    Kishorefan 173.

    The less we talk about that forum is better. As one of my close friend and music analyst puts it as a hooligun adda. Let us not at all concentrate. They pretend to be musical admirers but cannot talk on musical grounds too long..lolz.. So, lets not lose our breath. I rather feel proud for fans like you or paramjeet who can give pranams to Rafi fans even in a Kishore forum.. Even my utter respect to Rafi fans like Vitthalji, Manish etc. I have vocally very loudly expressed many times in this forum also.

    Ignore them.. I have not seen that forum. But I can guess what must be going on.. Someone must have said Kishore is better than Rafi, and in stead of technically replying it they have started foul mouthing that person and Kishore also..

    Just let them bark, I am not at all bothered.

  176. 176
    paramjeet Says:

    kishorefan bhai..
    Un gundo ka naam mat lo yahan par.. Binu nair aur haldaar sangeet ke naam pe jo atankvaad faila rakhe hai us mein nuksaan rafi sahab ka hi hai.,,

    Pichhle 4th August mein mera ek dost jo media mein hai kishoreda ke janamdin pe coverage kar raha tha(us din kaafi saare program aate hai media pe poore din bhar).. usne baaton baaton mein bola bhai rafi fans itne violent hote hai, hum chahe to bhi rafi sahab ko project karne se darte hai… Agar unki pasand ke mutabek kuchh na chala to gali galoj pe aa jayenge..

  177. 177
    Deep Jyoti Borah Says:

    Kishore da was a very versatile singer. How efficiently he used to sing a song,
    that level of perfection is not found in today’s music. Kishore da sung in the era when digital multitrack system of recording was not introduced and still he sounds so perfect and accurate. It touches my heart while listening to his songs especially when he suddenly goes from a lower pitch to a higher pitch in his songs , for example in “Hum Bewafa “.He is still alive in our hearts through his melodies.

  178. 178
    J.K. Bhagchandani Says:

    Post 175 & 176: I strongly protest and disagree with gentleman calling the ‘other forum’ as ‘hooligan adda’ and to Rafi fans as ‘gundas’ and ‘terrorists’. Please mind your language, gentlemen. What about those who deliberately come there to instigate this. One your Mr. Kishorefan recently sent a post there, part of which is reproduced below:

    “…….but I have never heard anybody praising or remembering rafi to the extent some rafi fans are projecting here. Excepting few die hard rafi fans (that too mainly old generation people) rafi is not remembered by many today. I have seen even old generation people, who grew up listening to rafi songs, not showing any interest today towards rafi songs. They will say, how many times we will listen the same song, I have heard it many times.”

    This is also another form of gundagardi, unleashed through sophisticated language. So please refrain from all this non-sense.

  179. 179
    arghya Says:

    Bhagchandaniji,

    1. Language is a sign of culture. If I feel that Talat Mehmood is no competition to Mohd. Rafi, I should put in a decent language my opinion, because as a respectable citizen, it is my responsibility not to hurt the image of Talat Mehmood(even if, say,I give a damn to his fans). Language is the first sign of people’s mentality and culture. Let us not put it in garbage.

    2. What was degrading in Kishore fans post by the way? Bhagchandaniji? If he says that no one remembers Rafi then you should contradict giving examples of hundreds of people who swear by Rafi’s name! It is indeed a point for you to prove that yes, Rafi is remembered! but what can you say about this comment?

    //binu nair Says:
    October 10th, 2009 at 8:32 am

    Post 199….

    Kishore ji ke “atma” ko dukh dene ke waaste ek baar phir yeh paagal chooha yahan par aa gaya hai.//

    or
    //unknow Says:
    October 15th, 2009 at 4:22 am
    As you know that KK changed his name and became a Muslim because a girl so shame.//

    Is it musical?

    or
    //binu nair Says:
    September 17th, 2009 at 9:27 am

    HALDAR SAAHEB ; The Third grade journalist and the Fourth grade pvt.detective can only do one thing when cornered. they will vanish from this site for some time like the four legged animal – hiding their tails.//

    Binu Nair talks about me? Why? Because I had asked a person on his authenticity as a musican when he was abusing Salil Chowdhury and R D Burman. And no, I did not vanish, Bhagchandaniji. I did not get my answer from the horses’ mouth, but got this response when i pasted the entire list of musicians under Pancham from his long time associates.

    //Mr Sandeep Nadkarni Says:
    September 21st, 2009 at 2:33 pm
    under these circumstances I request all the dear fans & admirers of Rafi Saab to totally avoid this bug as rightly suggested by Mr Haldar Saab. I am definitely sure that this joker Arghya is one of the most frustrated lot, importantly very jealous and above all the certified crook who has presently gone either mad or has been recently discharged from a mental hospital.
    Further it is also evident from his continued comments that he has absolutely no work at his disposal at present and is trying to just time pass or is showing off his cultured smartness to all of us. We are already having plenty of such jokers in this world around and with Arghya we have one more added to the list of jokers.
    The best and the simple way is to keep quiet, observe and ultimately sprinkle the required spray to flush out these poisonous mosquitoes to where they actually belong and as rightly said by me earlier “Arghya jare jare jakar gande nale mein pehle apna kala mooh dhoke aa”//

    And lastly this classic one from you:
    //J.K. Bhagchandani Says:
    September 12th, 2009 at 10:44 pm

    In one sentence Salil has insulted not only our Rafi saab but also almost entire music fraternity of the golden era of Indian film music, and that is unacceptable. Salilda is no more. It pains me to say such harsh words about him. But he had said something that has prompted these harsh words.//

    Waah, Bhagchandaniji, waah.. Only because Salil did not say goody goody words to Rafi, he is insulting the whole music industry??

    Do you know what did Naushad do? When Kishore was nominated for Lata Mangeshkar award, he was the first to start playing politics so that Kishore did not get that. Pritish Nandy has himself revealed that in his blog on 4th of August 2009. And do you know why still Kishore got it? Because, someone bigger than Naushad had supported Kishore as a jury- Shri Kumar Gandharva!! What do you say? Naushad insulting the whole music industry?? Has anyone ever from Kishore fans ever insulted Naushad or OP Nayyar here??

    Dont act like wimps, sir..

    I have not yet posted the comments made by people like Binu or Haldar to knowledgable Hindustani vocalists in your forum.. Utterly uncouth and despicable language..

    You call Kishore fans “pagal chuha” because they go to Rafi site and say Kishore is great?? What should I call you here then?

  180. 180
    Raja Adhya Says:

    Very Nice Topic Arghya Ji..This Is Another Side Of Kishore Da Which Is Always Underrated.
    I Like These Bhajan Based Songs – “Dekho O Deewano…Raam Ka Naam(Hare Rama Hare Krishna)”,”Geeton Mein Meri Ganga Ki Dhara(Geet Ganga)”,”Ek Roop Kayi Naam(Swami Dada)”,”Prem Ka Rog Laga(Do Premi)”…..

    Another Bengali Film Song May Be Come Under Kishore Da’s Devotional Songs,Which Is – O O Ma Patita Pawani Gange(Harish Chandra Saiva)..The Song Is Composed By Great Ravindra Jaina Ji.

    All These Songs Guru Sang So Nicely It Touch Our Heart After Hearing These Song One Time Only!….

  181. 181
    arghya Says:

    And ohh Bhagchandaniji, how could I miss this classic one.

    It came from an individual called B Venkatadri I suppose. as a response to kishorefan.

    What did Kishorefan say?
    “P Haldar you are the man! I LOVE the choice for the photo – so funny! The Rafi-Jaikishan combination is the best of the best!”

    Now, this gentleman, I dont know what he interpreted, owing to lack of many skills, replied in a classic way like his colleagues:

    “…I do not know which photo KF found funny, but I do indeed find that photo featuring RDB extremely funny! Look at RDB’s face in that photo! Doesn’t it look like the face of a drunken, drugged, insane, unpredictable, inconsistent man who, if alive now, could suddenly proclaim that any upstart of today is better than Rafi !…”

    What a language and how much frustration.. You expect people to greet them with garlands, Bhagchandaniji, with so much of uncouth language to a legend like Rahul Dev Burman..

    No doubt media would interpret you the way Paramjeet has mentioned.. No doubt.

    I also remember on 31st July, Times of India published an article on Kishore’s views on Rafi.. it contained all the good words by Kishore on Rafi which should make Rafi fans happy! But they again started abusing, and these are some classic reasons:

    * Why there is a photo of Kishore Kumar?? It is our farsihta’s anniversary, TOI people are cheap to put the photo of Kishore in stead of Rafi sahab.
    * A “learned” gentleman said- “May I ask, what is the big deal if Kishore praised Rafi sahab.. Why to publish it with so much of publicity? A mediocre singer like Kishore should praise the greatest singer in the universe..

    This discussions took place in a Rafi community in a social networking site.. And I just laughed.. Laughed wholeheartedly after a long long time since i had watched “Half Ticket”..

  182. 182
    Vitthal Says:

    Bhagchandani ji,

    Arghya ji is 100% correct. As a balanced rafi fan, I fully agree with him that one should use gentle language to convey his views and it should not hurt any individual. Not to offend anybody.

    In your message on Kishore fan ji, I have not found anything which is hurting to any body – he has expressed his views which can be easily replied to (if the respondent wants to reply and not stating facts such as I need not reply to you etc. )

    I too have seen that so called some people who call themselves as die hard rafi fans – themselves do not agree to the facts and practises which the great rafi had adhered to – a big surprise – how they can call themselves true rafi fans. One example is of Sri MYK ji himself addressed to kishore fan here saying that please do not quote statements such as rafi praised ghantasala many times and ghantasala did not praise rafi. If such a statement is made by kishore fan (which is true in fact ) why it is not agreed to by Mr. MYK when it is a fact, why to abuse kishore fan. What will Mr. MYK lose if he agrees to the true fact – does it lead to underestimating rafi ? In fact it shows that they do not even agree to statements made by rafi himself but call themselves as rafi fans. This shows that the thinking is why should kishore fans’s statement should be agreed to even if it is honestly true. A great question mark. Even I have agreed and respected to all of MYK ji ‘s views as I believe them as correct, but surprisingly has he agreed to my views (sorry the views by established legends repeated by me with evidences) Ref. my post 171 which has not been responded. What does this show – they know the facts are true but are not agreed openly since the prejudice factor of ‘surrendering to the facts’ (there is no other option) comes in between. Any how no issues.

    Similarly for nadkarni ji, (he is presently not here – so my excuses) when Arghya ji had asked certain LOGICAL questions to Nadkarni ji, it was a sheer escapism ( AND MOST SURPRISINGLY BINU NAIR JI AND OTHERS STARTED SUPPORTING HIM) and Arghya ji was ridiculed and wrong language was used against him. Even One Mr, Padmanabhan of Hyderabad rafi foundation chapter, a real rafi fan, had supported Arghya in this regard.

    Now, I have seen kishore fan ji’s post here, true, in Mohd. rafi with other playback singers col. Binu nair in one of the immediate previous posts has used the word to one kishore fan – mind your language or else….. what does this mean. He is the leader of the rafi foundation and claims as a true rafi fan. True, he is, but what is this intolerant attitude towards others.

    THE GREAT MOHD. RAFI HAD A GREAT ACCEPTANCE, COMPLETE PRAISE AND BEAUTIFUL TOLERANCE FOR OTHER INCOMPARABLE TALENTS OF THE COUNTRY VIZ., GHANTASALA & OTHERS SUCH AS KISHORE KUMAR, MANNA DEY ETC. SADLY, VERY SADLY SUCH ACCEPTANCE FACTOR IS ZERO AND THE TOLERANCE FACTOR IS PRACTICALLY ZERO IN SOME OF THE SO CALLED DIE HARD RAFI FANS. EVEN THE GREAT RAFI’S STATEMENTS/ PRACTICES ARE NOT AGREED TO BY THEM – INDEED VERY VERY SURPRISING.

  183. 183
    J.K. Bhagchandani Says:

    Arghyaji, You do have tremendous talent in ‘copy-paste’ technique, dear. There is no justification for any degrading words written by any one for any legend. I did not say anytrhing against Salilda except that his comment on Rafisaab was in bad taste. If you feel that such things should not be posted (or the language was too harsh), then at least you should have refrained from writing retaliatory note about Naushad. At least that would have established some credibility to your self-proclaimed quality of ‘decency’. As far as fans vs. fans is concerned… you find everything wrong in words ‘fourh grade detective’, ‘pagal chooha’, ‘joker’ etc. but nothing wrong in more deadly words ‘terrorist’, ‘goonda’ etc. Your mask is out dear.

  184. 184
    paramjeet Says:

    bhagchandaniji..
    Yeh aapka naqab hai jo utar gaya hai..
    Naushad sahab ko kisine boora nahi kaha.. Aap lof salilda ke comment pe unko gaali diye aur hum naushad sahab ki sachaai jaanke bhi chup rahe.. Woh ek mahan sangeetkar the aur rahenge.. Woh kishoreda ko support nahi kare to bhi..

    Rahi baat Arghyaji ki,, aaj tak halti se ho sakta hai main kabhi kuchh bol diya ho’ magar jitna respectable arghyaji rahe hai, woh bhi itni saari bekaar baatein sunne ke baad haldar aur binu jaise lohon se, main unki culture aur ethics ko abhivadan deta hoon..

    Aur yeh gundagardi ki baatein hum nahi bol rahe hai janab, yeh poori duniya aap un 15-20 logon ke baare mein sochti hai. Ghar jaiye aur aaraam karke wahan pe kaam pe lagiye.. Aaj kumar gandharvaji ka bhi to chatni pakana hai aap logon ko…

  185. 185
    paramjeet Says:

    aur hum bhala kyun kuchh bole kisiko? Nuksaan kiska hua aakhir mein? Kishoreji ko mila na lata mangeshkar award? Koi rok paya? Nahi.

    winner aur loser mein yehi to antar hai.. Loser chillate rehte hai aur winners chup chap baithke maze lete hai unke frustrations ka’ jaise main le raha hoon adarniya bhagchandaniji ka..

  186. 186
    J.K. Bhagchandani Says:

    Vitthalji,

    What I was looking for is the equal condemnation of terms ‘terrorist’, ‘goonda’ etc. (used at this forum) from (at least) a balanced person like you. I have a straight question. Please restrict your reply to this only and for a change do not beat around the bush. The question is “Do you subscribe to these terms or not?”

    And to remind you these terms have been used here without any provocation or instigation. It all started from posts 173, 175, 176 etc.

  187. 187
    Vitthal Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    When it comes to awards I know the bigger politics played in a nasty way ?

    This is only a concern sharing discussion – Arghya ji and no meaning of offence to anybody pl.

    Kishore kumar was not even given padmashri, many underrated talents have been given padmasri, you can find today people who have won padmasri in numerous numbers. What is the reason you know – pure politics.

    Ghantasala was recommended directly the highest civilian award ( Padmavibhushan in those days) by A P Govt. in 60’s – the response was mohd. rafi is having padmasri – same will be given. C M Brahmananda reddy of AP had a fight with the centre stating that Rafi of Hindi is in no way comparable to ghantasala of south, but only padmasri was awarded to ghantasala. Perhaps this is the first instance of a CM fighting over a talented artist, in the history of the country. (This point had been told to my relative in 1972 personally by ghantasala himself).

    P suseela of south, the incomparable lady talented singer of the south was not even given padmasri, like kishore kumar, but after long lobbying in 2008 ( I think ) she was awarded padmabhushan, the 3 rd highest civilian award. Surprisingly, SPB got padmasri in 2001 itself – god knows, how this happened when talents like p suseela did not get any award.

    I am happy that Lata Mangeshkar, Manna dey and K J Yesudas have been duly recognised for their talents , I think with Bharat ratna (highest civilian award today) for lata & padmabhushan awards for others. Sadly, I feel, even today kishore had not been given any civilian award. Even my concern remains, the greatest talents rafi and ghantasala have got very lesser awards, more so in the latter’s case, despite strong recommendation.

    Greatest music composers of India, such as Naushad, S D Burman etc. and S Rajeswara Rao & others from the south, had original incomparable gifted talents, but they are not remembered today or celebrated with much hype as is created for Mr A R Rehman today (no offence only an observation)

    What do you say Arghya ji ?

  188. 188
    Vitthal Says:

    Bhagchandani ji,

    I fully subsribe to your views – demeaning terms should not be used by anybody.

    But I also feel, that Arghya ji and Paramjeet ji have responded ONLY in response to similar comments of some rafi fans. They never started or used any words on their own. That’s all. Where is the problem here ? Moreover, you will yourself appreciate, for long discussions have been very smooth here. In fact, I really appreciate MYK ji in this regard, he is one of the persons who uses very decent language, though he has a straight views & personally he may not agree to other’s views. Of course everybody has a right of his own choice. Even sir, your views are also fully respected herein. But would you subscribe to my view, if you call kishore as greater in rafi forum ( as arghya ji asks) the response will be ………..

    But here, even if somebody says rafi is great or even I have said (to be honest fully) ghantasala is greater, still how positively arghya ji and paramjeet ji have responded and fruitful discussions have followed. I hope you got the point sir.

  189. 189
    arghya Says:

    Post 183.
    Sheer escapism. I exactly knew what would be the response and it fell in line exactly the same way.

    Mr.Bhagchandani said : “Arghyaji, You do have tremendous talent in ‘copy-paste’ technique, dear”

    No Sir, I don’t have. I am still a learner in front of Mr. P Halder- one of your colleagues, who is a master in that art. This is the first time I tried out this art..

    Mr. Bhagchandani said: “There is no justification for any degrading words written by any one for any legend.”

    Then why are you asking justifications to some questions raised by Kishorefan which did not even degrade a legend?

    Mr. Bhagchandani said: “I did not say anytrhing against Salilda except that his comment on Rafisaab was in bad taste.”

    I also find OP’s comment on Kishore in bad taste. Show me where I had said he had insulted the entire industry by those remarks? Or, forget me, show any fan here. In fact, a Rafi fan rather, called Manish, once asked OP’s intention behind commenting such things against Kishore. I only said “forget it”.

    Mr. Bhagchandani said: “If you feel that such things should not be posted (or the language was too harsh), then at least you should have refrained from writing retaliatory note about Naushad. At least that would have established some credibility to your self-proclaimed quality of ‘decency’.”

    Yes, Bhagchandaniji, this is in fact decency. I only said what Pritish Nandy had said in his blog. I never commented on Naushad sahab-although it also hurt me a lot- considering I am a Kishore fan-I am no one to verify the incident. The reason i said this is beacuse 99.99% Kishore fans had ignored that blog of a famous person. For them, it does not matter at all.. Because, at the end of the day, Kishore DID GET THE AWARD BACKED BY A BIGGER CLASSICAL MUSICIAN! It seems for you people it really matters very much as to what Salil had said as if to protect something which would get exposed if let the thing be kept in its place. My representation was in terms of our decency to musicians who opposed Kishore vis a vis your decency to musicians who opposed Rafi. You also know this very well. But you represented my comments again like an opportunist. Escapism, again!

    Mr. Bhagchandani said: “As far as fans vs. fans is concerned… you find everything wrong in words ‘fourh grade detective’, ‘pagal chooha’, ‘joker’ etc. but nothing wrong in more deadly words ‘terrorist’, ‘goonda’ etc. Your mask is out dear.”

    I knew you would tell this. But this is not my “special comments”. These adjectives are used for you people even by Ghantashala or Manna fans. Reasons? We have long explained. I am bored now.

    By the way, there are good Rafi fans still there. When Binu was abusing Kishore and RD,(ridiculous comments like hoarse voice and trash music) there was a Rafi fan who raied his voice:

    //manish Says:
    September 22nd, 2009 at 10:05 pm

    “voice of sholay”

    iirc, the audio recording was messed up for that movie. sholay was supposed to have some special quality sound and the audio tapes were taken to london where the engineers screwed up .

    “rd/salil did not like rafi – its a fact”

    the more correct way to word it is that rd & salil liked other singers more. rd did not have active personal issues or an agenda against rafi. however rd was a human with his own opinions and tastes and liked to other singers better. this is not to say he did not like rafi. of course, in the industry all that matters is who you like more since you can have only one singer render your solo composition. i like to listen to rafi because he’s my favorite but that doesn’t mean i have anything against other singers. if i had my radio station, for a given month, i may play 70% songs of rafi & lata. so i am indirectly, through my taste, promoting rafi & lata over other singers. however, that is not my active intention. same with rd.//

    Beautiful, Manish.. There has never been a better Rafian than you..

    Or there is? Here is an equally good reply:

    //Sid Says:
    September 23rd, 2009 at 11:09 am

    Manish:totally agree with you here. I do not hate kishore,asha or lata just because I listen to rafisaab the most.

    If that were the case then naushad,sj, op, roshan etc all did not like kk //

    I am always respectful to genuine Rafians who have the courage to call spade a spade..

    Bhagchandaniji’s reply is very much in line with what I expected.. Escapism..

    By the way, how did you find the comment on RDB, Bhagchandaniji? Real admirable for your side..Isn’t it?

    Some things doctors should prescribe to avoid for the Rafians like Binu and co.-KK and RD are two of them- blood pressure raising agents.

  190. 190
    arghya Says:

    Post 186..

    Do you want the reason why those adjectives are used? Although I have explained in my last post, it really does not take that much of toil to ask Vitthalji..

    Just go through the posts in http://www.mohdrafi.com in two articles:

    1. Versatility- thy name is mohammed rafi.
    2. The true voice.

    Good enough to get your answers why that gang is called “hooliguns”. Dont try to convolute topics here. We have better jobs in hand.

    Kishorefan: bro, please next time onwards, do not raise any issue going on in that Taalibani camp. I saw a person called HP just recently commenting that “Kishore used to shout on high scales”. Perhaps he has also not heard low note renditions of many people even if I consider his statement to be true. There are people who want to show down others to show up his legend.. And that Al Qaida of music is a classic example.

  191. 191
    paramjeet Says:

    bhagchandaniji ka post 186 se ek baat yaad aati hai.

    Twin tower udaane ke baad osama bin laden ne kaha tha’ humko atankavadi kyun bulaya jata hai’??

    Hah..hah.. Bhagchandaniji, aap ko pata hai kyun?

  192. 192
    arghya Says:

    I think Bhagchandaniji’s games are over..

    > First he came rushing to this side trashing some Kishore devotional songs to which he got technical answers and kept mum.

    >Then he shouted at me and just when he could see he is sounding “too anti-Kishore” he somehow grabbed on to a okeyish Kishore song( yes, even I am saying that) from Mashooqa(perhaps, just thinking for the future that he can use this song to prove that even his most favourite kishore song is an average one) and tried to prove he loves Kishore. There also he got a befitting reply.

    > He questioned on Salil Chowdhury’s regionalistic mentality. He again got technical and factual response. He could make out things were turning hostile.

    >Suddeny, he found some support and again tried to poke his nose catching on some lines from Kishorefan on classical music. There also Paramjeet handled him with a fantastic analysis of classical music (each and every point lucidly presented). He again felt retreated as if decided not to come to this site again but just to keep a watch.

    > Now, suddenly, he saw Kishorefan’s point and subsequesnt resposne from us on abusal of Kishore and thought “man, now I can grab on this”.. Alas, in the course of playing innocent he was himself not aware what mudslinging his colleagues had already made.

    >So when they were presented, he somehow, in a hurried fashion tried to make a response desparately trying to fetch some loopholes which did not exist at all, wrote something too diluted.

    > Now, when all are going against him, in order to twist and turn the things he is headstrong on two adjectives, knowing very well, how they were originated and under what circumstances.

    This is a classic example of invasion for you, freinds. A case of deputation which has ended poorly.

    Sorry, Bhagchandaniji, we would never abuse Rafi sahab, Naushad sahab, OP whomsoever.. They have all made our lives so beautiful.. We love Kishoreda, but we never ignore the amount of contribution these people had done to the industry. Be happy and live happily..

  193. 193
    Raj Says:

    185 paramjeet ji –

    Ha Ha ha (winners laugh in a secret way) – great post sir, – You are correct .

  194. 194
    Surajit Bose Says:

    Hi,

    There were some good discussions between Arghya ji, Vitthal ji, and Paramjeet ji that were spoiled by some quarreling and name calling.

    Vitthal ji, regarding your posts 120 and 138, I am not sure I understand what you mean by melody factor. But if I understand you correctly, it could be that you mean that Kishore sings in a more “straightforward” way while Rafi has a more “classical” approach to singing.

    In fact, I think that was the main reason why Rafi was preferred over Kishore and Manna Dey for many of the ’60’s songs. Because, though he didn’t have the classical training of Manna Dey, he had a better filmy voice and, because of his brief stint at classical music, his approach to singing, even normal songs, was like a classicist.

    But, strictly talking about technical aspects, the first goal of classical training in vocal music is to achieve a high degree of voice control and develop a voice culture. By voice culture, I mean control over your vocal chords, your breath, and develop the technique of resonance by proper use of your diaphragm, your vocal and nasal cavities. Ornamentation by means of taans, aakars etc. are explored only after this has been achieved. And Kishore had successfully developed all these aspects of “classical” singing without any specific formal training. It is just that his songs are not “classical”. But most people are superficial listeners who do not pay attention to his singing. They pay more attention to the song. Nobody talks about his voice, his breath control, his ability to project, his techniques of resonance, his ability to switch notes etc.

    While it is true that Rafi has ventured into more genres than Kishore, and there are some genres that Rafi would be better suited to than Kishore, one must also accept that Rafi had his limitations exposed a lot more than Kishore.

    Rafi’s superiority over Kishore, to me, is mostly in the lingering alaaps (like in the beginning of “Madhuban mein radhika”), his “classical” approach to singing (this is more of a mindset than a technical skill), and his ability to sing in a very high scale. However, Kishore is superior to Rafi in songs where there is switching of notes within a short interval, in singing songs in the Mandra saptak (low pitch), and the genius factor that nobody else has.

    To me, it is difficult to compare both technically. However, I agree that, in terms of artistic impact, Rafi ranks above Kishore. But this is, in no small part, due to the superlative music directors who graced HFM during the 50’s and 60’s.

    About Ghantasala and Rafi, I heard quite a few songs from a gentleman named Pardus on the Rafi forum, and there is no question that Ghantasala is far superior, technically, to both Rafi and Manna Dey. Neither of them even come close to Ghantasala.

  195. 195
    paramjeet Says:

    bhagchandaniji, gunda gardi se hi logon ko gunda bola jata hai.. Aasaan si baat hai..zyada bhola mat baniye..

  196. 196
    Vitthal Says:

    Surajit Bose ji – 194 – Welcome sir,

    Great thanks for your post – I fully agree with you sir, cent percent on all your views expressed therein. Kishore vs. Rafi, i admire the facts which you had put in a better way. The fact which you have stated, if kishore is heard correctly – yes indeed, the output would be always different. Another point sir, as i always stress on that is without being in the line of original classical singing, he developed attributes of a great singer. This itself shows the speciality of kishore. And similarly on mohd. rafi’s talents too, your points are well appreciated sir, Great.

    Regarding Ghantasala vs. Rafi, I can say sir, you have again confirmed and vindicated the facts, already stated regarding ghantasala’s far reaching superiority over rafi (which rafi himself used to admit) & others, by other musicians in rafi forum mainly Vasu ji, Ramakrishna ji, Khan ji and you yourself (i have seen your nice posts in rafi forum) & here in kishore forum by sri vas ji as well as paramjeet ji (another musician who has been found out now) & arghya ji as well and more so the comments of established legends on ghantasala. Thanks again for the beautiful post sir.

    Your honest, true and frank views are fully appreciated sir and there is no contradiction on any of the facts.

    Regarding name calling and quarelling, it has been & is the case even today, mainly with some biased rafi fans sir, when some honest and true facts are presented, and which they are not able to digest. So nothing to bother about on that front. It has become a regular feature, more so in rafi forum.

  197. 197
    arghya Says:

    Mr. Surajit Bose.

    Dada, your last post explains things in a very systematic way. Though, I would also like to add something here:

    1. Kishore had an edge over all others(not only Rafi) in terms of “experimentaion”. Whcih I have always maintained, there were songs which would have never been made had there been no Kishore Kumar. Forget about “aake seedhi lagi” and all- which are definitely there- even a song like ” Chala jaat hoon” is impossible to imagine in any other singer’s voice in the same way.. He also transformed yoodelling as a mere form of happiness to an expression of romance in “Thandi hawa yeh chandni suhani”, an expression of grief in “She dino aakaashe chhilo koto tara” even lgnoring the complexity of them. Here Kishore stands out as an “experimentor”.

    2. Also, owing to his vocal purity, Kishore was a singer who could pull of an orchestraless song with sheer attraction. A classic example is “Jin raaton ki bhor nahi hai” or much unknown “Bidhir bandhon kaatbe tumi” from Stayajit Ray’s Ghare Baaire. Here is the song

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIMVrHSW4so

    Look at the comments passed in the response section also. It amazed people how the resonance of his voice echoed to your ears without music.

    3. Regarding your obesrvation of “straight singing” , Surajitda.. I give you another youtube clip here. very interesting:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK9Uqk-8IV4

    Both the songs were made around the same time with same tune- first one Indian and the other one Pakistani. Without going into the arguement which one is original or not, Surajitda, I would like to draw your attention here on the “gayaki” part of it.. While Kishore’s expressions and maneuvres remain straight but deep emotional, Muhammed sahab renders it with lots of harqats and making it convolutedly presented. Now, if you had given both the songs to a music lover in ,say, 1960, he would have definitely voted for the Pakistani one as a better rendition. Ask anyone today, maximum people would love the Kishore’s version. Kishore was ahead of his time, in terms of playback singing, as he and only he could grasp the requisites of a song from a pure playback point of view. His singing were straight but emotions and enactment were unparallelled.

    —————————————————————————-

    My sincere request to Vitthalji, Paramjeetji, Kishorefan, Raj and all.

    It seems we are again back on the musical ground. Let us please forget that Bhagchandaniji episode. This is wasteage of time. I also got carried away. It looks frustrating when people try to act innocent as if they dont know anything. Anyways, leave it.

    ——————————————————————————-

    Vitthalji,

    Many greivances, many unknown and despicabe things come out when we talk about awards. There are always problems. Don’t think it was a cakewalk for Kishore also in the early seventies. He had to convert all the MDs, producers, directors, actors and above all the audience to be favourables when the same lot only a couple of years back were continously rejecting him. And it was hardly a matter of a few years, and not an entire generation, mind you… So, to speak of or to raise question on Kishore’s abilities is outrageous in my opinion.. I wont be talking of them too much here, I personally do not enjoy at all talking of industry politics. I respect and appreciate what you said.. But some things are better kept as it is. Thanks, sir..

  198. 198
    myk Says:

    Vitthal-ji (Ref Post 171)

    Nothing personal against you definitely (as I have mentioned)….all we have discussed is in the name of music, nothing more, nothing less.

    Also, if Rafi had praised Ghantasala that is great. I never disputed any remarks by any music personalities which you have mentioned, and accept them as any other comments by others.

    Praise from those steeped in music means a lot (as I have stated), but its not the only factor that contributes to greatness. Which is why I mentioned that a statement from others such as “Rafi praising Ghantasala and Ghantasala not praising Rafi means Ghantasala is better” is not a correct mindset. It could be that Ghantasala respected Rafi and rated him highly, and praised him (behind public view or maybe even in public). What is correct is that both Ghantasala and Rafi have received numerous praise from others which show their greatness.
    I personally think that Rafi’s greatness treads past just Hindi Film Music, where one will see that many from different regions as well as globally are in awe of the great man. This, I feel, is one factor (but not the only one), that makes him unmatched. But surely, Ghantasala receiving praise from others too is noted and appreciated.

    I also think there is a wrong generalization about some fans in certain fan groups. Every fan group has their share of extremists, who lack knowledge, and those people should not be confused or bracketed with other knowledgeable individuals in these fan groups.

    Great discussing music with you Sir !.

  199. 199
    Vitthal Says:

    Myk ji – 198

    Please accept my full appreciations sir, I could see the real rafi fan in this MYK ji now. Thanks very much sir.

  200. 200
    Kapil Says:

    Ref to the post by Surijit Bose
    ——————————————
    Kishore is superior to Rafi in songs where there is switching of notes within a short interval, in singing songs in the Mandra saptak (low pitch), and the genius factor that nobody else has.
    ——————————————-

    Regarding voice of “mandra saptak”, Mukesh was the one, whose voice *naturally* belonged to that saptak, and for that matter he indeed had an edge over his peers. And if we bring in the singers, earlier to his generation also, he was second to Saigal only in that regard, not close second but a distant second.

    As for others, most of them were voice of “Madhya-Saptak”, Kishore also, so can’t understand really how could Kishore outshine Rafi in that regard, in fact Rafi has sung more songs and more melodious songs in that genre, than Kishore. Also, prior to Baiju Bawra Rafi would mostly sing in between mandra-madhya saptak only..

    Regarding switching of notes, no one can outshine Rafi, for sure, you need to revisit Rafi’s repertoire, and you will definitely get best of the best examples of switching and gliding over notes.

    Anyways, the genre in which Kishore excelled more than others was the one which SD explored, having Kishore with him, that too in very early of 50’s. Fun songs were also executed best by the Kishore.

  201. 201
    paramjeet Says:

    kapilji,

    Koi surprising baat nahi ke apko lowest octave ke baare mein zyada jaankari nahi hai. Mukesh aur Kishore Kumar dono hi low to medium octave range mein belong karte hai aur Rafi medium to high range mein.

    Kishore ka lowest octave range genrally four notes tak cover karta tha, ie, ma-pa-dha-ni, Mukesh ka pa-dha-ni, pa ke neeche maine Mukeshji ko suna nahi hai, kuchh examples share kar sakte hai to achha rahega. Rafi sahab shuru shuru mein dha tak hit karte the, 70s ke baad woh bhi problematuc ho gaya, highest octave mein woh best the, unse behetar maine kisiko suna nahi. Manna De bhi nahi.

    Kishore ke 14 maatra ke gaane ‘koi humdum na raha’ ya ‘koi jota jisko apna’ ya ‘pyar tumhe kis mode pe'(slow aur fast milaake’kyunki woh gaana ek hi hai) agar aap sune wahan aap ko samajh mein aayega Kishore ka low notes mein clarity kaisa tha.. Mukeshji bhi lowest octave mein Rafi sahab se achhe the, magar sur ka pakad Kishoreda ka better tha..

  202. 202
    Vitthal Says:

    Kapil ji,

    I concur with paramjeet ji’s views. What I personally feel about rafi ji’s greatness is that he was very comfortable and attractive in medium octave, high pitch also he was good (better than other hindi singers), in voice flexibility also rafi was great and of course since he was classically trained, he could sing in a sophisticated way. Added to that an attractive melodious voice coupled with above talents made rafi attractive.

    What makes kishore unique is without basic classical training, he made himself an attractive singer. Regarding low pitch observations, it was that kishore did attempt few of the lower notes than rafi ji (there was one link here shobana … ratri of rabindra sangeet by kishore) where in he sings some 4 notes in the lower octave. The basic difference is that without much trained, kishore had proved himself to be a great singer with numerous fan following even today and who is greatly remembered along with accomplished great playback singers of the country viz., ghantasala, rafi, lata, etc. This makes kishore great.

    Regarding Mukesh, I do not think his voice could touch high ranges. In medium octave, mukesh too was nice to hear. His speciality was he could sing notes very plainly without any special effects. (I think rafi also did not render any notes plainly – of course any singer who is classically trained will never render notes plainly) Once I had heard SPB saying that singing notes very plainly is also a fine skill which is not possible for many and in this line Mukesh was special to hear. Mukesh too had a good voice and he had indeed rendered some fine songs which have become famous.

  203. 203
    satyansh Says:

    Admin of this site,

    Thank you for all the hard work you put in to maintaining this site. While you are not known to me and many other music-lovers, we are indebted to you for allowing people access to a public forum where they can share their views.

    Arghya,

    First of all, thank you for a well-researched article. The discussions have indeed gone track through intrusion, but I am glad to see that you guys have managed to keep it in check. Also, happy to see Surajit ji and KishoreFan still around. Looks like we have more knowledgeable Ghantasala fans here too (Vithal ji, greetings to you) who can continue to share more on the genius. Lalit ji and Srivas ji’s articles made for real good reading. Lalit ji, I don’t know why you disappeared, but please do start sharing your knowledge again. Surajit again hit the nail on the head with post 194. Arghya, you know a lot about Bengali numbers – with regards to Rabindra Sangeet, what is the general scale it is played on? Could it be that some singers are more suited to Rabindra Sangeet than others?

    Paramjeet ji,

    Namaskar – bahut der baad adan-pradaan ho raha hai.

    Aap kaafi acchi charchaon ke sahbhagi rahe hain aur mein aapke adhiktar udaharaNo se sehmat hoon. Aapki hasya aur vyang se bhari kuch tipaNiyon ka maine bhi anand uthaya hai :). Aapne post 201 mein jo kaha woh bhi sahi hai. Mai aapse Manna Dey se sambandhit ek baat ka khulasa karna chahta hoon. Jab aap highest octave ki baat kar rahe hain, aap keval svar hit karne ki baat kar rahe hain ya ki kuch aur? Jaisa ki aap jante hain ki Manna Dey ne tara mein bhi bahut kamaal kiya hai aur unki semi-classical renditions ki charcha mai abhi aur nahi karna chahta (aajkal likhne ka zyada samay nahi milta 🙂 ). Mujhe bhi Rafi ke medium-high octave ke gaane kaafi pasand hain aur iska sabse bada karan hai unki awaaz ki mithaas aur high note hit karte samay uss mithaas ko samete rakhne ki KhSamata.

    Waise Manna Dey ne “Sur Na Saje” mein highest note kaunsa hit kiya tha?

    Kripaya issi tarah likhte rahiyega.

  204. 204
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    My apologies. Mai aapse “Bhay Bhanjana” ke baare mein poochna chahta tha par bhool se “Sur Na Saje” likh diya.

  205. 205
    paramjeet Says:

    yeh dekho kaun aa gaya.. Satyansh bhai ko dekh ke ek gaana yaad aa gaya -‘tum aaye to aaya mujhe yaad, gali mein aaj chand nikla…’, kaise ho sir aap?? Id ka chand ho gaye the ‘true voice’ ka baad…

    Haan, Satyansh bhai, main swara ki hi baat kar raha tha.. Magar baat sirf notes hit karne ki hi nahi hai.. Aap ko pata hoga Satyansh bhai, tara mein jo notes pe rafi sahab jaate the wahan pe generally logon ki voice patli ho jaati thi( ‘ga’ se aage).. Lataji ga tak theek lagti thi tara mein, uske aage kaafi shrll voice ho jaati thi unki.. Us hisaab se Rafi sahab ki awaaz badalti nahi thi..swar hit karne ke saath saath ek voice stability bhi thi unki jis wajah se tara mein mujhe lagta hai woh auron se behetar the..

    Magar udara mein unki parishaniyan kaafi thi.. Waise Satyanshji, aap agar Kishore ka tara aur Rafi ka udara compare karein to main bolunga Kishore ka tara better stable tha.. Rafi sahab ki awaaz ek dum se unstable ho jaati thi ‘ni’ ke neeche magar kishore tara ke ‘ga’ tak stable rehte the in fact ‘ma’ pe bhi 70s se pehle, yaani ki jab unki umar thodi kam thi..

    Rafi sahab ki stability mudara ‘sa’ se tara ‘dha’ tak maintain tha jo kareeb 14 maatra ka range cover karti hai aur Kishore ki stability low ‘ma’ se lekar high ‘ga’ tak tha jo ki again 14 maatra cover karti hai.. To rangewise main dono ko alag nahi dekhta.

    Magar Satyansh bhai, Hindi movies mein high pitch singing ka prachalan hone ke baad(early 50s se) sangeetkaron ne rafi ke strength pe zyada kaaam shuru kiya.. Isi liye bhi kyun ki sad songs high pitch mein hone se movies mein ek emotional impact aata tha.. Dramatization ke view se.. Is wajah se rafi ki pratibha ubhar kar saamne aayi aur dusron ko peechhe chhor di,.

    70 s mein Kishore top mein aane ke baad sangeetkaron ne theek ulta kiya jo unhone Rafi ke saath 15-20 saal pehle kiya tha.. Is baar Kishore ke strength pe kaam hone lage.. Ek ke baad ek low octave songs, jeevan darshan pe gaane, khuli awaaz se dard bhare gaane, rock n roll aur karaoke gaane, comedy gaane, yoodelling, deep voice se romantic gaane- sabhi jagah Kishore click karne lage..

    To main yehi bolunga ke talent sabhi mein hi hai magar samay samay ki baat hoti hai,bhai..

    Manna ji ka woh dusra wala gaana maine suna nahi Achhe se Satyansh bhai.. Sunke batata hoon.. Pehli baar kisine hindi mein jawab diya, achha laga.. Nahi to hamare bangali babu hamesha bolte rehte hai angrezi mein likho..hahaha..

  206. 206
    paramjeet Says:

    vitthalji se ek prashna hai..

    Sir, Ghantashalaji ka koi hasya geet(fun songs) ya koi fast track gaana share kar sakte hai yahan pe?? Matlab ‘saamne yeh kaun aaya’ jaisa koi gaana??

  207. 207
    arghya Says:

    Hi Satyansh,
    Rabindra Sangeet emphasizes on a voice culture- deep and heavy in texture- to give the songs the required feel and beauty..

    It demands a good control on the low and medium octave.. Only Hemant and Kishore from filmy singers could contribute significantly in Rabindra sangeet(of course, the former one contributing much much more),as it is a highly niche segement and because many times singers get rejected only because “their voice and their pitch do not suit Tagore songs”..

    Here is a Hemant Kumar Tagore song for you:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2inr_tZiq-8&feature=PlayList&p=2535F4EE0B3CFAC2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3

    Don’t miss the comments also..

    In Hindi, songs like “Jaye to jaye kaha”, ” Tere mere milan ki yeh raina”, “‘Chhukar mere man ko” are taken from Tagore songs..

  208. 208
    Vitthal Says:

    Paramjeet ji – 206

    Here is a hasya geet of ghantasala from the famous telugu evergreen film Mayabazar – (this film can be seen any number of times even today) – Sundari nee vanti ……

    The actor is Relangi Venkatramaiah, the greatest of the comedians from telugu cine world and was the first comedian from the south to have won Padmasri award in 1954 from the Govt. The Music direction is by Ghantasala himself.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0uW8RGCkZc&feature=related

    There are many hasya geets by ghantasala (specially a filmy album on relangi is available) The above song is one of the most appreciated fun song. For your views paramjeet ji.

    By the way here is one romantic solo number in Mohana Raga (music direction by ghantasala himself) Mounamuga nee manasu …….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrMgxDIuAuQ

    Arghya ji, for your esteemed views pl.

    Paramjeet ji – You have not responded to my post 153 on the song posted therein.

  209. 209
    arghya Says:

    A small story on Mere Naina sawan bhado as shared by Jatin of Jatin-Lalit fame in the documentory Zindagi Ek Safar directed by Mr. Sandip Ray.

    RD chose Lata and Kishore to sing the two versions of this song. Lata recorded but Kishore declined saying “yeh sab mere liye nahi hai”..RD insisted to which Kishore said “give me three days time to think over.” RD said “Ok” and then in a threatening voice said” You will have to come back, otherwise I would call Rafi”..

    Kishore did come back.. exactly after three days walking into the recording room and declaring “Pancham, I am ready” and the song was okeyed in one take!!

    Pancham was speechless.. Kishore came to him and said” Pancham, now record the song with whoever you want, but let me tell you, even after decades, people would remember my version and not others,,,” Pancham did not reply, just stood speechless..

    Jatin concludes” How true Kishoreda was….”

    Pancham included the Kishore version as his most favourite song of himself later..

    Kishore included this song as one of his own top 10..

    Great songs are created this way… People try to trash them only to degrade themselves and expose their own biasedness and jealousy..

  210. 210
    Kapil Says:

    Paramjeet Ji, on your farmaish, Mukesh hitting “Komal-Madhyam” of “Mandra-saptak”:

    Ab yaad na kar, MD:Anil Biswas, Anokha Pyar(1948):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxTJQZWC-2s

    In fact i would suggest you to listen all Mukesh songs with Anil Biswas and Roshan and just have an understanding how well Mukesh excelled in between lower octave to mid octave, and of course, musical values in those songs are definitely more than the songs you have mentioned in your post.

    By the way, Mujhe samjhaiyega ki “Koi hum dum na raha” mein Kishore sahab ki low notes clarity ka kaise pata chalta hai? kya is song ka koi aur bhi version hai jo low notes mein composed hai ..:-P

    Will write more on this, but later.. ..

  211. 211
    paramjeet Says:

    kapilji,
    aap ka point agar gaane ke melody ke upar hai to main sabse pehle aapki shukriya ada karta hoon itna khubsoorat gaana sunane ke liye..
    Leking agar aap ka point low notes hitting pe hai, sabse neecha sur’zamana’ words pe ‘pancham’ ke neeche nahi ho sakta hai Kapilji.. Madhyam aap ne bola mujhe ‘pa’ se neeche nahi laga, considering Mukeshji ki age us time 24-25 saal ka tha, unki awaaz mein ‘zamana’ word pe ek stretch sunaai deti hai jo 52 saal ki umar tak bhi ‘madhyam udara saptak’ mein Kishore ka nahi tha.. aap thoda sa preconceived hai kishoreji ke baare mein isi liye shayad ‘koi humdum na raha’ theek se sune nahi, agli baar suniyega to mukhde ke notes aur antare ke notes khaali note kar lijiyega, kyun aur kisliye aap note karne ke baad bataunga..

    Waise woh Rabindrasangeet ‘saghana raatri’ abhi bhi pada hua hai Arghyaji ke diye hue downlaods link mein.. Aap ko aapka ‘comedian’ perception change nahi karna hai to theek otherwise thodi si takleef uthake woh gaana suniyega 52 saal ki umar mein madhyam udara mein sustain karna kya hota hai,, aur woh gaana(language to khair mujhe bhi kuchh samajh mein nahi aayi) khud uthaane ka try kare..

    Mukeshji humare bahut hi close hai.. Jaise Vithalji ne bataya’notes to plain hits karna bhi ek bahut difficult kaam hai’.. Aap melody aspect mein bolenge to main kuchh nahi bolunga kyunki sabki apni apni pasand hai.. Magar technically udara saptak mein Kishoreji se badhkar stability maine dekha nahi, aur clarity bhi!!

  212. 212
    paramjeet Says:

    vitthalji.. Maza aa gaya.. Sahi mein..
    Keep it up sirji!!
    Actually woh 153 wala song khul nahi raha mere computer pe.. Koi youtube link de do us gaane ka..

  213. 213
    arghya Says:

    Well, I have heard only one “Koi humdum na raha” and that is this one:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDPb2ShfjHo

    where in mukhda the lowest note at “sahara” is “pa” and of course “dha” and “ni” are also covered in the mukhda.. The antara goes high as “ga”.. There should be no issue regarding low notes of the song, IMHO..

    By the way, there is another version.. Since the topic has come.. This version I just discussed over phone with Satyansh last night..

    http://www.sendspace.com/file/pa14yp

    Now, these song is very very very rare.. I think this forum is being kept close watch in by people as a mean to collect rare songs.. LOLz..

    Jokes apart, people might find in the rare version with more “soul” and “innocence”- that is not my case.. Point to be noted is the scale in the mukhda which Kishore adjusts while remaking it .. He broughts down to udara and then in antara he retains the tara part..

    Leave about low octave and soul and innocence also- this is a work of a sheer genius composer and a singer..

    Trivia: ( I am loving it…LOL)- After hearing the modified version, Ashok Kumar resisted saying “It is becoming 14 maatra, you cannot pull this off” to which Kishore said” I dont understand this maatra-waatra, just leave it to me, I will show..”

    Yes, indeed he showed.. To all except one or two persons here and there..LOLZ.

  214. 214
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    Kya gaana yaad aaya hai aapko – lol. Uss forum ka ek accha sadasya tha jo bura manane laga aur woh kuch nirash lag raha tha to mai wahan se nikal gaya. Baki saare music ke baare mein baat nahi karte the, befizool ki behas karte hain. Arghya ji bhi acchi Hindi bol lete hain. Chunki script Angrezi hai aur font chotte to padhne mein takleef hoti hogi :). Mai to unse doorbhash par visheshtar Hindi/Angrezi mein hi vartalaap karta hoon. Waise aajkal Angrezi ka prachalan itna ho gaya hai ki log matribhasha mein kam hi bolte hain par apne Bengali babu to Hindi, English, Bengali, Marathi sabhi bolte hain :).

    Mai aapse sehmat hoon, Rafi ki awaaz itni patli nahi hoti. Mere khayal mein Rafi ki awaaz mein bass accha tha isiliye woh utne high scale par bhi patli nahi lagti. Of course, Kishore, Hemant, Manna Dey ityadi ki awaaz zyada bhari hai to unke mukable aadmi Rafi ki awaaz ke bharipan (bass) ka andaza nahi laga pata. Saath hi Rafi ki awaaz meethi bhi thi. Aap jo female singers ke baare mein keh rahe hain woh maine bhi samanyataur par hote dekha hai (with exceptions). Maine note kiya hai ki zyadatar ladkiyon ki awaaz unche swaron mein karNavedhi (tez/shrill) lagti hai ya woh head voice mein gaana shuru kar deti hain parantu nichle swaron mein woh bahut hi araam se aur unke male counterparts se zyada harkatein aur komalta ya nazakat (delicacy) daal pati hain. To be safe, aapne jo notes kahen hai mai usse ek upar kehta kyonki on a good day maine kuch acchi singers ko tara mein “Ma” acche se khul kar hit karte suna hai. Mujhe to Lata aur Asha sabse acchi lagti hain – Lata to mahaan hain hi par Asha sabse versatile hain aur unke “westernized Alankaron” se mai bahut prabhavit hota hoon. Waise aaj mai Arghya se yeh baat kar raha tha ki Lata aur Kishore ka range zyada match karta hai chunki kishore bhi low bahut accha gaate hain.

    Mai aapse kuch sadaharaN baatein kahunga jinka arth aap jaisa jaankaar aadmi khud hi nikal lega:
    1) Rafi ke ganon mein aap “Mohabbat Zindabaad” sune. Yeh geet mujhe pasand hai, par isme aap aakhri ki iss line par dhyan den “…Woh Pathar Hai, Insaan Kahan…Zindabaad Zindabaad”. “Insaan” shabd par dhyan den aur phir jab woh chorus ke peeche “Mohabbat Zindabaad” kehte hain uspar gaur karen. Mai iske baare mein yahan charcha nahi karna chahta par aap samajh jayenge.
    2) “O Duniya Ke Rakhwaale” mein Rafi ne dusri baar “Bhagwaan” kaafi accha gaya tha. Saath hi Kishore ki awaaz ki bulandi Padosan ke inn do maSHoor geeton se bhi zahir hoti hain – “Meri Pyaari Bindu” ke ant mein jab woh “Bindu Re” kehna shuru karte hain aur “Chatur Naar” mein “Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Dha Heyy Heyyy Heyyyyy”. Aap dono ke high notes par gaur karen.
    3) Aap Manna Dey ka woh geet phir se sunenge to shayad samajh jayenge mai kya keh raha hoon – unhone high note steady aur lamba kheecha hai aur awaaz bhi tagadi hai. Uske saath mai samajhta hoon aapne Manna Dey ke semi-classical geet to sune hi honge. Tara mein jo note woh hit karte the unme woh bhi nipuN the aur kyonki unki classical/semi-classical ki jaankaari aur pakad zyada thi mere hisaab se woh ek zyada siDH gayak the. Versatile to woh the hi. Of course, unki awaaz bakiyon jitni filmy nahi thi. Playback singing ke liye filmy awaaz hona bahut zaroori hai aur usme Rafi, Kishore, etc. zyada aage the. Baat hoti hai range ki, jiska jo range hai woh usme apni shiksha aur guNon ke hisaab se apni ada mein bahut kuch kar sakta. Mere khayal se inn Hindi gayakon mein sabse praSHikSHit (trained) Manna Dey the aur sabse guNi (talented) the Kishore. Rafi dono ke beech ka ek behatareen balance the. Har aadmi ki apni soch hoti hai.

    Sabse zaroori baat apne kahi “…To main yehi bolunga ke talent sabhi mein hi hai magar samay samay ki baat hoti hai…”. Bilkul sahi baat hai, inn sabhi kalakaron ne (MD, singers, musicians, lyricists) hame kai anmol geet diye hain. Maine to uss forum mein sabse pehli baat hi yehi kahi thi ki yeh true voice hai kya? Yeh kehna ki Rafi har cheez mein sabse acche the (highest possible human range, best at classical, aadi-ityadi) bilkul galat hai. Inn saare gayakon ki apni khoobiyan thi, phir jisko jo accha lage woh usko sun le. Kishore khul kar shudh awaaz mein ga pate the, Rafi awaaz mein shahad si mithaas daalte tha, Manna Dey sur ke sabse pakke the – unki awaaz sunke pata chalta tha ki woh ek trained voice hai, Hemant ki apni mithaas aur flow thi, Talat ki apni mithaas aur vibrations, Mukesh ka kamaal ka pathos (“Dil Jalta Hai” gaana to mujhe bahut pasand hai) aur Mahender Kapoor ki awaaz meethi aur buland thi. Jin logon ko mai janta hoon woh to mahaul ke hisaab se alag-alag geet sunte hain aur sabhi ka anand lete hain.

    Arghya,
    Thanks for sharing your knowledge on Rabindra Sangeet. With my limited knowledge of the genre and from what I have heard, I do agree with you. I have heard that Hemant Kumar and Manna Dey were quite ahead in Bengali music with Hemant being extremely adept at Rabindra Sangeet. Of course, I did enjoy some of the Kishore songs you shared as well. My favorite Hemant song is “Tumi Robe Nirobe”. I have no clue as to what it means, but I have heard it umpteem number of times. I might actually just attempt to remember the lyrics at some point of time if I get a good translation.

    Vithal ji,
    I really enjoyed “Sundari Neevanti Divya Swaroopam”. It made me smile, especially the “haan”. Also, the expressions of both the artists on screen right from the beginning were awesome; taking a whiff of the flower, walking down the steps, etc. The actor reminded me of Kishore a little bit, for example what he does from 0:25 to 0:27, 0:42 to 0:52, etc. They have different styles, but I found him to be funny too. Ghantasala, well he is GREAT indeed. Does this tune remind anybody of some other song?

  215. 215
    arghya Says:

    Vitthalji..

    Loved the comedy song “Sundari..”, sir! The expressions in the words like “a-ha..”, “umm-hu” reminded me of Kishore.. During the last line that expression while calling out “sundari..” also was good.. The song did not sound that spontaneous in comedy as against the Kishore songs but I think Kishore was very special in that genre- something inherently funny within him- which of course, very one cannot have..

    It was an enjoyable song.. Now, at least we know Ghantashalaji had some good comic songs in his kitty as well..

    Request others also to contribute like this..

    This forum is getting interesting day by day, I must say..

  216. 216
    paramjeet Says:

    satyanshji,

    Bhai Bhanjana ke akaratmak taan pancham tak jaati hai tara mein.. Rafi sahab us se bhi 1 ya 2 notes tak upar gaye hai,,
    Hum teen vishayon ko ek saath discuss kare to theek hai:
    1. Swar hit karna.
    2. Swar hit karte samay voice texture pe impact padna.
    3. Swar sustain karna.

    Ab yeh teen alag alag pehluon pe aapka rai kya hai?? badhti umar ke saath saath swar pe jo asar padta hai us baare mein hum fir baat karenge..

  217. 217
    arghya Says:

    Paramjeet 216

    I think you have raised a very valid question here.. The three points are really important. Generally, when we discuss the range of a singer, we concentrate on the first part of it, whereas the gurus and musically deep people give stress to the other two points also ..

    I am not at all qualified to comment anything on this but I think it would be interesting what Satyansh takes on this..

  218. 218
    Vitthal Says:

    Satyansh ji,

    Greetings sir, I welcome you here, after a long time. Thanks for your appreciations on the great ghantasala and his renditions.

    Arghya ji & paramjeet ji & satyansh ji,

    Many thanks for your response. By the way, I am sorry, I think the song of ghantasala in post 153, which kishore fan provided, is not opening on some desktops, even I could notice that (It opened on my personal desktop but it did not open on my official desktop)

    Well, Arghya ji, this site has really really become interesting, crossing all language and other barriers as well, only music and music is being heard here. It is really amazing and nice to be associated continuously with nice individuals like you, who really appreciate music in its way. I am sure this site is creating an example for other sites specially in terms of music discussion and analysis.

  219. 219
    Vitthal Says:

    satyansh ji,

    Could you kindly confirm which was the highest note rafi had touched in zindabad zindabad; because i have heard from some musicians that the song basically starts from medium octave and zindabad higher rendition is in higher octave, the view basically was that it is not really difficult to sing a song starting in medium octave and going to higher octave, as only 2 octaves are covered. The real litmus test for a singer comes when a song starts in lower octave and goes to higher octave (covering all the 3 octaves). Even, it appears, the same is the case with o duniya ke rakhwale too. You had earlier mentioned that in siva sankari of ghantasala in the lower octave he is at dha note and in the highest octave he hits taara ni with beautiful taans sustaining at the highest note. Similarly, (out of curiosity) may I ask what highest note rafi ji had hit in zindabad zindabad and also in o duniya ke rakhwale – are the notes higher than the notes rendered by ghantasala in syamala dandakam as well (I think the highest possible sa note is touched in this) which you have mentioned in your website. Just wanted to know because rafi ji also sounds nice similar to the unique ghantasala in high pitches and in very high notes.

  220. 220
    paramjeet Says:

    satyansh ji,
    Zindabad zindabad maine suna..
    ‘woh patthar hai insaan kaha….’ aur uske baad chorus ke saath woh awaaz..

    Kya bolun is cheez ko? Chup hi rehta hoon… Aap pehle hi samajh gaye the, main ab samajh gaya hoon.. Maine pehle hi bola tha us zamane me dramatization ke liye logon se ‘extra’ karvaya jaata tha high pitch mein..yeh kuchh zyada hi extra tha..

    Mere last post mein dekhiyega maine kuchh sawal rakhe hai.. aap kya sochte hai bataiyega..

  221. 221
    paramjeet Says:

    Kapil sahab,

    Aap ne ek baar kaha tha Rafi forum mein Kishore ko tab gaali diya jaata hai jab koi murkh aake wahan pe chillata hai (aap hi ki bhasha mein bol raha hoon, jaise apne likha tha) ke kishoreji rafisahab se behetar gayak the.

    To maine aap ko poochha tha’bhaijaan, us hi hisaab se aap yahan kya bola rahe hai aur main kya kahoon aap hi bataiye..’ aap ne jawab nahi diya aur ab fir aa gaye pata nahi kya dekhke..

    Itni be sabri kyun hai bhai Kishore ko neecha dikhaane ki.. Technicality pe aaoge to aur bahut boore din dekhoge.. Low notes to kabhi sune nahi theek se, high notes pe ‘zindabad’ sunaake baatoon kya??

    Apne guruji ke gaane sun ke khush raho na aur khushi kam mile to Kishoredada ke comedy gaane to waise hi aapko pasand hai, woh sun liya karo, mast ho jaaoge ekdum.. Fir idhar aake khujli karne ki zaroorat hi nahi padegi..

  222. 222
    Kapil Says:

    Paramjeet Ji, glad you like the song, and hope you would listen it more and more … :-), anyways, if you listen carefully, Mukesh indeed kissed “Madhyam” in the word “Wo” from “Wo pyar ki ghadiyan…”, later he also hit “Gandharva” in the word “Sadayen” from “Aati hain kano mein mere kiski SADAYEN” .. this word “SADAYEN” itself has 3 notes, and the second one is “Gandharva” of Mandra-Saptak …

    I can provide many such examples, but hitting of notes doesn’t matter, what matters is how beautifully you hit that, and of course how well you emote, “Sur ki pakad” as you put it, and in that regard, Mukesh leads over Kishore in lower to mid octave, for sure. And if you closely look at Burmans use of Kishore, they used Kishore in Middle to High(Not too High), where Kishore strength lies, and also, just think as to why Salil Said Kishore style was more a pop oriented where no one could beat him.

    BTW, Aapko nahi lagta, jab Kishore Da Lime Light mein aaye, Sangeet us level ka nahi raha tha, jaisa hua karta tha, though i like 70’s music, but earlier three decades were more quality and melody oriented.

    And, just FYI, i like Kishore singing in other genres too than comedy, after all he was one of the greatest singers, we have ever had, but to me, Rafi and Lata were finest of all.

    ——————–

    Arghya,

    “Koi hum dum na raha” is a great song, i have no problems with this song, however i used those superlative terms w.r.t. something else, as Kishore trying to ape SD or Saigal,to me, is like Sudesh Bhosle trying to ape Kishore. KLS/SDB was king of his trade, and why only Kishore, i don’t like others also, trying to ape Saigal, like CH Aatma, though CH Aatma was a very good singer and Kishore was a great singer.

  223. 223
    unknow1 Says:

    hi paramjeet ji,

    I am a rafi lover. I was literally laughing on the discussions going on in this site. Really it is comedy type or funny like kishore kumar himself. Ghantasala fans are appreciating kishore bengali songs and Kishore fans are appreciating ghantasala telugu songs. What a fun. Big comedy is neither understands the other’s language but start praising each other in a great way. (To really appreciate a song good knowledge of language is a must) Woh, what bigger comedy will be more than this – this a real fun – exactly fitting kishore kumar. I was really rolling on the ground when i saw the numerous posts – really ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

    Just go to the rafi forum and see how well the discussions are going on. Rafi forum is a mighty mountain like rafi himself as compared to this tiny ant hill forum.

    Never try to say anything against rafi – for the reason because rafi cannot be surpassed (of course ghantasala I too have heard – he is alone unique by virtue of his technical ability which is certainly ahead of rafi & sure in some renditions he alone surpasses rafi – more so in classical type filmy songs) but Mr. Paramjeet, kishore being compared to rafi is a real fun. A king is always a king. Rafi was the king of bollywood singing and he will remain forever.

  224. 224
    arghya Says:

    Kapil 222 post.
    You have not answered my points at all..

    You firstly said to Paramjeet: ” By the way, Mujhe samjhaiyega ki “Koi hum dum na raha” mein Kishore sahab ki low notes clarity ka kaise pata chalta hai? kya is song ka koi aur bhi version hai jo low notes mein composed hai ..:-P”

    With that comment, 15 minutes of time were wasted and I had to sit on the keyboard again to confirm a thing I know since ages.. Then in case, you still did not understand, I pasted a rarest of rare song of the original version only to show you the scale modifications which Kishore did..

    You did not reply to that..

    Forget about aping and all.. We are not on that ground at all.. I can give many songs where other singers were aping Kishore also in mannerism, and they were all legendary singers also..

  225. 225
    paramjeet Says:

    kapilji
    Post 222
    Aap ne kaha ‘ Mukesh indeed kissed madhyam’
    Main bolta hoon ‘Kishore not only kissed but also sustained madhyam in saghana gahana raatri’

    Mera aakhri post pade Satyanshji ke liye – maine range par teen prashna rakhe hai , agar aap ko sangeet aati hai Kapilji to aap bhi samjhenge..sur touch karna ek cheez hai aur usko touch karte time voice stability aur fir sur ko sustain karna dusri cheez.. Range usi mein hai..

    Burmans ki baat aapne kyun layi pata nahi… RD Burman ke liye ek behetareen low octave gana(madhyam hitting and sustainance with voice clarity at the age of 53) gaya tha Kishore ne..

    Aap ko jo pasand hai aap sune, 60s ho ya 50s ya jo bhi… kishoreda ne 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s sabhi daur mein behetareen gaane gaaye hai(humare hisaab se) ..commercial success dusri baat hai.. Technically baat karein to usi mein rahiyen..

    Mere aakhri post ke liye kshama chahta hoon.. Bhabuk ho gaya tha..krupaya ignore karein use.. Aap yahan music discuss karein achhi baat magar apna dimaag aur kaan khula rakhke..na ke biased hoke..

    Aur haan, koi humdum na raha ke notes likh liye aap ne?

  226. 226
    satyansh Says:

    Guys, first of all a disclaimer again – I do not consider myself to be qualified to speak about these legends at all. These are just my opinions based upon what I have learnt and I started sharing them only because of the false-notions propagated by a certain group of people. Qualified people are ones like Surajit, Khan, Paramjeet, Arghya, Vithal, Lalit, Srivas, etc. and those who teach music. I am just a student and a listener. As Arghya knows, I don’t even have many songs and I mostly talk from memory. So all that follows is simply my opinion.

    Paramjeet ji,
    Aapke teen pehloo yeh darshate hain ki aapne meri baaton ka saransh bilkul nikal liya hai. Mujhe kuch kehna bhi nahi pada :-).

    Points (1) aur (2) to hum sab samajh gaye hain aur bekaar mein iss baat par charcha nahi karenge. Yeh keval jaankaari ke liye tha, hame doosron ki tarah kissi ke baare mein bura kehne ki koi zaroorat nahi hai. Mai janta tha aap sab jaankaar hain aur samajh jayenge.

    Points (1) and (2) led into (3) aur uske baare mein maine Post 214 mein kaha tha. Aapne phir bilkul sahi baatein ki. Of course, swar hit karne ke saath gayak ki awaaz mein zyada badlav bhi nahi aana chahiye. I believe that as you move towards the opposite ends of ones range, you will notice “some” change in most peoples voice – it is only natural and it varies from person to person. Voice gets heavier as it gets lower and thinner on the higher notes – how thin and where it starts thinning depends on how much “non-nasal bass” you can output, etc. Sustain karne ke to bahut phayde hain, par aadmi iske bagair bhi kuch gaa sakta hai. For example, drut laya mein taan lete waqt ek unche note ko chookar (touch/kiss) aa jaye ya gaate samay keval ek quick svar upar laga le. Ye karna bhi mushkil hai par iske liye shayad sustain karna itna zaroori nahi hai. Waise yadi aadmi solid range dekhe to mai kahunga usme wohi notes hone chahiye jisme yeh teenon pehloo fit baithte hon aur yeh keval modal register se nikle notes hon. Isme Hindi geeton ke liye falsetto register (jiske Hindi music mein sartaj Kishore the) ya whistle register use nahi karna chahiye. Steady hone ke saath mai isme ek aur “sub-pehloo” add karunga aur woh hai harkatein. Yeh bhi dekhna chahiye ki kya gayak uss svar par head, chest, etc. voices mein gaa sakta hai, awaaz kitni khuli rehti hai, etc. Issi liye maine Manna Dey ke baare mein kaha ki “…Tara mein jo note woh hit karte the unme woh bhi nipuN the aur kyonki unki classical/semi-classical ki jaankaari aur pakad zyada thi mere hisaab se woh ek zyada siDH gayak the… Playback singing ke liye filmy awaaz hona bahut zaroori hai aur usme Rafi, Kishore, etc. zyada aage the…”. Aur saath hi X-factor (very subjective) ki bhi baat hai aur usme to mere hisaab se Kishore sabse aage the. On these lines, if we now think about Lata and Asha we realize one of the many reasons they were so great. Aap gaur karen ki jiss female awaaz ko Hindi geeton mein tez samjha jata hai woh kai prakaar ke non-Hindi geeton mein use hoti hai. Hum keval Hindi sugam sangeet ki baat kar rahe hain. Also, I will further elaborate why I believe simply hitting a note is not important for the purpose of our discussion by requesting you to listen to Charles Kellogg, Adam Lopez, etc. Inn do namo ka zikar maine pehle bhi uss dusri site mein kiya tha jab log kehte ki Rafi ka super-human range tha jo koi aadmi touch nahi kar sakta tha lol. People can hit notes much lower and higher than the singers we are talking about, but we should not confuse that with them being better singers, atleast not Hindi film singers since that is what we are talking about. Also, just for the sake of knowledge, I would encourage people to hear some of Mariah Carey’s songs in the whistle register (I don’t believe she does that anymore) and then also hear Whitney Houston who has a much more powerful voice in my opinion.

    As a side note, according to me, if people have round-about the same range, it does not really matter much if one can hit a couple of higher notes and the other can hit a couple of lower notes. It is more important to see what they can do in their range aur unki sur par pakad kitni hai, voice culture kaisa hai, etc. One can try to adjust the song to the singer’s scale. Of course, this does not always work as many compositions simply don’t sound as good on a different scale. Maine to dekha hai ki kuch log practice karte samay 2-3 extra notes hit karne ka prayatna karte hain (do upar aur ek neeche) jabki logon ke saamne unn notes par gaate nahi :-). Aur dheere dheere karke phir gala khul bhi jata hai aur woh note gayak ke repertoire mein add ho jata hai.

    Vithal ji,
    Rafi sustained a “Dha” in tara is all I would say. I would like to refrain from commenting much on the highest note in that song and I hope you’d understand why. Contrary to what some people might have said, I think it is a very difficult song to sing at that scale simply because not many sing at that scale. One could start singing at a lower key (lower the “Sa”) and it would probably be easier. Rafi’s voice had good bass and that is why he could carry that song at that scale. Even the way Rafi says “Ishq” in “Ishq Bagawat Kar Baithe To” is outstanding. He says it like a rebel, simply beautiful. I would just request you to listen to the aspects I pointed out in the earlier posts and you’ll get the point towards the end of the song. Overall I love the “feel” of the song and don’t want to get into that detail since people get the drift. The point that the qualified musicians that you spoke to might have made is that you can change the scale of less than 2 octave songs to your “Sa” and that would make them easier (not easy, but easier). Obviously, you can’t do that with Ghantasala’s number since it covers a wider range of notes and a singer just has to have a wider range. I don’t believe it is fair to compare Ghantasala to Rafi. Ghantasala is in a different league. There are a couple of points people could make that are not in favor of Ghantasala, however, they are very few indeed and I don’t want to discuss that either. Every singer has their strengths and overall he is indeed GREAT. I would request you to continue to share more songs of Ghantasala especially in the comedy genre – if you could write a post with his comedy songs that would be awesome. Based upon the type of melodious music back in the day, would Ghantasala have songs in the “experimental RDB” mould?

    While both Rafi numbers are great, I rate “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale” marginally better than “Zindabaad” and it has more room to play with. I brought it up in point (2) earlier to highlight how beautifully Rafi rendered the second Bhagwaan amongst other things. I would have loved to hear him sing a note lower since the beautiful composition does allow for that and I wonder what it would sound like in Rafi’s sweet voice. Could anyone speculate and/or tell me why he didn’t sing it a note lower? I wonder because in the end he is beautifully singing “Rakhwaale, Rakhwaale, Rakhwaale”, he could simply have added one more “Rakhwaale” in the end as he possibly did in a live version to keep that beauty alive. I would have really liked to hear it that way too. Request Arghya and everybody to share thoughts on this. Surajit ji, we would love to see you partake in the discussion.

  227. 227
    Vitthal Says:

    Satyansh ji,

    Thanks sir for your post. Surajit ji’s participation would certainly be an interesting picture here. Even many rafi fans were not able to comment on zindabad zindabad, o duniya ke rakhwale & another song subah na aayee etc. . I think Mr. Khan in rafi forum stated that in all the above songs of rafi the highest notes are relatively lower than the highest sa note in tara octave. With great due respects to Mr. Khan, i would like to hear more on the highest notes from Mr. Surajit as well.

    On RDB’s experimental songs, could you list out some extraordinary numbers of kishore – so that I can try to share some ghantasala songs in that experimental league. This is because, I think many of the songs are not in you tube, but in other links, for which access too has become difficult. Therefore, if some specific songs are listed, i can try to share them, as searching for songs also have become difficult.

  228. 228
    Vitthal Says:

    Satyansh ji,

    There are some links here, for your views please. First one is typical melody number (audio quality is not that great needs improvement, but you would get overall view)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6AJ0bmcTn8

    These songs I have shared earlier with Arghya ji, which I wanted to share with you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEQHfH812fs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Zi5Cxu4Gc

    For your views satyansh ji.

  229. 229
    satyansh Says:

    Vithal ji,

    There is no problem in telling you what note Rafi hit. I am not sure why Rafi fans were not able to give you that information, maybe they know what we are talking about ;). I am certain that Rafi sustained a “Dha” in tara and that is all I would say, you have to get the drift. I don’t want to stir up anything. I think you did not get what I said because you didn’t hear that part of the song and I am not saying it directly, but rather requesting you to figure out when you hear the song. You would get it as soon as you hear it. Paramjeet ji and Arghya ji get what I am saying. Please hear the song.

    I haven’t heard “Subah Na Aayee” in a while, I don’t remember it being as high as Zindabaad. Are you talking about the lines “…Doori Hai” and “Aa Jao”? Maybe we are talking about different songs. Also, Zindabaad is higher than Rakhwaale, but again you have to hear Zindabaad (after the parts I mentioned earlier) and read between the lines.

    Ghantasala did sing with much more ease, if that helps you understand what I am saying without having to say it :-).

    Arghya and Paramjeet would certainly be better placed to share RDB songs.

    Surajit, you are in demand.

  230. 230
    Vitthal Says:

    Satyansh ji,

    Thanks for the information, I got it. Fully agree with you on ghantasala as well ( it need not be mentioned, it is known)

  231. 231
    paramjeet Says:

    Vitthalji baat ko nahi samjhe..
    Sir, woh line jo mention kiya aur uske baad mein chorus mein se jo awaaz aati hai ‘zindabad zindabad..’ usko sune..sun ne ke baad samajh jaye to bas bol dijiyega samajh gaye hai aur kuchh nahi:)
    Satyanshji , apki baaton se main sahmat hoon kaafi had tak.. Lataji aur Ashaji ke upar aapka observations bhi acha hai.. Range hi sirf ek kalakaar ki pehchaan nahi hai, aur bhi bahut saari chhezein hai.. Low and high notes pe awaaz badalnewali baat bhi theek hai..jo jitna nasal hai woh utna shrill lagega high notes par.
    Mere hisaab se notes sustainence zyada important hai notes hit karna hi nahi.. of course voice stability ke saath..

    Badhti umar ki baat maine is liye ki kyunki-
    * har gayak ka comfort range hota hai jahan par woh naturally travel kar sakta hai.. Kuchh notes upar aur kuchh notes neeche woh control sikhta hai riyaaz ke zariye.. Magar woh uska natural range nahi hai.. Jab umar badhti hai to practised notes pe clarity kam ho jaati hai aur notes hit karne mein bhi taqlif.. Jo gayak umar ke saath saath jo jo notes pe control lose nahi karta woh naturally us octaves mein belong karta hai..

    Kishore Kumar ka 50 saal ke baad bhi udara saptak mein madhyam hit karna aur sustain karna yehi prove karta hai woh ‘naturally us octave mein belong karte the’.. bas isi liye maine woh age wali baat bhi kahi thi aur bola ke main baad mein charcha karunga…

  232. 232
    paramjeet Says:

    aur ek cheez bolna chahunga ‘voice stability’ ke upar..

    Jab aap koi high notes ya low notes hit karte hai to yeh kalakar ko dhyan rakhna chahiye ke sunnewalon ko yeh pata nahi lagna chahiye zyada high ya low notes hit ho rahe hai.. In the sense,, ek voice uniformity maintained hona chahiye..

    Kishore jab low notes pe pancham ya madhyam tak bhi hit karte the to unki voice texture change nahi hoti thi jab ki anya gayak ‘dha’ tak bhi jaye to samajh mein aa jata hai ‘bhai low ha rahe hai’… Yeh bhi ek kamaal ki baat hai.. Magar yeh tab pata chalega jab aap notes sustainance ko dekhe.. Jaise Satyanshji bole, notes chhu kar hi wapas aa jaane se is baat ki mahatva samajh mein nahi aayegi..

  233. 233
    Anil Says:

    Some nice debates and that’s why I’m here. I agree with Paramjeet on the high-low notes issues.. hitting, sustaining and sounding good/cool/relaxed is the real test. Agree with him again on the ‘natural scale’ thing and the changes it undergoes with the singers’ age. However can’t agree fully on the natural scale as well as the low-note mastery of Kishore especially vis-a-vis Rafi. Baritone Kishore Vs Tenor Rafi is more of a myth. Both the singers have more or less the same natural scale. Rafi’s is slightly higher and his absolute range was also higher. In his early days, Rafi could hit a low pa (g#2) and was quite comfortable at low dha (a2). Kishore did hit the low pa (g2) in his youth rather coolly and I believe he could have gone another full note down (f2) with some effort. Once into their mid- late ’40s, both the singers were much more comfortable in the middle-high notes. Kishore, though could still hit a low pa, his voice wasn’t too pleasant when he hit them. The strain is quite obvious is ‘koi hota..’ and even in ‘mere naina…’. The voice wasn’t exactly well-defined when he hit that low pa in ‘pyar humein…’. Rafi wasn’t getting anything in the low notes post 70 but when he did try something, he was not very far from Kishore of the ’70s. He was quite good in ‘boonde nahin sitare..’ (low ni) and in his live shows he could manage a reasonable low dha when he sang ‘man tarpat..’ and ‘duniya ke rakhwale…’.
    To me Kishore’s best notes would be from about mid ri (d3) to high sa (c4) and Rafi’s would be mid ga (e3) to high ma (f4). I like Kishore best when he sings medium high notes with his no-holds barred style and not when he croons the low-notes.
    By the way, would anyone care to tell me what’s the big secret with ‘zindabad..’. Are you implying that someone was supporting Rafi when he sang the line following the chorus or that he wasn’t sounding okay?

  234. 234
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,
    Apne sahi kaha, badthi umar aur riyaaz nahi karne se problems aati hain. Hum sabne shayad logon ko apne range mein bhi zyada vibrate hote suna hai. Par woh to umar ka pher hai. Stage par gaane se bhi awaaz mein antar aata hai aisa maine suna hai. I feel up until a certain age people can keep getting better as far as singing is concerned if they practice.

    Vithal ji,
    I loved “Rasika Raja …” the most. Thank you for sharing.

    I’d request input from all on the following two items for a change of topic:
    First up, … Arghya had asked the following question earlier and I am putting it hear to see what others think. The question is:
    Which of the following five generations of MDs do you like Kishore the most with? I would request you guys to elaborate on what genres you feel Kishore explored more with the different MDs and the reason(s) for your choice.
    1st Generation- Khemchand Prakash, Anil Biswas etc.
    2nd Generation- SD Burman,SJ,Madan Mohan,Salil etc.
    3rd Generation- RD Burman,LP,KA,Ravindra Jain etc.
    4th Generation- RajeshRoshan, Bappi, Anu Malik etc.
    5th Generation- Anand Milind,Nadeem Shravan etc.

    Secondly, maybe we can ask simple questions such as these – one category at a time. Who is your favorite singer for songs of intoxication (keval sharab ke nashe waale gaane)?

  235. 235
    satyansh Says:

    Anil,
    I am not sure if you are the same Anil from the other site, but you are more than welcome to share your knowledge in a courteous manner. Also glad to see you liked the discussions. Hopefully, this round would not result in unpleasantries.

    I do agree that Kishore sounds best in middle-high notes in his open flowy voice. It is one of my favorite voices. I like Rafi’s middle-high octave songs too. His voice is exceptionally sweet in many of them, and I feel SDB made real good use of that.

    While you did get the point that we are making with regards to notes from the modal register, do you think you are selling both singers short? Yes, it is true that both Kishore and Rafi (as also Manna Dey) have an almost similar natural scale, a few notes here and there; and that is why I had to request clarification from Paramjeet ji to see if he was talking about simply hitting a note because there is more to it :). I feel that at the notes they hit it is about how nipuN (adept) they are in their range amongst other things (one of the reasons why I tend to lean towards Manna Dey as a singer – playback is different :)). No discussions on Manna Dey now though. I would request you to listen to the songs mentioned in [point (2) post 214] and since you already see that Rafi sounded comfortable with the low notes; share your thoughts on Kishore’s comfort-level with the high notes. Obviously, you can tell us what notes they hit. Also, was it higher than what you said Kishore sounded comfortable in?

    You said that Kishore croons in the lower notes. Is it really possible to croon in the lower notes if you can’t touch them or are not comfortable in those notes? One can croon or go into head voice when singing high notes, but I feel that the voice naturally gets deeper and it becomes unsteady and unclear as you sing lower. Are you confusing Kishore’s “CHaani hui awaaz” (“Ek Ajnabee Haseena Se”, “Roop Tera Mastana”, etc.) with him hitting low notes? He used that voice pretty much in the middle octave as I believe it is very difficult to sing in that voice in the lower scale, and if he did (you’d need to give examples), I would honestly be even more amazed at Kishore’s genius. Clarify what you mean by crooning in the lower notes where a person is not comfortable. Also, I felt he was very steady and clear in “Koi Hota Jisko Apna” and the vibrations were natural to him. Could you give examples of Rafi hitting a low Pa? While “Boondein Nahin Sitare” is a fine song, I don’t feel it is a good example of hitting the low notes. Rafi has done much better himself.

    I hope others don’t say anything about “Zindabaad” either. You can pay attention to the parts mentioned in [point (1) post 214] and be the judge. Everybody is free to interpret. No one is maligning any singer here, so don’t be concerned about that.

    Paramjeet ji,
    Apne kaha aap meri baaton se kaafi had tak sehmat the. Aap agar meri kissi baat se sehmat nahi aur mai agar kuch galat likhun to kripya bejhijhak usse sudharen :). Waise janab, aapse poochna yeh tha ki kya apne kissi ko Hindi cinema mein whistle register mein gaate suna hai? Mujhe lagta hai Kishore ka ek geet ya ek movie thi jisme unhone ek ajeeb awaaz nikali thi whistle register se. Aapko yaad ho to bataiyega. If Arghya or anybody else remembers it please do let me know.

    Vithal ji,
    If you have any examples of people singing in the whistle register in Telugu cinema, please do share. I need to check something.

    Arghya,
    Who sang “Tune Abhi Dekha Nahi” for Shashi Kapoor’s “baithi-hui” awaaz in the movie “Do Aur Do Paanch”? Was it all Kishore?

  236. 236
    arghya Says:

    Anil Post 232.

    Warm welcome..Your view on natural and absolute scales of both the legends are very appreciative. For Rafi, you said:

    1. Natural scale of Rafi: Mid ‘ga’ to high ‘ma’ with absolute scale higher. Yes, even I feel so, his absolute scale is somewhere at ‘dha’ on the high.

    2. Natural scale of kishore: Mid ‘re’ to high ‘sa’. You did not mention about absolute scale.

    Whereas I agree with your viewpoint on Rafi although I find him quite natural in mid’re’ or ‘sa’ also.. Yes, even till his later years.. No issues there..

    Coming to Kishore, I am quite sure his natural scale is two notes down than you mentioned and two notes higher than you mentioned. It is a low “dha” to high “ga”..

    You said://” The voice wasn’t exactly well-defined when he hit that low pa in ‘pyar humein” .// It is not ‘pa’ it is upto ‘ma’.. And as Paramjeet said he did not sound like hitting so low.. Also giving a touch of Amitabh’s mannerism in such a depth is quite a stunner for me, Anil.

    You said://” Kishore, though could still hit a low pa, his voice wasn’t too pleasant when he hit them. The strain is quite obvious is ‘koi hota..’ and even in ‘mere naina…’. //

    “Koi hota” is not only bacause of the low notes Anil. It is more challenging because of the asymmetric order of notes which Salil arranged.. Listen to the Mukhda:

    ko-i ho-ta jis-ko a-p-na . It progresses like:(all Majors)
    ga-dha sa-ni dha-ni sa-ni-dha

    So, in start of mukhda you have hopping notes in medium to high octave.

    Now, towards the end of mukhda

    le-kin koi-i me-ra ap-na
    sa-ni sa-ni sa-sa dha-pa

    In one mukhda altogether, Anil, you can see the notes hopping from mid ‘ga’ to high ‘sa’ and then suddenly after the line “paas nahi to door hi hota” it comes down and spends substantial time on the lower register as low as “pa”.. In the antara it goes as high as high “ga” also( koi dilasa hota..), just listen that will also show Kishore being very much natural upto “ga” on third also.. He has ventured higher than that also, but that case, I would agree more with you as to an “absolute measure” but not a “natural meausure”..

    You said :// “Kishore did hit the low pa (g2) in his youth rather coolly and I believe he could have gone another full note down (f2) with some effort.”//

    No, Anil, he could hit a “ma” as coolly as ever. Read Paramjeet’s post carefully as he has already explained and listen to the song recorded at the age of 52 by him.

    Now, these two songs just see where Kishore starts:

    1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLL_MbcHBFM&feature=PlayList&p=63108264AB4A298E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4

    Recorded in 1953. Age around 24.

    2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ2z8lG_8II

    Recorded in 1974. age around 45.

    “dha” on the lowest Kishore originally belonged Anil not absolutely..
    Also the same for high “ga”

    Thanks again for the post..

    Cheers.!!

  237. 237
    paramjeet Says:

    anilji,
    Pehli baat to yeh ki hindi filmon mein ek gayak ka low notes control pe zyada explorations nahi hua hai.. Generally us octave ke gaane screen pe us zamane mein zyada fit nahi baithta tha.. jitne bhi gaane hue hai woh bhi khaas kar ke bengali composers ka compose kiya hua(anil biswas, salil, hemant, burmans).. Kyunki bangali music jitna mujhe arghyaji ki baaton se samajh mein aaya hai, traditionally lowest octave pe control aurr sustainence zyada demand karta hai.. Rabindra sangeet ke jo list arghyaji ne share kiye hai woh suniyega to bhi aapko pata chalega.. 1-2 gaane chhodke, baaki sabhi mein low notes hitting aur sustainence kaafi obvious hai..

    Rafi sahab ka range jo aapne bola maine thoda bahut usi mein charcha kiya tha..

    Kishoreda ke range pe aapki view mujhe thoda biased laga..
    1. Koi hota jisko apna mein low notes hitting pe aapne kaha aapko voice texture achhi nahi lagi.. But us gaane mein mujhe stability koi problem nazar nahi aaya.. Jaise arghyaji bole in fact us gaane mein low octave sustainence ek bada test tha.. Main sochta tha yeh gaana mukeshji ko kyun nahi diya gaya? Jabki mukeshji ka lowest octave control bhi achha tha aur mukeshji salilda ke natural choice hua karte the na ke kishoreda.. Koi producer pressure bhi nahi honi chahiye kyunki mukeshji usi movie mein ek dusra gaana bhi gaye hai aur salil chowdhury ya gulzar koi bhi compromising log nahi the.. Yeh sawal ka jawab hi hai SUSTAINENCE, anilji mere hisaab se.. Is gaane mein lowest octave bhi sustain karna padta hai aur highest bhi.. yeh gaane mein teen cheezein hai:

    1. Notes sustainence(high aur low dono)
    2. Spontaneous switching of notes(jaise arghyaji ne bola bahut hi asymmetric notes hai)
    3. Proper conveyance of feel. Khuli awaaz mein.

    Rafi sahab low ‘pa’?? Woh bhi sustainence aur voice texture change na karte hue? thoda substantiate kariyega pl..

    Kishoreda udara saptak mein madhyam tak bahut hi normal the.. Koi effort to nazar nahi aaya mujhe.. Haan highes mein ‘ga’ ke aage kabhi kabhar laga zaroor hai.. Magar stayanshji ka bhi kaafi valid point hai.. Padosan ke woh gaane pe aapka kya khayal hai anilji??

  238. 238
    arghya Says:

    Satyansh 233.
    Yes, I had asked that question some time back in another forum. As Kishore Kumar has seen five generations of Music Directors coming ruling and going in his career of 40 years. Some appreciative, some accolading, some overwhelming and some not that receptive.

    1 st generation:

    Here , we are talking of Khemchand Prakash, Naushad, Anil biswas,Husnlal Bhagatram etc. I think it is a mixed bag here. As KP was one of the earliest admirers of Kishore, Naushad was real resistant. The toughest of them all not to at all accept Kishorian singing till his last days..But surprisingly, Naushad was again a disciple of Khemchand Prakash- the admirer of Kishore singing.. If Lata is to be believed, then it was KP and not SD, who actually cultivated the non-Saigalish singing in Kishore spending hours together.

    Four of my all time most favourite Kishore songs hail from 1 st generation, viz, Jagmag jagmag karta nikla chand(KP), Husn bhi hai udaas udaas(AB), Aa mohabbat ki basti(AB) and Woh meri taraf yun chale aa rahe hai(HB). Anil Biswas was not using that much Kishore, but he later admitted itwas more so because of public’s non acceptance of Kishorian style of signign those days. He was very staisfied with the singing of Kishore for him in Fareb.. KP’s untimely death in 1950 was a major setback for Kishore’s singing career, I would have loved to see more exploration of Kishore from KP..

    2nd Generation:

    This is the generation from which Kishore got maximum resistance. While SD, C Ramchandra and to some extent Hemant were appreciative enough to hand him over great melodies, the younger group of Madan, OP, Salil, Roshan, Shankar Jaikishen, Chitragupta were highly resistive. Salil did change his views later, so did Shankar,Chitragupta and Jaikishen. OP refused. It was a mixed bag again, as this is the only generation which raised questions on Kishore’s technical competence also.. But as Salil put later” We all were wrong.. It is Dada Burman to whom should go the credit of identifying the glimpse of genius in this boy which we all ignored unknowingly that time”..
    Many of my all time favourite Kishore songs lie in this generation.. I dont know where to put Kishore himself as a MD though.. I would put him in third generation going by chronology..

    3 rd Generation:

    This is the generation which accoladed and embraced singer Kishore and made him prosper with experimentation, variation, challenges and metamorphing him into a complete singer. Goes the credit to Kishore Kumar himself( Jhumroo, DGKCM, DKR), R D Burman, Kalyanji Anandji and Laxmikant Pyarelal. Ravindra Jain, Usha Khanna, Shyamal Mitra, Basu Manohari, Sapan Jagmohan all chipped in between to give some of their all time bests to Kishore. Contribution wise, the third generation MDs were Kishore Kumar MDs.. When Bhupen Hazarika, Shivkumar Sharma and Hariprasad Chaurasia etc. ventured selectively into film music, they could think of Kishore only..

    Lata Mangeshkar composed two songs for Kishore..

    4th Generation:

    They could not breathe without Kishore.. They made their debut in mid 70s and for all their good, not so good or ugly compositions also, to make them popular- they needed that voice. As Rajesh Roshan says in the documentory “Zindagi ek Safar”(latest renewed version), he felt like embracing Kishore during the recording of “Dil Kya Kare..” when his mother said “dont do, he will feel disturbed”..But Junior Roshan rushed and embraced Kishore after recording and then ventured into an association with a singer whom his father had rejected after trying out in four movies 22 years back.. Bappi lived and breathed on Kishore.. With Kishore’s death, Bappi soon faded.. Nobody could convert those mediocre compositions into chartbusters than Kishore.. Some may look at it in abad way, some good, but it was a talent that Kishore could turn stones into jewels..

    5th Generation

    They had very few times to work with Kishore. But songs like “Zindagi hai tadapna” for Chandru or “Apno mein main begana” for Annu or ” Maine tumse kuchh nahi maanga” for Rajkamal showed given some time, they would have in long term grabbed that pillar called Kishore to grow up also.

    Thanks.

  239. 239
    paramjeet Says:

    arghyaji 235

    Kya gaaana hai bhai woh! Jo uttam kumar pe picturize kiya hai!! Uske hindi version ke liye kishoreda popular hai, magar kya zabardast hai yaar yeh bangla wala!

    Mujhe ek labz bhi samajh mein nahi aaya.. Magar ek gaane mein bol hi kaafi nahi hai, woh feeling, woh depth! Thanks bhai.. Aapse kishoreda ke un pehluon ka pata chala jo main jaanta bhi nahi tha..

    dil aesa ksisne mera toda ek behetareen gana hai, magar is gaane ki to baat hi nairaali hai.. Dusre anatare pe jab guruji high mein jaate hai, kya feelings hai bhai! Main bahut subjective lag raha hoon par kya karein..

    Is gaane ke baare mein thoda details mein batayein..

  240. 240
    arghya Says:

    Paramjeet 238

    Nice you liked the song.. Although the song was posted by me to show something else, your emotional reply to this song really proves music is not at all bound in languages…

    Yes, Paramjeet , there is a whole story going behind this. It is just a story and no trivia. The year was 1974 and Shakti Samanta planned to do “Amanush” with a Bong and a Hindi version.. He chose people who could adept to the regional and national audience properly like Uttam and Sharmila in lead roles, Shyamal Mitra as the Music Director and Kishore as the lead playback singer. Kishore agreed to do 5 out of 6 songs( 3 in Hindi and 2 in Bengali) except this one.. He said ” I wont sing this, Shyamal Babu(Shyamal mitra), you please sing this yourself”.. Shyamal was taken aback initially and said” No, Kishoreda( this is a great relationship they used to share, as Shyamal babu told after Kishoreda’s death, Kishore used to call him “babu” and he used to address him as “da”), this is not a Hindi movie where multiple singers can give playback to a single hero.. This is a Bengali movie, audience wont accept this, you only have to sing”

    People say, the resistance came from Kishore because the wordings of this song “Ki ashay badhi khelaghar badhi khelaghar bedonaar baluchore” resembled very closely to Kundan Lal Saigal’s Bengali version ” Badhinu michhe ghar bhuler baluchore” from Desher Mati(1938).. Which would have resulted in comparison which Kishore detested always.. The tempo of both the songs also being similar..( I have been searchig for this Saigal song for a long time, but still could not get)

    Whatever, Kishore took around 2 weeks of time and then while flying back to Kolkata from Bomaby in the flight, he thought out of a tune – slightly modifying the original( again I think bringing it down nearer to the lowest register) and afetr landing, when he went to the studio he sang it to Shyamal. Shyamal was astounded and immediately changed the whole musical of the song and recorded just the way Kishore had amended it..

    During the release of the film, Shyamal insisted Kishore’s name to be put in jointly as the music director of the film to which Kishore bluntly refused saying “Sab kaaj to apni i korechhen, aami to shudhu kichhu add korechhi”( You have done the entire stuff, what I did was just to add something..).. This is Kishore Kumar for you, Paramjeet.. Who knows how many ghost compositions he had made for the Burmans…

    This song is a milestone in Bong movies.. You need not know the language to understand the feelings, the depth and the sincerity with which Kishore had renderd this..

    And of course, technicalities are very well there.. lol…

  241. 241
    Anil Says:

    Arghya:
    I didn’t really spell out the natural scale of the singers; I was speaking about the ‘best’ notes (notes at which they are most pleasant to hear). The absolute range for Rafi at prime would be 2 octaves plus 1-2 full notes and Kishore at prime would be 1-2 full notes short of 2 octave range.
    About ‘koi hota…’, I wasn’t referring to the strain while switching notes, I have no issues with Kishore there; actually he did them very well. But does he sound his best in the ‘lekin hoi mera apna…’ part? Or shall I ask in a different way, would Kishore have sounded the same had he sung it in ’62 rather than ’72 (I hope I’m correct about the year). Ditto with ‘mere naina..’. In the scale the song was set, Kishore would have (purely from a singing angle) done a better job in ’65. Let me make it clear; I’m not actually comparing Kishore of ’70s to Rafi of ’70s. My points are that the ‘bottom’ of both these singers’ had been affected by the age and the wear and tear factors though their respective highs were pretty much in tact and that ‘Kishore ruled low notes and Rafi high notes’ is too much generalisation. About ‘pyar humein..’ I stick to my stance. I don’t believe Kishore would have sounded different at ‘le aayaa-aa-aa’ had it been, say Rishi Kapoor on screen. I agree the effort is worth a big applause considering his age and the fact that he wasn’t singing much at the low registers at that point of time.

  242. 242
    Anil Says:

    Paramjeetji:
    My Hindi is not the kind to try out in public forums.. but I understand it well enough, so you have to excuse me for posting in English. I am not a neutral music follower/ lover. I have my favourites in all the different forms of music I follow. In HFM, Rafi is my all-time favourite male singer followed by Talat Mehmood and Manna Dey. I like Mukesh as well. I certainly like to listen to Kishore and it is him (and these days Mukesh too) that I turn to when I feel like listening to something ‘different’. If this all makes me a biased music fan I have no issues wearing that cap.
    It is nice discussing music with someone as well-trained as you are and actually we two are mostly speaking the same things. I am yet to listen to the songs Satyansh mentioned but I think I know the songs already. I will surely listen to them and come back with my views.
    Speaking of ‘koi hota..’, I don’t consider it an average effort; it is quite good. The voice is stable and the texture is not affected much in the lower notes. But it is not appealing (to my ears) as the voice in say ‘pyar deewana hota hai….’ or ‘pal pal dil ke paas..’. It may be because I have listened to some brilliant low-note singing from the South Indian Film music, especially by K.J.Yesu Das. Remember again, I am comparing Kishore with Kishore; Kishore of low notes Vs Kishore of medium to high notes and Kishore of ’70s to Kishore of ’50s/’60s.

  243. 243
    arghya Says:

    Anil. Post 240.

    Ok, so, I made an understanding problem regarding your take on absolute scales. But if your definiton is to be believed, Anil, then I would disagree more here than your other view..

    If you talk about the best notes, Anil, and put Kishore at around 2 octaves, I would agree. For me it is “pa” to “re”- about 12 notes as Paramjeet had earlier mentioned where he sounded the best.

    But then to say, Rafi “sounded best” for more than two octaves is a bit exaggaration, honestly speaking. I hope although sounding best is a subjective term, you would not say the way Rafi had sang “hai” in Toote hue khwabon ne (the lowest note) “sounded best”?? Rafi was never comfortable anthing less than ‘ni’ in his earlier years and ‘sa’ in his later yeras. Of course, he had theoritically hit notes, but is it everything? And since you have clearly defined you are talking of “best notes”, Rafi clearly lies between mid “re” to high “ma”- thaz all..

    Anything lower or higer -either end- Rafi never sounded “best”, Anil. “Dil ke jharokhe mein..” is upto ‘ma’- Rafi sounds good there..(and also gives a signal he has reached the extreme of the spectrum) The protion we are talking of in “Zindabad zindabad..” is that change in voice texture only Anil while he goes upto “dha”.. The part “woh patthar hai insaan kaha..” and then immediately after when he sings with chorus as noticed very evidently by folks here, Anil- there is an absolute change in voice texture.. This is not “best sounding” notes,Anil! At high pitch, this voice is called something else..Otherwise, as long as he was within high ‘ma’- he was beautiful in that song..

    Now, you might argue about best notes of Kishore not lying in the lowest octave(which seems from your post, as you started Kishore’s best notes from mid ‘re’).. You might not have gone through my youtube links especially the second one,, leaving apart the fact it is a milestone song in Bong movies, I wanted to draw your attention to the fact where Kishore starts the song and the notes he hits towards the word “khelaghar”- it is basically a two words mixed word-“khela” and “ghar”- a clear requirement hence to sustainance.. It makes the song more attractive and so many people have tried that song on stage and otherwise, no one could bring that beauty in that word without sounding too heavy or without sining the voice.

    Comparing “”Koi hota jisko apna”(1971) with a hypothetical “Koi hota ” in 1961: Does it make any difference Anil if there is no technical error? Kishore’s voice took a heavier and bassier texture over the years, so, in 1961 he could have never “sounded alike”.. just like he did not sound alike with the original “sahara” of Koi humdum na raha when he later sang it on stage.. But thta is “voice bass”! What does it have to do with instability of hitting notes? Instability occurs while hitting and sustaining lower notes (which are continous four here, still I am ignoring the challenge part of it) if the voice texture goes for a toss-“apna” sounding entirely different than “lekin koi mera”– which is not this case!( But “hai” sounded suddenly different than “humko yeh sikhaya” the point I mentioned earlier) Neither his voice sinks making the words at the lowest notes unclear..! So, comparing this with a mid 50 or mid 60 song does not make any sense to me- both have attraction in both ways- bassier or mid-bassy.

    Cheers!! And this time I find your posts much more to the point than the earlier posts of your colleagues!! Thanks for being on the topic..

  244. 244
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    Mujhe aapki aur Arghya ji ki posts padh ke bahut mazaa aa raha hai. Aap bilkul seedhi baat karte hain. Mai to keval prashna pooch ke samajhdaar ko guide karne ka prayatna karta hoon, aap seedha hi bol dete hain lol. Kaafi mazedaar aur accha style hai, please yoonhi bane rahiye. Rafi ke low pa ki sustainability ke examples to mai bhi sunna chahta hoon.

    Open, flowing aur Kishore jitni tagadi awaaz mein to bahut kam gaate honge. Mukesh mujhe bahut pasand hain par yeh gaana MD ne Kishore se soch kar hi gavaya hoga. Some people start talking about “xyz” new singer singing Kishore’s songs. They don’t realize ki na to woh Kishore jaise khul ke gaate hain na hi unme Kishore ki awaaz ka dum hai. Kuch anjaan log Kishore ke gaane ko “throating” ka naam dete hain.

    Whistle register ke baare mein mai isliye pooch raha tha kyonki mere khayal mein Kishore ne woh ek baar gaya tha ya kissi comedy picture ke scene mein masti ki thi (Sadhu aur Shaitan??), yaad nahi aa raha ki yeh sach hai ya khayal. Agar sach mein gaya tha to woh HFM mein shayad highest note hoga (not from modal register). This is just for the sake of information and would be another small skill for the giant genius that is Kishore. I am not sure about it though.

    Agar, aap iss register se waqif nahi to yeh link kripaya dekhiye. Isme aur bhi bade diggajj kalakaar hain, yeh to keval ek bahut accha sample hai.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS3cgGKDC6Y

    Aur mujhe sach mein nahi pata ki Shashi Kapoor ka kharab-gale wala “Tune Abhi Dekha Nahi” kisne gaya tha. Woh trick question nahi tha :), aapko pata ho to please bataiye. Mujhe woh low awaaz bilkul Shashi Kapoor ki lagti thi aur high waali Kishore ki ek aur masti awaaz, par yeh gaana bhi suna nahi bahut samay se. Kishore ne to Pran ka bhi texture bilkul copy kiya tha “Aake Seedhi Lagi Mein” to isliye kuch keh nahi sakte.

    Anil,

    I hope you are going to share examples to substantiate your claims:
    1) Examples of Kishore crooning in the lower notes that he is not comfortable in. You should also explain what you mean by crooning in the lower notes.
    2) Examples of Rafi sustaining a low Pa.

    I’d also like to read your opinion on Kishore’s high notes in the 2 Padosan songs. Why don’t you spell out the notes in those songs as also what you think Rafi’s “2+” octave and Kishore’s “2-” octave absolute range was and substantiate it with examples? We do not simply dismiss claims such as the ones you made as everyone would view them on merit; we look forward to details, otherwise, it would be nothing more than another empty claim sidelining a good ongoing discussion between others. I hope you are not going to evade questions again.

    Regarding “Koi Hota”, everybody’s voice changes with age, but there was absolutely nothing wrong in terms of clarity and sustainability in Kishore’s rendering. He was steady and the vibrations were all natural to him, the timber was real – everyone would have few changes with age. In this case, I don’t understand the need for speculating if he would sound the same in 62 as opposed to 71 (or whatever) because he still sounds outstanding and pulled it off extremely well. Kishore was certainly at much more at easy than Rafi at lower notes and Rafi was more comfortable at higher notes; but it was just a couple of notes either ways, not much of a difference.

  245. 245
    paramjeet Says:

    arghyaji:
    Kya baat kar rahe ho bhaijaan? Kaun si cheez to the point lagi aapko anilji ke post mein.. Satyanshji ne teen sawal poocha:
    a. Low notes mein crooning kaise hota hai woh define kare aur kishoreji ne kab aesa kiya uska example de. No jawab.
    b. Rafi sahab ne kab low’pa’ sustain kiya voice uniformity ke saath example de. No jawab.
    c. Padosan ke gaane pe kishoreji ne naturally kaun se high notes hit kiye sun ke batayein aur yeh bhi batayein kya woh natural nahi tha? No jawab.
    d. Aap ko yeh bhi yaad hoga kuchh mahine pehle lalitji aur hamari jab baatein ho rahi thi yeh anilji ne kaha tha kishoreji karange kuchh khaas nahi hai na to unki yoodelling. Humlogon ne us time pe bhi unko kuchh examples diye the. Un saare sawalon ka bhi no jawab.
    To kaise woh to the point hue?

    Anilji:
    Main aapko is liye bias nahi bola kyunki aap rafi fan hai. Yahan pe satyanshji manna de fan hai aur vitthalji ghantashala fan. Kisiko bhi maine bias nahi bola. Main is liye aap ko bias bola kyunki aapne rafi sahab ke range par observations theek kiya magar kishoreda ke range ko kaant chhant ke chhota kar diya. To isi liye pehle krupaya Satyanshji ke un 3 prashnon ka jawab de to fir hum aage baat karenge sir.

    Satyanshji:
    Whistle register pe mujhe aesa koi guruji ka gaana yaad nahi aa raha. Waise Miss Marry picture mein ek gaana hai ‘gana na aaya bajana na aaya’ usmein kishoreji ka ooncha wala sur aapne suna kya? Youtube mein milega.. Kahi woh note hitting pe to aapki baat nahi chal rahi? Sunke batayega plss…

  246. 246
    Anil Says:

    Arghya, understanding probs again. I quote my own previous post-
    “To me Kishore’s best notes would be from about mid ri (d3) to high sa (c4) and Rafi’s would be mid ga (e3) to high ma (f4).”
    I hope I’m clear enough now. In the nutshell I like both these singers more when they sing out aloud and freely from the mid-octaves rather than when they go down low.
    I have absolutely no issues with you liking Kishore’s low notes, similarly you can’t be having any issues with my liking Rafi’s (relatively) low notes- some times with a changed texture.
    Yeah, Kale-ghor is a fine effort and let me say he sounded cooler here than ‘mera apna…’. Infact I like Kishore when he goes down, hit low and comes back.. it’s when he sings sustained low-notes (like in ‘lekin…….apna.) that I find him relatively laboured.

  247. 247
    Anil Says:

    Mr.Satyansh:
    I didn’t want to answer you in the firstplace. I thought you would have realised without my telling you. I just don’t like speaking to people who instructs me how to speak and how to behave.
    Speaking of ‘courteous manners’, do you think you have been courteous in your latest post? I might provide examples or I might not, you can’t bully me into it.
    I can give you many links on all the points, right from Rafi hitting G#2, to what exactly is the standard in low-pitch singing in film music. I don’ want to do it here and I have a reason. You may leave your email id here if you want to know what it is.
    Paramjeetji:
    The points a and b requires examples (with links) and I can’t give it here. If you can leave your email id here, let’s carry on the debate. Kishore appears (I am not too sure since I don’t have a key board with me) to have hit high ‘ga’ in both the songs with a full voice and ‘ma’ (F#4) with a head voice. Good efforts both… too bad he didn’t venture into much high note singing and too bad he did all the high note singing for comedy songs.
    This info, I think, takes care of point c. Now, to point d- I can’t remeber any one giving me examples of Kishore doing something extra-ordinary. Mr.Lalit did provide a link of one live show, other than that I can’t remember anything. If you can kindly provide some examples,I shall be happy to comment on them.

  248. 248
    paramjeet Says:

    anilji
    Ifuwant to cary on the discusion in private mails then u shud not have started the topic in an open forum.
    You and manyother rafi fan come say things and go. This is not corect spirit. Clarify things tecnically and go.
    Read ur first post and see what u claim.. We expect justificaton in open forum only.. Because i no when u wll go to some other forum then again u will start telling kishore did not have a good range and his voice was coars aur aapke collegues bolenge wah wah.. So pl answer here..

  249. 249
    arghya Says:

    Anil 245.

    I dont have any problem also if you dont like Kishore’s low notes and love Rafi’s low notes. It is only because when you said in post 232 that you agree with Paramjeet on //”I agree with Paramjeet on the high-low notes issues.. hitting, sustaining and sounding good/cool/relaxed is the real test. // and then saying in 245 that //you can’t be having any issues with my liking Rafi’s (relatively) low notes- some times with a changed texture.//.. Definitely a changed voice texture is not sounding good, cool and relaxed Anil. At least not in line with textbook. If you have any other views that voice texture change is an indication of sounding cool, good and relaxed then explain otherwise you are contradicting.. Any case, if you still think that change in texture is better than perhaps Kishore can give tough to Rafi also in high notes in that line of thought..lolz..

    I dont think there is any problem in answering Satyansh’s query though.. He questioned something to you based on some claims which were made by you only in post 232. Why not to clarify them with him, dear? I think that is better than to have bitterness in this forum because all are in good spirits and there is no intention from anyone to malign any legends..

    Satyansh.

    You talked about intoxicating or sharabi songs.. How about this one from the singing king of comedy songs composed by the composing king of comedy songs??

    By the way what is ur take on smooth pregression across octaves and spontaneous switching of notes across octaves.. Do different singers have different competencies there also?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOc6QhFMHKs

    Paramjeet.

    Being to the point does not always necessarily mean to answer queries.. I found the posts of Mr. Cherian dignified and pertaining to the points which we were discussing so I congratulated him. Of course, he should answer the questions.. As I also think the questions arose from some of the claims made by him only in the open forum. So, the explanation should not be in private I suppose.

    Thanks.

  250. 250
    satyansh Says:

    Anil,
    Fair enough, since you were not direct, I couldn’t tell. I am used to people being civil and direct. You were evading questions as usual and that is what needed to be highlighted. Anyways, I don’t want this to result in unpleasantries again. Most people remember how you and another person had given empty threats to people and that is why I spoke about being courteous. Do you really think me saying “…I am not sure if you are the same Anil from the other site, but you are more than welcome to share your knowledge in a courteous manner. Also glad to see you liked the discussions. Hopefully, this round would not result in unpleasantries…” is bullying and you guys threatening to kill people is not? lol hilarious. Do think about what I just said.

    I was sincerely welcoming you and I meant it. I do see how my post where I say “…We do not simply dismiss claims such as the ones you made as everyone would view them on merit; we look forward to details, otherwise, it would be nothing more than another empty claim sidelining a good ongoing discussion between others…” can be construed as being discourteous. I carried over a conversation from another source here and there wasn’t a need for that. I stand corrected. Myself along with some others feel that we’d like to see you you get into technical discussions, not superficial ones with claims. Regardless, neither of us need to exchange info with each other. It is just fun and we can exchange healthy banter, so I welcome you again to do so. The only reason I address you directly is cause it is the courteous way to speak. I don’t want to take potshots.

    No one asked for examples on the standard in low-pitch singing. In fact, I was speaking with a friend that there is no point discussing that as the conversation was about Rafi and Kishore. I have heard a lot of Saigal and I believe he is above comparisons for more than one reason.

    I don’t understand why there would be a problem posting links, but I respect whatever reason you might have. I don’t think we’d be able to sustain an email discussion until we are more respectful here. I hope in due course we do get to that point. The discussion should not get off-track, so I am posting herewith the unsubstantiated claims for which we requested examples. I am speaking sincerely here – … at your convenience, please answer the following.
    1) Examples of Kishore crooning in the lower notes that he is not comfortable in. You should also explain what you mean by crooning in the lower notes. You can atleast explain how a person can croon in the lower notes that they are not comfortable in.
    2) Examples of Rafi sustaining a low Pa.
    3) Spell out the notes in those songs as also what you think Rafi’s “2+” octave and Kishore’s “2-” octave absolute range was and substantiate it with examples
    4) The examples that Paramjeet ji is talking about.

    Side note:
    In my opinion, Kishore does comfortably hit more than a high “Ga”. I say this based upon my understanding and association with music – I have never heard anybody sing Kishore’s songs in his solid open flowing timber style. They can sing it in their style but that is besides the point. Singers get up on stage and sing a peppy Kishore number and people simply don’t realize what the singer did. People sell Kishore short. He simply made things sound easy. On top of that Kishore said things like “Mujhe Sa Re Ga… kuch nahi aata”. People misunderstand this and his association with the comedy genre and typecast him as a lesser singer. This is absolutely not the case. He was right up there in terms of technique, calibre, etc. and higher than all in terms of sheer talent. I heard on a show here called “Abhi To Mai Jawaan Hoon” that he played the harmonium very well. Can anybody confirm this?

    Paramjeet ji,
    Woh gaana mai phir se sununga youtube mein. Mujhe nahi lagta woh whistle register se tha. Shayad yeh keval mera khayal hai. Mujhe aisa ek kissa yaad hai jab bachpan mein mujhe kisine Kishore ke ek ajeeb high note ka udaharaN diya tha aur mai abhi recall nahi kar pa raha hoon. Mai auron se bhi poochta hoon.

    Aur sir, aapke point (4) ke baare mein mai uss doosre forum mein bhi logon se yehi keh raha tha ki Kishore head voice (falsetto) mein better the logon se aur woh bhi ek important skill hai. Ant mein jab maine examples diye to wahan ka ek accha sadasya maan gaya tha. Yahan par bhi agar aap sab sehmat hon to pehle hum modal register ki baat karenge, phir iss par bhi jayenge. Maine socha nahi tha forum mein phir se kissi se baat hogi, par accha lag raha hai. Iska shrey aapko, Arghya ji and Vithal ji ko jata hai.

  251. 251
    paramjeet Says:

    SATYANSHJI.

    Kal raat se wait kar raha tha posts kab update honge. Ab jakar hue. Aap ne ek sachhi baat boli hai satyanshji ‘kishore is selled short’.kishoreji ko commercialize aur stereotype is had tak kiya gaya hai ke unki gayaki par zyada log nazar nahi dete aur ‘stereotype’ kar dete hai.. Upar se ek aam aadmi kishoreji ke gaane ke saath apne aap ko zyada associate kar leta hai baaki gayakon ke muqable.. To woh aam aadmi ka gayak ban jaate hai aur unke musical pehluon pe baatein kam hone lagti hai. Anilji ko bhi shayad properly malum nahi hoga details mein kishore kumar ke un points par jis pe unhone sawal uthaya hai, magar phir bhi woh ya kapilji bolenge kyunki woh log dekhte hai agar unko aam logon ke muqable mein zyada knowledge dikhana hai to kishore kumar ko promote karna theek nahi, us se unka ‘intellectual value’ kam ho jayegi..

    Aur bhi bahut saari baatein karni hai aap se.. Fir kabhi likhunga kaise systematic tarike se kishore kumar ko unmusical prove kiya jata hai communities mein..

    Unko harmonium aati thi Satyanshji.. In fact unki bhatiji(daughter of ashok kumar) ne recently ek interview mwin kaha(mere khayal se 4th august pe) ke kishore kumar bahut hi achha piano bajate the aur unko kain saare dhun bajaakar bhi sunaye hai…

  252. 252
    paramjeet Says:

    satyanshji..
    Agle 2-3 din thoda kaam se bahar ja raha hoon to shayad regularly aa na paaon yahan pe,, waise koshish zaroor karunga.. To is liye ek do chhezein poochh na chahunga aapse aur vitthalji se:

    i. Manna De ji ka utilization film singin mein kisne sabse achha kiya. Yeh thoda pl details mein explain kariyega. S D burman, shankar jaikshen, R D Burman, kalyanji anandji ya salil chowdhury???

    ii. Aesa kaun sa sangeetkar hai jinko manna de ji ko aur bhi zyada utilization karna chahiye tha?? Us composers ke compositions aur manna ji ke traits ko dhyan mein rakhte hue..

    Vitthalji.

    Ghantashalaji ne hindi movies mein kyun nahi gaya? Aesa to nahi ho sakta ke unko offers nahi mile.. To na gaane ka karan(reason) kya hai..

    Main ek post anilji ko english mein likhne ki koshish kari thi.. Mujhe khud ko sharam aa rahi hai ab woh language padh ke to main hindi mein hi likh raha hoon.. Vitthalji, pl try to understand

  253. 253
    Srivas Says:

    Dear Friends and music lovers,

    It is really a very interesting topic to discuss on musical notes, whether low, medium or high pitch. The question of rendition of various pitches whether low, medium or high is a matter of debate on one hand & on the other hand, it is a interesting point that how effectively they are rendered. I have seen many persons who are not musically trained but have been able to render all pitches comfortably, – they had a range which could render all pitches but for sure they were not effective in rendering the notes effectively, because of their lack of knowledge in music. Another interesting issue, persons without music knowledge have also, with determined practise, have been singing songs (particularly these days) and are able to create attraction, though such renditions are not fully perfect, rather upto the mark, if we go by the perfect qualities of a particular raga in which such songs are rendered. In olden days, viz., 40’s to 60’s most of the singers had classical background in music (though the specialisations differed), thus we could see original talent in those singers vis-a-vis musical renditions.

    So the point (in the view of many established musicians) is not only touching notes, but the effectiveness with which they are rendered is most relevant. Persons having good range of voice almost covering all the 3 octaves, if well trained in music, and having strength and depth in renditions, sound very nice in renditions of songs particularly in terms of effective note rendition.

    Since the topic was on notes, in my view, the notes should be comfortably rendered without any bit of strain or uneasiness, at the same time without compromising any of the qualities prescribed for a raga. That will become a perfect rendition. An example of such a rendition, I am sharing with all the friends here :

    Madi sarada devi (a south indian telugu film song – classical rendered by ghantasala, p b srinivas and raghunath panigrahi, an hindusthani musician; Ghantasala sings for ANR – the hero in white dress – the rendition may please be observed from 2.01 to end – ghantasala renders in a breathless stage the notes and swara alapana with ease in all the 3 octaves lower note ni in lower octave to high note ga in upper octave – the effectiveness with which the kalyana raga is rendered here is indeed stupendous and ranks beyond comparison – this rendition is another greater number similar to the one appreciated here i.e rasika raja of ghantasala)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpgcmWqwX5U

    Hope satyansh ji, Arghya ji & paramjeet ji will enjoy the beautiful rendition.

    Lalit ji and Surajit may further comment on the raga and rendition for interest of music lovers.

    Mr. Vitthal,

    You have not presented this song here and I am sure this is one of your favourites.

    In my view, in Hindi film (i am a carnatic musician) world, rafi and manna dey ji did render many classical songs – though manna dey has a little edge over rafi in purely technical qualification (not to be mistaked with technical talent which has a connection with vocal chords and voice) but I do not think both rafi and manna as well, as Mr surajit Bose states here, were as effective as their counterparts in the south specially ghantasala who had a clear edge over others and I think even p b srinivas from the south had a good command over music (though his voice did not have the depth and strength which ghantasala had and in high pitches he got diluted) vs rafi and manna.

    The general difference as, we carnatic musicians observe that manna sings comfortably as compared with rafi (who however has a good voice than manna). Rafi however, appears more attactive in renditions, other than classical hindusthani ones.

    Kishore fan, your points assumes importance here – madhuban mein radhika – nicely rendered. Why surajit ji had stated that this should have been rendered more effectively, the reason is, the ease/efficiency with which the notes should have been rendered in the raga is not present in full form – perhaps manna would have done more justice – from a technical point of view (rafi is fine from voice point of view) – You are correct, the nee madhu murali ( I have heard it twice from your post 153) of ghantasala – perfectly rendered – both from voice point of view as well as technical effectiveness in the raga is fully present. My view is that, the hindi song is definitely nice to hear, but if you consider from a technical point of view, it should be more effective particularly the raga rendition should be continuous and not independent of notes (which is one of the quality for rendering hamir kalyani raga). If you carefully view, it is known that each note is specifically concentrated by rafi (for a expert classical musician no specific concentration is required on note -his command over raga automaticallly gives continuous adaptability to the notes – like ghantasala in the above song) – whereas manna is different – there is continuation efffectiveness in his renditions. Hope I am confusing people with musical inputs (perhaps surajit ji and lalit ji might appreciate and others may find it difficult – sorry I have tried to put as easily as can be understood).

    So friends, since the discussion was going on musical notes here, just wanted to share a few thoughts here on the same.

  254. 254
    Anil Says:

    Satyansh:
    A courteous post deserves a courteous reply- hence this post.
    I have to quote my first post again:
    “I like Kishore best when he sings medium high notes with his no-holds barred style and not when he croons the low-notes.” “that he is not comfortable in” is your addition. I didn’t mean ‘Kishore croons notes which he can’t sing in full (chest) voice or when things go below his comfort zone’. What exactly I meant was that ‘I don’t like Kishore that much when he has to go down to the low registers, especially when he has to sing sustained low notes’. When he does it, he can’t project the fullness of his voice and therefore there is that murmuring feel (not to be confused with the whispery feel of Rafi when he hits the low notes sometimes). This is ‘crooning’ for me; I wasn’t referring to the sentimental and minutely-phrased crooning of Crosby, Sinatra & Co. As examples of such songs I will have to point out several instances, sometimes in the low notes, sometimes in the low-to-mid notes. For low-notes singing in light songs, there are other (and better) examples than Saigal saab (In South India) and I would be glad if you find out a few of them.
    Let me repeat it again. I had (and still have) no intention to compare Kishore with Rafi; rather I was placing both of them in the same side of the net in my first post. If at all I went for a bit of comparison later on, that’s only because I was lead into it by subsequent posts of Arghya, Paramjitjee and yourself.
    Arghya:
    I wasn’t contradicting myself. ‘To sound cool, relaxed and good is the key’ and I still maintain it. I like many Kishore efforts in the low notes when he hits them cool and relaxed (especially in his youth). With Rafi, I know pretty well that many HCM exponents wouldn’t approve his way of hitting the lows with that huskier and sometimes hushed texture. But to me (subjective it may be) it is quite attractive and I’m sure many of the listeners (classical exponents and others) like it too. BTW, the Western classical singing approves it and many of the exponents think it is the way to do it. As I have written sometimes back here, the change in texture enables Rafi to communicate well with the common folks; they know when he hits the low notes that it is indeed a low-note.

  255. 255
    Vitthal Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    A good question. Generally, this doubt comes, why such great singer ghantasala venkateswara rao (famed by his surname ghantasala) did not sing in Hindi. It was because, ghantasala never used to venture in an area, where he did not consider himself 100% perfect (like he was in telugu industry – right from 100% chaste language command to perfect musical command across various possible genres and had virtually no competition due to his exalted talent) He was of the opinion that unless one cannot contribute 100% perfection, it may not be effective. He did not know hindi language. That is why (with such status in telugu) he might have thought of not singing any hindi song, because he might have thought that he might not perform perfectly as far as the language issue is concerned . He has sung many songs in tamil, kannada as well as malayalam, though telugu he is the highest where he is the paripurna amara gayaka. He had no formal education, but rose to a position which has not been surpassed/or even have come at least nearer, even today by anybody in telugu industry.

    Surprisingly, today many singers even if they are not perfect/versed with the language start singing songs (udit narayan sings telugu songs)

    Ghantasala fans never, like kishore fans, degrade any singer (though they admire ghantasala more due to his unique position and talent) but had to mention him in rafi forum, because a public campaign was going on that rafi alone is ………….. (& when he was introduced, cases are well known – rafi fans have been taken by surprise) this was the main reason why such comparison rose. Never has been the issue with kishore fans, because I have noticed that kishore fans are much more dignified.

  256. 256
    Debjyoti Says:

    Kishoreda is the greatest singer and genius in the world.All his devotional songs are superb.Rafi as a singer is light years behing Kishoreda.JAY KISHOREDA!!!

  257. 257
    arghya Says:

    Anil. 253.

    Well, I must say, both of us know the fact but interpret differently.. Change in voice texture is never a good sign of hitting low notes IMHO neither is to let people know “you are actually hitting notes” IMHO. I would agree hereby 100% with Paramjeet. A husky voice in low notes is never a sign of calm and coolness- you also know that. But you like that better, that is your choice. That line of thought, I think you find Kumar Sanu also attractive for his singing of all those high notes via nasal chords..

    Srivasji 252.

    Nice to see you back. I think you explained things quite beautifully. And I could interpret a thin knowledgable music person like me when I read such beautiful explanations. I must say, as a layman, I liked Rafi sahab’s classical songs more than Manna De’s. And that is not at all considering the technicalities like the pitch of alaap, tempo of taan, variety of taans, murkis etc. etc. The sheer reason I liked Rafi’s semi classicals more than other more trained singers is I found Rafi’s singing more” linked with common man”.. A layman can understand Rafi and like the way he approaches classical music whereas an appreciation for Ghantashala can not come to a layman like this. I still think it is Mohamed Rafi who made semi classical music understandable to the common people via movies more than Manna De. However, this is a disputable claim, so I am open to correction.

    Debjyoti 255

    Please dont say such childish things in such a revered forum. You tackle Rafi fans with vigour for all their nonsense, I always support, but please do not say such things for a legend like Rafi sahab. Let us maitain the required dignity in this site.

  258. 258
    satyansh Says:

    Arghya [post 248],
    Very funny song. Kishore in those different roles is a riot. My all time favorite entertainer. Excellent point about smooth progression across octaves and spontaneous switching of notes. Again, my disclaimer precedes my opinions :). IMO, it is not a straight-forward topic because when you talk about smooth progression across octaves, one can do that by singing in different registers as well. I would try to give my take in different paragraphs so all can read and comment. I hope I arrange my reply correctly otherwise it could be confusing.

    If I understand your question correctly, I would largely categorize both points into 2 buckets – one where say the chord progression is constant and another where there is a pause and you start on a different scale without preceding music to guide you. I have seen some people say “hava mein se sur ko pakado”; that applies to the latter. Kishore could do this very well, as people say that he would parade around during a stage show and then all of a sudden start singing from the correct “sur” without any preceding music. But, I feel as far as randomly changing the scale of the song from one line in say the medium octave to another in a different one, with pauses, Rafi is better and in my opinion, it was one of his strengths. This was utilized to the hilt by many MDs. SDB made use of this and Rafi’s soft and sweet texture a lot. I don’t see much of a difference as far as smoothly progressing across octaves goes for any of these singers, if you look at it for their respective range. Actually, I don’t know any “good” singer who can not go from high notes in the middle octave to a high Sa or Re smoothly.

    Rafi’s style was to generally hold on to a note longer and kiss notes during his harkatein. As far as spontaneous switching of notes in a regular progression is concerned, I feel Kishore is better. It is an aspect of his harkatein and just natural to the way he sings. Then again Rafi is good there too. There is also a caveat to Kishore singing after pauses. He has often made it sound funny and in most of the songs I can think of at the top of my head, he has gone into falsetto. He has done it beautifully every time, but there is a caveat to this beauty as well that I wouldn’t like to discuss. Now, neither singers’ styles sound good on all filmy songs. Let me add to this, all singers have different styles and they are all suited to different songs.

    An example of harkatein is how differently both of them say (and “could” have said) the word “Kisne” in the line “Dhoop Ko Kissne Baandha” from the song “Man Re”. I enjoy both styles. I think it is tougher to sing it in Rafi’s style in Kishore’s voice as also to sing in Kishore’s style in Rafi’s voice (I hope I am being clear here with regards to style and voice). It is hard for me to write about these things without actually singing to explain, so I apologize if I am not being clear :).
    Rafi: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7Slc6ANDVw (1:08 to 1:09)
    Kishore (recording quality is bad): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd1_yG9k11w (2:12 to 2:16)
    Anup Jalota sang it too. Hear this version – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE-V4UzSUPI&feature=related . (1:17 to 1:29). I don’t want to say too much, but I love how he says “Kisne” too (subjectively don’t like his voice a lot, but like his style of saying this word).

    The reason I gave the example of “Kisne” above is because if you notice Kishore’s style he intentionally pauses after “Dhoop Ko” and does not put as much harkatein in that word as he could have especially during the “Neee”. He had the ability to do that and that would, in my opinion, have been his first instinct in this song. I know we all have plenty of examples of Kishore’s spontaneous switching of notes and “Koi Hota” as described by you was one. I think “Guzar Jayen Din” is a good example and a tough song to sing.

    There is another aspect of Kishore that needs to be highlighted here, and that is pertaining to singing from/in different registers. We know that Kishore could maintain his timber across octaves and progress smoothly between registers. IMO, one of the reasons he was the best in Hindi film music in yodelling (other than his powerful chest voice) is because he could spontaneously switch between his chest voice and falsetto and he had a pronounced break when he needed it which is why his switch sounded so cool. I have never heard Rafi do that. This point has not been highlighted since I think there is a lot more to Kishore than yodelling even though I respect yodelling as an art form and enjoy it even more because of the context in which Kishore does it. A good example of a pronounced break is in “Na Koi Dil Mein Samaya” when Kishore comes back from falsetto to chest voice in “JanejaaaaaN Janemann”.

  259. 259
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,
    I am in complete agreement with your Post 247. Arghya aur mai bhi yehi baat kar rahe the isiliye maine tabhi Anil se waise sawaal kiya tha. Mujhe Manna Dey ke SC aur SJ ke saath bahut zyada pasand hain. SDB mere all time favorite MD mein se ek hain aur unhone to Manna Dey se kai acche gaane gavaye hain. CR ka “Tu Chuppi Hai Kahan” bhi lajawaab tha. Ispar to mai ek poori post likhunga jab aap wapis aa jayenge. Kuch gaane to mere dil ke bahut kareeb hain :). Aapke point (ii) ka to jawaab mere liye bilkul seedha hai. Naushad ji Manna Dey se aur bahut se gaane gava sakte the. Waise mere hisaab se Manna Dey overall under-utilized rahe aur typecast kar diye gaye. Yeh to aisa hua ki aapne mere jaise sawaal kiya jiska jawaab to aapko pata tha, lol. Aapke regularly phir forum par aane ka mujhe intezaar rahega. Mai bhi abhi thodi break le leta hoon. Bahut typing ho gayee. Dost Arghya ne kaha forum par aa jao to mai aa gaya tha :). Aapse email aur phone number exchange karna chahunga. Kar sakte hain to bataiyega.

    Srivas ji,
    Thank you for sharing your inputs and the song. I enjoyed reading your inputs. With regards to “Madhuban Mein Radhika Naache”, can you explain in detail what should have been done to keep the essence of the raga alive and what are the notes that were distinctly emphasized by Rafi? Also, were there certain notes that Rafi did not put proper emphasis on and instead just kissed them? For the sake of clarification for everybody and since it is hard to understand these things online without listening to the actual sounds, when you say “…it is known that each note is specifically concentrated by rafi…whereas manna is different – there is continuation efffectiveness in his renditions…”, I read it as the kind of sound when say people start moving their jaw during a taan (the aww sound, I can’t find an easy way to spell it) instead of the sound flowing from inside. Please correct me if this is not what you are talking about. I have seen some teachers correct people when they do that, but again I am already crossing my line by speaking about these legends. I do agree that Rafi’s voice was sweeter than Manna Dey’s voice, but I also like Manna Dey’s voice and feel that he sang very freely and had good bass in his voice too. He could also make it sweet when needed, though not as sweet as Rafi. I like Rafi and Kishore’s voice texture more. On those lines, I also like Rafi’s and Kishore’s voice texture more than Ghantasala although I believe Ghantasala was a superior singer. Please note that I do not wish to bring in any points that might seem to not be in favor Ghantasala, I am merely talking about voice texture and this could also be because I hear the sounds when listening to Ghantasala’s songs and don’t understand the language. I really like Ghantasala.

    Anil,
    I interpret from your post that you believe that Kishore did not sustain low notes and that is what you call crooning. Correct me if I am wrong. Uncomfortable notes would still be easier to digest, but sustaining say a straight-forward low dha (not his lowest) for Kishore should not be a problem at all. I wouldn’t call that crooning, but in any case now I know what you are talking about with regards to “low octave crooning”. I don’t think Kishore had any problems in sustaining the low note in “Koi Hota”, his voice was certainly heavier, but that is about it. You are attempting to place Rafi and Kishore on the side of the net (higher notes) where Rafi is better. Sure, we can talk about that too, but we can’t just dismiss that Kishore was better than Rafi in the lower octave. Again, I keep repeating (reminds me of the true voice forum days) that I feel that a couple of notes here or there doesn’t matter, it is more important to note how effective they are in those notes. Many songs can be adjusted to the “sa” of the person singing it especially HFM songs as long as the song still retains the beauty of the original composition. I still look forward to your other detailed replies on the other points in post 249.

    Arghya [Post 256],
    […And that is not at all considering the technicalities like the pitch of alaap, tempo of taan, variety of taans, murkis etc. etc. The sheer reason I liked Rafi’s semi classicals more than other more trained singers is I found Rafi’s singing more” linked with common man”…A layman can understand Rafi and like the way he approaches classical music whereas an appreciation for Ghantashala can not come to a layman like this. I still think it is Mohamed Rafi who made semi classical music understandable to the common people via movies more than Manna De…] – I am a layman too and I appreciate Ghantasala more than Rafi on semi-classical songs, so that can be termed a generalization. A big NO to the second point too lol. IMO, the credit for that goes to KLS and after him Manna Dey. I am not really concerned about the credit as much as the singing aspect of it and there I believe both Ghantasala and Manna Dey better Rafi. The fact that you like Rafi more in “semi-classical” is completely cool. Everyone has their opinions and one might like a song like “Madhuban Mein Radhika” better than something like “Ketaki Gulab Juhi” , but that does not mean that the former was a better rendition (while this is an apples to oranges comparison, I hope you get the point). Also, one should not miss the point that they had a singer other than Rafi render parts for “Madhuban”. People talk so much about Kishore not singing “Pag Ghungroo Baandh” in it’s entirety, but no one talks about this. Maybe there was a reason for this and then they showed another actor (Mukri??) singing it on screen :). I think this was put most succinctly by Surajit who said “…Rafi has a classicist approach to singing…”. I couldn’t have said it better. Do you like the “classicist” approach rather than the “classical” approach of Manna Dey or Ghantasala and the “natural” approach of Kishore the most? I like the “classical” approach more; if it was purity and freshness, I like Kishore; and I like Rafi equally for being a fine balance between the two. Different singers for different moods. As Surajit said, it is just a mindset. Also, you might be confusing the melody in the Rafi songs to the other numbers. Rafi’s songs were certainly melodious and that has a lot to do with the MDs. In that regard one might even like HFM renderings more than those of the pandits, which again is cool, but doesn’t make the former renditions better. So I am glad that you clarified already that when you are talking about who made classical more understandable to the common people, you already set aside the technicalities. Personally, I like to speak about who was more effective and better equipped technically; you have to remember that a Manna Dey fan knows that Rafi, Mukesh and Kishore were ahead of him in terms of popularity and mass appeal in HFM. Our discussion is only with regards to who is the better singer. When people talk about popularity, etc. I don’t care either ways. Himesh R. beats all of them in popularity and we all know what a “singer” he is lol.

  260. 260
    Surajit Bose Says:

    Hi Anil,

    It’s refreshing to see you discuss musical technicalities so civilly with Arghya and Paramjeet, for a change.

    I have no problems if you say that you prefer Rafi’s renditions in the lower scale, as compared to Kishore. After all, we are all individualistic and we have our preferences.

    However, technically speaking, Rafi’s voice is just not suited to singing in the lower scale. When Rafi tries to sing in the lower scale, he automatically reduces the volume of his voice. And his voice is just not suited for singing in the lower volume. That is why, his voice loses some of it’s clarity and assumes a husky, whispering texture. Obviously, this is required for some songs and they come off well. However, that is also one of the reasons why he found it difficult to shine for as long as the saigal and talat style of singing was in vogue.

    Also, there are instances where when Rafi sang in the lowest scale during a song, he had to manipulate his larynx and thus prevent his normal, full voice to come out. This had been talked about previously on other forums and one example that readily comes to mind is when Rafi sings the line “Aag laki saawan ki barkhaa” in “O duniya ke rakhwale”. When Rafi touches the low dhaivat on “wan” in “saawan”, he manipulates his larynx and muffles his voice. For a classicist, that’s hard to overlook.

    This has nothing to do with sur. It’s just that when you learn classical singing, among other things like latching on to the pure source of the sound (or nada), achieving resonance etc., you are taught to use your breath properly (prana), and you are also instructed not to manipulate the larynx (artificially closing it and thus muffle the sound when it comes out) when singing in the lower registers.

    Rafi’s voice was such that it needed the right amount of volume to express it’s range and expression.

    Kishore is pigeonholed as a comic and wacky singer. But if you looked deeper into the main aspects of classical singing, like voice control, timbre, projection, resonance, clarity, precision – things that are really important, he is amazing. People mostly look for ornamentation when it comes to singing. And that is the most unfortunate part. And that is why Kishore is underappreciated. It’s actually a tribute to his talent that he makes it appear easier than it actually is.

  261. 261
    satyansh Says:

    Srivas ji,

    Please ignore my question on the rendering of the raag. Questioning and commenting upto a certain level are fine. However, I do not wish to analyze and discuss in hindsight if one of the great legends laid appropriate stress on the vadi/samvadi and if he could have resolved it differently. I don’t even care if people never realize that. Let everybody enjoy their favorite singer as long as they don’t demean other singers.

  262. 262
    arghya Says:

    Satyansh 258.

    Yes, the most face paced taan in the song with maximum variation was executed by some other classical vocalist in “Madhuban mein radhika..”.. People are clever also to put that on the lips of a comedian in the picture as if to make this work “a fun..”. That way the fast paced sargam taan in “Pag ghungroo bandh..” also should not be questioned as to why Mishraji sang it..lol..

    My point I think you also got. Yes, I put aside the technicalities while listening to a semi classical. As I am no authority to judge the technicalities of a classical song like Lalitji, Surajitji or Srivas ji or Vitthalji. I have a good pair of ears, and I find a “common appeal” or you can say the Rafi semi classicals gets “connected with me better”. That is all what I can say, as I cant judge technicalities in classical singing unless and otherwise it is pretty obvious( tempo of taans, type of taans, complexity of taans, coverage of notes, pitch of alaap etc. etc. etc.).. You can say it is a very superficial approach of listening to classical songs, but I have my limitations..lolz..

    By the way, I have a question to you again..lolz.. What is ur take on Kishore’s yoodelling vis-a-vis yoodellings of the Western artists? Perhaps Dean Martin or Frank Sinatra?? Do you think Kishore comes right up there with the international best of the bests??

    Surajit 259.

    Nice to see you back again. We missed you.

  263. 263
    Anil Says:

    Satyansh:
    I think you read a little too much between the lines in my posts. I was basically trying to say the following points:

    “1. Both Rafi and Kishore sound their best (to me) when they sing mid-high notes (I also mentioned the notes) and therefore it goes without saying that both are less-than-at-their-best in the low notes.
    2. Kishore can go lower than Rafi (I mentioned the notes again) and sounded ‘cool’ when he did it. I also specifically said I like him when he does it (though not as much as his mid-high notes)
    3. I don’t like Kishore too much when sings sustained low notes. Here again, I mentioned specifically that technically there wouldn’t be much issues with these notes; just that they are not too pleasing to my ears (in comparison to the low notes of some other singers as well as Kishore himself at mid-high notes)
    4. The perfection of Rafi’s low notes can be questioned by Indian classical music (both HCM and KCM) followers. But I don’t dismiss it as ‘bad singing’; neither would I hail it as ‘great singing’.
    5. The natural scale of both the singers are more or less at par.
    6. The absolute range of Rafi is 2+ octaves and Kishore is 2- octaves.”

    That’s it. Or if in doubt, just scroll back to my posts. Now what are the conclusions you have drawn up from my points? That I am trying to pit Kishore against Rafi in high notes? When did I do it? I didn’t compare these singers anywhere, in the first place, except when querried about the absolute scales and I didn’t ever venture into the high notes at all except the mention of the absolute ranges and the best notes (which off course is a personal choice).
    Okay, now to ‘crooning’ again. I didn’t say Kishore did not sustain the lower notes. He did and technically there cannot be any issues. But does he project his voice as fully and sing as freely as he does in the higher registers? I know it is not easy to do it but then there are people who do it rather well (No, Rafi is not one of them). Let me clarify more. “Crooning” (to me) doesn’t stand for bad or fake singing. I used the term more to convey ‘a less free-flowing’ or ‘a relatively stifled’ singing.

  264. 264
    kumar Says:

    Mr. Satyansh, Mr. Vitthal, Mr. Arghya and others.

    NO COMPARISON BETWEEN RAFI AND GHANTASALA – FOLLOWING PARAS SHOULD CLEARLY THROW LIGHT ON THIS.

    I am a telugu man and In my view, there cannot be any comparison between rafi and ghantasala, as two were from entirely different fields. One is from carnatic music field and another is hindusthani field. It is true that in southern film industry (more so in telugu) there is no equal for ghantasala in terms of his contribution there, as was for rafi in hindi. Like one Mr. A S Murthy states here that the two industries were different, and both rafi and ghantasala were fully fit for their respective industries in terms of a very wide variety of beautiful achievements, and achieved more prominence than others, the factor which had not been surpassed till date. Perhaps this might be reason for their comparison (more so due to their status) Another factor is that many telugu people being conversant with hindi language could appreciate rafi equally like ghantasala, but on the other hand rafi fans might not fully appreciate ghantasala due to their limited knowledge of the telugu language, whereas a telugu man could clearly decipher ghantasala’s complete perfection similar to rafi, by virtue of their knowledge of telugu. Mr. Vitthal’s points are valid here ( 100% chaste telugu language command and expression to the perfection for ghantasala was fully correct and these can be known only by people having telugu language knowledge)

    Rafi fans specially,

    As rafi was perfect in hindi (as per the requirements of hindi language and industry requirements) so was ghantasala for telugu (he had a special edge in classical renditions – but had equal unique attraction in other genres as well ranging from romatic to devotional to comedy to various others – otherwise if he was only a classical expert how could he rule telugu industry for nearly 3 decades as the undisputed monarch of playback singing) No body will believe if you say that on only classical film songs telugu industry has thrived which will be a foolish argument. So unless one is well conversant with telugu language, ghantasala cannot be appreciated in full, though musically he might sound attractive.

    More so, I have seen many rafi fans claiming that rafi sang in telugu. That is good but it is absolutely a fact that rafi could not do any justice to telugu song. I will narrate the story behind this. NTR had a fight with ghantasala, and there was dispute between them and NTR had invited rafi to sing for a telugu film (bhale tammudu in 1969 as NTR thought that rafi is the perhaps only singer in the country, other than ghantasala, who can be attractive in telugu) but this did not work, as rafi was in no way appreciated there. Subsequently, in another film talla pellama, NTR came down and with little reluctance, made a combination of both rafi and ghantasala (some songs for rafi and some for ghantasala – ghantasala song became hits and rafi was again down) and that was the end of road for rafi there. NTR, without any other option, had to again approach ghantasala. This was about rafi’s earlier stint with telugu renditions. Whatever other very few telugu songs, rafi have rendered are only after the demise of ghantasala and virtually for all purposes, rafi had clearly no room in the telugu industry – it was clear. More so, whatever songs rafi have rendered in telugu are copies of his hindi songs, and there are no original telugu songs rendered by rafi under any of the greatest telugu music directors. So rafi rendering any telugu song, has virtually no importance from telugu industry point of view and the industry was such that rafi would not have really fitted therein at all.

    So friends, let us treat both rafi and ghantasala as two great legends the indian film industry has given to us, and enjoy their awesome contribution individually, which has not been surpassed till date.

    Kishore fans,

    I was given to understand that a late son of ghantasala was a kishore fan and had liking for kishore kumar. See, the son of a established singer (more so with classical background) had admiration for kishore, which in itself proves, that kishore too had a numerous fan following even amongst classical musicians. SPB used to imitate kishore kumar in his early stages, but I was given to understand that ghantasala advised SPB to develop originality factor instead of imitation, as the original talent alone will achieve importance. Nevertheless, it is a fact that kishore kumar is also equally appreciated with huge fan following, even by classical musicians, as can be seen in this forum as well. That is really a special factor for kishore.

  265. 265
    kumar Says:

    Vitthal ji – 254

    contd.. to my previous post,

    In my previous post as I mentioned about rafi’s failed experimentation of telugu songs , I might think that, as you mentioned, ghantasala might have known about that factor and that is why about his rendition of any hindi song, perhaps he might have avoided hindi song for avoiding such embarrasment situations (as happened for rafi in telugu).

  266. 266
    arghya Says:

    Kumar 263/264.

    I dont think any singer can be compared “AS A WHOLE” with any other singer braodly..What we are discussing perhaps are certain traits of one with the other”IN A GOOD SPIRIT”. Interesting to know about the SPB thing. I did not know that. One of my freinds and an ardent SPB(and Rafi) fan Prabhanjan can throw more lights on this perhaps. In many songs I found SPB’ s enactment(in the 80s Hindi movies) quite resemblant to Kishore’s style.

    Satyansh 257

    Very appreciable observation indeed. There are certain aspects of Kishore’s yoodelling(what you call transformation from chest voice to full falsetto and then landing again)-
    1. Of course, sustainence in the falsetto voice much longer than any other singer.
    2. Coverage of notes while switching from chest voice to full falsetto.
    3. Pitch at which he could make the switch. It can be bent towards any of the register high or low- two contradictory examples I would like to share.
    “Piya piya piya mora jiya pukare…”(which Paramjeet said as his most favourite yoodelling), he takes the tranformation from high to higher.I think it starts from “sa” of the highest.. Now compare this with yoodelling of “Imtihan ho gayi intezaar ki…”, the start of the song, the yoodelling starts I think from “re” of middle octave(d3).. This is again a sheer talent as he had that uncanny ability to transform to falsetto at any range..
    4. And of course, there is that ability to make an yoodelling appealing in a variety of genres.. Of course, it started with an expression of happy or fun moods, but slowly he too it to romanticism and sadness also.. And never sounding out of place..

    That is why I wanted to know the yoodelling styles of different western singers from you and how you rate Kishore on an international scale.

  267. 267
    Vitthal Says:

    Kumar ji – 264

    Thanks for your great post. Enlightening. Sir, there was no comparison here, as the two were certainly incomparable legends. There was only sharing of songs of those legends here and a beautiful musical discussion was being shared here.

    Paramjeet ji, – I think the issue is clear, why ghantasala did not sing any hindi song.

    Sri Vas ji – Madi sarada devi is certainly one of my favourites. It is such a great rendition. Thanks for the inputs there – really amazing.

    Arghya ji – Please do not call me a classical expert analyst. I have very limited knowledge in music. Thanks for your compliments (though I am not eligible)

    Arghya & Paramjeet ji, – have you heard madi sarada devi in post of sri vas ji. I did not share that rendition with you earlier.

    Thanks
    Vitthal

  268. 268
    paramjeet Says:

    arghyaji.
    Aapka point dhundla sa hai.. Clear nahi hai.. Aap kya yeh bolna chahte hai ke ‘rafi common men’s classical singer the’ aur manna ya ghantashala ‘classical musician’s classical singer the’?? agar yeh baat hai to bhi main differ karke bolunga yeh sirf kuchh had tak theek hai.

    Is mein koi doubt nahi ki rafi sahab ne semi classicals ko popular kiya magar kya manna ne nahi kiya? Kyun ek level ke baad (after mid 60s) sabhi classical gaane manna ko diye jaate the? Agar popularity hi factor hai to? Kyun shammi kapoor pe ‘chham chham baje re payaliya’ manna ne gaye? Kyun teri soorat meri aankhein mein manna ko zyada difficult classical diya gaya? Mere huzoor mein rafi se ghazal aur manna se classical kyun gavaya gaya? Mehbooba mein ragatmak gaana kishore ko deke , alankarik gaana manna ko kyun diya gaya? Kya woh popular nahi hue? 70s mein kitne classical gaane alankar ke saath gaye rafi sahab ne? Aesa to nahi gaane nahi bante the.. Rahul dev burman ne khud kitne cclassical gaane banaye.. Baat yeh hai arghyaji, ek level ke baad common log bhi zyada demand karne lagte hai.. Unko woh ‘classicalism’ voice aur singing mein nazar aani chahiye..

    As a ‘voice’ kishore kumar zyada classical sound karte the magar woh gaate nahi the alankar ke saath.. Aur alankar mein bhi manna ji ki pahoonch bahut upar tha arghyaji.. Aap ne kaha jo cheezein obvious hai(taan, alaap etc.) wohi aap samajhte hai.. To us hisaab se bhi manna bahut oonche hai guru..

    Satyanshjo sahi hai ke manna fans ko populaity pe koi farak nahi padta.. Popularity kya hai? Kishore kumar itne popular hai kitne log unko theek se study kiye hai?

    Rafi ke classical gaane bahut had tak MD aur lyricist pe dependant tha(sirf classical, dusre gaane nahi).. Siva sankari jaisa gaana jisme bol ya dhun se zyada vocal accomplishment important hai aese gaane kitne hai? Ketaki gulaab juhi jaise ‘nirbol'(less words more ornamentation) gaane kitne hai??

    Vitthalji maine sarada devi geet pehle hi suna hua hoon aur bolne ki zaroorat nahi main atyant prasanna hoon… Main alag se kabhi vistaar mein likhunga is baare mein..

  269. 269
    arghya Says:

    Paramjeet 267.
    Thanks for the post.
    Paramjeet, the things you said are correct.. Not only Rafi, but also Manna, Ghantashala all contributed to the popularity of classical music amongst common people in different languages and I fully agree with that.

    I said quite explicitly that “However, this is a disputable claim, so I am open to correction.” and I am. I only say that I found “Rafi classicals are more connectibles with me”.. Say when I hear a Ghantashala or a Manna classical it is very hard to imagine a member of Flat No.6 staying in Vishnupriya Apartment loving a girl and sing the song.. But listen to Rafi’s semi classicals you will find that even that boy next door “might sing a Aj hu na aaye balma..” for his girlfirend”.. I hope I am clear.. I am not claiming that Rafi classicals are BETTER THAN MANNA OR GHANTASHALA( the songs like “Rasika Raja” or “Siva Sankari” cannot be by any imagination sung by Rafi as I had said earlier also), but Rafi with his slower tempoed taans or less complex types of taans(never trying all three in a same song- as you said) or less convoluted alaaps “USED TO APPEAL COMMON MEN MORE THAN MANNA”.. That is my points and never to mean that Rafi>Manna in classical songs.

    You are also right in saying in terms of technicalities and when public demand for classicals went upwards, Manna became the “original choice” for classical songs from late 60s onwards.. I fully agree with that.

    “Nirbol” classicals- I can’t say anything.. Let Surajit Bose or other learned person respond to this whether Rafi could make a semi classical without much wordings beautiful or not.. As I said, dont take me so seriously, I am not at all a trained authority like many in this forum.. I am mainly a good listener(within my limitations) and people say(generally, except some biased bloods) what I write makes sense.. Would put a stop to this now..

  270. 270
    Kishorefan Says:

    Arghya ji,

    I have taken your advise in right spirit by not bringing out any points in regard to the other forum and was enjoying the discussions going on in this forum. But I am unable to stop, despite your advise, mentioning that in the other forum in the col. if rafi had sung these songs (see recent posts) in posts 68, 69 of Mr. Bhagchandani and Mr. Haldar in his earlier post have passed unpleasant comments against you (leave kishore kumar – it has become a regular feature). When you are so nicely involved in a very dignified discussion here, ( your post 256 on rafi as a legend is a great example for that – advise to Mr. Debjyoti here – 255) has not created any effect on any rafi fan in the other forum – I am unable to stop to bring this to your notice. If you permit, let us give a fitting reply there, I hope Mr. paramjeet and others also would join in giving proper reply without compromising our dignity. Again, please excuse me for bringing this point here, but i could not see “without reason – blame” on a dignified music lover.

  271. 271
    Raj Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    Aap hindi me continue kariye, kuch problem nahi hai. After all, we all are discussing about hindi music, of course, as well as ghantasala songs, but no issue since ghantasala fans also know hindi very well. Aapke messages bahut interesting hai, samajhne me kuch problem nai hai.

  272. 272
    arghya Says:

    By the way here is a Jimmie Rodgers yoodelling(Blue Yoodel #8)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXV9_WilcHs

    Notice the yoodellings.. The transformation to falsetto creates a whistling impact which Kishore’s yoodelling never makes.. A shrill impact you can say.. Ask me, I would say Kishore’s yoodellings were more sophisticated..

  273. 273
    paramjeet Says:

    kishorefan bhai,
    itne gyani log bhaithe hai wahan pe jo RD Burman se bhi zyada gyan rakhte hai sangeet mein.. Unko sab pata hai kaun sa gaana kisne achha gaya ya kaun behetar gaa sakta tha ya kisne barbaad kiya.. isi liye kehte hai Kishorefan bhai adha gyan agyan se bhi bhayanak hota hai.. Lalitji jaise bole the’ they think they know music’..

    Aap khaali padho aur dimaag se nikaalo.. Bhagchandaniji kya bole? Unko yahan se nikala gaya? Mujhe to lagta hai woh khud apne surname ka pehla char letters ko istemaal karte hue yahan se prasthan karke apne office mein reporting kar gaye.. Aur 2-4 ulat palat likhte yahan pe to aese aese sawal poochhe jaate jo zindagi mein kabhi sune nahi honge..

    Rahi baat hamare arghyaji ki, maine pehle bhi kaha tha unse in logon ko sikh leni chahiye kaise dignity maintain karte hai forum mein.. Kishoreda ke itne bade bhakt hote hue bhi baaki legends ko kaise sanman dete hai.. Khaali arghyaji hi kyun kishorefan bhai, aap, satyanshji, vitthalji, surajitji sabhi yahan pe respectful log hai..

  274. 274
    shukla de Says:

    Arghya ji,

    Perfect. Yodellings kishore was sophisticated. I think none could make impact in yodelling renditions similar to kishore.

    Kishore fan,

    It is a regular feature for Mr. Haldar & now Mr. Bhagchandani (has also joined) to make unnecessary comments. I have seen those posts in rafi forum which were totally unwarranted against Arghya ji, who has a equal respect and regard for other great singers viz., rafi, ghantasala etc. Leave it, they will correct themselves.

  275. 275
    arghya Says:

    Kishorefan 269.

    I know they keep a watch on this forum and keep on writing garbage articles like which song should have been sung by whom. They have got three problems:

    1. Reading problems.
    2. Understanding problems.
    3. Assimilation problems.
    4. Frustration problems.

    Read the last post by a “Mahagyani” Rafian called Nitish Sinha who had once said in a forum that “Kishore Kumar is a mediocre singer”. He says now that my interpretaion on low notes is hillarious(loz..), I should not dare talk about singing of HIM and I tried to project Kishore as a “bhajan samrat”. And read his post filled up with grammatical mistakes. As a “class conscious” people, they cant write in Hindi also like our beloved and down to earth Paramjeet. His comments are clear indications of the first three problems. One, he could not read my article properly and go to the end that I clearly mentioned Kishore does not at all feauture amongst the tops in devotional songs. Or, to be interpreted differently, this “gentleman” does not know the definiftion of Samrat. Anyways, again any of the first three problems.

    Now, then, he and Haldar and all says how dare you talk of Rafi’s singing.. Unfortunatey, we only talked about Rafi (and other singer’s) technical aspects only and not make garbage comments like this song of him should have been sung better by that singer.. Which is more hillarious I should say.. They are more knowledgable than RD Burman I must say. And Mr. Sinha, why dont you counteract your views with technicality? Oh, how can you? Your musical approach is again a “class conscious” one which taught you only to trash one singer and hail one.

    As I told you earlier, they are full of all problems. There is a guy called Unknown(or Ali) who keeps on gabbling around RD using Rafi more between 1978-1980. Ask that guy about statistical break up and I am sure he would reply from Islamic point of view(why Kishore converted to Islam for Madhubala…)… Superb logic I must say…

    Look at another guy called Haldar, who spent his entire life collecting Kishore songs which he can term “crap” and throw in the dustbin of history.. His lines like “Joker”,” Rafi would have killed kishore”, ” Kishore’s song went into dustbin”, ” A word against farishta and you are dead”, makes me feel as if he runs a Butcher’s shop in Calcutta near to Dover Lane(and got the inspiration of music from there also)..

    And of course the problem number 4 is beautifully picturized by none other than the leader himself. Who like an owl keeps himself awake in the nights and count the site visits in these two forums so that in the morning he can say “HE is more popular”..lolz.. Even if you tell him this is not the only site in this universe based on Kishore and provide him statistics of Kishore’s popularity, he gets frustrated and brings regionalism, foul mouths Kishore and of course his fans and goes home chilled with a satisfaction that he handled Kishore Kumar brilliantly.

    So, brother Kishorefan, in such a beautiful musical discussions, why to name of people who are looked upon as funny breeds by outsiders?

    As far as abusing me is concerned, it is highly immaterial. I have seen enough of this politics. And they also can’t tackle me with their half filled knowledge except foul mouthing and non musical and manipulated statistical things.. They know they cannot take part in this discussion
    except some copy paste things from Saregama or some interview excerpts from here and there. Their musical discussion is all about”Hello XXXXji, take my salute for such a divine article.. Although I also think these all songs should have been sung by our farishta which other singers sang, I think there are 50-60 songs more.. I think the following Kishore songs……..” Goes on and on and on..You just reply them with a burst of laughter and come back on musical grounds, dear.

    Cheers!

  276. 276
    arghya Says:

    Kishorefan/Raj/Vitthalji/Paramjeet and all other dignified members here:

    This forum started with a good intention to discuss various facets of singing, but if someone thinks that I am speaking nonsense here, please speak out. I would quit this forum and this site. We are never here to malign other legends but if someone gets hurt because of my points then please tell me. There are musically learned people like stayansh, surajit, srivasji etc. If they find my points do not make any sense or simply in bad taste, it is my request to them to clarify. I have very limited knowledge of music and I have said that time and time again. I just say something which are pretty obvious to me.. still if those does not make any sense please tell me and there would be no such discussion again.

    Thanks and I would no longer post anything here in this forum as long as this issue is not clarified. Thanks to all the people. Bye.

  277. 277
    mast mast Says:

    Arghya ji,

    People tend to talk against us when they don’t agree with our discussions, but I don’t think that should stop us from discussing. You and Kishorefan/Raj/Vitthalji/Paramjeet have maintained your decor and not degraded the legends. Please continue and we do not want to lose a member as you here. Thanks 🙂

  278. 278
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji,

    Please do not take things seriously. These “blaming games” have become a routine feature and surprisingly many silly comments have ensured that messages run into numerous pages. I am sure, if you walk out, even we have to walk out, because we will be missing a dignified yet honest music lover to share our discussions with.

  279. 279
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji and kishore fan ji,

    My request again, please do not take things seriously. Always eating sweet may also cause boredom, a mixture of hot item adds more attractiveness in such cases. Please treat these “blaming game comments” as such hot mixture – I hope then we can surely continue to enjoy.

  280. 280
    paramjeet Says:

    Mahagyani..hahaha.. Sahi mein jo aadmi kehta hai kishore sadharan gayak the woh mahagyani hi honge ya to koi nahayogi jinko sangeet mein moksha prapt hua ho…

    Tension mat lo, aese cartoon log bahut dekh chuke hai hum.. Inka ek hi kaam hai dusron ko neecha dikhake apne aap ko upar karna..

    Mujhe lagta hai dusre forum mein kya chal raha hai kya nahi yeh sochke yahan ka mahol kharab na kare..

    yahan pe main ek prashna rakhta hoon:
    Kishoreda ke saath saath filmon mein jeevan darshan gaano pe ek bahut gehra prabhav pada tha.. Koi is par vistaar se bole please…

  281. 281
    Raja Adhya Says:

    Arghya Ji Please Continue Here.Rightly Says Mast Mast Ji.Some People Talk Against Us Because They Don’t Agree With Our Discussions.Some Time I Think They Dislike The Truth & So They Try To Suppress The Fact.But This Is Never Happened.
    We All Enjoy The Discussions Which Going Here.

  282. 282
    satyansh Says:

    Anil,
    I don’t think I read too much between the lines in your posts. They were more like implied conclusions and that is why I told you to correct me if needed :). Anyways, good point in “…The natural scale of both the singers are more or less at par…”. I have always said that and all of us have tried to counter the fallacies that people propagated about notes that nobody but Rafi could touch. A direct question for you and you don’t have to answer it if you are not comfortable. Did you really say that Kishore’s voice was hoarse and that he doesn’t have much of a range to speak about, etc.? Just trying to clear the air and again, you don’t have to answer if you are not comfortable.

    This is just FYI with regards to implied conclusions (which were open for correction and you clarified your view in post 262) – In your previous post 253, you said “…What exactly I meant was that ‘I don’t like Kishore that much when he has to go down to the low registers, especially when he has to sing sustained low notes’. When he does it, he can’t project the fullness of his voice and therefore there is that murmuring feel (not to be confused with the whispery feel of Rafi when he hits the low notes sometimes). This is ‘crooning’ for me…”. and then in the same post 253 you said “…I was placing both of them in the same side of the net in my first post…”. To that I said “…You are attempting to place Rafi and Kishore on the side of the net (higher notes) where Rafi is better. Sure, we can talk about that too, but we can’t just dismiss that Kishore was better than Rafi in the lower octave. Again, I keep repeating (reminds me of the true voice forum days) that I feel that a couple of notes here or there doesn’t matter, it is more important to note how effective they are in those notes. Many songs can be adjusted to the “sa” of the person singing it especially HFM songs as long as the song still retains the beauty of the original composition. I still look forward to your other detailed replies on the other points in post 249…”.

    Anyways, good exchanging ideas with you. We don’t really need to talk any more since we are not getting anywhere (Point 5 aside, that was good :)). I just don’t think this is a constructive conversation in terms of output for anybody. Obviously, I hope you continue to interact with others – Paramjeet, Arghya, Surajit, etc. Sincerely (I mean it), good luck to you. Take it easy.

    Arghya,

    I will reply back to your question in post 261 in detail in due course. While how Kishore picked up yodelling is well-known, he did not necessarily always yodel like them all the time except for the basics that he utilized in various movies like Jhumroo, etc. His interpretations in songs like “Chala Jata Hoon”, “Na Koi Dil Mein Samaya”, “Thandi Hawa”, “Tum Bin Jaaon Kahan”, etc. impress me a lot, especially the ones where he extends and or breaks the words themselves and is not necessarily sticking to the often used “Yoo..D..Le..Ee..T”. (Please note, all good singers have their own interpretations.) There is one aspect here that I have yet to analyze completely and that is personally, I find the “O”s and “E”s sound better than the “A”s for some reason for some other singers (not Kishore, his voice in falsetto for “A”s is powerful too). I have spoken to you about this earlier. Obviously, Kishore does it all really well; maybe it is because of his powerful chest voice. Don’t think that is all since I have noticed that some other peoples voices sound thinner in the “A”s. (Paramjeet ji, aapka koi opinion ho to kripaya bataiye.) An example from “Chala Jata Hoon” is “Masti Keee” as compared to “Woh Alam Bhiii”. There are some people with extraordinary yodelling skills, however, I think it is important how you mix it with singing and I personally and subjectively enjoy the mix much more.

    I couldn’t message earlier, how did it get to you leaving the site. Pagal ho gaya hai kya. I have never seen you guys – yourself, Paramjeet, Vithal ji, KishoreFan, Surajit, Srivas, Lalit, etc. be rude to anybody. You are simply expressing your opinions. There is nothing wrong with that. I like Manna Dey a lot and you said you feel that Rafi brought classical/semi-classical music to the common man and you don’t enjoy Manna’s semi-classicals as much. While I don’t agree with you and am in agreement with Paramjeet’s post 267, I don’t take your comments personally since it’s completely your choice. It should be the same for fans of other singers. If somebody writes about you directly it is certainly wrong and uncivil, but please don’t take it personally. They might simply want you to get into a discussion with them, but I hope all of you avoid it since that is the better thing to do. We all know the hooligans amongst them giving death threats, etc; but some of them might also be good people, they probably just don’t adjust well to people who don’t agree with them and they might have their reasons. If this is the same Nitish from Orkut, I think he is a nice guy; he even shares his collection with everybody without any prejudice. I hope he gets to know you directly, it might help avoid misunderstandings.

    Kishore sang “Kuch to log kahenge, logon ka kaam hai kehna”. Listen to that and please continue writing :). BTW, I really like his style of saying “Baaton Mein”. Paramjeet ji ne ek bahut hi badhiya topic start kiya hai – “jeevan darshan ke gaane”. I know you like “Zindagi Ka Safar” a lot, please share your thoughts on those songs.

  283. 283
    Srivas Says:

    Arghya ji,

    Since you have specifically addressed to me, I wanted to clarify please. I do not think anybody questioned you in this forum. Rather mr. Kishore fan was discussing about the points in the other forum. So I see no reason for you to feel otherwise with regard to “this forum” and stop participating.

    I am sure Mr. Satyansh & Mr. Surajit are with me & you on this issue.

  284. 284
    arghya Says:

    Sincere thanks to Satyansh, Paramjeet, Vitthalji, Srivasji, Raja, Mast mast and all the fans.

    Actually I was not at all concerned with people threatening us or using cheap languages against us for discussing music. My concern is that out of our discussions, certain things might come out which might not be to the likes of all the fans uniformly.. So, unintentionally we might end up certain group of fans which is very unfortunate. If someone says X and Y are equally good in a certain genre, so that would definitely draw some analysis which might go any way between the two, but that does not at all mean that we are trying to malign any legend here…

    Satyansh./Paramjeet.
    Yes, I wil definitely write something on Kishoreji’s philosohical songs. It is a vast subject with so many songs which transformed this genre from a small seed to a ful grown plant over the years. He took this genre to a different level.

    Satyansh, I did not mean that “I do not enjoy Manna De classical songs.” I only meant that “Rafi’s classical songs get connected with me better”… As for popularizing this amongst the mass, I still say “I am open to correction”.. I wholeheartedly agree with Paramjeet also that after a certain period of time, the classicals all went to Manna.. This is very true.. After the songs in “TSMA” and “Sanjh aur Savera”, I think Rafi’s output in classical songs (or for that matter any singer’s classical output) drastically reduced and all went to Manna. That shows Manna’s class. The songs in “Mere Huzoor”(1968), “Budhha Mil Gaya”(1971), “Jaane Anjaane”(1971), “Mehbooba”(1976), “Padosan”(1968) and many more all demanded Manna De whereas other great singers were very much there in those movies.. That shows people’s acceptance or propensity towards Manna De in filmy classical numbers. A very good point raised indeed.

    Satyansh, I would be looking forward to your take on international yoodelling vis-a-vis Kishore in detail. We had a talk one day on the points which you mentioned. Would love to see a more detailed perspective. PERHAPS IN THE FORM OF A FULL FLEDGED ARTICLE if you time permits you.

    And as you know, I dont like to know personally any biased or “kattar” (extremist orthodox) person.. I have an allergy towards them.. That is my problem.. Or limitation you can say…

    Cheers!!!!

  285. 285
    Anil Says:

    Satyansh:
    Okay, I also feel we are not reaching anywhere. Just clarifying one poine that the side of the net is med-high notes rather than the high notes.
    I am not uncomfortable answering your direct querries. I just hope some of the more hard core fans don’t take offence.
    I’m no judge on the voice texture/property/quality and I’m no authority on HCM. So when I comment something on the voices I always prefix it with a ‘to me’, ‘to my ears’ etc. With this disclaimer I will proceed. I wouldn’t say Kishore’s voice is ‘hoarse’ as such. Generally speaking and towards the later stages of his career (say from ’75-’76) I find the Kishore voice a bit too ‘rough’ (I can’t find a better term), a bit too loud and realtively less crisp/ clear. Off course there are exceptions and off course this voice suited the persona/ image of the heroes of that period. To the vocal range- yes, I don’t find Kishore’s range much to talk about. Please note I have no intention trashing him. Just that I find 2- octave vocal range (which I believe is the case with Kishore) rather mediocre. Again, the vocal range is not everything and Kishore was ahead of many other reputed singers of HFM in this aspect.
    Here’s something which you didn’t ask me but I thought would share with you. It’s about what I think of Kishore as a play back singer. Kishore is an exceptional play back singer- definitely one of the better ones, not just in HFM but anywhere in India.
    All the best to you too.

  286. 286
    paramjeet Says:

    satyanshji,
    Jurmana movie mein ‘ e sakhi radhike bawri ho gayi’ suniye aur sochiye kyun classical manna de ji ko hi diye jaate the ek level ke baad..

    Jeevan darshan pe kuchh gaane bolunga…
    * zindagi ka safar hai yeh kaisa safar.
    * yeh jeevan hai is jeevan ka yehi hai rangroop
    * zindagi ke safar mein guzar jaate hai
    * tu ne humein kya diya re zindagi
    * jeevan ke din chhote sahi
    * ae zindagi hui kaha bhool
    * zindagi hai tadapna (arghyaji ne ek baar mention kiya tha yeh)
    * mera jeevan kora kagaz( third stanza suniye’ dard sehkar janam leta har koi insaan, woh sukhi hai jo khushi se dard seh gaya’ is se behetareen aur saral jeevan darshan koi depict kar sakta hai?)
    * ek raasta hai zindagi jo tham gaye to kuchh nahi
    * tum bhi chalo hum bhi chale chalti rahe zindagi.
    * jeevan se na haar o jeeenewale
    * jeevan meetana hai deewanapan koi pyar jeevan se pyara nahi
    * badi sooni sooni hai zindagi yeh zindagi
    * jeevan ke safar mein rahi milte hai
    * mera jeevan kuchh kaam na aya, jaise sukhe ped ki chhaya
    * apna nahi par apna sa lage..chalti ka naam zindagi hai

    Khaali itne gaane dhyan se sune, philosophical songs ke baadshah the kishore kumar… aur maximum gaane background mein bajte the aur hall mein ek adbhut watawaran taiyaar karte the.. Lavz kam pad jayenge woh romanch samjhaane mein..

    Ek aur akarshak baat hai kishoreda ki gayaki mein woh hai unke ‘background scores’ .. Music directors yeh gaane kisi hero pe picturize karne ke badle background mein bajaake ek impact create karte the movies mein…. Yeh chand gaane le lijiye:
    * mera jeevan kuchh kaam na aaya
    * mera jeevan kora kagaz
    * jo raah chuni tune
    * ruk jaana nahi tu kahi haar ke
    * zindagi ke safar mein guzar jaate hai
    * badi sooni sooni hai zindagi
    * man kare yaad woh din
    * tere liye maine sabko chhoda tu hi chhodke chal di
    * udaasi bhare din kabhi to dhalenge
    *Jab tak maine samjha jeevan kya hai jeevan beet gaya
    * yeh jeevan hai is jeevan ka
    * dharti ki tarah har dukh seh le
    Is mein to kuchh gaane aese hai jo kishoreda gaate hai background mein magar picturization hue hai heroines yani abhinetriyon ke upar.. Aesa ghazab bahut kam logon pe hua hai.. Aur bilkul bhi out of place nahi lagte the ulta gaane aur popular aur akarshak ho jaate the..

    Ise kehte hai playback singing..

    Yeh jeevan darshan aur background singing,, dono mein lajawab the kishoreda…

  287. 287
    arghya Says:

    Paramjit 285

    Nice that you started this topic on philosophical songs.. Really appreciable from you.. So many gems to be talked of..

    Have you seen the risk of death closely ever, Pramajeet? I have and I am still watching even today…. The day you see that you have a risk to live your life fully, Paramjeet, it would be Kishore Kumar whom you can grab and no one else.. He had taught us all the lessons.. The less I talk the better it is.. The beauty of some things lie in silence and not in absolute dragging eulogies.. I can only say one thing, the song “Yeh jeevan hai” showed me a different meaning of life altogether when I was very very low years back…

    Also, not necessaily the songs having “jeevan” or “zindagi” show or depict you philosophy of life… The absence of these two words can still make a deep and heavenly philosophy.. Listen to “Panthi hoon main us path ka”.. absorb the lines and the deep understanding with which our Guruji had sung the song.. When he renders “jaane kab tak chalna hai mujhe is jeevan ke saath….” it speaks so many unuttered words at a time..

    Listen to “Aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalun..”.. Do you know Paramjeet that this song was the chosen one by UNESCO( the wong of United Nations for Child and Society development) as an anthem in India??? Not a single other song can describe the aspiration and unseen dearms which a small child desires to have better… A world with no hatred, no pain, no grief, no tears- can there be any?? How can you describe a world which all of us aspire to have better than this song?? Is this not philosohical?

    Listen to “Jab dard nahi tha seene mein..” you can understand the meaning of living for others and not for you.. Isn’t it a lovely philosophy??

    Listen to ” Har koi chahta hai ek mutthi aasmaan….”, people talk so much about Madan Mohan opting out for Kishore in Laila Majnu, has anyone talked why Madan Mohan OPTED IN for Kishore here?? Listen to the depth and unsaid philosohy of life.. It is “ek mutthi aasmaan” which we all need just to carry off our lives.. Close your eyes and wish and it is a iece from the sky allotted to you which you want to be yours..

    Can write pages and pages on this topic.. Won’t suit to all the people or fans of other singers might find it boring.. So, would put a stop.. But, when you turn to the pages of philosophy in film music, you can not complete a single page without Kishore Kumar..

  288. 288
    SHYAM ZUTSI, FARIDABAD Says:

    mr. Anil.
    What r u saying? Are u serious? I read all ur posts and all are big time biased ones..

    If u say kishore’s range is nothing to be talked of by ignoring all the five notes which he could hit, sustain and technically sound perfect in udara and confining his octave range to 2-, then let me tell you there is nothing great to be talk of any filmy singer’s range.. I can tell you hundreds of major problems in hitting high notes(yes high, not low) of rafi sahab,. The notes where he practically shouts(or made to shout)… You take tthem as OK or natural and make his range biggger!!

    I can challenge you show me one point where kishore is incorrect technically in hitting low notes and i would show you five points where other singers were faulty in hitting high notes(rafi included)…

    Regards,

    shyam Z.

  289. 289
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,
    Aapne bilkul sahi kaha Manna Dey ke semi-classicals/classicals ke baare mein. Mai aapki post 267 se bhi bilkul sehmat hoon. Aap “Na To Karwaan Ki Talash Hai” sune to usme bhi Manna Dey ne kamaal gaya hai. Sunne aur samjhne walon ko samajh pad jata hai ki kaun kaise ga raha hai aur aap to yeh sab jaante hi hain – bolne ki koi zaroorat hi nahi hai. Mujhe “Aye Sakhi” gaana accha lagta hai, Lata ne bhi kitna accha gaaya hai. “Aayo Kahan Se Ghanshyam” mein Manna Dey ne “Ghanshyam” aur “Hai Raam” kaise sundar tareeke se kaha hai aap sune. Yeh geet gana koi asaan nahi hai. RDB ke kya kehne, kya kamaal ke gaane banate the woh. Waise sir, Kishore ke saath aapka favorite MD kaunsa hai aur aapko Kishore sabse acche kaunsi dashak mein lagte the? Aur Kishore ne itne saare genres mein gaya hai to aapko unke kaunse type ke gaane sabse acche lagte hain? Kripaya MD aur song-types mein top ke kuch choices batayein aur quality/quantity ka ratio dekhen, minimum quantity of songs aap decide karen.

    Arghya,
    You mentioned “Aa Chal Ke Tujhe” where Kishore gives hope to a child and gentle guides the kid to a world without sorrow and tears. The same Kishore also sang the lullaby “Chup Ho Ja Ameeron Ke Sone Ke Ghadi Hai” to a child asking him to go sleep. It is not a typical lullaby and more of a reality check. Again it is on the philosophy of life, but this time it is about the harsh realities – “tere liye rone ko bahut umar padhi hai”. Kishore did full justice to this song even when he told the child “lena hai jo duniya se usse cheen ke le le”. This songs was penned beautifully by the great Rajinder Krishan. Kishore had the ability to add a whole new dimension to songs on the philosophy of life by taking the listener through a gamut of emotions.

  290. 290
    paramjeet Says:

    satyanshji,
    mera personal favourite MD kishoreji ke saath teen log hai:
    1. Rahul dev burman
    2. Rajesh roshan
    3. Kishore kumar khud

    Uske baad SDB, laxmi pyare, kalyanji anandji, hemant kumar, salil chowdhri, c ramchandra bhi mujhe bahut pasand hai.. Aur haan ravindra jain sahab bhi kuchh madhur geet banaye the kishoreji ke liye..

    RD ki baat karein to mujhe unke fast romantic gaane bahut achhe lagte hai..’ yeh shaam mastani’, ‘o mere dil ke chain’, ‘kanchi re kanchi re’, ‘raat kali ek khwab mein aayi’, ‘o hansini’ mujhe bahut unique gaane lagte hai.. Waise to sabhi tarah ke gaane hai magar samvedanshil gaane jaise ‘kuchh to log kahenge’, ‘diye jalte hai phool khilte hai’, ‘hum bewafa hargiz na the’, ‘meri bheegi bheegi si’ , ‘o majhi re’ – seventies ke best of the nest gaano mein se hai.

    Rajesh roshan ke liye guruji ke soft timber mein romantic gaane jaise ‘dil kya kare’, ‘koi roko na deewane ko’, ‘main akela apni dhun mein magan’, ‘chhukar mere man ko’, ‘nazrana bheja kisine’ anokhe gaane hai aur saath hi mein udaas gaane jaise ‘udaasi bhare din’, ‘lehron ki tarah yaadein’, ‘aa re aja nindiya tu le chal kahi’, ‘ek dil sau dushman’ bahut hi pyare gaane hai.

    Kishoreji ke khud ke compositions pe teen baatein bolunga bas- jhumroo, door gagagn ke chaaon mein aur door ka rahi. Bas yehi kaafi hai 🙂

    LP ne sabse zyada variety gaane gavaye kishore se… Bahut lajawab gaane hai, kuchh melody mein kami hai beech beech mein, magar kaafi gaane historic hai.

    SD kishore ke us strength pe kaam karte the jiske aas paas koi bhatak bhi nahi sakta. bahut saare gaane hai magar jitna explorations RD ne kiya tha, utna SD nahi kare seventies se pehle.. Kal zee tv saregamapa pe SD Burman special tha aur kishore-lata ke teen behetareen duets gaye gaye wahan pe ‘ gata rahe mera dil’, ‘kora kagaz tha yeh man’ aur ‘tere mere milan ki yeh raina’.. Isi baat se ek cheez poochhoonga aap se SD ke best duets kisne gaye? Rafi-asha, kishore-lata, kishore-asha ya rafi-lata????

  291. 291
    kishorefan Says:

    Shyam Zusti ji – your post to anil ji here,

    Badiya post diya apne. I have seen scores of people, even today, even in antakshari programmes, picnic spots, singing kishore kumar songs, which in itself proves what is kishore.

    Anil ji,

    Your personal views are respected. One may not like a singer (however accomplished he might be) and it is his personal choice. However, one has to take into account the fact that whether majority of the people have a liking and appreciation for a singer. That “majority factor” plays a vital role and that has to be considered. Rafi, kishore, ghantasala etc. all have been appreciated by majority of the people, that is sufficient to highlight their greatness. Very few people might not like said singers, of course, which is their pure personal choice and in my view ‘subjective’ and their mind set which is counted among the ‘minority’ thinkers.

  292. 292
    arghya Says:

    Satyansh.

    Actually I was reading Times Of India yesterday and saw an author Anuradha Verma mentioning how the golden oldies are recycled to make jingles of products, remix albums or even movies hit.. And guess, which singer’s name topped the list 😉

    The Cadbury jingle which presently very popular in India(you might not be knowing owing to your stay in US) is nothing but the classic Sudhir Phadke composed number of Kishoreda “Din hai suhana aaj pehli taarikh hai..”

    I was discussing this earlier also., Movies after movies are recycling Kishore numbers( “Bachna ae haseeno”, “Karzzz”, “Aa Dekhe Zara”, “Oye
    Lucky lucky oye”, “Taxi number 9211” etc etc), products after products are utilizing Kishore numbers ( Nokia, Cadbury, Sonata etc etc), three movies on the life of Kishore are being made- one where Aamir Khan is going to play Kishore and the other Shreyas Talpade.. Thrid is not decided.. Documentories on Kishore shelved are being remade and re released.. Doesn’t it just show the real “stardom” which Kishore has? His son is still encashing on his father’s popularity on innumerable stage shows.. A whole breed of younger generation singers like Shaan, KK, Shankar Mahadevan swear by his name and keep on paying homage every now and then.. MDs like Jatin, Lalit, Anu, Pritam, Shantanu Moitra, Vishal Shekhar, Shankar Ehsaan Loy keep on missing Kishoreda for many of their compositions.. The biggest surprise came in the form of Rahat Fateh Ali Khan declaring himself as Kishore fan in spite of having an entirely different style of singing…

    Statistically Kishore Kumar sang 3105 songs(more than 100 of them unreleased), but his impact on the generations have been unmeasurable..

    What do you all say? Satyansh, Kishorefan, Paramjeet, Vitthalji, Surajit, Raja, Raj??

  293. 293
    arghya Says:

    Paramjeet 289.
    Although you asked the question to Satyansh, I would just enlist some best of the best duets of SD with all these four pairs you mentioned.. Perhaps would help all to judge..

    Kishore-Lata:
    1. Gata rahe mera dil.
    2. Kora kagaz tha yeh man mera.
    3. Shokhiyon mein ghola jaye.
    4. Aaj madhosh hua jaye
    5. Apne hothon ki bansi
    6. Hey maine kasam li
    7. Jeevan ki baghiyan mehekegi
    8. Tere mere milan ki yeh raina
    9. Hum tum ek nadi ke hai do kinare
    10. Gori gori gaaon ki gori re

    Interesting: Majority of them are based on Raag Pahadi.

    Rafi-Lata:
    1. Ek ghar banaunga tere ghar ke saamne.
    2. Dekho rootha na karo baat nazron ki suno.
    3. Dil Pukare aa re aa re.
    4. Palkon ke peechhe se kya tumne keh dala
    5. Yeh dil deewana hai dil to deewana hai
    6. Teri bindiya re aye haye teri bindiya re
    7. Tere naino ke main deep jalaunga
    8. Aaj junli raat ma dharti par hai aasman
    9. Baaghon mein bahar hai kaliyon pe nikhaar hai

    Rafi-Asha:
    1. Deewana mastana hua dil
    2. Jo ijazat ho to ek baat
    3. Jo hai deewane pyar ke
    4. Gunguna rahe hai bhanwre
    5. Achha ji main hari chalo
    6. Chand sa mukhda kyun sharmaya
    7. Kali ke dhoop mein chali ho rooth ke
    8. Aa ja panchhi akela hai( my most favourite from this pair)

    Kishore-Asha:
    1. Woh dekhe to unki inayat
    2. Chhod do aanchal
    3. O nigahein mastana
    4. Aankhon mein kya ji
    5. Haal kaisa hai janaab ka
    6. Are yaar meri tum bhi ho ghazab
    7. Tum jaha jaha hum waha waha(my favourite from this pair)
    8. Jaha bhi gaye hum
    9. Kab maane dil ke mastaane
    10. Thandi hawaon ne gori ka ghungat

    Whatz ur take???I must say SD did fabulous job with all these four pairs in four different times : Kishore-Lata(late 60s to 70s), Rafi-Lata(early 60s to late 60s), Kishore-Asha(mid 50s to late 50s) and Rafi-Asha(late 50s to early 60s).. There are duets from each of these combo in other periods also(and they are duly mentioned in my best list as well), but predominantly SD worked with them in this chronology..

    Subjectively, I would put my ranking as:
    1. Kishore-Lata
    2. Rafi-Lata
    3. Rafi-Asha and Kishore-Asha tied.

  294. 294
    paramjeet Says:

    satyanshji,
    Aap ka ek sawal mujhse chhoot gaya tha last post mein. Woh hai kaun se dashak mein mujhe guruji sabse akarshak lagte hai..mera jawab hai 60s aur 70s.. 60s mein unko industry mein ignore kiya gaya.. Magar iske liye unki personal life, industry biasedness, unke khudke issues sab milehue the..

    Magar 60s mein sabse PRODUCTIVE SINGER gayak kishore kumar hi the satyanshji.. Unhone kul 200 gaane gaye poore dashak mein aur us mein se 100 se bhi adheek gaane behetareen the.. Girl friend, jhumroo, half ticket, ek raaz, rangoli, mr. X, daal mein kala, guide, teen deviyan, shriman funtoosh,door gagan ke chhaon mein, bhoot bangla, hum sab ustad hai, jewel thief,payal ki jhankar, padosan, suhag raat, mahal, khamoshi, pyar ka mausam, duniya, do raate aur aradhana ke gaane na hi sirf lokpriya hue bal ki bahut hi behetareen gayaki aursangeet ke pradarshan bhi chhode hai.. Unke kam se kam 70% gaane bahut hi lokpriya aur sundar the 60s mein… baaki industry politics ko maaro goli…

  295. 295
    vitthal Says:

    Kishore fan ji and others,

    In the other forum, under topic ‘ if rafi had sung these songs’ post 127 is written by another individual known as Mr. Vitthal, – to which post I have clarified in post 130 in the same topic. I had requested the other individual to put a initial before his name. Hope, if anybody from here visits there, will not get confused about the posts.

  296. 296
    vitthal Says:

    Dear music lovers,

    Here is a live version of lata ji singing jo wada kiya woh nibhana padega – tajmahal

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou0B9T89L0g&NR=1

    A vast difference can be noticed in this live song vs. the film song. Even in terms of melody as well (this song appears just ordinary in terms of voice as well as expressions – as if an ordinary singer is singing)

    I think technologically the voices, melody etc. are adjusted in recordings and when they sing in these live concerts etc. the effect is much below the recorded ones. If you hear the above live song, I feel that even younger singers today in some t v singing programmes etc. appear to sing more well in terms of voice as well as melody factors.

    Arghya ji,

    Kishore’s popularity no body can dispute. I had already remarked earlier – accomplished singers of golden era have cast a influence on succeeding generations, which is hard to measure.

  297. 297
    vitthal Says:

    contd..

    Even some of rafi live songs, I have witnessed the same and was surprised to note the difference.

    But astonishing fact is – the instruments are as melodious as in recorded song – why the difference for only singer’s voices. A honest doubt arises – really, if not for sound adjustments and recording effects, whether the voices of those established legends are really melodious on natural basis (as we hear many younger people singing many film songs in t v programmes in many programmes like saregama etc. these days) – is a wonderful question and doubt to make a research.

  298. 298
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    Sorry mujhe reply karne mein samay lag gaya. Beech mein ek din jab maine check kiya to site down thi. Aapka sawaal mere liye bahut mushkil hai kyonki mera gaanon ka taste mahaul ke hisaab se badalta rehta hai. Yeh sabhi gaane alag alag samay par zyada pasand aate hain aur mujhe nahi pata ki inhe overall kaise pick kiya jaye as far as preference is concerned. Yadi mai subjectively yeh dekhun ki abhi sabse zyada kise enjoy kar raha hoon (not even thinking about the technicalities) to mujhe to Kishore-Asha ke melody aur harkaton bhare gaane kaafi pasand hain aur iss samay woh mujhe zyada appeal kar rahe hain. To abhi ke liye mera choice (merely picking and not rating these) hoga (kal phir badal jaye :)).
    1. Kishore-Asha (Chalti Ka Naam Gaadi ke gaane bahut mazedaar hain, “Woh Dekhen To” mein Kishore ne kamaal kiya hai, etc.)
    2. Kishore-Lata (“Tere Mere Milan Ki”, “Shokhiyon mein ghola jaye”, “Gaata Rahe”, “Kora Kagaz” mujhe bahut zyada pasand hain.)
    3. Rafi-Lata (“Tere Ghar Ke Saamne” is one of my all time favorites. Mai iss movie ke geeton ko bahut yaad karta hoon. Waise aap “Dekho Rootha Na Karo” ke male aur female singers ke antare ki pehli lines par dhyan den)
    4. Rafi-Asha (“Accha Ji Main Hari” aur “Aaja Panchhi Akela Hai” bahut badhiya geet hain.)
    Solos mein lekin Rafi aur SDB ki jodi zyada behatareen lagti hai. Badi mushkil hui hai upar ke 4 pick karne mein. Aap please apne views batayein.

    Waise mujhe bhi Kishore ki 50’s, 70’s (minus a few songs) aur khas karke 60’s ki awaaz sabse zyada pasand hai. 60’s ki awaaz bahut powerful thi, usme bahut bass tha aur woh meethi bhi thi. Of course, unke RDB, Rajesh Roshan, LP aur KA ke saath to bahut acche gaane hue hain aur mai unhe sunkar bahut khush hota tha aur aaj bhi hota hoon. Par mere bahut se favorite Kishore sad songs aur mainly comedy songs 70s se pehle ke hain. “Dukhi Mann Mere” mere all time favorite sad songs mein se ek hai. Comedy gaane to hain hi “Half Ticket”, “Chacha Zindabaad”, “Girlfriend”, etc. Aur Kishore ne jo apne khud ke geet gaye hain unka kya kehna. Aapne jo jeevan darshan ke gaanon ke baare mein kaha woh bahut sahi hai. Unn geeton ka kaafi logon par bahut gehra prabhav pada tha. RDB ka ek aur geet tha “Bhali Bhali Si Ek Surat”, usme ek dusre gaane ka kuch influence hai. Mujhe uss gaane mein Kishore ka “bhali bhali” kehne ka tareeka bahut pasand hai.

  299. 299
    Prabhanjan Says:

    Hi all Rafi lovers!
    I have a very useful information regarding Rafi’s Telugu songs. Recently when I went to Calypso music shop in Bangalore I was pleasantly surprised to see that Saregama (formerly HMV) has released a CD of 20 Rafi songs in telugu. THis is followed by 30 more songs by other singers which had hindi versions earlier. And it cost me just Rs.75/-. The title of the album is “Voice of Mohd. Rafi – Telugu Film Songs” and its serial number is M48071.
    Its a must have for all Rafi lovers 🙂 .
    Hope that you all find this info very useful 🙂

    PS: I know that this KK fans website. But I am sure that many of them here are also music lovers first and also many of them are Rafi fans too. Needless to say that if I come across KK albums in any other languages than hindi and bengali, I will be the first to give such reference here.

    @Arghya: What was said about SPB following KK style is certainly true. But to give more insight, SPB first followed Ghantasaalaji, and then KK and Rafi ( don’t know the exact order). This is just as like KK trying Saigal style. Like KK became famous when he was KK, so is also true about SPB. Talking about next generations, almost every playback singer in the late 90’s and 00’s in the south also imitated SPB. This will continue till eternity.
    I have more clarifications to give about what was written about SPB vis-a-vis Ghantsaalaji in this thread. But I won’t do that coz its meaningless. One thing that I have noticed that very few people give SPB whats due to him. I mean there is not one singer in entire India who dominated all three languages simultaneously for close to three decades except SPB. Still this is not rated much. Its ok, who cares as long as we know the truth 😀

  300. 300
    arghya Says:

    Vitthalji 295/296:

    Sir, here is a live show recording of Kishore Kumar:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uu7lVMbA960&feature=PlayList&p=5326385DE57C33B2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2

    And here is the original one:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAlD6zehT5E

    Now compare! You would be surpirsed to find exact identical match of the live song with the original recorded one. In the live clip, you would find people having questioning whether this is live or not.. But it is live. Because, in the second antara in the live version Kishore commits a mistake in pronouncing.. Listen carefully, you would find out 🙂

    Actually, stage performance is very spontaneous and with no margin of error.. See, the tribute of Kishore to Rafi “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare” was spoilt with poor orchestration and equally poor recording quality.. Also, Kishore chose to sing that song in stage just 10 minutes before the start of the function..

  301. 301
    arghya Says:

    Prabhanjan..

    Nice to see you here again… 🙂

    Thanks a lot for that info on Telugu songs of Rafi..

    By the way, you had promised me once that you would write in detail about the “sharabi” songs of SPB here.. When can we expect that buddy?? :)..

    It would be sooo interesting..

  302. 302
    paramjeet Says:

    arghyaji..

    Raymond ki ad bhool gaye malik??? Saamne yeh kaun aaya dil mein hui hulchul???

    Jai guruji ki!!!!!

  303. 303
    Prabhanjan Says:

    about the “sharabi” songs of SPB here..

    Arghya: Will be delivered tomorrow 🙂

  304. 304
    A Singh Says:

    Good Write Up

    Was not aware that Kishore has sung so many devotional songs.

  305. 305
    arghya Says:

    Yeah, the Raymond one. It was real good. The way they have correlated the postlude of the original song with the theme music of Raymond.

    But the winner is ” Din hai suhana aaj pehli taarikh hai” from Cadbury I suppose. The recreated superhit of Kishoreji has been awesomely popular as a jingle.. Also to mention Nokia’s use of ” Zindagi ke safar mein” was quite attractive. I work with Bajaj Auto Limited as a state head in Orissa for auto loans. Recently, we launched a new bike Discover M- 100cc and the official presentation during launch was…any guess? “Rote hue aate hai sab, hansta hua jo jayega..” and then in the midway of the presentation to depict the beauty of the bike the song which was used was “Tere chehre se nazar nahi hathti”.. And No, I did not create the presentation :D.. It was a national campaign..

    There are many many many examples the way media and corporate promotional team rely on to Kishore Kumar due to his out of the world mass popularity. The Unicef, UNESCO using Kishoreda tunes every now and then in their campaigns.. It seems the most popular theme song for maximum NGOs is “Aa chal ke tujhe main leke chalu..”

    By the way, I was passing by ISKON temple last evening and a gift shop near to it was playing “Krishna krishna bolo krishna..”. You can’t ignore Kishore Kumar anywhere…

  306. 306
    paramjeet Says:

    satyanshji,
    Bahut badiya rating hai!!!!

    Mere hisaab se bhi duet mein kishore-Lata aur Kishore-asha ke baad hi baaki log aate hai.. SD ne jo duets kishore ke liye banaye woh unsurpassed hai.. kya zabardast chemistry hai boss kishore lata mein.. Theek jaise do bhai bahen ga rehain hai.. Behetareen understanding.. Aesa nahi ke ek mike pe khade ho gaye aur dusri dusre mike pe aur apne apne hisaab se gaane lag gaye….

    Kishore aur asha mein bhi wohi chemistry!!! Kya zabardast chhed khaani thi dono mein.. Ek dusre ke prati sadbahv magar takkar dene ki utni hi chaah!!! Maza aa jata hai boss!!! ashaji ki ladkiyon wali ada aur kishoreda ke mast chhed chhad…

    aap ne woh gaana suna satyanshiji?? Bahut pehle ashaji aur kishoreda ne gaye the Muqaddar mein… Ek do teen char baaghon mein aayi hai bahar, khemchandji ka geet.. Pehle se hi mast rehte the dono…..

  307. 307
    Balarykar (Prabhanjan) Says:

    SPB and The Drunkard Raaga

    Many singers have successfully sung the drunkard songs. Lets see how they have all fared.

    Rafis in your face drunkard song “Choo Lena Do Nazuk Hoothon” gives that necessary courage for a drunkard to coerce his wife into drinking. Its another matter that they fail almost always without realising that they are not the late Rajkumar to succeed. Rafi’s another song “Koi Saagar Dil Ko Behlata Nahin” truly conveys the message that no amount of alcoholism will ever help to overcome a heart break. Nights are longer than days. Yes, Einstein also confirms the same in “Din Dhal Jaye”.

    Kishore Kumar has his own share of deaddictable songs, especially play backed for the legends Amitabh Bachhan and Rajesh Khanna, though we will not list them here for lack of appropriate e-space. His gem “Peenewalon ka peene ka bahana chahiye” from the movie “Haath Ki Safai” for Randheer Kapoor reflects that the drunkard is like a buffalo. Just like the buffalo continues its walk irrespective of the season, so does the drunkard irrespective the emotive state. A lesser known, but a really good d-song of Kishore Kumar is from the Mithun Chakravarty starrer “Daata” and the song is “Roona dhona chod chod de” in which he urges the damsel to forget all the sadness and raise the drinks towards the heaven. Its questionable though how a drunkard can go to heaven. Oops! Of course, from hell a toast can be raised in the direction of the heaven. Madness is the way out. A simple proof is that the poet says the fire arising of sparks can be extinguished but not the ones thats lighted from the rains. Thats the way its said in “Chingari Koi Bhadke” at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpM0jPd6-7w .

    Talking of the damsels and the drinks brings us the legend Pankaj Udhas. His truly inspiring song (strictly for the drunkaaards only) “Huwi bahut hi mehengi sharaab, ke thodi thodi piya karo, piyo magar rakho hisab, ke thodi thodi piya karo” tells us how to handle the inflation smartly. Yes, inflation DOES affect the drunkards. Why did you ever assume that there is no Drunkonomics in the first place? Going through all the Pankaj Udhas songs one is led to believe that the brothel is truly a good place to hang out and the prostitutes are women of wisdom!

    Yes, this article is not at all about any of the singers mentioned above. Please forgive me for my drunkard walk. Probabilists have been eternally inspired by the random (drunkard) walk and will swear that a simple application of the Borel-Cantelli lemma shows that the below listed events occur infinitely often with probability one (that is, infinite recurrence is a certainty):
    (a) a probabilist returning to the drunkard (random) walk;
    (b) a drunkard returning to the wine shop;
    (c) the author of this article mentioning SPB.

    Yes! I am writing this article about SPB which when expanded gives us infinite letters, viz., Sripathi Panditharudalaya Balasubrahmanyam, and I have always wondered why the name “Balasubrahmanyam” is written in infinite different ways though there is enough empirical evidence that each of those variations have been repeated infinite times. I now swear to stick to SPB only. By now the reader is supposed to have understood that the “Drunkard Raaga” is infinite dimensional. With all due respect to Rafi, Kishore Kumar and Pankaj Udhas, and many other competent singers, its SPB who has managed to sing the most variations within Drunkard Raaga. While there have been singers who use this raaga, many commit the cardinal sin of singing the Drunkard Raaga. They just don’t realise that one does not sing in this raaga. Its the ultimate truth in this universe that the drunkard raaga gets in your body, soul, and everything within, and then whatever you say/sing/blabber/shut-up, it is the DRUNKARD RAAGA. Lets explain this raaga a bit more.

    The Drunkard Raaga has two components. First is the signal, which has a format. This format may be simple, complex, or chaotic. Whatever the format, the functionality is always known. To be more specific, its like a computer program which can do whatever its been instructed to do. There is no surprise here, though we all appreciate it. Many singers do this first step with grace. And then comes the cardinal sin. They all stop here only without bothering about the second component. This step is also like the half part of the drunkard walk. The drunkard has to walk and many people tend to do it without ever realising that the direction has no “left” or “right” written on it. So after a while they are all doing either a right or a left. This is where the great SPB excels. That damned raaga is in him which enables him to erase the “left” and “right” each time he takes a step. Thus the picture is complete and this is really the second component of the drunkard raaga. The ability to erase the names is what is famously known to the probabilists as the “White Noise”. This white noise effect is truly there in almost all the drunkard songs of SPB. Having done all the theory of the drunkard raaga in SPB, now lets have a sample of some of his drunkard walk.

    To begin with, let it be made very clear that the focus here is SPB’s drunkard walks in hindi. This language has not exactly been a forte of his. Still, we will be satisfied with this “Dariya”. So what if its not “Saagar”.

    Watch this song on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozyCjgtzUJA& . The movie is “Ek Hi Bhool” and the walk begins at “Bekhudi Ka Bada Sahara Hai”. See how uncertainly he goes around it and feel the noise at “Kitne halki hai, kitni boojhal hai, koi aurat nahin ye botal hain,band isme jahan saara hai”, and then back to “Bekhudi Ka Bada Sahara Hai”. Listen how well, noisily in truth, he reverts to “Beekhudi kaa”. I am sure that Anand Bakshi must have been wondering who wrote those lines. Spot on the bang SPB, bang on the spot, SPB. The song was cast on Jeetendra. In this entire song, the feel is of having drunk whiskey. Don’t ask me how.

    There has been this flop of a movie called “Santaan”. This movie was completed in a record time and again Jeetendra comes to do that walk. The situation is that the son ditches parents, and the father realises that Tulsi and Ved Vyas wrote simple encyclopedic facts on Ramayan and Mahabharat. The perennial challenge was to write something about the parents struggle. And thus goes the song “Tulsi ne Ramayan Likhi, Ved Vyas ne mahabharat. Kyun kisine kabhi naa likhi, maa baap ki kahani”. The music by Anand-Milind had probably been a decade late. Nevertheless, it powers into the drunkard performance of SPB. Upset with the iconic saints, this has a shade of DesiDaru. After all, the character is not rich guy. I know you are missing that there is no youtube link.

    Lets be done away with Anand-Milind. If they had Sameers company in the previous song, the great Majrooh Sultanpuri wrote the truly noisy words “Banke bigad gaya kaam, very sorry, I am so sorry, ulte huwe badnam, very sorry, I am so sorry”. I am not too sure if it was picturised on Salman Khan or Amjad Khan, or both. It had its roots in the telugu movie “Prema” where SPB did the honors earlier. Both are good and intoxicating. Some songs are lost and not yet captured at youtube.

    A mother is singing rhymes to put the baby in the world of dreams. And a bastard listens to it. How does he feel? The torment, that anguish, justified frustrations, etc, all in the company of a huge quantitative arrack of daru is capture here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC3Qzwuqg4g . The movie is Benaam Badshaah and Laxmikant-Pyarelal are at it again.

    A lover separated from his rich princess is tormented and is in search of the mirage in the Sahara desert. Unsurprisingly, that mirage for a broken heart is perennially a bar room where Mithun Chakravarty is seeking solace. Though there is no lip-sync here, its undoubtedly a intoxicating songs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dJPrQbJavY . Though the actor is striving and showing the desi version, the song actually reflects the rum(ification) and Alka Yagnik complements like a true princess missing her abode. This pair has given such marvelous duets that I actually feel its one of the most underestimated duet pair in the hindi film world. Trust me, its so underestimated that it puts to shame even the less due that is generally given to SPB in bollywood. Well, thats another article in waiting from the author. I hereby solemnly declare that once the detoxification of this article occurs, this will be certainly evaluated to the ranks it should be. Nadeem-Shravan are among the very few who gave too good songs with SPB.

    That “jeeye to jiye, kaise bin aapke” is probably the biggest hit drunkard song of SPB does not make it necessary that I should also bore you with it. Its popular, its everywhere. Whats there for me. I mean, come on. If anybody starts a random walk in the crowd, they must be kicked. I won’t write more except thanks to Nadeem Shravan and of course Salman Khan.

    Women, especially from the subcontinent, hate the drinks and then the drunkards. It comes as no surprise that on one occassion, the drunkard could not take it any more. He is a mard first, and then a drunkard. So, there he goes. “Naa baaba na baaba, na baaba naa, aurat ka bharosa na baaba naa. haan baaba haan baba, haan baba haan, ye ek na do na teen, ye saari ki saari hai bewafa”. Its important to understand here that though I am in the noisy state, its difficult for me to give up something thats rhyming and repetitive. Its really annoying that the reader thinks the noise won’t like the signal. Its around the signal (drinks) that we owe our existence. So, jai ho signal ki. Just guess the lyricists state of mind and the torment he under went.

    “Ek, Ek se Bhale Do”. I do know that this is a song about unity and not about some stupid mindless walks. But I am blabbering about ek (SPB), and ek se bhale do (SPB with Kishore Kumar). Now add R.D. Burman on the top of it, and tie us to the chairs and keep Dimple Kapadia before us. You are certainly joking if you presume we won’t be intoxicated. Whew! Now, thats truly taking the square of a random walk and destroying sanity. Its fun to be insane. He he he! This “scotch on the rocks” performance is known as “Yun hi gaate raho” from the classic “Saagar” movie. Its difficult not to find its video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XV4N-Xu2K8

    We now declare that the shop is closed for today. Yes, we know we have to have it one more time. We did not try the “Desi Daru” unlimited version. Did we? Frankly, I don’t know, and it does not matter. Its shame to keep the hisab. I introduced drunkonomics, but did not I declare earlier that I am very weak in the “ics” of “academics”. So, what will we do. Anupam Kher on street and madness on other side just never ever happens. Uparse bandar ko sharab bhi de di. So what happens is “Saari umar mein, is jeevan ki daud mein bhaga ghoda”. LP were certainly bad and knew the word “havoc”. Movie goes by the name of “Sansaar”.

    To close out, a few pointers. Its likely that SPB is probably the only singer ever in India to have received a National Award for a random song. I mean how damn good was it from the movie “Saagara Sangam”. Its telugu, admitted. This song is “Thakita thadimi”. Watch it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs38L1jIQC0 . And all the above songs can be put in one single “Vaa Mancha Vaa”. This is a tamil song. Its so notorious that it converted a simple next-door girl name into a volumptous sexy babe. Smitha later became famous as “Silk Smitha”. Thats the power there is in the drunkard raaga when it came out of SPB.

    Thanks for the tolerance and admittedly you need to curse Arghya (he asked me to compose the entire above poetry), SPB Bangalore team (RGN, AR particularly), and SPB Mumbai team (VK and NK). Back to the room. Buyyyyyee.

    PS: The author is a teetotaler and does not encourage in any way to get into alcohol practices. Also, each of the artists mentioned in this article is respected and no potshots are attempted to put one above other. All the mistakes are owned by myself. Thanks again.

  308. 308
    arghya Says:

    Prabhanjan 306. Awesome writing.. I enjoyed every bit of your writing and the sarcasms towards drunkards..

    Actually I had once expressed my viewpoints that in Sharabi songs , to capture the exact essence of the song is more of an achievement singer rather than singing a song rarely with musical value.. SPB might have been unfortunate to miss out the “musical value” in his drunkard songs, but his enactment and capturing of essence of alcoholism has been FANTABULOUS!! I would not go into the arguement of who “enacted alcoholism” better- Kishoreda or Baluji- but, I must admit the improvization which SPB did in drunkard songs are amazing..

    Prabhanjan:
    1. Surprised to see no mention of the song from “Yeh To Kamal Ho Gaya”..There were two SPB songs ” Naujawaon mein bacha tha ek main kunwara” and ” Yeh duniya ghum rahi hai”.. I think there also SPB did beautiful job although I am not sure whether the “nasha” was of alcohol or something else( charas, gaanja etc. 🙂 ) but whatever, the enactment was good.. Although for the second song, the original Bengali Kishoreda one was very powerful and funny and no alcoholism in the song ( claimed to be the first rap song in films) and remain unsurpassed, SPB did nice act in the Hindi one ..

    Here is the Kishoreda Bengali one in 1958:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgjMoGiSueU&feature=related

    And here is SPB version in Hindi with booziness:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9mPlVx-9k0

    2. You are also right in identifying that singing sharabi songs has to be there in your blood.. Otherwise the enactment would never ever reach perfectionism.. Although there were talents like Rafi( a teetotaller) and Kishore( teetotaller for most of his life except perhaps towards the end) who could get the mood and the feel right and there was Mukeshji who was quite indulged into drinking but never was quite able to ENACT the sharabi mood that well(I am not talking of singing and musical value of his songs.. In those things, he was right up there)..

    Lastly, it is an exceptionally well written article.. Although it is a Kishore Kumar forum, may I request the admin to convert this post into a full fledged article if Prabhanjan permits? Otherwise such responses would again get unnoticed..

    Keep it up Prabhanjan!!!

  309. 309
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    Mujhe to “Aati Hai Yaad Humko” bhi timepass gaana lagta hai. Lekin mere paas uss movie ke gaane nahi hain. Iss samay bahut kam gaane hain, sirf Saigal ke kaafi gaane ab bhi mere paas hain kyonki unn geeton ko bahut sambhal kar rakhta hoon :). Kuch saal pehle tak mai har din Saigal ke gaane pakka sunta tha. Ab to khair bahut kam gaane sunta hoon, zyadatar yaad par hi chalta hoon. Kishore/Asha ke Sajjad Hussain ke saath bhi acche duets the. Woh bhi aap please sunen. Aapko Manna-Lata ke duets kaise lagte hain?? Waise Manna Dey ka ek gaana tha “Naach Re Mayura”, usse aap kripaya sunen. Bahut hi behatareen geet hai, par shayad yeh kissi picture ka gana nahi hai. Aur aapko agar acche Punjabi ya dusre folk gaanon ka gyan ho to woh bhi share kijiye. Mai to ruka hoon ki koi Hemant aur Manna Dey ke Bengali gaane share kare.

    Prabhanjan,

    Nice post on “drunkard” songs. I liked the song “Thakita Thadimi” (hope I spelt it right). I would take the liberty of exploring / adding at a high level a few other dimensions of D-songs. I tend to listen to many songs of intoxication translating in my mind the source of intoxication from liquor or a similar substance to something else.

    Personally like Rafi’s songs of intoxication a lot – “Maine Peena Seekh Liya”, “Mujhe Le Chalo”, “Hum Bekhudi Mein Tum”, “Jungle Mein More Nacha”, “Sawan Ke Mahine Mein”, etc.

    Can’t get enough of Kishore’s “Chingari Koi Bhadke” – it is an outstanding song. Kishore is awesome again in “Kuch to Log Kahenge”, “Yeh Kya Hua”, “Hai Hai Hai Yeh Nighayen”, “Yeh Laal Rang”, “Inteha Ho Gayee”, “Sachai Chup Nahi Sakti”, “Ladkhadane Do Mujhe”, as a drunk Rishi Kapoor announcing his love for Neetu Singh in “Khullam Khulla Pyar Karenge”, etc.

    Agree with you in that “Drunkard Raaga” has many dimensions and if one includes the cabaret types (sharab-cabaret mix), Asha has soo many good ones, she’d be hard to surpass – “Piya Tu Ab To Aaja” (RDB), “Maine To Paani Piya Tha” (Keemat / LP), “Jaam Bhi Hai” (LP), “Aao Huzoor Tumko” (OP), “Tujhe Pyaas Hai, Mere Paas Hai” (SDB), “Sheeshe Se Pee” (Ravi), “Pee Ke Hum Tum Jo Chale” (SJ), etc.

    Lata too has way too much variety – “Do Ghoont Mujhe Bhi Pila De” (RDB), “Kaise Rahoon Chup” (LP), “Meri Taqdeer Aaj Mujhe Kahan Layee Hai … Zamana Yeh Samjha Ke Hum” (CR), “Yeh Meri Zindagi” (SDB), “Haan Ji Haan Maine Sharaab” (RDB), “Na Dharam Bura … Panditji Mere Marne Ke Baad” (LP), “Jaane Kya Pilaya Tune” (SDB), etc.

    There are so many other D-songs in HFM like “Abhi To Haath Mein Jaam Hai”, “Kabhi Khole Na Tijori Ka Tala”, “Dulhan Khoobsurat Hai”, “Thodi Si Jo”, “Chhalkaaye Jaam”, “Botal Se Ek Baat”, “Pyaas Meri Bujha Na Payega”, “Tumhari Mast Nazar”, etc. If you add Bhang to the mix, you’ll find a few other numbers as well – “Jai Jai Shiv Shankar” being somewhere at the top. “Jhoom Barabar Jhoom Sharabi” deserves special mention in my mind (this song has potential).

    Without giving this much thought, few of my top D-songs in no particular order (excluding classics from Saigal) would be “Na Jao Saiyaan”, “Mujhe Le Chalo”, “Hum Bekhudi Mein Tum”, “Chingari Koi Bhadke”, “Zindagi Khwaab Hai”, “Inteha Ho Gayee”, “Jhanak Jhanak” (picturized on a drunk Raj Kumar), “Huzoor Iss Qaddar”, “Mujhko Yaaron Maaf Karna”, “Aao Huzoor Tumko”, etc. There are obviously many ghazals too; Jagjit Singh’s “Thukrao Ab Ke Pyaar Karo … Mai Nashe Mein Hoon”, Ghulam Ali’s “Hungama Hai Kyon”, etc. If one includes “westernized” songs, I feel Asha and Lata will dominate the list.

    It is interesting to note that generally many of Rafi’s songs of intoxication are around dejection (although he does have “happier” ones too like “Mujhe Duniya Walon Sharabi Na Samjho”, “Chal Mere Bhai” if singing to a drunk man counts :), etc.); while Kishore tends to sound bold (it might have to do with the picturization and the situation in the movie along with their singing styles) when he depicts intoxication. No comparisons here, it is just a generalization. I’m not sure if anybody here has a list of all sharabi songs.

  310. 310
    Balarykar (Prabhanjan) Says:

    “Although it is a Kishore Kumar forum, may I request the admin to convert this post into a full fledged article if Prabhanjan permits?”

    Firstly I must thank the moderators for having accepted the post 🙂
    It will indeed be a great honour if they convert it into a full fledged article 🙂

    Though I listened YTKHG, I never saw those videos.My fav song from it remains “Hum tum hum do raahi”. This song is so beautiful that I never registered the remaining songs. Thanks all again.

  311. 311
    arghya Says:

    Satyansh,

    It is a general characteristic of sad songs of Kishore and Rafi about how they “enacted” the pain.. I can never ever imagine how Kishore would have sounded something like “Hum tumse juda hoke mar jayenge ro ro ke” that too especially they way Rafi had enacted “ro ro ke”… Equally difficult to imagine Rafi enacting the way Kishore had uttered “zindagi ko bahut pyar humne diya , maut se bhi mohabbat nibhayenge hum”… The only “weak emoting of sad song” from Kishore I can remember is “Teri duniya se hoke majboor chala” where the hero really sounded weakish and it was a Rafisque sad song.. Kishore did a great job there with a good check on the melodrama… Something out of my imagination for Kishore is “Babul ki duayein leti jaa”, can’t just imagine even Kishore singing that song..

    Anyways, in sharabi songs, Kishore is always known to “enact the required booziness” flawlessly.. Just too good.. Amar Prem, Prem Nagar, Amanush, Sharabi etc. had an alcoholic background where Kishore delivered beautifully..

    By the way, no one mentioned “Badi sooni sooni hai zindagi” in Sharabi songs!! What a composition and how deep rendition that was.. Simply matchless.. A grand finishing to the association of my most favourite MD and most favourite singer 🙂

  312. 312
    paramjeet Says:

    satyansh bhai
    Haan maine bhi suna hai hemantji ne bengali mein bahut madhur gaane gaye hai.. Unki awaaz mein bahut geherai thi. Unke uchharan mein problems the hindi mein.. ‘kehne do’ ko ‘kehene do’ bolte the..mere hisaab se weh ek bahut hi dignity ke saath gaate the.. Hai na?? Thoda hemantji ke upar vistaar mein bole..

    Prabhanjan bhai
    Great dost.. Very good article. Do u had SPbala song ‘ sard sard raaton mein’?? Bahut mazedaar gana hai.. Pl share the song here..

    Arghyaji
    Agreed. ‘teri duniya se hoke majboor’ mein thodisi majboori jhalakti hai jo kishoreda ke sad gaano ke hisaab se unique hai.. Woh gana suniye ‘kaisa hai mera dil tu khiladi’ main shart lagata hoon koi aur aese damdaar gaake dikhaye woh gaana aur woh spontanity jiske saath kishoreji ne mood changes kiye poore gaane mein..

  313. 313
    paramjeet Says:

    waise ek aur prashna hai prabhanjanji se.. Kya aap wohi prabhanjanji hai jo mohdrafi.com mein the?? agar haan hai to main surprised hoon.. Mujhe nahi pata tha ke aap SPB bhakt bhi hai.. Agar hai to main bhi ek chhotasa raaz batata hoon, mera bhai bahut bada fan hai SPB ka.. Woh chennai mein engineering karta hai aur bahut bada fan ban gaya hai peechhle teen saalon mein SPB ka.. 🙂

  314. 314
    satyansh Says:

    Arghya,

    Good addition in the form of “Badi Sooni Sooni Hai”. It is amongst my top 10 sad songs ever. I’m not sure if Amitabh was drunk in that song, but I think he did have a drink in his hand so one can call it a D-song too :). While I totally understand the difference in Rafi and Kishore’s style of emoting in sad songs, I am not sure what you mean by depicting a weak hero. Are you talking about say what he does in the line “Ashkon Ko Mai Pee Lunga”, where he makes it sound like the actor is losing control of himself (almost sobbing)? Would you say that Devanand in “Dukhi Mann Mere” was depicting a weak hero? He looks weak and dejected, but Kishore doesn’t sob through the song. “Dukhi Mann Mere” has remained my favorite Kishore sad song, he maintained amazing texture through that song as well. Here is Jagjit Singh singing it – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id-FffE4mCM

    Kishore’s sad songs have a tendency to grip right from the beginning. He puts tremendous pathos in his songs. As far emoting in sad songs is concerned, Mukesh and Hemant (with his unique style) were right up there too. Of course, Rafi was outstanding in serious socio-political/personal introspection kinds, not necessarily pathos-laden though. I love what Kishore does in songs like “Jab Dard Nahi Tha”, “Khiza Ke Phool”, etc. too. It is fascinating how he can sing comedy songs so naturally and then sing these amazing sad songs – I can’t stop marvelling at his genius.

    Can you guys (yourself, Paramjeet ji, Vithal ji, Prabhanjan, Srivas ji, Surajit and others) list your top 10 favorite sharabi, sad and comedy songs? Just personal preferences (mine keep changing from time to time :)).

  315. 315
    arghya Says:

    Satyansh,

    “Depicting a weak hero”.

    Yes, sobbing is one part of it. Honestly, the sobbing style of singing has long been out of fashion in the industry..I am also not very fond of emoting songs in that way, as if you are trying to pull sympathy towards the singer and not the song.. Anyways, that is a pure subjective view. But, this is a view where I can at least say that even Lataji thinks that way!!

    http://www.ambarish.com/articles/kishorekumar/Kishore_Lata_comments.PDF

    Read the above article, very interesting..She says ” He(Kishore) meticulously avoided sobbing in sad songs which was the practice those days.”

    I am surprised Satyansh, as the praises of Manna De is taken as genuine(which has to be of course) and the praises of Lataji is taken as “Politically maneuvred statements” by a certain group of people! Anyways, that would be diverting the topic.

    I think you got my point much earlier 🙂

    By the way, my top 10 Sad songs are:
    1. Jagmag jagmag karta nikla chand
    2. Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare
    3. Aansoo bhari hai yeh jeevan ki raahein
    4. Chingari koi bhadke
    5. Zindagi ka safar
    6. Koi humdum na raha
    7. Kabhi khud pe kabhi halaat pe
    8. Dukhi man mere
    9. Badi sooni sooni hai zindagi
    10. Zindagi ke safar mein

    I dont know whether we can put “Woh shaam kuchh ajeeb thi”, “Kuchh to log kahenge”, “Man kare yaad woh din”, “Tumne mujhe dekha” and “Kahi door jab din dhal jaye” as proper sad songs or not, I think I would categorize them in sentimental song and not pure sad.

    By the way, the above list also is very much changeable.. Songs like “Jin raaton ki bhor nahi hai”, “Husn bhi hai udaas”, ” Koi hota jisko apna”, ” Ghungroo ki tarah bajta hi raha” and “Saathi na koi manzil” are so close to follow, my choice might turn anyday.

  316. 316
    Vitthal Says:

    Dear Arghya ji, Paramjeet ji, Satyansh ji & others.

    Here is a song of ghantasala from the great film Devadasu (Dilip kumar in hindi destroyed his hindi print after seeing this telugu film of ANR and again acted in hindi – after seeing the acting of ANR)

    The song is purely sharabi, tragedy & melodiously composed. -A fine mixture of melody, tragedy & sharabi effects in voice of ghantasala – 1953 film.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTLe6NnSdUY&feature=related

    For your views, dear music lovers.

  317. 317
    Vitthal Says:

    contd…

    further, as kumar ji says here in his posts, any music lover, in order to fully grasp a song from major angles i.e expression, diction, pronounciation, language command etc. one need to have a fair grasp of knowledge of that language, otherwise, in my personal view, one can only stop at appreciating the singer at voice and technical level itself (in many cases more so if the voice is melodious). Even when I hear SPB tamil songs or kannada songs, i generally do not appreciate his songs, (he may have been perfect there but my lack of knowledge of tamil or kannada becomes a………) similar to his telugu songs (because of my knowledge of telugu where I could appreciate SPB more). Even in telugu, as stated by many including SPB, the diction, expression, pronounciation, bhava effect etc. are so chaste and perfect in ghantasala that no other playback singer in telugu industry has displayed such talent. Even today SPB stresses much on language pronounciation – SPB as he had the association of ghantasala – he is certainly better than other playback singers of current day in terms of telugu pronounciation, which he has improved a lot compared to his earlier days of 80’s. But still even SPB does not come close to ghantasala in terms of expression, diction and pronounciation of the highest chaste telugu language in which ghantasala was ghantasala only. (no offence -prabhanjan ji -these are my pure personal views)

    Paramjeet ji, satyansh ji, arghya ji, Could you please stress on the language pronounciation and command of rafi and kishore. Because I have observed in many cases for e.g. jindagi is pronounced by rafi whereas zindagi is pronounced by kishore ( I am unable to make the point more clearer – hope you might have understood it) Who is perfect in language – whether both are correct or both are limited in pronounciation – because mukesh pronounciation again differs.

  318. 318
    Vitthal Says:

    Prabhanjan ji and all others,

    contd.. to previous posts

    With me, even it is the same for ghantasala too – some of his tamil songs – even I have reservations for this unique singer there too, when I hear his songs – he might be perfect there ? (again perhaps purely lack of knowledge of tamil language) I can only appreciate his melodious voice and technical ability – and there have been cases where I did not feel so much comforable with his tamil songs, as I am comfortable with his telugu songs. (perhaps due to my telugu language knowledge)

    Again sanskrit, perhaps one of the universally acclaimed languages, I have seen whosoever expert had heard ghantasala – claimed that more greater perfection cannot be seen. Such was the sanskrit language command for ghantasala.

    Finest example will be the syamala dandakam of ghantasala in this regard (which has received the greatest applause of the greatest singers from the music industry) Perhaps Sri Vas ji & even surajit bose ji would be able to throw more light on this – A wonderful composition in sanskrit simultaneously sung in 8 ragas – in highest possible pitch for a composition (perhaps the highest sa note in final octave is comfortably sustained by ghantasala in this)

    Arghya ji, would be able to appreciate it fully – as this was the original composition of Mahakavi kalidas itself (I think he was bengali – am I correct Arghya ji)

    Here is the link for syamala dandakam (I would have been happier if the quality of audio would had more clarity – In film this rendition simply is out of the world where awesome clarity is displayed and the same quality is not present in you tube link, However one can have a fair view of the rendition as it will be of immense interest for music lovers)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3w5omAMF98

    I request all the music lovers to post such mindblowing renditions (need not be nearer or similar) from any language so that it can be enjoyed by music lovers and our knowledge in music can be enhanced (language, singers etc. being no bar).

    Satyansh ji, – since, as I understand from Arghya ji that you are based in US – I think if our friends agree – even you can share some nice western compositions for hearing please , which will be another area of musical discussion here.

  319. 319
    Vitthal Says:

    and lastly, whosever has MASTERED telugu perfectly has declared it as the best among languages (as it is such a difficult language from grammatical wise too). This i feel proud to state because, dear friends, because I too am a telugu man – of course I am equally well versed in hindi and english as well (perhaps more than telugu – laughs)

    I request paramjeet, arghya ji to please share some insights into bengali language – it would be great. I have visited calcutta many times, but would not have been able to get at bengali language – even my very near friends are bengali’s and they have told me that if one has to learn bengali, it can be easily learnt with little effort. Arghya ji would be the right person to share his invaluable experiences here. I think too much of postings have come from my side – apologies if any uncomfortable views are posted – these are only for sharing with music lovers and my friends here.

  320. 320
    arghya Says:

    Vitthalji..

    Post 315-318. Very informative post. Thanks a lot. You have raised very good points here. And since you had asked for my views(which indeed is a pleasure for me, really I am not at all qualified enough to answer all of them), I would just add some of my opinions there.

    1. kudi yedamaithey: Very melodious song. Beautiful murkis.. Enactment of booziness was also good. Although I doubt after completing an entire bottle of liquor(around 750 ml bottle it seemed) whether a “untrained singer”(Devdas) can take such beautiful murkis and taans :)..

    2. Pronounciation/Diction: Satyansh is the best person here in this forum to talk on this topic in detail. I personally do not remember Rafi sahab ever pronouncing Zindagi as Jindagi( unless of course it is intentional from a playback perspective like his pronounciation in “Hum kaale hain to kya hua” or Manna’s pronounciations in Padosan in south indian accent). He was quite perfect in pronounciation and holds advantage over all the other singers except Talat Mehmood in the industry IMHO.

    There are some typical slips which all the singers used to undergo while singing.. Some typical errors were:

    a. Hemant, Manna and Kishore: Bengali errors… Pronouncing “khwab” as “Khaab”(of course, not always) .. Hemant was couple of notches down below Kishore as Paramjeet had mentioned in his last post pronouncing “kehna” as “kehena”.. Kishore is said to have committed mistakes like pronouncing “pha” as “fa”..

    b. Mukesh had that “dehati” pronounciation with many times pronouncing “sha” as “sa”( “nasheeli” as “Naseeli”)

    c. Talat: Although have not heard him extensively(especially his earliest singing in the mid 40s), his diction and pronounciation was very perfect and very urban.. His urdu dictions were the clearest of all IMHO

    d. Rafi was also almost flawless.. Sometimes he used to have a Punjabi accent in his songs,especially in the 50s, something like “hai” as “hyai” with slight twinge of “y”.. And sometimes his “bha” used to sound like “ba” with “h” getting silent..( especially in his sad and romantic songs) like this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XibpJBQ4as

    Listen to the start of this song how Rafi pronounces “kabhi” with the “h” almost silent.Proper urdu speaking people especially the ghazal singers wont like this pronounciation.. As a song, although it is an exceptionally well composed and well sung song. Just to put forth the topic on which we are discussing.

    3. Bengali language: As we know Vitthalji, like many of the languages in India, Bengali also hails from mother Sanskrit. Kishore was very poor in Bengali and used to commit mistakes in pronounciation.. Even his milestone Bengali song which we had discussed earlier “Ki ashay bandhi khelaghar” had some pronounciation mistakes( “keu” pronounced as “kehu”).. He almost every time used pronounce “chand”( which in bengali is pronounced with just tinge of touch on “n” unlike Hindi where the “n” is pronounced fully) in the Hindi way.. Only his Tagore songs are dictionally perfect as he was extra cautious while pronouncing words written by none other than Rabindranath Tagore.

    So, in a nutshell I would conclude saying that all singers had their “style” of pronounciation.. On diction and pronounciation, I would say Kishore was not that good in Bengali in many songs, in Hindi he was quite atttractive even in those “khaabs” just as Rafi was appealing in his “kabis”..

    🙂

  321. 321
    Balarykar (Prabhanjan) Says:

    @Paramjeet ji: Here is the youtube link for the song “Sard Sard Raaton Mein” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUT8uXJhTv8
    Yes, Asha Bhosle gives extra dimension to this song. You are sure to enjoy this duet of them to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCVCR815DuU This song is from the movie Tohfa. Undoubtedly, one of the best songs of SPB.

    Talking about SPB, let me share a few things. I have met this old man (65 years only) 4 times during the last 20 months. If he needs any of his kannada songs, the first thing he does is contact our Bangalore fan group. He is very very cordial man. Such a simple guy that if he is in his house (which is by the way where your brother is also staying) and you walk in, nobody will stop you. Anybody can walk in his home and if you call him on the residential phone number, and if he is there at that time, the phone will be promptly answered by him. I can give his phone number and address too if you ping me at prabhanjanacharya@yahoo.com

    I see that you are a bit surprised by my (big) post after all those at mohdrafi.com. Let me explain it this way. Do you think there are cricket fans who consider them self Sachin fan first and then Sunil Gavaskars? In that way I am SPB fan first then Rafi, KK, et al. I am not sure about many legends, but I know one thing for sure.

    With SPB its very simple for me. In the morning I can listen to his Sanskrit devotional songs (over 500 at least). His kannada, telugu, and tamil devotional songs add more than 5000. And then listen to his “Mard Bhare Geet” (how many heard of this criteria of songs) during shaving and breakfast, must sum to 1000. When in traffic, I can listen to his breathless songs (Shankar Mahadevans was later). In the afternoon, I can listen to many of his romantic songs, this is certainly in excess of 5000. For the evening too I can continue the romantic songs. In the garden and a bit late in the night, his sexy songs (again in excess of 2000) come handy. Finally, in even late in night, if some baby kids are crying (about 200 songs), I can make them listen his “lori” songs. For me thats a complete singer.

    Most important category of SPB songs: Suppose you want to harm somebody. The best way would be make them listen 15000 crappiest of the crap SPB songs which he sung in the late 70’s and 80’s. That living being, irrespective of whether male or female, human or animal, is bound to die. I am sure that many legends fan will argue with me that their singer is better than SPB in this category or that category mentioned in the previous paragraph. But these “reality killer” songs will be unrivaled. So great is my fav singer. 😀 😀 😀

    @Vithal sir: I just want to bring your notice a few facts about SPB pronunciation. In tamil, the grammar requires that when “Solli Solli” (same word said twice) is said, the first time its pronounced as “solli” only. However, when the next consecutive time its pronounced, it must be done as “choli” and not “solli”. Not even the best of tamil singers do it right way. Next, listen to AR Rehmans album “Jana Gana Mana” in which our national anthem has been sung by many singers. Only one singer will stand out in the right pronunciation category and you can find out who s/he is 🙂

    You say that “But still even SPB does not come close to ghantasala in terms of expression, diction and pronounciation of the highest chaste telugu language in which ghantasala was ghantasala only.”
    Yes, I do know that Ghantasaala is excellent in Sanskrit pronunciation. Putting SPB with him is not acceptable even for me. Both have rendered Bhagwad Geetha with a time lag of maybe fifty years and I know that its the earlier version that Andra Pradesh listens. However, please look at the effort thats gone in the later version too :). Moreover, Ghantasaalaji is a freedom fighter too and musician class apart. Yes, I have a list of many things where SPB does not match up to others. That does not bother me though, cause if SPB has to what Ghantasaala did, then I definitely don’t need SPB. Similarly, if you are looking at others from this angle, the question that is legitimate is not if others scale up to him. Its just that why look at other singers at all.
    To summarise, lets look from another perspective. Newton and Einstein are two of the tallest scientists to ever grace the planet. Can somebody say that Newtons better coz Einstein used calculus which Newton invented? Newton inventing calculus is the greatest thing which everybody accepts. However, Einstein carried forward in a way which is as important as inventing calculus itself.
    Similarly, Ghantasaalaji came earlier and did great things. Not denying it. But its important to carry it further. P.S: I am not saying that ITS SPB who carried further, but just reflecting that even if there is ever a singer who does it this way, its likely that it won’t accepted.

    Finally,you have rightly said “no offence -prabhanjan ji -these are my pure personal views”. I respect them a lot and just reflected on the way it looks to me. Just fyi, I heard that Ghantasalaji had sung about 2900 songs in telugu and his most die-hard fan collected 2200 of them. Next 20 years he scanned AP 10 times over but did not get even a single distinct song. So sad about it 🙁

    PS: its true what a SPB fan goes through. In kannada, they say SPB is nowhere near P.B. Srinivas. In telugu they say that SPB does not come any near Ghantasaala. In tamil, he is put down in favor of T.M. Soundrajan. His diction is faulted in hindi. His devotional songs are not considered as “right up to there”. However, there is a long story to be told. 😀

  322. 322
    Balarykar (Prabhanjan) Says:

    @Satyanshji: I will prepare my list over the weekend

  323. 323
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    Maine Hemant Kumar par ek post likhi thi apni site par, usse yahan paste kar deta hoon. Link hai http://satyansh.com/smf/index.php?topic=39.0

    Uss samay mai true voice forum mein likh raha tha aur kisine kuch poocha tha to isliye Rafi ka bhi naam iss post mein aaya tha. Of course, yeh to maine jo criteria likhe the unka saransh hai, gehrai to aap khud hi samajh lenge. Shabdon ko gaate samay toDne par jo maine kaha hai uspar thoda dhyan den to aapko Hemant Kumar ke gaanon ka ek bahut khoobsurat pehlu nazar aayega. Uske saath aur kuch bhi nazar aayega, par usse kehne ki zaroorat nahi :). Unki Bengali accent ka zikar maine bhi wahan kiya tha, par accent ke bawajood unki Hindi samajh aati thi. Jaise Rafi ki bhi thodi Punjabi accent thi (“Suhani Raat” gaane mein jaise unhone “Dhal” shabd kaha, jis tarah ek Punjabi Hindi mein kai baar baat karta hai :)), par woh Hindi bahut saaf bolte the. For example, Rafi ka “khargosh” ka “kh” kehne ka tareeka mujhe bahut pasand tha. Of course, Hemant ki to thodi heavy accent thi aur Punjabi generally Hindi saaf bolte hain.

    Yeh lijiye, Manna Dey ke do bahut hi madhur geet. ek geet ki baat maine 1-2 din pehle hi ki thi. Jai ho Anil Biswas aur youtube ki :). Agar kissi ke paas yeh geet hon to please mujhe email karen. Manna-Lata par aap tipaNiyan avashya karen.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEppdGSTKIs (Manna aur Lata ki jodi ke kya kehne)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10gMzRacC2Y (Naach Re Mayura – kitni madhurta se veh swaron ke saath khele hain, Sa par sa)

    — Hemant Kumar —
    Hemant Kumar was exceptional with flow in all types of songs, especially romantic and sad songs. While he had an inkling of Bengali accent (for example how he says “rehane”, “sehane”, etc. in “Ya Dil Ki Suno Duniya Walon”), he still spoke clearly. Like Kishore, he can also be heard saying “Khaab”, instead of “Khwaab” at times (as in “Tum Pukaar Lo”), but I discussed this aspect earlier and it should not be confused with his overall pronunciation. He had a deep voice different from the Kishore power that meant he could sing low-pitch mellifluous tones that would touch the audience in his own style. There were little nuances in his low notes, but they were still outstanding.

    Hemant Kumar did not really incorporate actors’ personality into his singing like Kishore or Rafi even though he sang for many popular actors of his time. As far as adapting to an actor (not genre) is concerned; for texture, Kishore was the best amongst the legendary singers mentioned and in actors’ style, Rafi and Kishore were both awesome.

    Hemant Kumar’s humming was “arguably” better than everybody else. He had a unique style of saying words, he did not pause midway between a word or let the words break (I will say he did this the least based upon what I have heard since I have obviously not heard all the songs) and his breathing patterns during the song were exemplary. This helped maintain the flow of poetry and generated pathos and melody very unique to Hemant Kumar. This was different from the pathos generated by Kishore or Mukesh, the sweetness infused by Rafi or Talat, the rasas evoked by Manna Dey, etc. He did all this while maintaining clear pronunciation (in a Bengali accent). In pronunciation Rafi, Kishore and Manna Dey (amongst the ones I already spoke about) would be better than Hemant Kumar.

    I have received some feedback requesting I elaborate on certain things like scatting (share more tongue-twisters is one request I got ) and few other aspects I have mentioned. I’ll probably discuss the others in due course. Elaborating on the breaking of (pausing between) words; coming from a background where both music and poetry are given a lot of importance, I have seen some interesting arguments on the same. Poets/lyricists strictly don’t like words to be broken into parts and want singers and music directors to accommodate accordingly. Singers and MDs feel it’s not always straightforward. A wider consensus amongst people I know (and the one I agree with) is to avoid breaking up words unless it adds to the expression. Breaking word(s) does not always hurt song(s) and I will give a few examples below (with my poetic justifications which people can very well disagree with). There are other examples where the pause between word(s) could have been avoided, but did no harm to the song because of the high calibre of the song. To find examples of songs where breaking a word hurt the poetic representation is an easier exercise and I leave that to the reader. It’s very commonplace in newer/current Hindi songs wherein lack of expression is already a widespread problem. In general, I think it would be better to not break the words where possible. In “Suhaani Raat Dhal Chuki” (one of my all time favorite songs), the word “Intezaar” is broken in the line “Tadap Rahe Hain Hum Yahan, Tumhare In..tezaar Mein”. This one can have a poetic justification in that “‘In..tezaar’ kar rahe hain to ruk ke kehne mein harz hi kya”. Although I know some knowledgeable people would argue otherwise since Rafi often broke words and one has an example of how Hemant says “Intezaar” in “Tum Pukar Lo”, I would go with the poetic justification I came up with to satisfy myself since to me the pause sounds beautiful if I think about it this way. Another example is the word “Betaa..biyaan” that is broken in the line “Jahan Se Mai Betaa..biyaan Leke Aaya” in the song “Mujhe Le Chalo”. I have examples from other singers too, but used these because I have recently been talking a little more about Rafi.

    For a few specific examples of Hemant Kumar’s expressiveness we have the way he says “Uff…” in the song “Jaane Woh Kaise Log The Jinke”; “Hairat” in the song “Zara Nazaron Se Kehdo Ji”; “Tujhe Kya Mila” in “O Zindagi Ke Dene Wale”, etc.

    A few great songs of Hemant Kumar with exceptional emoting are “Ganga Aaye Kahan Se”, “Yaad Aa Gayee Woh Nasheeli Nigahen”, “Yaad Kiya Dil Ne Kahan Ho Tum”, “Yeh Raat Yeh Chandni Phir Kahan”, “Jaag Dard-e-Ishq Jaag”, “Gagan Jhan Jhana Raha”, “Chuppa Lo Yun Dil Mein Pyaar Mera”, “Jhir Jhir Badarva Barse”, “Main To Heer Ka Hoon Deewana – Ek Chaand Ka Tukda”, “Tumhi Mere Meet Ho”, “Ja Dilruba, Tere Saath Chala Dil Mera – O Saajana”, “Aa Gupchup Gupchup Pyaar Karen”, “Hai Apna Dil To Awaara”, “Na Tum Hame Jaano”, etc.

    Hemant Kumar was also a music director par excellence and he sang several of his own compositions in films such as Naagin, Bin Badal Barsaat, Kohra, Khamoshi, Anupama, Beel Saal Baad, Sahib Bibi Aur Ghulam (no Hemant songs as far as I can remember now), Bandi, Shart, etc. Some of those awesome compositions Hemant rendered himself are “Yeh Nayan Dare Dare”, “Bekarar Karke Hame”, “Vande Maataram”, “Ya Dil Ki Suno Duniya Walon”, “Yeh Mast Nazar Shokh Ada”, “Tum Pukaar Lo”, “Jai Jagdish Hare”, “Zara Nazaron Se Kehdo Ji”, “Mohabbat Jisko Kehte Hain”, “Dekho Woh Chaand Chupke”, “Arre Chhod De Sajania”, “Kashi Dekhi Mathura Dekhi Dekhe Teerath Saare – Tere Dwaar Khada Ek Jogi”, “Na Yeh Chaand Hoga”, “Saanvale Salone Aaye Din Bahaar Ke”, “O Zindagi Ke Dene Wale”, etc.

    While I am talking solely about Hindi music, I’d like to encourage readers to research and share Hemant’s songs in Bengali music circles, particularly where Rabindra Sangeet is concerned. It gives a perspective into Hemant Kumar’s Hindi film music as well. Amongst other things, there is a lot I need to learn about that aspect of Indian music.

    A rare song of Hemant Kumar for a Pakistani movie “Hamsafar” is “Raat Suhaani Hai” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgVxcwXnx44

  324. 324
    Vitthal Says:

    Prabhanjan ji,

    A nice and informative post. Thanks a lot sir, for the same.

    You are right. I too heard that close to 2500 songs of ghantasala have been collected from his die hard fan. It is also said that unfortunately, many of the songs of ghantasala have been lost ??? It was stated to my relative in 1972 by ghantasala himself that he had already completed 10,000 songs by then, although I have read somewhere that in total ghantasala had sung around 14800 songs (I was told that these include all padyams & sanskrit slokas as well along with private songs and other recordings including songs- a padyam & a slokam were taken as a separate song). I think the padyams and slokas (where he has sung them in hundreds) etc. are not taken in the count of 2900 songs of the die hard fan ? There is a live All India Radio interview of ghantasala in his website, where he himself states that he completed 8800th song very recently in 1971.

    Refuting all exagerrrated claims of rafi fans that rafi has sung 28000 songs and lata has sung more than that, it was clearly established recently (even in rafi forum) that both these singers have not even crossed 5000 songs. (even google says so ) ???

    However, I am aware & I believe that SPB has sung the highest songs in India (more than 20,000) and next is P suseela (more than 15000) Am I correct, Prabhanjan ji ?

    As somebody was stating that Kishore kumar had sung close to 3000 songs – perhaps Arghya ji could confirm that.

    Arghya ji – thanks for the informative post on bengali language and other inputs there.

    Paramjeet Saab – aap kahan gayab ho gaye – kya hamara post par apke uttam inputs sun sakto hoon.

  325. 325
    satyansh Says:

    Vithal ji,

    You have made 2 interesting categories of points (I’ll reply back regarding the second category of points [Posts 315-318] soon) that we can all talk about –

    A) [Posts 295 and 296] While your point about singing live and if recording tricks made singers of yesteryears sound better than they were might sound strong, I think it is a fair point and definitely deserves a reply from someone who sits in a recording studio (which isn’t me, I’m just contributing my two cents). I wouldn’t dismiss the existence of good singers in today’s reality shows as I always believe that there can be better or equally good singers at some point of time since the musicians seem to be getting better. I am not so sure about the MDs, the lyricists and peoples tastes in general :). So many people like vulgar things and poetry in HFM has gone out the door. Anyways, coming back to point, I’d like to bring the following to your attention.

    1) Please see Lata’s age at the time of recording. I think she must be around 67 at the time. During a live performance most people watching live pay attention mainly to a singer singing on queue and don’t pay attention to most other details. Watching it on video is a totally different thing and you might have caught on to the tempo and the part where she sounds offkey. I can assure you that there are instances, albeit fewer, of this even in recorded songs of some singers – you just have to pay more attention.

    2) While I am no authority whatsoever on recording, it would be fair to say that the technology available now is far ahead of what Lata or Rafi had. There is no reason why today’s recording studios can’t reproduce what they had in the old times (please note that we have not lost older technology, merely bettered it). So if we were to accept that the singers in today’s TV shows are better, why don’t they sound better than yesteryears’ singers in recordings? For example, compare Kishore’s “Khaike Paan Banaras” to Udit’s newer version. This is not one of my top Kishore songs and while I like Udit’s voice, he is nowhere close to Kishore in terms of bass, power and Kishore’s special paan-chewing effect :). They can adjust the key of songs today, I am not sure if they did that back in the day. A good example of replicating a song of yesteryears’ is Sonu (while I am not too fond of his emoting mainly because I have heard very few new songs, I think he is an outstanding singer) singing “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale”. I had given the link earlier, but it’s not there any more. Here’s an interesting (unrelated, just for fun) clip of Sonu – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwKmKEBp9lc

    3) “…If you hear the above live song, I feel that even younger singers today in some t v singing programmes etc. appear to sing more well in terms of voice as well as melody factors…as we hear many younger people singing many film songs in t v programmes in many programmes like saregama etc. these days…”. Are you assuming that these TV programmes don’t do anything to the song recording? I can’t tell for sure, but feel that might not be completely true. I don’t think any of these TV shows are really live, most of them might be pre-recorded and the recorded song(s) might have been corrected / doctored using available technology. Coming back to age which is a big factor as well, what is the general age of singers in TV shows?

    4) While it is not applicable in this case as we speak of the great Lata, there is a difference between playback singing and singing. I don’t dismiss singers in TV shows, but Lata is a great singer and would be pretty hard to match. Please note that in front of the mic, the voice sounds drastically different; especially when you are in the recording studio and all the little nuances get caught. Surely, I have seen that today they can use software to correct that, but that is a more recent invention. When singing live on stage, people do try to adjust the bass, treble, reverb, etc. to match the song to what it would sound during the recording. But, they cannot do much if there is a change in tempo during the live recording or if the singer goes offkey.

    5) Regarding the calibre of yesteryears’ singers, I’d like to you consider how many ORIGINAL songs they had to sing. Please note that it is much easier to copy a song than to sing it the first time. The singer has to think about how to say a particular word, what to lay stress on, how to enact pain, happiness, etc. On the other hand, I’d add another thing. It is harder to copy another singer note for note and it is easier to sing the same tune in your style, maybe adjust the tempo a little bit, take the song to your “Sa”, etc. So, I feel if todays MDs started making good songs (I do think there are some good ones like “Aankhen Teri”) and allow singers to explore their own styles, maybe they can create gems too. That being said, coming up with an original or unique way of singing is no easy task. Kishore was a master at this. Not just sad songs, also look at his comedy songs. I don’t understand what inspired him to make those weird sounds or tell Salil that he would sing “Aake Seedhi Lagi” in the female voice as well or sing in that weird voice in “Jhuk Jhuk” or do the “Hing Na Nalay” in “Mere Bhole Balam”, etc. This is one of the reasons I admire Saigal so much. He was the original interpreter.

    I agree with you that this is certainly an interesting topic to research. I’d request others to please comment on Vithal ji’s excellent point.

  326. 326
    arghya Says:

    Prabhanjan.. Post 320

    15,000 crap songs!!! :O
    I think that should also go to Guiness Book maan! Lolz..

  327. 327
    arghya Says:

    Number of songs by a singer:
    ———————————-

    Are we talking here about “individual songs” or “total songs which include all the live shows and performances resulting the singer singing many individual songs 15 or even 30 times(depending on the popularity of the song).. I think Kishore had sung “Ina meena deeka” no less than 40 times on various stage performances in his life.. As Uttam Singh had said once for many years Kishore used to compulsorily sing this song in his stage shows..

    Anyways, talking of “individual songs” Kishore had sung roughly around 3100 songs, Rafi around 4700 songs and Lata around 6000 songs.. Point to be noted, not any of the figure is exactly correct as there are quite a few unreleased numbers still left to be explored.. But roughly the figure is this..

    Now combining stage performances and shows, no one can claim an exact figure.. I am yet to see any person who claimed to have ALL the live show songs of Kishoreda.. Even how many shows Kishoreda had done in his life, that figure itself is disputable, forget about the number of songs in totality..The closest figure which I got was around 16,000 songs for Kishore and around 21,000 songs for Rafi.. Lata is more than 25,000 they say.. This second piece of figures are far more inconsistent than the first one..

    But, all these number crunching is immaterial for me.. It is for statistitians thesis.. Singers like Kundan Lal Saigal left unprecedented impact on generations with his only 200 odd songs with no tracking of live shows those days and many of his recorded songs no longer available nowadays.. A proper singer can move the entire world with one good song only- what is the need to race for numbers?

    These are all my views though.. I also very much keep track of statistics( but there are many many many better statisticians than me), but somehow, it is only because in the fear of missing out some rare gems which I have not heard and not because I want to prove any point for a singer..

  328. 328
    Vitthal Says:

    Satyansh ji,

    Nice debate. Thanks for it.

    My conclusion will be : established legends of the golden era of music (playback singing) are certainly far ahead than the current generation people because without advanced technological systems they could create a effect which touches directly the hearts and souls of individuals spanning generations. There was “perfect originality” effect & factor in their artistic contributions. The same cannot be/may not be said of any of the artists today.

  329. 329
    Balarykar (Prabhanjan) Says:

    “However, I am aware & I believe that SPB has sung the highest songs in India (more than 20,000) and next is P suseela (more than 15000) Am I correct, Prabhanjan ji ?”

    These numbers are very very tricky. Let me try give some insight. The core group of SPB fans are currently having 4K tamil songs, 3K kannada songs, and 3k telugu songs. Of the 3K telugu songs, SPB+P.Susheela duets are just 300. If you look at P.Susheela website (psusheela.org), they have posted 1334 of her duets with SPB only. So our extrapolation is that SPB has about 10-12K in telugu only. Note that this does not include any of the private devotional songs. Even in the worst case (for SPB fans) his telugu songs are not less than 9K. It should be noted that in kannada there was no rival to SPB for close to 20 years. His kannada songs easily are more than 7K. Ditto in Tamil. So, these three languages film songs easily add to 23K.
    Lets see in hindi. Two years back when we had a collection of all known hindi films of SPB, that number was just 200. Digging very very hard and trying every possible south-connected movies, this number stands at 450 songs. We are sure of reaching 700 mark (this has been confirmed by SPB himself). In malayalam, he has very least, still it adds to 300. So now we are at 24K mark.
    After all the efforts of movie songs, we turned our attention to his devotional songs. Following interactions with SPB, we were told that each year during 1975-1995, he would be singing a minimum of 400 songs of private devotional songs per year. Our collection till now is 2K though. So now the number is totaled at 32K.
    With Ghantasaalajis experience, we know that a minimum of 6K songs are untrackable. Our target is to reach 20K (we are half way though), he will be put in the Guinness records. All the newspaper articles that he is already there are FALSE.

    Yes, working up like I did for SPB, its safe to say P. Susheela has 15K songs in her kitty.

    @Arghya: Yes, but there is different Guinness for ignominious achievements 😀

  330. 330
    paramjeet Says:

    Breaking of words pe kuchh gaane yaad aa rahe hai:
    1. Hum bekhudi mein tumko- jisme line hai ‘sa…gar mein zindagi’, ‘shi..she mein aapko’, ‘sa..re woh zindagi ke sahare’.. Mujhe lagta hai yeh poetically intentional hai..
    2. Yeh jo chilman hai sunne mein yeh jochil man hai zyada lagta hai..
    3. Tum pukar lo. Kaise muqtasar ko break kar dete hai Hemantji

    vitthalji,
    Woh sharabi gaana mast hai sir.. Hum aapke paas hi hai, jayein to jayein kaha.. Ghantashalaji aur anya sabhi legends lajawab the.. Unhi pe charcha karke to gyan milta hai humein…

    Ek adarniya aaye the suna maine, kuchh bol baal ke nikal gaye.. Chalo achha hai, beech beech mein aesa hona chahiye.. Jaise vitthalji ne kaha zyada shakkar khaane se bhi diabetes ho sakta hai to kabhi kabhar karela juice bhi pee lo.. Waise kuchh likha unhone gurudev ke upar ‘ quareling for girl and money'(directly to nahi magar padhke samajh mein aa jati hai).. Sirf girl aur money? Kyun bhai, islaam conversion ko bhi leke aa jaate.. Pagalpan ki kahaniyan bhi thodi suna dete.. Kanjusi ki baatein bhi kuchh karte.. Aur bhi jitni bekaar ki baatein hai sab kar dete aur sangeet ki baaton pe idhar udhar ke do char cassettes aur albums ke naam daal dete jismein kishoreji ke gaane na ho…. Bas ho jata aapka kaam aur ghar mein aaraam se jaake so jaate..

    Agar koi lataji ko aaake bolta hai aapne ashaji ki chhutti kar di to usko bhi thappad pad hi sakta hai.. To iska matlab yeh ho gaya ke ashaji, lataji se badi gayika hai.. Equation bada saral hai.. 🙂

  331. 331
    arghya Says:

    I have a question to Prabhanjan. I dont know buddy how you would take it, but just inquisitiveness..

    A R Rehman’s first film Roja had SPB in two songs.. But after that except “Kadhalan”- that too owing to the fact perhaps that SPB himself was an actor playing the elder brother of Prabhu Deva-he hardly turned to SPB.. Considering SPB’s stature and larger than life image in South Indian playback singing, why did AR did that?

    It is just intrigue.. If you can answer..

  332. 332
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    “Hum Bekhudi Mein” jo Rafi ne “sagar” ke saath kiya usse mai breaking of word nahi kehta. usse mai shabd mein harkatein daal kar stretch karna kahunga. Kal mai Arghya se iss geet mein Majrooh ke jaam ko saagar kehne ke khoobsurat andaz ka zikr kar raha tha. Aap bilkul sahi disha mein hain. Rafi words ko kai baar toDte the, aap note karen ki words ke beech mein pause (not stretch) hona chahiye. Bahut saare examples hain agar dhyan se sunnen to. Kishore bhi kabhi kabhi karte the. Hemant sabse kam karte the aur yeh ek quality hai unki – “muqtasar” bhi mujhe to break karte yaad nahi. Aap phir se sunnen. Unka words ko itna break na karna kaafi zaroori baat hai. Hemant ki baat karte yaad aaya – unka ek bahut hi nasheela hai – “Yeh Nayan Dare Dare”. Aapka Manna-Lata ka kuch jawab hi nahi aa raha. Kahan ho maalik??

    Vithal ji,

    B) [Posts 315-318] I agree with you on the importance of knowing and understanding the language when listening to songs. Please note that while some people know the language, most of them still don’t understand the poetry.

    I have presented my views on pronunciation, expression, breaking of words, etc. on my site in bits and pieces. Obviously, I only speak about languages that I know, hence I mentioned that when I hear Ghantasala I only hear the sounds and the sur – obviously he was technically top-notch. I’ll copy/paste relevant items at some point of time. I will certainly share a few western songs (there are some amazing classics) from the little bit I know. I had earlier shared Mariah Carey singing in the whistle register (she did it beautifully early on in her career). I was talking to a friend yesterday and realize that people might not be familiar with it, so here’s a link – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS3cgGKDC6Y This should also clear some misconceptions about the “highest possible pitch for a composition”. Please notice the differences between singing from the modal, falsetto and/or whistle register. It is important. HFM compositions mainly require the modal register. Kishore was the maestro of falsetto amongst HFM singers. I have requested many people here to confirm / investigate if my memory serves me correctly in that Kishore did sing in the whistle register in a Hindi movie. I just have a childhood memory and since I don’t have many songs or movies, I can’t confirm. Merely hitting a note is not important. Ghantasala had great control on the higher notes as well and that is one of the reasons why he was a genius. People have to focus more on the hitting the note as they get further away from their comfort zone (say trying to hit a high note). The beauty lies in doing it naturally, with complete control without a need to yell or without thinning of voice. Again, it’s the control that is both Ghantasala and Manna Dey’s strength.

    I do respect your views and the manner in which you present them. There is one item that I disagree with you on and that is “…whosever has MASTERED telugu perfectly has declared it as the best among languages…”. I read your posts and see that you present things in a very neutral and respectful manner. Also, you yourself said “…language, singers etc. being no bar…”, so I know you mean good and please pardon this reply of mine. I just want to request you to not compare any Indian languages. We see so much division of the world today. India is divided on religious, regional and linguistic lines. My request to you and everybody else is not to do this to music. Music, cricket, etc. can be used to bring us together. There are many idiots on the other forum who claimed that Kishore was Muslim, Rafi is not appreciated because he was from Lahore, MDs didn’t like Rafi because he was Muslim, etc. Can’t they think of anything better? Who cares about all this? Like Arghya says – “they can’t debate on technical points, so they start talking about all this”. I enjoy listening to Pathana Khan’s “Medha Ishq Vi Tu” as much as I enjoy many other songs. Here is the link – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTl40LgphNI. You can start listening from 4mins 38secs if you want to skip the talk. Here is an interesting tidbit about Sanskrit (of which Telugu is a derivative) – what Panini did years back is the basis of grammar in programming languages and many computer theoreticians use this till date and call “Panini-Backus Form” or the “Backus-Naur Form”. Anyone who has ever taken a good compiler class should have used this or atleast be familiar with it. I find Urdu (another Indian language with influences from Persia) or Hindwi shayari as beautiful as Hindi kavita. I wouldn’t compare the languages, they are all beautiful. Many parents could say that they’ve never heard any language sound more beautiful than their smiling child making those weird sounds and then saying the first word (regardless of the language).

    Arghya,

    A lot of times “H” needs to be made softer in a song, because it is a sound that creates more power. You will find examples of this in sad songs. One is “Dukhi Mann Mere”, note how Kishore says “Kehna” in “Sun Mera Kehna”. Note the difference in impact that emphasizing the “H” makes when Kishore says “Haal” in the line “Haal Bura Hota Hai” in “Diye Jalte Hain” or how he says “Kehna” in “Kehna Hai”. Obviously, all these singers were human and they likely made mistakes too. Also, one can better many songs with more technology, time and money spent in the recording studio. “Kh” and “Bh” have similar basis as “H”. Some singers have problems with the “N” sounds on certain notes.

    Prabhanjan ji,

    I had heard that SPB has sung the most number of songs, but coming from someone like you who has followed SPB so closely, it has just sunk in. It’s AWESOME!!! I request you to share some of his gems. BTW, please see the Sonu video in Post 324. He has some good words to say about SPB. Look forward to your rating as well. I’m doing this just to keep the conversation going since my personal favorites keep changing from time to time :).

  333. 333
    arghya Says:

    Satyansh,

    As I have said these pronounciations over a period of time became the signature of these singers as well..So, no complaints there from me.. I said that “bha” factor only beacuse I found that repeatating on quite a few occassions and not an one-off scenerio like the “Dukhi man mere” stuff..Paramjeet can tell better, with my limited knowledge, Punjabis generally tend not to pronounce “bha” fully but something like “bba”. Please correct me if I am wrong.. I have heard many Punjabis speaking ” O bhai” as ” O bai” with a more force on the “b” and “i” sounding something like “O bbaii”..

    Bengalis dont pronounce “w” in their language 🙂 and there is no “s”.. All the “s” become “sh”.. So a “swadesh” would be pronounced as “shadesh” in Bengali with “w” complete silent.. So Hemant’s pronouncing “khwab” as “khab” is very understandable..

    by the way, can you throw some more light on the breathing techniques of different singers?? and how the natural voice of different singers( let us stick to filmy singers only, as classical vocalists have special techniques) affect their breathing? Can you pl elaborate this a bit here?

  334. 334
    Balarykar (Prabhanjan) Says:

    A very old topic on the SPB-ARR which is what you are having in mind.
    http://tfmpage.com/forum/archives/18509.1366.08.07.27.html
    Many of the comments there are highly childish and I don’t subscribe to it at all.

    I look at it this way. The single singer monopoly in an album was very much the trend when ARR arrived on the screen. Also, no artist in the industry (except for Kamal Hassan) was selective and would go on a mad signing spree after a success. It is to his credit that he reversed this trend and preferred to do far fewer than anybody else would have done. Knowing the madness of the producers/financiers, it can be said easily that for every film he set the music, he must have declined at least ten. After having selected few movies, he wanted his music to sound very differently. Thats the reason for opting not just more than one singer but as many singers as possible.

    Returning to SPB, the most songs by a singer in an ARR album is in the movie Duet which has 6 SPB songs. The next highest numbers is again by SPB in telugu Kamal Hassan movie “Thenali”. To the best of my knowledge, not even Hariharan, Unnikrishnan, Udit Narayan, and Sukhvinder Singh (all ARRs favorites) have ever sung more than 3 songs in any ARR album. One may say that in Duet movie, the more songs are due to K. Balachander and Thenali is just a dubbed movie in telugu.
    Yes, its also truth that the last SPB song for ARR in hindi was for the dubbed movie “Muthu Maharaja”, and also its true that for ARR’s freshly composed hindi songs, SPB has sung only four songs, namely “O Sai Yaiye” from Daud, and “Jaan Tum Ho Meri” for the movie Vishwavidhaata, and “Shukriya Tera Shukriya (Jo Maanga Tha)” and “Mere Yaara Dildara” for the movie “Kabhi Na Kabhi”. All these were way before he took hindi movies seriously and its more than a decade since ARR has taken SPB for any genuine hindi song. If we think these numbers are bad, there is something worst in store. There are many SPB numbers in Ilayaraja (IR) in his dubbed hindi movies. However, there is just ONE song when IR composed a hindi song from the scratch, and that single song is really really pathetic. Maybe, ARR and IR think that their music becomes hindish if they take (so-called) north singers.

    Also, it seems that in an effort to not sound repetitive, ARR keeps on changing singers and lyricists. Though we know that its not necessary to do so, ARR feels it this way. Recently I read the interview of a booming music director where he could not do justice to the question of “Why there as many singers as there are that many songs?” His answer was plain bullshit coz it was just copy paste style.

    To summarize, it appears that ARR has sidelined SPB. However, if we look at the entire picture, ARR still has given far better qualitative and even quantity songs to SPB than anybody else.

  335. 335
    pavan Says:

    The most powerfull and touching voice. That’s max can be told. Kishoreda no doubt use to lure everybody with his magnetic voice but also tried pulling even the ones,who were not interested in music/songs. My father Of course he is no more, but usually hated sound and music all the time .When was in Amaravathi I was listening to Zindagi Kaa safar……….then suddenly my father came very close to me n said “He sings very well.The meaning of the song itself is teaching!”. I was mad of his remark and rewinded song n listened again.
    Such unforgettable memories remain ubforgettable coz v just cant ……………………….forget his voice. None can be his equallent any time……….anywhere………anyhow.

    PAAVANA.

  336. 336
    arghya Says:

    //To the best of my knowledge, not even Hariharan, Unnikrishnan, Udit Narayan, and Sukhvinder Singh (all ARRs favorites) have ever sung more than 3 songs in any ARR album//

    Prabhanjan, I think in Lagan(2001), ARR gave 5 songs to Udit.. “Ghanana ghanana ghir aaye badra”(ensembled number), ” Mitwa”, ” Madhuban mein jo kanhaiya”, ” O ri chhori” and ” O palanhare”.

    Anyways, yes, AR never believes in single singer dominance.. Your points are quite explaining..

  337. 337
    paramjeet Says:

    pavan bhai.
    guruji ne bahut logon ko inspire kiya hai.. Achha laga aapke baare mein jankar.

    Satyansh ji,
    Manna ji aur Lataji ke beech mein compatibility bahut hai.. Aap dekhiye unke gaaye hue duets adhiktar kaafi lokproiya hue hai.. aap ‘tum gagan ki chandrama’ le lo,.kitna madhur aur soft gaana hai.. Log kehte hai mannaji acche parsh gayak nahi the magar main nahi maanta hoon.. aap ek gana bata do jisme mannaji ne theek se playback na kiya ho.. Padosan mein south indian accent, baharon ke sapne mein yudling, Shree 420 mein woh sadabahar yugal geet aur Anand ka woh khubsoorat gana jo jeevan darshan pe kishoreji ke gaano ko bhi takkar de sakta hai.. Pata nahi kyun aese classical mein stereotype ho gaye woh.

  338. 338
    Vitthal Says:

    Paramjeet ji, Arghyaji & satyansh ji,

    thanks for your posts and inputs. Nice reading sir’s

    Prabhanjan ji,

    Interesting reading. I personally feel that SPB was in one way unfortunate as far as association with music directors with “gifted versatile & creative talent” was concerned. I personally feel, with an exception to Illayaraja, who had composed some memorable songs, SPB’s larger association, was to a large extent, with music directors – as you said – who could compose mainly crap songs – He was really not that fortunate as was his predecessor – ghantasala (who was an accomplished music director himself) who had association with the greatest music directors the south indian film industry had ever produced, namely saluri rajeswara rao, pendyala nageshwara rao (composer of siva sankari, rasika raja, madi sarada devi, syamala dandakam etc.), T V Raju etc. I think that was the one of the main reasons why mainly many crap songs only (& incidentally which are more in SPB career) , as you mentioned, are counted while thinking of SPB. Otherwise, in terms of numbers like higher number of songs etc. SPB is ahead of others. Another talent which SPB had, similar to kishore, that, without much on technical qualification front, he too could catch compositions well, and mimick in the particular actor’s voice attractively. These were the other qualities for which SPB is admired. Nevertheless, today in some TV programmes, when I hear SPB, I see that he is (perhaps by virtue of his vast experience) a different personality, as compared to other current generation singers, who i feel and become thoughtful, that the telugu film industry, which had a history of colossus legend like ghantasala, is today in hands of ………. such current generation singers.

    I think, not only telugu, even hindi (who had the legend mohd rafi and subsequently kishore kumar at helm) and other industries are also facing the same circumstances today.

  339. 339
    Vitthal Says:

    Dear prabhanjan ji & friends,

    Few of the SPB songs which I admire and would like to share with all here – really SPB has displayed nice skills in these numbers. These songs are from the film “sankarabharanam” (1980) through which SPB shot into fame.

    Shankara song by SPB from film sankarabharanam

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZACVIMSbOM&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=92A5B6088E6CE243

    here is SPB rendering (broche varevarura) – A great devotional kriti compostion of Saint Sri Thyagaraja Swami – Par excellent devotional composition on Lord Rama By the great saint composer (said as greatest composer in the world)

    The swara alapana and also the song effect at 3.25-3.29 – nice to hear.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7Y-myFmxQY&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=92A5B6088E6CE243

    Arghya ji, Paramjeet ji & satyansh ji,

    Fine quality video of siva sankari song – recently uploaded with good quality. (if you hear in high volume simply awesome)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvg3dZ2r7Xg&feature=related

    Similar song of Rafi in hindi and by ghantasala in telugu.

    Telugu original number – Hayi hayigaa aamani sage by ghantasala and jikki (which is kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya in hindi by rafi and lata)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh0tS9PQwJs

    The song was first recorded in telugu. I was given to understand that rafi was himself not satisfied with his rendition vs. the telugu rendition. (ghantasala clearly steals the show)

    Paramjeet, arghya and satyansh “jee’s” – for your musical views please.

  340. 340
    Vitthal Says:

    Satyansh ji,

    Nice to see your website and articles therein. (article with regard to propoganda on mohdrafi.com made a interesting reading) I would be happy if you could display a nice article on classical based film songs in indian films which will be a gem of a article.

  341. 341
    kishorefan Says:

    Balarykar (Prabhanjan) saab,

    Could you please share some great songs of SPB ?
    (specially in the music direction of illayaraja)

    Also for our interest, some crap songs (as you mention which are in large numbers) for listening please.

    Vitthal ji, -337

    Your post was interesting. Really, it is a advantage to have association with some of the creative music directors, so that one’s potential can be fully brought to light. It is in fact one of the major factors for an artist to shine. Like Naushad was for rafi, Pancham da for kishore etc.

    Arghya ji, Paramjeet ji,

    A new article is now running on in other forum – Rafi an avatar or god – You would have already read my posts in other forum on these particular quotes – which incidentally vitthal ji, had recently quoted in other blog here ( An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar) what to say ? Avatar, god …….. (nice to hear)

  342. 342
    kishorefan Says:

    paramjeet ji – 329

    Bahut humorous post tha aap ka. Wah paramjeet ji. keep it up.

  343. 343
    arghya Says:

    Vitthalji,

    I had already heard the original Telugu version of “Kuhu kuhu”.. It is a marvellous composition by Adi Narayan Rao.. And of course, I was carried away by Ghantashala version.. But in Hindi also, I think Rafi delivered “the best he could” in a classical song. And of course, Lataji as usual, effortless in semi classicals.. I love both the versions separately.

    This morning I listened to 30 Lataji songs continously as I was driving on a highway.. And it was such a superb feeling.. After Kishore Kumar, Lataji is the voice which I can listen to innumerable times at a stretch..

    Kishorefan bhai,

    I personally dont have any problem if someone calls his/her legend a “demigod” provided in the course of doing so, he/she is not calling other legends “demons” 🙂

  344. 344
    kishorefan Says:

    338 – vitthal ji,

    wah sir, – great post.

    SPB -both the songs are nice to hear. Could you kindly confirm music director for those songs please ? The second song (saint composer tune) simply marvellous – the tune itself reveals divinity.

    Siva sankari & ghantasala ji – great quality video thanks for the link. Nice sir, it is such a musical extravaganza, as arghya ji states, that is beyond description & comparison. I am out of the world when I hear the song.

    Suvarna sundari number, this I have heard earlier – Virtually ghantasala ji dominates (real perfection) vitthal ji, there is no further question, discussion or argument on that. Lata ji is somewhat better in hindi than rafi (but surely below ghantasala ji in starting alaap too) whereas rafi clearly struggles in all the alaaps (they are not controlled rather). Vitthal ji, you would have observed, rafi fans never discuss about these songs when any discussion on rafi vs. ghantasala comes (you are also a rafi fan – hope you take my point in right spirit vitthal saab) because it is quite clear that ghantasala ji virtually stands ahead as a complete singer when he hear such songs.

    Same is with kishore ji, when any discussion on kishore vs. rafi is made, no positive discussions are generally made on aradhana songs, yaadon ki baraat songs, salamat rahe dostana hamara song etc. because, it is quite clear that in these songs kishore dominates and there is no further question or argument on that.

    Aur jab yodelling ki baat aati hai, tab bhi kuch postiive discussions nahi hote hai, kyon ki kishore the incomparable yodelling gaano me.

    Vitthal ji, Magar hum rafi ji ko bhi like karte hai, specially unke 50’s or 60’s ke gaane. Though we do not call him god or avatar (even for kishore we do not make such quotes – guru ji is OK since guru means teacher from whom we can learn) we admire rafi as another great singer of hindi playback singing like kishore ji.

    Thik kaha kya maine adarniya PARAMJEET JI. (aapa 329 post me asha ji or lata ji ka comment bahut hi badiya badiya hai))

  345. 345
    arghya Says:

    Today I had a half an hour discussion with Mrs. Sabita Chowdhury( wife of Shri Salil Chowdhury)..

    And such a simple and wonderful lady she is! How beautifully she talks and still maintains such a lovely voice.. She sang “Aayi ghir ghir sawan ki” and “Champavati aaja” alongwith Kishore Kumar and still remembers Kishore Kumar as ” simple human being”.. She says” Kishoreda was sitting at the feet of Salil Chowdhury when latter was rehearsing him for “Guzar jaye din” at his own residence”.. Sabita aunty continued” And I was shocked to see the scene when I came to that room with tea pots in hand!”.. “What a simple man Kishoreda was”- aunty says with a nostalgic sigh..

    She says” Many young people try to sing those old songs today, but cannot replicate the magic”.. I said “Aunty, I have seen many young people avoiding Salil Chowdhury songs on stage, perhaps they find them too tough”.. Sabita aunty says” Where are the voices like Kishoreda today to pull off such songs”!

    She talked on Lataji, fusion music, music piracy of today’s world, Salil Chowdhury’s music approach and so many things..

    At the end, I just thought” how big those morons are who foul mouth legends like Salil Chowdhury. India can never have such genius legends any more”

    We are proud of you- Salilda!!!

  346. 346
    shukla de Says:

    Some nice discussions are going on as far as music is concerned. Ghantasala (vitthal ji – thanks for sharing songs of this great musical genius), SPB, ARR and other singers – nice information on the artists.

    Prabhanjan saab,

    Your statement ARR did not like single singer dominance is acceptable in today’s filmy circumstances. Moreover, today I think there is no singer who is capable of dominating singly. In the 50’s to 70’s the calibre of rafi, kishore was such that their dominance was fully accepted by people and i feel even if ARR was there at that time, he too would have proceeded along with the sentiments of the people.

    Vitthal ji,

    Suvarna sundari song of ghantasala ji – very unique. Siva Sankari will not be forgotten by anybody who hears it. It is such a complex rendition that we can safely assume that even classical singers might not attempt it (leave playback singers). I agree with others (specially Surajit bose ji) that ghantasala ji is clearly far ahead of rafi as well as manna dey and other hindi singers as well. He possessed not only a magnificient voice but had the perfect technical ability in terms of modulation, expression and presentation. Really great sir. It is unfortunate that this great genius is not known to many in the other parts of the country (excepting southern india to maximum extent)

    The SPB songs too were nice to hear vitthal ji. thanks for the songs.

  347. 347
    Ashfaq Says:

    Kishore kumar sahab a gift of allah.. He is the sun .. When the sun shines all moons and stars go out.. His voice is the biggest barqat of allah in this world.

    His songs are like fresh air.. there is noone like him.

  348. 348
    Srivas Says:

    Vitthal ji & Arghya ji,

    Suvarna sundari song – original telugu number hayi hayigaa and the hindi equivalent kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya (by rafi and lata duo) – some facts.

    The telugu original song hayi hayigaa aamani… from suvarna sundari by ghantasala and jikki is composed by great music director Adi Narayana Rao in different ragas : Hamsanandi (I think sohani is the equivalent in hindusthani), kanada (I think bahar in hindusthani) kalyani (yaman in hindusthani) etc. Mohd. Rafi and Lata had listened to this song carefully before their hindi recording and Rafi had requested Adi Narayana Rao to change the raga alapana, as rafi felt that he will not be able to render the same in the way ghantasala did. It was said that Adi Narayana Rao, had advised Rafi that you please try to sing in your own way and style, as culture & technique of ghantasala was not possible. That is why, we find difference in the raga alapana in rafi vs. ghantasala renditions. Ghantasala version (a cakewalk for him) is very tough from technical expertise, whereas rafi’s alapana is simplified. It was even said that rafi had practised the song number of times, still rafi himself felt that it did not get the effect, which ghantasala had given to it. It is said that rafi had developed great respect for ghantasala after this song was heard by rafi. Another song which rafi had respected ghantasala was chal ud ja re panchi (payaninche o chiluka in telugu) where in again the ending alaap was mindblowing in telugu, and further the telugu rendition is a slight high pitch rendition than the hindi one. (Of course, I personally feel that this song was first sung by rafi and subsequently ghantasala might have improved it to give more attraction, perhaps for this reason the telugu song appears more attractive – Mohd. rafi had called ghantasala on telephone in 1960 and congratulated him for this song)

    But suvarna sundari song is on a different level. Lata Mangeshkar comes close to ghantasala (though as a male voice it appears more dominating) and as Arghya ji states, rafi could deliver, “as best as he could”. Nevertheless, I have seen in many discussions that this suvarna sundari song is generally discussed for projecting ghantasala’s competence or skills, which I generally do not subscribe to, because in my view as a musician, this suvarna sundari song is nothing for ghantasala, (rather it is only a simple song for him) who incidentally had comfortably rendered with ease, numerous compositions which are many many times tougher than the suvarna sundari number. Moreso, there are plenty of even more tougher beautiful compositions of ghantasala in the music direction of Adi Narayana Rao himself.

  349. 349
    Rafifan Says:

    Vitthal ji, shukla ji, kishore fan ji, Arghya ji……

    Kuhu Kuhu song is really outstanding in telugu. Ghantasala clearly dominates, no issue on that. Without hearing the telugu song, if you hear hindi song, you will agree that rafi excels. If you compare the same with telugu version, which is the original one first recorded, sure, it is the telugu one which has a edge. So, in my view, both versions should be heard individually. Being a carnatic music composition, it is natural for ghantasala to be exceptional in the rendering, by virtue of his exceptional expertise there, but if you see the song from a hindusthani point of view, rafi had done a nice job. Agreed, ghantasala was exceptional in rendering alaaps, taans in a unique style which clearly creates a lasting impression. Of course, that was his specialised area in which perhaps no other singer could venture, frankly speaking (siva sankari and other songs for instance). Similarly, take rafi specialised songs, you will agree what the great rafi is. Summing up in total, ghantasala was ghantasala and rafi was rafi, both being outstanding and awesome, though each of them in their specialised areas might have more attraction than another.

  350. 350
    Raj Says:

    On number of songs by a singer – rafi, lata, in my view cannot exceed 6000 also (though lata can be more) because even if one takes 100 films a year (only an estimation, actually it might be even less) one will get approximately 3000 films for a period of 30 years from 1945 to 1980 and assuming rafi and lata to have sung it at least 2000 films, taking average of 3 songs per film the count will not cross 6000 (only an estimate) – where is the question of 28000 songs or 30,000 songs as being claimed in some sections. Really false. SPB might have definitely sung more songs because he sang simultaneously in 4 languages, might be more than 10,000 songs easily going by the count of number of films. For e.g. in case of SPB if you take that SPB has sung an average of 40 songs per month, i.e. yearly 500 and roughly for a period of 30 years it comes to 15,000 might be possible. Kishore also I think Mr. Arghya is correct i.e. approx. 3000 songs. Ghantasala 10,000 songs and P suseela 15,000 songs, might be possible because their career spanned nearly 3 decades. Even Jesudas, I think has around 5000 plus songs.

    Shukla de,

    After advent of A R Rehman, surely many singers have come on the screen. Of course, many singers are also vanishing as fast as they have come. There lies the difference vis-a-vis erstwhile legends.

  351. 351
    Raj Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    Where you have vanished ? Aapka humorous posts are being missed here.

  352. 352
    kishorefan Says:

    Arghya ji,

    Salil and others were nice to hear. You will agree that the great music directors of golden era could compose golden songs in modern era too. E.g. is nothing but 1942 love story songs in the music direction by none other than pancham da.

  353. 353
    kishorefan Says:

    Arghya & paramjeet ji,

    1958 – chalti ka naam gaadi – Kishore kumar at the helm. S D Burman composed some nice songs. Paanch Rupaiya 12 Aana…(yodelling) Who said kishore did not exercise influence in 50’s ? Rafi was famous in those days but kishore was at the helm in the film.

  354. 354
    Bhattacharya G Says:

    Arghya Dutta,

    Sir,

    A nice article on kishore kumar’s devotional songs. Kishore Kumar had an attractive voice which was capable of catching the attention of listener. I really appreciate your regard for Mohd. Rafi ji as well, as can be understood clearly from the last para in your article.

    It would be nice to see a article by you on kishore’s philosophical songs, for which kishore is remembered a lot : mainly from amar prem, andaz etc.

  355. 355
    Debjyoti Says:

    Arghyada you are lucky to talk with Sabita Chawdhury,Salilda was a legend and mahaguru Kishoreda is the greatest icon in this universe.Rafi and others are far behind.

  356. 356
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji, paramjeet ji, kishore fan ji,

    Here is kishore kumar singing a gujarati song.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8sXSJbDuMM

  357. 357
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji, paramjeet ji, satyansh ji & kishore fan ji –

    What happened ? The discussions have slowed down.

  358. 358
    Vitthal Says:

    Shukla de ji,

    Thanks for your inputs. Kuhu Kuhu song by rafi and lata is “also” a good rendering. I think the song is caught fifty fifty between hindusthani and carnatic styles in hindi, this may be perhaps due to the effort by rafi and lata for trying to adapt to the culture of telugu (carnatic) rendition which is in pure carnatic style. Anyhow, I am with Arghya ji too, I love both the versions individually.

    Kishore fan ji,

    Prabhanjan ji would be the right man to share some of SPB hits here.

    Here is a hit song of SPB in the music direction of Illayaraja here :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSUBT3X-cc8

  359. 359
    arghya Says:

    Nice to see the posts getting moderated after a long time and a flurry of old mates again coming back.. Vitthalji, Srivasji, Raj, Kishorefan, Shukla De ji, Debjyoti etc.

    Bhattacharyaji and Ashfaq bhai, Welcome to this forum! Yes, of course, Rafi sahab has a huge respect in my mind.. It is only his fanatic fan group with their stale remarks and corrupt mentality sometimes raise my temper 🙂

    Vitthalji,

    I agree with Rafifan here in his last post.. Definitely, Rafi has his own flavour in renditions.. As you rightly put, we love both the versions separately as well.. Rafi was a balance between full orthodox trained and full natural talent with slight tilt towards the previous one in his renditions.. It is to be also noted that in spite of Manna De around that time, Adi Narayan Rao chose Rafi to deliver “Kuhu kuhu” for an encore of Ghantashala- which I think is a big enough certificate for great Rafi.

    Bhattacharyaji,

    Philosophical songs of Kishore are milestones in Hindi film music.. Take out his philosophical songs, you take out the creme-da-le-creme of philosophical songs of Hindi film industry.. I had written an article on Kishore Kumar’s relationship with Gulzar- yet another less discussed association in HFM- which I think should be available here in this site shortly..

    Kishorefan,

    Kishore was very much in the league of playback singers in the 50s and gave many memorable hits with SD, Anil Biswas, Husnlal Bhagatram, Chitragupta, Khemchand Prakash, Salil Chowdhury, OP Nayyar etc. It was from late 50s onwards(much to do with his personal life), that he started losing ground in singing.. His playing truance in rehearsal sessions started climbing(thanks to Madhubala) making SD, OP, SJ etc. getting furious at him.. He lost Kala Pani project from SD, OP and SJ put Rafi to playback for him for his indiscipline.. Things once became hostile, Kishore could not get back the lost ground.. But one good thing happened as Kishore got his lessons in a hard way, so, years later when he got the top spot in singing, he never let loose and held on to the position till his death..

    Salil Chowdhury and Madan Mohan were two people who were very much ahead of their times.. And of course, Panchamda is also there. Here I feel it interesting to discuss some compositional aspects of these great MDs.. as Mr. Raju Bharathan shared with me during a nice musical discussion over phone for 1 hour- there were two separate COMPOSITIONAL SCHOOL which emerged in those golden days of music.. One school which was “methodical and systematic” approached where the composer used to make the tune taking several days and then rehearsing with the singer with several days.. They were quite “dominant MDs” as far as giving liberty to singers while rendering is concerned.. They did not want to deviate from the structure of notes they had put in front of the singer.. Also, they did not appreciate too much with the singer making some changes on his own to the tune while singing.. Naushad was a classic example of this “METHODICAL” school.. If Rajuji is to be believed- even OP Nayyar had that knack of being methodical and systematic..

    Now, a second school emerged as the “Spontaneous and unorthodox” composers set like Salil, C Ramchandra and RD who gave singers all the liberty to do amendments to the tune as per their wish and convenience as far as it was for betterment… Tunes used to come to them suddenly(like during a fag in the rehearsal sessions or driving a car from home etc.) and they wanted the singers to address those with severe sponteinity also.. They were tougher nuts to break as they used to be very demanding in terms of the speed of grasping the song..

    In both these schools of composers, there was one singer- Shri Lata Mangeshkar- who addressed both the sets of composers with equal flair.. In fact, Lata could take the extreme spectrums equally well.. Naushad and C Ramchandra – two extreme ends of spectrum- promoted Lata.. Balanced midway in the spectrum like Madan Mohan, RDB or SDB preferred Lata.. Salil Chowdhury- very much tilted towards the sponteinity bandwidth, preferred Lata.. Only OP did not use Lata, but I think the reasons were more non-musical than musical..

    So, it is many times the approach to composition which the MDs take which sets their singer preference.. I cant say except a few exceptions here and there, any MD was biased for any particular singer.. It is their style, compatibility and approach to music which made them come closer to some singers and stay away from some singers..

  360. 360
    paramjeet Says:

    raj bhai,

    aaj kal kaam thoda zyada pad gaya hai maalik, isi liye.. 🙂
    Waise bahut badiya discussion chalu hai yahan par.. ‘kuhu kuhu ‘ ke saath uske Telugu version ka tulna na kare kyunki jo Telugu gaana hai woh Carnataci music ko dhyan rakhke kiya gaya hai jahan pe notes ko straight hit nahi kiya jaata hai.. Usko Hindi mein conversion karte waqt music director ne us mein Hindustani alankar daalne ka prayatna kiya tha jisse woh rashtriya star par akarshan pa sake..

    Rafiji ke kaafi saare limitations the jo aapko unki website visit karne se pata nahi chalega.. Wahan pe unko superman project kiya jaata hai(achhi baat hai bhaijaan).. Rafisahab shastriya sangeet ko ‘filmy’ tariqe se gaate the(alankar ke kathinaiyon ko kam karke) aur saral gaano ko ‘shastriya’ tariqe se ( unnecessary harqatein daal ke).. Yeh hi baat Surajit babu aur Satyanshji ne yahan pe kiya tha- jisko bolte hai ‘classicist’ approach and not ‘classical’ approach..

    Jagjit Singh ko gaali dena bahut asaan hai… Aap, main koi bhi de sakta hai, magar unki baaton ka nishkarsh nikalna zaroori hai, usko bina samjhe gaali dena apne aap ko chhota karna hai.. Jo aadmi apni puri zindagi ghazal gaake aur riyaaz karke bitaya hai(Jagjit, Mehedi Hasaan) aur jisko pata hai Ghazal ek aesa kshetra hai jahan par notes pe customization gunaah hai, wahan agar koi ghazal ko apne suvidha anusaar high pitch pe gaa de (film singing ke naam pe) to zahir hai taqleef to hoga hi..

    60 ka dashak kalakaar Kishore ke liye jitna achha tha , professional Kishore ke liye utna hi boora.. 80 ka dashak professional Kishore ke liye zabardast tha magar kalakaar Kishore ke liye kuchh khaas nahi.. 70s mein ek zabardast balance maintained hai kalakaar aur professional Kishore mein…

  361. 361
    Balarykar (Prabhanjan) Says:

    @Raj:”where is the question of 28000 songs or 30,000 songs as being claimed in some sections. Really false.”
    Lets have a relook. Simple math, nothing else.

    “SPB might have definitely sung more songs because he sang simultaneously in 4 languages,”
    He has dominated in 3 languages and not 4. In fact he has sung more songs in hindi than in Malayalam.
    “might be more than 10,000 songs easily going by the count of number of films.”
    Like Rafi in hindi for a rather more period, SPB has three languages in his kitty, viz., Kannada, Telugu, and Tamil. Just as 5K number is true for Rafi, a minimum of 7K in each language is true for SPB. This itself takes the number to 21K. Also, the number of devotional albums for SPB is way too higher. In each language he has a minimum of 2K which now adds to the number 27K. Note that I am not including the period 1967-1975 and 1995- onwards.

    “For e.g. in case of SPB if you take that SPB has sung an average of 40 songs per month, i.e. yearly 500 and roughly for a period of 30 years it comes to 15,000 might be possible.”
    Its exactly the ” average of 40 songs per month” gives the wrong picture. During 1975-1995, each day he would be singing a minimum of 5 songs per day for 300 days in a year. The rest 65 days were spent with his children who were growing up in US. So 1500*20 = 30000 is the true picture. Even if one assumes 4 songs per day, this number is still 4*300*20 = 24000 songs.
    I have started collecting his songs seriously for the last two years only. Already, the number is at 10000 and we have not even touched the half-way mark. In two more years time, I can give you the entire list of a minimum of 20K.

    P.S: I am not arguing just as a SPB fanatic. Even I had serious doubt over these numbers in the beginning. Its only after serious collection that I am convinced of him having sung not less than 28K in any circumstances.
    Its not a problem if you are not convinced today, but I am sure of convincing you eventually after two-three years 🙂

  362. 362
    Vitthal Says:

    Sri Vas ji & Arghya ji,

    Some nice inputs on Kuhu Kuhu song. In fact, I was given to understand that it was Ghantasala who recommended name of Mohd. Rafi to Adi Narayana Rao for the song in Hindi. Perhaps this was the junctional point where rafi and ghantasala had come into contact with each other. Manna dey was very much there, but rafi was chosen for the song, might be Adi Narayana Rao wanted to work with the topmost preferred singer of hindi 1957 (at that time it was rafi) as he had recorded the telugu number with the topmost singer of the south.

    Sri Vas Ji, – kuhu kuhu discussion is only for the purpose of the song and not for projecting skills or talents of ghantasala, who, as you said, had indeed rendered many tougher compositions. Thanks for the inputs sir.

    Paramjeet ji – Your statements on “classical & classicist approach” are interesting. Yes, there is a lot of difference between the two. We will discuss on the issue at some other time.

  363. 363
    paramjeet Says:

    vittthalji/srivasji
    padosan mein manna ji ke gaaye hue classicals pe aap ka khayal kya hai? Kya usmein unhone carnataci style follow kiya tha??

  364. 364
    Surajit Bose Says:

    Hi Arghya Ji, Paramjeet Ji,

    Do either of you have a complete recording of this awesome song by Kishore da ? I have been looking for this (and other songs from “Suhaana Geet”) for ages. If you do, pls respond to me by email: surajitbs@gmail.com

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SttYkB3MrN4

    This was from an unreleased movie.

    Keep posting. I enjoyed the debates on this page. I miss Lalit Ji. His points were very good and knowledgeable.

  365. 365
    arghya Says:

    The video documentory on Kishore Kumar- “Zindagi Ek Safar” is out in the market and is available at all major cities at the leading music outlets. Released by Moser Baer, directed by two times National Award Winning director Sandip Ray, this is a two hour and twenty minutes long documentory, very informative and clearly can be seen as a work of passion. The MRP of DVD is Rs 149/-.

    Request all the Kishore lovers to grab their copies.. It is a very dedicated and well researched work with luminaries like Lataji, Ashaji, Satyajit Ray, RDB, Amitabh, Shahrukh and many many others sharing their thoughts about Kishore.

    Get your copies, friends!

  366. 366
    Srivas Says:

    Paramjeet ji – 362

    Padosan – Ek chatur naar – song by Kishore kumar and Manna De – Yes Manna did attempt carnatic style in an attractive way. Frankly speaking, kishore’s rendition was on filmy lines (attractively rendered) rather than on classical effects. I feel since kishore sang for the hero, in the end he was made to have a edge, but on technical lines, manna was surely better, though kishore had a good filmy voice. Kishore’s version was technically easier than the tougher manna’s version and quick/small alaaps (( in carnatic style). In the end, kishore’s swaras, it is clearly known that, only to put up a winning show, that was composed & Manna’s voice was deliberately made to fade (which is not the real case as I could clearly decipher manna’s style) so as to make kishore win (because hero has to win and kishore sang for hero). Kishore was good from filmy side and manna was nice from classical style. Technically speaking manna was good in the song.

    This is the main thing, singers who have classical edge in hindusthani or carnatic, they can certainly show some edge in classical compositions. I think in “Hindi Manna only alone” was capable of doing that.

    Prabhanjan ji & Vitthal ji,

    Just day before yesterday, I saw SPB saying in a TV programme in telugu, that ghantasala and rafi are worshipping gods for him.

    This was in connection with a discussion on “Sankara song from sankarabharanam film ” by SPB (which Mr. Vitthal had posted Here) and SPB, “very reluctantly & hesitatingly” was opining & commenting, that “perhaps” even rafi or ghantasala might not have possibly rendered the “sankara song” as SPB rendered.

    I was stunningly surprised at this observation of SPB & Sri Vishwanath, the producer of classical style movies who was present there, immediately commented that SPB’s intention is that since SPB has first sung the song and which had became famous and since people have closely embraced the song, the same song might not have achieved “such close association again” with people if the same would have sung by rafi or ghantasala who are indeed worshipping gods and a fact which is beyond dispute. Sri Vishwanath immediately closed the issue (perhaps to avoid controversy) by quoting that after hearing ghantasala singing bhagavad geetha, I cannot listen to SPB and immediately wound up the issue.

    Why I discussed/shared the above issue is here because, at times, even popular singers make some comments (which are actually unnecessary) “which have a scope for giving way to controversial issues” and there should not be any surprise (as is happening in some forums) if people with “incomplete knowledge” on music and singers make some immatured comments.

  367. 367
    Vitthal Says:

    Srivas ji, – 365

    I have seen the “Paaduta Teeyaga” programme of SPB on 21/12/2009 on ETV telugu and yes, I too felt uncomfortable on the comments made by SPB. In fact, SPB quoted that so great singer rafi rendering the “sankara” song might not have achieved the recognition it ihas achieved in telugu by SPB. I think, if I am not wrong, SPB did not mention Ghantasala here with reference to the song (he mentioned only rafi), though he & Viswanath subsequently jointly quoted that the popularity wise, the song would not have achieved prominence similar to SPB, if the same was sung by ghantasala or rafi.

    Of course, both SPB and Sri Viswanath, as you said, speedily closed the issue by stating that both ghantasala and rafi were “Aradhya daivalu” (gods whom we worship) and again Sri Viswanath quoting that after hearing Ghantasala he cannot hear SPB.

    Srivas ji, it is a totally irrelevant issue, I think, again as you said, may raise controversies, as was happening in rafi forum here i.e if rafi had sung those songs and now similarly if ghantasala had sung those songs and likewise. I think these kind of discussions are totally unwarranted (specially when discussion is with reference to incomparable legends), even by popular singers.

    My personal views (only for sharing with you)

    But frankly & to me again personally Srivasji, WITH THE HIGHEST DUE RESPECTS TO ALL OTHER LEGENDS/PLAYBACK SINGERS, I maintain that I prefer Mohd. rafi in hindi and of course, Ghantasala even more than rafi. I am of the firm view that these too can never be surpassed (specially ghantasala who was without any competition as long as he lived) if you decide taking into account the “total talent & unique contribution ” of these legends. Even SPB and others agree to this and some isolated statements made out of over enthusiasm or anxiety does not prove anything. These are my pure personal views Srivas ji.

    I would equally love hearing some of famous P B Srinivas songs in the south and now even Kishore kumar, after some nice discussions in this revered forum of kishore with our many esteemed friends here. By the way, P Suseela is also another singer, whom I admire a lot (in some songs even more than the nightingale – lata of hindi)

    Paramjeet ji,

    I agree with Srivas ji on padosan song. Ek Chatur naar, both Manna and Kishore were nice in their own ways.

    Arghyaji and paramjeet ji,

    Could you kindly confirm if Kishore Kumar had a minimum training in music? I got this doubt because the notes clarity and presentation by kishore is very attractive even to classical musicians and as I was given to understand by a statement of Ghantasala that technical notes clarity can be presented only by people having knowledge of music. I presume that Kishore had definitely some knowledge in music though he might not have been very well trained. Am I correct in my presumption ?

  368. 368
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji , Paramjeet ji and all other friends,

    Some outstanding musical gems for listening please.

    Here are three songs of P suseela – outstanding

    Paadamani….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOOSg7z1GJI&feature=related

    Sakhiya …..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmJvwXgWNtA&feature=related

    Chandana charchita (melodious song)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkeQ25QtAws&feature=related

    Following is a song by ghantasala (beautiful sharper voice of 50’s arghya ji)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfpY70WSxx4&feature=related

    And I was longing to share this outstanding song of ghantasala with you Arghya ji. Even SPB even today greatly maintains that this song cannot be sung better by anyone and even the music cannot be better composed by any music director (music direction is by S Rajeswara Rao of the south)

    A melancholy – beautiful song (similar to the likes of rafi’s numbers mere mehaboob of naushad …..) kindly carefully hear the music and full song with full attention pl. – a real great gem.

    Manasuna manasai…..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1SYHTs9J6I&feature=related

    For your esteemed musical views Arghya ji and Paramjeet ji.

  369. 369
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji,

    The outstanding song I wanted to share with you was manasuna manasai, to be more clear. I felt I should write this, because I thought I was not clear in my previous post pl.

  370. 370
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji,

    The para written in my previous posts on composition by S Rajeswara Rao, melancholy song applies to Manasuna manasai. I should have mentioned “the following song” in the para, which I incidentally missed. Sorry.

  371. 371
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji & paramjeet ji and others.

    Reference my previous posts.

    I think I am posting too much of songs. Are you OK and comfortable with my posts and sharing of songs. Kindly advise, if I am being overactive, because I always feel happy to completely respect the sentiments of all individuals and never mean to hurt anyone. I hope you got my message sir’s. If it is uncomfortable, I will change accordingly pl.

  372. 372
    arghya Says:

    Vitthalji,

    Post 367.

    I listened to Manasuna manasai and I have a surprise for you regarding this song..

    Here is the surprise 🙂

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rum63PeZSsE

    Tell me which version you liked better.. I find both the versions equally attractive with a slight edge to the Bong one because I could understand the poetry there and the Telugu one I could understand only the melody.. Also, Hemant Kumar is my favourite when it comes to melancholic songs expressing in a gentlemanish way..

    So nice of you for sharing these gems with us here.

    Now, please share your feedbcak about this Guru song. Composed by him only and sung by him. Notice the orchestration(or the lack of it). Any special marks for the experimentation? 🙂

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoJkiN0Nex8

  373. 373
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji,

    Great, indeed surprise. Though the first line tune is same in both songs, the remaining song differs. Hemant kumar has rendered it nicely. The expressions too were nice.

    I feel you would have certainly caught the perfection in a more better way in the telugu number, if you had got the knowledge of the language. The expressions are so perfect that hardly anybody can replicate according to SPB for this song, which is incidentally one of his favourites and one of great hits of ghantasala. But, in my view, frankly, the telugu song in terms of composition – notes wise (all the paras) are tougher than the bengali version. As you said, the melody is unique in the song. Thanks for your views.

    Nice to learn some similar tunes exist in telugu as well as bengali songs. The telugu song is from film Dr Chakravarthy – 1964. When was the bengali song composed Arghya ji ? Which was first composed ?

    Coming to kishore kumar’s number it was OK. I wanted to appreciate the kishore song provided by Surajit Bose ji in his post 363 here, an attractive rendering by kishore, hope it will be great if you could provide/help me with the entire song for hearing please.

  374. 374
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji,

    Could you kindly confirm the doubt in post 366 – regarding Kishore Kumar’s knowledge in music.

  375. 375
    arghya Says:

    Vitthalji, 372/373.

    Yes, indeed surprising so many common tunes exist between Bengali and Telugu. The Bengali tune in discussion here was composed by Hemant Kumar only in 1955 for a mega hit Uttam Kumar-Suchitra Sen starrer movie “Shap Mochan”.. So, it came around 9 years before the Telugu one from Dr. Chakravarthy.

    Regarding Kishore’s musical knowledge, it is a recorded fact by Ashok Kumar’s daughter (in a recent interview on Kishorda’s 80th birthday) and Anup Kumar also, “KISHORE WAS A MARVELLOUS PIANO PLAYER.” In private, he used to play tunes of Bech, Mozart, Chopin etc. in front of his other family members. A photograph in Derek Bose’s “Method in Madness” also portrays Kishore playing on a piano. Now, who knows from where he learnt to play that.. He could play harmonium effortlessly.. Some close associates of Amit Kumar confirms to have heard of some personal videos where Kishore was singing bandishes of Bade Ghulam Ali Khan sahab ditto! Call it the eccentricity of this man or whatever, the same stuff he did not try out in recording rooms.. But those small nuances in so many so called “non classical” numbers, if observed minutely, makes it very clear this man knew music and of course, classical Hindustani Music.. Apart from Saigal, as confirmed by Amit Kumar, he used to spend days together insider his room, listening to Bade Ghulam Ali Khan sahab.

    Now, what would you call this? Definitely, he came to this industry as a untrained.. But I dont think he remained untrained forever.. His lessons were,however, not from direct sources(what we call “taalim”)..He kept on learning from different singers throughout his career, from their singing, listening to them hours together. Listen to his own composition on Raag Purvi” Aamar deep nebhaano raat”-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AUdArL30gY

    I was surprised in fact that you found “Khushi do ghadi ki” as OK. Many of Kishore’s song had that BARE VOICED impact, which was utilized unmatchedly by many people.. Kishore as a MD was one of them. I can hardly remember any other singer, who from time after time(like Kishore) used to experiment with his voice with no-musical scores.

  376. 376
    Vitthal Says:

    Anil Ji,

    OK remark was only for the song. I could not catch your liking for the music less effect, it was a rare thing. Rather, my mention was mixed with the kishore’s number which surajit ji had given in his previous post, at which I was mesmerised. So, the intention was purely that I was just caught between both the songs and the number given by surajit had enveloped my mind. So keeping that nice song (given by surajit ji) of kishore in mind, I mentioned OK for khushi do ghadi. I hope you got it.

    By the way, Srivas ji has posted one great melodious song of ghantasala in the other thread here, which I wanted to share with you here. The song starts from 1:06 and is a devotional song. The song is from sankarabharanam raga which srivas ji refers as the king of ragas.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiobIYE96Xw

  377. 377
    Vitthal Says:

    Contd.. arghya ji,

    So kishore knows music. Why people say, he was not trained. So ghantasala is correct in his statement that people having technical bent of mind only can render notes clearly and i feel kishore belonged to that class going by your post.

  378. 378
    vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji, – immediate previous post 375 of mine is addressed to you, by mistake it is stated as anil ji. sorry for the mistake.

  379. 379
    Vitthal Says:

    Satyansh ji,

    Today I saw to your website – Could get some nice articles and discussions.

    The article on “Ek chatur Naar” was interesting. Interestingly, Srivas Ji had written a post here in the song, I hope you might have read it. Rafi vs kishore articles, I think are as as a result of the discussions in rafi forum – got it.

  380. 380
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji,

    For your enjoyment / your views on these 2 songs (romantic) – GS voice with soft velvet touch (you will get similar to rafi’s top romantic songs feeling)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oMv0kxACuk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gIfDBFZqtA&NR=1

  381. 381
    satyansh Says:

    Vithal ji [Post 339 / 356 / 378],

    I might have missed a few posts here and am catching up. I do check this site to read interesting inputs from all of you. I would write more at some point of time, maybe soon. It would be very hard to justice to songs of that (as mentioned in your posts) calibre in an essay, however, a collection of songs would be useful for music lovers. Of course, I thoroughly enjoy reading Srivas ji’s posts. Yes, the entire series was a result of the stuff being said on mohdrafi.com. I never saw any sort of formal rating criteria being formalized so I decided to write what I have learnt to be important.

    Arghya [Post 332],

    This is soo old, I think you must have forgotten your own post by now :). Sure, I was not pointing out anything you said. It was just general conversation. Punjabi accents differ depending on where they are from. I know it is the same for other languages – Telugu for example; I’ve heard people in Vizag speak differently from people in another regions. Similarly, a Ludhianvi speaks differently than an Amritsari who speaks differently from a Malwai. In general, people who grow up speaking Punjabi do tend to say “ppae” (stressing on the p) instead of “bhai”. That is more Punjabi than Hindi. BTW, while I don’t its origins, to the best of my knowledge, “Khaab” is now an excepted word in Hindi. “Khwaab” is Urdu. Nowadays people tend to say something in between the two and that is what is weird – I don’t know how to write that word in English alphabets. It is neither “Khaab” nor “Khwaab”. “fir” instead of “phir” has become commonplace. “fir” is excepted lingo as well and has only recently been pointed out by people on TV.

    In Hindi for example, people from MP and UP speak in different accents. I’m not sure if you have heard people talk about “khadi” Hindi – I’ve heard some interesting conversations between friends, always made us smile with funny interpretations of the same word/sentence in different contexts. I’ll narrate a recent unrelated incident about interpretations and cross-references of words between English and Hindi – we were doing a “What personality type are you?” questionaire. It matches up peoples’ personalities to birds. A friend Lou matched up to an owl. Greek and Roman mythology consider owls to be magical and wise. Before that in ancient India, owl was considered wise and helpful. I informed him that today in India, owls are called ullu (read ulLou, because Lou is pronounced Loo :)) and are considered stupid or foolish (NOTE: this guy is very intelligent). The irony is that I’ve heard that the change in the perception of the owl from wise to foolish likely came from the Britishers as in the middle ages, Europe started viewing the owl as a foolish creature that partakes in eerie things. Now that the Brits have left, if somebody calls one an “ullu”, they should thank them for being called wise :).

    You have pointed interesting aspects of pronunciations of Bengalis. I was not familiar with those – especially the “s” and the “w”.

    Regarding breathing techniques, are you talking on the lines we spoke about on the phone a while back? :). I am not sure how to write it on a forum, since the sincerity of the tone often gets lost in a post. I want to avoid controversy and would rather keep this discussion offline only. I’d say that all the legendary singers had exemplary breathing patterns during the song. Proper breathing techniques do help the person sing longer. We are lucky that the trained Manna Dey, Lata and Asha are still with us. It should be noted that all these great singers are / were human and while they were far better than most of the HFM singers today, credit also goes to the MDs of that time who were instrumental in creating compositions based on the singer. I’d love to see some of you guys talk about the MDs.

  382. 382
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji, Paramjeetji, Satyansh ji, Kishore fan ji and others.

    Kindly see the following link please. i wanted this to share “SPECIALLY” with all of you.

    http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2003/02/11/stories/2003021100450100.htm

  383. 383
    arghya Says:

    Vitthalji 381.
    Thanks so very much for that link. It is so beautiful to know a temple coming up for this genius singer in AP. Lots of interesting trivias there. Thanks so very much.

    Satyansh 380.
    Music Directors were the heart of a song. You, Me and all know this very well. I have never seen anyone fighting as vigorously for his favourite MD as he does for his favourite singer(perhaps, with an exception to R D Burman and A R Rehman).. That is because people are more attached to the deliverer of the end product- which in music, is singer and the song.

    No discussion on film music be completed without mentioning the pioneer of music direction in films- Khemchand Prakash(1908-1950)- who was a true melody maker, deep classical knowledge and quite an advanced orchestration as compared to his contemporaries. KP shot to fame with Tansen(1944) with Kundan Lal Saigal’s “Diya jalaao jagmag jagmag” and Khurshid Begum’s “Ghata ghanghor shor machaye shor”.. Khemchandji continued to give lovely music in coming years with Kundan Lal Saigal- “Hum apna unhe bana na sake”, Aamirbai Karnataki-“Chanda des piya ke jaa”, Talat Mehmood and Geeta Dutt- “Armaan bhare dil ki lagan”.

    Khemchandji was the real “talent hunter” of those days in the film industry. It is not surprising to know, three biggest playback singing legends of Bollywood- Lata Mangeshkar, Kishore Kumar and Asha Bhosle- all were groomed and given crucial breaks by Khemchandji(used tobe called “guruji” by all three of them). When other people used to play safe, Khemchandji explored newer talent and gave Lata her first solo hit- “Chanda re ja re ja re”, Kishore’s first solo- “Marne ki duayein kyun maangoo” and Asha’s first Hindi film duet-“Aati hai yaad humko”(which also happens to be India’s first yoodelling song- yet another facet of KP’s innovation and trend adaptibility).

    Khemchandji used western orchestration as a pathbreaker. He and later C Ramchandra were the only MDs in the 40s who adapted Western Music Style so beautifully.

    Before his untimely death, Khemchandji gave us a musical extravaganza with Lata Mangeshkar and Rajkumari- “Mahal”. The haunting “Aayega aanewala”(Lata) to “Chhan chhan ghungarwa baaje”(Rajkumari)- Mahal was a runaway hit and made waves everywhere. With around half a dozen films in hand, Khemchandji demised at a tender age of 43, and the industry lost a jewel forever.

    Listening to KP closely, one gets a feeling, he would also have played a big innings like S D Burman, due to his adaptibility, simple and melodious tunes and willingness to explore newer things.

    Khemchandji had created a school of his own and maestros like Naushad and Anil Biswas used to consider him as their gurus. A hard Saigal lover- Khemchandji, had a very special chemistry with K L Saigal. And his proteges also were all from Saigalian school only.. :).. It is said that R C Boral- another leading MD of 30s and 40s, used to consider Khemchandji as the best amongst them. And also said KP was much ahead of time and the gap he had created to be huge.

    Just as you mentioned about MDs, I thought of putting down something about this marvellous composer, Khemchand Prakash.

  384. 384
    Raj Says:

    Vitthal ji – 381

    Nice article, I loved it. He had saintly qualities as well (last line confirms that in the article) the article too is unparallelled similar to his unparallelled contribution. Thanks

  385. 385
    sandeep shrivastav Says:

    Kishore lovers

    Rafi did exercise tremendous influence in 50’s and 60’s whereas kishore did it in 70’s & 80’s. No amount of arguments can remove this truth. It is waste to argue on some biased comments of some fans. Both had their own unique contributions to bollywood.

    Vitthal, -381

    A great article in Hindu on Shri Ghantasala ji. I have heard him earlier, mainly courtesy rafi forum. He is really a great talent, it appeared as if he were for real. I am really out of the world when I hear him. It is nice to learn that the songs of outstanding genius, shri ghantasala ji, is being shared here also along with other southern singers. Keep it up Mr. Vitthal.

    There are many nice discussions being followed here compared to the other rafi forum, keep it up music lovers.

    Arghya,

    Nice article by you on kishore, I appreciate the same. Very few people, like you can pen such articles on kishore kumar.

    The posts of Srivas, Lalith, Vitthal have made interesting reading.

    Happy new year to all.

  386. 386
    paramjeet Says:

    satyansh bhai,

    Aapne jo vichaar diya hai Punjabi pe, woh sahi mein ghazab ka hai.. In fact, aap ko, Jalandhar ki Punjabi aur Faridkot ki Punjabi mein bhi antar dikhega..

    Kisine Manna De aur Ghantashala ki baat chhedi hai classical pe.. Hum kis tarah se in do gayakon ki baat kare? Ek samajhnewali baat yahan pe yeh hai Satyansh bhai, Manna ji ko Hindi mein jo competition mila woh Ghantashalaji ko Telugu mein nahi mila. 2 arth nikalte hai:
    1. Hindi filmon ke gayak itne pratibhavaan the ke unhone Mannaji jaise competant log ko bhi challenge diye.
    2. Ghantashalaji itne pratibhavaan the ke unke aage ek bhi Telugu gayak nahi chale.

    Aap chahe jaise bhi jis kisi bhi arth ko lo, dono taraf se hi yeh do mahan gayakon ko ki pratibha ko hi darshayega…

    Aasaan nahi hai Kishore, Rafi aur Mukesh jaise gayakon(jo ke ek hi samay pe aaye the) ke saath takkar dena.. Aur teenon ke teenon(khaas kar Kishore aur Mukesh)- technical training mein unse peechhe ho magar filmy awaaz aur natural talent se bhare ho..

    Maine yeh suna hai ke Ghantashalaji aane ke baad kaafi saare singers ke career khatm ho gaye the. Kya bolenge is cheez ko? kitna dum hona chahiye ek bande mein sabki chhutti karne ke liye??

    Main personally samajhta hoon ke jo variety Mannaji ne Bollywood mein darshaye hai woh lajawab hai.. Alag tarah ke gaane bahuton ne gaaye hai(genres ki baat kar raha hoon), magar gaane ke andar ghoosna aur sahi mood ko pakad ke sahi expressions deke gaane ko jagrut karna 2 hi logon ko aata tha- kishore kumar aur manna de.. Main kya bolna chahta hoon woh agar log samajh gaye na, Satyansh bhai, to iske aage koi baat nahi chalti..

    Aur log kya kisi ko devdoot bana rahe hai Satyansh bhai?? Jo aadmi, itna mahan gayak, bol sakta hai ke ‘meri awaaz Lata(chad gaya papi bichhua), kishore(ek chatur naar) aur rafi(na caravan ki talaash hai) ke saamne kuchh nahi’- aese aadmi ki vinamrata ke saamne aur koi devdoot khada ho sakta hai kya?? Khaas kar aese devdoot jisne shayad hi kabhi apne co-singers ki dil khol ke taarif kiya ho(na ke diplomatic comments maar ke)

    Main kain dafaa yeh baat bol chuka hoon, magar apne mujhe bhavuk kar diya to maine bol diya yahan pe..

  387. 387
    Vitthal Says:

    Paramjeet ji – 385 – HATS OFF TO YOUR POST

    Similar to Arghya ji, I convey my highest regards to your true “musical comments on legends – as they are”

    I will be happy to share with you & arghya ji as well, if it is OK with you, on southern music “outstanding contributions and its legends”. It would be according to your wish as you say i.e either here or at our e – mails, (as I think this might not be the right forum for other issues)

    Paramjeet ji – You are cent percent correct.

    Manna ji did great despite fierce competition.

    Virtually, all existing singers had to pack off from chennai (madras those days) when ghantasala took charge as playback singer. The monopoly status as “unchallenged colossus” continued until his death, in telugu singing, whereas in tamil and kannada, (50’s it was same status) he reduced his contribution “voluntarily” on account of health grounds from mid-60’s when TMS sounderrajan in tamil (introduced by ghantasala himself) and P B Srinivas in Kannada followed as successors to ghantasala in those fields. Even in telugu in earlier 70’s, for some films, ghantasala was not available on health grounds and producers literally used to wait for months to get the song recorded by him only, despite SPB, Ramakrishna, P B Srinivas, A M Raja, K J Yesudas, M S Rama Rao being available. Such was his mesmerising spell. In earlier 70’s even one tamil song, as one mr. raghavan ji states here, Mutthuka Mutthaga….. which K V Mahadevan ji music directed, got that sung only by ghantasala, K V Mahadevan stated that only ghantasala can do justice to that, (Sounderrajan had become famous in tamil by then).

    Arghya ji – 382

    Thanks for sharing information on the legend – khemchand prakash ji – many interesting points. I believe he was the father of hindi music compo-sers (sitions).

    Sandeep Shrivastav & Raj ji,

    Thanks for your views on post 381 of mine.

    380- Satyansh ji,

    It would be interesting to discuss on “classical songs in indian playback singing” as you said, may be either here or at your site. – Paramjeet ji, I am sure, would play a great role in that topic, along with Arghya ji.
    It is better Surajit bose ji, Srivas Ji, Khan ji, & Lalith ji, also join for the same.

    Also immense thanks and regards to “kishorefan ji” views as well, & I have seen his “nice” responses to Mr. Haldar & Mr. Bhagchandani ji posts in the other thread here (feud between rafi and kishore article)

  388. 388
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,
    Ghantasala jaisa pratibhashali gayak to shayad hi kissi bhi industry mein janma ho. Meri soch hai ki yadi usse hindi ke sandarbh mein dekhen utna aadar keval Saigal ko diya jata hai. Saigal ne gaane adhik na gaaye hon, parantu veh hindi chalchitra mein sangeet ke arambhik aur mahatvapurna anuvadak the. Nirasha iss baat ki hai ki bahudha yuva peedhi ne Saigal ko ya to suna hi nahi aur suna hai to unke avishkaar ko theek se samjha nahi. Yeh sochkar apne ko santvana deta hoon ki log phir bhi Saigal ke naam ko mahatvapurna samajhte hain. Isme bahut bada shreya jata hai Lata, Kishore, Rafi, aadi-ityadi ko kyonki inn sabhi logon ne Saigal ko apna guru bataya. Ghantasala ko to Telugu yuva bhi kaafi pasand karte hain. Mai dekhta hoon ki har aayoo varg par Ghantasala ki chaap hai aur yeh Ghantasala ki pratibha hai. Vithal ji, iss vishay par aap kripaya gyaan den. Ghantasala ke yogdaan ki ek aur visheshta hai ki veh keval gunotkarsh varg mein hi prasidh nahi the, balki veh aampasandi bhi the aur unka prabhav jan sadharan par bhi tha. Ispar bhi mai Vithal ji se kuch tipaniyan karne ka anurodh karta hoon.

    Anil ne Ghantasala aur Manna Dey ke beech baat aampasandi ki nahi balki shastriya sangeet ki pakad ke baare mein ki hogi. Hum aap kaun hote hain inn logon par tipaniyan karne waale. Mai dono ko iss sandarbh mein barabari ka samjhta hoon aur mai bhi aap hi ki tarah iss tulna mein nahi padhna chahunga. Yeh baat badh kar Hindustani aur Carnatic ki ho sakti hai aur mai iss vishay par baat karne ke yogya nahi hoon. Apne star par sangeet ki baat hum karte rahenge aur ek dusre se issi tarah gyaan prapt karenge.

    Aapne gaane ke bhaav ko darshane se sambandhit jo baat kahi usse mai sampurnatah sehmat hoon. Anya gayak to mahaan the/hain hi, par Manna De ke pyaar bhare gaane bhi kitne sundar hain – “Kaun Aaya Mere” keval ek udaharan hai. Kis mithas se unhone uss geet mein prem bhara hai. Maine haal hi mein yeh samjha hai ki logon ne Manna Dey aur Lata ke kai purane geet sune hi nahi. Udaas gaanon mein bhi mujhe “Poocho Na Kaise” aur “Dukhi Mann Mere” bahut pasand hai. Saath mein Mukesh ke bhi kai geet hain. Kishore darshanik gaanon ko jis star par lekar gaye uski barabari aaj tak koi nahi kar saka. Rafi ke namra, madhur aur nasheele gaanon ka kya kehna.

    Phir aapne devdoot ki jo baat kahi woh bhi achook hai. Manna De ne to yeh bhi kaha ki Sonu Nigam ne jo “Deewana Tera” geet gaaya woh unhe sunkar yeh laga ki veh to kabhi isse nahi gaa sakte. Phir unhone kaha “Apne baare mein kya kahun, maine to jo gaana tha gaa diya”. Itni vinamrata dekh kar bhi log samajh nahi pate aur ajeeb si baatein karte rehte hain. Aap to jaante hi hain. Iss samay aapke das pasandeeda udaasi bhare geeton ke baare mein likhen.

    Iss samay apni pasand ke kuch udaas gaane yaad aa rahe hain – “Poocho Na Kaise”, “Dukhi Mann Mere”, “Dil Jalta Hai”, “Dekhi Zamane Ki”, “Badi Sooni Sooni Hai”, “Mai To Ek Khwaab Hoon”, “Jaane Woh Kaise”, … Yeh to bahut zyada likhna padega – bas karta hoon.

    Vithal ji,
    The article on Ghantasala was good reading. The genius deserves it.

  389. 389
    Paramjeet Says:

    satyanshji 387 aur vitthalji 386

    Pehle to aap dono aur Arghya bhai, Srivasji aur anya sabhi Kishoreji ke fans mera pranam sweekar karein.. Is forum mein jo discussions ho rahe hai, main yeh bolna chahunga weh bahut hi uchha koti(high standard) ke hai.. Sirf knowledge sharing ki baat hi nahi, ek dusre ke prati sanman, anya gayakon ke prati sanman aur antatah sabhi gayakon ke fans ko utsaah paradan karna apne apne Guru ke upar ke upar likhne ke liye- yeh forum kaafi lokpriyata prapt kiya hai in dinon mein aur kain jagahon pe maine is forum pe aur ismein hui baaton pe logon ko charcha karte dekha hai…

    Satyanshji,
    Mujhe mannaji ki sonu wali baat pata nahi thi… Dhanyavaad aap ka. Rochak tippani hai magar Mannaji sabhi ko achha hi bolte hai, boora kisiko nahi..
    Mujhe udaas gaano mein yeh gaane bahut pasand hai:
    * badi sooni sooni hai
    * shaam e gham ki qasam
    * o majhi re apna kinara
    * jin raaton ki bhor nahi hai
    * tum bin jeevan kaisa jeevan
    * saathi na koi manzil diya hai na koi mehfil
    * jaye to jaye kahan
    * kahi door jab din dhal jaye
    *woh shaam kuchh ajeeb thi
    * teri duniya mein jeene se to behetar hai

    Waise udaasi bhare geet aur tragedy bhare geet do alag alag hai mere liye.. 🙂

    Vitthalji,
    Dhanyavaad itne vistaar se Ghantashalaji ke upar alokpaat karne ke liye.. Zaroor humein aur bhi gaane sunaaiye.. Sirf Ghantashalaji hi kyun, anya gayakon ke bhi… Humein bhasha shayad samajh mein nahi aayegi, magar sangeet ki paribhasha to har jagah ek hi hai.. Jaise Majrooh Sultanpuriji ko ek baar ek patrakaar ne poochha tha ‘ apne itne saare MDs ke saath kaam kiye, kaun aapki lekh ko sabse zyada samajh paye dhun banate waqt?’ to Majrooh sahab bole ‘ Sachin Dev Burman’. Patrakar ashcharya chakit hoke bole ‘ magar unko to theek se Hindi bhi nahi aati thi!!’ to majrooh sahab hanske bole ‘ yes, but he knew poetry and poetry has one universal language’….

    Arghyaji,
    Thanks khemchandji ke upar likhne ke liye.. Ho sakta hai hum log is site pe har hafte 4-5 naye naye unnecessary articles na likhte ho, magar hamare forums mein jo aese aese posts aate hai woh koi bhi article se zyada gyan vardhak hai..

    Srivastava ji,
    Aap sahi hai.. Yeh forum ek bahut hi lokpriya forum hone ja raha hai.. Aap ne sahi kaha jaise Kishoreji 70s aur 80s mein top the waise hi Rafiji 50s aur 60s mein.. Waise Kishoreji ne bhi 50s, 60s mein behetareen gaane gaye hai aur Rafiji ne 70s mein.. Aur Mannaji, Hemantji, Talatsahab, Mukeshji, Mahendra Kapoorji sabhi bahut oonche star ke gayak the.. Aese gayak baar baar janam nahi lete.

  390. 390
    kishorefan Says:

    Arghya & paramjeet bhai,

    4th August 1929 – Kishore kumar’s birthday.

    4th December 1922 – Ghantasala’s birthday.

    I was told that the number 4 in numerology is found in popular artist’s life. The versatile contribution of both is fairly known.

  391. 391
    vitthal Says:

    Satyansh ji, Arghya ji, Paramjeet ji, kishore fan ji & others

    In my next post, I will narrate a beautiful and exciting incident between ghantasala & Shankar Jai kishan, the reputed hindi music directors who music directed a telugu film “jeevitha Chakram” in 1971.

  392. 392
    vitthal Says:

    Satyansh ji, -387

    I fully subscribe to your views, You have analysed things perfectly. Crossing generation & other barriers, even today ranging in millions, from children to aged people to influential people to common man (the current numerous t v programmes on singing and music competitions are evidence for this) are influenced by ghantasala, and in any music programme, as stated above, numerous ghantasala songs are sung. That itself proves your statement “har aayu par chap hai”. This is the position after 35 years of his passing away.

    That is the strength of “true music” satyansh ji.

    Can we think of any other singers of today, being able to cast such influence even when they are active i.e now (many current songs of them also people are not listening) or at least imagine to have such influence for future decades. A big doubt for sure.

    Same is the case for hindi singers too, most popular being mohd rafi, kishore, lata to name than others.

  393. 393
    vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji, Paramjeet ji, & satyansh ji,

    A beautiful, tragic, touching song of ghantasala for your views. (Pl. state something on the emotions and pitch)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDYD-rCHWuc&feature=related

    The shankar jai kishan vs. ghantasala, i will do it, as I am searching some video songs in relation to the same.

  394. 394
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,
    Yeh ek link hai jisme Manna Dey ne Sonu ke baare mein kaha ki uska “Deewana Tera” geet sunkar veh bhi uske deewane ho gaye. Phir kuch aisa kaha ki “Mere baare mein kya kahun jo bhi toota-phoota gaata ho, aap log sunte hai, mere liye bahut hai”. Yeh link khud dekh lijiye, maine apni Post 387 aur iss post mein shayad translation mein kuch galat likh diya ho. Phir unhone Rafi ki bhi bahut tareef ki. Unke bhaav ko samajhna zaroori hai, woh zyadatar sabhi ki prashansa karte hain. – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8w6xFDy0Es

    Aapke gaanon ki list bahut acchi hai. Talat ke acche geet pick kiye. “Saathi Na Koi Manzil” Rafi ke behatareen geeton mein se hai. Bahut hi madhur dhun hai aur Rafi ki awaaz iss geet ko jachti hai. Iss gaane ke andaaz par gaur karenge to aapko aur kuch gaane yaad aayenge. Kishore ki sad songs ki pakad to lajawaab thi. Udaasi zyada generic term hoti hai aur usme logon ki definition kaafi hadd tak overlap karti hai, par tragedy ki paribhasha logon par nirbhar karti hai aur alag ho sakti hai. To kripaya apne nazariye mein tragedy ke gaanon ke kuch examples dijiye.

    Vithal ji, I liked the pathos in Ghantasala’s voice in the song you shared. Didn’t understand the lyrics, but he did convey the sadness through his voice. Kishore, Mukesh, Hemant, etc. were masters at this. Ghantasala seems to be a man of many talents – singing classical/semi-classical, comedy, serious, etc. songs exceptionally well.

    Prabhanjan, To your post in the other thread – please do continue sharing SPB’s gems as well. I listen to the songs you post and am getting to learn about SPB as an artist.

  395. 395
    Raj Says:

    392 – vitthal ji,

    Wow, I am moved to tears with the ghantasala song – bommanu chesi pranamu posi. Really vitthal ji, What a emotion, what a expression, voice range and pitch. There is no shouting at all, it is so natural and perfect. The high pitch in ” sokana sandrana muncheveu le” takes somewhere into deep depths. Really amazing. Thanks for the excellent song sir. A beautiful musical composition i.e tragic one. It is one of the rarest of rarest gems I have heard till today.

  396. 396
    Paramjeet Says:

    Satyansh bhai..

    Mannaji na keval ek mahan gayak hai balki ek mahan insaan bhi hai,. Vinamra aur saral. Lata, Rafi, Kishore, Pancham, Naushad, sabhiki unhone dil khol ke taarif ki hai.

    Tragedy gaane mere liye waise gaane hai jin mein insaan apni bhavukta vyakt karta hai. Wahan pe woh kisi shaks ko kosta hai ya apne naseeb ko ya halaat ko. Usmein majboori bhi jhalakti hai jo udaas gaano mein nahi hoti. Aese gaane 50s aur 60s mein zyada bante the. Mujhe aese gaano mein pasand hai:

    1. O Duniya ke rakhwale
    2. Tum na jaane kis jahan mein kho gaye
    3. Mohabbat ki jhooti kahani pe roye
    4. Tu auron ki kyun ho gayi(bahut mushkil gaana hai)
    5. Patthar ke sanam(ek dum Rafiji ki awaaz pe fit baithta hai yeh geet)
    6. Teri duniya se hoke majboor chala
    7. Barbaad e mohabbat ki dua leti jaa
    8. Tumhe yaad karte karte jayenge rain saare
    9. Yeh dard bhara afsana sun le anjaan zamana
    10. Chahunga main tujhe saanjh savere

    Ab aap bhi apne favourite udaasi gaane aur tragedy gaane bataye…..

    Vitthal bhai,

    kaha kho gaye aap??? Humein aur bhi sundar gaane bataiye.. Ghantashalaji ke kuchh Tamil ya Kannada gaane share kijiye humare saath.. Maine suna hai ke Telugu xhhodke, in dono bhashaon mein bhi unhone kamaal kiya hua hai.. Thoda bataiye krupaya…

  397. 397
    arghya Says:

    Dear Kishore Kumar lovers,

    Kishoreda- The Legend, the Government recognized foundation on Kishore Kumar, is launching a website on Kishoreji called http://www.kishoreda.org. The website will be on air on 3rd of February, 2010. Check that out for many new and innovative features on the greatest playback singer ever.

    There is also a Press Conference cum Media Briefing about the organization and its mega-activities this year on 21st of February at the Press Club, Kolkata.

    People interested to be a part of this International Organization, may please contact me for membership procedure and details.

    -Arghya.
    VP-Kishore Da, The Legend.

  398. 398
    Vitthal Says:

    Dear Satyansh ji, & Raj ji,

    Thanks for the views on Bommanu chesi…

    Dear Arghya ji, Paramjeet ji, Satyansh ji & others,

    After a long time, as I was busy. Well, Shankar Jai kishan, reckoned as one of the greatest music directors in hindi cinema, have composed a music for one telugu film “Jeevitha Chakram” in 1971. Ghantasala, P Suseela, and Sarada (hindi singer) were the main singers in this film. Shankar Jai Kishan had asked them to come to Mumbai for recording songs. I have heard this narration from a aged man who knew facts of those days.

    Ghantasala, being from a orthodox background, went to mumbai in dhoti and shirt (white) as most southern singers in those days had this culture. He used to always sit on the ground for practising music and as usual he sat in one corner in the recording studio. The musical troop of shankar jai kishan and the music directors themselves saw this man and wondered who this man could be and who is sitting in the corner. After a few minutes the producer of the film entered the studio and one of the members in the troop asked the producer that why that dhoti clad man has entered this studio. The producer replied, he is Padmashri Ghantasala, the “famous singer” of the south. The troop members laughed and whispered among themselves and said “dhoti man – he does not look like a singer” – This producer is calling him a famous singer. The producer just replied calmly – let the recording be over – you will know who is what.

    The first song in the film to be rendered was Sudigalilona deepam – solo sung by ghantasala, composed by shankar jai kishan (the standard of the song, composition wise, plainly speaking is only average as compared to other numbers of this music duo, of course some high pitch is there)

    Ghantasala stood before the mike and as he sung the first line, of the song, a high pitch line, the mike suddenly went off. Everybody was confused, after some time they noticed a snag in the mike and replaced the fuse connecting the mike by putting a stronger wire. The song started with a high pitch, a tragic number, and was recorded only in one take.

    After the recording, the troop members who had earlier whispered, fell at the feet of the maestro, and asked for forgiveness – their tone was sir, we have not seen a singer in our life – recording a song in one take, this is the first time we have seen such a singer, that too singing a composition of shankarjai kishan for the first time.

    Of course, in my view, the song is nothing for ghantasala, it was just a left hand game for him. A man who rendered “siva sankari, Syamala Dandakam, Rasika Raja” – all in one takes, the jeevitha chakram song was nothing for him.

    Shankar jai kishan – both remarked “bahut accha hai sir”.

    There is another song in the film by ghantasala and sarada in the film – composed by shankar jai kishan. This is attractive (in composition) as compared to the solo song of ghantasala in jeevitha chakram. Here is the link for the duet.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLnD3-r8DBE&feature=related

    How, comfortably he renders the song. (this is in 1971, by which time his health was not upto the mark, naturally, as compared to earlier 60’s the voice has changed a bit)

    Satyansh ji,

    The “Syamala Dandakam” was recorded only in one take like siva sankari. Ghantasala told the music director that he is going to sing the song only once and that had to be recorded only in that way. The music director, P Nageshwara rao, (who was siva sankari composer as well) said, I thought that ghantasala would really faint after singing the devotional number, as a true devotee faints with ecstasy and devotion when he sings in praise of god, such were his expressions and range in that rendition, which he sang only once and got it recorded.

    A new news:

    The scientists and doctors wanted to conduct a experimental research on the voice box of ghantasala after his passing away in 1974, for conducting research on how such specialised skills and melody could emanate from vocal chords of the singer. But on religious grounds (since he was a orthodox brahmin) this was not allowed.

    Another landmark for current generations.

    Similar to Mughal e azam – which was remade in colour, the evergreen classical film “mayabazar” (1957) of telugu is released in A P yesterday remade in colour, cinema scope and digital sound. The film is music directed by ghantasala and his songs are evergreen for all ages from the film. The film is running house full even today and tickets are not available. In fact, I had shared a comedy song from this film “sundari nee vanti” some time back in these columns on the advise of Shri Paramjeet ji.

    Prabhanjan ji,

    Do not take any issues seriously, all of us have passed through many such phases. It was only SPB who shone like another light in telugu industry after the “colossus”. Kindly continue to entertain with your posts. In the other thread, you had written a mail to SPB for some clarifications, which in my view is strictly not necessary. Your clarifications are much much enough to know the facts. I agree with almost all your points, there is no dispute in that.

    Thanks.

  399. 399
    Vitthal Says:

    and here is the solo one of the maestro, as referred in my previous post, sudi galilona – music directed by shankar jai kishan

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_pt6FCCaoc&feature=related

  400. 400
    vitthal Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    Videos are not so easily available for tamil and kannada, but after difficulty some songs I have got for ghantasala songs.

    Two tamil songs

    http://www.raaga.com/player4/?id=178084&mode=100&rand=0.6507688319022237

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3M399Ar6f0&feature=related

    Kannada song

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vshq_NkhrJs&feature=related

    Arghya ji,

    Telugu song : could you point similar song (with light changes) in hindi cinema (it is by rafi in hindi)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m8dw6R8YVA&feature=related

  401. 401
    vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji, paramjeet ji, satyansh ji, and others.

    Longing to share a song of P Suseela,

    Anybody who hears this song has to feel happy. ( P suseela melodious number) Music : P Nageshwara Rao (composer for siva sankari song)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyKgHU5n5M4

    Request for views and composition please. (specially last para and raga)

  402. 402
    arghya Says:

    Dear music lovers here- Satyansh, Vitthalji, Paramjeet, Raj and all other esteemed members:

    The dignity of the forums of this site is gettting seriously hampered by the interference of those everfool Rafi fans who now have commented ridiculously on Saigal and his contemporary music on “Endless Feuth” column. Not only this is a childish and senseless comment but also degrades the quality discussion happening in this forum.

    I hope some proper response from Saigal fans come on this.

  403. 403
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji, (Satyansh ji as well)

    A song for you, specially. Could you point similar one from Bengali (by hemant kumar) and by Hindi in mohd. rafi.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo55dh27aHY&feature=related

    (Telugu knowledge would certainly enable to catch the perfect expressions in song – the scene is pacifying his spouse.
    Music and melody you can easily get it.
    the song of ghantasala is followed by a padyam of ghantasala which I am sharing for the first time. Padyam is a dramatic composition sung in a song form and Ghantasala was “the incomparable” in these form of renditions on which I will pen later)

  404. 404
    Srivas Says:

    Kishore fan ji,

    You had earlier requested for some nice discussion on Kishore Kumar songs from musical point of view.

    Well, as a musician, I wish to firmly state that Kishore kumar had a good attraction in his voice, plainly from technical music point of view and none could find any flaw in his renditions. Whatever manner kishore might have sung, might be through rigorous practise or with the guidance of music directors, the expressions and attraction which flows from his voice are “great” and none can dispute this. Very few people have such talents, and incidentally as discussed here, SPB is another singer from the south, who belongs to such class.

    For instance, take a song such as gaata rahe mera dil, or kora kagaz tha yeh man mera etc. I think these songs to some extent have the shades of Mohana Kalyani raga in carnatic, which generally corresponds to the shades of Pahadi raga of the hindusthani. The songs are quite attractive from musical point of view. When I first heard the song kora kagaz tha ye man mera, I felt attracted to the song. By the way, Pahadi raga renditions seem to fit well for kishore kumar.

    Another beautiful rendition in hindi is by Mohd. rafi and lata from tajmahal – jo wada kiya woh nibhana padega, having shades of pahadi raga.

    What I feel is that technically qualified people like rafi could pour expressions musically, based on their training, whereas kishore could do the same with practise and guidance, the thing which many non trained singers cannot do. That is where kishore could create a distinct edge with his voice which had a magnetic and metallic attraction.

    ??? Perhaps this might be reason why many music lovers tilt towards technically trained singers as superior, which they claim that trained singers expressions are certainly different and more effective than those of untrained singers who try to pull out renditions based on guidance rather than relying on their artistic skills.

    Coming to various trained singers, Manna dey is another singer, who belongs to the trained class, and has good control over musical notes, specially command wise on the raga as well as switching of musical notes. P B Srinivas, is another trained singer down south, who has nice control over notes. Only point is PBS range of voice was limited, whereas ghantasala had a very wider range with magnetic force, which made him class apart from others.

    Vitthal ji,

    I was told that ghantasala breathed music literally for 24 hours, perhaps such rigorous practise and interest might be the reason for his skills and specialisation (of course, voice is god gifted which supplemented the skills). Many songs, he is believed to have recorded just in a single take. What do you say ?

  405. 405
    Balarykar Says:

    @Vithal Sir:
    I have developed a personal rapport with Arghya and can also make from the posts who are all rational. There is nothing, at least on online forums, to take them seriously or personally. To be honest we are all fans of our idols irrespective of their commercial success or awards, among others. After a certain point, only sane minds can understand and respect facts as they stand. For example, a true Sukhwinder Singh fan will like the song “Deewane tere naam ke” from the Dilip Kumar and Raj Kumar starrer “Saudagar” more than his most popular songs “Chaiya Chaiya”. Similarly, apart from the obvious and popular song, most of the true fans like their idols true gems.
    I have also got very good support from Satyansh, Paramjeet, Anil, and yourself. This is something worth remembering for ever. So rest assured, things from my end will be as simple as you can expect from any true fan.

    I will search some more Ghantasaala songs from Kannada too 🙂

  406. 406
    arghya Says:

    A request to site admin:
    raIt takes ages to get a post moderated.. Even of the quality of forum interests many people, they lose interest in it after a few weeks because the time taken to get their comments published is long and by the time discussion to their comments start, it is almost a month..This way, how can we make the site popular?

    Either we make the forum open and in case any offending or controversial comments, we delete/moderate that later or else we increase the speed of moderation…

    Why to spoil the name of Guru(like his site is unpopular, lethargic, he does not have mass appeal) for this website because of our own problems??

    I hope this does not hurt anyone.. But this is a bitter truth I have listened to enough…

  407. 407
    vitthal Says:

    Dear Music lovers,

    I repeat again, there is nothing to comment on comments which are capable of creating disturbances.

    On saigal ji, in the other thread, there was a comment.

    Satyansh ji’s earlier post on respect for saigal in hindi industry can suffice for the post.

    Srivas ji,

    Good post. I am in agreement with your views.

    Arghya ji, Paramjeetji, & satyansh ji,

    Waiting for your views on some rare songs, which I have posted earlier.

    Balarykar (Prabhanjan Ji)

    Youtube links for kannada and tamil songs, I am finding it difficult. Other links (in plenty) I could get it, but posting them would not look attractive.

    By the way, today feb. 11th is 36th death anniversary of ghantasala. The vivid bharathi FM rainbow channel of radio has specifically dedicated close to 7 hours today on radio for programme on ghantasala. Our friends, if possible, may please listen to the same.

  408. 408
    vitthal Says:

    Dear Music lovers,

    The details are here (contd. to my last para in previous message)

    http://www.hindu.com/2010/02/09/stories/2010020954020200.htm

  409. 409
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    I’d earlier inquired/quized about Kishore potentially singing in the whistle register (our discussions on Posts [234,243,244, etc.]). Excerpt below:

    “…Whistle register ke baare mein mai isliye pooch raha tha kyonki mere khayal mein Kishore ne woh ek baar gaya tha ya kissi comedy picture ke scene mein masti ki thi (Sadhu aur Shaitan??), yaad nahi aa raha ki yeh sach hai ya khayal. Agar sach mein gaya tha to woh HFM mein shayad highest note hoga (not from modal register). This is just for the sake of information and would be another small skill for the giant genius that is Kishore. I am not sure about it though…”

    Kripaya iss link mein 6:03 to 6:21 suniye – whistle lambi hai aur vibrations bahut funny hain
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnxwVmt9Ems

    Sounds to me like the whistle register, but there are caveats and people might say it is from the falsetto register or something totally different. In any case, what matters is the note he hit and the manner in which he hit it. It sounds easy, but you would already know that it is not. Have other singers in HFM done this? I call this and much more Kishore’s X-factor.

    I will wait for the Rafi-fanatics to reply to our other queries on the other thread. Till then, there is no point getting into meaningless arguments.

  410. 410
    Paramjeet Says:

    satyanshji,

    Bahut bahut dhanyavadd.. Hum aapni baatein chalu rakhte hai, kyunki Rafian naam ke yeh vichitra jeev aaj tak itihaas mein kabhi bhi kisi logic ka logical jawab nahi diya hai..

    Bahut shaandaar! yeh ek ajeeb awaaz nikali hai Kishoreji ne yahan pe.. Aapne ek pashchatya gayika ke jo gaane diye the usse kaafi had tak milta julta hai yeh item. Lajawaab.. Itna high notes kisi bhi Bhartiya gayak ko maine lagate hue nahi suna.

    dhanya ho guruji aur dhanya ho aapke saare bhakt!!

  411. 411
    vitthal Says:

    Satyansh ji, – 407

    Interesting item – whistle register.

    In fact SPB is also another singer who did good mimicking tricks in various movies, Please hear this song of SPB – the whistles, sounds of birds etc. are all mimicry by SPB

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uwn4yogexQ

  412. 412
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji [Post 408],
    Maine bhi aisi awaaz mein Kishore ke ailava kissi bhi HFM ke gayak ko gaate nahi suna. Note ke saath saath Kishore ki “register-al” flexibility par gaur karen. Kya kamaal kiya hai. Rafi-fanatics aadhi-adhuri baatein karke nikal jate hain. Woh to kai baar ho chuka hai. Ab dekhen woh “An Endless Feud…” thread mein kya kehte hain.

    Vithal ji [Post 409],
    I loved the song. It was very entertaining. I am definitely learning to appreciate SPB a lot more. He can sound sweet if he wants to and he also has the ability to sound funny. I wish I understood the language. Whistling is different from singing in the whistle register. While bird sounds can be and are often made from the whistle-register, I could not catch any example of the same in this song. However, with my limited understanding of what SPB can do based upon songs you and Prabhanjan have shared; I believe he can do it, as also Manna Dey. Amongst today’s singers I think Sonu Nigam can do the same. The reason I say this is because Kishore demonstrated amazing flexibility at switching registers and these three singers also possess those qualities in varying degrees. I feel this was one of Kishore’s greatest strengths. As another side note, I am yet to hear a singer with a break as pronounced as Kishore in switching from chest voice to falsetto, another great quality of Kishore Kumar.

  413. 413
    arghya Says:

    Whistling Register Singing

    Satyansh/Paramjeet

    Yesterday, at the Press Conference of Kishoreda the Legend-Foundation we presented this accomplishment of Kishore in front of around 50 people from Press and Media. We explained “whistle register” singing with examples of Mariah Carey videos(thanks to Satyansh) and then we presented them this clip of Kishoreda which he did 20 years before Mariah Carey arrived- singing in whistle register. And the entire hall was dumbstuck. Even legendary musician Bhanu Gupta was stunned with surprise. He said “I never knew I could learn new things about this man by coming to this press conference”… Just a small jewel in the crown of this astoundinh genius.

    Vitthalji,

    “whistling” and “singing in whistle register” are entirely different. As you know, there are three “modal registers” in vocal singing. When you cross them and try hit a note in, say, fifth or sixth octave(eg,E6 or E7), your voice makes a “whistling sound” owing to a very very high note hitting. Watch this video of Mariah(known worldwide for her whistling regsiter singing). Mariah is told to have a five octave range with three modal registers and two whistle registers.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS3cgGKDC6Y

    Now, what Kishore did (in fun) is exactly the same!!! He hit the whistling notes continously for 15 seconds with added vibrations! And that sound pertains hitting a note in fifth octave(Satyansh, please correst me if I am wrong)… Perhaps, the highest note hit by any Indian singer(even if in fun)… Now, this is called real superhuman.. Get amazed by this genius from Khandwa with this just like Bhanuji who worked with Kishorda for 25 years and still did not know that!!!!!!

  414. 414
    Paramjeet Says:

    Arghya bhai/ Satyansh bhai,

    Mujhe ab samajh mein aaya ke aap log ‘whistling register’ se kya mean kar rahe the.. Asal mein Hindustani shastriya sangeet mein aesa koi adhyay hai hi nahi.. Aur mujhe jaise nacheez vyakti, jisko pashchatya sangeet ki jaankari zyada nahi hai, uske liye samajhna thoda mushkil ho raha tha.

    Satyanshji,
    Jab aap ne mujh se poochha tha 1-2 mahine pehle tab main kuchh alag hi bola raha tha. Maafi chahta hoon us baat ke liye..

    Ek hi baat bolunga… Lajawab, behetareen… Aesa ajooba hindustan mein ek hi tha- Kishore Kumar!!!

    Satyanshji se main bolunga, SPB shayad yeh kar sakte hai.. Bahut hi flexible awaaz hai unki.. Magar Sonu jaise patli awaaz wale gayak aesa karenge to bahut ajeeb lagega aur woh maza nahi aayega jo Kishoreji mein hai.

  415. 415
    vitthal Says:

    arghya,

    Yes, that was interesting to note. I have listened to the one which kishore did in satyansh ji’s post.

    By the way, I am waiting for Yourself and to Satyansh as well to come back on some rare songs which I had posted for your views. Many posts are coming now a days, this site is full busy with discussions, credit goes to you as well as paramjeet ji, and others for keeping discussions alive. I can understand that it is not so easy to respond to each and every post in view of the numerous posts being posted here for discussions.

  416. 416
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,
    Aap bahut hi vinamra insaan hain isliye apne aap ko nacheez keh sakte hain. Aapki sangeet ki jankaari ka to hum sab labh uTHate hain. Mai aapki baat se bilkul sehmat hoon ki patli awaazon mein iss ada ka utna mazaa nahi aayega. Mai flexibility ko highlight kar raha tha. Aur halaki personally mai bhi Sonu ki emoting ka itna bada fan nahi hoon, mai uske tayaar gale ki bahut kadar karta hoon. Aap yeh dekhiye ki Kishore ko awaaz par kitna zabardast control tha – he never fails to amaze me.

    Now that we’ve highlighted Kishore’s register-al flexibility, I’d like to ask everybody’s opinion on Rafi’s range viz-a-viz Kishore including modal, falsetto and whistle registers. In the modal register, Kishore and Rafi are only a couple of notes here and there where Kishore goes lower whereas Rafi goes higher. If you include the other registers, does any singer in HFM match up to Kishore? All the posts that I’ve read have either ignored or understated Kishore’s range including all registers. This might be primarily because this (whistle register) aspect has only just been pointed out.

    Ab kuch purane gaanon ki charcha ho jaye janaab. Maine Arghya se kaha tha ki mai Saigal ke time ke kuch behatareen gaane aur meri limited jaankari mein baaki legends par unka potential prabhav yahan share karunga. In general, I will attempt to highlight 2 songs per post – detail discussions aap log bhi please CHeden.
    1) A song that highlights Saigal’s influence on legends that came after him, and
    2) A personal favorite – a song that I personally can’t imagine in anyone else’s style.
    If anyone does not have these songs, please post here.

    Chunki yeh Kishore Kumar ka forum hai, in the first category, I’d like to highlight the song “Kisne Yeh Sab Khel Rachaya”. In this song, in addition to the trademark heavy voice, you will hear the softer tone as well. I believe this to be an inspiration to what I call Kishore’s “CHhani hui awaaz”. Of course, Kishore was OUTSTANDING at that texture of his as well. The one line that moves me a lot in this song is “Inke Upar Aakar Chidki Rang Roop Ki Maya”, especially how he says “maya” the first time. It is very soft and brilliantly done. Also, pay attention to how beautifully it starts with the question “Kis Ne?”. Also love how he stretches “Chhupaya” in “Apne Aap Sab Kuch Karke Apna Aap Chhupaya”. This was one of the great examples of classic expression of poetry.

    In the second category, I’d like to share a personal favorite – “Nuktaachee..n Hai Gam-E-Dil”. IMO, noone else could do justice to this style and Saigal’s modulations trump all others. I have heard at least 3 other versions of this (Rafi, Suraiya and if I remember correctly Noorjahan) and I love the other versions too, especially Suraiya’s version. Please pay attention to the way Saigal says “bulata” in the line “Mai bulata to hoon” and then the way he stretches “hoon”. Let me know if you’ve heard anybody else do justice to it. I really enjoy all other singers, but IMHO, I’m not sure if I’ve heard this level of adayegi and voice modulation from any singer. Compare it to other singers’ modulations in this song and please share your opinions. What can one say about Ghalib? AMAZING!!!

    Arghya, The media story was awesome. Kishore Kumar continues to amaze people. Yeh gaane bhejta hoon.

    Vithal ji,
    Lost track of this thread and some of your posts. Will soon listen to those songs you posted.

  417. 417
    Raj Says:

    Vitthal ji,

    I agree with paramjeet that in such kind of experiments kishore was certainly great. Kishore was a man of multi talents, actor, even composer, comedian, singer of variety abilities, and I do not find any other singer in HFM who had exhibited such abilities.

  418. 418
    Raj Says:

    Further, vitthal ji, 402 post,

    The song o cheli kopama, by ghantasala, I loved the song and his magnificient voice. Great tune and pacifying expressions were nice to see. The padyam after the song, which you have shared for the first time was also good, especially the taan in the end. Yes, I remember having heard the song by rafi as well in hindi, but am not able to recall the hindi songs and lyrics. I do not know the bengali version of the song, perhaps Arghya ji could throw more light on that point.

    The P Suseela song, meera jala galada, was very melodious. The lenghty taan in the last para really, made a interesting hearing. I think the heroine is same in both the songs ( o cheli kopama and this song) i.e. jamuna who had also acted in a hindi film called humrahi.

    The SPB song taali kattu….. in your post 409 was also good to hear. SPB did good mimicry in that song. I think SPB too is a man of different talents like kishore.

    Thanks for the songs.

  419. 419
    vitthal Says:

    Arghyaji, paramjeet ji, Satyansh ji, and all other friends,

    The encyclopaedia (wikipedia) in google on ghantasala has been re-invented and re-drafted. I wanted to share the link with all of you.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghantasala –

    (pl. click on singer blog)

  420. 420
    vitthal Says:

    contd… sorry, if the link does not open, this may be referred.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghantasala_Venkateswara_Rao

  421. 421
    Balarykar Says:

    @All:
    As promised long back, though I could not ask SPB himself on 21 Feb, I have got the answers to two of the questions that I raised about a month back.

    My two friends Vikas and Nand Kishore asked the questions to SPB on 27 Feb when he came to Mumbai for being felicitated Raagalaya Award in Mumbai.
    Regarding the first question, SPB answered that the Saagar song “Yun hi gaate raho” was not recorded jointly with Kishore Kumar. KK first recorded his part and SPB later did his part. As such SPB never met KK. This is the story for this part.

    Later he was asked ‘point blank’ as to why he does not mention other (legendary) singers even partly as frequently as he mentions Rafi. He was very clear about this. He said that he has never said that Mukesh, KK, or Talat Mehmod are bad singers, or ever made any negative comment about any of them. All of them are good singers and as such he has always liked Rafi as a ‘personal’ best and mostly refers Rafi always. He also mentioned that among the contemporary singers (in his era) Suresh Wadkar is the most complete singer but rarely we see people mention about him.

    P.S: I have not put anything in quotes because I have heard these remarks from my friends, and even a word misplaced will be misleading. To sum it up, I recollect SPB having said in the past that during his college days he grew up listening Rafi songs on radio and idolized him ever since. Not being a trained singer himself, it seems that SPB may have been that fan to Rafi just like most of us here love Kishore, or others from rafi forum like Rafi, and so on. It seems then natural to mention your that idol than any others.

  422. 422
    Vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji & paramjeet ji,

    I wanted to share with you an excerpt of a speech of ghantasala on Indian cinema music in 1963 wherein he expressed his views on north and south indian music. Here, I am sharing ONLY his views on hindi music. He stated that among Hindi music directors, the following musicians were responsible for greatly influencing the indian cinema music.

    Naushad, C Ramachandra, Anil Biswas, Pankaj Mallick, Vasant Desai, Hemant Kumar, O P Nayyar, Shankar Jai Kishan and S D Burman.

    You remember the not pleasurable comments on anil biswas earlier, and the above information is certainly a wonder. Anil biswas enjoyed the praise of a reputed musician of the south.

  423. 423
    vitthal Says:

    dear friends,

    Let us forget about the comparison factors etc. and restrict it to other blog purely, as this blog contains the heading “divine and devotional” which are very very pure terms and music belongs to only such category. A devotional from G , I wanted to share here

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=–JLRpZE6GA

  424. 424
    vitthal Says:

    Sorry, wrong attachment, here it is.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=–JLRpZE6GA

  425. 425
    vitthal Says:

    Again extremely sorry.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KlZcX3dZqE

  426. 426
    Musharraf Says:

    Vitthalji, I have listened to Ghantasala. He is an excellent singer.Needless to say he has a edge in classical songs as manifested in the telegu version of “Kuhu Kuhe bole”. Manna Dey also falls under this category. My question to you is that has Ghantasala sung high pitch songs like “O dunuya ke rakhwale”, “Zindabad, Aye mohabbat zindabad” or patriotic songs like” Jahan dal dal pe” , “kar chale ham fida jaan tan sathiyon”? Has he sung kawalies like “yeh ishq ishq hai” or” Subhanallah,haseen chehra”? There are still other areas that may be mentioned.My contention is that a successful singer is one who can sing all types of songs through which he can capture the heart of masses and do not remain confined to a particular type of listning group.

  427. 427
    Paramjeet Says:

    Sabhi tarah ke gaane to Sonu Nigam bhi ga lete hai. Kya fir woh Talat Mehmood ya Ghulam Ali se bade gayak ho gaye? Mere khayal se jin logon ne sangeet ki charcha theek se kari hai weh kabhi bhi itne assurity se nahi bol sakte ke kaun greatest hai aur kaun nahi.. Kyunki weh fir sirf qawalli ya ghazal ke CD aur Cassettes ke number nahi dekhte, balki sur ka pakad, saanson pe niyantran, awaaz ki khulavat, swar ki madhurta, saptakon pe paarkhi adi ityadi cheezon ko zyada mahatva dete hai. Har tarah ke gaane ga lena greatest hone ka guaranty nahi hai, haan versatile hone ka zaroor hai.
    Dhanyavad.

  428. 428
    Arghya Says:

    Hi friends and Kishoreji fans,

    just forget those controversial debates and enjoy this piece of news.

    http://blog.taragana.com/politics/2010/03/21/gandhi-tagore-kishore-reigned-in-koiralas-heart-24600/

    Girija Prasad Koirala- the statesman from neighbouring country of Nepal who demised some time back- had admitted of being influenced highly by three Indians in his life- Mahatma Gandhi, Rabindranath Tagore and Kishore Kumar. Indeed very proud statements he made which can be seen in that link. Looking at the way Nepal is reacting to India of late, this statement of Kishore Kumar’s popularity transcending borders is really encouraging.

  429. 429
    vitthal Says:

    Musharaff ji, – friend – thanks for your post to me.

    Regarding your doubts, i request you kindly to have a look at my post 418 here and please read the same.

    Since I have already stated the facts, as you have requested, I am again putting the points, as brief as possible.

    I state that yes, extreme high pitches and extreme low pitches have comfortably rendered by ghantasala, in fact, his voice range easily enveloped all the three pitches. The siva sankari song is one of the examples in this regard. Many other extreme high pitch songs have also been shared here. Qawalis, comedy genres, patriotic genres, devotionals etc. etc. (for many youtube links are not available – you have to listen them in cassettes available in market) there are plenty to mention, he was a great versatile genius who virtually was the monarch of telugu playback singing for close to 3 decades and this should be enough for your questions. Kindly have a look at the following link ; You will get the answer: (this has already been shared here couple of times)

    http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2003/02/11/stories/2003021100450100.htm

    I hope you will appreciate the same.

    Thanks a lot again for your post and comment.

    Regards,

    Vitthal

  430. 430
    vitthal Says:

    Arghya ji,

    that is a nice piece of information. Kishore kumar arguably as well as inarguably, is a quite popular singer. There is no iota of doubt in that.

  431. 431
    Musharraf Says:

    Vitthal ji Paramjeet ji,

    Thank you very much for your kind response. I have listened to “Shiva Shamkari” of Ghantasala. Actually this is more of a classical song than a high pitch song. This song, if I am not wrong because my knowledge in classical songs is not deep, is tuned on “Darbari’ and based on “teen taal”. It starts with a short “alaap’ and then goes on with ‘Taan” for the rest of the time for which Ghantasala is remarkable. At the end of the song during the “Taan’ Ghontasala goes at a high pitch and stays there only for a few seconds and that does not cross the pitch rendered by Rafi that he reaches singing “Rahkwaale” for the last time.

    On the other hand “Duniya ke rakhwale though based on “Darbari’ is more of a high pitch song although it has a classical flavor. In all the four “Antaras” of the song Rafi went to extremely high pitch and held his voice steady.”Zindabaad, aye Mohabbat zindabad’ is another high pitch song of Rafi representing revotution of love without classical touch.

    In my humble opinion, after listening to songs of Ghantasala, he is classically more versatile than any of the playback singers and his classical based songs are his best ones. The song Shiva Shankari is the best example.He could also have been an exellent classical singer if he wanted to make his career in classical music.

    Rafi on the other hand can not be branded as a classical singer although did sing classical songs in films such as “Madhuban mein radhika” or “Man tadpat hari darshan” etc which became extremely popular. He sang a wide range of other songs. But what is remarkable about Rafi’s voice is whatever he sang became an outstanding song that won hearts of millions of people. and brought him enormous popularity and recognition and placed him above other playback singers. If one listens to Rafi’s songs, to quote a few, of the films “Dosti”, Taajmahal”,Mere mehboob” or “Baiju Bawra” and compare them to the songs of any playback singer in any language of India he will understand the genious and versatility of Mohammed Rafi.

    There is a lot of difference between Rafi and Sonu Nigam. In fact Rafi was Sonu Nigams idol and Sonu came into limelight by singing Rafi’s songs. In London Sonu Nigham sang Rafi’s song in Royal Albert Hall in a program “Resurrection of Rafi”

    If Ghantasala was the monarch of telegu songs, Mohammed Rafi was the “Playback gayakon ki Badshah” as qouted by Amin Sayani in celebrating 25 years of ‘Binaca geetmala” in radio Ceylon.Rafi held this position for nerarly two degades amid competition from other musical giants like Kishore Kumar, Manna dey, Talat mahmood, Mukesh etc.Manna Dey once remarked about Rafi, ” Such a big artist was not born in the last 100 years, nor will be born in the coming 100 years.”

    Lastly my humble submission is that I have respect for all the singers. I have also respect for other’s choice. As Vitthal ji is a fan of Ghantasala, I am a fan of Mohammed rafi and if I am not wrong Arghya ji loves Kishore kumar.

  432. 432
    Paramjeet Says:

    Musharafji,
    Maine sonu nigam ke saath rafi sahab ki comparison nahi ki.. Comparison rajaon ke beech mein hoti hai, raja aur rank mein nahi.. Magar mere kehne ka yeh matlab tha ke sirf versatility hi greatest banne ke liye kaafi nahi hai. Main khud rafi sahab ka bhakt hoon magar mujhe kishoreji zyada pasand hai.. Ho sakta hai kishoreji ne ‘madhuban mein radhika’ ya ‘ parda hai parda’ jaise bhajan ya qawalli nahi gaye, magar phir Rafi ne bhi ‘ aake seedhi lagi’ ya ‘ main jhumroo’ jaise adbhut gaane nahi gaye.. Agar rafi sahab unke gaye nahi gaate to koi aur gaata (Manna ji ya aur koi), beshaq utni madhurta se nahi(koi sandeh mat rakhiyega usmein)’ magar agar Kishoreji waise gaane nahi gaate to shayad hindi film gaano ke itihaas mein hi aese gaane na bante.. Salil Choudhri kabhi nahi soche the kishoreji ladki ki awaaz mein ya ek bachchein ki awaaz mein aese ga sakte hai. Khair chhodo, aapko baat shayad samajh mein nahi padegi…

    Rafi sahab beshaq high notes ke guru the.. Main khud yeh kehte aa raha hoon itne dinon se.. Magar sangeet sirf tar saptak tak hi seemit nahi hai. Aage aur kuchh nahi bolunga, bahut baar bol chuka hoon.

    Playback singing mein main Kishoreji ko Rafi sahab se aage hi rakhoonga.. Rafi sahab bhi bahut hi bahatareen parsha gayak the magar jis tarah se gaane ki sahi roop pakad ke, sahi tarah se emote karke aur enact karke Kishoreji gaanon ko pesh karte the woh asadharan aur bemisaal hai. Aur kuchh nahi kahunga, bahut baar keh chuka hoon.

    Abhi ke liye itna hi. Dhanyavaad…

  433. 433
    Vitthal Says:

    Musharaff ji, POST ONLY FOR YOU

    Thanks for your post.

    PARAMJEET JI, YOU ARE BETTER EQUIPPED FROM MUSICAL POINT OF VIEW TO REPLY TO MUSHARAFF JI ON SIVA SANKARI, WHICH WAS RENDERED ONLY IN ONE TAKE.

    Musharaff ji, classical musicians have opined that (both hindusthani and carnatic) that siva sankari is the most toughest song known in playback singing, and the pitch is higher than the one in o duniya ke rakhwale.

    Just hear this link, a devotional sanskrit rendition from a telugu film mahakavi kalidasu, wherein ghantasala reaches the top note present in music. i.e sa in the higher octave (around 2 : 45) – highest comfortably sustaining. This rendition has been acclaimed (by musicians) as an incomparable rendition challenging the best of skills of a singer. Ghantasala, however, renders it quite comfortably. See his command on the diction, pronounciation and comfort, range on notes, modulation etc. THIS WAS ALSO RENDERED IN ONE TAKE ONLY.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3w5omAMF98

    Musharaff ji, – you had not replied to my post wherein I had given you a link on ghantasala – have you read it carefully. That should keep at rest your notion of his classical songs being more famous than his non classical songs. True, as you say, he was classically versatile than others, but he was a versatile filmy singer as well, you can know from the link. The thing is, his classical songs have become more famous with everybody, whereas songs in “other genres” continue to remain evergreen peerless favourites with Andhras, (might be due to language stream diference expressions required for non classical songs ) similar to the ones of rafi and kishore.

    Thanks again for your post and views, which I respect & similar regards with receiprocations. Hope we can wind our discussion with this post, If your doubts are satisfied, because I think, the forum should not be misused much with other discussions, however great they may be.

  434. 434
    Khan Says:

    Musharaff sahab,

    I respect your views to only certain extent. I think you have to know much much about ghantasala sahab to arrive at such conclusion. As I was given to understand, he was not only a versatile classical singer but a versatile filmy playback singer and music director as well, who ruled telugu film industry close to 3 decades, a feat perhaps no other playback singer in India might have achieved.

    Next, your comment on siva sankari vs. o duniya ke rakhwale, both in darbari kannad rags, the siva sankari song is far tougher than o duniya ke and much wider covering all the 3 octaves, whereas the hindi song o duniya ke is not much wider like siva sankari. The siva sankari song has been composed in more notes whereas o duniya ke is certainly lesser in number of notes (goes for sa to da in two different octaves at the maximum) Whereas siva sankari goes form da note in lowest octave to highest ni note in the final octave thus covering more notes than the hindi one and accordingly fulfilling the requirements of a more high pitch composition than the high pitch in hindi song. Ghantasala sahab renders all the octaves with comfortable ease, without any strain with perfect modulations, exactly hitting notes with perfection, fulfilling exactly the requirements of the darbari kannad. the ease in rafi sahab’s voice is clearly less as compared to ghantasala sahab’s rendition. Ghantasala sahab clearly envelopes rafi sahab in all angles. The concluding rag continuously hitting highest ni in final octave close to 5 to 7 times with ease, is exemplary. The hindi composition of Naushad sahab is surely great and rafi sahab has done justice fully to the extent possible, but the same is no where near the siva sankari composition – a rendition & composition par excellence and to my knowledge the greatest of all filmy classical songs composed till date.

    I think these points were clarified many times earlier too, including by other carnatic and hindusthani musicians.

  435. 435
    Arghya Says:

    Has there been ever so much of experimentation in film playback music since that man?

    People near and dear to him say he could effortlessly replicate bandishes of Bade Ghulam Ali Khan sahab in isolation.. But when asked to do the same behind microphone in recording rooms, he declined uprightly, saying much in the line of spirit of his mentor Dada Burman that ‘film music should be light and understandable to common man only’..

    Abhas Kumar Ganguly still holds a huge with a capital H- number of innovations and experimentations in Hindi playback music which remain unparallelled even today. People aped and copied him but no new innovation in the same line could be seen even today with so much help of techno digital recordings and acoustic innovations.

    So, here he comes up with the first ever yoodelling in Indian Cine music in 1950 with “Aati hai yaad humko january february”, encouraged by none other than his first true admirer and father of music direction in modern indian cinema-Khemchand Prakash. The records of Jimmy Rodgers which had inspired the 21 year old lad now started getting overshadowed slowly but surely over the time. So was the perfection Kishore achieved in this falsetto breaking head voice that after one of his performances in Wembley Stadium much later, the British media listening to “Main hoon jhumroo” declared that – this Mr. Kumar can yoodel better than even Jimmy Rodgers”!!! History takes a turn :).. Who would believe that it was indeed JR, whose yoodelling had once inspired Kishore.

    So, again he comes up and makes the first and only “hichki”(hiccup) song in Hindi in 1957- “Aaj na jaane pagal manwa”.. He hiccupped 24 times in that song with four hiccups at a stretch at a time and never missing a note.. And added a topping on the ice cream with a superb yoodelling towards the end.

    There he goes stunning the senior MD Salil Chwodhury twice in Half Ticket in 1962. Once, by singing a song with two different voices- one of a child and one of a man- “Are waah re mere maalik” and again with another bivocal song -the classic- “Aake seedhi lagi”. Indeed surprising though is that Kishore had already done a bivocal song(perhaps first ever in Hindi movies) around 10 years back! Only C Ramchandra would have known the genius of that singer when in 1952, Kishore effortlessly sang a bi-vocal “Charandas ko peene ki jo adat” with singing and acting.

    What Ms Carey started perfectionizing whistling notes in the 80s, this Khandwa genius-just casually and with hardly anyone’s notice, did that stunt in 1967 at the age of 42, in Sadhu aur Shaitaan.

    And add to that the first wooing and purely sensual rain song in Hindi movies- “ek ladki bheegi bhaagi si” to the best ever sensual song in Hindi film history- “roop tera mastana”, Kishore held a sexuality in his voice without going vulgar. He simply carried an awed passion and seduction which swayed the nation with “Dil kya kare jab kisise” or “Hothon pe jaan chali aayegi” much later.

    And his falsettos-of course! At the age of 51, this guy could effortlessly render a romantic song fully in his falsetto register(coming out of his baritonal structure)- ‘Chhukar mere man ko”- only because the MD, Rajesh Roshan, wanted him to go softer. The same request he had obliged around 10 years back to Laxmikant Pyarelal, when the duo had wanted the same from him in the best ever song on life- “Yeh jeevan hai”… He did them time and time over again.. Not to forget the newcomer Bappi’s modified plagiarized song” Dil se mile hai dil”, which he sang in three different falsettos … And it was he who pressurized Bappi to change the tune of that song as initially it had sounded too similar to RD’s “Aese na mujhe tum dekho”..

    There he goes in his stage performances which the nation had never seen before. Forget harmoniums and standing in a corner of a stage and crooning, Kishore Kumar would sommersolt, shout, scream, mimic and entirely fire up the audience like none else. A performer unparallelled, he truely showed how singing can entertain rags to riches.

    Kishore kumar- the first and the only singing phenomenon- as Satyajit Ray had put him.

  436. 436
    Sudheer Says:

    Arghya ji,

    Yes, kishore was a phenomenon in hindi. But I don’t think kishore would have been able to attempt songs like yeh chaand sa roshan chehra, mohabbat zindabad, oh duniya ke rakhwaley etc. where not only modulations are required, but even high pitch voice is required, which in my view, kishore simply did not had that range to render such type of renditions. Nothing much to take offense on this, kishore was good in the “type of songs” he rendered and in my view most of the songs of kishore belong to that particular type in which he was comfortable to render. Most of the compositions were made in such a manner so as to enable kishore to sing the songs. In fact, I simply love kishore for the type of songs he rendered. Rafi on the other hand had a wide range of voice which could attempt and bring beauty to various genres which kishore could not attempt. The yodelling genre was first attempted by rafi in hindi and thinking that it is a dilution from pure music, rafi had shifted from it and the result we know was the golden era of hindi playaback singing of 50’s and 60’s. I am sure, kishores every song could have been rendered by rafi and on the contrary, many of rafi songs could not have been even attempted by kishore. It is just because kishore did not have that wider range of voice which is necessary to render high pitch songs, which was possessed by rafi and by the way this wider range of voice was even possessed by ghantasala, though I do not want to compare ghantasala and kishore kumar here.

    Also, since it is a column on devotional songs, I could not think kishore can create any patch on rafi in this particular genre, as rafi was way ahead of kishore, as you yourself put it in the last para of your article.

  437. 437
    Surajit Bose Says:

    Sudheer,

    Fair point. Yes, Kishore would not have been able to match Rafi in songs like “Yeh chaand sa roshan chehra” or “Hum bekhudi mein tum ko” or “O Duniya ke rakhwaale”.

    Using that logic, even Rafi would not have been able to match Kishore in songs like “Jeevan ke safar mein rahi” or “Dukhi mann mere” or “Aa chal ke tujhe” or “Aake seedhi lagi dil pe”.

    Sorry, I disagree about Rafi’s yodelling capabilities. When you yodel, you basically are crossing registers, from full voice to
    falsetto. For this yodel to really have the “popping” effect, you need a particular type of voice, with a decent amount of separation between registers. Kishore was (extremely) successful with this; my
    guess is that Rafi as a tenor, had a smoother “break” between registers and would not be as successful.

    It’s funny how you say that every song of Kishore’s can be rendered by Rafi, and not vice versa. Nothing can be farther from the truth. There is no way Rafi could’ve yodelled the way Kishore has done, and Rafi couldn’t have sung the title song in “Jhumroo”, or many such songs.

    Let me talk about their singing highlighting two aspects.

    Firstly, most lay-Rafi-fans (Rafi fans without the knowledge or grounding in Indian Classical Music) jump to the conclusion that Rafi is a superior singer to Kishore, without elaborating, in a technically meaningful way, how they came to that conclusion.

    Their “proof” being the large number of “classical” songs that Rafi has sung, as compared to Kishore.

    Nobody talks anything about “how well” Rafi has sung those classical songs. I reiterate that in the “classical” songs that were really challenging (like “kuhu kuhu boley koyaliya” or “jhananan jhan jhananan jhan” – from “Rani Roopmati” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suZPPgnsKhc , or “Baat chalat nayee rang dari” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoQJIy8o9Qc ), Rafi was very pedestrian in rendering them. Rafi could barely navigate taans, even straightforward ones. And the ones that he rendered decently (“Madhuban mein radhika”, “Man re tu kahe”) didn’t really contain any challenging passages to be classified as “classical songs”.

    You cannot say, on one hand, that Rafi was a better singer than Kishore because he rendered classical songs while Kishore did not, and on the other hand, plead, when someone points out obvious flaws in his classical renditions, that it’s unfair to judge Rafi’s classical renditions based on “absolute classical terms”. You cannot have it both ways.

    Also, I am amused by Rafi fans who harp on his capabilities in singing “high pitched” songs. Because it’s convenient to forget that Rafi has very few songs that he rendered ably in the lower registers. Why should the ability to sing in the high pitch be considered any superior to the ability to sing in the lower pitch. High-pitched or low-pitched is a factor of the voice, and has nothing to do with actual talent.

    Here is one song by Rafi that was set to a low register, and he was distinctly uncomfortable.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PKNh4ceh14

    I will say that Kishore at least had the sense to stay away from classical songs instead of mangling them the way Rafi does.

    You want to hear classical film songs that were really good, even in “absolute classical terms” ? Look no further than the Mangeshkar sisters. Here are a couple of good ones:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4-K7vbU0rM&feature=PlayList&p=ECA9C6C07543DEF1&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=4 in Jaijaivanti.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxAxLGrJ-Ac in Bhoop/Deshkar.

    Secondly, I’ll say this about their contributions to music. If Rafi hadn’t ventured into music, the Hindi film musical universe would’ve been much poorer, for his songs (not classical songs, just film songs) wouldn’t have been replicated with the same effect and expression that he was known for.

    But if Kishore had not been around, not only would the musical universe been poorer (for the same reasons as Rafi), but it would have been smaller too, for an entire genre of film songs – comedy, fun & frolic – would’ve been absent.

    You can be a Rafi fan for many reasons – and there are many – but not based on his classical songs, or because he is technically superior (neither of which can be proven).

    When you assess a singer technically, you look at various factors. They are:

    Sur – most basic requirement
    Voice quality
    Vocal range – (number of notes that the meat of their voice covers)
    Voice modulation
    Expression

    Once these have all been met successfully, we can call upon higher technical skills like the ability to render “classical” songs that involve murkis, taans, sargams etc. This is the realm where Lata and Asha reside.

    Going by that list, there is no concrete evidence that Rafi is technically superior to Kishore. Both excel in all the basic categories.

    I agree that Rafi has more beautiful compositions to his name (and a fair amount of the credit should go to the outstanding MDs who ruled during his time – Naushad, OPN, SDB, SJ etc.), but that is not sufficient “evidence” to claim that he was a “better” singer than Kishore.

    “Greater” and “better” are two mutually exclusive attributes, and one can be one without being the other. I can agree that Rafi was a “greater” singer than Kishore, but disagree with the claims about him being a “better” singer.

  438. 438
    Kishorefan Says:

    Arghya ji,

    A great post – keep it up

    Sudheer bhai,

    Thanks for your post. Your points are well noted. In the other blog, Just your another friend Mr. Dhaniram had come and has given some useful illustrations and great examples and enlightened us for which we are very grateful. Now, We are very very happy to see your beautiful post on rafi and his songs.

    Jara soch ke baat kiya karo – rafi fans ji.

    Arghya ji was talking about experimentation in hindi playback singing. Just seeing one para on kishore kumar and suddenly putting up a post on rafi and his songs and saying all blah blah blah. Kindly please have a look at Arghya ji’s post which is so dignified and no where has any comparison feature with any singer or issue. Not only this para, even other music lovers in this thread of kishore kumar have not resorted to such biased comparisons on their own. Comparisons come only when biased fans (mainly of rafi) just start claiming that rafi was that and that and start talking about other singers. Even if they do not specifically discuss about other singers, they state in their posts, no singer can sing this song of rafi and blah blah blah like Mr. Dhaniram has just stated in the other blog about chal ud ja re panchi – for rafi stating that it was much much better than the ghantasala version (which is in fact the other way) and he has received what he has to receive from music lovers. Mr. dhaniram is not to be heard or seen after the responses he received for his post. I request you kindly to stop singing rafi naam in a biased way, otherwise same thing or response may happen to you as well.

    Rafi was great, so kishore was as well great. This is the fact of HFM and no body can dispute or change this. Remember always, it was kishore who had dethroned rafi and I would not like to say much, as we have respect for all great singers.

  439. 439
    Anil Says:

    Arghya,
    I have no intention to contest the content or the logical conclusion of your post (#433). Infact I agree with you on many points. However I have to point out some not-so-true and/or exaggerated stuff that you mentioned as support to your claims.
    *The records of Jimmy Rodgers which had inspired the 21 year old lad now started getting overshadowed slowly but surely over the time. So was the perfection Kishore achieved in this falsetto breaking head voice that after one of his performances in Wembley Stadium much later, the British media listening to “Main hoon jhumroo” declared that – this Mr. Kumar can yoodel better than even Jimmy Rodgers”!!! History takes a turn .. Who would believe that it was indeed JR, whose yoodelling had once inspired Kishore.*
    I wouldn’t take anyone who declared this (if he/she did it) seriously. There were/are many Western vocalists who are better equipped than Kishore when it comes to yodelling. This is not to say that KK’s yodelling is not good, actually he was one of the better ones, none of the folks who tried his ‘jhumroo..’ or other such songs could do it quite as well (though I have listened to some fairly decent versions of KK’s yodelling songs). I wouldn’t also buy your “KK took over the yodelling baton from JR” theory. There is only a very miniscule portion of the Western audience who have actually heard KK (or any other Indian singer for that matter). For them there are many yodellers, some came before JR, some during his time and some after him and KK is not one of them. I have to reiterate here that this is not to belittle KK in any manner; his yodelling was class act. The contrast between his modal voice (deep and rough) and the falsetto voice (when he yodelled) made his yodelling especially catchy, something we miss in Sonu’s yodelling.
    *And his falsettos-of course! At the age of 51, this guy could effortlessly render a romantic song fully in his falsetto register(coming out of his baritonal structure)- ‘Chhukar mere man ko”- only because the MD, Rajesh Roshan, wanted him to go softer. The same request he had obliged around 10 years back to Laxmikant Pyarelal, when the duo had wanted the same from him in the best ever song on life- “Yeh jeevan hai”…*
    Neither ‘chukkar mere man..’ or ‘yeh jeevan hai..’ has been sung in falsetto register. False voice? yes, partly; but not falsetto register. For KK, the falsetto register would start from about c4 (since his modal register extends upto e4/f4). Both these cases are good examples of voice modulations but are not exactly falsetto singing (though he goes into falsetto in some parts of ‘chukkar mere man…’). Rafi’s ‘ooparwala jaankar anjaan..’ and ‘mere duniya…’ are some other songs in HFM were the singer employs majorly head voice to give it a soft feel. In the song “Jaanu meri jaan..” KK does employ falsetto singing during that ‘hei…….’ alaap. He also sings in falsetto in many of his yodelling songs (during the transition from chest voice to the yodelling- which itself is falsetto- voice).
    *What Ms Carey started perfectionizing whistling notes in the 80s, this Khandwa genius-just casually and with hardly anyone’s notice, did that stunt in 1967 at the age of 42, in Sadhu aur Shaitaan*
    Mariah is not the first one to sing/sound in whistle registers. Mariah herself was highly influenced by a singer named Minnie Ripertone. There were/ are several lesser known singers who sang/sing in whistle register. Speaking of KK’s effort, I don’t take it for whistle register singing. To me it sounded as if he is inhaling air in. The voice (for its frequency) is pretty much in the whistle register, but is it ‘singing’? However I have to say KK’s effort is pretty ‘experimental’ and very very funny.

  440. 440
    Khan Says:

    Surajit Bose sahab, 435,

    Your all points are correct. I was just mentioning your points in the other thread in one of my posts. Your following para – I fully agree with them and are correct.

    “You can be a Rafi fan for many reasons – and there are many – but not based on his classical songs, or because he is technically superior (neither of which can be proven).

    When you assess a singer technically, you look at various factors. They are:

    Sur – most basic requirement
    Voice quality
    Vocal range – (number of notes that the meat of their voice covers)
    Voice modulation
    Expression

    Once these have all been met successfully, we can call upon higher technical skills like the ability to render “classical” songs that involve murkis, taans, sargams etc.”

    I will add a little more to the last line i.e sargams etc. keeping in the complete attributes of the particular rag, as each of the different rags require change in voice techniques and deliverances going by musical terms. To achieve this gifted voice is a must.

    Yes, the above qualities are must for a voice which can be called “perfect” . I was just mentioning about ghantasala sahab, the telugu singer in the other thread in this regard in reply to some rafians claims about rafi sahab’s voice range.

    Technically going, rafi sahab was basically fine, and nothing more than that. I also do not see much weight on rafi sahab’s fans claims about rafi sahabs classical skills ?

  441. 441
    Surajit Bose Says:

    Khan Sahab,

    Thanks. Also read your post from the other thread.

    Yes, Man re is a great song by Rafi. It’s one of my favourite compositions and renditions.

    Very few people know that both the tune and verse of Man re
    was inspired by an old bandish in Yaman Kalyan which goes something like this:

    manA tu kAhe nA dheer dharat ab
    dheer dhare sab kA raj sudharat

    jAke sar RaghunAth virAjat
    wAke sab hi kA raj sAdhat
    Tulsidasa, RaghunAth krupA teN vighana sab Tarat

    Roshan distilled the essence from this bandish and creatively
    extended it for his alltime classic. A great example of what
    an original mind, well-educated in classical music, can achieve.

    I also love Rafi’s Kabhi Khud Pe from Hum Dono. Great rendition for Jaidev.

    However, since when the comparision of Rafi and Kishore comes up, most people, dare I say most Rafi fans, focus on the level of difficulty as a barometer to rate the abilities of the singers, let me dwell on that a little bit.

    The level of difficulty displayed is a perfectly valid canon by which to evaluate a singer (obviously, once we have made sure that there are no glaring mistakes on the Sur and Taal). But it is not the only one nor is it the most important, IMO of course. Some of us place a higher premium on originality (paradoxically, it is not easy, originality).

    That is why we reward Kishore – not because he was capable
    of great feats of swara-acrobatics (to be sure, he wasn’t, but neither was Rafi), or because had a sweeping range over all the octaves (he didn’t, and neither did Rafi), but because in the realm of musical expression, he was supremely original. And he was original while not sacrificing a whit on the technical front – be it sur, taal, range of voice, voice control and voice modulation etc.

    The superlative voice control he exhibits in songs like “Husn Bhi Hai udhAas”, “Jagmag jagmag karta nikla”, or even his so-called “silly songs” (title song of Jhumroo, for eg.), while giving exquisite expression, is nothing to be sneezed at.

    I always ask this question to music fans who always look at the level of difficulty to rate singers.

    Is there any intrinsic merit in making things difficult just for the
    heck of it?

    In music, Kishore Kumar could do the kind of magic beyond the
    pale of even the most formidable technicians. Songs like “Chingari Koi Bhadke”, “Kuch to log kahenge” are unreplicable (sic). Like many of his gems, these are ‘simple` tunes made immortal by sheer weight of expression, by a man who could be profound without trying hard.

    It was never the kind of delivery that beckoned, “I’m difficult and I beg of you to take notice.” And yet, they are not at all easy, even technically.

    Kishore’s ability to smoothly switch across registers and notes within a song is very rare. His singing is so smooth that all the artistry is overlooked. It’s only when we attempt to duplicate them that we realize the many, seemingly simple, ways he elevated the song.

    For all the alleged ‘simplicity` of Kishore’s songs, I haven’t yet come
    across a soul around who can re-create them. I am not talking about merely duplicating the tune swara for swara – even Suresh Wadkar can do that!

    In summary, both Rafi and Kishore were great singers (among others). I like Kishore more than Rafi because, all things being equal, I give greater weight to originality.

    There are things which Rafi can do, which Kishore cannot. And vice versa too. Their approach to music and singing is very different. It’s like comparing Sunil Gavaskar to Viv Richards.

  442. 442
    Anil Says:

    Surajit,
    Are you sure Rafi V Kishore is akin to Gavaskar V Richards? Going by your various posts on the two singers, it should be more like S.S.Das (remember the Indian opener who ‘appeared to be technically very good’?) V Richards.

  443. 443
    Surajit Bose Says:

    Anil @ 440,

    You are reading too literally into my analogy.

    What I meant to say was that Rafi’s approach to singing was akin to Gavaskar’s approach to batting: orthodox approach to batting, playing by the rules, adhering to the right technique, unrelenting dedication and focus etc.

    Kishore was more like Richards in that he cared a fig about rules and technique, and he created his own rules and shots. For eg., in those days, playing across the line was considered a strict no-no and was frowned upon by connoisseurs.

    Another inference from the analogy was that Rafi’s art was cultivated while Kishore was a natural.

    What is that about S.S.Das ? I only criticized Rafi on his classical renditions. I never said he was technically weak otherwise.

  444. 444
    Paramjeet Says:

    Arghyaji,
    Bahut hi achha likha hai apne. Bina kisi tulna kiye hue, guruji ke baare mein.
    Khan sahab aur Surjit sahab,

    Aap logon ke upar to baat karna bhi humare jaise logon ke liye tauheen hai, khaas kar ke tab jab humko shastriya sangeet ka charcha chhode aaj kareeb 10 saal ho gaye hai. Aap jaise logon ko padhne ke liye hi hum kabhi kabhar aa jaate hai yahan pem aur Kishorefan,Prabhanjanji, Satyanshji aur Arghyaji jaise sachche logon ki baat samajhne ke liye. Achche insaan hai aap sab log, uparwala aaplogon ko khush rakhe hamesha.

    Koi naya lekh nahi aa raha is forum mein Kishoreji ke upar yeh bahut dukh ki baat hai. Moderatorji se sadar nivedan hai is cheez ko zara dhyaan de. Humein aur achche lekh ki zaroorat hai yahan pe. Arghyaji, Satyanshji jaise log yahan pe pratinidhitva kam kar diye hai kuchh bahar ke logon ke murkhta ke wajah se, yeh bahut dukh ki baat hai. Unhe phir se bulaiye is forum ko sundar karne ke liye.

    Guruji ka ek gaana main bahut sun raha hoon kuchh dino se, aap logon se share karna chahta hoon yahan pe:

    ‘ Tere liye maine sabko chhoda, tu hi chhod ke chal di/ Janam maran ke saath ka wada kaise chhod ke chal di’.

    Ek gumnaam sangeetkar Shyamal Mitra ka banaya hua geet, Indeevarji ke likhe hue bol aur Kishoreji ka gaaya hua bhari, gehra aur low yeh gaana sahi mein ek alpa charchit madhur gaanon mein se hai.

  445. 445
    common_man Says:

    I love these posts. Always very amusing and get a good chuckle from me 😀

    “For all the alleged ’simplicity` of Kishore’s songs, I haven’t yet come across a soul around who can re-create them. I am not talking about merely duplicating the tune swara for swara – even Suresh Wadkar can do that!”

    ROFL I wish the Ghantasala fans would understand this simple concept 😀

    “I like Kishore more than Rafi because, all things being equal, I give greater weight to originality.”

    Wasn’t Kishore Kumar the one who started out by copying KL Saigal? 🙂 Mohammed Rafi had a different style than KL Saigal when he started out in the industry.

    Rafi’s voice & expression were quite original and I’ve never seen anyone completely emulate them 🙂

    Of course…I KNOW that’s not what you were referring to…you are talking about Kishore’s antics i.e. adding humming before a song, yodelling, or antics like in Padosan. I can respect that…but it is far from enough to compensate from Rafi’s approach to singing or his own intrinsic originality.

    And by the way..all things weren’t equal 😀

    “There are things which Rafi can do, which Kishore cannot. And vice versa too.”

    What Rafi could do but Kishore could not, was more valuable, than the vice versa. Rafi was so talented that for individual syllables he could put the right emotions & modulate his voice just right. This is a level of detail that Kishore’s “spontaneous” showed only occasionally.

    “It’s like comparing Sunil Gavaskar to Viv Richards.”

    Rafi was Rafi. Incomparable. We don’t need to use analogies for him to someone else. 🙂

    With all due respect to you, you’re just rationalizing. It’s all good. In the past I’ve seen you take Kishore’s failure to express emotion at a given time as a charming excuse for integrity hahaha! To each his own 😀

    You have fun listening to this “original” “Aakhe Seedhe Lagi Dil Pe”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BQhtqWAhrY

    whereas I’ll listen to to Rafi’s “Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara” where for individual syllables he puts profound emotions & modulations. It’s not “hard” for the sake of being hard. It’s supreme, unparalled expression 🙂

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM9n7omT1yE

  446. 446
    Lt Col Javed Sayyed Says:

    Dear All Music lovers,
    Its sad to note the infighting amongst you all. Why belittle an acknowledged singer for whatever selfish motives-whether love for ones own fav? Its highly deplorable to see people with suspect musical inclinations to comment on rafi sahabs talent, range, low notes singing, yodelling etc etc. Have you all become god or surpassed him too to write such comments? KK too had tremendous respect for rafi sahab. See their duets, their camarederie, etc. I had witnessed a KK concert starting with a 2 min silence for rafi in a stadium in pune-with the background instrumental of “Jahan daal daal par sone ki chidiya karti hai basera…” after rafis demise. And here are some overtly zealous people trying their hands at adversely commenting on the grtness of Rafi sahab.
    Pl refrain from such acts & bring out the goodness of the songs of the singers-geniuses in their own right & share them with all. Pl avoid adverse comments.

  447. 447
    Surajit Bose Says:

    @common_man 443,

    Glad that you found my post worth a chuckle. Must have brightened your day.

    Now, it would be even better if you can delve into some details to explain your points.

    Which are the things that are not equal ? Is it on the sur or taal or the taans or meends ? Is it the low pitch or high pitch ? Is it the voice modulation ? Is it the expression ? Is it the “originality” ?

    Yes, I enjoy the originality of “Aake seedhi lagi dil pe” more than the pedestrian “Salamat rahe dostana”. I enjoy the original “Cheel cheel chillake” and the original “Mere bhole balam”.

    It’s one thing if you like Rafi more than KK. It’s also perfectly acceptable if you think Rafi got the much more quality songs. But if you make a claim that Rafi is the “better” singer, you might do better to substantiate your claims if you explain *why* that is so.

    You can elaborate on the most important factors – sur, taal, modulation, expression, originality (or rather, Rafi’s intrinsic originality). KK has both intrinsic and extrinsic originality.

  448. 448
    Madhavi Says:

    Surajit,

    Just read your very informative posts. Don’t really visit this site regularly and certainly don’t have the musical expertise to enter the debate, but it was very useful for me to read the logic of your argument. It requires time and effort to make a rational reasoned argument which often feels wasted in the face of heated insistence or assertions of people that one should leave such topics aside. As you yourself said, it does not prove or disprove who is greater, but sometimes, even over this exhausting debate, there are posts that provide information, some wonderful insights into a singer and a shared pleasure about appreciating a singer and your post just did that.

  449. 449
    Madhavi Says:

    Arghya,

    A very interesting article, thank you.

  450. 450
    retrovert Says:

    I gainsaid your claims on equality of the two greats. For a layman who does not listen to music with a purpose of evaluating the ability of a singer, both Kishore and Rafi sound equal. And I am usually a layman in that sense. But as a student of hindustani classical music, I have enough cognition to analyze the two singers on the limited parameters you have outlined. Allow me to rationalize point by point –

    Let me start with the basic – the voice texture : Both Kishore and Rafi had a fine voice texture. No comparison. This parameter is nothing more than an individual preference. If you ask me my own predilection, it is Rafi’s voice.

    Sur-taal – It’s a crime to discuss sur-tal as a parameter when we are talking about two greats. Needless to say, both were extremely sureelas. They would not have survived the industry going by the noetic standards of the music directors of the golden era.

    Meend – Here, Rafi was a master. Observe the meends in the very light “Jungle mein mor nacha” to the semi classical “Main nigahen tere chehre se” to the classical “Ek shehanshah ne banvaake” – flawless, impeccable rendering of the meends. I am not aware of an equivalent level of meend exhibition on any of Kishore’s songs.

    Taan – You must observe the taan in “Madhuban mein radhika”. Taan is an understatement – he is rendering gamak with vakra swaras.Please enlighten me with a matching rendition of Kishore.

    Sthan, Murki, Khatka – Give special attention to the Sthan for the alaap Rafi sings “Ajhun aaye balma”. Listen to the murkiyan and khatka in the antaras. Flawless again. Is it raag pilu? In fact, Rafi was a master of murkis and khatkas – to give you a couple of examples, try to appreciate the murkis in “guzre hai aaj ishq mein” ,”taqdeer ka fasana” – you will be treated to some exemplary stuff.

    Now coming to the range – Do I really need to compare here? It is very obvious. Rafi could probably touch the Ma on the lower octave and maybe Dha,Ni on the higher octave. Everything between was a cakewalk for him. I’m sure you have listened to “O duniya ke rakhwale”. In one of the stage shows where he sang live ( I am mentioning “live” since many artists today lip-sync on stage), he took “O Duniya ke rakhwale” to a scale higher than the original. I must admit – I do not know Kishore touching a note more than the highest note in the antara of “Mere naina sawana bhado” in any other song. Please let me know if you know sone songs here.

    When we talk of expressions, it is better when we substantiate with the help of rasas/bhavas – Let me give you a couple of examples for each rasa (for it will take a few months to complete the list) – I will not try to explain these since the expressions are very well expressed by Rafi.

    Bhakti – This is already discussed in the main article here – A mention of “Man tarpat hari darshan” will suffice. Try this if you want bhakti rasa with viraha – “Duniya na bhaaye mohe”

    Karuna – “O door ke musafir”, “Bhari duniya mein aakhir”, “Toote hue khwabon ne” – These songs tug at the heart strings. Rendered with perfect expressions.

    Veer – “Kar chale hum fida” – The be all and end all of heroic patriotism. Not many Indians can hold back tears of patriotism while listening to this song.

    Vibhatsa – disgust – Check out this gem from Pyaasa – “Yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaye to kya hai”.

    Vichitra/adbhuta – “Tareef karu kya uski”, “Yeh dil tum bin kahin”

    Bhayanaka – “Subah na aayee Shaam na aayee” – The horror of pain and death.

    Hasya – “Sar jo tera chakaraye”, “Bade miyan deewane”. Take note that Rafi Sahab not only sang for heroes, but also to comedians like Johny Walker and Mehmood. And the ones for Shammi Kapoor- “Yahoo!”, “Suku Suku”.

    Virah – “Din dhal jaaye haaye”, “Hum tumse juda hoke”

    Vairagya – “Aaj purani rahon se”, “Na aadmi ka koi bharosa”,

    Krodh – “Guzre hai aaj ishq mein”, “Zindabad zindabad ae mohabbat”

    Shringar – Love/Lust – The list can be endless here. To name just a few – “Deewana hua badal”, “Jaan-e-bahaar husn tera”, “Baahosh-o-hawaas mein deewana”, “Aaja re aa zaraa”, “Ye aankhen uff yumma”, “Abhi na jao chhodkar”. There are innumerable ghazals based on Shringar – I’ll keep t for another day due to lack of time.

    Shanta – Tranquility – “Tumse kahu ek baat paro si”, “Tere mere sapne”

    Vatsalya – “Main gaun tum so jao”, “Aaj kal mein dhal gaya”, “Babul ki duayen”

    When I look for suitably expressed rasas from Kishore, honestly, the ones which came to my mind dont really match upto the list above.

    Originality – Rafi had his own voice, own style, own nuances – everything about his singing was original. His voice and style till today remains unique. Kishore was an original too. I really dont understand what do you mean when you talk about extrensic originality. Kishore, by person was an eccentric genius, a maverick of sorts and it showed in his acting, singing and direction. So, how does it make him more original?

    After trying to explain the intricacies of music to people, I have concluded that Kishore is liked more by the masses (probably because he was the voice of the two greatest superstars – Rajesh Khanna and Amitabh Bacchan). Rafi is the choice of the classes. From purely singing point of view, to me, Rafi is the greatest. Let’s leave it at that.

  451. 451
    Rafifan Says:

    Retrovert

    Great post and great points. Rafi is unmatchable. kishore kumar’s songs are relatively easier to sing than most of rafi’s songs which are more tougher . That is enough to conclude on rafi’s greatness.

    I will be happy to listen to a song of rafi touching ma in the lower octave as you mentioned, could you kindly share one song of rafi where he touches ma. Because, I have heard one kishore kumar song where he touches the lower ma note in the lower octave. But I agree with you that rafi had rendered more high pitch notes than kishore, might be due to his classical strength over kishore. Needless to say rafi’s modulation skills are more superior to kishore, who generally has plain style of singing in most of his songs. I think kishore could touch the pa note in the higher octave, and I feel he had done that in ek chatur naar song with manna dey.

    I was told that rafi had touched dha note in o duniya ke rakhwale , in the higher octave, excepting zindabad zindabad song where I think he had gone to a even higher note, but I have heard from musicians that these songs just cover two octaves and accordingly land in limited notes as compared to a three octave rendition where in even higher notes are covered. One such example frequently discussed here was siva sankari of ghantasala and even a sanskrit rendition syamala dandakam by name, where in ghantasala easily sustains top sa in the higher octave and the compositions in three octave is considered as a superior one to establish the coverager of notes in a wider voice range. Needless to say the said songs are very tough songs even to attempt. However, coming to rafi and kishore, the former’s versatality which you have highlighted deserves appreciation and i am in agreement with your post.

  452. 452
    Surajit Bose Says:

    Retrovert @448,

    Thanks for a good post without any flames.

    Ok, now for my rejoinder.

    Meends – Kishore was no less a master at meends and harkats when so inclined. Just listen to some of his early songs when he was singing in the Talat and Saigal style. There are harkats galore in songs like “Aa mohabbat ki basti”, “Husn bhi hai udhaas”, or even “Dukhi man mere”. There are some great meends in later songs like “Main Shaayar badnaam”, “Diye jalte hain”, songs from “Amar Prem”, “Kinara” (“O majhi re”) etc.

    Taans – I’m sorry, Rafi WAS NOT a master of taans by any yardstick. The taans in “Madhuban mein radhika” (picturized on Mukhri) were not sung by Rafi. Gamakas are, strictly speaking, different from taans. Gamakas are similar to microtones and are usually a set of notes clustered around the primary frequency, though there are exceptions. They make up parts of taans, like a subset. Taans can comprise double, triple, or even quadruple note clusters of varying frequency. Sapaat taans, for eg., comprise note clusters with near vertical increase in frequency. There was a very good alaap that Rafi pulled off in that song, though, I think in the line of “Dholak cham cham”. But we don’t know if Kishore would or would not have been able to pull it off. My listening to Kishore’s renditions of Rabindra Sangeet, and a host of non-film songs suggest that he could’ve pulled it off. Though I am not so sure. Regarding gamakams, what about Kishore’s yodelling ? That’s a perfect cannon for gamakams as it includes vocal rolling and sliding of the notes. And Kishore can do it while going up or down in the frequency scale. It’s a different matter that it’s done without swaras.

    I don’t want to generalize you into a category, but it’s just that classical vocalists are prejudiced against anything that involves the falsetto register. But I, despite learning Hindustani classical, have no such issues. Classical music is mostly about voice control, and achieving that level of control that Kishore does in the falsetto is no simple feat. Add to that his ability to quickly slide into and out of the falsetto register with such awesome precision. These are all signs of a very gifted musician with commendable voice control.

    The few times Rafi tried to render competent taans, he came out distinctly uncomfortable. For eg., listen to the following duets: “Kuhu kuhu bole koyaliya” and “Jhanan jhan”. Where as Lata was like a sliver of lightning in tracking all the taans and alaaps, Rafi was very laboured. Here is a link to the second song:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQNcsfFw7_E

    Here is another song that brings out his discomfort.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoQJIy8o9Qc&feature=related

    Kishore never ventured into this category, and wisely so.

    I’m sorry to say but Rafi’s renderings of strictly classical pieces were not convincing by any means.

    Further it’s a common myth (and your post seems to suggest that you have unwittingly gone the same path) to associate demanding calibre of songs with the number of swaras (as in actual use of the swaras) or notes it contains, and thereby conclude that it needs more skills and hence a singers superiority is proven. Complexity of a song should never be judged based on it’s fun content. When you accept this view, it becomes evident that Kishore’s comedy songs (and there are innumerable) are no less “complex” than the songs sung by Rafi.

    Range – I can accept that Rafi had a wider range if you count the sheer number of notes. However, you have to admit that Rafi’s lower octave range was very limited. In fact there are hardly any songs that he sang in the E1 scale. Kishore’s voice had no such limitations. Listen to Rafi’s “Yahan badla wafa ka” and you will see how he struggles to sing in the lower octave.

    It’s in the middle and upper octaves that his real talents emerge. Obviously, in the upper octave, he was king.

    Regarding the live version of “O duniya ke rakhwale”, he does go higher based on the notes, but scalewise he starts off lower by a whole step and so, on an absolute scale, he does NOT go higher than the original version. Further, the live version is no patch on the original version (esp. the “Around the world” version was a pale comparision) and he really struggles when he starts off with “Oooo … duniya”.

    Regarding expressions, I do not have too much to say because we are touching subjective issues here. For me, most of Rafi’s sad and philosophical songs rarely have any effect. And I think that is because he “works” on it, he “tries very hard” to put those effects. So, in effect, it doesn’t sound like coming from the heart. There are some songs that I do enjoy though – songs from “Guide”, “Seema” come to mind. When Kishore sings “Zindagi ka safar” or “Woh shaam kuch ajeeb thi”, it comes straight from the heart. He doesn’t do anything to “try” and bring the effect. His intonation seals the deal. It’s like when you are sad, your voice has a certain intonation that immediately tells the other person that you are sad. You don’t “try” to sound sad.

    Kishore, to me, is extrinsically original, while both are intrinsically original. When I say intrinsic, I mean that the pauses, the inflections in the voice, the whispers etc. that they put in the song to do justice to the lyrics.

    By extrinsic, I mean the ability to create a song that was not even thought of by the composer. For example, the song “Aake seedhi lagi dil pe” was supposed to be a duet by Kishore and Lata. But due to some personal reasons, Lata was absent for the recording and then Kishore suggested, on the spot, that he will sing both versions. That is what I mean by extrinsic originality. His ability to include yodelling in songs also suggests that. It does not matter if his personality was a maverick or not.

    Coming to masses and classes, you are not entirely correct. Classical maestros like Bhimsen Joshi, Rahat Fateh Ali Khan, Kumar Gandharva etc. regard Kishore very highly. In fact, Rafi was originally my favourite singer much before I learnt classical music. It was after learning classical music that I became aware of his limitations and was not entirely impressed by his classical songs, and was simultaneously enthralled by Kishore’s unique approach to singing and his capabilities as a singer and musician. I love Rafi’s film songs, but not his classical renderings.

    In fact, except for Lata Mangeshkar and Asha Bhosle during their peak, I rarely listen to Hindi Film Music for classical songs.

  453. 453
    Srini Says:

    It is a nice discussion, but I feel that it is going off topic a bit.
    There are a lot of classical singers who are technically right,
    however, the effect is missing. The feeling in the song the
    weight of ones voice, thats what movie songs are all about.
    Yes you need loads of natural gifted voice (ala kishore/spb/rafi)
    or classical training with good voice (like ghantasala).

    By the way Rafi is not “formally” trained in any form of classical music.
    Rafi and SPB learnt classical music after they became filmi singers.
    So I would say it is unfair to compare them in pure classical renditions
    with the likes of Ghantasala.

    Regarding Kishore, the moment you start listening to a song,
    it just hits a chord, there is something magical in his voice and the
    way he sings that just attracts you, could it be the way he intentionally
    breaks his voice without losing the melody to create emotion in his sad
    songs like “Dil aaj shayar hai”, “Mere mehboob qayamat higi”, “Meri
    bheegi bheegi si” or “Dil aisa kisine mera toda”. It is that spl ingredient
    that separates him from the rest.

    Technically he is not the best but when he sings its just magical.
    Same goes with SPB, yes ghantasala is order of magnitude better
    technically but SPB’s voice among the mentioned singers is second
    only to Kishore!!! Any good music director (be it SD or AR Rahman)
    will pick the best suited voice for a particular song. Them picking Kishore
    over Mukesh, Manna Dey who are classically trained or Md Rafi
    who I will agree has a sweeter voice (and more versatile) has to say something about the singer Kishore was and the effect his voice
    could convey :).. (To me its simply magical just cant put in words)

    Someone commented that ARR does not pick SPB for most of his songs
    which is right but listen to the songs he picked SPB to sing (sorry
    dont have hindi examples but in telugu off the top of my head its
    “Prema Prema” in Prema Desam compare it to the rest of the
    light hearted/headed songs).

    You just can not compare two individuals, they are different and
    every one has strengths and weaknesses. Ghantasala might sing
    “Hayi Hayiga” technically exceedingly well but I would have to agree
    that his voice is not as sweet as Rafi’s 🙂 so its okay if people prefer
    Rafi’s version. I grew up listening to all three singers but never
    compared one to another just have a set of my favourite songs
    of each singer and listen to them, sometimes in random order,
    thanks to the technology to have made that possible.

    Srini

  454. 454
    Rafifan Says:

    Hi srini

    Rafi was not formally trained – He was trained no less in the gharana of ustad bade gulam ali khan, I think your post is without sufficient knowledge of the background of the singers mentioned therein. Well, agreed that rafi was not that trained or perfect as compared to ghantasala. Next, kuhu kuhu, ghantasala’s voice appears more sweeter than rafi in the last para – “kanugava taniyaga” which is saj singar by rafi – just listen carefully in a good head phone. Not only sweeter, as you said ghantasala glides easily in the notes and entire song – so in this song, even as rafi fan, due credit I give to ghantasala – the rendition is such, even lata in hindi falls short before this man in the rendition.

    Rafi’s range is different – just hear yeh mera prem patra, or jo wada kiya woh, chaudvin ka chaand, yeh chaand sa roshan chehra etc. etc. – rafi is unmatchable in these type of songs, of course which rafi have rendered in hundreds.

  455. 455
    Bhushan Says:

    Hi srini

    I do not agree rafi’s voice was sweeter than ghantasala whose voice used to change depending upon the raga he rendered. He sounded sweet to the extent specified by music rules – rafi’s voice naturally came in a sweet way – he was not that adept in change in voice technique as was ghantasala. Just go to some melodious and sweet ragas such as sankarabharanam, bilahari, kalyani etc. – compare both rafi and ghantasala songs in these ragas – ghantasala’s voice is more sweeter than rafi in these ragas, because these ragas specify a higher degree of sweetness by their quality and ghantasala displayed that. Ragas which do not require sweetness, ghantasala cannot display that, by virtue of his musical skills. Rafi used the same sweetness for all his songs in all ragaas – though they require sweetness or not (which people liked) and thus in my opinion, rafi does not satisfy the pure music rules to the level which ghantasala satisfied. Excepting ghantasala, there is no playback singer in india who was an accomplished playback singer, accomplished music director and accomplished classical musician with a majestic divine voice and achieving dominating success in all fields simultaneously without any competition as long as he was alive. Similarly there is no classical musician (on the range of ghantasala) in india who was equally accomplished as a playback singer in films without any competition for 3 decades, excepting ghantasala. There closes the issue for any further arguments in this regard.

  456. 456
    KRISHNA PAL SINGH Says:

    very very rare and unique information my sincere thanks……………..but there was one more devotional song sung by kishore daa…..i had heard at AAKASHWANI…..AND SEEN ON DOORDARSHAN also way back in early eighties and the message of the song is very very useful in today’s scenario specially AYODHYA issue, the song was..BADHTEN HEIN JAB JAB PAAP DHARTI PAR PAAP DHARTI PAR……………I don’t know the film’s name….the one antra…..MERE NAAM KI LEKE DUHAI JO LOGON KO LADATE HEIN..WO HEIN BANDE DHARAM KE ANDHE WO NA KABHI SUKH PAATE HEIN…..OR…
    KABHI QURAAN KABHI BIBLE AUR KABHI MEIN GEETA HOON….
    WILL SOMEBODY HELP ME TO HAVE THIS SONG?
    Reagrds

  457. 457
    TONY SINGH Says:

    THIS IS KISHORE’S BEST DIVOTIONAL SONG ,OK”Apnonko Kab Hai Shyam – Rajesh Khanna, Mere Jeevan Saathi -1972

  458. 458
    Samir Ahmed Says:

    KK had a street singer’s voice and that’s an undeniable fact! Personally speaking, he always sounded like a drunk, impotent, out of tune singer to me. Indeed, there’s nothing special about his voice, in fact he spoiled so many songs it’s simply unbelievable. If only his fans would accept his limitations as he did… He knew Rafi was the best, why else would he be replaced in so many songs!!! Nafrat Ki Duniya being a prime example, but there are many others such as Zindagi Guzaar Ne Ko… If he had a great voice he wouldn’t need to be replaced but he couldn’t sing those songs just like he was unable to sing many he was given, but I don’t blame him, we all have to eat! I cannot fathom why an earth he would even try to sing Nafrat Ki Duniya Mein with his ineffectual and restricted vocal skills? I suppose we never know our limitations as human beings until we put every ounce of our effort into an endeavour… Coversely speaking, can anyone name even one song where Rafi had to be replaced as the song was beyond his vocal skills! A point to note would be how many legendary MDs would have KK as their no. 1 singer; apart from the Bengali clan (we all know how partial they can be) I doubt any serious musician would even consider KK to be in their top 10! You think of great musicians like Naushad, Shankar-Jaikishan, Roshan, Ghulam Mohammed, Ravi, O P Nayyar, Husnlal-Bhagatram, Madan Mohan, S D Burman, Laxmikant-Pyarelal amongst other stalwarts and one intrinsically knows which camp they would have their foot in and it’s definitely not the KK one. In fact most wouldn’t even class KK as a singer, which is demonstrated in their extremely limited use of KK during the 1950s and 1960s period when KK was around, but not utilised due to his many limitations and the challenging compositions MDs were formulating. I prefer to follow their lead in this as they saw first-hand the talent and limitations of each artiste in their studio and KK was assuredly limited in this regard or else he would have had many more songs in his repertoire during this phase. Indeed, HFM needed a dumbing down for KK to make an impact otherwise this man would’ve gone down as only a good comedian/actor in the annals of Hindi Films. With Araadhana KK (as well as the Bengali clan) got the dumbing down he craved but only for a year or two, as music lovers soon realised their universe had been seriously compromised…

  459. 459
    gokuldas kumar.m Says:

    Dear Surajit Bose ji,
    With due respects given to your formal knowledge in classical music, I have to say this in regard to what you wrote about Rafi and how assessed him:
    “It remains a sad truth that although we remain as one nation, many of us still cannot rise above the parochial/ regional/linguistic bias, even while judging artists! Somewhere deep inside his soul, he detests acknowledging an outside artist at the expense of his own!! alas, even learned musician are not above this!! ”
    Let us forget whether we are a Malayalee, or Bengalee, or Tamilian or Telugu or a north Indian, when it comes to evaluating music.

  460. 460
    pankaj lal Says:

    there are a certain degree of fineness and sweetness and utaar chadaav and stability in the voice out of all this measurements i would like to rate ghantasala ji as number 1, mohd rafi sahab as number 2 and kishore kumar ji as number 3. even mahendra kapoor ji as number 3 and rest all great singers only old ones come in number 3 and now a days singers come in number 10 position especially sonu nigam .

  461. 461
    Gajendra Singh Says:

    This is not a place to compare Kishore & Md Rafi. Nobody can deny about greatness of Md Rafi but we all should accept that both of them had good time when they were at their best time. Why Kishore didn’t get many songs during 50s & 60s and why Rafi got very less songs in 70s. If you want to compare Kishore and Md Rafi then you should listen their songs sung by them together or a song of ‘Pyaar Ka Mausam’ TUM BIN JAAUN KAHAAN KE DUNIYA MEIN AAKE’ and decide yourself. Our Music Directors were much more knowledgeable than all these individuals who have put their comments here. This is a reply to all those who want to use this place for comparing Md Rafi & Kishore. When Imraan Khan (Cricketer) was announced his retirement from Test Cricket The Kishore’s song ‘CHALTE CHALTE MERE YE GEET YAAD RAKHANA KABHI ALVIODA NA KAHANA’ was being played in the stadium. Why? Even Pakistan do not evaluate Kishore less but Indian Mislims……….

  462. 462
    Vijay S Says:

    hi, thanks for this article and the list of Kishore Da’s devotional songs. Some of these songs i had not heard earlier..i think because in last para u compared his devotional songs with Man tarpat and Sukh kay sab saathi, the discussion turned into Rafi vs Kishore whereas your objective was only to facilitate the list and Kishore Da’s contribution in devotional category. Probably u wanted to highlight his versatility which u have done..i think in 50s and 60s when Bhajans were composed more and they became popular, Kishore Da was singing limited only for himself and Dev Sahab. later Few music composers showed confidence in him ( some say only 1 Music director, RD Burman), so its..one Music Composer showed confidence in him and he started frustrating fans of other singers… I think this elaborates his strength as singer..i m not getting into who is greater or who is the greatest singer.. before Aradhana it was Rafi sahab’s time that didn’t mean that Kishore Da was sitting idle and his song were not popular… he had his place as singer and he had a fan following..his songs of those days were popular and popular even today.. so in 70s Rafi sahab was singing some songs … Kishore Da was doing so many things and i wonder how he managed his time those days…Music Directors like OP expected singers to be disciplined and reach on time, once OP nayyar sahab got upset with Rafi sahab coz Rafi sahab reached late by 10 minutes for a recording and OPN didn’t use him for next 2 years, how OPN would had tolerated Kishore Da who was busy doing acting, producing movies…can not we conclude that favorite singers for Music Director were not only because of their singing talent but also because of certain other things…Rafi sahab was dedicated to his singing career and he did his best to do justice right from meeting music directors on time to recording whereas Kishore da wanted to become singer but was managing so many of his careers lines in one time…goes w/o saying.. Kishore Da’s contribution in numbers of devotional songs could be less or less popular but his talent and skills as playback singers were not less..thanks for the list once again…

  463. 463
    mahesh Says:

    beste,

    is er een lijst met het aantal liederen die Kishore Kumar heeft gezongen.
    zou deze graag willen. ben bezig om al zijn liederen te digitaliseren.

    Alvast bedank.
    Mahesh

  464. 464
    vijay Says:

    md rafi is a ordinery singar but kishore is great singar

  465. 465
    Sanjay Says:

    you said
    Mere Jeevan Sathi(1972) is mainly rememberd for the romantic songs of Kishore for Rajesh Khanna, but the song “Aao kanhai mere dham” is very special for those who love Bhajans.. The true passion and anxiety of a bhakt for not getting the darshan of Lord Krishna, is reflected in the anxious voice of Kishore “dekho ho gayi shaam”… Composed by Rahul Dev Burman- a truly sublime bhajan for Kishore..

    This song is actually rendered, which means that it is recorded at a much slower speed, and then sped artificially to make the pitch higher. This may be because RD wanted to spew out high pitched Kishore Kumar songs to match Rafi. RD Burman HAS done this to quite a few Kishore Kumar Songs. Try adding about 10 seconds to this song using a utility like ‘MP3 speed’ and you will find Kishore Kumar’s High timber voice come forth.

  466. 466
    Mankeerat Says:

    Great Post
    small objection two of the bhajans were made a higher pitch post recording
    by playing fast and rerecording
    1) ram ka naam badnaam
    2) aao kanhai mere dham

    I can send you the true versions or you can dl from my blog

  467. 467
    SANJAY PATEL Says:

    KISHORE KUMAR IS THE BEST.

  468. 468
    Gamnya Bagra Says:

    Both are the King of different kingdom have equal ability and strength. They are God of Music. They are still alive. High octave or low octave is not important, the magic of sound should make an impression on mind, heart and soul which remains for ever and ever. No one on earth can has the knowledge to justify their singing.

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