Home » Kishore diary » An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..

An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..

Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980. […]

Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.

Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.


The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.

It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.

Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.

In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.


On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70′s and 80′s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.

This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.

There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.

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2,272 Responses to “An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..”

  1. 1
    unknow Says:

    Dear Sir offourse there is no end but there is something clear like sun who is best singer ever born in bollywood,I can say what I want but important thing is the true is true,Rajesh Khanna said once that the song which singed by Anwar for him if there was MohdRafi he can’t sing it the way singed by Anwar!!!do u think so?we should not compare mohd Rafi with any singer said by many great people who know about music.if u have singer like Mohd Rafi u don’t need anyother singer to sing any tape of song to be sing by other singer boz mohd rafi can sing any tape of song so easy way but other singers they can’t,exp Shammi Kapoor used around 95% Mohd Rafi but if we go to Rajesh Khanna or mr Bachchan it not like that,if I like Sanu it not mean that he is the best singer,why we say that KK was not trained!!!!after singing thousands of songs and working with all MD he is not trained!!!!!!!???if he is not trained it mean that he is not a singer as i think but kk was great singer,why compare him as singer with mohd rafi?
    There is end of topic who is better as we know in our heart……

  2. 2
    Messi Says:

    Good article, but the one again will encourage many to start the so called debate.
    I don’t understand why each and every time they ignite people to start the comparison.

    Rafi is I think one of the greatest singers on the face of the Earth and so is Kishore Kumar
    Rafi mainly because of his sheer skills and Kishore Kumar mainly because of his Purity of
    voice. I don’t mean to say Rafi’s voice is not pure, neither do I say Kishore doesn’t have
    skills. But yes, one will overshadow the other on those points.

    I love both of them. One thing I don’t understand. What’s Rafi school. Ok, I think Rafi’s
    distinct syle and calibre made it a school. Sonu Nigam can be categorized under Rafi’s
    School. How come Udit ? There’s no similarity between his voice and style with Rafi’s.
    However Sonu has some similarity. But as a singer, Udit is far better than Sonu,
    is that the reason some people say he is also from Udit just to prove Rafi’s greatness ?

    I don’t understand this fact. Anybody can explain ? don’t start a debate. Just give me
    reasons that why Udit falls under Rafi school. Don’t just say that he himself has said
    that that’s why. That’s not a reason to believe.

    Thanks for the wonderful article. BTW, what about the author ? a Rafian or a Kishoreian ?

  3. 3
    Paresh Pai Says:

    IMHO, both Rafisahab and Kishoreda were two sides of the same coin. Both were equally important for the coin to exist, so why compare them ?

  4. 4
    Debjyoti Says:

    No doubt that Kishoreda is the greatest.

  5. 5
    Fanta Says:

    wot nonsense. Rafi was much better than K.K. Udit nor Sonu can come to Rafi’s gharana of singing. Not even close.

  6. 6
    Narayan Says:

    ALL MUSIC LOVERS,
    yes let us not compare these 2 great legends and enjoy the lovely evergreen hits given by them.
    Both had the best of relationship so why the fans should grudge anything against the legends.
    Rafi Sahabs photo along with Saigal sahabs potrait is displayed in the portico of Kishore da s house. Also Rafi Sahab in Kishore da’s last film charged a friendly 1 rupee.
    In the 70s when Rafi sahab was less used an ignorant person asked Kishore da ” Aapne Rafi ki chutti kar di”. The fool got a resounding slap from the legend promptly.
    I strongly feel all should enjoy the greatness of the legends without comparing and simply enjoy MUSIC which the TWO together dominated in the playback singing field.
    Narayanan

  7. 7
    Ramesh Says:

    Both Rafi saab and Kishoreda were great. They had mutal admiration for
    each other.
    As for settling for the best lets just say Mukeshji, as he was
    totally inimitable. That way Rafi or Kishore fans will not feel bad.

  8. 8
    humble Says:

    @ Messi

    When Udit says that he is from Rafi’s school, then why do you force him to pull out….strange!

  9. 9
    Debjyoti Says:

    Kishore Kumar is the most versatile of all singers.He is much ahead than Rafi.

  10. 10
    Debjyoti Says:

    Without any formal training,he reached unusual heights in playback singing.That’s what a genius is.

  11. 11
    Messi Says:

    So true Narayan & Paresh Pai, I liked it what you guys said.
    Sorry if I did anything wrong. Thanks for everything.

  12. 12
    Manish Kumar Says:

    If you like someone’s intrinsic voice – whatever he sings – you will naturally like it. This liking is personal and thus varies from person to person e.g. a Kishore fan will like Kishore’s voice and a Rafi fan will like Rafi’s voice. Voice is probably the most important factor which means that preference for a singer is subjective, personal, and ill suited to compare with another’s tastes. What you can do…is compare within yourself but that is about how far you can go.

    I really don’t like it when someone tries with good intentions to balance the debate by saying, “Kishore had the natural voice while Rafi was better trained.” I think Rafi had both! Yes, I liked Kishore’s version of Tum Bin Jaon Kahan better simply because of the yodelling. However, if you compare voice alone – I felt Rafi’s was more crisp and clearer and fuller.

    At the same time – I *try to refrain from generalzing Kishore’s voice. I think in the 50s and 60s his voice was more crisp and clear (listen to Mana Janab Ne Pukara Nahi 1957 or Mere Samne Waali Kirdhki 1968) than his voice in the 70s. My guess is that he was so popular in the 70s and so busy as a result that sometimes he just throated the song or quickly rendered it to keep up with assigments whereas in the 50s he had fewer songs and so he was able to dedicate himself more to each one.

    Another reason for Kishore not always delivering his best is because he emphasized playback singing as a business among exploitive people in the movie industry (how right he was!). In one incident, he was singing and Bappi Lahri told him to add some emotion to the song. Kishore said, “Give me 300 more rupees and I’ll put emotion into the song.” Do you think Kishore put his best effort into that song? I don’t blame him from a personal viewpoint (he should make the most he can) but as a singer he compromised his art (his song was still good thanks to his intrinsic voice but clearly he didn’t put in his best). I’m not saying that Kishore didn’t work hard or that he just throated every song – but I think you understand my thoughts. I cannot excuse Kishore as an artist for this!

    In sharp contrast, Rafi was always very dedicated to his singing and even on the day of his death as he recorded his last song – he didn’t fail to impress! This description is well documented. Additionally (again only my opinion) I can’t think of a single Rafi song where he doesn’t seem to sing from the heart and where the song isn’t gushing with emotion and

    My opinion is that Rafi had by far the best voice among the male singers – it wasn’t too deep or too low or too…it was just perfect. This is why Rafi’s voice could suit just about any actor and his record as a primary choice for over a dozen actors from the romantic Dharmendra to the quirky Mehmood to Johnny Walker to the rebel Shammi Kapoor – Rafi’s voice was a voice for all occasions. He also had that magic in the voice that is a rare gift (Kishore had it too).

    For my money – Rafi’s super voice quality was always consistent – from the 40s all the way until he breathed his last! Kishore’s voice was smooth and crisp in the 50s and 60s, somewhat coarse but deep and strong (great tone) in the 70s and 80s. Neverthleless, for me, Rafi’s voice was much better. It was sweeter, it was much more crisp and clear than any version of Kishore’s voice. That’s just me. Mohammed Rafi had the best voice.

    It is a fact that Rafi yodelled before Kishore! Kishore fans who unknowingly say that Kishore was the best yodeller have not heard Rafi yodel but indeed – Rafi’s vocals had no limits. He yodelled in a song from 40s or early 50s and IMO it was just as good as Kishore’s! Rafi rarely yodelled because he was trained singer and among trained singer this artistic trait (I think it is art) is looked down upon. This fact that I dare to say few KK fans knew of or believe – shows what great vocals Rafi had that he could be on the same ground of yodelling as the great Kishore Kumar!

    It is fact that Rafi had the wider vocal range and combining this with his superior training in classical music meant that Rafi could sing just about any song. While Kishore was very versatile – there are some songs that are SIMPLY out of his vocal range IMO. A song like “Ae Mohabat Zindabad” from Naushad’s Mughal E Azam requires a very, very high vocal range that no one but Rafi himself could match! When Shankar Jaikishan started out – they went to Rafi and asked him to sing as he pleased because he was the only one who could sing their composition (humble Rafi told them to tell him how they wanted it).

    It is fact that till 1969 Rafi sang 10X more songs than Kishore (and they were quality) and that MDs used Rafi more than Kishore from 1977-1980. That tells you something! Of the ~40 years together, Kishore had the better of Rafi for only 6 years. The “decline” of Rafi was inevitable because when you dominate for 20 years, the people need a brief change of something different and Kishore provided with that. I listen primarily to Rafi but every now and then I take a break for a fresh new style of voice and that voice is typically Kishore or Udit.

    Also know that if Kishore really had the natural voice (over Rafi’s) then…when Kishore started out as a singer he really struggled and people told him that he was no good or that his voice just didn’t have it. Mohammed Rafi’s voice was NEVER criticized like that at ANY point in his career – it testifies that Rafi Sahab’s intrinsic voice was tough to question. Kishore did receive an aura.

    Someone said that Rafi could not sing a song like “Arre Deewano Mujhe Pehchano” from Don. Are you kidding? A skilled singer of his voice control could sing that song in his sleep. Additionally, some could say that Kishore had a brilliant personality and that he could do funny songs that maybe Rafi could not. Again, I disagree because Rafi was a great singer who dedicated himself and had MAGIC and emotion and NUANCE in his voice. Rafi did a great job of capturing Kishore’s brilliant personality and nuances in the songs for which he did playback for Kishore. Rafi had personality too and could do just about any song – funny, yodel etc.

    Rafi had the best voice, he had the magic, and he had the training and range. I can’t think of another singer that has ALL of these four traits. These comparisons are only within me…you guys could think it is rubbish!

    Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara – I thought Rafi’s voice had much more emotion here whereas Kishore maintained a stronger tone

    Zindagi Ek Safar – Rafi maintained a stronger tone and his voice was fuller and smoother.

    Hum Premi Prem Karna Chahe – Both maintained equal tone but for me, Rafi had more emotion in his voice.

    Tum Bin Jaaon Kahan – Rafi had a more crisp, clear voice. Kishore wins because artistically his yodelling had the edge but Rafi could have yodelled too if he wanted!

    After having written all this, I still say that my opinion against SOMEONE ElSE can potentially be an apple versus an orange. These opinions are against MY values and likes which aren’t universal hahaha. I’m also glad that we have BOTH to listen to!

  13. 13
    P. Haldar Says:

    I’d like to commend Manish Kumar for a very insightful analysis; I share most of his views.

    In the history of playback singing, there was no phenomenon like Rafi and there will never be one. The only singer to challenge Rafi was Kishore and we need to recognize that. Lata, Asha, Manna or Mukesh could never overshadow Rafi; Rafi simply towered above all of them. That it is why it is important to understand the reasons why Kishore could dethrone Rafi. Of course, there was always that issue of patronage from the Burmans, especially the younger one. Suffice it to say that without RD’s music, it would have been impossible for Kishore to displace Rafi. What RD created in the 1970-75 period was sheer magic and Kishore responded magnificently. They were made for one another. Though Rafi’s voice could easily cover the gamut of song types, there was (just) one dimension in which Kishore’s voice was superior. The genius in SD recognized that much earlier than anyone else; that is why he could exploit the two voices so well. But the son never realized that, although Rafi launched him into big league with Teesri Manzil. He let Kishore sing almost every song of his, including classical, folk, ghazal, etc. It is a stroke of irony that when Rafi got half a chance in HKKN, he came back with a bang. The difference between SD and RD ultimately is how they used Rafi. SD and Rafi defined what playback singing is all about in Pyasa (Yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaye to kya hai) and it was they who could scale those lofty heights again in Kagaz ke Phool (Dekhi zamane ki yari). Listen to Rafi’s Din dhal jaye from Guide and it’d be difficult to discern that someone else is singing for Dev.

    Kishore was a spontaneous talent. Yes, Rafi could sing every song that Kishore sang but, in my humble opinion, Kishore would be slightly ahead in songs like Yeh dil na hota bechara, Zindagi ek safar hai suhana, Yeh kya hua, Yeh jo mohabbat hai, etc. That is the dimension I alluded to earlier. Rafi fans — and I am one — need to concede that and stop this needless debate that has been going on for the last 37 years.

    Rafi and Kishore fans should remember the mutual admiration and respect that these two playback giants shared. In 1983, three years after Rafi had died, Kishore came to sing at a concert in Kolkata. His first song was a Rabindra sangeet; his second was Rafi’s Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare from Chitralekha! Kishore was a self-avowed fan of Rafi’s (he once said, “I am his greatest fan”) and I am sure that Rafi, who hardly ever spoke, had the highest regard for the phenomenon that was Kishore.

  14. 14
    Messi Says:

    Hi Humble,

    First, When did Udit say that ? provide me the exact quote. Otherwise it’s tough to believe
    the media now a days.

    Second, He might have said that because Rafi is his favorite singer or he liked Rafi’s
    voice and style. But Udit’s voice and style don’t match with Rafi’s a bit. If you say Sonu
    is from Rafi’s school I can believe that even when Sonu deny it officially. But it’s tough
    to believe Udit case even he accepts that officially. Understand ?

  15. 15
    Bapan Says:

    Kumar Sanu,Abhijeet,Babul Supriyo,Vinod Rathode,Shaan,KK,Kunal all belong to the Kishore Kumar school of singing.Kishoreda is simply the best.He is God.

  16. 16
    unknow Says:

    when the people who know about music they speak about KK they say he was good singer but when they speak about mohd Rafi they said there never be other Mohd Rafi as a singer and human,Mohd rafi singed for KK for free but mr bachchan don’t i hope u know that kk fans,why u people useing kk name with RD as i think LP with kk was more better,when RD got his first film he went to Mohd Rafi to sing for him and said by RD that Mohd Rafi helped him makeing his first songs and he canelled with other MD and he singed for me after he singed I was thining that Is i made this song or it is the magic of Mohd Rafi voice.when Lata ji speak about Mohd Rafi she said he can sing an topic of song so easy but when she speak about KK she say about kk jokes,
    If we go for good music will see the good music star in 1950′s and end in 1980′s,the best music was in 1960′s,WHY?!!!!!as i think because of Mohd rafi…….why we compare?!!!!!!!!!!!???kk fans don’t have much to say but mohd rafi fans have much.

  17. 17
    Messi Says:

    Bapan,
    please stop now. Don’t just repeat the samething I have trying to stop.

    I agree with Haldar and Paresh Pai. Kishore was the one who could give a challenge
    to Rafi, that’s the reason some people don’t like him. I respect both of them and will
    always. So no stop using the bad words, mohdrafi.come website is full of all the words
    and posts.

    No more now, just enjoy.
    Thank you

  18. 18
    unknow Says:

    Dear messi,
    Lata ji is the best female singer she can’t challenge Mohd Rafi,Mannay Dey a great singer he said no way to challenge Mohd rafi,Talat ji knig of sad songs he can’t challenge mohd Rafi but I agree with that KK can challenge Mohd Rafi as actor but not singer,If u want say the way u want in this case any one can challenge any one as Pakistani or indian football team can challenge brazil football team,…….
    Plz dear Messi walk up from dreams don’t compare,Why u all kk fans like RD?why most of kk fans who know about music they never compare KK with Mohd Rafi they try to compare Mohd rafi with Lata ji?
    plz be honest with u r country where a singer like Mohd Rafi born.don’t compare great singers if u want to compare ask who know about music,who have the best song ever singed in bollywood?
    KK was good singer as other but Mohd rafi is and will be after hundreds years alive………………………

  19. 19
    irony81 Says:

    WHOEVER SAYS KISHORE IS BETTER THAN RAFI, HE OR SHE MUST BE A METALLY SICKO. SOME IDIOTS SAY THAT RAFI WAS TRAINED SO KISHORE WAS MORE TALENTED. TO HELL WITH THOSE OPINIONS. THEN AFRIDI IS MUCH MORE TALENTED THAN SACHIN AS SACHIN WAS TRAINED. I KNOW THE SAME VERY KISHORE FANS ARE FANS OF TENDULKAR BUT THEN THEY FORGET THAT SACHIN IS TRAINED.

    RAFI COULD SING THEM ALL. THE HARDEST OF HARDEST SONGS WERE SUNG BY RAFI. THEY WERE JUST MADE THINKING OF RAFI, NOT FOR LATA OR MANNA OR ASHA OR MUKESH, LET ALONE KK. “O DUNIYA KE RAKHWALE” IS THE HARDEST SONG IN THE ENTIRE WORLD SUNG BY RAFI. “DEKHI ZAMANE KI YAARI” THE MOST SENTIMENTAL SONG SUNG BY RAFI. KK HAD MUCH EASIER SONGS.

    WHEN YOU TALK WITH KISHORE FANS ABOUT SINGING, THEY ALWAYS BRING KK’S OTHER QUALITIES LIKE ACTING, DIRECTING, AND WHATEVER! COME ON GYUS. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SINGING. WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN OTHERS! THEN RAFI FANS ALSO CAN BRING RAFI’S GREATEST QUALITY THAT KK DOESN’T HAVE. HIS HUMANITY AND GREAT BEHAVIOUR. HE EVEN SANG WITHOUT MONEY WHERE KISHORE (THE SPOILED CHILED OF A WEALTHY DAD) ALWAYS DEMENDED MONEY BEFORE SINGING. BANGALIS MOSTLY LIKE KISHORE AS HE WAS BANGALI, THAT’S IT.

    IF RAFI WAS BANGALI, THEY WOULD DEFINITELY SAY RAFI WAS MUCH BETTER.

  20. 20
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Thanks for the compliment. I actually regret posting now seeing what respect the two had for one another. In my defense – I did try to illustrate how LIMITED the comparison was – only within me.

    Many Kishore fans will say they don’t care for the song “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale” – that’s perfectly understandable and takes away the need for Kishore to be able to sing it! We cannot impose our likings on others! Sure they’d miss out on appreciation of vocal range but there are many great things in music instead!

    Irony8 – Kishore was absolutely right to demand payment first – if he did not he would have been EXPLOITED big time (and he was often when he let his guard down!).

    I wouldn’t get too much into the Bengali talk or Muslim. It’s silly to say that Kishore was only popular because he was Bengali! You are right to say that there was some prejudice against Rafi Sahab for being Muslim but isn’t prejudice everywhere? This is not a good topic to get into IMO. Prejudice can work both ways but forget it. One thing is for sure: India sure as hell loved and respected Rafi Sahab – did he get shortchanged sometimes? Maybe. But so did Kishore and Manna Dey and everyone for one reason or another (ethnicity, failure to appreciate talent etc.).

    As much fun I had comparing the two, my comparison is really inappropriate and POINTLESS to someone else. Let’s just be grateful that we had BOTH and if you like one then listen to him etc. !

    It is tough for me to resist the temptation of comparing but I’d be embarassed to face Rafi sahab if I made demeaning comments about Kishore I just do it in response to other fans who make comments that I find unreasonable.

  21. 21
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Btw…Udit Narayan actually took singing lessons from Kishore Kumar in the late 80s. Whether this formal “informal lesson” was just done so that Udit could say he took a lesson from Kishore Kumar or if the purpose was to emphasize a specific way of Kishore’s singing, it is interesting.

    It is well agreed that Udit is original and not really a member of Rafi school or Kishore school but…IMO he’s closer to Rafi. Rafi was UNIQUE in terms of his amazing quality and completeness but Kishore was more blatantly unique in the sense he was TOTALLY different from anyone else (whereas Rafi and another singer had some things in common but Rafi was just so much better and could do so much more, Kishore had some elements not seen in other singers at all! (Rafi had his own special unique magic and traits too but this is complicated)).

    Does Udit yodel like Kishore or sing crazy songs like Kishore regularly? No. Unique to Kishore.

  22. 22
    Bapan Says:

    Anil Biswas was totally anti Rafi.He liked Kishoreda’s singing very much.Kishoreda is GOD.Whoever says Rafi is better than Kishoreda,is mad and donkey.

  23. 23
    Bapan Says:

    Love u Kishoreda more than life.

  24. 24
    P. Haldar Says:

    I don’t know why this Bengali issue has come into the debate. I am a Bengali and there are hundreds of diehard Rafi fans that I personally know of in Kolkata. In Kolkata where I grew up, old-timers used to say, “Rafi is Rafi” to preempt any comparison with other singers. For Bengali songs, Kishore, Manna, Hemant, Lata and Asha (the first three are Bengalis) are definitely much more popular; Rafi sang very few Bengali songs. At one time, Talat (known as Tapan Kumar in Bengal) used to be also popular. But we are talking about Hindi songs and I wish some of you were there at the Netaji Indoor Stadium concert featuring RD, Asha, Kishore and Rafi in 1980. Rafi sang last because if he sang first, Kolkatans would have said, “function noshto hoye galo” (the function got spoiled). The response he evoked was simply unbelievable. Adjacent to the Netaji Indoor Stadium is the famous Eden Gardens, where Kolkatans once protested, “No Mushtaq No test”, and forced the selectors to bring back their favourite Mushtaq Ali. Kolkatans respect musicians and sportsmen for their talent, not for their ethnic or religious background.

  25. 25
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Wow…you went to a live concert by Rafi, Lata, and Kishore!?! I wonder how many concerts these three giants did together…that is amazing! You’re very lucky.

  26. 26
    unknow Says:

    Why we compare KK with Mohd Rafi?!!!!!plz don’t do that because this is KK site and i want know more about KK,don’t say what u feel but say what is true………..i want know in how many flims KK singed from 1969 to 1976 and how songs he singed can anyone answer me that?

  27. 27
    Sudip Says:

    I do not know why this Bengali thing has been drawn into this debate..Bengalis listen to a lot of Bengali songs by Kishore and hence are exposed more to Kishore. Also Kishore’s gayki was closer to the Bengali heart. Having said that, there are millions of rafi fans in bengal, including me. To me Indian music had 3 distinct eras-pre-Rafi era, Rafi era and post-Rafi era. In the pre-Rafi era we had MDs like Anil Biswas, Khemchand Prakash and singers like Saigal, Durrani. In the post Rafi era, quality of songs went downhill though KK, Lata and Asha were there. Rafi was the first one to break from the Saigal, Durrani style and introduce the style that lasts even today. If you liten to KK in his early days, he was imitating Saigal..He changed in the 1950s. To that extent, he was also a follower of the Rafi gharana.

    To be fair, let us categorize the different categories of songs of songs in Hindi films and try to name the top 3 male singers in each category (this is my ranking and preference btw, #1 being the best):

    A. Classical- 1. Manna De 2. Mohd Rafi 3. Bhupinder Singh
    B. Thumris and Ghazals- 1. Mohd. Rafi 2. Talat Mehmood 3. Jagjit Singh
    C. Western Rock: 1. Kishore Kumar 2. Amit Kumar 3. Mohd Rafi
    D. Devotional: 1. Mohd Rafi 2. Mahendra Kapoor 3. Narendra Chanchal/Manna De
    E. Sad songs-1. Mohd Rafi 2. Mukesh 3. Kishore Kumar (some people may swap #1 and #2)
    F. Happy songs- 1. Kishore Kumar 2. Mohd. Rafi 3. Lot of new singers (Sonu, Sanu, Udit………)
    G Patriotic songs: 1. Mohd Rafi 2. Mahendra Kapoor 3. Manna De

    I love Kishore songs as well, but I would welcome anyone to fill the list and explore if there is ANY category where Rafi does not figure. To me he is the bridge between the world of Kishore and the world of Mehdi Hasaan and Ghulam Ali.. Rafi was a phenomenon. Kishore’s expressions are understandable, he was an actor. But where did this man who was an introvert get all the expressions that we hear in “Chalkaye jaam” and “Arre Sambhalo (Khuda Kasam)”..

  28. 28
    Sudip Says:

    Sorry missed another classification:
    H. Qawwali 1. Nusrat 2. Mohd Rafi 3. Manna De/Sailendra Singh

    In short there is no song catgory where Rafi does not appear

  29. 29
    P. Haldar Says:

    Manish, the concert I referred to did not feature Lata; it had RD & Asha, Kishore and Rafi (in that order). At the same venue, Rafi performed along with Bhupinder and Runa Laila in 1979, and with Kishore and Runa Laila in 1977. I was fortunate to attend all of them. In 1967 at the Rabindra Sadan Stadium in Kolkata, the whole world of music was there for the Ashok Kumar Nite, but riots broke out before Rafi, Lata, Kishore or Mukesh could reach the venue! That’s Kolkata for you; not a place for the weak-hearted.

    Sudip, I liked your analysis but I’d differ with you on two points. For classical songs, I would rate Rafi No. 1. Madhuban mein radhika is the kohinoor of Indian film music, and Man tadpat hari darshan is the finest exposition of Malkhauns to date. It’s difficult to pigeonhole Rafi into any genre, unlike Manna whom we view mainly a classical singer, Talat as a ghazal singer or Mukesh as a singer of sad songs.

    I’d rate Rafi No. 1 in the rock ‘n roll category too. He was the first to sing in that genre (Laal laal gaal jaan pe hai labu in Mr. X) and he worked wonders for Shammi; for example, listen to Aaj kal tere mere pyar ke charche from Brahmachari or Aaja aaja main hun pyar tera. The way the way the western audiences have reacted to a much lesser known song from Gumnam (Jaan pechchan ho has been used in the titles of Ghost World) is incredible.

    The dimension that Kishore was better in — again, in my humble opinion — was in songs like Yeh jo mohabbat hai, Yeh dil na hota bechara, Yeh kya hua, Zindagi ek safar, Bhanwre ke gunjan and yes, at the risk of committing blasphemy, Tum bin jawoon kahan. I don’t know how to label that genre, probably just call it the Kishore genre, so unique was his full-throated rendition in those songs. I also sometimes wonder if Rafi could have the had the same effect as Kishore in Phoolon ke rang se (Prem Pujari) but I think the old man made a wise decision. Ultimately, it’s the effect that matters and the fact that Kishore could dethrone the mighty Rafi is a tribute to his talent. Rafi came back in 1976 with a bang and at the time of his death, both he and Kishore were at the top. What would have happened if Rafi didn’t die prematurely is anybody’s guess, but it’d be fair to point out that he had the momentum and RD was being forced to use Rafi more and more. If Kya hua tera wada and Maine poochha chand se were in the Tumne mujhe dekha genre, Yamma yamma belonged to the Aaja Aaja main hoon pyar tera style. And I couldn’t believe that RD could compose qawaalis till I heard Hai agar dushman (HKKN) and Pal do pal ke saath hamara (Burning Train). But before RD and Rafi could recreate their memories of the 60s in the 80s, the man Kolkatans lovingly called ROFI was gone!

  30. 30
    Bapan Says:

    Kishoreda is infinity times better than Rafi.

  31. 31
    jayanta Says:

    kishore’da by far is the best playback singer,he had everything inspite of not receiving any formal training, the 50′s and 60′s belonged to rafi..but after aradhana, it was a single way journey to the top for kishore, and he is still there as an uncrowned king!

  32. 32
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    Bapan, you’re totally wrong, you’re a bengali and KK was ben[gali]… Rafi Saheb is the best playback singer of India.

  33. 33
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    Manish Kumar, i do agree with you……. Rafi Saheb was a legends legend.

  34. 34
    unknow Says:

    Sir Jayanta,
    Are you KK fan?!!!!!!do u know who used this word uncrowned king?Do u think that Aradhana was hit because of Music if yes there are two mohd Rafi super hit songs with Lata ji….would u please give me list of KK flims from 1969 to 1976…….Do u know who is KK?

    Sir Sudip,
    thanks for u list of Western Rock as u said 1. Kishore Kumar 2. Amit Kumar 3. Mohd Rafi!!!!!but If u know first bollywood song was copied was rock song made by Ravi and singed by Mohd Rafi,u put KK and Amit Kummar before Mohd Rafi!!!!!!!!in flims songs no one can be number one else than mohd rafi………….
    sorry to say there some people in this site they don’t know about kk how great actor he was they try to say some thing said to other like uncrowned king said by Raj Kapoor to Mohd Rafi he didn’t Mohd Rafi but he said the true

  35. 35
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    Music directors like Anil Biswas, C. Ramchandra, Salil Chaudhry, etc… who were anti Rafi never reached to top, but they came down very fast. But others like SJ, Naushad, LP, KA, Ravi, etc.. prefered Rafi Saheb remained on top. This shows Rafi Saheb’s high class.

  36. 36
    Sudip Says:

    P Haldar:
    I agree with your analysis but I have my own ranking.. But more importantly, your comment on Kishore’s style is absolutely correct. It is very difficult to argue with Kishore’s fans because they only care about that genre. If you confine your preferences to that genre, you cannot like anyone other than Kishore (and possibly his son). Technically it is the same gayki used in Rabindra Sangeets-full throated voice with lot of bass. Rafi’s technique and style is closer to another line of Bengali songs i.e. Nazrool Geeti. Based on similar judgements, I prefer Nazrool Geeti to Rabindra Sangeet. Kishore’s voice is golden but pretty unidimensional with a few variations here and there, the tone is pretty much the same irrespective of the mood. Rafi’s voice is like a river with variations in every turn.

    This is the reason why sentimental songs of Kishore can be played anywhere, in puja pandals, in weddings, everywhere.. Rafi makes a clear distinction in treatment between songs that are made for puja pandals and songs that can be only listened to in pensive solitude. I have never heard “Aapke haseen rukh pe aaj naya noor hai” or “Tumse kahoon ek baat” or “Kahin ek masoom nazuk si ladki” in puja pandals.

    No one has responded to my list of categories/genres and tried to see how the greats figure in that list..If they had done, they would clearly find out why the Outlook magazine and countless people nominated Rafi as the greatest playback singer of all time.

  37. 37
    KKKLAN Says:

    Undoubtedly,Kishoreda is the greatest of all playback singers.Initially he focussed more on acting,he was also a great actor.Later,when he turned only to singing,Rafi and other singers were sweeped out.

  38. 38
    KKKLAN Says:

    Yes Jayanta,Kishoreda is the king.Everyone fromRD,SD,LP,K-A,Rajesh Roshan,Bappi Lahiri,Hemant Kumar,Salilda,Anil Biswas preferred Kishoreda to any other singer.

  39. 39
    P. Haldar Says:

    Dear Sudip,

    I’m glad to know that there’s someone on the same wavelength. The three songs of Rafi’s that you mention were composed by OP, Madan Mohan and Khayyam, all Rafi loyalists. In particular, I have immense respect for Madan Mohan for never wavering in his support for Rafi, even during his lean period. What pains me is when people start attributing compositions like “Tum jo mil gaye ho” to their loRD. It started with the SD tunes, some of which may be valid. But when some of those fanatics started claiming that “Kahin bekhayal hokar” from Teen Deviyan was also copied by the old man from his son, I realized that these guys would say anything to prove their point. A recent thread in this group has discovered the similarities between “Kuchh na kaho kuchh bhi na kaho” (1942: A Love Story) and Dekhi Zamane ke Yaari” (Kagaz ke Phool). I won’t be surprised if someday there’s an announcement that it was actually the younger Burman who composed the latter tune! Actually, the other hit from 1942 (Ed ladki ko dekha to aisa laga) is reminiscent of Rafi’s “Dil ka bhanwar kare pukar” (TGKS). Needless to say, if Kishore and Rafi were both alive and if RD had the power to dictate, both the 1942 songs would have gone to his favourite Kishore. SD’s selection of singers, on the other hand, was exceptionally good, rivaled perhaps by SJ.

    We are blessed that our country produced such great singers as Kishore, Lata, Manna, Asha, Mukesh and Geeta. But in the history of playback singing, Rafi stands as the tallest (no offence to Kishore fans; they are entitled to their own opinions). Unlike the Mangeshkar sisters, Rafi did not have a publicity machine and he didn’t care for one either. To him it was the song that mattered. And when I listen to the strains of “Dekhi zamane ke yari” almost 50 years after he lip-synched for Guru Dutt, I don’t think there’s any singer — dead or alive, male or female, North or South, Bengali or non-Bengali — who would even come close.

  40. 40
    P. Haldar Says:

    Sudip, rather than focusing on genres, I have listed below the singers who are similar to Rafi in different ways:

    Kishore’s vibrance and “masti”
    Asha’s versatility and range
    Lata’s technical perfection and melody
    Manna’s “ustadi”
    Mukesh’s pathos
    Talat’s silky touch
    Geeta’s sensuousness
    Hemant’s sweetness

  41. 41
    Messi Says:

    Oops God !!! I have told infinite times not to compare like this. It seems most of the above
    are just crap, except few tells some truth but not foolish.

    Some of the above posts are really horrible, I mean I doubt on their age and maturity.
    They are great siners man, Rafi vs. Kishore debate is just too much.

    Again this religion fact is so ugly. Learn some manner man and change your attitude.

  42. 42
    P. Haldar Says:

    Hi Messi, the KK-Rafi wars used to be much worse when they were alive. Believe me, they have become much more subdued now. Those days, you couldn’t say anything good about the singer in the other camp, such was the animosity. We should all try to tone down a bit, especially with respect to religion and ethnicity.

    Sudip, you made a very interesting remark on the two different styles of Rabindra sangeet and Nazrul geeti (for the uninitiated, those are respectively the compositions of Rabindranath Tagore and Kazi Nazrul Islam, two of Bengal’s greatest poets). Satyajit Ray made excellent use of Kishore in Charulata (Ami chini go chi tomare). Much later, when Rajesh Roshan lifted the tune of another Rabindra sangeet (Tomar holo suru amar holo sara) for the “Chhoo kar mere manko” song in Yarana, Kishore was incredible. It sounded better than the original! Rafi, as you have rightly pointed out, would be way ahead in Nazrul geeti given that it’s closer to classical-based ghazals. In fact, he cut an LP disc titled “Aajo modhuro bansori baaje” a month or two before he died. But I want to point out that Rabindra sangeet itself has a myriad of styles, some of which are classical-based, and I’d venture to add that Rafi would have done full justice to those songs. The song “Piu bole piya bole” from Parineeta is also based on a Rabindra sangeet and I’m sure Rafi would have excelled in that soft, romantic song too.

  43. 43
    jayanta Says:

    rafi fans must admit, that rafi was going great guns during the 50′s and 60′s, where most great MDs’ prefferred him more, but during tat time, kishore was concentrating more on acting rather than more on singing!
    and after aradhana things changed altogether, kishore rose to the top, and it was a one way journey!

  44. 44
    Sudip Says:

    “fromRD,SD,LP,K-A,Rajesh Roshan,Bappi Lahiri,Hemant Kumar,Salilda,Anil Biswas preferred Kishoreda to any other singer.”

    They went with the tide (producers’ preference).
    And who told you that KK was #1 singer for Hemant, SD and LP?

    -Hemanta’s son in a recent interview has stated that his dad used to think that there was no one even close to Rafi (even Nitin Mukesh had a similar opinion).
    -Rafi was undoubtedly SD’s favorite singer. Even during the lean days, SD made sure Rafi gets some footprint in the songs. Rafi weaved magic with the single songs he got in Abhimaan and Gambler, for instance.
    -Time and again, LP has told that Rafi was their numero uno singer. KK had sung 396 songs for LP and Rafi had sung 369, but 140 of those KK songs were recorded after Rafi’s death.

    Pls check facts before commenting.

  45. 45
    Sudip Says:

    Adding:
    “fromRD,SD,LP,K-A,Rajesh Roshan,Bappi Lahiri,Hemant Kumar,Salilda,Anil Biswas preferred Kishoreda to any other singer.”

    They went with the tide (producers’ insistence because Kishore was selling).
    And who told you that KK was #1 singer for Hemant, SD and LP?

    -Hemanta’s son (Jayanta Mukherjee) in a recent interview has stated that his dad used to think that there was no one even close to Rafi (even Nitin Mukesh had a similar opinion).
    -Rafi was undoubtedly SD’s favorite singer. Even during the lean days, SD made sure Rafi gets some footprint in the songs. Rafi weaved magic with the single songs he got in Abhimaan and Gambler, for instance.
    -Time and again, LP has told that Rafi was their numero uno singer. KK had sung 396 songs for LP and Rafi had sung 369, but 140 of those KK songs were recorded after Rafi’s death.
    -Mukesh was K-A’s favorite singer, not Kishore. Kishore may have sung more songs for KA, but that does not prove anything. It is like saying Anu Malik prefers Alka to Lata because Alka has sung more songs for him. It is purely a circumstantial issue, nothing to do with who he thinks a better singer is.
    -Same with Rajesh Roshan. They used Rafi selectively because of their style. Unless Rajesh thought his dad (Roshan) was an idiot, who understood zilch of music, there is no reason why he would think badly of Rafi.

    That leaves us with RD and Bappi. I have nothing to tell about RD except thay wanted a fresh voice and Kishore provided that.

    Bappi was Kishore’s nephew..I do not need to justify further.

    Pls check facts before commenting.

  46. 46
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Sudip – I have some questions. Can you rank the singers used the most by Shankar Jaikishan? Also, are you sure about SD choosing Rafi the most? I agree this was the case before 1969 but when RD took over, SD had little say. Did SD ever really compose after 1969 and if so, didn’t he “realize” that Kishore was the way to go (essentially, SD changed his mind to Kishore now seeing the popularity)? I of course, like Rafi the most, but I do think Kishore provided a fresh alternative after Rafi had dominated for 20 years and so the shift in dominance for a short while was inevitable.

    Interesting point about LP – when I read the beginning of your sentence, I was shocked – and then I realized yeah, they recorded more with KK after 1980.

  47. 47
    Messi Says:

    Hi Guys,

    There was nothing wrong in SD, RBD’s way of thinking. They just tried with different
    singers, they know the calibre of the singers so gave different songs to different singers
    and when you listen to them, you will feel this is the only singer who can do justice to this
    song. This is how it works, it’s not that others can’t sing it.

    Be it Hum kisi se Kam nahi, Guide, Amar Prem, Aradhana: songs are of different genres
    so the voices suit them perfectly. Don’t find faults in Singers and Composers man.

    Sudip, Haldar I agree. Let’s now move on to discussing different short stories/conversations
    between Rafi and Kishore. Whoever knows anything, please post.

    At least, stop this good, the bad and the ugly business.

  48. 48
    Sudip Says:

    Don’t get me wrong. I think Kishore Kumar had a terrific voice.. He is the voice of the youth.. He represents the exuberance and freshness of youth, something that rightly fit RD’s kind of music. But extending that to say he is the #1 singer is oversimplifying judgement on music.

    Rafi was the #1 singer in SJ’s list, to the extent that I personally think SJ overused him. Apart from Rangoli (1962) I cannot recall any other film where Kishore gave hits under SJ banner before Aradhana. SJ used Kishore more after Aradhana, but by that time interestingly Shankar and Jaikishan had also parted (though they were operating under the SJ banner). To the best of my knowledge one preferred KK while the other preferred Rafi after their separation.

    SD’s post-Aradhana association with Rafi is excellently captured here:
    http://inhome.rediff.com/movies/2000/oct/31burman.htm

    I think there were two factors in play here:
    1. Producers usually went with the market pulse and it is an established fact that Kishore’s freshness was well accepted among the masses during the early 1970s.

    2. The arrival of new set of actors also heralded this transition. Lot of music directors like KA always went for an actor-singer combination. Kishore was Kalyanji’s de-facto choice for Amitabh and Rajesh Khanna (Raaz, Choti Bahu, etc are exceptions), Rafi for Vinod Khanna, Shashi Kapoor and Anil Dhawan, Mahendra Kapoor for Manoj Kumar (there were few exceptions here and there). I doubt if Amitabh had Rajendra Kumar’s personality and voice, the transition would have been that welcome.

  49. 49
    unknow Says:

    Dear Sudip,
    If there is real king as MD I think RD is not in best five,As I think the best is 1,SJ boz they had hit songs With all singer who singed for they,2,Naushand boz he changed the way f music,3,LP after SJ I think they had hit with most of singer who singed for them,4,Madam Mohan who made magic with Mohd Rafi and Lata Ji voice,5, SD burman who dade magic with Dev Anand with Mohd Rafi as I think….

  50. 50
    P. Haldar Says:

    Let us salute the singers and music directors for the gems they have delivered for us. Sudip, I’m not sure if the numbers you’ve given are correct. I’ve seen elsewhere that LP have composed the maximum songs (including duets) for Rafi, though SJ gave Rafi the maximum number of solos. Shankar was more inclined toward Manna and Mukesh, while Jai was Rafi-oriented. Being the exceptional talent that he was, Jai used Kishore very effectively too in Zindagi ek safar, Bhanwre ke gunjan and Geet gaat hoon main. But Rafi was his real star: Baharon phool barsaon, Yeh mera prempatra kar, most of the Shammi songs,… But I agree with Sudip that Jai overused Rafi to the extent that some of his songs became a trite boring. Also, Jai gave Rafi the maximum freedom to maneouvre and Rafi sometimes overdid the gimmicks part. But the biggest blow to Rafi, which surprisingly no one touches on, is Jai’s death in 1971. If Jai were alive, he could have used Rafi to counter RD’s rise. With Jai gone and OP’s fortunes going steeply downward, there was no one to give a real boost to Rafi in the early 70s.

    Unlike SJ, Naushad wouldn’t give any freedom to Rafi or, for that matter, any other singer. It had to be his way. SD would give Rafi more room (e.g., the way he cracks his voice in the last stanza in Din dhal jaye or his playful banter with Asha in Achha ji main haar gaya maan jawo na) but it was always under control. In an interview SD gave in the early 70′s, he called Rafi his first serve and Kishore his second. It didn’t mean that he preferred Rafi to Kishore. What he meant was that he would try hard to serve aces with Rafi (Hum bekhudi mein tum, Khoya khoya chand, Din dhal jaye) but sometimes they went wayward. With Kishore he wanted to be more sure.

    Rafi’s voice had so many degrees of freedom that it was much more difficult to rein all of them in together. Kishore’s advantage and appeal lay in the fact that he could sing straight in his open-throated, rich voice. In fact, the lack of training was to his advantage. If he had received formal training (like Rafi and Manna), I’m not sure he would have able to reach the heights he did.

    In terms of MDs, for Kishore it is Burman & Burman. Take them out, and there’s not a whole lot; some LP, some KA, and some others. One of you mentioned Salil, but Salil’s favourites were Mukesh, Hemant and Talat; never cared much for Rafi or Kishore.

    For Rafi here are the top MDs (the order keeps changing for me ever so often): SD, Naushad, SJ, Madan Mohan, OP, Roshan, Khayyam, LP and Ravi. Among all these MDs, SD and Madan Mohan made the most innovative experimentations with his voice.

    Anil Biswas’s favourite singers were Talat, Mukesh and Manna. As for the comment he made regarding Rafi (“Rafi is no singer”), let me remind Kishore’s fans what their guru said in response: “It’s a stupid statement. I am his greatest fan”. To Rafi, what Anil, Salil or Anna said didn’t matter. At the end of the day, he knew that he was better than anyone in making your hearts sing. When you talk about Rafi, you’ll have to identify which Rafi you are talking about. There are so many Rafi’s; the Rafi of Man tadpat darshan and Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare, the Rafi of Suhani raat dhal chuki and Hum bekhudi mein tumko pukare, the Rafi of Tumhare zulf ke sayen mein and Jaane kya dhoonti rahati, the Rafi or Baharon phool barsao and Tere mere sapne, the Rafi of Madhuban mein radhika and Naache man mora magan dhikna dhiki dhiki, the Rafi of Yeh ishq ishq ishq and Parda hai parda, the Rafi of Yahoo chahe koi mujhe jungle kahe and Cuckoo mast baharon ka main aashiq, the Rafi of Aaja aaja main hoon pyar tera and Aaj kal tere mere pyar ke charche,…. The list is endless. He started so many genres in playback singing; it’s simply mind-boggling! Ultimately, Rafi can compete only with Himself.

  51. 51
    Manish Says:

    Glad to hear that Jaikishan was on Rafi’s side. I always liked Jaikishan over Shankar! Yeah, I had wondered what’d happen if Jaikishan had been around. Nevertheless, you forgot (of course you knew) to mention that LP was competition to RDB in the 70s. Sudip, where do you post? I recall a few years back people marvelled on your great knowledge of music. I certainly do. Thanks for your informative posts.

  52. 52
    Manish Says:

    Oh yeah, sorry, one more question.

    Can you guys give me examples where Rafi seemed over used or the song was boring (esp Jaikishan songs!). It’d still be good I’m sure, just not the usual SJ or Rafi standards! But I’m curious…I’d like to see the sun not be so bright…if that is possible :)

  53. 53
    Manish Says:

    Actually, my question was addressed to both P Haldar and Sudip about where they post.

  54. 54
    Sudip Says:

    Very insightful and almost ditto with my own analysis..I think the best example of Rafi’s innovations under the SJ banner is “Main kahin Kavi na ban jayoo” (Pyar hi Pyar). The antaras are sung with subtle variations, almost to an intoxicating degree. In the last antara, “Yeh jhooki jhooki nigahen” has been sung such that one can feel the eyelids drooping. Everytime I listen to this line, I get amazed to almost magical proportions. Following closely would be “Tauba tauba” in “Main Nigahen Teri Chehre Se” (App Ki Parchhaiyan)

    The love for a particular type of song (which Mr Haldar bracketted as “Kishore genre”) drives most KK fans towards KK. And I think they are perfectly entitled to their opinion. Most KK fans like Rafi’s “Wadiyaan Mera daman” and the truth is I thought it is just an Okay song.. It has nothing to do with Rafi, I think it is just a flat, easy song belonging to the Kishore genre. RD could have well gone with KK for that one. I wouldn’t care less.

    One Kishore song that I think never reached the popularity it deserved was “Bahut Khubsurat jawa ek ladki” (Dostana)..I think it was very well sung on a great composition.

    The place where I differ with Haldar is that I never liked KK’s singing in “Chookar Mere manko”. I know I run the risk of being a minority (if not being single), but I think the song was sung in falsetto and not in true voice. If Rajesh Roshan was indeed looking for a mellowed voice he could have gone for lot of singers including our very own R..There is no point hiding true voice for falsetto.

  55. 55
    Naresh Kumar Sharma Says:

    Mind you Rafians and Kishore Da fans (espocially Mr. Bapan)
    __________________________________________________

    I am sorry to read the the comments of fans of two greates ever singers in the history of film music in so far as male playback singers are concerned. It is really unfortunate that one of the Kishore Da’s Fans (Mr. Bapan) holds Kishore Da infinite times better than Rafi Saab while Rafi fans hold Rafi Saab as the best ever singer.

    Both Rafi Saab and Kishore Da were/are/will always be legends of legends. All the readers will be surprised to know that despite belonging to the same field/arena of work, both the singers were great friends and had great respect for each others work/talent. Even when both were on top of the film music (Rafi Saab reportedly during 1950-1969 and Kishore Kumar reportedly 1970-1987), they refrained from saying anything bad for each other. It is only the fan fallowing of both the singers during their life time or after they are no which has for the sake of satisfying their ego or seeing their favourite singer as the best assessed singer have tried to degrade the work/rendition of other singer. Fan followings of both the singers has nor been analytic in the approach. The approach should be to praise the good works of both the singers. Rather they have adopted the practice of belittling the work/renditions of other singer in order to get their favourite the first position in the film music. They have forgotten that both Rafi Saab and Kishore Da not only were greatest ever singer but also were great human beings. Once when a film personality in the recording room of R.D. Burman tried to appease Kishore Kumar at the cost of degrading Rafi Saab, Kishore Kumar replied immediately that he himself is also a great Rafi fan and he knew how it is difficult to maintain oneself at the peak of film music for the long 20 years. Likewise, Rafi Saab had great respect for Kishore Kumar’s natural talent as a singer/actor. According to Mr. Zahir (Rafi Saab’s Brother-in-law and Secretary), whenever Rafi Saab had to sing with Kishore Da, he would say that he would laugh the whole day. Not only this, whenever Rafi Saab came across any good composition from any of his colleagues (be it Kishore Da), he would congratulate him/her/them over phone. After the release of ‘Aradhana’, when Kishore Da assumed the top position in the film music, Rafi Saab in an interview replied in response to a question that now he was getting less work that-” it is good that he would do only the selected songs and Kishore Kumar is singing very well”.

    Both the singers, Rafi Saab and Kishore Da have rendered many songs which no other singer can sing to that perfection. If Rafi Saab is Tansen in the film music, Kishore Kumar is Baiju Bawra and Manna Dey is Guru Hari Das. However, this does not mean that as Baiju Bawra defeated Tansen in the music battle as per mythology, Kishore Kumar is better than Rafi Saab. Likewise, claiming Rafi to be the better singer than Kishore Kumar at the cost of maligning the work of Kishore Kumar by the Rafians is not right. We (both the fans of Rafi Saab and Kishore Da) should give full respect to both the singers keeping in view the fact that both the singers had great respect for each other and each others work/talent/rendition because only that way we would be respecting our respective favourite singers.

    ( NARESH KUMAR SHARMA)
    A RAFIAN
    nks_ab9@indiatimes.com

  56. 56
    unknow Says:

    Dear sir,
    I agree that KK was a good singer and great actor but i don’t agree that he was at top from 1970 to 1987 becaue in 1970′s there was many new singer because Mohd Rafi went to world tour the MD was looking to some one new to sing Mohd Rafi songs one of them is Anwar.about the top as I think there is one name at the top until today.
    Name like Naushand,RAVI,O P Nayar LP they beleave that there music was hit because of Mohd Rafi and we same something else Do we know how great these people are in music world?

  57. 57
    Sudip Says:

    Manish:
    SJ’s overuse of Rafi was not necessarily in terms of percentage of songs..But to me in lot of films SJ put a whole cocktail songs..I do not know if it was an SJ thing or the director’s discretion, but it is a fact that most films where SJ scored the music had a lot of songs. We come to know about the good ones, we never care about the others that never hit the charts. Take Janwar, Budtameez and Yakeen, for example. They had lot of numbers beyond the popular one. Moreover SJ mostly gave high pitch compositions to Rafi (because he could do justice to them)..But this also meant a higher burn out/overuse for Rafi for unnecessary reasons.

    LP did try to go against the RD-Kishore wave, but as I said before producers and to some extent, actors were so keen on riding the tide that they also succumbed. Take 1972 for example, Kishore was in his peak form, producing hits after hits. LP used Rafi in Ek Nazar, Gora Aur Kala, Roop tera mastana, etc. If you listen to the songs you will find that qualitatively they are no less, if not better than some of the songs produced during the period. Ek Nazar, to me produced the best Amitabh Bacchan duet till date (Patta patta boota boota), but there were few takers. Roop Tera Mastana produced the most sensuous and seductive song of the period (Haseen dilruba), but it did not figure among top Jeetendra hits of the time.

    Between 1971 and 1975 Kishore gave one hit after another, largely backed by the younger Burman et al. No other singer (with the exception of Kumar Sanu between 1990 and 1995-not joking, btw) in the history of Hindi movie did produce such a phenomenon in a 5 year period. Rafi’s supremacy was spread over a period-it was consistent, not a spike.

  58. 58
    Sudip Says:

    Correcting the typos, etc:
    Manish:
    SJ’s overuse of Rafi was not necessarily in terms of percentage of songs..But to me in lot of films SJ put a whole cocktail of songs..I do not know if it was an SJ thing or the director’s discretion, but it is a fact that most films where SJ scored the music had a lot of songs. We come to know about the good ones, we never care about the others that never hit the charts. Take Janwar, Budtameez and Yakeen, for example. They had lot of numbers beyond the popular one. Moreover SJ mostly gave high pitch compositions to Rafi (because he could do justice to them)..But this also meant a higher burn out/overuse for Rafi for unnecessary reasons.

    LP did try to go against the RD-Kishore wave, but as I said before, producers and, to some extent actors, were so keen on riding the tide that LP also succumbed. Take 1972 for example. Kishore was in his peak form, producing hits after hits. LP used Rafi in Ek Nazar, Gora Aur Kala, Roop tera mastana, etc. If you listen to the songs you will find that qualitatively they are no less, if not better than some of the songs produced during the period. Ek Nazar, to me produced the best Amitabh Bacchan duet till date (Patta patta boota boota), but there were few takers. Roop Tera Mastana produced the most sensuous and seductive song of the period (Haseen dilruba), but it did not figure among top Jeetendra hits of the time.

    Between 1971 and 1975 Kishore gave one hit after another, largely backed by the younger Burman et al. No other singer (with the exception of Kumar Sanu between 1990 and 1995-not joking, btw) in the history of Hindi movie did produce such a phenomenon in a 5 year period. Rafi’s supremacy was spread over a period-it was consistent, not a spike.

  59. 59
    P. Haldar Says:

    I’d urge some of the RAFIans to cool down a bit on their anti-Bengali rhetoric. Imagine film music without the likes of Pankaj Mullick, Raichand Boral, Anil Biswas, K. C. Dey, S. D. Burman, Salil Chowdhury, Hemant Kumar, Manna Dey, Geeta Dutt, R. D. Burman and Kishore Kumar. And there are so many others — Runa Laila, Arati Mukherji, Bappi Lahiri, Kumar Sanu — to name only a few.

    The day after Rafi died, AIR Calcutta invited Raichand Boral, one of the stalwarts of New Theatres and Bombay Talkies, to say a few words. This is what I recollect about what he said. Boral was composing a song in the kirtan style (a Bengali devotional form of singing) and he was a little apprehensive about a Punjabi Muslim being able to do full justice to the song. If Rafi was not up to the mark, he thought he would get Bengal’s own Dhananjoy Bhattacharyya to sing the kirtan. Anyway, Rafi was summoned to the rehearsal room. After a couple of rehearsals, Rafi requested Boral to give him a few minutes of free time. During that time, Boral recalled, Rafi went to one corner of the room, did his namaz, and came back for the final take. Boral was simply floored when he heard the final version.

    K. C. Dey, the famous blind singer of Bengal and Manna Dey’s uncle, also used to love Rafi. Manna Dey, in his autobiography (Jeeboner jolsaghore), narrates how his uncle used to make him sing a composition several times and then ask him to call Rafi to pick up the tune. SD used to do the same. Salil, contrary to public opinion, did not dislike Rafi; in fact, he held him in high esteem. Salil’s centerpiece was Lata and his surrounding cast included Mukesh, Talat and Hemant. Salil was brilliant, but not an allrounder in the SD or SJ sense. Even if he had used Rafi more, I don’t think it would have elevated him to a higher level. His tunes were ideal for Mukesh and Talat.

    The Bengali MD who missed out big time on Rafi was RD. Here was a composer with so much raw talent and with such a great understanding of orchestration (SJ, Salil and OP were also excellent in orchestration). But somehow he kept Rafi at a distance. And Chhote Nawab could compose in so many idioms — rock ‘n roll, classical, folk, soft romantic, etc. Yet, except in the 60s when he had no choice and in the late 70′s during Rafi’s second coming, he totally disregarded Rafi. Take Mere Nain Sawan Bhadon; where was the need to use Kishore for that song? Kishore fans, please don’t get upset; Kishore himself lists that song in his top 10 list, but you know what I mean? Or take Hume tumse pyar kitna (I’m not 100% sure whether Rafi was alive at the time). These songs are not Kishore’s forte. But the real missed opportunity was Badi sooni sooni re from Mili; it was an SD composition but the story is that because of Dada’s ill health, RD did the final recording. If SD were calling the shots, I can’t be fully sure if he would have used Rafi, given that by that time his loyalties were shifting Kishore-ward, but can you imagine the effect had Rafi sung the song? Probably another Hum bekhudi mein tumko pukare chale gaye! Incidentally, Kishore lists this song also in his top 10.

    On the other side of the coin, let’s look at an example of a song that Kishore could have done full justice to. Rafi actually playbacked for Kishore in this song: Ajab hai dastan teri hai zindagi in the film Shararat. SJ were the composers. Think about the tune; Kishore could have sung this song easily and effectively in his unique, straight voice. But we need to admire Kishore for giving the song to Rafi without a fuss. The effect? Any less? I’ll let you decide.

  60. 60
    myk Says:

    This analysis here is interesting. Both Rafi and KK were great singers, but I am with P. Haldar and Sudip on this one, Rafi was indeed a phenomenon, but this is not to degrade other singers in any way possible. KK was also a genuine talent, and had his own unique style.

    P. Haldar, you read my mind about SJ. I have always wondered what if Jai were alive, how the situation would have been different. SJ officialy broke up after Sangam, in fact they composed seperately right from the 50′s, however they used to work on eachothers songs together, give inputs etc. It was only after Sangam that they actually composed seperately for different banners but also coming together for projects. However both were inclined towards Rafi, and they both composed beauties for him.

    The interesting part is that after Jai passed away, most of the SJ banners went to RDB. Contrary to popular belief, SJ were not finished by 1970, they had many big banners signed for future films with all the big filmmakers and producers and with one single stroke it all broke down and Shankar had to pick up the pieces by himself with all those banners gone. Had Jai lived, I think the situation would have been different. Mind you, KK would still have gotten his time to shine in the early to mid seventies, but with a different scenario. As we know it, it was a battle between RD, LP, KA and even SD on the charts with others following suit, with contributions here and there. Out of the four it was the Burmans mostly towards KK, also using Rafi, LP was to Rafi but also using KK, and KA struck a balance. Had Jai been alive, he would have probably used KK but Rafi would have definitely there as well, most likely even more. The top song of 1971 was Jai’s Zindagi Ek Safar by KK, he passed away way too young, in fact at the age of just 39, he still had a lot in him, and Shankar would have not gone out the way he did had Jai lived. RDB also had immense regard for Jai, he was influenced by his jazz compositions and by his talent, Jai taught Kalyanji balancing and mixing in the studios and ofcourse Laxmikant was a huge Jai fan, just like Rafi was a phenomenon so were SJ, and for me particularly Jai, no one could compose romantic songs the way he could. He was the complete composer by all standards.

    Secondly, the Bengali topic gets out of hand sometimes, I know of a huge lot of Bengali’s who are Rafi fans. It is the media who has created the impression that the majority of Bengali’s don’t like Rafi and like KK because he was Bengali, this is utter nonesense and crap (mind the language), I hope people do not believe such idiotic statements.

    Another interesting point is that although we here of RD-KK, RD-Rafi has been underappreciated. I acknowledge RD as a trendsetter, he was a very talented musician even though he looked to inspirations from the West quite a bit, I wish he had used Rafi a bit more. But he did use Rafi for many great songs, and was his second most used singer for most of his career. If you look at RD’s memorable songs from the 70′s and early 80′s. it will have Rafi right there, that is where the irony lies. Take Churaliya Hai Tumne, Maine Poocha (which was a whopper Rafi hit when released), Kya Hua Tera, one of his finest from the 70′s, Gulaabi Aankhen etc. Rafi is right there. RD’s best albums contain Rafi, and after HKSKN RD could never achieve the same success until 1942 ALS. Yes, he did have a soft spot for KK and that is understandable. It is popular belief that RD didn’t compose for Rafi after Aradhana, which is again false, in fact he was right there until 1972. RD composed for many low-budget films and in those films there are many hidden gems by all singers including Rafi and the early 70′s was RD’s most creative period. From about 73-76 we have Rafi making choice appearances, some attribute this to RD looking at Rafi from only a meledious angle, yet they were nice songs, and then 76 onwards he returns more frequently. We did miss out on the RD-Rafi magic, most of the 80′s.

    I also agree with Sudip, Rafi would feature in any category of singing, its not a fair comparison for Rafi to be matched against any singer. Also Rafi would feature in many MD’s top list, whereas for KK it is mostly the Burmans, as pointed out followed by others. But this does NOT take anything away from KK being a great singer in his own right.

    P. Haldar and Sudip, I am interested in knowing your views on RDB vis a vis Rafi, what is your take on this combination.

  61. 61
    myk Says:

    I forgot to mention, that both S & J also did think highly of RDB. Satish Wagle the producer of ‘Namak Haram’ (and one of Jai’s close friends) wanted Shankar to do the score that film, after Jai passed away, but Shankar insisted he give the film to RDB because RD was talented and coming up as an MD.

  62. 62
    myk Says:

    Besides the Burmans who really backed Kishore, the other MD’s Kishore sang for quite a bit were LP, Bappi Lahiri, Rajesh Roshan, and KA. LP and KK combined for quite a few songs between 80-87 when Rafi had passed away. For Rafi, the MD list is endless.

    Yes, I fully agree RD missed out big on using Rafi. Rafi sang about 120 odd songs compared to the almost 600 that Kishore sang for the Junior Burman. I don’t think that was justice to Rafi’s talent. RD hardly paid attention to Rafi for his classical based themes as well. There are ofcourse the qawwalis, but in films like Kinara, Aandhi, Parichay etc. he chose Bhupinder instead, not to say Bhupinder didn’t do a good job, its just that the Rafi effect would have been different.

  63. 63
    P. Haldar Says:

    Hi myk, I discussed issues related to the RD-Rafi combo in my previous email. But I think you are more interested in knowing why RD didn’t use Rafi a little more. Honestly, I don’t know what the correct answer is, but I don’t think it was out of malice, given that RD was a genuinely nice soul. If you force me to give me an answer, I would say that RD wanted to break away from his father’s shadow, and what better way than to sideline Rafi? Trendsetters do things that go against the run-of-the-mill thinking, and if you consider that group of MDs, the top ones were SJ, OP, SD and RD. All of them did things that were pretty unconventional.

    There is another hypothesis that you could mull on. It is not founded on any evidence, but I just have that sneaking suspicion that at the back of his mind RD knew that if Rafi came back on top, LP could give him hell with their favourite weapon. That is exactly what happened after HKHN; LP started giving the entire score of a film (e.g., Sargam) to Rafi, which meant that RD had to follow suit. Record songs with Rafi and have jalebi and halwa at Rafi’s favourite sweet shop thereafter.

    After Rafi died, Nitin Mukesh told an interviewer that the rate at which Rafi was signing songs in 1980 would keep singers like him waiting for years. God only knows how many of those songs would have been composed by RD. Rafi’s death affected LP the most, but they somehow managed to adjust, while after Kishore’s death, RD was gone.

    As for SJ, you can easily identify who among the two composed a tune by looking at the lyricist. Barring a few instances, if it is Shailendra it is Shankar, and if it is Hasrat it is Jaikishan. Both extraordinary talents, with the former more inclined toward Mukesh and Manna, and the latter toward Rafi. As for the female singer, Lata was their one and only choice, till Sharda came to the scene and knocked the hyphen off the duo. When Rafi and Lata fought, contrary to the lies spread by the media (especially the Raju Bharatan kind) that Rafi was hurt more, SJ happily used Suman Kalyanpur with Rafi, SD used Asha with Rafi (though Gaata rahen might have gone to Rafi if they had patched up before), and even Naushad and Madan Mohan had to be content with Asha. The only music directors who did some balancing were LP and KA, who most probably would have given fewer duets to Mukesh and Mahendra Kapoor had the titan and the titaness nor quarrelled.

  64. 64
    Shah Nawaz Says:

    Dear Mr.Messy ….( This is to Messy )

    How Udit become far better singer than Sonu nigam..Udit has a unique mellow voice and stlye i commit…But sonu nigam is something different..technically perfect and can go to any pitch..his Voice is just take us to anywhere…Sonu can sing udit’s song easily…but is udit can sing any difficult song of sonu to that rhythm…? tell me honestly..the one like ‘Mere rang de’, like ‘Kismat se tum’, like ‘sathiya’, ……
    I like Udit very much..cant forget the his song like ‘pehla nasha’..some time KK sing beutifully than Udit…but as a perfect singer i will point out Sonu Nigam ……..

  65. 65
    Debjyoti Says:

    Kishoreda is just way ahead than Rafi as a singer.That’s it.

  66. 66
    Debjyoti Says:

    Kishoreda is the grtest singer of all times.

  67. 67
    Debjyoti Says:

    Kishoreda’s largest fan club in orkut has 68,000 members while Rafi’s 10,000.This just shows what Kishoreda is.In fact,Kishoreda is the most popular singer,no other Indian singer has more fans than Kishoreda in orkut.People of every age,status prefer Kishoreda.In orkut,even Shaan,Sonu,Hariharan and Balasubramaniyam has more fans than Rafi.

  68. 68
    myk Says:

    I mentioned Bhupinder for Aandhi earlier, a typo, it was Kishore-based, but Rafi could have been used along with Kishore in films such as Amar Prem, Khushboo, Mehbooba etc. This is not to say that KK did not do a good job, he did very well in the songs from these films.

    Whenever RD composed for Gulzar, there was something unique about it, however the only great song Rafi sang for this combo is “Jab Ek Kaza” from Devta. The other Rafi songs from Aandhi, Ghar etc. are just average IMO if you compare them to the KK songs from the same films.

  69. 69
    Shaan Says:

    Hey guyzz..Dont Compare Rafi with Kishore…Hey How cruel to do so..

    Rafi is the greatest of all….

    i stick to comment of ‘irony81′ did on may 12th…its just like comparing sachin to afridi…

    Rafi came from a very poor family in Punjab…every one knows how he raised up…

    Y kishore can’t train the music..does not he has money to give dakshina to his guru..so funny…..

    Dear Bengali Bors and sisters Kishoreda is from ur place everyone love the fame from theirown place but dont keep hide the truth..the same happened to Saurav’s case…
    If So I Must stick and Compare Legend YesuDAS to Rafi Saheb…as am from kerala….The number of National awards he recieved is itself pove that …But He itself said and says about Rafi that ” Rafi saab was my guru in the heart. his songs guided me to the path of music..”

    Any hard song he make easier…that’s the talent..

    Every year the small,hindi less used state like kerala conduct Rafis memmorial programs,concerts ..at every districts even…pple will shock,that much Rafi is to southindians…so no need to ask about northies.

    This is my experience when i went to Russia ,I asked a Guy there who all u knw in india, he said ” I know Amit ( meant Bachan),I know Khan (He meant Sharukh), I know Mohammed Rafi ”
    that’s what he is ….

    Am TRAINED IN karnatic and hindustani …i knw abt something abt music…So Rafi is Rafi ….No one can near to him..sometimes Sonu nigam is better than Kishore Kumar …

  70. 70
    binu nair Says:

    I am fully with Mr Halder when he says that some some of the
    songs Kishore sung could have been different – become classics
    like Hum Bekhudi me tumko… if RAFI HAD sung it. What about a
    RAFI version of Chingari koi badhke – for a variety and a
    comparative purpose..

    KK is a great singer but he had great limitations. R.D.Burman another
    great talent under utilised Mohd Rafi for some reasons – and paid
    a price for it.
    LAXMIKANT PYARELAL USED KISHORE KUMAR VERY DEFTLY
    THUS SUCCESSFULLY IN MANY SONGS.

    The point I wish to state is that music lovers lost good songs from
    the R.D-RAFI stable.. in the seventies…

    binu nair…

  71. 71
    binu nair Says:

    Mr. Halder saab:

    I like your lines. YOU HAVE COME OUT WITH SOME CLASSIC
    COMMENTS in the above articles. Please keep it up…. and if
    possible please contact me on :

    binus2000@hotmail.com

  72. 72
    Sudip Says:

    To me, the RD-Kishore association was a win-win. Because Rafi was so consistent and almost “boringly” perfect with all the music directors, that the only way RDB could create a differentiator with other music directors of that time was through a new voice. Kishore offered that perfectly. What hurt Rafi however was that RD did not use him even for classical numbers during the period, most of them going to either Manna or Bhupinder.

    Continuing on P. Haldar’s reasonling of Kishore’s success from simplicity, I sincerely doubt if Hamen tumse pyar kitna would have been as big a hit had Rafi sung it. First of all, had rafi sung it, RD would have retained the strains of the female version in the male version as well (he was forced to simplify the male version at Kishore’s failure to render the classical version), and Rafi would have matched Parveen Sultana in every note. Such a classical number might not have been as big a hit.

    As far as RDB is concerned, he did produce a lot of hits with Rafi- Caravan , The Train, , Teesri Manzil, Yadon Ki Baraat, Abhilasha, Pyar Ka Mausam, HKKN, Shaan, Abdullah being the salient ones. But my favorite numbers are: Zamane ne marey (Baharon Ki Sapne) and Pyar Hai Ik Nishan Qadmon Ka (Mukti), the former being from the pre-Aradhana period and the latter from the post-HKKN period. The former one also had Rajesh Khanna in the main lead. It is a superb song, to that fact it is ironical that the RDB-Rajesh Khanna combo brought about the end to Rafi’s monopoly
    in male playbck singing.

  73. 73
    nazeer Says:

    to me it is RAFI KJ JESUDAS KISHORE KUMAR (1 2 3)

  74. 74
    Messi Says:

    Oops !!! I can’t help it man. Naresh Kumar Sharma ji, I loved what you said.
    A perfect analysis and good article. But I can’t stop them from writing such bad
    posts, even you have posted that message, they keep writing the same thing.

    I feel sorry. You are right what you said. But they won’t understand, they will be
    doing what they have been doing. See the analysis, aisa lagta hai
    uchi makan phika pakwan. Log kya kya baatein kar rahe hain. Inka ye style thik nahi
    tha. Kishore is better, Rafi is the best. ye gaana rafi se behtar kishore ne gaya.
    aur to aur chhookar mere man ko, ye gaane mein kishore ka voice thik nahi tha
    matlab not in true voice. bade logon ke bade bade baatein.

    jitni zyada analysis utni hee pakav analysis. Log aadat se majboor hai, nahi sudhrenge.

    Thank you naresh kumar ji for such a nice comment.

  75. 75
    Prakash Shah Says:

    Both Rafi and kk were great individually.
    it is foolishness to compare different personalities , both are unparrereled. Right from beginning till year 2000 film industries ruled by financier and disttributors .Producer directors were puppet infront of financers and they are directed according to film distributors/financiars to sale theire forth coming.and to keep financer happy producer fix according to theire choice that who will be singer /even cast/md etc etc according to salebility of them. Before aradhana kk sang mostly for comedians ,jokers,and second leading hero .only dev /sd/rd/had given him chance in navketan that also Rafi as aregular , .thats why kk started his own production house to exploit himself.;and produced beautyful film like doo gagan ki chhao main etc.It was adark period of kk but whenever he got chance he pearformed well.
    B’for aradhana in his own starrer or else like” pyarkiye jaa,jwelve thief,rangoli,teen deviyan,ek muthi aasman,bhoot bangla” etc etc.he did good.
    ok ! After aaradhna Rajesh khanna become super star who was earlier signed by Navrang studio (andheri) being run by shakti samanta,pramod chakraborty,ramanand sagar,j.om prakash etc etc so every producer of navrang strted announcing theire forth coming with RK as rk was being paid by them since long and rk started recomending producer and director to signed kk as his singer.and that way kk came full fledgly in to market and it is good that we are getting chance to hear both legend.
    rest on you to believe it or not but one thing is important dont waste time in wrong issue debate ,as per hindu philosophy wait and watch theire reincernation…. till then listen and valued them what they left for us.

  76. 76
    P.Narayanan Says:

    Well done true music lovers especially the most knowledgeable Sudip,Manish,Haldar,Naresh Sharma,MYKand some others who has commented above very analytically.
    The great composers Shanker Jaikishen, S.D.Burman,Naushad,O.P.Nayyar,Roshan,Ravi,Madan Mohan and Laxmikant Pyarelal who had dominated the fabulous 50s and the swinging 60s used only the great Rafi Sahab for majority of the songs. Mind u those days films had 10 songs easily and the two stalwarts Rafi sahab n Lataji dominated the proceedings. In my opinion this period was the BEST IN PRODUCING EVERGREEN MELODIES BY THE ABOVE COMPOSERS WHERE RAFI SAHAB TOTALLY DOMINATED. Yes there was Mukeshji who confined to RK films and Kalyanji Anandji music, Manna da was good in classical character and few comedian filmed songs. Kishore da playbacked for Dev Anand and himself in the few films he had sung.
    Many of us are not aware that Shanker Jaikishen used Rafi Sahab for almost 364 films and LP for 373 films. Infact another surprise for me was that pre Aradhna SDB used Rafi Sahab for 90 films out of 120 films. Please elucidate these facts for me Sudip, Manish,Haldar.Myk and Naresh.
    Amongst Naushad, Madan Mohan, OPN it was also Rafi all the way. Now we know Roshan and Ravi the melodious composers picked up their best bet Rafi over Mukesh n Mahendra in that order ( As BR Chopra was close to Mahendra).
    Once again Rafi sahab came with a big bang in the 77-80 period thanks to Rafi Bakths like LP,Madan Mohan ( who stood by Rafi in Laila Majnu in 75).
    Yes the two good friends Rafi Sahab and Kishore da dominated this period but the melody or the songs of earlier magic was lacking as the music dynamics changed. The tastes of listeners changed drastically. This is my opinion and the two legends did their best to ring the charts under LP who dominated the proceedings followed by Rajesh Roshan,RDB,Bappi Lahiri and KA in that order.
    The blind fans Debojit and Bapan are ignorant of the facts and they repeat parrot like in the above blog. Also Kumar Sanu who is a clone had played Rafi Sahab song Tum Mujhe bula na paoge in the Jaimala program in radio in 1985. Abhijeet another clone always revered his favorite legends but also worships Rafi Sahab and had sung Shammi Kapoor songs in T series. Shaan loves Kishore da and Rafi Sahab equally. Simillarly budding singers like KK,Babul always learned from the two legends.
    Dear Messi, Udit Narayan had paid tribute to Rafi Sahab in Screen last year the copy which I have where he mentions that he belongs to Mohd Rafi School of Music.
    No wonder that todays most successful singers Udit and Sonu owe their success to the humble giant Rafi Sahab.
    The outlook survey where Rafi sahab songs were judged the best had Kumar Sanu,Abhijit along with Shankar Ehsan Loy, Javed,Khayyam,Mann da,Annu Malik etc….
    Do I Have to say anymore ?
    Narayanan

  77. 77
    usha L.G Says:

    Excellent article but the debate is healthy restricted to few like Haldar,Sudip,Manish,Naresh,MYK,Praksh,Shaan,Messi,Narayanan.
    IN MY OPINION IF U TAKE THE ENTIRE BOLLYWOOD PLAYBACK SINGING FIELD ONLY 2 GAINTS EMERGE LATA AND RAFI FOLLOWED BY KISHORE,MUKESH AND ASHA. AS RIGHTLY POINTED BY HARIHARAN THAT 5 GREATS DOMINATED HINDI FILMS AND 5 GREATS DOMINATED SOUTH FILMS TMS,YESUDAS,SPB,SUSHEELA AND JANAKI.
    DEAR DEBOJYOTI,
    HOW CAN U TAKE ORKUT STATISITCS WHICH IS USED BY ELITE ?. U CAN COMPARE THE FEW AGAINST 100 CRORE POPULATION.
    I HAVE ALSO INTERACTED WITH MANY THOSE FROM THE OLD AND YOUNG WHO LOVES GOOD MUSIC THE ABOVE IS TRUE. FACTS WILL BE BITTER BUT THEY ARE RIGHT.
    AGAIN IAM NOT DEBATING OR BELITTLING UR FAVOURITE.
    Regards,
    Usha

  78. 78
    P. Haldar Says:

    Thanks everyone, especially the Kishore fans, for letting us share our thoughts freely on this website. Messi, don’t be upset when people compare the two; that’s bound to happen when you are considering the two greatest “playback” singers of all time. Do you know of any other pair in the music industry (e.g., Lata-Asha, RD-LP, Sahir-Majrooh) who is compared this often and that with so much passion? It just adds that extra glitter to tha aura of these two legends.

    Here’s a parting thought. Dear Kishore fans, please listen to the 1958 duet Rafi sang with Asha in Kala Pani: Aachha ji main haar gaya maan jao na. Nothing extraordinary about the song, but take note of Rafi’s nuances for Dev in that song. Fast forward to Teen Deviyan (1965) and listen to Kishore’s Aare yaar meri tum bhi ho gazab; you’ll see how Kishore very intelligently adapted (not copied) Rafi’s style in that song and in many other Dev songs.

    Rafi was a singer’s singer, someone whom Kishore, Manna, Talat and Mukesh adored; Yesudas, S. P. Balasubramaniam, and Udit Narayan idolized; and Mahendra Kapoor, Anwar, Shabbir Kumar, Mohd Aziz and Sonu Nigam emulated. So what if kids at Orkut and other websites don’t listen to Rafi? Rest assured that all their gurus used to listen to Rafi before going to sleep, so that they could go up a notch higher in the art of playback singing.

  79. 79
    myk Says:

    P. Haldar,

    Thanks for your comments. Jaikishan was Rafi inclined but I am pretty sure Shankar loved Rafi as much. In an interview I had read from Shankar, the questioner asked why after the success Manna had with SJ was he slowly eased out of SJ’s recording room in favour of Rafi. Shankar responded by saying that it wasn’t anything to do with easing out Manna, it was just that Rafi was miles ahead of him as a singer. On the other hand, Jai also composed for Mukesh as well, SJ made use of a variety of singers but Rafi was their ace.

    Coming to RDB, as you said, he most probably wanted to be different, so he didn’t use Rafi saab as much. By 1980, Rafi was indeed singing a lot and had hits everywhere, and you are right, we might never know the amount of songs RD would have composed for Rafi in the 80′s. At that time, RD started taking Rafi more for not only films in general but big-budget movies as well.

    Please keep on writing, your comments are very interesting and nice

    What are your other views on RD vis a vis Rafi ?. RDB’s decline started around the early 80′s, could Rafi have saved him from that had he been there ?.

    Sudip,

    I had read one of your comments in another forum that “Zamane Ne Mare” and “Pyar Hai Ik Nishan” would feature in the Top 5 f RD, I agree with you, these two songs are both masterpieces from the RD-Rafi combo, they produced a lot of hits together.

    Another favourite of mine is “Aye Jaan-e-Wafa” from Chhalia, fantastic use of the guitar by Pancham, and Rafi’s singing is excellent.

    Please keep on writing as well, your views are also nice.

  80. 80
    binu nair Says:

    Dear Prakash,

    U are r i g h t.

    Actually RAFI saab took a big holiday from the industry when
    he went for HAJ. During this period someone told rafi that
    singing in films is haram not religious and the innocent rafi
    believed it and went off to London to live with his sons.
    There rafi sons due to the pressures to sing sent RAFI saab
    back.
    By this time due to the vacuum created by rafi absence – Kishore
    Kumar came on back and this lasted for few years. Then Rafi saab
    came with a bang with Laila Majnu.
    R.D. BURMAN – would not have faded if he had balanced RAFI
    and Kishore like what S.D.BURMAN had done earlier to the two
    great talents.
    The arrival of Kishore Kumar meant more variety and we are richer
    musically – due to the great competition from two very talented
    s i n g e r s of our times….
    Lets enjoy the numbers of singers from 40s onwards. THEIR VOICES
    WERE GOLDEN AND ALL OF THEM LEFT A GREAT LEGACY FOR US..

    Lets enjoy these and desist from COMPARING OUR LEGENDS…
    BINU NAIR..

    binus2000@hotmail.com

  81. 81
    Messi Says:

    Dear Hussein Sheikh,

    You said Anil Biswas, C.Ramachandra, Salil Chowdhuri never reached the
    top and came down very fast that too because they prefered otehr not
    rafi ? come on, are you religiously blind ? They were legends by their
    own rights. There were other great singer at that time, they were happy
    with them so never tried with rafi. Don’t know about Anil Biswas and Rama
    but Salil had so many excellent tunes with Rafi. Remember Madhumati ?
    A lot more are there. Stop writing kiddish or biased statements.

    There are only 3 MDs who got the highest award from Sangeet Natak
    Academy and they are.

    1. Salil Chowdhuri, 2. Naushad, 3. S.D. Burman

    Mind you, Salil is there in the list and your comment is like he is not great.

    Shan Nawaz,

    Good to read your post. You think Sonu can sing in any pitch ? good joke.
    Tell me any difficult song he sang ? yes he is technically more talented
    than Udit, but he doesn’t have voice and melody.

    He lacks the melody when he sings in high pitch, and this is his biggest
    flaw. When he tries to sing in high pitch it seems it’s getting tough for
    him and the melody is no more. Do you feel such in Udit’s voice ? no
    not at all. All though Udit is not versatile or he is very monotonous but
    he is anyday better than Sonu. Another major disadvantage is ask Sonu
    to sing a sad song, you can feel what I am trying to say.

    Udit can sing in any pitch, and with ease. I don’t see that perfection
    and impact in sonu’s voice but both are talented but Sonu’s voice is
    no match to Udit’s. Only thing I like about Sonu is he can sing Rafi
    songs. Can copy Rafi with some percentage.

  82. 82
    binu nair Says:

    Debjyoti:
    What is this ORKUT BUSINESS ?..
    Rafi saab lives in the hearts of millions of music lovers not in ORKUT.
    MORE, PLS MODERATE YOUR VOCABULARY as other writers can
    write better dirty words, I am sure. But they would not stoop down
    as they are educated and enlightened M U S I C lovers.

    binu nair

  83. 83
    Debjyoti Says:

    Kishoreda is the greatest of all times.Check different people paying tribute to the genius.
    http://www.yoodleeyoo.com/specials/19th_death_anniv.html

  84. 84
    unknow Says:

    Dear Debjyoti
    Kishoreda’s largest fan club in orkut has 68,000!!!!!!!!!!!! members while Rafi’s 10,000.!!!!!!!!This just shows what Kishoreda is.In fact,Kishoreda is the most popular singer,no other Indian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!singer,are u sure?!!Do u know who is KK?!! only 68,000,Plz tell me when good music stared and when finished,as we know born in 1950′s was young in 1960′s was old in 1970′s and end in 1980 would u say why?Can u give RD best film?
    u r!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????????

  85. 85
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    I live in Africa and people (negros) here love and admire Rafi Saheb’s songs.

  86. 86
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    This is Kishore Kumar’s site, but to my surprise, 90% praise Rafi Saheb in KK site!!! Rafi Saheb was far-far ahead of all singers including Lata Mangeshkar.

  87. 87
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    Dear Messi, Salil Chowdhary made good songs I agree, but I said he was never on top like SJ, LP, KA and others…….. Rafi Saheb sang for him in Madhumati, Maya, etc….

  88. 88
    jayanta Says:

    RDB had a hand in kk’s success, along with SDB..sdb used to give kishore a lot of his renditions during the early 50′s..butnot quite frequently during the late 50′s and ealry 60′s..after that he used kk more often!..
    rafi was the prime singer and singer in demand in fact to be called the best in the buisness during the 60′s..but after aradhana it was kisorw who rose to the top..and in the 70′s..he was used more by most mds!..even lp,mm etc etc who were loyal to rafi during the 60′s..turned towars kk due to the latter’s growing popularity…lp told that n an inetrview that they were forced to use kk during the70′s more as kk was the singerin demand then..and ppl wanted his songs..Ka also used kk moreoften during the 70s..and every one knows abt the rdb-kk combo which took the music industry by storm after aradhana..!..

  89. 89
    zeenath Says:

    most keralites like rafi songs than kksongs.most of us donot undstant hindi.but weapreciate hindi songs .whenever one speak abot kk he tends to compare him with rafi.when one speak about rafi he speak only about his magical voice and his special style of singing.in kerala there is a saying kks sound is coarse like the sound produced when a coconut shell is rubbed on a rock.this may be becose of the presence of kjdas and his sweet sound inkerala people so feel.i think kjdas better than kk

  90. 90
    Debjyoti Says:

    Yes unknown,I am sure.You can check it in orkut.Kishoreda is infinity times better and more popular than any other singer,including Rafi.

  91. 91
    Debjyoti Says:

    Ask any common people and experts,99% will say that Kishoreda is the best.

  92. 92
    A Singh Says:

    KK and Rafi are two different personalities all together. They both are legends.

    KK intially was not very successfull as a singer in the 50s because the norm at that time adopted by most Music Composers for singers at the time was perfect Urdu pronounciation, range of operation on high musical notes, variation in voice. This was the era when Rafi and Manna Dey where holding the center stage in singing. The result which KK entered in different areas like acting, Comedy, music composition, writing apart from singing. It brought him in comparison every where, thought he can never be considered bad or sub standard in any one them.

    Plus another factor was the most singers were trained by some Pandit / Ustad. For example Mukesh got training under Pt Jaganath Prasad. This helped him in building good reputaion with music composers Anil Biswas & Salil Chaudhuri. This is were KK was a bit unfortunate.

    As an actor his co stars where always best Actresses like Madhu Bala, Nutan, Vijyantimala, Meena Kumari, etc. But since there were Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand & Raj Kapoor most of his works were over shadow.

    Similarly as a Comedian there were Johnny Walker, Mehmood, Om Prakash, etc who were specialists in their area. Keshto Mukherjee just did one silly act through out his career, but he is remembered for that till date.

    Same as music composer his compostions were brillant certainly superior that many C grade music composers of that time. He himself was not classically trained, but he certainly had a fair good knowledge of Raags. His composition “Koi Hamdam na Raha” is based on Raag Jhinjhoti.

    Because of these comparisions KK faced stiff competition everywhere, the result of which he was not able to charish mass appeal in any area as such. Most artists whether singers, MD, actors, comedians, etc they concentrated in one area knowing their limitations and putting extra efforts on there strong factors. 50s and 60s for the era of perfection & accuracy where only the best was perferred. This was not the case with KK in 50s and 60s.

    In late 60s and 70s KK concertrated only on singing, so one can see the results. Since KK charied mass appeal a singer in 70s his all previous achievements as an actor, comedian, film maker, director, music composer, song writer, etc. are looked upon as great quantities of a singer by history. That is what makes him a legend.

    A lot of credit goes to Dada Burman in shaping KK as per his body language knowing his limitations. Later it was carried forward by son Pancham. Dada Burman was responsibile for songs for couples involving leg pulling. In majority duets sung by KK and the female counter part, KK always steals the show. In order words Dada new the right musical notes to exploit KK of screen.

    A lot as been written on Rafi so no point in going in too much detail.

  93. 93
    binu nair Says:

    In Kerala during my visits I found the following facts.

    a. K.J. YESUDAS IS THE NO one SINGER in Malayalam.

    b. Mohd Rafi – in hindi leads by over 90% for his class singing.
    there are Rafi pictures in most music lovers houses.
    c. KK has sung a malayalam number but he has very few
    followers.

    binu nair

  94. 94
    binu nair Says:

    Mr Bapan: U use words like mad and donkey with whom you
    do not agree. Each one has his right to opinion.
    And each one know how to use better dirty words for persons such
    as you but due to ethics and decency – they the music lovers of
    class – wont use these.

    By the way which school did you go if at all and do you buy
    front row tickets for watching a movie since people with such
    vocabulary are found there..

    binu…. mumbai….

  95. 95
    P. Haldar Says:

    Jayanta, I thought I’d leave this debate and do other things till I saw your post on “even mm using kk more” and thought I’d like you to point out a few facts. I know you are an aRDent fan and I read your loRD’s blog site from time to time out of curiosity. Let me tell you one thing: among all the sites I have seen, yours is the site that distorts facts the most. The basic premise of your discussion is how everyone from SD to MM to LP copied your loRD’s tunes. Why do you do this? What purpose does it serve? I don’t have any problems if you think RD and Kishore are the best; you are entitled to your own opinions. But why say MM used Rafi more? Which song are you talking about: Ek Muthi Aasman?

    The idiom that MM composed in is ghazal (gojol, as Bengalis would say) and he was the king. Forget Rafi and Lata, listen to his composition for Talat in Jahanara: Phir Wohi Sham Wohi Gam. This was in 1964 and Rafi was at his peak, but MM gave the song to Talat. When you get tired of listening to your loRD’s catchy songs, listen to this Talat gem and you will realize that RD, however talented he was, could never compose a ghazal like MM; the best he can offer is Hume tumse pyar kitna. And stop broadcasting to the world that your loRD composed Tumjo mil gaye ho; just because a few arrangers from RD’s stable played the music in that song does not mean it was composed by him. The problem with your loRD was that though he came in close proximity with Rafi at a young age (having ghost composed Sar jo zara takraya and having played the tabla in Hum bekhudi mein tumko pukare), he never appreciated the dimensions Rafi could have added to his oeuvre.

    For Madan Mohan, the No. 1 male singer was Rafi. He, unlike LP, never buckled under pressure during the 70s. I’d go so far as to say that most of the gems that Rafi delivered in the post-Gambler era were composed by Madan Mohan. And guys like you keep distorting facts. I am listing just a few songs from the MM-Rafi combination below; listen to them and you’ll realize that your favourite composer-singer duo could never even come close to creating these (and I mean this kind of songs).

    1. Meri awaaz suno, pyar ka raaz suno
    2. Tumhari zulf ke saayen mein sham kar lunga
    3. Tujhe kya sunayoon main dilruba (adapted from Talat’s Yeh hawa yeh raat yeh chandni)
    4. Main ye soch kar
    5. Kar chale hum fiza
    6. Ek hassen sham ko dil mera kho gaya
    7. Tum jo mil gaye ho

    You could also try Jaidev’s Kabhi khud pe kabhi halat pe, Khayyam’s Jaane kya dhoondti rahati hai aankhe or Ravi’s Chaudvin ka chand ho. Then you will realize why even those who specialize in that genre, such as Jagjit Singh and Pankaj Udhas, let alone RD-Kishore, fall behind.

    The old man respected Khayyam and Madan Mohan, and that is why you see such beauties as Hum bekhudi mein tumke pukare (Jaidev helped him on this one), Kahin bekhayal hokar and Din dhal jaye. The truth is that your loRD will never be able to measure up to his dad, and part of that reason is his disdain for ROFI. I know this is a bitter pill for you to swallow.

  96. 96
    Abhisek Says:

    Undoubtedly Kishore Kumar is far ahead than Rafi.Zeenath,are you mad?Yesudas is like a dust in front of giant Kishoreda.

  97. 97
    Abhisek Says:

    http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/prodigy/299/
    Look at this website,here it is clearly written that Kishore Kumar is the greatest singer of all times.

  98. 98
    Abhisek Says:

    Eternal Dreams to scout for singing talent every year

    Indiantelevision.com Team

    (8 August 2002 5:00 pm)

    MUMBAI: Eternal Dreams, a media company promoted by Sapna Chaturvedi, is seeking to honour bards.

    And it is doing it in memory of India’s greatest singer ever, the eternal Kishore Kumar. The company, which has been slowly but surely working on turning around the Rathikant Basu promoted Tara Marathi and Bengali, has initiated the Kishore Kumar Award – which will honour two singing talents each year: one for established singers and the other for a new voice who can recreate the magic of the Maestro, Kishore Kumar.

    Some permanent members of the jury who will judge the entries include: Amit Kumar, Kishan Kumar of T Series, Ratan Jain of Venus, Kumar S Taurani of Tips, Ekta Kapoor of Balaji Telefilms, Praveen Shah of Time and music directors Dabboo Malik and Himesh Reshammiya. Apart from these, there will be other members who will be decided each year prior to the selections.

    Chaturvedi says Eternal Dreams will handle the winners’ careers for six months. “We hope to present the Indian music industry with some exceptional talents in the coming years,”she adds. The award was unveiled by film star Jeetendra at a musical extravaganza based on the songs of Kishoreda last weekend. Among the singers who turned up and crooned at no cost included Kumar Sanu, Vinod Rathod, Babul Supriyo, Shaan and Dabboo Malik. Making his debut on stage was Kishore Kumar’s youngest son Sumeet Kumar, who enthralled the audience with his promising performance.

    Balaji Telefilms chairman Jeetendra Kappor (extreme left) and Eternal Dreams MD Sapna Chaturvedi (extreme right) at the musical extravaganza last weekend

    The surprise discovery of the evening, however, was Pankaj Chaturvedi, a singer who wears two hats with the ease of a magician. Pankaj who evoked nostalgic memories of Kishoreda with the best of his memorable numbers is also the CEO of Baskin Robbins (South Asia), the largest international ice cream chain in India.

    The show, a tribute to Kishore Kumar, is to be aired on DD Metro and has the backing of Tide detergent, Dabur and Win 94.6 with Regent Hotels being the hospitality partner.

    READ THIS ARTICLE ,HERE IT IS CLEARLY WRITTEN THAT KISHORE KUMAR IS THE GREATEST SINGER OF ALL TIMES.

  99. 99
    Abhisek Says:

    http://www.indiantelevision.com/headlines/y2k2/aug/aug42.htm
    HERE IS THE LINK OF THE ABOVE ARTICLE,YOU CAN CHECK.

  100. 100
    Abhisek Says:

    Kishoreda is the all time greatest singer and genius,comic hero of India.

  101. 101
    P. Haldar Says:

    Correction (2nd last sentence, first paragraph of my previous email):

    I meant:

    But why say MM used Kishore more?

  102. 102
    rajeev banerjee Says:

    well kishoreda is the best singer beyond the shadow of any doubt!!!!!!

  103. 103
    jayanta Says:

    I dont need to list down songs list to increase by post lenght sir, because everyone knows that kk had given a huge no. ofhits compared to very few of rafi’s during the 70′s, where the former completely outsmashed the latter.
    You got me wrong…i m not distorting fatcs..its u who is trying to do so..and also biasing others..i implied mm used kk moe often than he did during the 60′s, (remeber mm has given some great gems for kk to render them during the 50′s..if u want them i may list down), but i m notcomparing the same percentage of songs or hits which kk produced out of mm as compared to rafi…itsthe nature of the songs and how beautifully kk sang the no.s is to be kept in mind!…and even rafihad a competition earleir as he had to fight out with mana and talat during the early periods to cement his position!.rafi is a brilliant singer no doubt about that..but somehow manna dey is far ahead of him if classical singing is concerned!
    and for your info, Rd-kk will never fall behind no matter what hits of rafi u mention and under which md…its more or less a super combo which rocked the HFM during the 70′s and after that…the pair produced some real magical nos which no one except rd could have composed..and which no one other than kk could have sung!.
    u go all facts wrong..and u r trying to do coctail sd with rd’s method of singing arangement!…sd used to bring folk song tunes most times into his songs which were great..and rd westernised the environment which was pretty successfull!…and for your info…sdb has used kk the most arnd 120 songs as compared to rafi-sd ‘s 90 odd!..and most of them came from dev anand movies..!..and abt rafi..i fel he is a bit underated thats all..
    MM more or less alone was loyal to rafi right throughout..yet he had to give kk some of his best compositions…like that in parwana ‘simti si sharmayi si’…the film also had a rafi-kk duet..and yet like most rafi–kk duets..its kk who excelled over rafi!
    dont get biased…do u mean to say that rafi-mm combo was superior than rkk-sdb or kk-rd???…no chance…the latest two combo wins anyday man!!

  104. 104
    Piyush Says:

    JUST LISTEN TO TUM BIN JAAON KAHAN KE DUNIYA ME AAKE…..

    ANY QUESTIONS??

  105. 105
    binu nair Says:

    Rightly said Mr. Halder .
    S.D. BURMAN THE old patriarch was a gem of a composer. His
    son ruined music to a great extent AFTER SHOWING GREAT
    P R O M I S E.
    His films failed by the dozen and he hit the bottle and also
    lost big banner films.
    What RDB was trying to prove? A GREAT TALENT WASTED…..

    Why was he against ROFI who was less than 50 years when
    RDB came galloping. How many MUSIC LOVERS RDB
    ALIENATE – by not taking RAFI VOCALS.

    Did success go into his head or were his limitations exposed by
    the great compositions of Laxmikant Pyarelal and Kalyanji
    Anandji team….
    Were music lovers tired of the repetitive stuff doled out by
    Kishore – Asha duo , RDB S main singers?
    Did the MANGESHKARS PUSH RAFI SAAB TO THE WALL as
    inside reports say due to RAFIS diferences with Lata over the
    royalty issues…
    R.D.B DID BRING BACK RAFI DUE TO MARKET REASONS IN
    THE LATE SEVENTIES….. WITH great results.
    So the question is : How many lovely numbers music lovers
    lost from the great RDB-RAFI stable in the early seventies

    binu binus2000@hotmail.com

  106. 106
    myk Says:

    Also, the theory that KK decided to “voluntarily” choose acting instead of singing is hilarious. Kishore could not get a big break in the 50′s which is why he resorted to concentrate on acting. The only MD who stood by him at this time was SDB and if he did sing for others it was in his own films (eg. SJ films, Shararat, New Dehli etc.). In the late sixties he was about to go back home when RD told him to stay, as said by RD in one of his Jamaila interviews, and the rest is history. After that he showed that he was a great singer. This has nothing to do with him concentrating on singing after and concentrating on acting before, the theory holds no water, and is bogus to say the least. Kishore was a very talented singer, but to compare him to Rafi is not a fair comparision, Rafi can only be compared with himself.

    P. Haldar, “Tum Jo Mil Gaye Ho” is a masterpiece, it is said that after the song Rafi complimented Kersi Lord on the arrangements he did for this composition, the guitar was played by Bhupinder, both the musicians were regulars in the RDB camp.

  107. 107
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    Very true Mr. P. Haldar, I agree cent percent with you.

  108. 108
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    Hello Debjyoti, ask any common people and experts, 99% will say you have no knowledge of music……….

  109. 109
    Mehtab Says:

    Respected Music Lovers,
    I salute all of you. But it is the matter of great sorrow that when Rafi Sahib and Kishore Da is still singing together “Bane Chahe Dushman Zamana Hamara, Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara” then why we are wasting our time on this baseless debate. Both these singers were/are the greatest. However, Rafi sahib was the Senior to Kishore Da, it is the ground reality. Senior always remains senior. We should pay only homage or tributes to such artists and we should not bring forward our own egos on the behest of these great playback singers. We must make happy the souls of these departed pillar singers of the Bollywood. Please don’t be fool thyselves. Such type of discussion ‘ll not bear any fruits.
    We should say Rafi Sahib Zindabad, Kishore Da Zindabad. That’s all.
    –MEHTAB, Chandigarh (India) +919815703226, E-mail : mehtabmasih@yahoo.co.in

  110. 110
    unknow Says:

    Dear Debjyoti
    if u ask people from KK family they will never say 99% that KK is batter than Mohd Rafi,I think u r mixing between mohd Rafi and KK!!!!! or u will nevrt that,if u as Amit Kummar he will never say that.
    PLZ GIVE ONE BIG NAME WHO SAID THST HE BECAME FAMOUS BOZ OF KK,~
    plz anwer as u been asked?

  111. 111
    zeenath Says:

    there is no point in making comparison between rafi and kk.rafi is very much ahead with his superb songs. kk is an extended version of the likes of sailendra singh.but rafi was/is constant.if at all a comparisin is possible it should be between rafi and the great jesudas,who possess asweet and clear voice.he himself is the greatest rafi fan.when hearing some of his songs i am forced to think that even rafi could not sing like that.we can even identify the actor by listening to his song.a great real play back singer.his hindi songs are suprb.inthe midst of battle between rafi fans and kkfans everybody willfully ignores him only because he is not a hindi singer

  112. 112
    Sudip Says:

    Adding to P. Halder’s list with my favorite Rafi-MM songs:
    8. Main nigahen tere chehre se hatayoon kaise (Aap Ki parchhaiyan)
    9. Kiski Yaad mein duniya ko hai bhulaye huye (Jahan Ara)
    10. Baad Muddat ke yeh ghadi (Jahan Ara)
    11. Barbad-E-Mohabbat Ki Dua (Laila Majnu)
    12. Zameen se humen aasman tak (Adalat)

    I also like the “Neela Akaash” songs, but they will be second rung.

    I think the Haqeeqat quadret “Hoke Majboor Mujhe” is a glaring proof of why Rafi was way above others. Each of the other singers (Manna, Talat and Bhupinder) were great in their own right but the singer who stands out is Rafi.

  113. 113
    Sudip Says:

    Jayanta:
    You said: “dont get biased…do u mean to say that rafi-mm combo was superior than rkk-sdb or kk-rd???…no chance…the latest two combo wins anyday man!!”

    –I will not compare rafi-mm versus kk-sdb. I will compare kk-sdb with rafi-sdb only. For every kk-sdb good song I will mention 2 rafi-sdb great numbers. It is a challenge.
    –Secondly, why are we quoting bogus orkut or 99% junta numbers. There are similar bogus numbers in favour of Rafi too (http://www.tezaa.com/view/kishore_kumar_vs_mohammed_rafi_who_is_a_better_singer)

    –Why are we debating?? The musical PUNDITS of Outlook India have already spelt out the verdict. Some of the judges included Kishore loyalists like Sanu, Abhijeet as well. In the same poll, 5 out of top 20 songs of all time were Rafi’s..And Rafi did not have to resort to publicity frills and gizmos like “eccentric genius” blah, blah to earn that…

  114. 114
    A S MURTY Says:

    have seen only a few of the above comments. Did not feel like going through the rest. NO COMMENTS as far as the Versus thing is concerned. Rafi is RAFI and Kishore is KISHORE. We enjoy songs by both these singers. Let us not compare.

  115. 115
    P. Haldar Says:

    Jayanta, I’m not going to discuss the MM-Rafi combo here because that requires a special set of ears. I’ve maintained time and again that RD-KK was a special combination; they were made for one another. What I objected to was what you said about MM switching more and more to Kishore. The truth is that MM never switched. Just a couple of songs here and there for Kishore does not mean much. Rafi sang more than 100 songs for your loRD, but we can still ignore them. For Rafi, take out Naushad and SJ, you’ll have SD and OP. Take all these four out, you will still have Madan Mohan and LP. Take all these six out, you’ll have Roshan and KA. Now let’s focus only on SD; I know the media keeps talking about SD-Kishore all the time. They produced some wonderful tunes, no doubt about it. But are you sure that SD-KK was better than SD-Rafi? I’ll just list 10 compositions of SD for Rafi and I’ll let you judge for yourself.

    1. Yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaye to kya hai (Pyasa)
    2. Jinhe naaz hai Hind par o kahan hai (Pyasa)
    3. Dekhi zamane ki yaari (Kagaz ke Phool)
    4. Hum bekhudi mein tumko pukare chale gaye (Kala Pani)
    5. Saathi na koi manzil (Bambai ka Babu)
    6. Dil ka bhanwar kare pukar (Tere Ghar ke Samne)
    7. Nache man more magan dhikna dhiki dhiki (Meri Surat Teri Aankhen)
    8. Din dhal jaye (Guide)
    9. Tere mere sapne (Guide)
    10. Mera man tera pyasa (Gambler)

    I can list 10 more but for the time being these should suffice. Why Kishore, has any singer sung such a variety of high-class songs for any composer? If you want ghazals, select nos. 4 and 8. If you want soft romantic songs, select 9 and 10. If you want an intoxicating feel with the voice melting into the sound of a flute, select 6. If you are in the mood for a classical song, select 7; the tabla accompaniment was by Pt. Santa Prasad and you’ll find out how Rafi’s voice deftly does jugalbandi with the tabla. If you are in a blue mood, listen to 4 and 5. If you want songs that no other singer dare tread, select 1, 2 or 3. And I haven’t even listed “Khoya khoya chand”, the song that gave Dev his debonair image. Also, I haven’t included the numerous duets Rafi sung with Lata, Geeta and Asha, an art that the old man specialized in. But I’d recommend one from MSTA: Tere bina sooni nayan hamare.

    As regards classical songs, you are wrong about Manna being better than Rafi. In my ranking I would put Manna a close second, followed by Lata and Asha. Remember “Madhuban mein radhika nache re,” the most celebrated classical song from Hindi films? How about “Man tadpat hari darshan ko aaj”, the best exposition of Malkhauns to date? If you like SJ, try “Radhike tu ne bansri churayi”. This song for whatever reason didn’t get the fame it deserved; it’s a wonderful composition and see how easily Rafi glides through the difficult notes and still maintains his vocal quality. If you like OP, try “Anchal mein saja lena kaliya”; this song took even someone of the stature of Bade Ghulam Ali Khan by surprise. And if you ever heard Rafi at a concert singing “O duniya ke raakhwale” you’d have marvelled at how he used to deliver the “Mahal udas aur galiya sooni” part; I call this a song within a song, composed by Rafi himself to hit your heart with such a force that tears will come out in a second.

    Rafi is the “ustadon ke ustad”. Sudhu sudhu torko kore ki laabh?

  116. 116
    jayanta Says:

    RDB Kk folp..cuumon u must be joking!…and rdb’s talent wasted!..sdb’s son wasted everythng?..are u living in this wolrd??..really???
    a music director after performing and producing immense hits and going thorugh ahell lot of success is bound to get bogged down sometimes..no greta ppl can remain at the top all the time..sumtimes or the other they are ound to go through the linear patch!..wich rdb did during the 80′s..still folowed it with hitsloke heralal pannalal…sitamgar etc etc!
    kk extended version of shailendra?..tell me how much do u know at shailendra!…u hv no idea at all!..kk rules forever…rafi was brillant during the 60′s…but y dont u answer the straight forward question y most of the mds prefferred kk to rafu dirung the 70′s,…and y kk got more success thanr afi durign the 70′s??….kk was more of an actor..than a singer during the 50′s..and 60′s..lot of hit films accompanied by some b-grade films were there…yet singing was his second liking..and everyone eventhe greats lata,.asha..manna,sdb..to big b ..everyone has admitted that..and the interviews of which i have!…so thats cleared!
    myk..dont get biaed..b/w..y r u hiding ur name???…anyways..rafi cant reach the heights kk reached during the 70s’..and still now!..

    how much do u know abt kk’s films and hits dueing the 70′s..tell me?…and u toldthat only sdb was instrumental in letting kk to sing his sogs and no one else…not at all!..even SC,Ramchandra..o.p.nayyar,sc used kk often but to a lesser extent than rafi!…that fact that no mds other than sdb preffered kkduring the 60s”,is absoultely illogical..try to get ur facts clear!
    y not rafi fans acept the fact tha rafi was at the top during the 60′s..but lost out to kishore during the 70s!

  117. 117
    Mehtab Says:

    Respected Music Lovers, Namaskar!
    I want to tell the so-called fans of Kishore Da that Kishore Da had displayed only one photograph in his bungalow. The photograph was none other than the Great Mohd. Rafi. Another fact that Mohd. Rafi sahib was used to address Kishore Da as a tiger. According to Rafi Sahib that Kishore Da had such natural God-given grains in his throat that couldn’t be imitated. So please, all the music lovers should keep normalcy in their minds. Please shut-off this debate. Your claims shall never reach anywhere. Be brave and be prudent also. Please accept my humble appeal.

    –MEHTAB, Chandigarh (India) +919815703226, E-mail : mehtabmasih@yahoo.co.in

  118. 118
    binu nair Says:

    three points here.
    1. I agree with you Mehtabh ji and we ought to SALUTE RAFI AND
    KISHORE DA for their contributions.
    2. Zeenath : Yesudas is the finest singer after Rafi saab. Have met
    him couple of times. He failed in the diction part in most of the
    songs except Chitchor and Rajnigandha where the composers
    brought out the best in him. Pl. compare his diction with Rafi
    who was the finest in the business. Yesudas considers Rafi
    saab as his guru and the best -like 98% KERALITES.
    3. THIS topic discussion got the best and maximum INPUTS.
    Can we now STOP THIS BUSINESS OF COMPARISON between
    two great singers. And , if at all can we all have a healthy
    discussion and respect the singers of YORE…

  119. 119
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    Mohammed Rafi Saheb is the best singer, no one can be compared to this legend, KK was just ok.

  120. 120
    Abhisek Says:

    Undoubtedly,Kishoreda is the greatest singer of all times,much much more popular than Rafi.LONG LIVE KISHORE KUMAR THE GREATEST GENIUS.

  121. 121
    abhishek Says:

    Though Md. Rafi was a great singer, but when the question comes who is the best male playback singer, it is only Kishoreda who rules the first position. There are many great male singers such as Md. Rafi, Manna Dey, Mukesh & many more but in the field of playback Kishoreda is simply brilliant whose voice befits each & every individual & holds a much higher position than the rest. A voice which is still rocking in the minds of this generation, a voice which can be moulded to any type according to need of the song, a voice which carries all the emotions with it from the depth of the heart & touches the same……….It is one & only Kishoreda’s voice which stands much ahead of the others. He is simply the best out of the best.

  122. 122
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    Only a couple of people say KK is popular, but 90% praise Rafi Saheb only on this KK site! Very strange but true!!

  123. 123
    myk Says:

    Jayanta,

    Please do not distort facts, I have read your posts, many of the facts are totally opposite of the truth. Let’s take your points one by one:

    You mention KK’s second liking in the 50′s and 60′s was to sing. Can you tell me why Kishore came to Mumbai in the first place ?. He came to be a singer, he wanted to sing, that was his passion, he is admitted that many a times in his interviews. He only got into acting because he could not receive a break in singing, no MD besides SDB was willing to give him a chance. He did not come to Mumbai to become an actor, if he wanted to become an actor he probably would have stayed in Khandwa.

    If you read what I stated earlier, I had mentioned that if MD’s like OPN and SJ etc. took him, is due to his own films, not for any other actor. The only actor he playbacked for outside of himself at that time was Dev Anand. This is majority of the times, he may have sung for RK or others earlier on but most of the time it was Dev and under SDB. He did not voluntarily choose to act, nor did he take himself out of the race, he was forced to, and even if he was in the race, he would not stand a chance to Rafi at that time. You mention how MD’s like Salil used him, again please check if Kishore is acting in the film himself and you will come to your answer. Early on in the 50′s composers like Roshan and CR may have taken him, but for very few songs, he was hardly considered a top notch singer in the 50′s and 60′s.

    By the way, if you knew about Kishore’s films, you would not be asking me how much I know. A good number of KK’s films did not do well even though he may have acted with top grade heroines in some of his films, most were B-grade ventures.

    The problem with some people is that instead of acknowledging the truth, they mix Kishore’s acting with him not getting a break to sing. The argument put forward is because KK could not compete with Rafi or Mukesh etc. in the 50′s and 60′s is because he chose to act. Now why would he choose to act if he came to Mumbai to become a singer ?. Please do answer that question. Also, why did Kishore want to go back to his home town in the late 60′s ?. The reason is because he was not getting a chance to sing in films the way he wanted to. Please do not distort facts, nor make up excuses such as KK was busy with acting etc. Yes he was busy, because he wasn’t getting a break to sing and its purely logical and not illogical as you pointed out. The more you try to defend Kishore in the 50′s and 60′s, the more off track it gets.

    Coming to your point about majority of MD’s using KK in the 70′s. Let’s pinpoint it one by one. LP mostly used Rafi and yet still used Kishore, KA made a balance, Rajesh Roshan maintained a balance, for Usha Khanna, Madan Mohan and Ravi it was Rafi more than KK, for newcomers such as Mandhir Jatin, Manas Mukherjee, Anu Malik, they all went to Rafi before they eventually moved on to Kishore because Rafi passed away. The only MD’s tht favoured KK were the Burmans and Bappi Lahiri, and that is understandable. Ravindra Jain you could say maintained a balance although Rafi and Yesudas were his favourites. So now tell me who are the majority of MD’s that used KK in the 70′s ?.

    Mind you, Kishore was the most successful for about four years in the 70′s, other than that you could say it was even between Rafi and KK, with Rafi having more success in the latter part of the decade, especially 79 and 80. Check out the Binaca Geetmala Records, from 79-81 it was totally Rafi everywhere, no sight of any other singer on the radio, the comeback was complete and in full gear until Khuda took him away from us.

    The real impact of Kishore getting far away from every singer including Rafi in the brief period was because Rafi did not sing for 8 months in 1971. Ofcourse Kishore’s time had come, and this does not take away from his talent as a singer, but it was not Aradhana that did the trick, it was the absence or leave which was the main reason.

    Mr. Haldar,

    What are your views on Rafi in the 70′s ?. I think he had many great songs during this period. It is the media that creates myths that he was not up to the mark, leaving aside the 77-80 period how about 70-76, he had many great songs in this time.

    Ironically, many of RD’s best songs during the 70′s are by Rafi, Churaliya Hai Tumne, Kya Hua Tera Vaada, Maine Poocha Chand Se, Gulaabi Aankhen and the list can go on.

  124. 124
    P. Haldar Says:

    Hi myk, I really appreciate your knowledge of musicians. I’ve seen both Kersi Lord and Bhupi on stage. I’ve also seen Manohari Singh (of Basu-Manohari fame), probably the best sax player of all time. The sax sounds you hear in the Guide songs are all from that man. It’s reported that Salil brought him from Kolkata and then he became a regular in the SD camp (I think he played the flute in Salil’s classic “O sajna barkha bahar aayee”). Always used to accompany RD along with Kersi for concerts. Manohari also played for OP in quite a few songs, the most memorable being Rafi’s “Hai duniya usiki zamana usika” from Kashmir ki Kali. But I am curious to find out who played the flute in Rafi’s “Dil ka bhanwar kare pukar”; sounds like Manohari but can’t be fully sure. Our Chhote Nawab played the mouth organ for the Dosti songs, and Kolkata’s Milan Gupta played it for the background score.

  125. 125
    Salil Says:

    For a person who grew up listening vividh bharti for hours daily(due to dad’s profession as a voice artiste) i had listened to all rafi sahab,mukesh and kishoreda at a very early age. And till this day i have never wavered from my opinion tht Kishoreda was the best not only among his peers but also across all generations..
    Such was the power of kishoreda’s singing tht at the age of 5 years i had memorized most of his songs,first one being “Roop tera mastana”..
    Agreed he didnt get ne formal training and tht makes him even more special and beyond compare.
    And if doubts still persist then ppl plz listen to “roop tera mastana”,”dil kya kare”,”o mere dil ke chain”,”wada tera wada”,”meri bheegi bheegi si” to name a few and u shall b enlightened .. !!
    kishore da lives forever

  126. 126
    binu nair Says:

    Rafi saab is the t a n s e n – of music.

    And for centuries, music lovers will cherish his songs, character
    and humility.

    Such an individual can take birth only between many centuries.

    My good fortune that I heard r a f i saab from close quarters on
    two occassion.

    My good fortune that I met the great Kishore da at abu dhabi,
    the UAE capitol for 2 minutes – just before a fun rolled concert..

    We are all blessed to have such great singers with us – who visited
    this planet – and will never die…..
    binu nair

    binus2000@hotmail.com

  127. 127
    Robin Says:

    If someone who has not heard a single Rafi or Kishore song in life goes through the above comments, he/she will be able to figure out who the better singer is.

    On one side (Rafi) are comments with analysis, logic and reference to classic numbers.

    On the other side (KK) are comments with emotion completely devoid of any analysis and reference to crappy songs (“lare lappa songs” as they say in Bengali).

  128. 128
    jayanta Says:

    myk..u r again distorting facts altogetherand with no good effect!..kishore ruled for four yrs??..commom even the die hardest rafi fans wouldnt have givejn such biased opinion!..after aradhana it was kishore all the way!..no one surpassd him…2 rafi hits during that time was followed and buried by 10 hits of kk!…comprehensively!..dont say sumthing like rafi made a comeback..!not at all!..even the intervies depicting lata /asha /manna etce tc says kishore da ws the ebst..’unke jaisa singer aaj tak paida nahin hua’…then what great opinions do u need!…and u r wrong agaib..check out the facts.LP has given kk more of his compositions than rafi!..and most of then came during post aradhana!..MM used to use kk a lot during the 50s..and also post aradhana!..and as per sdb…his fav sinegr was also kishore all the way..although sdb chose rafi a lot during the 50!
    rafi sab wud have taken a 1000 yrs to come near the calibre of manna dey! if classical singing is considered then manna dey is way way ahead of rafi!..

  129. 129
    zeenath Says:

    i frequently hear hindi songs.while iam travelling imostly prefer kk songs.it gives me joy and enjoiment.moreover his sound has a special power to conqer all other sounds emnating from the suroundings.at home i prefer rafi -gives me peace of mind -trianquility-happiness.

  130. 130
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    Hi myk, a very nice comment by you, I appreciate it. So nicely explained.

  131. 131
    unknow Says:

    kk was more popular and famous than Mohd Rafi!!!!!!!!!!???if u r saying jokes plz don’t………If u r saying that KK was at top from 1970 to 1976 u r so wrong,when Late ji,Asha ji RD,SD most of MD they speak about KK jokes or he should be paid before to sing but when they speak about Mohd rafi we know what they say…….
    If am popular it not mean that i am the best.
    some one speak that kk singed these songs so will i agree with him but if we speak best 20 all time hit songs went to only Mohd rafi.
    There was Madan Mohan he was been force to use KK but he said that he will work in the flim if Mohd rafi not sing in it.
    There was OP N,SJ and SD who used Mohd Rafi voice on KK..if I am not wrong when they asked SJ why they used Mohd Raf on KK he answer that is not KK cup of tea….
    Whey Mohd Rafi singed for Shammi Kapoor there was no other he need to sing for him but Rajesh Khanna he used Mohd Rafi and all songs singed by Mohd Rafi are hit.

  132. 132
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    Rafi Saheb’s ‘Tum bin jaoon kahan…’ is a better version than of KK, Rafi Saheb’s version has sweetness, melody, sung so nicely for Shashi Kapoor.

  133. 133
    P. Haldar Says:

    Continuting on the remark made by myk, let me point out to Kishore fans not to make statements like “Rafi was swept aside in the 70s” or “Rafi was king only in the 50s and 60s, but after that, it was Kishore all the way”. As I’ve said time and again, each one of us is entitled to our opinions — there is always some subjectivity involved — but please do not distort the facts. At the time of Rafi’s death, 10 out of the 16 songs being played at Binaca Geetmala were his; please remember those days that progam was the main yardstick of popularity. The other thing to note is that RD, even in big-banner films like Shaan, were giving most of the songs to Rafi. Why do you think he was doing that? The reason is simple — it was just the market forces. In Zamane ko Dikhana Hai, Rafi got the main song “Puchho na yaar kya hua” and probably after that he died, otherwise I doubt Nasir Hussain would have asked Shailendra Singh to sing rest of the songs. LP was happy to make Rafi lip-synch for Amitabh in Naseeb and others were also doing the same.

    Despite his growing popularity, I wouldn’t still say that Rafi had pulled ahead of Kishore in 1980. During the 1977-80 period, both were at the top; there was no clear winner. But knowing Rafi, who ruled like a monarch in the 50s and 60s, I think he would have slowly pulled ahead of Kishore in the 80s (this is just my opinion). Other than the fact that all the big banners wanted to sign him, there is another factor: LP was getting ahead of RD. Laxmi would start using his “pitri-saman” Rafi for entire scores and gradually RD would have been forced to follow suit. As I’ve said before, RD should have kept this weapon in his arsenal; he was a multi-dimensional talent but got restricted in his compositional orbit by his over-dependence on Kishore. Why not give some of his folksy compositions to his “Ni sultana re” Rafi? He was slowly coming around to that point of view but it is our misfortune that Rafi left us prematurely. Listen to Rafi’s “Poocho na yaar kya hua” in ZKDH and the way he starts (Chak chak chakah chakah cha).

    I want to point out to the Burman fans one more thing: whenever Rafi got a fair chance to deliver under their batons in the 70s, he did. If you consider the senior Burman, Rafi produced hits in Talash, IPZN and Abhiman. Look at Abhiman; he had only one duet but that remains the most enduring one. For the younger Burman, consider YKB; one duet with Kishore and one duet with Asha. The latter became one of the greatest hits of all time. Fast forward to HKKN and you have Kishore and Rafi sharing the songs. Do I have to remind you guys who came out on top? No, actually there is no need because it doesn’t mean much. There were many instances in the 60s when Manna’s or Mukesh’s songs were greater hits than Rafi’s in the same film; Waqt is a prime example where Manna’s “Aae mere zohra zabeen” was by far the biggest hit. So even though Rafi’s songs in HKKN or AAA were much bigger hits than Kishore’s, I wouldn’t say that Kishore was “swept aside” (like Kishore’s fans do from time to time).

    What all of us — both Kishore and Rafi fans — missed was a battle royale between the two greats in the 80s. Kishore had the advantage in that his heavier voice suited the reigning superstar more than Rafi’s. But Rafi had the momentum and that ever-dangerous Laxmi on his side.

    Where I’d differ from myk is the contention that Rafi lost his No. 1 place in the early 70s because he took a break. I know RAFIans would like to believe that but as someone who has followed his career even before I hit my teens, let me tell you something: Rafi never took a break. That man was a workaholic. He didn’t go to Haj or a world tour for the first time in 1970. If I remember correctly by that time he had completed more than 20 world tours! Producers, directors and actors used to wait for Rafi to return home, such was his dominance. What hit him more than Aradhana was those twin blasts: Amar Prem and Kati Patang. Make no mistake about it — it was Chhote Nawab who was responsible for Rafi’s downward slide in the early 70s.

    There is another interesting story I heard from someone who knows a lot about the film industry. I cannot vouch for its veracity but here’s how it goes. Raj Kapoor wanted a fresh voice for Rishi in Bobby but LP wanted Rafi to sing. Apparently, Shailendra Singh told an interviewer that LP would have given the songs to Rafi had he failed in the audition. And if that had happened, Rafi wouldn’t have had to wait for three more years to witness the reversal of fortunes. Imagine “Main shayar to nahin” in Rafi’s voice!

  134. 134
    unknow Says:

    Dear Sir,
    how they can say to Mohd Rafi to sing in Abhiman because if u look the story of the flim Lata ji was the winner and she singed better than KK(Bachchan),As said that flim Abhiman was one of mr bachchan best flims as a actor,who said that KK was at top from 1970 t0 1976?when Rishi Kapoor and flim said to Madan Mohan to use KK in flim Laila Majnu but Madan Mohan said no way plz put kk in these songs.
    Why u KK fans d don’t answer what asked?why it said that music born in late 1940′s was baby in 1950′s was young in 1960′s was old in 1970′s and died in 1980′s?if u r honest u will see only Mohd Rafi it,
    Dear KK fans please give one name if u take kk out from him u will not get anything from him?about Mohd Rafi said by them if there was no Mohd Rafi there was no O P Nayar,Naushand said Mohd Rafi was 50% in his Music,Shammi Kapoor said mohd Rafi was his voice…………………..

  135. 135
    Mast Mast Says:

    quote – # Hussein Sheikh Says:
    May 19th, 2007 at 11:28 pm

    Only a couple of people say KK is popular, but 90% praise Rafi Saheb only on this KK site! Very strange but true!! – unquote

    Couple of people – are couple of different people. 90% is one person posing as many. ;)

    Hussein bhai you should be amazed that a kk fan who created this site is actually approving all your messages. What do you say about that? :P That he is a Rafi fan? If so he is a great man. There you go agreeing that a KK fan is great. :)

  136. 136
    binu nair Says:

    Well analysed article.

    But shri Shakti Samanta said to a music buff : Rafi went to
    Haj or on a long holiday and Kishore Kumar reaped the harvest
    in Rafi saabs absence….
    Again, Rafi had already scaled the No. 1 position in 1980 by his
    melodious vocals and due to L.P being on top and on his side.

    binu nair binus2000@hotmail.com

  137. 137
    binu nair Says:

    Mohd Rafi was so much indispensible that composers used
    Rafi s vocals for Kishore Kumar in Bhagam Bhag, a duet :
    Humko yeh dhar hair; Man mora bhavra in RAAGINI :
    COMPOSER: O.P. NAYYAR ; AND IN FILM shararat : AJAB HAI
    DASTAN TERI : COMPOSER: SHANKAR JAIKISHAN.
    Rafi has sung for three generations of actors : the Kapoors,
    Prithviraj-Raj-Rishi Kapoor which is a world record.

    Kishore Kumar is a great all rounder liked by many. But
    when it comes to singing a n d melody there is only one master :
    MOHD RAFI .

    He is the BADSHAH, THE EMPEROR – FOR ANY TYPE OF SONGS,
    from Bhagwan to yahoo , Chahe koi muje junglee kahe…..

    And many many incomparable melodies.

    binu nair binus2000@hotmailo.com

  138. 138
    P. Haldar Says:

    Dear Hussein Sheikh, unknown and other RAFians,

    Please do not disrespect the memory of your idol by targeting Kishore. Rafi never said anything bad about anyone. The modest person that he was, he once said during his lean phase, “I’ve had a long reign; it’s someone else’s turn now”. Each of the greats — Manna, Mukesh, Kishore and Rafi — added new dimensions to the world of Hindi film music and we should all be happy about it. Let us thank Kishore’s fans and the administrator of this website to be their guests, and go back to our home site.

  139. 139
    unknow Says:

    DEAR Mast Mast,
    U people want to compare Sun light with Moon light If u ask a blind man he will know different between sun light and Moon light.thanks to mohd Rafi name only this top is over 133 msg,KK fans have no topic?I requet to Mohd Rafi fans plz don’t answer KK fans here,If u look to all topic in the site will see that only there few people they speak but when they tried to compare Mohd Rafi with KK,why we should answer them because KK fans have no answer for our Questions?
    To Mohd Rafi fans and kk fans wilcome to mohdrafi.com?
    Some said that why not SD used Mohd Rafi for only for one song in flim Abhiman but they don’t know the story of flim that KK lost fom Lata ji.
    !!!!!!!!kk was a good singer who copied KK they think they are better than KK but when u see the singer who copied Mohd Rafi they know how is Mohd Rafi great they never said that they are better than Mohd Rafi,
    This my last msg at KK site my answer will be at Mohd afi site to KK fans

  140. 140
    myk Says:

    P. Haldar,

    Very great analysis, I always enjoy reading your write-ups and appreciate your great knowledge.

    Coming to the story about Haj, I have heard this from several sources, although it may not be true now that I have heard it from you. I find it hard to believe that Rafi who produced many hits in 70-71 could only have one or two songs on the Top list of Binaca at that time compared to the rest of KK’s scores. Do you know the reason for this ?. What happened to his songs from Caravan, Mela, The Train, Aap Aaye Bahar Aaye etc. during that time. I read in an interview of Shakti Samantha that they wanted Rafi for Kati Patang but he was out of town so all the numbers went to Kishore and one to Mukesh. You mentioned that this score was also a factor in Kishore’s upswing in the early 70′s.

    In regards to his comeback on the charts, in the years 77 (Pardah Hai Pardah), 78 (Aadmi Musafir), 80 (Dafli Wale) and 81 (Chal Mere Bhai), Rafi had the top song for those years. From 77-79 Kishore may have had more songs in general but it wasn’t by much, so in this sense BOTH shared the top slot. In 1980 and 81, Rafi matched Kishore in the number of songs but Rafi also passed away in the middle of 1980, as well as had more songs on the charts during certain periods, so it is clear that in terms of the number game, Rafi had gained his numero Uno slot back. Let me also bring back the point I mentioned earlier that I had interacted with listeners of the BGM at the time, that from 79-81 when Sargam released, it was Rafi everywhere, and indeed he was King, so in my view he re-gained his position of numero uno. His domination at that time is legendary now, only a man of his talent would have come back in such a way. The momentum was clearly on his side at the time, its sad that he passed away because the 80′s would have been a totally different story.

    Coming to the films, from 76 starting with Laila Majnu, and 77-80 whenever Rafi dominated films, they did well. Adding to that, you mentioned the big budget films were mostly Rafi dominated, and Rafi passed away at the time so he could not complete ZKDH. Another interesting story, RDB had originally recorded Dukh Sukh Ki from Kudrat with Chandrashekar Gadgil. However the distributors asked why there was no Rafi song in the film, and I believe them along with Goldie Anand wanted and persuaded RD to record the same song in Rafi’s voice, and his version (not retained in the album, only in the film) was used as the crowd puller.

    Rafi actually never left as you pointed out, he was very much there from 72-76, producing chartbusters, even with Junior Burman. His comeback is associated with his songs coming back more on to the charts but it does not mean he left or stopped singing as it may sound.

    You mentioned another great point, Rafi getting the majority of the album. Even a composer such as Rajesh Roshan delivered two knockout albums, Aap Ke Deewane and Unees Bees with Rafi in 1980. I love RR’s albums in his early days, he is a very talented musician and made great use of both Rafi and KK. Rafi vibed with him very well. What are your views on him as well as his combination with Rafi ?.

    LP became number one at the start of the decade, eventually displacing SJ, and they along with RD had a battle royale in the 70′s. Although both did great I feel in the late seventies LP broke away. RD’s best phase was in the early seventies IMO, that was when he was at his creative best and peak, a good number of his songs were for B-grade films which is sad considering the songs he produced for them. LP were always consistent throughout the decade, and in order to match RD at his game, they balanced both Rafi and KK. Once the late seventies came around it was back to Rafi more than KK and then Rafi was used to devestating effect by LP as you mentioned. After HKSKN (Rafi-based), RDB could never repeat the same success until 1942 ALS, and the 80′s was a tough time for him. Even though he still received big budget films in the late 70′s-80′s and produced great songs with both KK and Rafi. Rafi’s exit just made things worse, and I am sure if he was alive at the time it would have made a difference to RD. He did realise his blunder in not using Rafi more, and when he did, he couldn’t do it for that long due to Rafi’s passing away.

    The Bobby story is interesting, I have also heard that somewhere, Bobby by Rafi would have been amazing. An interesting point, the tune for Hum Tum Ek Kamre was composed by Jaikishan, RK had all of SJ’s practice tunes on tape and was free to use them with other composers. It is ironic though that Rafi later on became Rishi Kapoor’s voice, the two matched eachother perfectly.

    P. Haldar, when you contact Mr. Nair, please contact me as well, I have given Mr. Nair my email address, it would be great to be in touch with you.

    Jayanta,

    If you fail to acknowledge Rafi’s greatness in the 70′s then that is your wish, no one is forcing you to accept anything. Kishore’s dominating period was from 71-75, in which no male singer was as successful as him. You cannot compare that with the two decades that Rafi ruled previously. Add to this, Rafi also made a comeback on to the charts in supposedly Kishore’s era, which is in itself a great thing. Both Rafi and Mukesh won awards during this time, something no singer was hardly able to do in Rafi’s domination for two decades, so please judge for yourself.

    In regards to LP using KK more than Rafi after Aradhana is again not the truth, I don’t know where you are getting your info from, but please do not distort facts. And MM using KK a lot in the 50′s beats me, his favourites were always Rafi and Talat, again wrong information. If he did use KK it was probably for KK’s own film. MM using KK more after Aradhana is again false, please do check your facts.

    Coming to SDB, yes Kishore has 120 songs compared to Rafi’s 90 odd, however have you noticed how many songs came from Kishore’s own films ?. If you take out Kishore’s own films under SDB, the two totals will be pretty even between KK and Rafi vis a vis SDB.

    The reason why both father and son SD and RD moved KK way in the 70′s was for a few reasons, one being KK’s popularity from Aradhana and the films after, both father and son felt that since KK had lost out in the 50′s and 60′s, here was a chance for him to get songs, and also RD’s chance at breaking away from his father as well as other composers, being different, aka not using Rafi, hence using Kishore. This does not have anything to do with KK’s singing talents being better than Rafi.

    As far as classical singing is concerned, Manna Dey himself has said that even though he was more trained in classical songs, Rafi could sing classical songs better than him because he was a better singer. If Manna was the better singer, I am sure composers would have chosen him over Rafi. As far as singing is concerned, you cannot compare anyone to Rafi.

    As for interviews, the majority of the times celebrities such as Lata, Manna Dey etc. have said Rafi is the greatest. Add to this the hundreds of musicians such as Yesudas, SPB, Jayachandran, many prominent HFM personalities, even the great Illayaraaja of the South, one of the best musicians India has ever seen as well as MSV have all vouched for Rafi as the greatest including the Outlook Poll by prominent celebrities. So there is no point in discussing one or two interviews mentioning KK when the majority is in favour of Rafi. As for Asha Bhosle she does not admit Rafi’s greatness even though she has sung her most duets with him, over 800, but it is understandable that she would mostly talk about Kishore, since RD was her husband.

  141. 141
    myk Says:

    Btw, in my first paragraph I was referring to the Binaca List of 1971 vis a vis Rafi’s hits in those films.

  142. 142
    myk Says:

    Also, Kishore’s dominating period was for pretty much four years either 71-75 or 72-76 however one wants to look at it.

  143. 143
    Sudip Says:

    Any idea why RD used Rafi for Rajesh Khanna in “The Train”? Wasn’t it post-Aradhana?

  144. 144
    Sudip Says:

    In this entire thread till now, I have held back my criticism about Kishore and RD, while displaying my preference for Rafi.

    But here is something that I can’t pardon Kishore and RD for. To me, RD, Bappi and the likes with the aid of Kishore Kumar murdered Bengali songs for good. Bengali songs in the 1950s to mid-70′s represented the soft romanticism of the Bengali bhadralok played on screen by Uttam, Soumitra, Subhendu.. Songs used to be soft and strong on lyrics.. For the Bengalis out here, rewind to Uttam hits in Pothey Holo Deri, Sankhabela, Nayika Sangbad, Deya Neya, Antony Firingi, Stree or Chowringee…Or the Soumitra starred Sat pakey badha, Monihaar, Pratham Kadam Phool…The melodies were soft and mellowed, the focus was on lyrics and tune.. Voices of Manna, Hemanta, Shyamal, Satinath, Dhananjoy used to represent the dhoti-clad bengali bhadralok, depicting bengali romanticism and intellegentia..

    Then came Kishore Kiumar, backed by RD and Bappi..This was the worst import that could have ever hit Bengal from Bombay.. Most of the Bollywood hits were “bengalicized” without any care for regional nuances or culture. So we saw Kishore humming “He he ha ha ha” in Bengali numbers, tunes completely contrarian to the soft bhadralok personality.

    Things started going out of control in the 1980s. Towards the period of Kishore’s death we witnessed juvenile lyrics like “(H)E(Y) amar gurudakhina”, “Eparey thakbo ami” or “Tomar barir samney diyey amar moron yatra” delevered in the rough Kishore open-throated style. The real funeral procession (“moron yatra”) was that of Bengali songs.. It only hastened the arrival of Sanu, Abhijeet, Udit who polluted it beyond recovery..

    Bengali songs will never be the same..

  145. 145
    myk Says:

    As P. Haldar mentioned, I would like to Thank the members of this forum for allowing us to participate in heathy discussions about Rafi and Kishore.

    Adding some more, it took Kishore 2-3 years after Aradhana to take the top spot by himself. If you look at the Rafi-KK stats for the years 1970-1980, in 1970 and 71, Rafi has sung more songs than Kishore, so you could say from about 72-76 before Laila Majnu released, it was Kishore who ruled the roost. Rafi’s comeback to the charts is generally said to have started around 76-77. However here is an excerpt from Raju Bharatan’s recent article on Rafi:

    “Still Rafi, by dint of sheer effort, had staged a comeback without parallel in the annals of the industry. A comeback beginning with Usha Khanna’s award-winning Teri Galiyon Mein in Hawas (1974).”

    So according to RB, Rafi coming back started around 1974. Anyways, charts do not mean anything when talking about singing talent, and even though no male singer has had as much success on music charts as Rafi has, he was always a class apart as a singer.

    Also, Rafi and Kishore have sung almost the same number of songs in the 70′s which is something interesting indeed.

    I will mention one composer who I think after RDB took the best out of Kishore and that is Rajesh Roshan. Whenever Kishore sang for RR, I think he sounded different, more softer, their songs together are great from films such as Julie, Des Pardes, Swami etc. Junior Roshan was responsible for many of Kishore’s hits from the mid 70′s and onwards.

  146. 146
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    Mast Mast, nothing special said by you…..

  147. 147
    myk Says:

    P. Haldar,

    I checked with a dear friend of mine who also a huge Rafi fan.

    The point that Rafi saab took a break from singing is authentic. It was after his Haj pilgrimage in 1971 where a maulvi told him that singing was ‘haram’ and he quit singing for that period of time, roughly 8 months. This was a crucial period and during the time he was out of town, the majority of songs went to KK.

    About your Bobby story, it is again true. Raj Kapoor wanted either Rafi or a new voice and Rafi could not record the songs because he was away. The songs were recorded sometime in 71, Bobby released in 72 or 73.

    As you pointed out, Main Shaayar To Nahin would have been wonders in Rafi’s voice.

    I would like to pose a question to Kishore fans as to why Raj Kapoor did not want to take Kishore for Bobby even when it was KK’s “peak” period ?.

  148. 148
    Mast Mast Says:

    Hussein bhai, you keep saying Bapan and some other guys are repeating themselves .. well you too are doing the same.

    Just a word for you. To them KK may be great as Rafi sahab is to you. Stop comparing the legends. They both have a special place in the hindi film music and we should accept them the way they are. Why is it that you guys can’t appreciate Rafi sahab without bringing in Kishore Kumar? Why is it not Mukesh, Manna Dey. They were no less than Kishore or others, right? If acc to you Rafi sahab is incomparable, then why are you bringing in Kishore Kumar at all? Does that make any sense to you?

    The article is more on the discussion about the feuds between the fans and not the legends.

  149. 149
    arpita Says:

    kishore da was the gr8est is the gr8est & will always b gr8 & this is the fact no matter what some people say & i cant understand if some people dont consider kishore da as great singer than what are they doing to this website This is only 4 kishore da fans

  150. 150
    P. Haldar Says:

    Jayanta,

    Here’s an excerpt from an article Manna Dey wrote in Anandabazar Patrika after Naushad’s death. I met the great man after a concert last year and requested him to translate his autobiography from Bengali into English. Hope he does, so that the non-Bengali audience can know more about him and his opinions. You don’t have to buy the book; go to a book store and flip through the pages and see whose pictures appear the most other than his.

    “Once some of my acquaintances from Kannada Radio wanted to interview Naushad saab and they asked me for my help. Naushad saab immediately agreed to my request. But the condition was that I would have to go to his house and have lunch with him. When I went, I found that lavish arrangements had been made; Muslims are famous for their hospitality. We chatted for a long time. With a smile on his face, he said, ‘Everyone asks me, who is a greater singer? Mohammed Rafi or Manna Dey?’ I smiled and replied, “Why don’t you tell them Rafi is a much better singer? I say that myself. That’s what I believe in my mind.’

    I am saying it again, our and everyone’s favourite Rafi, India’s best male voice of all time, could transcend to a different level because of the magic in Naushad’s tunes. I do not have the words to express my gratitude and respect to Naushad for that.”

  151. 151
    Debjyoti Says:

    Kishoreda is undoubtedly the greatest singer of all times.Rafi is far behind Kishoreda.

  152. 152
    P. Haldar Says:

    Hi myk, you must be right about the break that Rafi took from his singing. Amit Kumar said somewhere that around that time, Rafi had invited him and his dad for a homemade meal when they were visting London for a concert. Apparently, Kishore joked about being in Rafi’s chorus at one time. Knowing Rafi, he might have said, “The keys to the kingdom are yours,” the line that Saigal used on him when he was in his teens.

    You keep prodding me about the 70s but I’ll have to admit that my favourite Rafi songs are from the 50s and 60s (of course, there is Suhani raat dhal chuki from 1949). I am a bit old-fashioned that way; with Jai, SD, Madan Mohan and Roshan gone and with Naushad and OP losing their touch in the 1971-75 period, I am not sure whether Rafi could have produced the milestones that he was so used to producing in the 50s and the 60s. He would have ruled the charts, no doubt about that, but whether he could surpass the lofty standards that he himself had set, I’m not sure. Please note that musical tastes by then had shifted from “Paag me ghungroo bandh ke” (Naushad-Rafi) to “Paag ghungroo bandh ke Meera nache re” (Bappi-Kishore) and Rafi would have happily delivered whatever Bappi or the newer MDs wanted him to.

    From the 70s, if I have to pick any one solo of his, I would select “Tum jo mil gaye ho”. Madan Mohan had given him a couple of other great solos, including “Tumse kahoon ek baat” (Dastak) and “Yeh duniya yeh mehfil” (Heer Ranjha), and, of course, there were the Laila Majnu songs. I would also select Khayyam’s “Kahin ek masoom nazuk si larki” (Shankar Hussain) and LP’s “Dard-e-Dil dard-e-jigar” (Karz). Of course, there is SD’s “Mera man tera pyaasa” (Gambler) but the song that is often overooked is the superb “Mehbooba teri tasveer” (IPZN). And then there is SJ’s “Unke khayal aaye to aake chale gaye” (Lal Patthar). I have mentioned earlier some of RD’s songs from HKKN and Abdullah, but none of them measured up to “Tum ne mujhe dekha”. Frankly, with the possible exception of “Tum jo mil gaye ho”, I wouldn’t put any of the afore-mentioned songs in Rafi’s top 25. I am very, very picky when it comes to Rafi.

    I must confess that I don’t know much about the post-1980 period. When Rafi died, a part of me died; most often, I keep listening to the songs of the 50s and 60s. As far as Bengali songs are concerned, my tastes are similar to Sudip’s; listen mainly to Manna and Hemanta, but also to Lata and Asha. The elder sister had a very fruitful association with Salil and Hemanta, and the younger with Sudhin Dasgupta and, guess who? But Manna is my all-time favourite. If you ever get the chance, listen to his “Aami je jolsagor-ey” from Antony Firingi; the notes are somewhat similar to Rafi’s “Mere mehboob tujhe” and to this day haven’t been able to decide which one is the better of the two. The former is a little more pure, while in the latter, Rafi brings in his nuances for Rajendra Kumar.

  153. 153
    Debjyoti Says:

    Kishoreda’s dominating period was from 1969 to 1987,contrary to Rafi’s 1955-1968.On that time ,Kishoreda was more into acting.When he turned into singing more,he overtook all competitions.From 1955 to 1968,Rafi faced strong competition from Mukesh,Kishoreda,Talat.Hemant,Manna Dey.But from 1969 to 1987,Kishoreda was way ahead others.Kishoreda could modulate his voice to suit the actor,not Rafi.In spite of having so much other talents,like acting,directing,dancing,music compose,writing lyrics,painting,Kishoreda is the greatest singer of all.Rafi had a feminine voice,with no heroism,modulation and variety.Kishoreda is the greatest and most popular singer of all times.

  154. 154
    Robin Says:

    RAfi -feminine? You dont know anything about music. He is sweet and used to sing from the navel (read Anandji’s interview) unlike Sonu Nigam

    Kishore= “Ki shor” (shouting)

  155. 155
    binu nair Says:

    Someone out there has said a joke- that Kishore kumar
    became the No. one singer in 1968.
    Sir, Aradhana was released in 69. Its first two duets were
    sung by Rafi and Lata as S.D.BURMAN and the distributors wanted.
    S.D. BURMAN got sick and R.D. BURMAN BROUGHT IN
    KISHORE KUMAR. Kishore s time had come and we RAFI fans
    under STAND this. Pl. do not distort facts .. and …..
    Pl. stop dreaming as facts are indigestible often as they say
    minds can be jaundiced……

    Need I say more……

    binu nair mumbai binus2000@hotmail.com

  156. 156
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    Manna Dey said, Rafi Saheb was ahead of all singers, KK was just temporary fad….. watch on http://www.youtube what Manna Dey say on Rafi Saheb.

  157. 157
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    KK’s favourite singer was MOHAMMED RAFI SAHEB, the greatest of all…

  158. 158
    P. Haldar Says:

    Dear fellow RAFIans, a thought just crossed my mind. Wouldn’t Rofi saheb, if he were alive today, been very happy to see his fans — Kishore, Yesudas, S. P. Balasubramaniam, Udit, Sonu, Srikanta Acharya — have such large fan followings themselves? Never say anything bad about any of these singers because they are part of the same clan. The larger their fan following, the prouder we should all be.

  159. 159
    Sudip Says:

    THIS IS MY LAST POST UNLESS PROVOKED…

    First of all, a debate is a waste of time unless there is something to exchange and learn in the process. I do not think that I would be able to convince any KK fan to go the Rafi way, nor can they convince me to go the Kishore way.

    Secondly, I found that I am possibly debating with 20-25 year old fops with juvenile knowledge of music. So there is little to learn for me in this excahnge. In this entire thread no KK fan has come with any song that would enlighten me on KK (Honestly I think I have heard more KK songs than most KK fan out there anyway). In the bargain, I have spelt out my preferences. KK fans would do well to take my list and spare some time in listening to Rafi classics and see if they reverse (if not change) their opinion.

    That way I can take solace in the fact that I did not entirely waste my time and energy.

    Bye…

  160. 160
    myk Says:

    Hi P. Haldar,

    Thanks again for your views, I totally agree with you, Rafi set very high standards, in other words he set the benchmark for singing. I would love to hear the Bengali songs that you mentioned, I have heard only a few from the 60′s, others would be definitely be welcome.

    What are your views about Junior Roshan ?. Right now, I am into another aspect of his music, his duets. They were just amazing in the 70′s, for both Kishore and Rafi. He worked with the best lyricists at that time, Majrooh, Sahir, Gulzar etc, and produced one great soundtrack after the other. However in the 80′s he could not quite maintain his quality with the exception of a few albums here and there.

    One duet that stands out, I rank it as the best ever duet of Kishore-Lata-Rafi, ‘Kya Mausam Hai’ from Doosra Aadmi, it is a masterpiece, all three have done a fantastic job, and the music is excellent.

  161. 161
    myk Says:

    Actually ‘Kya Mausam Hai’ cannot be qualified as a duet, it involves three singers.

    Junior Roshan created an identity of his own, he had a great sense of orchestration, melody as well as rhythm. You can tell a RR composition from another song just by his trademark flair and punch. He had the opportunity to work with all the greats, Rafi, Lata, Kishore, Asha, even Mukesh (I believe he has some songs with him too).

  162. 162
    jayanta Says:

    kk ru;ed from 70′s tillthe end, no matter what u say!. after aradhana it was all kk, the few hits of rafi were buired and crushed under thousands of kk hits !..songs like pardaparda?..lol..few hits ike this doesnt prove the fact that rafi made a comeback!…nope his reign was brough to an end after aradhana!..songs like parda ye parda, dad e dilwas ncie but could not transcede the passing of time, that is y you here sons like om shanti on rated higher above than those!. ok u r telling that between77 to 80 rafi had more hits?..goshu must be joing..i challenge u list downthe hits of rafi..and i will list down that of kk during that period..rafi will fail miserably!
    yes, rafi saab was talented a great singer,..but uptil aradhana it was ok..and ppl like who with their biased views try to bring rafi’s influence during 70s’s which was noting as compared to what rafi produced during the 60′s!..and even befroehand during the initial periods rafi had to undergo tough competitions from manna,talat,hemant etc to cement his position!..kk on the otherhandmanaged everything..starting from acting,composing,script writing,singing,directing,producing and what else!
    long like kishoreda

  163. 163
    sachin Says:

    Jayanta;
    It is not about quantity, but about quality.
    Agreed Kishore sung volumes of junk. I do not even consider “Om Shanti Om” a song.
    In the whole 1980s show me one song of the calibre of “Tu is Tarah Se Meri Zindagi mein shamil hai” (Aap to aise na the). You may say “Sagar Kinare”-huh. That’s a classic for you?

  164. 164
    P. Haldar Says:

    Hi myk, like Sudip I think I should make a graceful exit from this site. There is no point in arguing with people who keep repeating the same lines, mostly without any basis.

    As far as junior Roshan is concerned, he must be good. I’ve heard the duets from Julie and Kala Patthar; they are good. As I’ve said before, I haven’t followed the post-1980 period closely, so can’t comment on it much. But if you focus on duets only, the masters of the game are SD, SJ, OP, RD and LP. For SD, the combinations to look for are Rafi-Geeta, Rafi-Lata, Rafi-Asha, Kishore-Asha and Kishore-Lata. For OP, it’s Rafi-Geeta and Rafi-Asha. For SJ, it’s more varied: Manna-Lata, Mukesh-Lata, Rafi-Lata and some Rafi-Suman. For RD it’s mostly Kishore-Asha and Kishore-Lata, but there are some good Rafi-Asha songs too. For LP, it’s mainly Rafi-Lata and Kishore-Lata, but there are quite a few Mukesh-Lata hits. OP’s orchestration in “Diwana hua badal” (KKK) is one of the best experiments in fusing different instruments. SD was awesome; listen to any duet of his and there’s always something great about the music. There is a Rafi-Lata duet in Vasant Desai’s “Jeevan mein piya tera saath rahe” (Goonj Uthe Sehnai), whose pace simply takes your breath away. But the duet of the century was composed by Jaidev for Hum Dono, “Abhi na jao chhor kar ke dil abhi bhara nahi” by Rafi-Asha.

  165. 165
    P. Haldar Says:

    Hi myk, two more duets that impressed me a lot: Manna-Lata in LP’s “Tum gagan ki chandrama” and Mukesh-Asha in Khayyam’s “O subhah kabhi to ayegi”.

    As for junior Roshan, please check if his music has any Bengali influence. His mother Ira Moitra is Bengali and used to sing for AIR when Roshan met her. Senior Roshan was outstanding; the Outlook poll that Sudip mentioned has his “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare” as the No. 1 song ever. Of course, there is always a lot of subjectivity involved in such a ranking, and given the vast treasure of songs it’s difficult, if not impossible, to identify the best song. But for whatever reason, this song always gets the attention of singers and composers. I’ve heard Kishore sing it on stage, Lata singing it for her Shraddhanjali album, Jaidev playing it in the Jaimala program,… Another Roshan song that I particularly like is the qawaali sung by Manna and Rafi in Barsaat ki Raat; Roshan actually used Ustad Fateh Ali Khan’s (Nusrat’s dad) composition for this song with permission. Manna starts with “Na tu karwan ki talash” and Rafi follows with “Yeh ishq ishq yeh ishq ishq”. Listen to the sufi strains in Rafi’s voice and see how easily he reaches the high octaves, keeping his vocal splendour intact; it’s almost a divine experience.

  166. 166
    myk Says:

    Jayanta,

    Seems to me you need to check the Binaca Geet Mala records for the amount of hits Rafi had in the 70′s, and in particular 76-80. I don’t think you know a lot from that period. You will be surprised to know that Rafi equalled Kishore in hit songs and especially from 79-81 it was Rafi everywhere on the Radio, very little of Kishore. Your comment “few hits” of Rafi is so hilarious, makes me wonder if you know anything about that time frame.

    Your comments are not based on fact, whatever you have said has no backup, it is based only on opinion, not fact. If you would like to debate in a healthy way, please back it up with facts, not opinions, like others have done.

    I can surely take you up on that challenge and you will be surprised but I think its a waste of time writing down the hit songs from both singers here, if you knew what I was talking about you wouldn’t be writing down such comments. For your info, refer back to my previous post, in 77, 78, 80, 81, Rafi songs are tops followed by numerous other hit songs, I don’t think you are able to digest that fact. One Rafi ace Dard-e-Dil in fact did transcend time, much more than the other hits from Karz.

    Can you please tell me why RDB gave most of his qawwali’s to Rafi and most of his classical songs to Bhupinder instead of Kishore ?. No one has also answered my question yet as to why Raj Kapoor did not want to take Kishore for Bobby, and had only Rafi or a new voice in mind ?.

    Your arguments are funny, you mention Rafi had to undergo tough competition, what competition was that ?. He single handedly wiped away all competition in the early 50′s. You fail to mention Kishore as one of the singers who could not seem to get a break during that time and resort to (as what others have done) his acting. Kishore was an all-rounder, but there is absoutely no comparison in singing to Rafi.

    You don’t mention Kishore as being part of the competition in the 50′s, and only when you want, you mention he sang songs, but then when it comes to Rafi ruling the roost, you mention Kishore was busy acting, how silly is that !!.

    I don’t think you know a great deal about your favourite singer, because if you did, you would know he came to Mumbai to be a singer but had to wait more than twenty years to finally achieve success.

    I am with Sudip on this one, no point in debating for no reason especially when some cannot comprehend certain facts.

    For your info, Rafi and Kishore sang almost the same amount of songs in the 70′s, bet you didn’t know that. I suggest you don’t mention Rafi’s influence in the 70′s unless you know what you are talking about.

  167. 167
    Debjyoti Says:

    JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
    HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!

    JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
    HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!

    JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
    HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!

    JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
    HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!

    JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
    HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!

    JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
    HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!

    JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
    HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!

    JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
    HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!

    JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
    HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!

    JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
    HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!

    JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
    HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!

    JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
    HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!

    Hussein Sekh,I know you are the only Rafi fan here,so don’t change your name and write as different persons.Get lost.

    JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
    HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!

  168. 168
    sachin Says:

    I am new here but I agree with Halder, manish, sudip and myk. Rafi was gaining pack his position by 1980.

    If Rafi hadn’t died in 1980, he would possibly have sung:
    a. All Ek Duje ke liye songs
    b. All Betaab songs that went to Shabbir Kumar
    c. All SP Bala songs in Sagar and other films.
    plus more..

    I think the Ek Duje Ke Liye songs would have made him #1 without any dispute..

  169. 169
    binu nair Says:

    Very True JAYANTHA,

    KK was a JACK of many trades as you have said. The MASTER
    of Play back was Rafi saab . For any hero , for any situation, in
    any pitch, in any language including ENGLISH (baharon phool
    barsao and Hum Kaale hai to kya huwa- the English versions)
    and for every actor.
    Rafi is the TANSEN of Music. No one before him or anyone after
    him so far has managed to retain the sweetness of MELO dy.

    I myself started as a KK lover IN 1970-71 PERIOD but after
    listening to Saighal, Talat saab, Mukesh, Hemanta, Manna da
    quickly reverted to Mohd.Rafi whose tunes and magic has only
    increased with time. I was 16 years then.
    Even the new generation sing Rafi songs i n style – as they
    are EVERGREEN AND MELODIOUS TO THE EAR.

    kk was on top yes for a few years after 1970 when RAFI took
    a sabbatical .But, RAFI duly came back after some of the composers
    had written him off..
    Soon, R.D. Burman faded and also the big talk that he did’nt need
    Rafi in his music rooms.
    Rafi saab topped the charts in 78 – 80 period which is a FACT.
    BUT SOME OF KK fans would never be able to digest this TRUTH/
    fact.
    So , let it be that way…. And WE end the topic…..

    binu nair binus2000@hotmail.com Mumbai.

  170. 170
    Debjyoti Says:

    Kishoreda was at the top in playback singing from 1969 to 1987.He is the greatest singer,comic hero and genius of all times.

  171. 171
    Debjyoti Says:

    Some foolish and ignorant people are telling that Rafi was back at the top in 1977. Rafi was never at the top after 1969. Kishoreda singlehandedly ruled the music industry from 1969 to 1987.And not to forget his other talents.

  172. 172
    irfan Says:

    Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but the ignorants do not know what music is ýand think that teen-kanastar peet peet kar gala phaad kar chillana is gaana that’s why ýdebjyoti,bapan and jayanta are unable to appreciate Rafisaab.You go on to say that ýRafisaab was trained whereas Kishore Kumar was untrained, C’mmon man KK was ýin the industry for more than 20 years before Aradhana happened. Did he not had the ýtime and resources to learn music.And if you do not know before becoming an actor ýAshok Kumar used to deal in selling of musical instruments.He had a shop in ýMalad(Bombay).And KK was a kid when Ashok Kumar became an actor ,He had the ýinstruments at his disposal as he also used to sit at the shop, so he knew the basics of ýmusic and he also knew the range of his voice.Regarding the song ‘Ajab hai dastan ýterei aye zindagi’ in the film ‘Shararat’, The legendary Jaikishan had remarked that ýthe song was simply not KK’s cup of Tea, If you hear the song please listen to the ýline ‘tumhare pyaar ke is aanchal tale hamare gum dhale hamare gum dhale’ The ýsmoothness with which Rafi comes down from the higher notes to the lower and then ýcarries on ‘Dhala andhera jagi roshni’ PLEASE LISTEN TO IT you will understand ýthe remark made by Jaikishen is so very true. I like many of KK’s songs and ýappreciate the fact that given his limitataions he was one of the best our country has ýproduced but Why don’t KK fans simply appreciate the fact that trained or untrained, ýthe quality of Rafisaabs voice was a gift of the Almighty and his dedication to music ýand humblenes as a human being make him stand on a pedestal that one can only look ýat with reverence. This is the reason why you can see any Tom,dick and Harry ýsinging KK’s simple song and also sounding like him in total perfection for at least ýone song sung by KK but you can’t witness any one singing Rafisaab’s song with the ýsame tonal quality.Take man tadpat form baiju bawra and Jaan pehchan and all the ýother genre come in between.And the guy who is using orkut to prove that KK is the ýbest has surely gone out of his mind.How many Indians or Hindi music lovers are ýthere,Are they all computer literate,do all have access to Internet.Are they all ýregistered with orkut???ý
    Go to the masters of classical music,give them your options and ask them whom they ýrate higher Rafi or Kishore and then we will see who is the best,Singer Vinod rathod ýwho is a devout Kishore Bhakt had said in an interview after the release of Baazigar ýthat “Mai Kishoreda ko hi follow karta tha lekin jabse music ki samajh aaye hai ýmaine Rafisaab ko sunna shuru kiya”. In India we have anti-social elements voted to ýbecome,MP,MLA,CM..the list goes on,Does their getting elected remove the tag of ýcriminal from their names ,They also have a proof of their majority, but is it true they ýwere good and so were elected.So my dear friend You can keep a track of this Orkut ýrecord to satisfy your own ego as well as those of your likes, who cares??ý

  173. 173
    myk Says:

    Hi P. Haldar,

    I will join you and Sudip in making a graceful exit as well.

    Rajesh Roshan was trained by Ustad Faiyaz Khan, and before his debut Kunwara Baap he assisted L-P. He has mentioned in interviews that he regards L-P as a complete school of music where he learnt a lot about composing and laxmikant took him under his wing and groomed him well. Imagine grooming a potential competitor, that is what hapened in thi situation. His music has fok influences but also influence of the Vangelis and Eagles, two music groups. I will check up on if RR’s music has Bengali influence.

    The composers you mentioned for duets were indeed the best, and I would like to add another name to that list, K-A. Their duets were excellent especially by Lata-Rafi. Also included in their repetoire are Asha-Rafi, Asha-Kishore, Lata-Kishore and Lata-Mukesh.

    SD was indeed awesome in duets, the majority of them are great, and about “Man re tu ka”, this is another masterpiece of a composition. Roshan was another great composer, Lata picked him as the MD for her home production that never took off.

  174. 174
    Anand Says:

    I personally believe that Kishoreda was way ahead than Rafisaab as Kishoreda was a natural talent that was awesome.
    I dont shed a drop of tear after listening to emotional number of rafisaab but needless to say that Kishoreda same number make me breathless….
    The debate will go on here that is for sure but ultimately all and sundry out here will realise that Kishoreda was single and Rafisaab can be born many a times…..Love u Kishoreda miss u…………

  175. 175
    binu nair Says:

    Dear Debijyoti:

    How will you feel if we all say Hai Hai to your entire family; the
    most mediocre family who brought you up to say and to use such
    phrases for the greatest singer of our land : Mohd Rafi..
    You have downgraded the spirit of the debate and you have
    stooped too low Mr.Debijyoti. Is your Master too of your class???
    Do you want us to tell in this forum that that YOUR VERSATILE GENIOUS was sent to jail for 15 days for dodging the Income tax and he was left high and dry in the INDUSTRY.

    You are instigating RAFI music lovers by using roadside phrases and
    you must be ready to reap what you sow…..STOP IT N O W…..

    BINU NAIR

  176. 176
    binu nair Says:

    Dear Debjyoti:

    What you have said to Mr Hussain is due to you having
    hallucinations. Its a PSYCHIATRIC condition that you are
    feeling now.
    You feel that Hussein is one person using different names.
    You need immediate PSYCHIATRIC treatment for this. And you
    also said : get lost to Hussein due to this hallucination.
    I live in Mumbai and myself can chat live with you to prove that
    Hussen does not use alibis. Same with many writers of whom
    you feel the same.
    As I said earlier… you need urgent Psychiatric treatment for
    your mental condition and I can HELP YOU OUT…

    contact me: binus2000@hotmail.com

  177. 177
    zeenath Says:

    though kk could not outsmart rafi with all of his soatributed abilities,kk fans will surely tarnish porr rafi with their harsh and unfounded comments.what a pity.hear music with ears and heart

  178. 178
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    Shame on debjyoti… sadak chhap… an uneducated KK fan! This is what one expect from a KK fan. I believe it’s a waste of time for us to visit this site. Useless really. Even an African negro is much better educated than this chap. This chap has crossed the level. A junglee fellow! KK if alived would have slapped this chap who spoke harsh on Rafi Saheb.

  179. 179
    unknow Says:

    KK had four wifes it is true and became Muslim and changed his name to if am not wrong to Kassam Ali to marry….plz listen to song in flim Kranti when mohd Rafi enter to the song……KK was at top from 1969 to 1987!!!!!!!?that what u kk fans say but we Mohd Rafi say that Mohd Rafi is still at the top and will be,Lata ji had Bharat Ratna award but we Mohd Rafi fans think that award should given to Mohd Rafi before Lata Ji but u KK fans never spoke about that because u r sure that this award is more higher from u r KK,Talat Ji said that Mohd Rafi voice is gift from God but Mohd Rafi made it gift to God,SB said when he listen to Mohd Rafi he think that he is not half of Mohd Rafi,Asha Ji said no one can win Mohd Rafi,OP Nayar,Naushand,Madan Mohan,SD and LP do u KK fans know who are they and what they said about Mohd Rafi u kk fans know more these great people in music world.
    DO U KK fans know that flim maker and actor want kk to sing in Flim Laila Majnu but Madan Mohan said no he will use Mohd Rafi,I know u kk fans are blind mind u can’t see the trueth but please put KK voice in flim Laila Majnu songs….and many more,Raj Kapoor didn’t used Mohd Rafi much but he said that Mohd rafi is the best same to Manoj Kummar.
    we should feel sham to compare Mohd Rafi with KK.really i don’t understant how someone can say that KK was better SINGER!!!!!!

  180. 180
    Robin Says:

    Kishore is a better singer than Rafi because he can act.
    Kishore is a better actor than Naseeruddin Shah because he can sing
    Kishore is a better soccer player than Maradona because he can also sing and act

    –BIZARRE LOGIC

    First of all I think he as a good singer but a lousy actor.
    Since most of the Kishore fans are Bengalees here, let me remind them of Tulsi Chakraborty in Sharey Chuattar or Rabi Ghosh in Galpo Holeo Satyi or Santosh Dutta in Jai Baba Felunath..

    That is what is called comedy not Kishore-sumar-style-bharamo (utter frivolity)

  181. 181
    Abhisek Says:

    Well said Anand,Kishoreda is obviously the greatest and most popular singer of all times.

  182. 182
    irfan Says:

    Someone said that “The debate will go on here that is for sure but ultimately all and sundry out here will realise that Kishoreda was single and Rafisaab can be born many a times”….Well Kumar sanu,abhijeet,shaan,vinod rathod,babul supriyo and the list goes on.What a JOKE hahahaha.Now don’t you say that we have Anwar,shabbir kumar,Mohd Aziz,Sonu as Rafi clones. What I want to point out is how much lies you guys invent just for defending your rotten arguments.

  183. 183
    binu nair Says:

    For saying Hai Hai to The greatest singer Rafi, Kishore da would
    have slapped Debojyit and closed this site as KK respected
    Rafi saab.
    KK once slapped a fan for saying some foolish thing abour Rafi saab.

    And when SADAK CHAAP FANS enter the EDUCATED AND LITERATE
    LEAVE THE PLACE… ANY PLACE FOR THAT MATTER….

    SO BYE BYE….

    binu nair binus2000@hotmail.com.

  184. 184
    Robin Says:

    Couldn’t stop posting this one.

    A R Rahman recent interview:
    ————————————
    Are you hunting for more singers? What about instrumentalists?

    I am always on the lookout for new talent. These days I am looking for a good male voice. Like Rafi, not ˜roughy” (laughs). Someone who can switch octaves with that ease.

    If you can’t guess who a “roughy” singer could be, come to this site and look at the picture at the top.

  185. 185
    Bandita Says:

    What to say about this man,he is my dream man,everyone’s favourite.Kishore Kumar is not only the best singer ever,but also the best human being,was quite humourous too.I have allways rated him far ahead than other singers like Rafi and Mukesh.No one can ever match his talents,he mastered every art.His acting,dancing was also the best.Not to forget him as a director,musician and lyricist.In short he is GOD.He is best.Personally,I don’t like Rafi’s songs at all.Rafi is liked by very few people of previous generation,while Kishore Kumar is liked by millions of people all over the world.

    From Bandita-a die-hard Kishore fan.

  186. 186
    Manish Kumar Says:

    I know this is going to sound ridiculous but…

    I would really have liked to listen to a Kishore Kumar version of “Pardah Hai Pardah Hai.” He would have done an EXCELLENT job and I can gauge that from merely the one line he sang in the song. One of my favorite qawwalis is actually a KK qawwali – Haal Kya Hai Dillon from that 1973 Jeetendra movie. Sure, KK wouldn’t do the alaaps and such but his own version would still be special in a different way. No matter how good something is, if you’re too much into it – you will be desensitized to it. Sometimes I get “tired” of Rafi singing every single qawwali and like to resort to a different, fresh voice. Kishore seemed to be at 100% capacity of his abilities when uttering that line but he could pull it off.

  187. 187
    soumo roy Says:

    It is not a very useful thing to compare two singers or actors. This cannot be understood by fans who soon loose all sense pf proportion and support their singer against all comments. I am a kishore fan and have been so all my fifty years of age. But it was only recently that I had the oppertunity to listen to Kishore, Rafi , Hemonto, and Mannadey on high quality MP3 players during extended metrorail travels to office. What I heard surprised me. The Mp3 music can be heard very closely in the ears and when you hear a long collection of songs of each , the effect can be quite revealing.What I have to say is this:
    About voice quality
    The order in which you can place the above mentioned singers is Kishore, Rafi, Manna, quite a few others and Hemonto. I find that it is possible to find many good voices among female stars due to the higher frequency content which the human organism reproduces better(?). But this fact is being proved time and gain by the sa re ga ma contests which have found many good contenders to Lata and asha and records show that there have always been good contenders to them. It is the male voice with versatility which is difficult to find. On the MP3 if you listen to the slow passages you will find that inferior voices loose their musicality and sound banal. It is only kishore and rafi who can meet the challenge. I have no quarrel to pick with the Rafi fans on this count, however I place Kishore above Rafi comparing them on a huge repertoire of songs.

    Conveyance of the song
    However it is on the second count that kishore excels. His songs convey the feeling and context of the song better than anybody else. The emotional songs sound natural and not concocted. It was because he was an excellent actor, acting in sad and comedy films with elan. He was a Director who could convey the song context very aptly.
    He did not have any classical music training , like from a classical Guru, however the training he recieved from his sister who was a classical artist of repute and the encouragement from the avid listeners of his fathers lawyer friends, nurtured an interest from a young age and natural understanding of what ‘listens good’, never left him. He could say a line of prose musically.

    It is these qualities that place him as a singer above everybody else and unfortunately it is this combination of a singer with top voice quality with his understanding of context, acting and direction that will be hard to find in another singer for a long , long time to come, maybe a thousand years?

  188. 188
    Apoorva Kumar Srivastava Says:

    Kishoreda is simply the best and so is Mohd Rafi sahab.Comparing people diffrent styles is utter foolishness.All those Rafi fans posting veiws against Kishoreda are not good enough to be called mohd Rafi sahab’s fans.they are no fans but are enemy to music. WE JUST CAN’T COMPARE TAJ MAHAL’s BEAUTY WITH HEIGHT OF THE PETRONAS TOWER’S.Hence simply starting a debate over greatness of two god’s of music is just wastage of time listen to music and just enjoy it.

  189. 189
    soumo roy Says:

    Nothing further to add, I confirm what I said.

  190. 190
    zeenath Says:

    years after the death of rafi and kk music lovers very actively participating in debates abot them.thiz reveals the imprint and legacy left behind by them.comparison between them is not at all possible as rafi is very muchahead than kk as a singer,kk is ahead than rafi as an actor.

  191. 191
    bhaskar Says:

    Debjoyoti and other shameless creeps

    If this is how you love and represent Kishore that you need to make insulting comments about the noble and graceful Mohammed Rafi then you have a major inferiority complex and suffer from insecurity.

    Your lack of knowledge suggests that either you are a kid or simply a usless person who has time to dish out shit on this respected site.

    Leave these legends alone as most of you don’t have even an iota of knowledge about their quality of singing and their mutual respect and love they had for each other.

  192. 192
    bhaskar Says:

    sorry moderators, i just saw my post. I take my comments back. You should anyway not allow such nonsese to get through this respected site.

  193. 193
    dron Says:

    Interesting article but inept title. The title must read “enldess feud between facts and desperate KK fans”

    By forcing KK to be pitied with legends like Rafi, all these KK fans have achieved is scaling down the memory of KK and insulting his fantastic achievements. When they fail to satisfy their burning urge to somehow convince themselves that KK was better than someone else, they start throwing abuses and get involved with discussions that could put sewage to shame.

    It surprises me why fans of Mukesh, Hemant Kumar, Mana Dey and Mohammed Rafi do not have such discussions on their site.

    Something to really ponder about??

    Another point to ponder about is why it is that the name of Mohammed Rafi brings feelings of hate and anxiety to a section of the self proclaimed KK fans.

    Rafi, a true symbol of playback singing who in the words of Lata filled the void left by the legendry K.L. Saigal, someone who mastered every skill of singing from the early 1940s to the 80′s. A name that is a sign of dignity and pride not only for India but for the sub-continent. A unmatched personality who did not allow even a spec of arrogance and pride take over his unmatched and rare skills and fame that no one has ever had in HFM, a person of high levels of modesty, kindness and decency and who all his colleagues including KK adored and respected.

    So why the name Rafi irks these bigots? Truth hurts and facts are only for the wise. In both cases you have failed.

    Feel sorry for KK that he has such by such a disgraceful following. If he was alive today, he would have disowned you all.

  194. 194
    Mast Mast Says:

    Mr. Dron – All legends have different categories of fan so typifying all under one category whether it is Rafi sahab fans or KK fans makes no sense.

    A handful of them in both cases like to compare legends to show why the favour one of them.

    So I do not think it is polite to say disgrace etc.. to any of them. This is an open board and each one of us have a right to voice why we favour someone. Facts are meant for statisticians and researches to ponder over, not for personal preferences. :D

  195. 195
    P. Haldar Says:

    The discussion is getting a little more interesting, so I thought I’d contribute my bit. Here’s what I did; I randomly selected a year (1965) and identified 20 Rafi solos released that year. Here they are:

    1. Din dhal jaye (Guide – S. D. Burman)
    2. Tere mere sapne (Guide – S. D. Burman)
    3. Kya se kya ho gaya (Guide – S. D. Burman)
    4. Yahan main ajnabi hoon (JJPK – Kalyanji Anandji)
    5. Pardesiyon se na aankhiyan milana (JJPK – Kalyanji Anandji)
    6. Aye watan aye watan (Shaheed – Prem Dhawan)
    7. Sarfaroshi ki tamanna (Shaheed – Prem Dhawan)
    9. Pukarta chala hoon main (Mere Sanam – O. P. Nayyar)
    10. Tukre hai mere dil ko (Mere Sanam – O. P. Nayyar)
    11. Jaag dil-e-deewana (Oonche Log – Chittragupt)
    12. Tera husn rahe mera ishq rahe (Do Dil – Hemant Kumar)
    13. Aye phoolon ke rani (Aarzoo – Shankar-Jaikishan)
    14. Chhalke teri aankhon mein (Aarzoo – Shankar-Jaikishan)
    15. Jaan pehchan ho (Gumnaam – Shankar-Jaikishan)
    16. Hum kale hai to kya hua dil wale hai (Gumnaam – Shankar-Jaikishan)
    17. Chhoo lene do nazuk honto ko (Kajal – Ravi)
    18. Dil jo na kahe saka (Bheegi Raat – Roshan)
    19. Kahin bekhayal hokar (Teen Deviyan – S. D. Burman)
    20. Aise to na dekho (Teen Deviyan – S. D. Burman)

    These songs cover a wide range of genres (ghazal, patriotic, rock ‘n roll, comedy…), were composed by several MDs (SD, OP, SJ, Roshan, Hemant, Ravi…) and sung on screen by different actors (Dev Anand, Dharmendra, Shammi, Biswajeet, Rajendra Kumar, Raj Kumar, Shashi Kapoor, Mehmood…). The “voice” goes high pitch, low pitch, short pitch, full pitch,… and conveys feelings of every kind (masti, gam, mohabbat, sharabi, mawali, beqarari, desh-preeti…).

    Can someone tell me — and this is for my own education — in which songs Kishore would sound better (with respect to voice and feeling)?

    In most countries, if a singer had sung 40 such songs in a lifetime, he or she would have been bestowed all possible honours and awards; there would be no need for any debate. The Indian diaspora across the world — in Birmingham, London, Toronto, Port of Spain, the Fijis, Nairobi, Dubai, New York, Colombo and Singapore — has been swaying to Rafiana for the last 50 years. And now we are being told that there are other singers who are far ahead in conveying emotions!

    When Rafi sang “Suhani raat dhal chuki” in 1949, I don’t think there was a proper recording room, forget about digital gizmos. No one even remembers who sang it on screen, but yet the lustre of that song grows with every passing year. Likewise, no one knows who danced to the tune of “Madhuban mein radhika nache re”. Fifty years from now, when no one would care for Dev Anand or Rajesh Khanna, people would still be listening to Rafi’s priceless gems. Because Rafi is the ultimate benchmark, the barometer for gauging the worth of the popular singer of the day.

    Instead of 1965, I could have selected 1966. Do I need to remind readers which “suraj” shone that year or which MD got elevated to his “loRD” status? Yes, two more gems surfaced that year among his countless others: “Baharo phool barsao” and “Tumne mujhe dekha”.

  196. 196
    dron Says:

    Mr. Dron – All legends have different categories of fan so typifying all under one category whether it is Rafi sahab fans or KK fans makes no sense.

    >>>>Mr Mast

    >>>>Please read carefully, I said a section of KK fans. Lets not talk about sense after what is being posted on this site, ok.

    A handful of them in both cases like to compare legends to show why the favour one of them.

    >>>>It is more of an epidemic with KK fans that they always bring rafi in this discussion and not others who were also champion singers.

    So I do not think it is polite to say disgrace etc.. to any of them.

    >>> The word polite on this site is like speaking about peace with a terrorist.

    This is an open board and each one of us have a right to voice why we favour someone.

    >> Sure but thats not the case here.

    Facts are meant for statisticians and researches to ponder over, not for personal preferences.

    >> No figures are meants for statisticans, facts and truth go hand in hand. Simply having personal preferences will not change the facts.

  197. 197
    Mast Mast Says:

    Sorry Sir, I do not agree with you, not even with a single point.

    If you see the comment section, there are more Rafi fans here arguing.. We have only one or two .. Debjyot and Bandita refuting and dragging Rafi sahab in comparison, which I too abhor.

    I am a KK fan too (btw it is a Ms not Mr ;) ) but I like Rafi sahab songs too and I give credit to both of them for what they have given me by way of lovely songs that I still relish even after they have left us and gone.

    To me facts and figures do not matter, coz ultimately I am here to listen and enjoy their songs and not sit and compare and make an analysis. That is sheer waste of time hahahaha :D

    Life is too short to fight over these trivial issues :) This is my humble opinion. You may disagree but I have a right to my opinion. :)

  198. 198
    Singer123 Says:

    U cant compare a bright light with the light of a star or a Sun, Therefore U cant compare Kishore with The Great Rafi ! .. Rafi can sing Kishore’s songs.. but the question is can Kishore do the same ?? Rafi Never had a competitor.. He was the undisputed King of Playback singing. When Rafi never had a competitor.. how can u compare anyone else with him ?? Kishore was a wonderful singer.. all praises for him .. but he looked up to Rafi.. Rafi has played back for Kishore as well. .. now if Kishore was better than Rafi .. why did he use Rafi’s voice for some songs picturised on him ?? ;) One statement ends the feud.

  199. 199
    sudip Says:

    Couldn’t help re-posting after P Haldar’s knowledgeable post.

    I know he has knowingly chosen to leave out “Humdum mere Man bhi jao” from Mere Sanam and “Yahan main ajnabi hoon” from JJPK. The reason I would highlight these is that it skews Rafi’s boundaries further, the former being a relatively fast number amidst the romatic Pukarta Chala and sad Tukde Hai mere dil ke and the latter being the the best song according to Anandji that Rafi ever sang for KA duo.

    If I were to choose my favorite Rafi years, I would choose 1968-1969 (YES-the very ARADHANA year)..From Mere Huzoor, Mere Humdum Mere Dost, Anjaana, Do raaste, Brahmachari, neel kamal, Jhuk Gaya Aasman, Aadmi, to Aradhana, talash, Tumse Accha Kaun Hai and the lesser known Mahua Rafi delivered gems one after the other.

    It is also in 1968-69 that we see two evening based songs sung by Kishore and Rafi that happen to be my favorites and can compete for the best song for this mood.. Kishore’s “Woh Shaam kuch ajeeb this” is a traditional favorite..To me Rafi went a notch up with “Hui shaam unka khayal aa gaya” (KK fans will disagree, who cares)… Enjoy.

  200. 200
    Manish Kumar Says:

    ANAND: Here’s an emotional gem of Mohammed Rafi, I’d like to hear what you think. It isn’t a particurly tragic number meant to make you cry, but surely you feel something.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZSnVzngiG4

    Two songs immediately come to mind when thinking of Kishore’s emotional songs…O Saathi Re and Aana Wala Pal

    If a singer like Mohammed Rafi can be born numerous times again, how many singers can you name that was the UNDISPUTED #1 singer for ~20 years? Not many.

  201. 201
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Kishore Kumar’s popularity remains intact today because he was indeed a GREAT SINGER who changed the course of India Cinema and Music but what makes him EXTRA popular to this day: he was the voice of Amitabh Bachchan.

    Amitabh Bachchan is still an active actor maintaining a busy schedule and therefore people still keep him in mind in the present rather than the relatively passive past. As a result of this, they are better AWARE of his greatness and of his past works – and of course, what is tied to Amitabh Bachchan’s greatness is the AMAZING VOICE of Kishore Kumar.

    Yes, people know Dilip Kumar or Dharmendra were great actors, but they know it “passively” since these guys are out of the present radar. The voices of these guys was of course, the one and only Mohammed Rafi. Rafi does not get that Amitabh Bachchan benefit that Kishore has. P Haldar was keen to point out that Rafi remained on top in the late 1970s despite Kishore having the advantage that his HEAVY voice better suited the reigning superstar of that time. Nevertheless, Rafi proved to have greater versatility as a playback singer because his voice was just right. Not too deep, not too low and very clean and as a result of this he did seamless playback for dozens of actors. Kishore’s specific deep voice did not suit as many actors.

    As a Rafi fan, I liked his rendition of Zindagi Ek Safar better: he displayed better tonal quality i.e. his voice was fuller. In Tum Bin Jaon Kahan, Rafi’s voice was more crisp whereas Kishore’s rendition had a relatively BLUNT and COARSE voice. The operative word here is RENDITION because Kishore could have made his voice more crisp had he wanted in my opinion, as he has demonstrated that ability in other songs like Padosan. At the same time, this goes both ways because the only reason Kishore’s version was more popular was because of the yodelling – Rafi could have yodelled just as well as Kishore if he wanted (but it was looked down upon for a trained singer to do so) – don’t underestimate Rafi’s amazing vocals.

  202. 202
    dron Says:

    Sorry Sir, I do not agree with you, not even with a single point.

    >> You dont have to be sorry for that!!!

    If you see the comment section, there are more Rafi fans here arguing.. We have only one or two .. Debjyot and Bandita refuting and dragging Rafi sahab in comparison, which I too abhor.

    >> They are not arguing but taking their important time out by rationally presenting facts although they are not obliged to do it.

    >>>Nice to know you abhor these miserable people. I too abhor those few Rafi fans who speak nonsese about KK and others.

    I am a KK fan too (btw it is a Ms not Mr ) but I like Rafi sahab songs too and I give credit to both of them for what they have given me by way of lovely songs that I still relish even after they have left us and gone.

    >> Fair thinking.

    To me facts and figures do not matter, coz ultimately I am here to listen and enjoy their songs and not sit and compare and make an analysis. That is sheer waste of time hahahaha

    >> Yes but everyone is not like you.

    Life is too short to fight over these trivial issues This is my humble opinion. You may disagree but I have a right to my opinion.

    >>> I will not diasgree simply because you disagreed to my post which I still stand for as I have seen over the years about the pathetic attititude of so called KK fans.

  203. 203
    dron Says:

    Very good observations, Manish, Sudip and Halder.

  204. 204
    P. Haldar Says:

    Sudip, I did include “Yahan main ajnabi hoon” from JJPK (No. 4). I had to leave out quite a few good songs and I agree that “Humdum mere maan bhi jao” would have better demonstrated his range. Select any year in the 60s and you’ll have a problem in identifying the top 20, such was his output those days. You mentioned 1968-69 as being your favourite years. Chirag came out in 1969 and Rafi had two beautiful solos (Teri aankhon ke siva and Chirag dil ko jalawo); the first one was also sung by Lata for her favourite composer, but Rafi’s is the one that is better (my opinion) and much more popular (fact).

    Instead of 1969, you could also try the beginning of that decade. In 1960, here are some films that had Rafi’s gems: Kohinoor, Chaudvin ka Chaand, Kala Bazaar, Lal Quila, Barsat ki Raat, Kalpana, Mughal-e-Azam and Bambai ka Babu. Kala Bazaar is known for “Khoya khoya chaand” but listen to “Apni to har aah ik toofan hai”. In Chaudvin ka Chaand, other than the title song, listen to “Mili khak me mohabbat”. Among the many wonderful duets Manna and Rafi sang together, a personal favourite of mine is “Tu hai mera prem devata” from Kalpana. And probably the two ghazals in Lal Quila (Na kisiki aankh ka noor hoon and Lagta nahi hai dil mera) ended Talat’s dominance in that genre.

    As I’ve said before, there is a fair amount of subjectivity in selecting your favourite voice. This, to a large extent, depends on your personal likes and dislikes. Among Bengalis, if you include both Hindi and Bengali songs, the favourite male voice is one of the following: Manna, Kishore, Hemanta or Rafi. Some in the older generation still swear by Pankaj Mullick and Debabrata Biswas. But if you restrict yourself to only Hindi songs, it will be either Kishore or Rafi, with the younger generation probably preferring Kishore and the older generation Rafi. Manish made a very interesting observation about the younger generation being much more aware of the Amitabh Bachchan songs than the Dilip Kumar songs. This is called the recency effect and Kishore has a big advantage here. The real test would be 25 years from now when Lata, Asha and (less so) Kishore wouldn’t have such an advantage over Rafi. In my mind, I know which two would be fighting for the title of the “best singer” but I don’t want to start another nasty debate.

    I personally feel that Kishore’s voice was terrific during the 1965-76 perod. There were always some rough hues but I think that made the voice more attractive. I have no problems in conceding that he was the king during the 1971-75 period. In the 80s, he may have lost some of the innate sweetness and crispness he had in his voice, but given the quality of the competition then, he could easily rule the charts. In a couple of Bengali songs from the mid 80′s, his voice definitely sounded quite rough (“hnere” in Bengali). But it would be fair to point out that Rafi’s voice in 1980 was also nowhere near what it used to be in the 60s, something that Rafi fans would be reluctant to admit.

    As far as voice is concerned, a large number of people in the Marwari community of Kolkata used to prefer Mukesh to Rafi or Kishore. I personally like the voices of all the great singers, but in terms of male voice, my No. 1 favourite has always been Rafi and female voice it has been Geeta. As a singer, Lata may be much greater than Geeta, but in terms of voice alone, she is my favourite. To each one his own!

  205. 205
    P. Haldar Says:

    Singer123, I don’t think we should read too much into this “Rafi playbacked for Kishore” thing. Kishore’s fans also keep unnecessarily repeating that Kishore was too busy acting so he didn’t have time to sing. Come on, a talent like Kishore would have definitely liked to sing his own songs. There are two factors at play here. First and foremost, Kishore genuinely adored Rafi; I wouldn’t have been surprised if Kishore gave Rafi the chance to playback for him some of his own compositions in the 80s were Rafi alive then. There was a great deal of camraderie among the male singers in that generation. Second, if you consider a film like Raagini, where Rafi playbacked for Kishore, the MD was O. P. Nayyar, who once famously remarked, “Without Rafi there would be no OP”. On top of that, the song “Man more bawra” was semi-classical in nature; other than RD or Bappi, most MDs would prefer Rafi for such songs.

    Kishore’s ultimate ambition was to make SD sing under his baton, which remained unfulfilled! Rafi, of course, sang Kishore’s composition for a rupee.

  206. 206
    sudip Says:

    P. Haldar wrote:”In a couple of Bengali songs from the mid 80’s, his voice definitely sounded quite rough (”hnere” in Bengali). But it would be fair to point out that Rafi’s voice in 1980 was also nowhere near what it used to be in the 60s, something that Rafi fans would be reluctant to admit.

    As far as voice is concerned, a large number of people in the Marwari community of Kolkata used to prefer Mukesh to Rafi or Kishore”

    –Mukesh is very popular in Gujarat. He has sung some very good bhajans in Gujarati. If you take a poll among Gujaratis, especially those of the 1960s generation, I won’t be surprised if he tips Rafi or Kishore in popularity.

    I agree that Rafi in the 1980s (or rather 1980) was nowhere near the Rafi of the 60s, but the quality of songs had gone down as well. But in 1979-1980 the LP-Rafi combination was clearly way ahead of any other MD-singer combo in for the period. Some of my Rafi favorites during 1979-1980:

    1. Hum to chale pardes (Sargam,LP)
    2. Aab yeh jaana ke (Ladies Tailor, LP)–>here the vocal quality was comparable to the 60s
    3. Aashaon ki sawan mein (Aasha, LP)
    4. Chalo re doli (Jaani Dushman, LP)
    5. Kaali ghata chhayi (Kaali ghata, LP)
    6. Jaanewalon ka gham (Kaali Ghata,LP)
    7. Tu is tarah zindagi mein (Aap to Aise na the, Usha Khanna)
    8. Simti si yeh ghadiyan (Chambal Ki Kasam, Khaiyyam)–>again comparable to 1960s
    9. Tere siva na kisika banooga (Professor Pyarelal, Kalyanji Anandji)
    10. Dard-e-dil (Karz, LP)
    11. Maine poocha chand se (Abdullah, RD)
    12. O meri chorni (Kaatilon ki kaatil, Kalyanji Anandji)–>peppy number a glaring proof that age permitting, Rafi would have ruled even in late 80s with amir Khan like heroes.
    13. Arey sambhalo mere yaaron (Khuda Kasam, LP)
    14. Yeh aapne kya kar diya (Khuda Kasam, LP)
    —————————————————–

    See I have left out the popular numbers of Dostana, Shaan, Naseeb….Add those and you will get the dominant singer of 1979-80 by miles.

  207. 207
    P. Haldar Says:

    Sudip, sorry for the typo; I meant 1975, not 1980. By 1980 Rafi’s confidence was back and his voice was getting closer and closer to that of his in the 60s. Thanks for providing the list of songs during the 79-80 period; I particularly like Tu is tarah zindagi mein shamil hain, Dard-e-dil dard-e-jigar, Maine poochha chand se and Simti hui ye ghadiyan. There is a Rafi-Lata duet in Kala Patthar, “Baahon mein teri…” where Rafi and Lata both sound very good (in this song Rafi’s voice approaches his 60′s voice). Kishore had a major hit in this Rajesh Roshan-composed film, “Ik rasta hai zindagi”. I also like Kishore’s songs in Yaraana, something you may disagree with. Again, the songs are sung in a slightly heavier and coarser voice, but I think he purposely did that considering that they were meant for Amitabh. There’s a song of Rafi’s from Poonam that was released after this death: “Mohabbat rang layegi”. I really like that song. Rafi also did a pretty good job singing for Dev Anand in Man Pasand, “Logon ka dil”, almost a decade after he sang for the actor in Gambler.

    All in all, the 80s would have brought out the best in Kishore and Rafi, with LP, RD, RR and KA competing for the top spot. And among all the possible combinations, the one that I was looking forward to most was the RD-Rafi one, probably because of the range that both could provide and because of my own biases.

  208. 208
    prashant Says:

    i don’t know why in the website dedicated to yoodleeeyoo such a worse discussion is going on kishore kumar and nobody is able to give fact about him.
    let me put some point
    1.kishore was a singer who when started singing for a actor then he become superstar and when he left hi he become flop
    like in case of amitabh bachaan rajesh khanna, anil rishi and many more
    2. if any body is discussing about the fact that he had not sang for many music directors then he shoud know that laxmikant pyarelal choose him to replace mohd. rafi
    bappi lehri rajesh roshan and even anu mallik got rise from his singing.
    he was a star creator nobody created him a star
    3. it’s very easy to say that rd choose kishore that’s why kishore was famous. but if take in different side u will fnd no male voice song of rd could be fulfilled by other singer. kk was not his choice but its mandatory for him. as if he composed song for 1942 love story then again he used kishore school singer kumar sanu.
    4. no doubt that mohd. rafi style of singing give good songs but kishore kumar style put a song to such a level that it become eternal
    if you compare eternal hits give by only singer who use kk style then it is much more than rafi style of singer. like in case of abhijit and kumar sanu compared to sonu nigam and udit narayan.even new singer like babool kk and shaan used his style (style of heart)
    5. on selling rafi’s fan has to accept the fact that they far behind kishore as every albums of old songs has 60-70% share of kk
    6. if u go on classical then u shouldn’t compare them with lata and mohd. rafi as they are also tiny in comparison to gangubai hangal and bade gulam ali saab.
    bollywood playback singing is for common mass and here no doubt kk was always greater than lata and rafi
    7.also he could put more emotion in songs as he was a great actor

    8.if u go on prize then u should know that gandhi never got nobel peace prize but it does not mean that he was not there. he was above any leader of his time.we kk fan consider him god and god never need bharat ratna.
    if u rafi or lata fan have a prize for ever singer then u can give him

    also remember one thing this the one aspect of this legendry
    Debates can go on him for best actor, comedian, music composer and personality..

    9. singing is not for analyzing that it is made of this raga or that taal but it’s for enjoying and in this aspect we kk fan can easily say that no body can beat him

    10.some body in this discussion put an absurd comment that rafi can sing kk song but kk can’t . I want to ask either they got call of rafi from heaven.
    Nobody can say this type of thing. First music director used to say that ur voice is not for singing kk but he proved

  209. 209
    Mast Mast Says:

    Prashant thanks dost. Finally we have someone here to write something decently from KK fans’ side :)

  210. 210
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Prashant:

    On your first point, Amitabh’s strategy to overtake Rajesh Khanna was to steal Kishore Kumar. Amitabh Bachchan would not have risen in the ranks so quickly if it wasn’t for KK. He would be significantly reduced i.e. Amitabh wouldn’t be Amitabh without the voice of KK and the two matched either PERFECT – no one could replace KK for Amitabh – not even Rafi – despite giving him song great playback like in Dostana or Naseeb. Amitabh’s movie Mukadar Ka Sikandar – I enjoyed it only because of Kishore’s songs particuarly “O Saathi Re.” Kishore carried that movie else it was crap. Dostana was trite and predictable but the song of Rafi and Kishore made it a super hit.

    Second point: I still feel that majority of the music directors had Rafi as first choice. In fact, I’ll expand on this and say that a great reason for why I prefer Rafi over Kishore is BECAUSE FOR ME, Rafi got better songs and more songs. My favorite MDs are SJ, LP, and KA. The favorite singers of SJ and LP was Rafi. If Kishore sang some of Rafi’s numbers – they’d be great songs in their own ways. A Kishore rendition IMO would unlikely overtake a Rafi rendition but it would be GREAT. For example, the song Tum Bin Jaon Kahan, I personally don’t clearly prefer one over the other – - each has advantage disadvantage (yodel vs crisp voice). Both versions are great. RDB and SDB are great composers but they are not my favorites. If Kishore had sang more numbers for SJ (my favorite) – the gap of liking between him and Rafi for me would decrease for me. The MDs, singers, and actors ALL needed each other. As pointed out before, death of Jaikishan in 1971 was a big blow to Rafi. Rafi sang ~5000 songs where KK sang ~3100 songs.

    This makes me jump to your point 10: There are some songs of Rafi that Kishore could not sing. A KK fan commented that he didn’t care if KK did not sing “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale.” FAIR ENOUGH. There are some songs where KK does not have the a high enough vocal range (he’d sound strained trying to do “Ae Mohabbat Zindabad” from Mughal E Azam or even the simple song “Bura Mat Suno where there are moments Rafi has to go high pitch). Most KK fans will agree that Rafi had a wider vocal range and this immediately makes KK unable to render some Rafi numbers. Additionally, you cannot expect KK to do a qawali with proper alaaps or do classical numbers as well as Rafi when they REQUIRE classical training!

    Third point: Bear in mind that Mohammed Rafi was supposed to sing the songs of Aradhana. Rafi could sing any song of RDB and do it just as well. HOWEVER they would still not have the same impact as KK because…the public became desensitized to Rafi after 20 years of dominance – they needed a break and a fresh voice IMO and KK provided that. They needed fresh kind of music and RDB provided. More importantly, KK was GREAT and different from Rafi and this served well with a BREAK from Rafi and could also appeal to a different audience. I think the song “Koi Haseena” and “Holi Ke Din” would have done much better under Rafi than Kishore and the soundtrack of Sholay wasn’t as popular. Nevertheless, the songs of RDB not suprisingly better suited KK. So while I conclude that KK was the right choice for KK, it wasn’t purely on sheer merit (as opposed to needing something fresh and different).

    Point 4: That is PURELY opinion. My favorite singer is Udit Narayan. For me, Rafi songs were ETERNAL. This depends on the choices of the fan.

    Point 5: I’d say KK is enjoying the recency effect. Coincidentally, I was born in 1985 and I know of Rafi because he did playback for Amitabh in 1980 movies. I became introduced to Rafi mostly from 3 songs: John Johny Janardan, Salamat Rahe Dostana, and Kaun Kisiko Band Sakega (Kaalia). Had Rafi not voiced for Amitabh, it may have been longer before I became acquainted with my favorite singer. KK, of course, was THE voice for Amitabh and since Amitabh is still active and people are ACTIVELY aware of his greatness – people are more ACTIVELY aware of KK and that is why KK is more popular among younger people. The real test will come 20 years from now. According to HMV record company, Rafi sells more. Do you have proof of your statement?

    6. Maybe. I always liked Rafi over specialists in classical like Manna Dey because of his inhernetly superior, melodious voice. That is why I like the qawaalis of Rafi better than Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan mainly because of Rafi’s superior voice although Nusrat is of course more specialized and more famous for it. As for KK being better in playback – again that is only your opinion. I disagree.

    7. Whole heartedly agree that KK could put emotion into the song. Definitely. However, Rafi was great in his own right and he TOO could put emotion into songs. As one small example (not to be generalized), in the song Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara – Rafi had more emotion for me. In fact, some will say that a handful of songs KK THROATED whereas with Rafi, majority of songs seemed to come from the heart. Classifying a song as “emotional” is clear but subjective nevertheless so it is crude to say but I’d wager Rafi has had more emotional numbers than KK as he sang almost twice the number of different songs as KK. I disagree with you.

    8. Agreed.
    9. I agree to that singing is art. In fact, I think RDB once said, when comparing KK and Rafi, that Rafi was technically perfect but KK did not follow the rules and found a way to enthrall audience RDB said Rafi was Ivan Lendl whereas KK was John McEnroe. Of course, RDB knows more about music than I but I do think Rafi could enthrall the audience with songs like “Yahoo!” or “Hum Kaale Hain To”. And I agree that KK belongs in the hearts of KK fans and that no one can replace him. He is great in his own way.

  211. 211
    robin Says:

    Prshant is the latest addition to the number of KK fans who try to defend with the argument of popularity. Honestly, I think Rafi is more popular if you consider all over India and all age groups. I know of several KK fans who converted to Rafi once they started having grey hair..This hold good for Babul Supriyo, Shaan as well.. As they get more into Bollywood, they understand who is the king and they start singing Rafi songs..

    Even then, we the Rafi fans would try to analysze with quality and not with quantity. If cheap popularity is a measure of art, then pornographic magazines are better than Tagore’s literary works..When the market invades art, it is the end of art.

    Rafi could cater to both cheap popularity and the classical taste without resorting to any gimmick or gizmo..That makes him universal.

    And who says that someone who has a good ear for classical music does not enjoy it from the heart?? Enjoyment has different forms, some are more esoteric. If ignorance is a virtue, then as I said playboy magazine is a better art form than Tagore.

  212. 212
    Manish Kumar Says:

    I see what you’re saying.

    However, I too think popularity is a great indicator of greatness, so long as there isn’t some other factor that is distorts things beyond reason.

    Clearly, the great Kishore Kumar, his songs, and the work of RDB were great entities and it is silly to even try to make an analogy with Playboy Magazine IMO. I do understand though that you were merely trying to explain a concept.

    I do think Rafi is comparably popular to Kishore.

  213. 213
    myk Says:

    I thought I might as well stay here since P. Haldar and Sudip have also stayed. I would like to comment on Prashant’s points:

    Point 1: In regards to making a superstar, Rafi made much more actors than Kishore did, Kishore has a hand in the careers of Rajesh Khanna and Amitabh, but if you look at the list of Rafi there is Biswajeet, Joy Mukherjee, Sanjay Khan, Dharmendra, Dilip Kumar, Rajendra Kumar, and a whole host of others. You mention when KK stopped singing for Rishi Kapoor he became a flop, if you notice after Bobby KK took over after SS as Rishi’s voice and then post Laila majnu, Rafi became the voice or Rishi and that pair gave so many hits, so can you truly say after KK stopped singing, Rishi became a flop, I doubt it.

    Point 2: LoL L-P replaced Rafi with Kishore is really hilarious. I am amused at where these facts are coming from. L-P’s number one singer was Rafi, they used Kishore to be partial.

    Point 3: RD wanted to be different from the rest, which is why he needed a new voice and KK was perfect for his compositions. Rafi also suited his songs very well.

    Point 4: Discussing clones in pointless, Kishore could never reach Rafi’s level of singing because he never had the same qualities or range that Rafi had. Rafi covered a vast spectrum and a variety of genres, something Kishore was never able to achieve.

    Point 5: LoL again record stats is hilarious, Rafi sells more than any artist, and his songs are more in demand than Lata’s songs, a fact mentioned by Laxmikant before his death. Recently there was a poll mentioning that Rafi sells more than Michael Jackson does among the younger age group in India.

    Point 6: To each his own, Lata and Rafi are much above comprisons with any singer, they are the benchmarks of their field, recognized by the majority of musicians in the industry as the two greatest singers the indian film industry has ever had.

    Points 7, 8 & 9: All subjective points, based on no facts, so ofcourse again to each his own. Its nice to see a Kishore fan appreciate his talents as he was a great singer.

    Point 10: A song is composed with a singer in mind so in that sense no singer can sing any other song by another singer, but referring to the comment made, in this case all it means is that Rafi had such a range that he could attempt with ease all types of songs that other singers sang. Whereas others cannot easily attempt Rafi songs because of the degree of difficulty associated with them.

    I agree with Manish, Sholay would have been much better had Rafi been there, the fact is that the dialogue sold more than the music. Rafi is very popular among the younger crowd. The majority of MD’s used Rafi because he was the best in the business or else we would have seen history re-written differently.

  214. 214
    sudip Says:

    Prashant: Shant ho jao..

    “some body in this discussion put an absurd comment that rafi can sing kk song but kk can’t . I want to ask either they got call of rafi from heaven.”

    -Boss, for this we do not need rafi’s testimonial.

    1. Kishore himself did not think he did justice to “Salaam-e-Ishq” (Muqaddar Ka Sikandar” and “Waada tera Waada” (Dushman). In these cases, the saviors were the actors. Both Amitabh and Rajesh’s voice needed Kishore. I personally think Kishore sang them well. But we don’t know if the Music directors wanted those the way they got.

    2. Kishore had to shy away from Lata’s version of “mere Naina saawon bhadon”. His version does not have the haunting classical high pitch strains.

    3. “Humen tumse pyar kitna” (Kudrat) had to be simplified for Kishore. To anyone who understands music the Parveen Sultana version was way better. Rafi never shied away from any version, however tough. Kalyanji once mentioned that Rafi was the only singer (not even Lata) where they did not have to think whether he can actually sing the song.

    4. Nafrat Ki duniya (Haathi Mera Saathi) had to go Rafi’s way after 5 takes by Kishore. LP mentioned this number of times. In this case, even Rajesh’s presence could not save KK.

    5. In Raagini, it is well known that SJ thought the songs were not “Kishore’s cup of tea”.

    6. In “Pagey Ghungroo” (Namak Halal) the alaap had to be rendered by Ustaad Dilshad Khan. There was not a single song in rafi’s lifetime where alaap had to be rendered by someone because Rafi could not do it.

    Just 10 points do not make you any more logical than the KK fans out here. I can provide 10 points for each of your 10 points.

    Just a small clarification to KK fans: I love KK. I play KK in my car stereo. But extrapolating that to say he is the best singer of all time is ridiculous.

  215. 215
    myk Says:

    Rafi onwards from 1979-82 created a huge blitskerg of melodies. If he had lived I am sure it would have continued.

    The LP-Rafi combo was indeed great, many hits during that particular period as was the case from 1963 onwards. Rafi and RD was a big miss fter 1980 as P. Haldar had mentioned. One of Rafi’s best latter day composers was Rajesh Roshan, they had a lot of hits as well from 74-80.

  216. 216
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Here’s an excellent rendition of a Rafi song by Kishoreda. This song is GREAT in its own way, I don’t think the Rafi version overtakes this nor does the Kishore version overtake Rafi’s. Both are full of emotion and backed by great voices. Make sure you have real player:

    http://songs.kishorekumar.org/03_MANARE_TU_KAHE_NA.ram

    There are some that will pick one version over the other but IMO both are too good to really say. I wish Kishore had some more Rafi songs.

  217. 217
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Prashant: on point 3, Kumar Sanu was a great singer and I actually think he could hold his ground with three favorite songs of mine against any singer: “Tujhe Dekha” (suprise!), “Kisi Roz Tumse” (Pardes 1997) and “Yeh Kaali Kaali Ankhein” (Baazigar 1993). I’ve knowingly left out some other gems but these three are my favorite Sanu songs. It is unfair to call Sanu a COMPLETE subset of Kishore – he did eventually adapt into his own. I also think that another great singer could not OVERTAKE Sanu in those three songs.

    Nevertheless, I think Rafi would have sung the songs of “1942 A Love Story” much much better than Kumar Sanu.

    I also find it striking that you refer to KK’s style as “singing from the heart” against Rafi when indeed I feel it was Rafi who almost always sounded like he was singing a song from his heart and sometimes KK throated a song (maybe because his schedule was so busy).

    BTW…my new favorite duet of Rafi&Kishore: “Chor Sipahee” 1977

    Many times I see a duet of Rafi and Kishore and struggle to CLEARLY proclaim the better singer. Sure, Rafi wins more for me but the gap isn’t significant. This goes to show, at least for me, that I like Rafi a lot more because he was given better songs. Both did an excellent job for “Chor Sipahee” my new favorite, and my childhood favorite being Salamat Rahe Dostana.

    Part of the reason I’m particuarly motivated in this thread is because I missed commenting on the debate for the article “SRK wants to make a movie about KK” and I felt some KK fans were saying some unjustified things.

  218. 218
    salil Says:

    There is no comparission between kk and rafi. Both were masters of their fields and also there was no silly competition between them both respected each other. I only said that if on is a jem and other is diaomond.

  219. 219
    salil Says:

    There is no comparission between kk and rafi. Both were masters of their fields and also there was no silly competition between them both respected each other. I only said that if one is a jem and other is a diaomond.

  220. 220
    P. Haldar Says:

    Prashant, responding to point number 10, let me tell you that the comment is not absurd at all. Try a non-classical number like “Aaja aaja main hoon pyar tera” (some may say it’s based on raag pancham, though) and try to sing it in Kishore’s voice. Tell me if you could do it. RD could do it and that’s why he took upon the job himself in “Piya tu ab to aaja” and “Veera tara tara tara”; the only other male singer who could do it was …. (I am not using His name anymore, because, as Dron rightly pointed out, it invites the scorn of bigots). And, presuming you are a Hindu, listen to “Man tadpat hari darshan ko” (there’s a live version of the Aarohi program conducted by Naushad available on youtube). No Hindu saint would be able to have the effect that this singer had with two of the most important words in the Hindu lexicon: “Hari Om”. Why Kishore, you and I can also chant those two words; the question is will it have the desired effect? Of course, if you think Kishore’s Om Shanti Om is more divine, then there is no point arguing with you.

    And don’t keep talking about classical singers being better in classical singing than Him; everyone knows that. But it is quite another thing to take raga-based songs, limited to a maximum of six minutes, to the masses; that’s what Naushad and He did with Baiju Bawra. Go to any village in Gujarat, UP or Bihar and even common people are aware of these songs. And, as Robin rightly pointed out, don’t keep saying that KK is more popular than …. His name is revered throughout the world and His appeal transcends regional, national, religious and ethnic boundaries.

    You’ll have to also realise that we intruded into this site because His name and picture appeared in the article. We actually don’t have a feud with you guys; most of my fellow bhakts consider this to be an unnecessary distraction. The real battle is with someone else. Only time will heal the wounds we have suffered over the years, especially during the 1971-75 period, when the “matlabi” industry deserted the giant on whose shoulders it rode for 20 years and the way the hagiographers of the other singer (not your guru) are still trying to undermine Him.

  221. 221
    P. Haldar Says:

    Hi MAST MAST,

    He sang a song in your name too: Jawaniyan yeh mast mast. He sang this song 50 years ago for Shammi Kapoor in Tumsa Nahin Dekha and I’m sure you’ll like this song even today.

  222. 222
    P. Haldar Says:

    Manish,

    I am really glad that despite being born after the farishta passed away, you are His fan. May the tribe keep expanding.

    I want to make a couple of points, though. First, don’t focus too much on those Kishore-…. duets; while some of them are ok, most of them are the “Chal shuru ho jaa fata faat” kind. If someone thinks Kishore sang better in those duets, I don’t give a damn. But please do not ever compare Kishore with Him in songs like “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare”. I’ve heard Kishore sing this gem on stage and I’ve refrained from making any comments on it, because I know he did it in good faith and in the memory of his friend and idol. Lata has also sung this song in her Shraddhanjali series but I’ve decided not to listen to it. Amzad Ali Khan played this song recently in an FM channel as a demonstration of one of the best renditions of classical-based songs ever portrayed on screen. And I’d simply request you to leave songs like “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare” and “Man tadpat hari darshan” alone; these are highly spiritual songs and please do not attach any other singer’s name to these songs.

    I have no problems if you compare your favourite singer’s rendition of “Chor sipahee” or “Salamat rahe dostana hamara” with Kishore’s. The competition should be fair — there should be a level playing field.

  223. 223
    Joy Says:

    Manish seems to be a blind follower of Rafi, a bit too blind really:)
    If Rafi was as popular as Kishore I must say he must have his grey cells examined:) One can say IMO so and so is best singer.. for a million reasons one can like someone or not like someone.
    For these million reasons the majority of people in this world like Kishore more and thats why they buy more of Kishore.. Kishore sells more than Lata, Asha, Mukhesh and yes Rafi put together.. This goes to show that when the whole world is wrong it indeed is right:) offc ourse there will be the one odd man like manish who will be an exception and exceptions prove the rule !
    Most people feel the best singer is Kishore (for reasons as personal to them as can be) and thats the favourite singer of the world.. Though Rafi did rule till 1969 kishore has ruled happily ever after!

  224. 224
    dron Says:

    I also find it striking that you refer to KK’s style as “singing from the heart” against Rafi when indeed I feel it was Rafi who almost always sounded like he was singing a song from his heart and sometimes KK throated a song (maybe because his schedule was so busy)

    >>> No singer has had a schedule more busy than Rafi and not one song was throated.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  225. 225
    prashant Says:

    now i want to quote some recent news from times of india
    “Kishore da lives on – in music, remixes
    14 Oct, 2002 l 0302 hrs ISTlIANS

    NEW DELHI: Fifteen years after he died, Kishore Kumar’s unparalleled yodelling in Bollywood films continues to inspire countless remixes.
    ” Zindagi ko bahut pyar humne diya, maut se bhi mohabbat nibhayenge hum ,” he had once sung. He is doing just that – with his enchanting songs that continue to hold the present generation spellbound as were his countless fans during his heyday from the 1950s till the 1980s.
    What better evidence of this than the latest remix, “Kishore Da n the Daddy Mix”. It’s been a bestseller ever since its release earlier this year.
    So what is it that continues to make a Kishore song tug at the heart? Is it the timbre of his voice? His versatility? Or the empathy that came through as he sang?
    It is perhaps a combination of all three. ”

    according to some legendry (explained in kk biography)
    “Kishore Kumar’s was the second golden male voice that the film industry produced. , the first being that of Kundan Lal Sehgal. Besides being a singer”

    what i am trying to explain is the popularity of this legendry in this arena of 21st century.

    also if u r going again on notes and raga then u should always admit the fact that they(lata mohd. rafi and kk) are nothing compared to classical legendry like gangu bai hangal bhimsen joshi pandit jasraj etc….

    so bollywood singing is totally based on popularity not on the raga and notes. ragas are just used to give song popularity.how many songs of bollywood are totally based on a true raga very few all are derived from them. if raga is only criteria then hip hop , rock ,jazz , lok sangit doesn’t exist.
    even on raga and taal if u ask any expert manna was far ahead from these three legendry but not got the golden voice . so he was not best….

  226. 226
    Bapan Says:

    Well said,a nice article,ofcourse Kishoreda is the all time greatest.

  227. 227
    dron Says:

    according to some legendry (explained in kk biography)
    “Kishore Kumar’s was the second golden male voice that the film industry produced. , the first being that of Kundan Lal Sehgal. Besides being a singer”

    >>>> Who is Rafi then???

  228. 228
    dron Says:

    Kishore sells more than Lata, Asha, Mukhesh and yes Rafi put together

    >>>>>

    This is wishful thinking and a wrong statistic. Give a call to HMV and ask them the question. If you are a man enough then come back to this site and give the answer.

    Blind fans…..????

  229. 229
    dedu Says:

    Kishore sells more than Lata, Asha, Mukhesh and yes Rafi put together

    >>>>>

    This is wishful thinking and a wrong statistic. Give a call to HMV and ask them the question. If you are a man enough then come back to this site and give the answer.

    Blind fans…..????

  230. 230
    unknow1 Says:

    Dear prashant,
    KK was good singer they should write about him but they never say that kk was the best bollywood singer but when then say about Mohd Rafi they said no words to say on the greatness of Mohd Rafi….
    Do u think KK fans If there was no KK there was no RD or Rajesh Khanna or Mr Bachchan?but when Shammi Kapoor spoke about Mohd Rafihe said IF THERE WAS NO MOHD RAFI THERE WAS NO SHAMMI SAME SAID BY O N NAYAR and also great Naushand said Mohd Rafi was 50% of his music,SPB said when u listen to Mohd Rafi he think that he is not half singer…….
    Dear KK fans if we say black colour is white it will not be white because black is black and white is white……..

  231. 231
    Monty Says:

    Well said Manish Kumar, just heark kk’s ‘Man re tu kahe na…’, but he had failed totally to bring feelings as rafiji brought. Rafiji sang beautifully from his heart. Even lataji could not sing well this song.

  232. 232
    Monty Says:

    “An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi & Kishore Kumar”. See here also it’s Rafiji’s name first than Kishore Kumar… so…!!!

  233. 233
    ZIYAAD Says:

    MOHD RAFI IS THE GREATEST SINGER INDIA HAS PRODUCED INDIA MUST BE BE PROUD TO HAVE A SINGER LIKE MOHD RAFI WE SHOULD COMPARE RAFI WITH ANOTHER SINGER
    HE HAS SUNG DIFFICULT SONG VERY EASILY HE WAS SO VERSATILE I REMENBER A CLASSICAL SONG FROM THE FILM MRIG KRISNA THE SONG TITLE IS NAW KALPANA IF ANYONE LISTEN TOTHE SONG HE WILL REALISE THE FORCE OF MOHD RAFI
    SOME PEOPLE SAY THAT AFTER ARADHNA THE LEAN YEARS OF RAFI BEGAN I DONT AGREE WITH IT YOU KNOW HOW MANY HITS SONGS RAFI HAS DELIVERED FILM LIKE HEER RANJA WARIS HUMJOLI JAWAB SEEMA NAIHNA MEHMOOB KI MEHENDI AAN MILO SAJNA THE TRAIN HONEYMOON MILAP EKNARI DOROOP ROOP TERA MASTANA BENAAM JEEWAN MRITYU AAP AYE BAHAR AYEE LALLKAR GORA AUR KALA PARWANA AND MANY MORE ALL THESE FILM SONGS WAS HITS EVEN AFTER 1970 RAFI SUNG A HUGE NUMBER OF SONG FOR EXAMPLE FOR SHAMMI KAPOOR FOR THE JAWAN MOHABUTH HE SUNG FIVE SONG FOR SHASHI KAPOOOR HE SUNG SIX SONGS FOR THE FILM NATHC UTHA SANSAR IN LALLKAR THEIR ARE FOUR SONG AND MANY MORE IT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE THAT RAFI WAS OVERSHADOWERED BY KK HOW CAN WE FORGOT THE SONG FROM THE FILM SEEMA JAB BHI YE DIL UDHAS HOTA HAI I THINK THIS IS THE BEST SONG RAFI HAS SUNG IN THE SEVENTIES IN MY OPINOIN RAFI WSA THE THE GREATEST SINGER INDIA HAS EVER PRODUCED
    IT WAS THE MEDIA WHO WROTE MANY ARTICLES OF KK FAVOUR EVEN FOR THE FILMFARE AWARD THE JURIES HAS DONE UNJUSTICE TO HIM . IN 1980 THREE SUPER HITS SONGS WAS NOMINATED COMPARE TWO FOR KK . KK GOT THE AWARD FOR HAZAR RAHEN THE SONG FROM THE FILM KARZ DARD E DIL WAS THE NUMBER ONE SONG IN 1980 EVEN AFTER RAFI DEATH KK GOT FOUR AWARD IN A ROW SHABBIR KUMAR SUNG MANY HITS SONG. ONE THING I DONT UNDERSTAND SAGAR TITLE WAS AWARDED IN 1986 SUCH AN EASY SONG SHOULD BE AWARDED ANYONE CAN SING IT EASILY

  234. 234
    sudip Says:

    Prashant:
    Since you talked genres, in how many of these can you place Kishore?

    A. Classical/ Semi-classical
    B. Thumris and Ghazals
    C. Peppy/Rock
    D. Soft romantic
    E. Sad songs
    F. Qawwali
    G. Bhajans
    F. Patriotic
    G. Punjabi/Bhangra
    H. Folk

    Pls do the analysis yourself. We can take on from there.

    Do not tell me what Kishore COULD HAVE done. Limit it to what he has done. For that matter one may argue Michael Jackson COULD HAVE sung ghazals. The reality is he HASN’T.

  235. 235
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Prashant,

    Overall, I pick Mohammed Rafi as the #1 singer. His COMBINATION of voice quality, classical training, emotion and personality into a song, and sheer magic is unmatched. Some of those classical singers you mentioned probably are more skilled than Rafi, but they cannot match his melodious voice and so overall he trumps them. This is why I take Rafi over Manna Dey or Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.

    Btw…anyone who says KK was the second golden voice after KL Saigal without mentioning Rafi must have been in outer space for 20 years after Saigal. Unlike Kishore and Lata, Rafi not only met with Saigal, he also sang with him. Saigal said to Rafi, “The keys to the kingdom are yours.” Rafi said the same to Kishore eventually.

  236. 236
    Manish Kumar Says:

    The say that when you set to do something, the most important thing is that you LOVE what you’re doing. I absolutely love the songs of Rafi, Lata, and Kishore and enjoy discussing them – that is why I won’t have the keen knowledge of P Haldar but I’ll have enthusiasm for it. I’ll actually say that I’ve come to appreciate KK more after this thread after pouring my thoughts and rethinking some things and realizing.

    I think the reason I compared Man Re with KK & Rafi is because I don’t have the intricate knowledge to appreciate the fine points of a song. For example, I once proclaimed that I like Sholay better than Mughal E Azam and someone went on to tell me that you had to be aware of the history and times of Mughal E Azam to pick up the nuances of humor or comedy etc. (and Sholay to depreciate it). Since I don’t have such nuances, I wasn’t able to CLEARLY discern between the two versions. I also addressed this because at some other site a KK fan mentioned it as a better rendition.

  237. 237
    sudip Says:

    Kishore’s advantages:
    ————————-

    Kishore’s advantage (as clearly evident in this forum) was his image of “eccentric genius”. Nothing wrong with that, as long as we know how to dissociate such factors when we try to analyze singing abilities objectively.

    This is the same reason why people rate:
    1. Maradona/George Best higher than Pele (I also do, but leave out the “eccentricity” out of the equation)
    2. Ritwick Ghatak over Satyajit Ray
    3. McEnroe over Borg; Agassi over Sampras

    Let’s face it guys-we all are fond of colorful characters and love to romanticize in the aura of eccentricity..ECCENTRICITY SELLS BIG TIME!

    Eccentricity (Paglamo in Bengali) can add color to the persona, but has zilch to do with singing or the skill in question.

  238. 238
    prashant Says:

    dear sudip
    this is my answer
    1. classical (Kabhi bebasi ne maara hoo kabhi bekasi ne maara …from the movie Alag Alag)
    2. semi classical (Woh shaam kuch ajeeb thi-semi classical)
    3.rock (disco 82, disco 84 actually i don’t remember actual wordings but many song by bappi lehri)
    4. ghazal (“Na-Ashna Har Rahguzar
    Na-Meharbaan Sab Ki Nazar
    Jaayein Toh Ab Jayeein Kidhar, Main Aur Meri Awaargi”

    It’s called Awaargi. Written by Javed Akhtar, it was first used in the movie Duniya. Music, of course, was by RD. Some 10 years later Javed used the same ghazal in his album with Nusrat fateh ali khan saab
    also
    tum aa gaye ho is ghazal type where he suppressed lata ji
    5. soft romantic ( i don’t think that any body can overcome him in this field
    but let me put some song like
    chukar mere man ko from yarana
    chehra hai ya chand khila and many more
    6. sad songs ( why u r putting this type as he was really genius in it
    Mere mehboob qayamat hogi,
    Main shayar badnaam
    dil aisa kisine mera toda
    7.folk
    the best folk khaike paan banaras wala
    8.he used to sing bhajans in begali (this time its not in my mind but i will tell u later bhajans of hindi also)
    9.

    now tell me any singer who can sing these songother than love songs
    sad songs (as i discussed earlier so not making it point here) better than him

    1. inspiration (ruk jana nahi … and many more)
    2.Philosophical (jindagi ka safar…….
    aane wala pal jaane wala he..)
    3. cool or moody song(eena meena deeka….)
    4.duets with lata
    5.and last but not least yeodleeeyoooo type song

  239. 239
    Hussein Sheikh Says:

    Dear Unknow1, Ziyaad, Sudip, Manish Kumar, I am really proud of you all.
    Rafi Saheb is and will always be #1.

  240. 240
    prashant Says:

    Famous comment on kk
    • .Lata-Kishoreda was a samprn kalakar.He could sing any type of song easily.I have no words to praise this musical genius who is an institution by himself.
    • Asha-Kishoreda is the best male voice in Indian films.I have got greatest pleasure singing with him.Whenever I think of playback singers,I think about my elder sister and Kishoreda.
    • Pyarelal-Kishore Kumar was a brilliant singer,performer and comedian.Many of today’s singers like Sanu,Abhijeet,Babul Supriyo,Vinod Rathode & even Shaan tries to copy him.
    • Anandji-Kishoreda was a great singer,probably the only complete singer.He was a great human being also.We owe 90% of our success to him.

    • R.D- Kishoreda is the best male voice in our industry.He can sing classical songs better than any singer.The range,modulation & flexibility in his voice is best
    • Bapi Lahiri-Kishoremama is my all time favourite singer.He has sung so many songs for me.The range in his voice was terrific.He is also the greatest performer in the world.
    • Anu Malik-He was God.He has sung allmost 100 songs for me.

    • Kumar Sanu-Kishore Kumar is my favourite,my guru,like millions of others.His expressions and throwing was great.The way he has paved his way as the favourite singer in the hearts of many without learning music proves he is the best.

    • Abhijeet-If now a survey is taken,it will be seen that Kishoreda is still the no 1 to 10 among all playback singers,both male and female

    • Alka Yagnik-Everybody in my family is his crazy fan.If you see the C.Ds and cassetes in my car and house,you will see that there is an overwhelming majority of two names-Kishore Kumar & Lata Mangeshkar.
    • Rajesh Khanna-Kishore Kumar is my favourite singer. I owe the majority of my success to him.
    • Big B-I feel privileged & blessed to give lip to Kishoreda’s songs.

    FACTS

    • Salil Chowdhury,Hemant Kumar used Kishore more?KK had so many hits with R.D,S.D,K-A,L-P,Bapi Lahiri,Rajesh Roshan
    • He has also sang for Naushad in a 1975 film.

    • .He was also the voice of Dev,Rishi Kapoor,Randhir Kapoor,Shasi Kapoor,Sanjeev Kumar,Kishore Kumar,Mithun etc.
    .

  241. 241
    prashant Says:

    really bapan u r right i got information from the book

    also it is right that kishore fans are 40000 more than mohd. rafi9not counting smaller groups)in orkut

    kishore(largest club in orkut ) 69579
    rafi ( largest club in orkut ) 10967
    lata (largest club in orkut ) 15928
    mukesh (largest club in orkut ) 3064
    asha (largest club in orkut ) 2786
    manna (largest club in orkut ) 2443
    udit (largest club in orkut ) 2231
    puncham da (largest club in orkut ) 8414
    fact is clear he still got the largest pool of fans than any other
    if majority is liking then it got some point

  242. 242
    dron Says:

    Well said Manish Kumar, just heark kk’s ‘Man re tu kahe na…’, but he had failed totally to bring feelings as rafiji brought. Rafiji sang beautifully from his heart. Even lataji could not sing well this song.

    >>>>>> If some KK fans are living in fanrasies, I am soory to say that some Rafi fans need to relax.

    As I said before you guys and gals know a spec of the facts and the truth. KK sang this song as a mark of rememberance and respect in the memory of Rafi and not for commercial purposes and here i see you have ven started to compare his shradanjali. This is disappointing. Lata also sang it as a Shardanjali and she said ” These songs of Rafi are very hard to sing and now when I look back I can see he made it sound so easy.

    So please STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  243. 243
    myk Says:

    P. Haldar,

    I remembered the comment you made on SDB mentioning how Rafi and Kishore were his first and second reserves. A good friend posted the article in which that quote appeared. The article is on SDB from Filmfare, a Nov 1975 issue written by Raju Bharatan. I would like to provide the extract:

    ———————————
    “His fine sense of rhythm was derived from his experience as an ace tennis player. “Tennis is one game that requires you to be extra alert”, he use to say. “It helped keep my reflexes sharp. It taught me that in music as in tennis, there are two ‘serves’. If the first ‘serve’ fails, in the second you do not tryt something so flashy. Sometimes my first ‘serve’ click – as in ‘Hum bekhudi mein’ and ‘Kya se kya ho gaya’. At other times, the second ‘serve’ came into play. In Aradhana I tried both serves – Rafi and Kishore. This time the second ‘serve’ click. I had always had Kishore in reserve. Now he became my main singer.”
    If Kishore so emerged as the Voice of Youth, it was because Dada had discovered in his music the secret of external youth. “Aradhana may have mark my comeback, but the music of Guide remains my pride and joy” he mentioned. “The film’s theme offered me maximum scope. I found no limitation and I had our two best singers: Lata and Rafi.”
    ———————————

    It is clear SDB thought Rafi was the greatest along with Lata, and he wasn’t the only one. Also, SD mentioning ‘first’ serve could be because his favourite was Rafi although he also held Kishore in high regard as well. I notice a shift in SDB’s music, especially his rhythm post 1970. What is the reason for this ?. What rhtyhm patterns did SDB base his music on, was it Rabindra Sangeet or folk rhythms ?. Sudip, you can answer this question as well.

    You mentioned “Badi Sooni Sooni Hai”, it was RDB responsible for the recording, a song meant completely for Rafi, as well as the whole Abhimaan theme. SD knew the gift of Rafi and used it to great effect. It was RD who missed out in using Rafi to the maximum, although there are numerous gems from that combo.

    Also SD may have thought KK’s time had come which is why he switched over in the 70′s but he gave Rafi gems during that time as well. His ill health combined with Pancham taking over his recordings also tilted the balance in favour of Kishore.

    I think SDB was a complete MD, very talented, one of the all-time greatest. He was as good in composing classical based songs as he was in trendy music. He was also the master at folk music, I don’t think anyone could reach him at this theme.

    What are your views on all of this as well as SD compared to Pancham who was also a talented musician ?.

  244. 244
    sonali Says:

    Well said dron saheb. Kumar sanu has sang many of KK songs, how preposterous would KK fans find when Sanu fans claim he has sung better than KK.

    It seems these KK fans are running the “Kishore bachao Andaolan”. They keep rambling one thing over and over again. If there is any conviction and belief then say it once instead of repeating the same stale script.

    Lip service costs nothing. If you really love KK then donate to this site so that it can improve and survive and save the KK home that is in ruins and ignored. Shame on you.

    KK was a rich man and I guess he must have left lots of money behind him, why does not Amit Kumar use that money to repair the home.

    He goes on rambling in every show how his father was the number 1 singer from 69 onwards, something which the fans have taken off him in their ramblings and “Kishore Bachao Andolan”.

    I am amazed to see the level of insecurity in Amit and other KK fans that they need to resort to such hackned comments every time.

    Further they need to demonise Rafi and ignore his unmatched achievements in order to make KK look better. Another proof of their insecurity.

    Discuss the songs of KK and his singing takents rather than demonise proven legends like Rafi, the day you start putting this into action, that would be the day when you would stop insulting the fond memory of Kishore.

    So kindly stop this “Kishore Bachao Andolan”

  245. 245
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Joy,

    I certainly am an ardent fan of Rafi but I wouldn’t say I’m blind. I acknowledge that…

    KK’s voice suited Amitabh even better than Rafi’s
    KK rose to the top in 1969 over Rafi by merit and on fair grounds
    KK held his ground against Rafi on several occasions
    KK is more popular amongst the youth than Rafi, at least right now

    Rafi’s voice showed signs of wear in 1980 and that had he lived on (wish he did), he’d been similar to Lata. Excellent up till the end of the 1980s, a shell of himself in the mid 90s but still a force to be wreckoned with, and a poor version of himself in 2000 like Lata.

    I ALSO say that from time to time I get desensitized Rafi after listening so much and need a fresh voice like the public did in 1969 and then I resort to Kishore. I’ve said before that Rafi and Kishore enhance each other by serving as fresh alternatives to one another.

    Not sure about this last point, while Rafi unmatched versatility and could amazingly modulate his voice, Kishore’s deeper voice sounded a bit tougher at times and suited the action hero. Whenever Rafi did playback for an action hero, his melodious voice didn’t have violence in it whereas a deep voice could convey that. If Parvarish was action packed movie, Rafi’s melodious voice sounded peaceful and soothing whereas Kishore’s deep voice sounded confrontational (and indeed, in the duet “Hum Premi Prem Karna Chahe” Amitabh-Kishore are CONFRONTING Vinod Khanna who tries to appear innocent).

  246. 246
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Additionally, I consider myself enthusiastic about Rafi and Kishore (which in the most important thing in an occupation etc.) but I will say I have very little knowledge (and that doesn’t bother me, except maybe wish from time to time that with better knowledge I could appreciate songs better or KNOW of other songs that I love).

    Both the careers of Rafi and Kishore are like galaxies. Each singer’s career is ENORMOUS, and I’ve probably heard ONLY 500 of Rafi’s songs. Seeing that he has done over 5000 different songs, I have hardly hit 10% of the universe and there is MUCH MORE for me to see.

    Same thing with Kishore – he’s done over 3000 songs and I have probably heard only 500 songs (of course, as a child I heard him more than Rafi since he was a more common voice to Amitabh although my favorites were Rafi numbers). I have a long way to go. This sort of really takes away my authority on statements about Kishore or Rafi but from post #1 I said that my views are WITHIN ME and that they don’t supersede the views of others. Within my limited knowledge, whatever I say or conclude, is based on attempted logic, reason, and honest opinion.

    At the end of the day, music is free for all and you can appreciate it (even if not to the fullest extent) even without so much knowledge.

  247. 247
    Manish Kumar Says:

    That’s why I refrain from proclaiming Rafi’s BEST songs or Kishore’s BEST songs (because it is subjective, it is TOUGH to single out, and I’ve heard only a fraction of songs).

    While I initially started off as Rafi #1 clearly and Kishore second, I’ve changed my view. While I still see Rafi as my favorite and the best (based on all factors discussed before), I do feel I’d like Kishore more if he had the benefit of my favorite MDs.

    A great portion of comparison between Rafi and Kishore is like comparing apple to orange – you just can’t pick one over the other and that is what I say for many duets or similar songs they have done. For smaller portion like vocal range, popularity amonst MDs, etc. I do make easy comparison.

    I very much like both Rafi & Kishore – both needed each other IMO.

    I’m also an ardent admirer of today’s modern singers mainly Udit & Alka and think it is unfair to throw these guys out of consideration and say that they can’t compare to past legends. Udit’s voice belongs up there with the best and same with Alka.

  248. 248
    badir Says:

    Famous comment on kk
    • .Lata-Kishoreda was a samprn kalakar.He could sing any type of song easily.I have no words to praise this musical genius who is an institution by himself.

    $$$ Lata – A singer like Rafi saheb comes once in a while, he filled the void left by KL Saigal.

    • Asha-Kishoreda is the best male voice in Indian films.I have got greatest pleasure singing with him.Whenever I think of playback singers,I think about my elder sister and Kishoreda.

    $$$ Asha has said Sanju dutt sings as well as Kishore –you wanna quote this too. She is sanile.

    • Pyarelal-Kishore Kumar was a brilliant singer,performer and comedian.Many of today’s singers like Sanu,Abhijeet,Babul Supriyo,Vinod Rathode & even Shaan tries to copy him.

    $$$$$ LP : they swear by the greatness of Rafi. Pyarelal in a recent intterview. Rafi was way ahead everyone not only in his singing ability but also his ethics and kindness.

    • Anandji-Kishoreda was a great singer,probably the only complete singer.He was a great human being also.We owe 90% of our success to him.

    $$$$Kalyanji : Rafi had the most perfect voice and was technically the most correct singer. His songs for our films are very close to our hearts.

    • R.D- Kishoreda is the best male voice in our industry.He can sing classical songs better than any singer.The range,modulation & flexibility in his voice is best

    $$$$$LOL …RD had a bias, lets not go into that when everyone knows what SD Burman had to say about Rafi. RDB never said KK could sing classical songs better….this is hilarious. LOL>>>LOL>>> why did RD then ask Bhupendra and Mana to sing his semi classical tunes. Kishore was not equipped to sing classical…you know nothing, you are simply talking rubbish.

    • Bapi Lahiri-Kishoremama is my all time favourite singer.He has sung so many songs for me.The range in his voice was terrific.He is also the greatest performer in the world.

    $$$$ favorite singer, sure he was his mama after all..LOL

    • Anu Malik-He was God.He has sung allmost 100 songs for me.

    $$$$Anu Malik: I wanted Rafi sahab to sing my Poonam songs, he is the guru of singing.

    • Kumar Sanu-Kishore Kumar is my favourite,my guru,like millions of others.His expressions and throwing was great.The way he has paved his way as the favourite singer in the hearts of many without learning music proves he is the best.

    $$$$ yeah so what, aziz, anwar, shabbir, sonu,….udit …feel the same of Rafi

    • Abhijeet-If now a survey is taken,it will be seen that Kishoreda is still the no 1 to 10 among all playback singers,both male and female

    $$$$$ lol…..i am sure the survey will be done by KK fans like you within the Kishore bachap andolan club…who the heck is abhijit anyway.

    • Big B-I feel privileged & blessed to give lip to Kishoreda’s songs.

    $$$$$ BIg B: I did not sleep full night before the recording of the Naeeb song as I was so excited that i would be singing along a legend like Rafi.

    $$$$$$$Naushad, OP Nyar, Usha Khaana, Ravi, Chtitragupta, Mana Dey, Mahendra Kapoor, Shankar Jailkishen, Madan Mohan, Rajesh Roshan, Roshan, SD Burman, Ananad Bakshi, Sonik Omi….the list is endless including Kishore Kumar, if ine reads what they have to say of Rafi, one could not only write a book but realise that singing starts and finishes at one point, the one and only Rafi.

  249. 249
    P. Haldar Says:

    Dear Prashant, I thought some of Sudip’s questions were unnecessarily tough; other than C, D and E, I was afraid you wouldn’t be able to provide any answers. But your knowledge of music is amazing! You have been able to prove beyond doubt that KK is far superior to Rafi in not only pop/catchy songs, but also in classical songs, ghazals, bhajans, qawaalis, folk, philosophical, etc. And your idea of a soft romantic song: Chehra hai yah chand… And the best folk song: Khaike paan banaras-wala. Wow, what songs! God bless you.

  250. 250
    sudip Says:

    Prshant:
    If you classify “Kabhi bebasi ne maara hoo kabhi bekasi ne maara” as a classical worthy of mention, then all “Disco Dancer” songs are ghazals by comparison..This song is typically played in tea stalls in Calcutta with loafers humming it to impress bystanders. Anyway, I was not talking of isolated songs..I was asking you to rate Kishore vis-a-vis Rafi in these genres. Clearly he is nowhere among the top 3 in Qawalis, classical, ghazals, patriotic, folks and bhajans. Rafi figures among top 3 in all categories.

    And since you mentioned “Kabhi bebasi ne maara hoo kabhi bekasi ne maara” which to me was the worst rendition of this raaga till date, let me tell you Rafi had delivered the same raaga (Darbari Kannada) in exactly the same tune. The song is “Raha gardishon mein hardam” (Do Badan).

    Please listen to the song and compare the smooth notes with the rough edges in your Alag Alag song; you will find the difference for yourself. Even if you have the faintest knowledge of music you will appreciate the high notes in the antras. For a change try to rectify and prove that you understand something about vocal music.

  251. 251
    P. Haldar Says:

    Dear Manish,

    I have already cited some of Rafi’s famous ghazals and classical songs. In the soft (not “hnere”) romantic category also, he was the king. Because you like SJ, I will cite three gems that Jai composed for Rafi:

    1. Baharon phool barsao (Suraj)
    2. Yeh mera prempatra kar (Sangam)
    3. Teri pyari pyari surat ko (Sasural)

    The first one is one of the greatest romantic songs of all time. Rafi personally liked this song a lot and used to sing it at every concert. The second was composed by Jai with his beloved Pallavi in mind. Listen carefully to how Rafi recites “Haseena likhoon ya dilruba likhoon, Hairan hoon ki is khat mein main kya likhoon” before he starts singing the actual song. Note especially how well he conveys his “hairani”. In the third song, which was also a major hit, note how he plays with the words “chashme buddoor”. Every word he used to utter was worth its weight in gold. Listen to how he enunciates “Hari Om” or “Man re” or “Dil Jhooma” (Diwana hua badal…). As far as technical perfection is concerned, Lata and he were on par (or unees-bees, depending on whom you talk to). But when it comes to placing emphasis on certain words in the lyrics, Rafi was way ahead of every other singer, including Lata. That is why you still see that 27 years after his death, new generations of listeners like you embracing him. In short, the Rafi magic continues.

    Rafi added that extra touch to many other romantic songs. Listen to “Ek haseen sham ko” (Dulhan ek Raat ki – Madan Mohan) and see how he enunciates the word “sham”. Another great composition is OP’s “Aap ke haseen rukh pe” (Baharein Phir bhi Aayegi). Rafi’s stylized singing, along with a wonderful piano accompaniment, makes this song one of the best from the OP-Rafi combination. When you listen to and start appreciating the songs that I mentioned above, you’ll find that there is no need to listen to “Chehra hai ya chand” and songs of that ilk.

  252. 252
    prashant Says:

    actually sonali
    we are not running kk bachao aandolan but u rafi fan are doing this.
    reason kishore when start singing was no.1 (mukesh and rafi existed as playback singer then)and upto death was no.1 but when it come to rafi yes he was no. 1 after sehgal but BEFORE THE GREAT KISHORE.

    i don’t know why you again go to the songs sang by rafi like “ye duniya ye mehfil”. of course its mastropiece but if i start saying that could rafi sing the classic of kk like”zindagi ka safar”,”rukh jana nahi”, “mera jeevan kora kagaz”,and many more inspirational and philosophical songthen it look like a typical bollywood hero singing and no such emotion will come out. but its totally ridiculous as it has not be happened then how to comment on such thing and if you still think so then tell that seriously
    from ur heart can really rafi sing these song (inspirational Philosophical)

    again somebody is challenging me in this discussion about no. of hits
    so please man go to hmv t-series yash raj music and other you will be surprised to know that not kk not rafi not lata has highest no. of hits but its
    ASHA JI who got maxm hits in his side. the person singing more song will be getting maxm hits. and in 1969 to 1986 kk was ruling the chart and nobody was in his competition.

    also i would like tosay that don’t be aggresive as it’s just a discussion
    so don’t put some absurd comment

  253. 253
    myk Says:

    P. Haldar,

    Please write your views on the SDB extract I wrote earlier. Besides the RD-Rafi miss post 1980, another miss was SD-Rafi post 1976, what would the two masters have created then.

    Manish,

    Interesting analysis there, however I feel Rafi and Kishore definitely did not need eachother. They were poles apart as singers, there are many genres that Kishore could not attempt, which were a breeze for Rafi. In terms of voice and range the two are again very far apart. You mentioned their duets together, I feel it was always Rafi that sounded the more meledious of the two (as you mentioned). I also feel his voice never showed any signs of aging at any time.

    You mention that you were born after Rafi saab’s death, I am also a part of that group, for me it is Rafi all the way, he is the first and last word in music. You will be surprised to know there are quite a few younger fans of the great legend. I also don’t think we should be comparing Rafi and Kishore by Amitabh. I don’t consider AB as the greatest actor even though he was very popular, and there were stars before and after him, he is just an apple in a big basket full of other apples.

    Also, you mention Kishore’s rise on fair grounds, this is not true. A lot of luck went into it, as well as Rafi’s leave of absence for 8 months, and this has been mentioned before. However, there is a saying that give credit where it is due, and from Aradhana onwards, Kishore did prove himself as a great singer.

    I also don’t think its fair to compare Udit or Alka to any legends, particularly Rafi and Lata as their standards are very high. Udit is good but there are far better singers than him and I don’t find his voice unique. Alka is great, has a lot of talent, hopefully she can maintain her voice for the future as recently I have been finding a bit of wear and tear in her singing, maybe she needs a break.

    Prashant,

    Your examples and views are distorted and not based on any fact. Please provide examples based on fact if this discussion is to go any further, all you are doing is presenting things out of thin air.

  254. 254
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Prashant,

    I want to thank you for your enthusiasm and knowledge (I’m serious) of Kishore Kumar and your willingness to engage in this discussion.

    In my personal opinion, Rafi & Kishore were excellent live performers – they were for real and sounded just as good live as they did in the studio. The same can’t be said for many singers.

    I also think that Kishore Kumar was the greatest live entertainer of all time. I loved his antics on stage (where he plays with Bappi, does the impression of someone who’s lost his voice hahahahaha that had me rolling). My favorite KK performance is when he went to Wembley with Lata – some live versions were even better than the studio version!

    Rest assured that you’re idol Kishore Kumar will never let you down because he was THAT GREAT. That’s how I feel about my favorite singer – Rafi.

    Thanks again for your posts.

  255. 255
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Zindagi Ek Safar Hai Suhana

    You must not have heard the Rafi version of the song to say that he could not render that KK classic. In that song, Rafi’s voice was fuller and IMO had more emotion (then again he was doing a sad version). I had my South Indian friend who knows little Hindi listen to both and asked which voice was better. He said Rafi’s was fuller.

  256. 256
    dinesh Says:

    “Mohammed Rafi and Lata Mangeshkar were declared the best playback singers of the millennium while Majrooh Sultanpuri was bestowed with the honour of being the best lyricist”

    read link: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20000109/nation.htm#2

    ‘Even after 25 years of his death, Mohammed Rafi remains immortal through his songs. Music director Laxmikant expressed surprise at the phenomenal demand for Rafi’s songs. `No other singer, not even Lata Mangeshkar, has been able to attract such tremendous following. It’s almost as if he were still alive,” he once said.”

    Rafi’s unmatched tarck record:

    read link :

    http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/fr/2005/07/29/stories/2005072902280300.htm

    Hopefully this will bring in some sense for those who simply type anything without thinking and knowing the widely accepted facts.

  257. 257
    Anuj Says:

    Kishoreda is the singer of the millenium,genius of the millenium,I know it from net.

  258. 258
    robin Says:

    Anuj is definitely an “anuj” (baccha) as far as music goes. His primary source is the net. As someone mentioned before, it is the typical 20-25 year old fop that listens to Kishore and Himesh and uses the night club dance floors to make judgements on music. Most of them convert once they grow some grey hair and life becomes more than fun on the net.

    It is good to see Kishore Kumar beat Charlie Chaplin for the genius of the millenium.

  259. 259
    binu nair Says:

    No other topic will sell here than the comparison between
    KK and the legend Mohd.Rafi…

    This is becoming a bore subject….Waste; of precious time…

    Let s discuss why Javed Akhtar is not releasing the cash
    for the promised Kishore memorial in his hometown Khandwa…

    I am eager to know why Leena Chandavarkar or Kishore son
    Amit Kumar is not pulling out money from their accounts
    and spending it for a fitting memorial for Kishore Kumar…..

    Lets talk some creative things …… yaar…..

    binu nair….

  260. 260
    rafians74 Says:

    There is no comparission between kk and rafi. Both were masters of their fields and also there was no silly competition between them both respected each other.
    rquest the all music lovers plzzzzzzzzz dont use a /////////////// leng:

  261. 261
    binu nair Says:

    Some love the legend – Mohd Rafi,

    Some love the genious – Kishore Kumar……

    Few love Himesh…. not knowing whether
    he will survive the next few months….

    Folks Listen to the great works of our legends..
    Lata , Rafi & Kishore, Talat & Manna, Mukesh & Saighal….

    For, They are the sweet nectar of music and life
    to drown our joys and sorrows…… hopes and aspirations…

    for centuries….. to come….

    binu nair

  262. 262
    unknow1 Says:

    Dear prashant as u said Famous comment on kk
    I will say Famous comment on Mohd Rafi,
    lata Ji ,Singer like Mohd Rafi born obce in life time.
    Asha Ji. No one can win Mohd Rafi.
    Naushand ,no need to say anything boz we all knows.
    P from LP .said easy to make music for Mohd Rafi Lata and Asha boz what we made they will sing but other singer we make music the way they able to sing,L from LP said I don’t know how to make music without Mohd Rafi.
    RD said that his first song was singed by Mohd Rafi after listening his own songs he was thinking Is it my song or the magic of Mohd Rafi.
    OP Nayar and Shammi Kapoor,they said they are because of Mohd Rafi.
    there was vote in this site in this site and Mohd Rafi was link in same place file Mohd Rafi more than 70% and all other singer less tha 30% If i am not wrong u r KK was less than 20% plz ADMIN answer if i am wrong.
    Q1,Give one name who said that he is boz of KK?
    Q2,Why SJ said this song is not KK CUP OF TEA?
    Q3,Why KK gave music to Mohd Rafi?
    Q4,Why RD used Mohd Rafi in his first flims and after 1976?
    Q5.Can u give me RD best five songs?
    Q6,Why when Amit Kummar(kk son) singed Mohd Rafi song on Zee TV in programm called Yoodlee and he don’t able to sing it and people sing it again and he said no in other day?WHY?
    Q7,Why RD and LP used Mohd Rafi for Mr Bachchan and they never used KK for Shammi Kapoor?
    Q8,Why Naushand usrd KK only once?
    Q9,Would u give me SD best five songs?

  263. 263
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Q1: I totally believe that RDB wanted to be unique and that’s why he used KK as his main singer. RDB’s career revolved heavily around KK and when KK’s death lead to RDB’s demise. Kishore Kumar played a large hand in the rise of Rajesh Khanna (and vice versa – mutual relation) and Rajesh wouldn’t have the status he did without KK. Of course Rafi would do just as good playback, but Rajesh would be just another star out of the several dozens that the great Rafi sang for – he wouldn’t be unique.

    Q3: KK had tremendous respect and admiration for Mohd Rafi so he agreed to have Rafi Sahab do playback for him. I don’t think Mohd Rafi ever did playback for Kishore as a result of Kishore not being able to render the song (although granted, if KK was singing Ae Mohabat Zindabad hahahaha that’d be another story but I’m only discussing songs picturized on KK). For example, OP Nayar had Rafi replace KK to punish KK for coming late to recordings, not because KK couldn’t sing the song.

    Q2, Q8: While I personally don’t think anyone could have BETTER rendered “Nafrat Ki Duniya” than Mohd Rafi, I do think a singer as capable, talented and great as KK could successfully sing that song. And I think KK fans with tastes different than mine would like the KK version better. I’ve heard that KK got too emotional while doing the song and perhaps LP didn’t appreciate that. Remember that when Kishore sang “O Saathi Re” (my favorite KK song – a song I think NO ONE could have sung better – his rough voice in the song added an extra element of sadness IMO so his weakness became artistically a strength) he actually CRIED during the recording. Amitabh Bachchan attended the recording and did not understood – only later when AB had to act out the song did he appreciate the genius of KK.

    Additionally, MDs have bias towards singer (although when just about every MD prefers Rafi it shows how great Rafi was!) and that is a bit subjective and doesn’t necessary take away from the singer IMO. If I was a MD, I’d naturally like the Rafi rendition and give him all my songs. But someone else may not have ears like mine and prefer another singer’s. Besides, SJ and Naushad had a long time partnership with Rafi, they were inclined to him. To sing for Naushad, classical training was very important and it was more emphasized in the 1950s and 1960s (disadvantage to KK) than the 1970s where the trend of music changed. The peak times of Naushad and SJ (pre-70) and music values of their time were simply out of phase with Kishore’s abiliites. And KK just didn’t suit Naushad’s music but that doesn’t mean KK wasn’t great for other MDs. Right singer for the right composition – I just think Rafi’s crisp, clean, very melodious voice was better suited for the music of SJ but Kishore’s voice could suit other kind of music.

    Q6: Amit Kumar is no Kishore Kumar but I really appreciate his attempted tribute to Rafi. Btw, what song was he trying to sing?

    Q7: Shammi Kapoor’s time was up when KK hit the waves. What does it matter, he was THE VOICE for Amitabh!

    I feel compelled to be defensive of KK at times because we are invading this site, the KK fans are not properly defending the great singer IMO, and KK did have tremendous respect for Rafi.

  264. 264
    Manish Kumar Says:

    I’m a bit dissappointed with this discussion, it is too one sided :(

    If the this debate has been going on for more years than I have been alive, mustn’t it be a legitimate debate?

    This one sided discussion doesn’t seem to indicate that?

    I suppose people just love the natural voice of KK and remember him as the voice of the 70s superstars Rajesh Khanna and Amitabh Bachchan and that itself is enough to raise KK to such ranks.

    I for the life of me can never understand why Dharmendra was’t labelled a “superstar.” In Sholay, the makers were skeptical of Amitabh and it was Dharmendra who used his clout to convince them otherwise. Dharmendra IMO was superior to Rajesh Khanna in every way and I always loved the Rafi-Dharmendra combination – the two fit each other perfectly.

    I don’t think Shammi Kapoor fit Rafi perfectly as opposed to Rafi’s voice just being suitable for EVERY SINGLE ACTOR!

    The two most perfect fits IMO:

    Rafi-Dharmendra
    Kishore-Amitabh

    How I was Rafi sang in Sholay! I’ll never forgive RDB for depriving me of that, that is the only thing missing in Sholay, the only flaw in the movie.

  265. 265
    sudip Says:

    Manish:
    1. I think you have raised very good points. It is a legitimate debate; I think Kishore deserves kudos for one single fact-he could stand up to Rafi’s stature and dominate over rafi for few years..That without much formal training.

    2. I (like many others) was a Kishore fan too till I was about 20 (because in calcutta you are more exposed to Kishore songs), then I got increasingly more exposed and hence more inclined towards Rafi. I also think that Rafi’s songs carried more profound lyrics (because of Sahir, Shakeel, Kaifi, Hasrat) than Kishore’s (Anjaan, Indeevar and the likes), which I was able to appreciate only with age.

    3. I think this debate is one sided because of the topic- who is the best singer as opposed to who is the best entertainer? Kishore entertains me a lot-in parties, in cars, in picnics..I definitely have listener to “Khaike Pan banaraswal” ten times more than “Man re kahe na”.. But then I do not mix entertainment and music.

    4. Based on #3, I think more people LOVE Kishore. More people RESPECT Rafi. So one’s judgement would be split along lines of “entertainment versus music”, “love versus respect”. Love for Kishore is also accentuated by his “eccentric genius” image which, as I said before, markets well like Chaplin, Maradona, Ritwick Ghatak…

    5. Rafi touches me more than KK. In fact in sad songs rafi to me is at par with Mukesh. Mukesh prevails in low pitch, high bass sad songs, Rafi prevails better in high pitch songs.

    6. I really think KK damaged Bengali songs and with RD and Bappi possibly destroyed it beyond recovery. If Asha Bhosle being a Marathi can sing “ke prothom kache esechey” or Lata can sing “Ashar Srabon maney na to mon”, I do not understand why Kishore had to give Mumbaiya touch to bengali songs.

    I will now sign off..

  266. 266
    myk Says:

    Manish,

    Maybe the discussion may sound one-sided because there is never enough one can say or do to have a shot in matching any singer against Rafi. You cannot place any singer in his category, there is too much of a difference. It is one thing to say something based on opinion, but to mention and opinion and call it a fact with no backup, like many have done, will not result in a good discussion.

    Rafi sang the Shararat song because SJ felt Kishore would not be able to do justice to it, simple as that. Same for “Nafrat Ki Duniya”, Kishore was not capable of singing such a song which is why it ultimately went to Rafi, this is also true. Kishore sang the rest of the HMS songs, and for this last song, LP turned to Rafi.

    For me, being the voice of Rajesh Khanna and Amitabh is no big deal, there were stars before them and stars after them. Rafi also sang songs for them as well, and they also were big hits. If one is going to compare Kishore’s singing ability to Rafi’s with the help of these two actors, then such a discussion should not go on, because it is really hilarious.

  267. 267
    viswan Says:

    stunned to know that ther is arafi vrsion of zindgi ekzafar.never heard it.can any body post that song in utube?.i am akeralite. i know alot of people who worship rafi in the state.iam 43.i started regularly hearing rafi songs from 1984 onwards.i by chance happened to hear london programme of rafi at that time.alot of people also hear kishore songs.but most people consider rafi as a great singer alongwith yesudas.yesudas is also a gret singer.he is 70 or more now.even now he sings very beautifully.that is a very long innings.his sound is almost intact even now.i think ther is no other male singer in our country with such a long creer extending well beyond 70.i think only rafi songs could invade and conqer some of yesudas kingdom in kerala.,though ki8shore led several invasions to conquer the music lovers harts in kerala since aradhana.

  268. 268
    binu nair Says:

    Dear Manish Kuimar..

    YOU are spot ON…….

    R.d. Burmans scarce use of Mohd Rafi, hastened his downfall..
    Sholay missed Rafi songs when Manna Dey sang for the romantic
    lovable Dharmendra.
    In Seeta aur Geeta, RD used Kishores voice on Sanjeev Kumar…
    upsetting the trend……
    And R.D. Could not repeat the success of Kati Patang, Aap ki Kasam
    and few movies of early seventies. He was no Shankar Jaikishan nor
    a Laxmikant Pyarelal who could carry on the initial success….
    Did R.D.B antagonise RAFI fans and the music lovers?
    Can someone say WHY about two dozen films of RD BURMAN
    failed at the box-office?…. And , Why Laxmikant Pyarelal
    the nearest competitor scored hits after after in the seventies
    and eighties?
    Not to forget here that L.P. never left Mohd Rafi until Rafi saabs sudden
    departure in 1980..
    binu nair….

  269. 269
    Monty Says:

    Well said myk, I agree with you. Rafiji is the best singer of India. he’s still much more popular in India and abroad.

  270. 270
    unknow1 Says:

    Kishore made Amitabh famouse or Amitabh made Kishore??plz plz plz KK fans give me one name who said that he is because of KK??????IF I am not wrong in Music the KING was Anil Biswas in 1940′s in 1950′s Naushand Ali,in 1960′s was SJ and in 1970′s was LP after Mohd Rafi there was no king in music world.
    Rajesh Roshan said once that u r saying why we don’t give good music as we gave in 1970′s because there is no one like Mohd Rafi with us.
    how can give one song which singed by Mohd Rafi for Amitabh when Amitabh was superstar and the song is not super hit and same to Rajesh Khanna plz?
    Zamana jab talak ghata rahe ga Mohd Rafi har waqt yaad aata rahe ga
    By great Naushand
    Tujhe naghmon ki jaan ahle nazar yoon hi nahi kahte
    Tere geeton ko dilon ka humsafar yoon hi nahi kahte
    Dukhi the laakh fir bhi mutmain the dard ke mare
    Teri aawaz ki shabnam se dhul jate the gham sare
    Teri tano me husne zindagi leta tha angdai
    Tujhe baksha tha allah ne andaze maseehai
    Tu hi tha pyar ka ek saaz is nafrat ki duniya me
    Ghanimat thi teri aawaz is nafrat ki duniya me
    Mahfilon ke daman me sahilo ke aaspas
    Ye sada goonjegi sadiyon tak dilon ke aaspas.

  271. 271
    Manish Kumar Says:

    In all seriousness, where are all the KK fans??? Someone should show up, considering how truly popular KK is?!?!

  272. 272
    Rajesh Says:

    Binu Nair,how dare you used such words to the greatest music composer RD?RD is much much popular than any other music composer.And Kishoreji is undoubtedly the greatest singer and genius.His songs alone sell more than Lata,Rafi,Asha,Mukesh,Manna combinely.

    KISHORE KUMAR IS GOD,THE GREATEST AND MOST POPULAR SINGER OF ALL TIMES TO COME IN THIS WORLD ,RAFI IS FAR FAR FAR FAR BEHIND IN CLASS AND POPULARITY.

  273. 273
    binu nair Says:

    Few facts or opinions does’nt make it a truth…. All facts taken
    to gether – from 1947 to 1970 and from 1976 to 1980 about
    playback singing and about Mohd Rafi prove one point.
    That, there is no singer of Rafi saabs range or quality who
    strode the MUSICAL SCENE AS THE NUMERO UNO SINGER
    of the golden period of hindi music.
    In 1971 Rafi took many months break and MDs could not wait.
    According to Shri Shakti Samanta producer of Aradhana – thus
    Kishore Kumar reaped the benefit. It was good for Kishore and
    the music connossieours – as a change is always good…..

    Rafi then hit the stage, world tours, concerts at Goregoan and
    at Shanmukananda, which music lovers lapped up…
    And in 1977 Rafi saab came back with a bang….

    Similarly, Lata in the eighties went on a 90 day world tour
    and new singers got a chance as Mds could ‘nt wait and
    Laxmikant Pyarelal took new voices of Anuradha , Kavita and
    many others – displeasing the lady no end………. But this is
    another true story – for a discussion may be… As Lata also
    was slowly but surely SIDELINED….

    BINU NAIR…

  274. 274
    P. Haldar Says:

    I’ve provided below the links on youtube for six songs playbacked on Dev Anand, three by Rafi and three by Kishore, and all composed by S. D. Burman. We all have our own biases, but these songs capture the essence of playback singing. The songs are sung by the two greatest “playback” singers of all time, with the third sneaking in two of the duets. In this discussion, I was rather amused to find that Kishore fans didn’t ever mention “Phoolon ke rang se” (just listen to his voice in this song) or “Yeh dil na hota bechara” that are so quintessentially Kishore.

    Achhaji main hari: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAUAluS5_sg&NR=1

    Dil ka bhanwar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOB2q2wO62I

    Din dhal jaye hai: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJuK5K0zCa0

    Yeh dil na hota bechara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uTdB3Gwwfs

    Are yaar meri: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6uJtsxMDv0

    Phoolon ke rang se: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr2Bv7GucIY

  275. 275
    sudip Says:

    Since you mentioned youtube, I found the full LIVE version of “O Duniya ke rakhawale”…..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjNJjFminCs

    This is possibly one of the very few clips in youtube where the video quality does not matter. Just listen to the ease of scale transitions and the depth..He is singing from the navel (as Anandji mentioned) unlike Sonu Nigam and the likes…In one word…AMAZING..

  276. 276
    unknow1 Says:

    Dear Rajesh,
    I am better singer than Mohd Rafi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!i can say Yahoooo ,RD was greatest!!!!!!!would u please give me RD list of hit flims??KK made Mr Bachchan superstar if there was no KK there was no superstar in Bollywood!!!!!because there are only two superstanr first was Rajesh Khanna because of KK and 2nd was Mr Bachchan because of kk!!!!?if there was no KK there was no RD and SD also KK made LP!!!!!!!after 1980 there was not good musc because KK didn’t sing much!!!!
    I am not crazy dears jest I don’t know anything about singer when Mohd Rafi sing I think he is KK.

  277. 277
    binu nair Says:

    Mr. Rajesh…

    Please follow all facts which is the truth…

    RDB gave some promising musicals undoubtedly – but soon
    became stereotyped. Thus his music and films flopped around
    the eighties which saddended music lovers no end…….
    Meantime, Laxmikant Pyarelal who used to assist R.D.Burman
    along with Kalyanji Anandji were giving unmatched “VARIETY”
    MUSIC and surged ahead.. This is no FICTION… SIR…..

    I do not wish to demean R.D. Burman any time but facts haved to
    be stated…. they turn to be bitter for few, I am aware…….

    About your view that Kishore Kumar sells more than Lata,Asha
    Rafi, Mukesh and Manna dey is unbelievable and true fiction,
    a figment of your imagination…..

    Please prove it with statistics/numbers to prove it otherwise..

    I wait for it.

    binu nair…

  278. 278
    Monty Says:

    R.D. Burman’s music was copied from western tunes, he made great songs with Rafiji. No one here in London agree that Kishore Kumar sells more than Rafiji or Lataji or Ashaji.

  279. 279
    Unknow Says:

    Dear Rajesh ,
    Yes u r right KK was more better than Lata ji because when KK singed with Lata ji he had one Rs less than Lata ji!!!!why?!!!KK never singed for one Rs but Mohd Rafi was so cheap paid singer two songs only for one Rs…..

  280. 280
    Salil Says:

    Sir,
    Pl. stop these silly war of kk & rafi fans. There is no result or output for discussing who is great in both of them.

  281. 281
    shatadip Says:

    Guys I feel it is unfair to compare these two greats.

    Rafi no doubt was a true worshipper of music and got this kind of voice quality through sheer hard work and practice. His perfection of ‘sur’ and melody is beyond compare.

    But Kishore had Saraswati placed in his vocal chord. When he came to scene with his maverick singing and versatility he did make the peerless and invincible Rafi insecure for some years.

    However as I said both are great in their ways and to demean anyone would be blasphemous.

  282. 282
    DeV K Says:

    KISHORE KUMAR IS A LEGEND BEYOND COMPARISON. TO ALL THE RAFI FANS, I HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR RAFI AS A SINGER, BUT KISHORE’S GENIUS SIMPLY CAN NOT BE MATCHED. I LOVE THIS MAN’S VOICE, AND HIS SONGS MOVE & STIR YOUR SOUL. I LOVE & ADORE KISHORE KUMAR.

  283. 283
    Monty Says:

    Kishore Kumar cannot be greater than Rafiji.

  284. 284
    binu nair Says:

    For we Mohd Rafi lovers, his songs are sublime, out of this world.
    His conduct in life was – M A T C H L E S S ….. and spotless….

    Rafi saab lives in the hearts of millions of music lovers – all
    around the globe….

    Rafi Saab deserves the Bharat Ratna Award more than any
    body…….

    His immortal songs are the true friends of MANKIND and for
    Music Lovers.
    UNBEATABLE AND UNCONQUERABLE.. ..

    MATCHLESS ARE HIS WORKS……

    And lastly we Rafians will not compare Rafi saab with Kishore
    Kumar – whom we all love; no doubt about it…….

    binu nair..

  285. 285
    Monty Says:

    True Nairji, no one can be compared to Rafiji. As someone said, it’s a one side debate.

  286. 286
    Bapan Says:

    No one can be compared with Kishoreji,it is a one sided debate.Kishoreji could have easily sung Rafi’s songs,but Rafi could not even dream of attempting Kishoreji’s songs.And everybody knows Kishoreji is the most popular.Monty are you mad?Rajesh is right,Kishoreji’s songs are much much more popular and sells more than all other singers collectively.

  287. 287
    anonymous great Says:

    No one can be compared to Kishoreda. Leave alone rafi. As far as playback singing goes the slot of 1-10 is occupied by kishoreda rafi comes at 13 behind lataji and ashatai.
    Kishoreda ki had a great tonal quality he had a baritone voice that suited legends like amitabh, rajesh, dev like no one else.
    Rafi had a thin feminine voice that allowed to sing at high pitch but he struggled when given songs with low notes and ignorant people talk about his range.
    Filmfare a magazine which is still considered the last word on bollywood constituted RDB award in the memory of RDB but no such award has been consituted for for Rafi till date. Thus filmfare considers RDB a bigger film personality than rafi.RDB consirered KK greater than Rafi.
    Coz only a genius recognizes another.
    Take the case of singing talent programs.In Indian IDOl 1 and 2 no rafi clone has won till date . Same is the case with sa re ga ma pa.
    Indian Idol I was won by abhijeet sawant a self confessed kishoreda fan. Sa re ga ma pa was won by debojit another fan of kishoreda
    In all these programs, it is India who decides. These are hard facts which cannot be ignored by rafi fans.
    Rafi target audience is of the age group 45 and above and kishoreda all those below 45 especially teenagers. Even today if a country wide poll is done on who is India’s Greatest singer, I am confident that kishoreda will get 80% votes, and the remaining votes will go to all other singers, rafi i guess getting below 5% votes.

  288. 288
    Monty Says:

    Kishore Kumar himself had said that his favourite singer is Mohd Rafiji, that’s it! Now who are these Kishore fans??? Making useless “shor”.

  289. 289
    sudip Says:

    Anonymous:
    “Take the case of singing talent programs.In Indian IDOl 1 and 2 no rafi clone has won till date . Same is the case with sa re ga ma pa.”

    —What does it prove? Who is easier to imitate? Man, think logically before you write.

    –You are talking of low pitch (bass) singing.. Have you sung in your life? If so, try singing “Tumse Kahoon Ek baat” (Dastak) and if you can get past the mukhda you are great! If you think of modulation, try “Jawaniyan yeh mast” or “Pukarta Chala hoon main”. Again if you can get past the mukhda, you are great. In my college social a guy tried “Pukarta Chala hoon main”. He could not get past the mukhda.

    –How can you decide for the whole of India. Let us not get into the popularity and as I said if popularity is a measure of art, pornographic magazines sell more than Tagore..The who’s whos in the industry have voted number of times and Kishore has never topped them.

    – “Coz only a genius recognizes another”…So you do not consider Madan Mohan a genius or Jaikishen a genius? Shows your musical knowledge..If copying catchy western tunes is the only mark of genious, RD is the only one.

    –As I said, more people /*possibly*/ love Kishore but more people respect Rafi. If the baritone voice was an answer to all macho characters, why did the biggest macho symbol in Bollywood till date (Dharmendra) pick Rafi as his preferred singer? And let me tell you, your so called “baritone” voice can NEVER EVER sing “Abhi na jao chodkar” or “Din dhal jaye”… The result would be horrible! Try imagining this.

  290. 290
    sudip Says:

    Also Kishore’s fans are making a big deal of the “no classical training bit”

    -True Kishore had minimal (not zero) classical training. But what’s teh big deal. He did not sing any great classical numbers either. If you make a list of 50 top classical songs in films, no KK song would come in the list.

    Rafi being a humble, introvert and conventional person never had any cheap publicity. Otherwise it IS INDEED A BIG DEAL THAT HE COULD RENDER SUCH EXPRESSIONS WITHOUT ANY ACTING BACKGROUND.

    1. How can a person who did not touch a single drop of liqour sing “Mujhe duniyawalo” or “Arey sambhalo” or “Chalkaye Jaam” or “Peete Peete kabhi kabhi”?

    2. How can a person who NEVER indulged in romance (unlike KK) could sing romantic numbers like “Yeh mera prem patra” or “Main kahin kavi na” or “Tere aakhon ke siva”?

    3. How can a person who was never ditched or never lost his wife (again unlike KK) sing “Chirag dil ka jalao” or “Meri awaaz suno” or “Din dhal jaye”?

    As anonymous said (inadvertantly confessed) Kishore Kumar craze is just a passing pase in life (I had that too). When you are 25, when you try to impress girls with your so-callled baritone rendition and yodelling, when you think life is all about machoism and fun, you listen to Kishore.

    When you have grown some maturity, have come to terms with the grim realities of life, have grown out of infatuation into true love, have lost few of your near and dear ones, have broken relationships, you listen to Rafi or Mukesh..

    Rafi is a singer for all seasons-fun, frolic, pensive, sorrow…The so-called “baritone” voice can only entertain, NOT SOOTHE…

  291. 291
    sudip Says:

    #

    Anonymous:
    “Take the case of singing talent programs.In Indian IDOl 1 and 2 no rafi clone has won till date . Same is the case with sa re ga ma pa.”

    —What does it prove? Who is easier to imitate? Man, think logically before you write.

    –You are talking of low pitch (bass) singing.. Have you sung in your life? If so, try singing “Tumse Kahoon Ek baat” (Dastak) and if you can get past the mukhda you are great! If you think of modulation, try “Jawaniyan yeh mast” or “Pukarta Chala hoon main”. Again if you can get past the mukhda, you are great. In my college social a guy tried “Pukarta Chala hoon main”. He could not get past the mukhda.

    –How can you decide for the whole of India. Let us not get into the popularity and as I said if popularity is a measure of art, pornographic magazines sell more than Tagore..The who’s whos in the industry have voted number of times and Kishore has never topped them.

    – “Coz only a genius recognizes another”…So you do not consider Madan Mohan a genius or Jaikishen a genius? Shows your musical knowledge..If copying catchy western tunes is the only mark of genius, RD is the only one.

    –As I said, more people /*possibly*/ love Kishore but more people respect Rafi. If the baritone voice was an answer to all macho characters, why did the biggest macho symbol in Bollywood till date (Dharmendra) pick Rafi as his preferred singer? And let me tell you, your so called “baritone” voice can NEVER EVER sing “Abhi na jao chodkar” or “Din dhal jaye”… The result would be horrible! Try imagining this.

    Also Kishore’s fans are making a big deal of the “no classical training bit”

    -True Kishore had minimal (not zero) classical training. But what’s teh big deal. He did not sing any great classical numbers either. If you make a list of 50 top classical songs in films, no KK song would come in the list.

    Rafi being a humble, introvert and conventional person never had any cheap publicity. Otherwise it IS INDEED A BIG DEAL THAT HE COULD RENDER SUCH EXPRESSIONS WITHOUT ANY ACTING BACKGROUND.

    1. How can a person who did not touch a single drop of liqour sing “Mujhe duniyawalo” or “Arey sambhalo” or “Chalkaye Jaam” or “Peete Peete kabhi kabhi”?

    2. How can a person who NEVER indulged in romance (unlike KK) could sing romantic numbers like “Yeh mera prem patra” or “Main kahin kavi na” or “Tere aakhon ke siva”?

    3. How can a person who was never ditched or never lost his wife (again unlike KK) sing “Chirag dil ka jalao” or “Meri awaaz suno” or “Din dhal jaye”?

    As anonymous said (inadvertantly confessed) Kishore Kumar craze is just a passing pase in life (I had that too). When you are 25, when you try to impress girls with your so-callled baritone rendition and yodelling, when you think life is all about machoism and fun, you listen to Kishore.

    When you have grown some maturity, have come to terms with the grim realities of life, have grown out of infatuation into true love, have lost few of your near and dear ones, have broken relationships, you listen to Rafi or Mukesh..

    Rafi is a singer for all seasons-fun, frolic, pensive, sorrow…The so-called “baritone” voice can only entertain, NOT SOOTHE…

  292. 292
    binu nair Says:

    Dear Anony-mous:

    What is your name and who are you… You can hide your name
    and identity : but let me tell you :

    Y o u have a mentality and an attitude of a frog in the well…
    ur musical standards and write – up is laughable ……
    and lastly…. thanks for the GOOD JOKE AS STATED ABOVE..
    binus….

  293. 293
    Bapan Says:

    Well written anonymous great,if Kishoreda is Bradman,Rafi is not even a child cricketer.
    HAIL KISHOREDA,THE GREATEST OF ALL.

  294. 294
    ashu Says:

    Mr. Haldar,

    Pls. listen song from movie “Pyar Kiye ja”. Rafi sang for Shashi Kapoor. Song was like this “RAMLAL MURDABAD…”
    He really spoiled the songs. His voice not at all suits wheh he utters RAMALA MURDABAD.

    Its pathetic.
    No doubt Rafi was one of the legend, but he could not touch Kishore’s talent and energy. It is proven from 1969 – 1987. It is history.

    ashu

  295. 295
    P. Haldar Says:

    Ashu, tu idhar bhi aa gaya? Homework diya tha, abhi tak khatam nahi kiya. Tu homework pahle complete kar, uske baad main jawab doonga. Please don’t say your dog has eaten up your homework. In any case, here it is again:
    —-

    And here’s a homework assignment for you; take your time because you’ll need it. Among the many Dev Anand films that Rafi sung in, I’ll mention only one and that too a non-SD film. The film is Hum Dono and the music was composed by Jaidev, SD’s assistant. There are three Rafi songs in the film, two solos and one duet:

    1. Main zindagi ka saath nibhata chala gaya
    2. Kabhi khud pe kabhi halat pe rona aaya
    3. Abhi na jawo chhod kar (with Asha)

    The first part of your homework is to figure out which Rafi sang each of the songs. The second part is a little more difficult. Go through the archives of all Dev Anand films (doesn’t matter who the MD is) and give me one film where Kishore has three songs whose combined impact comes anywhere near that of the three mentioned above. This is your home turf. After all, Kishore is Dev’s voice!

  296. 296
    Sanjay Says:

    Kishore Kumar had a superior voice to Mohd Rafi – even in terms of musical techniques. His deep, barritone voice meant that his voice had SUPERIOR TONAL quality to Mohd Rafi and this meant that he sounded more enunciated. This is one quality of Kishore Kumar that allowed him to make songs, be it just about any song – popular. Listen to the songs from Sharabi, the song from Ram Balram (Humse Bhool Hogaya), and even Khaike Pan Banaswala – he has such a POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING voice that adds energy and clarity to the singing that Mohd Rafi cannot match. Those three words in capital cannot be used to describe Mohd Rafi – can Rafi fans dispute this? Rafi had a moderate voice but it didn’t have the same ENERGY or RESOUNDING TONAL quality of Kishore Kumar.

    Yes, Udit Narayan is a singer closer to the Mohd Rafi school. I agree with above posters that he is a great singer (not some ordinary SaReGaMa contestant) and so he took his hand at the KK song. He couldn’t recapture the magic because he, like Rafi just doesn’t have the words POWERFUl, BOOMING, ENERGETIC that is reserved for Kishore Kumar. It is for these reasons that Kishore Kumar reigns supreme with just his voice and no training. Could Mohammed Rafi, LP’s favorite singer, have sung the song from Mr India “Kaate Nahi Tak Ye Din Ye Raat” – no you needed the energy of Kishore Kumar. Mohd Rafi would not have been able to do this song justice.

    Mohd Rafi was technically a great singer but his voice wasn’t naturally AS ENERGETIC or as great in TONE (things I consider very important) as Kishore Kumar’s. What is even more amazing about Kishore Kumar is that despite having such a heavy, powerful voice, he could have MELODY too! That’s one advantage about Rafi and his soft / light voice – he was a little more melodious maybe because it was easier to switch around notes with such a light voice.

    Mohd Rafi tried to compensate for his moderate / light voice by shifting into high pitch. In the duet “Mere Dildar Baankh Pan” Kishore shows stronger tone and Rafi tries to compensate by shifting to a higher pitch but it doesn’t have the same effect and it sounds somewhat strained and highly efforted.

    Rafi didn’t always have a soft voice but mostly his voice wasn’t nearly as strong as Kishore’s. Yes, in the song “Tu Hindu Banega” or …trouble thinking of more he showed a strong voice.

    Listen to his song , “Kaise Jeet Lete Hai Dil Kisika” it is a great song because Mohd Rafi, for all his soft voice, is technically very sound and does indeed have uncanny magic in his voice, but his tonal qualit is just not there. The words sound as if they’re of LIGHT THREAD – each word isn’t as emphasized as they would be with Kishore’s booming voice – it is a like a long, smooth blur. Yes, Rafi was good for his times. He was good for his times when music didn’t require the energy of Kishore Kumar till later (Rock, machines etc).

    MOHD RAFI FANS: Give me a list of songs where Mohd Rafi shows strong tonal quality, where his voice is booming and resounding, where the words themselves are CLEARLY enunciated, and the song doesn’t sound so efforted. “Kaise Jeet Lete Hai Dil” is a great song but doesn’t have those qualities. Bura Mat Suno – not the same tonal quality as Kishore. Dildar Baankh Pan – voice sounds worn and efforted.

    Give me a list of Rafi’s energetic, booming sounds. I await.

  297. 297
    Sanjay Says:

    While Khaike Pan Banaraswala may not be as musically touted as Dard E Dil, it was more popular because of the energy in Kishore’s voice. KK made that song a hit – anyone else like Rafi or Udit Narayan would have failed.

  298. 298
    Sudip Says:

    Sanjay
    First let me congratulate you for the FIRST KNOWLEDGEABLE POST BY A KK FAN.
    But, what is “POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” to you can be “LOUD, HOARSE and INAPT” to someone else. To me romantic and sad songs are NOT meant to be “POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” and that is where Kishore fails. It can create superhits but does not capture the mellow and closeness that is so necessary in romance.
    If you really talk of melody and barritone voice talk of Hemant Kumar (or Hemanta Mukherjee) or Mehdi Hasan. They are deep but not out of melody.
    If you go by the “masculine, barritone” yardstick, then Talat Mehmood is no singer at all. I am surprised why he is called “King of Ghazals”. In the same yardstick Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is crap! Rahat Fateh Ali Khan is a novice!

    I agree with you on your observation on “Mere dildar ka bakhpan”. This is one song where I think Rafi could have done better. I think because Kishore started the song, he set the tone and set the frequency to his comfort zone. Though in the antara where there is a small yugalbandi, Rafi catches up and Kishore oversimplifies the “jawabs”.

    I think this debate is never going to end. Simply because, if you love deep, barritone voice you got to love Kishore and hate Rafi. If you love sweet, melodious voice you got to love Rafi and dislike Kishore.. There is no middle ground.

    But to answer your question on Rafi songs that have strong tonal quality. The answer is simple: ALL-depnds on what you are looking for. But since you possibly mean deep, low bass singing, I will name a few :

    1. Kabhi Khud pe
    2. Suhani Raat Dhal Chuki (it is amazing that this tonal quality was demonstrated in 1949, when instrumental aid was non-existent)
    3. Jab Mohabbat Jawan Hota hai
    4. Main nigahen tere chehre se hatayoon kaise
    5. Aapne yaad dilaya to mujhe yaad aaya
    6. Hui shaam unka khayal aa gaya

    Now let me give you 5 more songs that will just sound HORRIBLE and HOARSE in “”POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” voice.. Since you seem to be the first and only knowledgeable person in the KK camp, I would like you to comment on how KK’s natural voice would sound in these:

    1. Abhi na jao chod kar
    2. Door rehkar na karo baat
    3. Thehriye hosh mein aa loon to chale jayega
    4. Tum se kahoon ek baat
    5. Aaja tujhko pukare mera pyar

    You will always find some odd Rafi songs because Rafi was given all kinds of songs while MDs protected KK within his comfort zone.

    It is interesting that you find Rafi strained while all MDs ranging from Naushad to A.R Rahman feels otherwise (effortless scaling). Of the current day music directors, Rahman, Shantanu Moitra, Ismail and Vishal Sekhar swear by Rafi.

  299. 299
    Sudip Says:

    Im sorry for 3 posts..It was not to create more momentum for Rafi-blame it on my browser :-)

  300. 300
    P. Haldar Says:

    Dear Ashu, homework ke liye extra time chahiye kya? Theek hai, tension maat lena. Sawal thora asan kar doon kya? Shashi Kapoor aur Kapoor khandan ka baat chhor; Dev Anand hi kaafi hai hamare liye. We believe in fair competition. Hints chahiye to zaroor batana, hna? In the meantime, Dev ka aur ek gaana bhej raha hoon tumhare manoranjan ke liye. Yeh gana ki dhun Jaikishan ne banaya tha 1959 mein. Bahut hi pyara tha Jai; Rafi saab Jai ko chhote bhai se bhi zyada pyar karte the. Yeh gana ka music Sebastian ne most probably arrange kiya tha. Sebastian ka naam soona? Many in the music world consider him the best in the business. Sebastian D’Souza. Tujhe thora thora history bata raha hoon; theek se homework kar, sab seekh jayoge. Aur yeh sab legends ko izzat karna sikhoge. Jai passed away before he reached 40; he became a legend when he was 17. Ab gaana soon:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=0okwnJkLVB0

  301. 301
    binu nair Says:

    Sanjay ji….
    It is the melody than counts…. you cant become besurra…..
    if you are a great singer…. Confidence is one imp. thing in
    any job… Rafi saabh took up the challenge and sang all type
    of songs – immortalising them… He never would say : give
    this song to xyz.. since I cannot sing it….. u know why I am
    saying this…here..
    Two facts here: The producers and distributors would always
    dictate terms to the composers. They would say : We want
    Rafi saab as the male play-back. , they knew the saleability
    and the long term shelf life of RAFI songs… this went on for
    almost three decades in the hindi film industry….

    Secondly, the song Mana re tu kahe na dheer dhare .. is voted
    by eminent new and yore music personalities as the best Hindi
    song of the last 50 years in an OUTLOOK SURVEY last year….

    More , the songs : Mana tadapat…, to Ganga ki mauj…
    Bhagwaan… Oh duniya ke rakhwale…. and many other are
    pure gems : and if any singer on this earth can sing these :
    in RAFI-isque style, with emotions, feelings, diction, and everything
    else included then I will bet and lose my – last penny….

    More, Mohd Rafi-Lata has been voted the best singers of last
    century by the Times of India Publications – survey….
    So your lords voice tenor does not merit any discussion …and does
    not hold water…
    binu

  302. 302
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Sanjay,

    I think you’re absolutely right to say that some songs Kishore could sing better than Rafi. However, this has been addressed before, P Haldar mentioned in his first post that there is the “Kishore Dimension” of songs where yeah, Kishore sings better than anyone – including Rafi. All the songs you mentioned fit exactly that category. Do bear in mind though, that many of those songs come from RDB and Bappi – these two composers composed the song with KK specifically in mind – so the songs are INHERENTLY in favor of Kishore. Nevertheless, this is a very limited category and there are a great number of songs where I think Rafi can sing better. At the same time, I am always doubt ful to discount a great singer like Rafi. While I agree with you that no one could have sung Khaike Pan better than KK, I’d still give a great singer like Rafi a slim chance of pulling off an upset (one can never discount his magic). Never count out a great singer. Case in point: Zindagi Ek Safar Hai Suhana. I never knew there was a Rafi version for a long time. Always thought that KK’s version could never be beat. Then I hear Rafi version and I’m swept away but its superiority.

    As for Rafi having a “weak” tone: that’s totally unfair. In many Rafi-KK duets the two had equal tone. In Zindagi Ek Safar (btw, I’ve said this many times, I liked Rafi’s version MUCH BETTER) Rafi shows better tonal quality in fact. I think some more knowledgeabl posters will give you a nice list where Rafi’s tone is great but here’s a Rafi-Lata gem that I like where he sings in a strong voice.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b52lLgeG8Ww

    Coincidentally, the song IS in high pitch but that is NOT to compensate for softness, the voice itself is strong in Rafi here. You should never try to generalize his voice – it was very versatile and he could modulate like no other.

  303. 303
    Manish Kumar Says:

    We talking about KK singing a limited number of songs better than Rafi does bring up the point that we NEED ALL SINGERS and can’t live with just one. While I rate Rafi as greatest, I need KK too – he makes my life and my musical collection better. Right singer for the right song. My most recent favorite KK song is “Agar Tum Na Hote” I can only enjoy it so much thanks to Kishore! India is superior to USA in two things at least: food and music. What a great tradition of vocalists India has!

  304. 304
    binu nair Says:

    Dear Manish:

    Some writers here are in the constant habit of putting the
    cart before the proverbial horse : they are bent upon comparing
    Mohd Rafi with Kishore : with half baked statements and a few
    facts…… Kishore has some very good songs and we love him
    for that..
    However these half knowledge wordsmiths can never in their
    entire lives be able to mar the legend Mohd Rafi’s 36 years of
    contribution to the Indian Music Industry….

    binu nair

  305. 305
    sudip Says:

    If “POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” is the only yardstick, then:

    1. Kishore Kumar is the best singer for all regional music as well. I do not know how many South Indian songs Kishore has sung, but I doubt if any South Indian singer was as ““POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING””!!

    2. Kishore is by far the best Bengali singer ahead of Dhananjay, Satinath, Manna, Hemanta, Manabendra. None of them was as ““POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING”. How many KK fans agree to that?

    3. Yes KK was God-gifted. That’s why anyone with the same vocal quality would sing exactly the way KK sang. Case in point: Amit Kumar. I personally DO NOT FIND ANY DIFFERENCE between Amit and his dad, except that his dad was more focused and hence was a legend.
    If someone had exactly the same vocal quality of Rafi, he would not be Rafi. Because Rafi was not all about vocal quality. As Lata said “his taan and harkatein were inimitable”…Rafi’s strength lay in his “taan and harkatein”-the ability to play with words, feelings, maatras.

  306. 306
    P. Haldar Says:

    When He Sang Arrey Rafta Rafta Dekho
    This is an eyewitness’s account, in the person’s own words.

    Calcutta ke ek show mein Kishore Daa aur Rafi Sahab ek saath maujood the. Rafi sahab gaa kar utre aur Kishore ji stage par aaye….logon ne hangama kar diya, wo sirf Rafi Sahab ko sunna chah rahe the….log badtameezi par utar aaye na jane kya kya phenkne lage aur uchhalne lage….
    Rafi saab, fauran green room se nikal kar aaye aur bole theek hai main gaata hoon….aur gaana shuru kiya ‘arey rafta rafta dekho aankh meri ladi hai….’

    Do liney gaa kar logon se request kiya ke doosron ko bhi sune wo bhi itni door se aapka dil behlane ke liye aaye hain.

    Aur jo do lines gaaeen wo aap sabhi jaante hain ke kishore ji ke gaaye huye gaane ki hain.

  307. 307
    P. Haldar Says:

    The eyewitness in my previous post was not me; I found this anecdote on another website. I found it hugely amusing because I’ve had similar experiences at Rafi-Kishore concerts in Calcutta. In fact, I told you earlier that organizers of concerts used to keep Rafi as the last performer, for fear of crowd trouble. From the comments of some of my Bengali brothers and sisters, it seems Calcutta has changed now. And, my fellow Rafians, let me tell you something that you are mistaken about — there is no one more popular than Rafi. If you consider that he was at his creative best till around 1971, it’s been 36 long years and yet generations upon generations of listeners adore him, Orkut and FM channels notwithstanding.

    Whenever he came to Calcutta for concerts, police used to be deployed in large numbers. The junta really used to go wild at his very sight. Some used to wait for Rafi1 to sing, some for Rafi2, and quite a few for Rafi4. He was four singers rolled into one. In 1974, when he came to sing at Kala Mandir, there was lathi charge outside the auditorium. In the following day’s Anandabazar Patrika, one of the headlines was “Ey monihar amar nahi saje”, the first line of the famous song that Tagore wrote after winning the Nobel. Apparently, Rafi had sung this line to the reporter who was interviewing him. It was my fervent hope that one day he would cut a Rabindrasangeet disc but that was not to be.

    Kishore was not only great, he was unique. I can only have respect for a singer who displaced the mighty Rafi, albeit for five years, a feat that no other singer was able to accomplish. But if you take the entire gamut of songs, it’s always going to be Rafi. I’m sure Talat and Mukesh were better in some dimensions, but overall, if you consider everything, there can be only RAFI! As Manna-da so aptly remarked, “No one can touch Rafi”.

  308. 308
    shridip Says:

    Kishorda is the best.

    If the classical music training and knowledge are important in film songs, most of the songs were sung by Pt. Jasraj, Bhimsen Joshi etc. Nobody remembers Md. Rafi today.

    The songs which touches the heart of people are considered the best. Kishorda is far better than Rafi in this manner. His voice contained heroism itself, nomatter for whom he was plybacking.

    If Kishorda has started his fulfledged career earlier even Rajendra kumar or Shammi kapoor etc. could touch the heights of Amitabh bacchan and Rajesh Khanna.

    Our modern filmy music is the gift of tradition Kishorda has set. I can say that singers like Amit Kumar, Kumar Sanu, Abhijeet are following the tradition of Kishorda. Udit narayan, Sonu Nigam etc. have voice tone like Md. Rafi but they also are following the tradition of Kishorda only. Md. Rafi has not set any tradition. He was singing filmy songs in a classical tradition. He was neither the best classical singer nor best filmy singer.

    Why Md. Rafi was so famous and considered as a legend? Because he was a “Ujjad gamma erando pradhan” in starting of the Indian film industry. This Gujarati proverb means – In the area where no trees or vegetation are there, people find even the ‘erando (Not so usefull tree)’ as the best. I truly believe that those music directors or singers who every time raise the flags of classical singing in filmy songs are super ficious. If we put them in classical music industry (having great personalities like Hariprasad Chorasiya, Shiv Kumar Sharma, Zakir Husain etc.) they will be prooven as rejected pieces of trash.

    So stop commenting that Rafi has greater music knowledge and greater voice quality. His voice is like a dove. Ghu, ghu…..

  309. 309
    binu nair Says:

    Met Usha Timothi the other day who accompanied RAFI saab
    for 38 – world tours apart from indian concerts.

    In one concert in A.Pradesh, there was a large crowd creating
    a stampede in yet another sold out show.. she said…
    Rafi saab called the organisers and said : please open the gates
    and allow the people in : and debit the cost on my account…
    This was Mohd Rafi – the eternal singer – for the people – in all
    corners of the world….P e o p l e just love him ….
    binu nair

  310. 310
    P. Haldar Says:

    Sanjay saab:

    Yeh boom-boom kya hota hai mujhe malum nahin, lekin aap ne rock ‘n roll ki farmaish kiya, to main chhe gaane pesh kar raha hoon. The first was composed by Ravi, the second and third by Jai and the remaining three by your loRD. Song number 1 was such a hit that it was copyrighted by a Carribean calypso group. The second was used in an American film called Ghost World and has become very popular in the west (if you go through the comments, it’s mostly by Westerners). The fourth became the signature tune of the 60s and launched your loRD to instant fame. Does the voice sound “thin” to you? Is it “energetic” enough for you? Tell me honestly in which of these songs Kishore would have done a better job. Kyun Mt. Everest climb karne ka koshish kar rahe ho, gir jaoge. Kya MAST MAST, theek bola na?

    1. Baar baar dekho: http://youtube.com/watch?v=75SRg70XrVY

    2. Jan pehchan: http://youtube.com/watch?v=aHA_S48KRrI

    3. Aaj kal: http://youtube.com/watch?v=rBEXkwlQ_Ew&mode=related&search=

    4. Aaja aaja: http://youtube.com/watch?v=v3p4w7S6n9o&mode=related&search=

    5. O haseena: http://youtube.com/watch?v=z3O9ZuBBysc&mode=related&search=

    6. Ek bechara: http://youtube.com/watch?v=gcRFCZPZXZk

  311. 311
    P. Haldar Says:

    Mr. Nair, the last time I saw Rafi on stage, Usha Timothy was with him. And the last song I heard him sing live was “Aaja aaja main hun pyar tera” with Usha. He would deliberately mix the “aaja aaja’s” with “jaaja jaaja’s” and make panting sounds; Rafi4 in full form. The crowd was going wild and he motioned to his orchestra to stop and said, “Arre wah, Kalkatta-walo ko kya ho gaya!” and then resumed his “aaja aaja’s”. None of the current-day singers can even compete with Rafi4.

  312. 312
    Monty Says:

    Shridip, No one has nice and sweet voice than Rafiji, Kishore had harsh voice, it was just his luck he got Aradhana. Fully agreed that no one can touch Rafiji.

  313. 313
    Monty Says:

    Rajesh Khanna’s last films were totally flopped, in all these flop movies, KK had sung for Rajesh Khanna, why KKs songs didn’t help the movies or the ex-superstar??

  314. 314
    sudip Says:

    Shridip:
    :Our modern filmy music is the gift of tradition Kishorda has set. I can say that singers like Amit Kumar, Kumar Sanu, Abhijeet are following the tradition of Kishorda”

    -VERY TRUE..THat’s why 1985-1995 was the DARK AGE of Hindi fim music when trash like “Gutur gutur” or “Halwawala aa gaya” or “Main bhelpuri kha raha tha” or “Mera pant bhi sexy” were produced. Likewise Bengali music went down the drains, never to recover.

    Only recently we see some revival with Gangster, Lagaan, Dil Chahta Hai. If you follow the recent trends, the focus is on high pitch Sufi style composition. Take Gangster or Kalyug, for example. The Rahat Fateh Ali (Tujhe dekhkar sona) or Zubeen (Ya Ali) numbers are essentially Rafi-style numbers. I cannot think of a single A.R. Rahman song that is sung in Kishore style (he clearly prefers soft voices).

  315. 315
    ian Says:

    rafi was the best and will remain the best, kishoreda was good in his own way but not comparable with rafi who had a golden voice, sweet, natural, melodious, undescribeable voice, god given voice.
    a voice that is still today being revered not only in india but also in places like senegal and many african countries whose natives dont speak or understand hindi but when they hear rafis voice they go in a trance for rafis magical voice.

  316. 316
    Sanjay Says:

    1. “To me romantic and sad songs are NOT meant to be “POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” and that is where Kishore fails. It can create superhits but does not capture the mellow and closeness that is so necessary in romance.”

    Agreed, those are not the best traits for a romantic number. Kishore Kumar had a versatile voice that he could modulate very well. When needed, his voice was smooth and mellow. Case in point: “Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam” (one of greatest displays of voice for me – mellow yet powerful at the same time) from Dilli Ka Thug and “Ek Ladki…Milli Ek Ajnabise” from Chalti Naam Ka Gaadi are two great romantic songs that rank with the very best. No list of romantic songs is complete without these two. Clearly, Kishore does NOT fail.

    You are much more knowledgeable with music than I am but I’ll dare to say you made a mistake, a mistake that many fans make. The style and values of music were greatly different in 1950s (romantic) than in 1970s (action). You can’t take 1970s Kishore and send him to 1950s romantic era – he’d be out of phase with his traits. He was powerful and resounding to cater to the 1970s but he’d make his voice mellow and smooth to cater to the different values of the 1950s (he sort of did that in the classic song Aane Wala Pal 1979 – how do you describe his voice here?). 1950s Kishore would and DID deliver romantic numbers. This leads to the question, “Why did he struggle in the 1950s then?”

    Music in the 1950s much more science and less art and so not surprisingly classical training was highly emphasized. MDs overlooked Kishore’s artistic traits – which would be fine except for one thing. This also meant that the MDs overlooked his intrinsic, superior voice and they missed big (they were VERY LUCKY to have another great singer in Rafi to COVER that great miss but this is not my point as I will elaborate later).

    A daring statement I know but I back it with the notion that the great SD Burman later ‘corrected’ his mistake by balancing more equally between Rafi & Kishore. In the 1970s he used Kishore Kumar much more and it wasn’t entirely just because the producers demanded Kishore during the wave. It wasn’t just because the values of music had shifted to Kishore’s forte. It was also becusse there was no longer a prejudice. MDs turned down KK in the 1950s because they were prejudiced against him since he didn’t have classical background and this caused them to miss big. I’ll bet that they’d prefer a singer with an average voice but decent classical training over Kishore Kumar (I oppose this). Yes the former was more functional but clearly the latter has magic in his voice and voice is most important in a singer.

    Yes, guys like Raj Kapoor or Shammi Kapoor or Dev Anand were not musical authorities like the MDs but they did have great responsibility and have to oversee the music for movies. These guys were just as important and influential as the MDs – Shankar Jaikishan made it big because of Raj Kapoor and Shammi Kapoor could veto tunes and singers. I emphasize this because a big player in the 50s – Dev Anand was able to appreciate KK’s genius. He didn’t have the bias of MDs since he was’t a scientist of music – he was a natural lover of music and with that kind of free spirit – one cannot overlook the fresh voice of KK (btw – I hate Dev Anand – he doesn’t give credit to Rafi and he can keep dreaming of being able to sound like KK). Same goes for Rajesh Khanna and music lovers of the 70s – when that bias for science over art was lifted, KK prospered. My point is that Kishore could have sung many (NOT all) of the romantic numbers that Rafi sang and he’d sing them in the “romantic style” soft & mellow with his versatile voice. He just wasn’t given the opportunity due to bias rather than ability and this was revealed in hindsight. Now I’m trying trying to emphasize what KK COULD have done since he ALREADY DID do plenty in the 1950s. He has plenty of romantic numbers like the one I described above. Absolute gems. He showed ability for romantic songs and should have been given more gems.

    2. “If you really talk of melody and barritone voice talk of Hemant Kumar (or Hemanta Mukherjee) or Mehdi Hasan. They are deep but not out of melody.

    If you go by the “masculine, barritone” yardstick, then Talat Mehmood is no singer at all. I am surprised why he is called “King of Ghazals”. In the same yardstick Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is crap! Rahat Fateh Ali Khan is a novice!”

    I respect those guys as singers but the are not anywhere in the league of Rafi and Kishore for MY LIKING. I personally like Rafi’s qawwali’s much more than Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan simply because of his superior voice. Same with Rafi over Manna Dey. And the same with Kishore Kumar over anyone. The key difference though, and this is my big point, is that Kishore Kumar could sing soft if needed like Rafi, and he could sing powerful and resounding too. Mohd Rafi and the other sings could sing soft, could sing moderate and not so soft, but NO ONE could reach the energy and RESOUNDING and BOOMING voice of Kishore Kumar. It did NOT go both ways for other singers but it did for KK – that is why I rate his voice above others. That isw hat sets KK apart from the rest. We’ll probably elaborate more on this with analysis of songs.

    3. “I think this debate is never going to end. Simply because, if you love deep, barritone voice you got to love Kishore and hate Rafi. If you love sweet, melodious voice you got to love Rafi and dislike Kishore.. There is no middle ground.”

    I think fans are wrong to say Kishore couldn’t sing sweet and melodious. He could and those two songs I listed are a great example. “Mere Samne Wali Kirdki” was also a romantic number sung with a crisp, clean, soft yet not too soft that it doesn’t have a strong enunciated tone (sounds contradictory I know). That is what I call a voice. There IS middle ground with Kishore Kumar. Fans make the mistake of generalizing KK’s voice – it was too versatile to be generalized. On the other hand, Rafi could not reach deep baritone or that kind of power (unless he shifts to a very high pitch but that is something different). This is why KK wins. You have pointed out the heart of the debate and here I say it tilts to Kishore. Kishore’s voice had it ALL.

    A. Kabhi Khud pe
    Nope, I don’t see strong tonal strength here. Voice sounds kind of fuzzy. However, I think it has more to do with poor quality of recording and the MD’s directions (they told him to sing soft).

    B. “Suhani Raat Dhal Chuki (it is amazing that this tonal quality was demonstrated in 1949, when instrumental aid was non-existent)”
    I agree. Rafi shows great tonal ability here. Amazing! While I keep emphasized powerful and booming – that has limitations too (unless you’re KK). Rafi was one of the few whose voice was just right. I greatly enjoyed this song.

    C. Jab Mohabbat Jawan Hota hai
    Good, strong tone here. Really enjoyed the song too. I have to question the recording equipment. I still think that had KK sung this one, his inflections wouldn’t be as great as Rafi’s. His deeper voice would result in a slightly better enunciation of the words. Both versions would be gems.

    D. Main nigahen tere chehre se hatayoon kaise
    I notice moments in the song where Rafi goes to high pitch and then quickly shifts down. Asha Bhosle cited this as his greatest trait. I don’t think KK would have been able to sing this song exactly like Rafi with that kind of effortless scaling or level of inflection. However, I do think Rafi’s voice gets too soft sometimes and as a result that appears fuzzy. Maybe the obviously poor recording equipment didn’t do justice but KK wouldn’t have that issue for me of fuzziness for me. When Rafi sings “Nigahen” it is too soft for me sometimes.

    E. “Aapne yaad dilaya to mujhe yaad aaya”

    AMAZING SONG! THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE SONG! HIS VOICE HERE IS AMAZING. This is what I call TONAL STRENGTH and VOICE QUALITY and ENUNCIATION. I think the biggest issue is my personal preference against MDs preference for soft voice. I really liked this one.

    “Now let me give you 5 more songs that will just sound HORRIBLE and HOARSE in “”POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” voice.”

    Aha! Who says Kishore was capable of ONLY powerful, resounding? He could sing it mellow too with his versatile voice. Don’t generalize his voice! However, I think that Mohd Rafi’s voice was the most melodious of all male singers.

    A. “Abhi na jao chod kar”

    I think the Kishore Kumar of 1979 who sang “Aane Wala Pal” or the songs from the 1950s would be able to sing this song very well. I’m not certain it’d be better than Rafi’s version, but he’d still do a great rendering of this song. He would sound FAR from horrible.

    B. “Door rehkar na karo baat”

    This was a pretty loud and booming song if you ask me. I can’t tell if it is the recording equipment that screwed up some parts and made it sound fuzzy or if the voice got too soft at points (low frequency and so the resolution decreases i.e. reduced clarity of words). Great – sung well by Rafi, but I think Kishore’s superior voice would have been even better for this song. I’ll say millions of fans would agree with me as would RD Burman. Only problem is, there are moments in the song where KK cannot match the high pitch. Rafi’s scale was amazing.

    B. “Thehriye hosh mein aa loon to chale jayega”

    This song would sound great in Kishore’s CRISP, CLEAN, TONED, and romantic voice. The singer that sang for Dilli Ka Thug would do this song full justice. A little modifications would have to be made for Kishore to optimize him, but he could sing this song very well. His voice is amazing. I’m imagining this song in Kishore’s voice (NOT 1970s Kishore – not rough or too deep Kishore – that’d sound horrible – 1950s Kishore). It amazes me how biased MDs were to overlook such a great voice.

    D. “Tum se kahoon ek baat”

    Agreed. NO ONE could have sung this song better than Rafi. BRILLIANTLY sung. His voice sounds amazing here. Thanks for this great gem.

    E. “Aaja tujhko pukare mera pyar”

    Another amazing gem. KK could not have sung this song as well as Rafi – and this song was from late 60s I think when KK was catching up to Rafi. Great inflections here – few could match it. What a voice!
    You might as well have added “Din Dhal Jaye.” Agree with SD, no one could have sang that gem better than Rafi Sahab. Amazing. One of the most brilliantly rendered songs ever.

    “You will always find some odd Rafi songs because Rafi was given all kinds of songs while MDs protected KK within his comfort zone.”
    I agree. Rafi was the most capapble singer of all. As mentioned before, Kalyanji-Anandji said that Rafi was the only singer for whom they never even considered IF he could sing the song they were composing.
    “It is interesting that you find Rafi strained while all MDs ranging from Naushad to A.R Rahman feels otherwise (effortless scaling). Of the current day music directors, Rahman, Shantanu Moitra, Ismail and Vishal Sekhar swear by Rafi.”

    I must have poorly expressed myself. I don’t question Rafi’s scaling ability – that’d be utterly stupid. However, when you do go to an extremely high pitch (the 5th Rakhwale on the live version of that gem), you’re not at ease and it is will show. Perhaps by strained I flet that his throat was kind of dry there in some parts of a song (no kidding, a glass of water would have helped). Don’t mean to sound disrespectful to the great Mohd Rafi. Sometime I’ll elaborate those parts. Just listening to Dard E Dil right now – what a voice.

    While Rafi was a more capable singer (scale, inflections, etc) and second to none (if not #1) when it came to conveying emotions and AMAZING personality Kishore Kumar was just as good on the latter and his voice was SUPERIOR. His voice had everything AT THE SAME TIME – that is truly amazing. Mellow yet powerful. Contradictory but possible with Kishore’s voice. Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam was a mellow song sung with yet a powerful tone. KK’s superior voice raised him him to the top for me.

  317. 317
    Sanjay Says:

    “He never would say : give this song to xyz.. since I cannot sing it….. u know why I am saying this…here..”

    >>> Kishore Kumar understood that some songs are better suited for a specific singer. Just as Rafi could not sing AS WELL as Kishore the song “Khaike Pan Banaraswala” (now I know that this song isn’t musically elegant but what’s more important is how Kishore can take such a song like that and make it a classic with his energy), there are some Rafi songs that Kishore could not sing AS well (vice versa). You should not take a jab at Kishore like this when he is being considerate, when he is being human, is being humble and respectful of Mohd Rafi.

    The producers and distributors would always
    dictate terms to the composers. They would say : We want
    Rafi saab as the male play-back. , they knew the saleability
    and the long term shelf life of RAFI songs… this went on for
    almost three decades in the hindi film industry….

    >>> The same can be said for Kishore Kumar in the 70s and 80s.
    Secondly, the song Mana re tu kahe na dheer dhare .. is voted
    by eminent new and yore music personalities as the best Hindi
    song of the last 50 years in an OUTLOOK SURVEY last year….
    More , the songs : Mana tadapat…, to Ganga ki mauj…
    Bhagwaan… Oh duniya ke rakhwale…. and many other are
    pure gems : and if any singer on this earth can sing these :
    in RAFI-isque style, with emotions, feelings, diction, and everything
    else included then I will bet and lose my – last penny….
    More, Mohd Rafi-Lata has been voted the best singers of last
    century by the Times of India Publications – survey….
    So your lords voice tenor does not merit any discussion …and does
    not hold water…

    >>> Binuji – I don’t need an Outlook Survey to tell me, and millions of free spirited music lovers what to like and what not to like. I don’t need to read a newspaper to know who the top singer is. Music is free for all – a fan’s opinion – be it of any fan (devoid of ignorance) is just as great as another’s. Those reviews mean little to me and I could counter your reviews, I am sure, with many that have Kishore Kumar as the voice of the millennium.

    Kishore Kumar’s unmatched energy is a big deal. It is that energy that makes him so popular among the youth (not just RDB’s type of music). Lots of energy and vigor is something that can be immediately and naturally be recognized by anyone – even a child who doesn’t know the language. KK is unmatched in that kind of energy and power and that is why he is so popular today.

    Btw – as great of a singer Mohd Rafi was, he needed composers to make the most of his abilities (and vice versa). Remember, a great reason (not the greatest) for Rafi’s decline was that his MDs declined – Jaikishan’s death was a big blow to him. RDB took the lead and he shunned Rafi (to be different, not out of hostility or prejudice).

    Part of being a great fan is accepting a singer being human. I am happy with Kishore Kumar for all his ups and downs. If I try to repaint the picture and artificially improve him, he is no longer Kishore Kumar and that is ultimate disrespect.

  318. 318
    Sanjay Says:

    Now I realize that my saying some Rafi classics could be better rendered by KK is heretic. That heresy is two sided. A watershed song for KK was indeed “Mere Sapano Ki Rani” (coincidentally, Rafi sang a song of the same title with KL Saigal). It was actually meant for Rafi and it isn’t a stretch for some Rafi fans to argue (heretically) that the Rafi version would have been superior. Some have committed the heresy of choosing Rafi’s version of Zindagi Ek Safar Hai Suhana – I don’t hold it against them – you really can’t go wrong either way.

    I’ve said many times that Rafi’s voice could get too soft and therefore fuzzy. When you sing at a low pitch, the frequency is lower so the wavelength is greater and therefore the resolution (detail clarity of voice) can suffer. I do believe that if Rafi recorded with today’s technology, I probably would not have made those complaints.

    Listen to Dard E Dil: my golden collection version is 7:03 long. Listen to his voice at 2:53 when he sings “kur” rahi hai shayari. The way his voice sounds when he sings “kur.” It sounds worn (although many 1980 Rafi songs where his voice is par excellent – John Johnny Janardhan comes immediately to mind – no one could have sung that song better than Rafi). He probably deliberately did it. I wonder why, I’m just curious. Perhaps an artistic decision. Maybe I’m looking into it too microscopically.

    btw…i revise my review of

    Main nigahen tere chehre se hatayoon

    He doesn’t sound fuzzy at any moment, just very soft. Silly me.

  319. 319
    Sanjay Says:

    Perhaps later I will better clarify what I mean by ‘fuzzy.’ not now

  320. 320
    Kishore fan Says:

    So, as people are making allegations that bengali people like kishore, as he is a “bengali”, I see some “muslims” are fighting for Rafi. Is it just a coincidence? Go to your “Rafi website” and show the affection.

  321. 321
    myk Says:

    Shridip,

    >>>If the classical music training and knowledge are important in film songs, most of the songs were sung by Pt. Jasraj, Bhimsen Joshi etc. Nobody remembers Md. Rafi today.

    Really, which is why he was judged at the best male singer by a group of musicians including your Kishore clones. He is very popular around the world, his popularity increases day by day, unless you have facts to back your arguments, don’t write such pathetic comments.

    >>>The songs which touches the heart of people are considered the best. Kishorda is far better than Rafi in this manner. His voice contained heroism itself, nomatter for whom he was plybacking.

    This is purely subjective.

    >>>If Kishorda has started his fulfledged career earlier even Rajendra kumar or Shammi kapoor etc. could touch the heights of Amitabh bacchan and Rajesh Khanna.

    What’s with this Rajesh K and Amitabh superstardom ?. Because Kishore sang the majority for them it doesn’t prove anything. You actually want to think that Kishore would have added the same dimension to Rajendra K or Shammi that Rafi did ?. This is outright hilarious.

    >>>Our modern filmy music is the gift of tradition Kishorda has set. I can say that singers like Amit Kumar, Kumar Sanu, Abhijeet are following the tradition of Kishorda.

    LOL modern film music was brought in with the likes of S-J, definitely not Kishore. Amit Kumar, Abhijeet and Kumar Sanu are nothing special.

    >>>Udit narayan, Sonu Nigam etc. have voice tone like Md. Rafi but they also are following the tradition of Kishorda only.

    Please tell me you don’t really mean this because if you do, there is no point in taking this discussion further.

    >>>Md. Rafi has not set any tradition. He was singing filmy songs in a classical tradition. He was neither the best classical singer nor best filmy singer.

    Really, which is why he dominated the field for such a long time, which is why he sang in each and every possible genre, both things Kishore could not do. So now who do you think was the best ?. Your argument for classical tradition holds no ground as it doesn’t even relate to what you’re talking about. Btw Rafi set the benchmark of playback singing and took the art to such a high level, if that’s not a tradtion then nothing by anyone else is.

    >>>Why Md. Rafi was so famous and considered as a legend? Because he was a “Ujjad gamma erando pradhan” in starting of the Indian film industry. This Gujarati proverb means – In the area where no trees or vegetation are there, people find even the ‘erando (Not so usefull tree)’ as the best.

    Really, so with the likes of Mukesh, Talat, Hemant, Manna etc. there was no one around ?. Its no wonder you dislike classical singing, because Kishore had no classical training at all and even if he did he still would not have reached Rafi’s standards.

    >>>I truly believe that those music directors or singers who every time raise the flags of classical singing in filmy songs are super ficious.

    Really, why so ?.

    >>>If we put them in classical music industry (having great personalities like Hariprasad Chorasiya, Shiv Kumar Sharma, Zakir Husain etc.) they will be prooven as rejected pieces of trash.

    Who says we would like to put them in that category ?. Same with putting those classical specialists in film music, they will be rejected a thousand times more. What’s your point here ?

    >>>So stop commenting that Rafi has greater music knowledge and greater voice quality. His voice is like a dove. Ghu, ghu…..

    Why is it too hard to accept the truth ?. You can go on and on about Kishore, but whatever silly arguments you come out with won’t change the fact that Rafi was the benchmark, the supreme. Btw Rafi did have greater voice quality and greater music knowlegde.

  322. 322
    myk Says:

    >>>Agreed, those are not the best traits for a romantic number. Kishore Kumar had a versatile voice that he could modulate very well. When needed, his voice was smooth and mellow. Case in point: “Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam” (one of greatest displays of voice for me – mellow yet powerful at the same time) from Dilli Ka Thug and “Ek Ladki…Milli Ek Ajnabise” from Chalti Naam Ka Gaadi are two great romantic songs that rank with the very best. No list of romantic songs is complete without these two. Clearly, Kishore does NOT fail.

    Kishore does not fail but its a total mistake comparing him with Rafi in any genre. What modulation are you talking about ?. Could he sound like any actor he playbacked for with the exception of Dev and Rajesh Khanna. Kishore did not have a versatile voice, if he did his career would have taken off much before 1970.

    >>>You are much more knowledgeable with music than I am but I’ll dare to say you made a mistake, a mistake that many fans make. The style and values of music were greatly different in 1950s (romantic) than in 1970s (action). You can’t take 1970s Kishore and send him to 1950s romantic era – he’d be out of phase with his traits. He was powerful and resounding to cater to the 1970s but he’d make his voice mellow and smooth to cater to the different values of the 1950s (he sort of did that in the classic song Aane Wala Pal 1979 – how do you describe his voice here?). 1950s Kishore would and DID deliver romantic numbers. This leads to the question, “Why did he struggle in the 1950s then?”

    He struggled because he simply could not sing any type of song. The music in the 50′s and 60′s was much richer in terms of compositions, MD’s etc. compared to the 70′s. The majority did not want to take a chance with Kishore and that is understandable. Who is taking Kishore of the 70′s and sending him to the 50′s ?.

    >>>Music in the 1950s much more science and less art and so not surprisingly classical training was highly emphasized. MDs overlooked Kishore’s artistic traits – which would be fine except for one thing.

    Less art ?. I don’t know what you mean by that, it was quite a creative period.

    >>>This also meant that the MDs overlooked his intrinsic, superior voice and they missed big (they were VERY LUCKY to have another great singer in Rafi to COVER that great miss but this is not my point as I will elaborate later).

    Not really, they didn’t miss anything at all because Kishore did not have the range nor the voice to sing the majority types of songs. Yes, Rafi was there and in that sense they were very lucky.

    >>>A daring statement I know but I back it with the notion that the great SD Burman later ‘corrected’ his mistake by balancing more equally between Rafi & Kishore.

    Do you know whay he did that ?. First of all Kishore became popular so he catered to him, secondly both him and RD felt that since KK had lost out in the 50′s and 60′s, here was a chance for him to get many songs. If you haven’t noticed, compositions in the 70′s were not as difficult as in the 50′s or 60′s. Kishore restricted SDB’s compositional range but SD noticed that in the 70′s he didn’t have to compose songs like those in the 50′s and 60′s, the 70′s was a different period. If at all there was a miss, it was SDB-Rafi in the 70′s.

    >>>In the 1970s he used Kishore Kumar much more and it wasn’t entirely just because the producers demanded Kishore during the wave. It wasn’t just because the values of music had shifted to Kishore’s forte. It was also becusse there was no longer a prejudice.

    Not really, it had alot to do with what you mentioned. Kishore wanted to go back home in 1967, RD told him to stay back. Without the Burmans, I think things would be different.

    >>>MDs turned down KK in the 1950s because they were prejudiced against him since he didn’t have classical background and this caused them to miss big. I’ll bet that they’d prefer a singer with an average voice but decent classical training over Kishore Kumar (I oppose this). Yes the former was more functional but clearly the latter has magic in his voice and voice is most important in a singer.

    What magic are you talking about ?. For this very reason, lack of is why MD’s did not go to him. He was very much there from the late forties, there was no prejudiced against him, its just that he wasn’t considered even a second rate singer at that time. I don’t think making up excuses is going to get us anywhere.

    >>>Yes, guys like Raj Kapoor or Shammi Kapoor or Dev Anand were not musical authorities like the MDs but they did have great responsibility and have to oversee the music for movies. These guys were just as important and influential as the MDs – Shankar Jaikishan made it big because of Raj Kapoor and Shammi Kapoor could veto tunes and singers.

    S-J made it big because of their musical talent, intitally RK helped them, but after that their music sold, without the help of anyone.

    I emphasize this because a big player in the 50s – Dev Anand was able to appreciate KK’s genius. He didn’t have the bias of MDs since he was’t a scientist of music – he was a natural lover of music and with that kind of free spirit – one cannot overlook the fresh voice of KK (btw – I hate Dev Anand – he doesn’t give credit to Rafi and he can keep dreaming of being able to sound like KK).

    It was SDB who fixed KK on Dev right from before, and Dev and KK were also good friends so its understandable. Yet KK would not have been able to sing the classics Rafi sang for Dev. Even SDB knew this which is why the cream of Dev came with Rafi.

    >>>Same goes for Rajesh Khanna and music lovers of the 70s – when that bias for science over art was lifted, KK prospered.

    Times changed, KK got a break, no bias here.

    My point is that Kishore could have sung many (NOT all) of the romantic numbers that Rafi sang and he’d sing them in the “romantic style” soft & mellow with his versatile voice.

    Totally disagree, Kishore did not have a quarter of the voice Rafi had. He was good in his own way, but not a versatile voice able to cover many genres as well as modulate for every actor.

    >>>He just wasn’t given the opportunity due to bias rather than ability and this was revealed in hindsight.

    Kalyanji made the comment, that KK was not suited for the 50′s and 60′s. Take Rafi, he was suited for any decade, 40′s, 50′s, 60′s, 70′s and 80′s.

    >>>Now I’m trying trying to emphasize what KK COULD have done since he ALREADY DID do plenty in the 1950s. He has plenty of romantic numbers like the one I described above. Absolute gems. He showed ability for romantic songs and should have been given more gems.

    Yes he should have been given more gems, but MD’s knew his weaknesses and did not take him for the majority of their numbers. Unless you’re saying MD’s did not know what they were doing back then.

    >>>I respect those guys as singers but the are not anywhere in the league of Rafi and Kishore for MY LIKING. I personally like Rafi’s qawwali’s much more than Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan simply because of his superior voice. Same with Rafi over Manna Dey. And the same with Kishore Kumar over anyone. The key difference though, and this is my big point, is that Kishore Kumar could sing soft if needed like Rafi, and he could sing powerful and resounding too. Mohd Rafi and the other sings could sing soft, could sing moderate and not so soft, but NO ONE could reach the energy and RESOUNDING and BOOMING voice of Kishore Kumar.

    This Booming and Resounding effect is personal, I can list many songs where Rafi could sound like that. Sounding Booming and Resounding is my opinion does not make a singer great. Kishore did not have as meledious nor as sweet a voice as Rafi so maybe he had to sing like that in order to make up for it. To me that’s just loud, and not what singing is about.

    >>>It did NOT go both ways for other singers but it did for KK – that is why I rate his voice above others. That isw hat sets KK apart from the rest. We’ll probably elaborate more on this with analysis of songs.

    It went ALL ways for Rafi, he could sing softly, with punch, melediously, any type of voice and Rafi is there.

    >>>I think fans are wrong to say Kishore couldn’t sing sweet and melodious. He could and those two songs I listed are a great example. “Mere Samne Wali Kirdki” was also a romantic number sung with a crisp, clean, soft yet not too soft that it doesn’t have a strong enunciated tone (sounds contradictory I know). That is what I call a voice. There IS middle ground with Kishore Kumar. Fans make the mistake of generalizing KK’s voice – it was too versatile to be generalized.

    No one is saying he could not sing romantic songs. For me Kishore is not middle ground. For me his voice was good but not as sweet and clear as Rafi, definitely not versatile, his bass could not cover up the other facets that his voice did not have.

    >>>On the other hand, Rafi could not reach deep baritone or that kind of power (unless he shifts to a very high pitch but that is something different).

    I think you haven’t listened to a lot of Rafi songs to be making such comments. Rafi has many songs in deep baritone.

    >>>This is why KK wins. You have pointed out the heart of the debate and here I say it tilts to Kishore. Kishore’s voice had it ALL.

    Not really but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If his voice had it all, he would not have to wait 20 + years for a break. Ofcourse we have been hearing excuses as to why this did not happen.

    Kishore was a good singer within his own range, but the problem is comparing him with Rafi, they are two poles apart.

  323. 323
    P. Haldar Says:

    Dear Sanjay,

    I went quickly through your recent posts and feel bad that I reacted rather quickly to one of your earlier posts regarding rock ‘n roll music. You are a very knowledgabe KK fan and I have the utmost respect for such people. And I agree that Kishore could have been used much more often than he was in the 50s and the 60s.

    There’s one point I’d like to make, though. I think you guys are making too much of songs like “Khaike pan banaras-wala”. Someone on this forum had remarked earlier that this is the best folk song ever. The popularity of this song may have more to do with the fact that Amitabh sang it for a hit film. Kishore has so many other songs that are infinitely better than “Khaike pan”. Folk music is not Kishore’s forte; he may have sung a few good folksy songs, but the real players there are Lata, Manna, Rafi and Mukesh (of course, I’m ignoring regional singers like Nirmalendu Choudhury who was simply superb).

    The younger generation does not watch Dilip Kumar, that’s why I guess they are not aware of “Nain Lad Jai Hain”, the gem Rafi sang for him in Gunga Jumna. It’s one of my favourite Naushad compositions. Listen to Rafi’s Bhojpuri enunciation and the force with which he sang. You’ll have to concede that Rafi had a 7-year disadvantage when it came to Amitabh and those seven years could have further tilted the popularity scale in his favour had he been alive. Surely, if Munna Aziz and Shabbir Kumar could have got so many songs in the 80s (including RD’s), Rafi would have grabbed many more. Don’t you agree?

    Finally, I would like to know your views on “Khaike pan” vis-a-vis the eternal favourite from Shree 420: “Ramaiya Vastavaiya”.

  324. 324
    sudip Says:

    Sanjay:
    Since you are UNDOUBTEDLY the most informed and music-aware KK fan here, I will only restrict my answers to your points. The others are just noise.

    “Agreed, those are not the best traits for a romantic number. Kishore Kumar had a versatile voice that he could modulate very well. When needed, his voice was smooth and mellow. Case in point: “Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam” (one of greatest displays of voice for me – mellow yet powerful at the same time) from Dilli Ka Thug and “Ek Ladki…Milli Ek Ajnabise” from Chalti Naam Ka Gaadi are two great romantic songs that rank with the very best. No list of romantic songs is complete without these two. Clearly, Kishore does NOT fail.”

    —I just loved Kishore of the 1950s and early 60s. The two songs you mentioned are from that period. I really think if I had to love Kishore’s voice, I would pick 1950-1960s from Paying Guest to Door Ka Rahi. Incidently and paradoxically, when KK started shooting to fame his voice started having the “enforced heroism” accentuated by affected pronunciation that took away the softness from songs. Take “Mere dildaar ka bakhpan” for example, the song which we have discussed about. Kishore sings it like (notice the spelling):

    “Merre dildhhaar kha bakhhpan”–It is affected. I never liked his pronouncing “r” as “rrr” or “z” as “zzzz”, something that was clearly absent in the Kishore of the 50s.

    The other point about the song, if you have watched the video, is that KK’s voice is totally disconnected from Jeetendra’s voice. Replace Jeetendra with Bacchan or Balraj Sahni, you will get the same tone. Rafi does try to be Rishi in that song (but as I said, I expected better). Rafi can never emulate Bacchan. But he makes an effort to modulate according to the actor and situation.

    In the 1970s KK did sing some soft numbers such as “Chookar Mere manko”. But as I mentioned in earlier posts, none of these were sung in natural voice. Just as Rafi’s natural voice was not masculine, KK’s natural voice ws not sweet. In the 1970s whenever he sang sweetly, it had to be in falsetto (which is never appreciated by hardcore musicians). Abhijeet has picked up the trend and 100% of Abhijeet’s songs are sung in falsetto, though they may sound sweet to the ears.

    As you have admitted going through my list, there are a good number of songs where Rafi would edge Kishore (and I admit there are a good number of songs where KK would sound better). And thanks for acknowldeging the tonal quality of Rafi in those songs. These are great singers-they can do whatever they like..It is just a matter of what is the natural style..Rafi’s strongest point as I said was NOT HIS VOICE. It was his ability to render a mood/situation by shortening or lengthening the words, stressing on letters and maatras..As rightly pointed out “his harkatein and taan” were inimitable. That’s why Manna could not be Rafi. That’s why Sonu Nigam can try for the rest of his life but would never leave the mark as Rafi. When Rafi sang “Nafrat Ki duniya” the whole theatre cried with him. When he sang “Badi door se” the entire theatre had the feeling of a stranger in a unknown country.

    There is merit in this debate because Kishore did have the effect to scale the heights that Rafi reached. But it is pointless in some ways because it really depends on which NATURAL style you want. To my ears Rafi’s style (again NOT ONLY VOICE) was superior.

    Anyway, since you have a good ear and to me someone who is detined to be a Rafi fan with age (just like me and many others), let me recommend some numbers for you.

    1. Haseen dilruba (Roop tera mastana)-the most seductive male number of the 1970s. Unfortunately, this gem got submerged in the Kishore wave of 1972-73.

    2. Aap ki haseen rukh pe aaj naya noor hai- you must have heard this one. Great tonal quality.

    3. Kahin ek masoom nazook si ladki (Shankar Hussain)- If I were a music director, I would re-release the song today, so that people know what they missed out on . This ABSOLUTE GEM did not get its due, despite being one of the MOST ROMANTIC NUMBERS OF THE CENTURY. It is sad. It is unfortunate.. But should not take away the credit from the singer.

    Finally, to all those who mentioned “Khaike Paan banaraswala”…If you want to distinguish between popular song and good folk song listen to “Nain lad jai we” (Ganaga Jumna). The first one is popular and the second one is authentic.

    ——————-

  325. 325
    sudip Says:

    Sanjay:
    Since you are UNDOUBTEDLY the most informed and music-aware KK fan here, I will only restrict my answers to your points. The others are just noise.

    “Agreed, those are not the best traits for a romantic number. Kishore Kumar had a versatile voice that he could modulate very well. When needed, his voice was smooth and mellow. Case in point: “Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam” (one of greatest displays of voice for me – mellow yet powerful at the same time) from Dilli Ka Thug and “Ek Ladki…Milli Ek Ajnabise” from Chalti Naam Ka Gaadi are two great romantic songs that rank with the very best. No list of romantic songs is complete without these two. Clearly, Kishore does NOT fail.”

    —I just loved Kishore of the 1950s and early 60s. The two songs you mentioned are from that period. I really think if I had to love Kishore’s voice, I would pick 1950-1960s from Paying Guest to Door Ka Rahi. Incidently and paradoxically, when KK started shooting to fame his voice started having the “enforced heroism”, accentuated by affected pronunciation that took away the softness from songs. Take “Mere dildaar ka bakhpan” for example, the song which we have discussed about. Kishore sings it like (notice the spelling):

    “Merre dildhhaar kha bakhhpan”–It is affected. I never liked his pronouncing “r” as “rrr” or “z” as “zzzz”, something that was clearly absent in the Kishore of the 50s.

    The other point about the song, if you have watched the video, is that KK’s voice is totally disconnected from Jeetendra’s voice. Replace Jeetendra with Bacchan or Balraj Sahni, you will get the same tone. Rafi does try to be Rishi in that song (but as I said, I expected better). Rafi can never emulate Bacchan. But he makes an effort to modulate according to the actor and situation.

    In the 1970s KK did sing some soft numbers such as “Chookar Mere manko”. But as I mentioned in earlier posts, none of these were sung in natural voice. Just as Rafi’s natural voice was not masculine, KK’s natural voice ws not sweet. In the 1970s whenever he sang sweetly, it had to be in falsetto (which is never appreciated by hardcore musicians). Abhijeet has picked up the trend and 100% of Abhijeet’s songs are sung in falsetto, though they may sound sweet to the ears.

    As you have admitted going through my list, there are a good number of songs where Rafi would edge Kishore (and I admit there are a good number of songs where KK would sound better). And thanks for acknowldeging the tonal quality of Rafi in those songs. These are great singers-they can do whatever they like..It is just a matter of what is the natural style..Rafi’s strongest point as I said was NOT HIS VOICE. It was his ability to render a mood/situation by shortening or lengthening the words, stressing on letters and maatras..As Lataji rightly pointed out, “his harkatein and taan” were inimitable. That’s why Manna could not be Rafi. That’s why Sonu Nigam can try for the rest of his life but would never leave the mark as Rafi. When Rafi sang “Nafrat Ki duniya”, the whole theatre cried with him. When he sang “Badi door se”, the entire theatre had the feeling of a stranger in a unknown country.

    There is merit in this debate because Kishore did have the effect to scale the heights that Rafi reached. But it is pointless in some ways, because it really depends on which NATURAL style you want. To my ears, Rafi’s style (again NOT ONLY VOICE) was superior.

    Anyway, since you have a good ear and to me someone who is destined to be a Rafi fan with age (just like me and many others), let me recommend some numbers for you.

    1. Haseen dilruba (Roop tera mastana)-the most seductive male number of the 1970s. Unfortunately, this gem got submerged in the Kishore wave of 1972-73.

    2. Aap ki haseen rukh pe aaj naya noor hai- you must have heard this one. Great tonal quality.

    3. Kahin ek masoom nazook si ladki (Shankar Hussain)- If I were a music director, I would re-release the song today, so that people know what they missed out on . This ABSOLUTE GEM did not get its due, despite being one of the MOST ROMANTIC NUMBERS OF THE CENTURY. It is sad. It is unfortunate.. But should not take away the credit from the singer.

    Finally, to all those who mentioned “Khaike Paan banaraswala”…If you want to distinguish between popular song and good folk song, listen to another Bhojpuri-“Nain lad jai we” (Ganaga Jumna). The first one is popular, and the second one is authentic Bhojpuri.

    ——————-

  326. 326
    anonymous great Says:

    Kishore kumar for all those who dont know has won seven filmfare the highest among male playback singers. Rafi has won six in all. So there you go.
    So we all know who is the best. Common dont say that he won four after rafi passed away. That would be a lame excuse. Statistics dont lie.
    If you claim him to be the best, then your records should speak for it.
    In terms of civilian awards, LM has won Bharat Ratna but rafi had to settle for much less. So he again fared second best. So sad even the govt did not consider him so special as our rafian think him to be.
    Kishore kumar is to playback singing what AB is to bollywood and Tendulkar is to cricket “simply uncomparable”.
    The reason kk is compared to tendulkar is coz to have a voice like kk is god gifted. All the sur-taal of rafi can be learnt. Remember Manna dey was anyday a better classical singer than rafi.
    Rafi is to playback singing what Dilip kumar is to bollywood and Rahul Dravid is to cricket. Both Dilip kumar and Dravid are highly technically skills, are trained but ask any true cricket lover who does he prefer to watch dravid or tendulkar. The answer would be Tendulkar and similarly for the sheer pleasure of listening it would be kishore kumar anyday over rafi.
    The so called rafi fans are those who were earlier kk fans but under the pressure of Parents-remember above 45 rafi patronage have converted there innocent kids to rafi loyalist. This is simple conditioning and brain washing of innocent kids (rafians).
    To sum up, anyone can become a rafi but none can become KK.

  327. 327
    P. Haldar Says:

    I am glad that someone else has pointed out “Nain Lad Jai Hain”. It’s so pure that you’d think that a Bhojpuri folk singer is singing it. Naushad never compromised and ultimately paid a heavy price. There’s another Rafi song in that genre that most of you may not have even heard. It’s “Pipara ke patwa” composed by Pt. Ravi Shankar for Godaan, based on Munshi Premchand’s famous short story. I didn’t find it on youtube or musicindiaonline, otherwise I’d have sent you the link. Another beautiful song in this genre is Manna’s “Chalat musafir” from Teesri Kasam, composed by Shankar.

    In folk, my favourite MDs are SD, SJ, Salil, Naushad, OP and RD. While Naushad was influenced by the folk music of UP and Bihar, OP brought bhangra and punjabi rhythm to the fore. Salil, SD and RD were all influenced by the folk music of the northeast (Assam, Manipur, Sikkim, Nepal) but SD had the added advantage of himself being an exponent of bhatiyali (Bengal’s boatman song). From where Shankar (a Punjabi who grew up in AP) and Jaikishan (a Gujarati) received their influences, I’m not sure; all I can say is that right from Barsaat all the way down to Mera Naam Joker, they produced magic. But never discount Raj Kapoor’s influence; that man undestood music.

  328. 328
    myk Says:

    Sudip,

    Agree with your comments however I feel one of Rafi’s most strongest points was definitely his voice. It was so unique, no rough edges, no shrillness, not alot of bass and not too thin, just perfect with the ability to modulate for each and every actor. Add to this the melody and sweetness factor and there hasn’t been a better voice in the industry than his. You cannot compare his voice to that of anyone else’s, its out of reach.

    Rafi would have definitely got alot more songs for Amitabh had he lived in the 80′s. Really though, singing for Amitabh doesn’t make you the greatest singer.

  329. 329
    sudip Says:

    Sanjay wrote:
    “>>> Binuji – I don’t need an Outlook Survey to tell me, and millions of free spirited music lovers what to like and what not to like. I don’t need to read a newspaper to know who the top singer is. Music is free for all – a fan’s opinion – be it of any fan (devoid of ignorance) is just as great as another’s. Those reviews mean little to me and I could counter your reviews, I am sure, with many that have Kishore Kumar as the voice of the millennium.”

    –Sanjay: I beg to differ with you on this one. The reason why MD’s and co-singer’s opinions are important is not that they have more knowledge of music than lesser mortals like us, but because some of them had first-hand accounts of how these songs were rendered. What fans listen to is the end product of a song which could have been sung with “n” rehearsals/takes, or over “m” days or “t” tracks, with “surround” echo-aided recording. None of us are privy to what happens in the recording studio behind the microphone. SD, SJ, LP, RD or OP made judgements from there. And none of us know how the singers sounded really in an unaided environment.

    Most of the musicians or music arrangers (and I had the privilege of meeting a couple) who had watched Rafi from close, felt that he was the only singer who sang with “true” voice. The reason you find those minute fuzziness is that he never hid it with falsetto, it was always a true voice regardless of the range.

    –Talking of technicalities, Kishore’s rise owed as much to technology as to the Burmans. Towards the end of the 60′s two things happened on the technology front. 1. More instrumentation owing to Western influence 2. Introduction of a more sensitive recording systems, that would capture every breath and accentuate every ups or downs. I learnt from Manna De’s account that Talat Mehmood perished because of #2. Talat’s quivering voice was over-accentuated by the sensitive recording equipment, so much so, that he had to leave the playback singing scene entirely. Everyone struggled other than Kishore. Because of Kishore’s deep, barritone voice he was able to overcome both the changes. The voice outpowered both instrumentation and sensitive recording instruments. Manna also mentioned that despite initial struggles, Rafi was able to adapt to it thanks to his relentless “riyaz”.

    –Talking of voice, you did mention the energy in Kishore’s voice which is undeniable. But you forgot (or you do not care for) the natural HUSKINESS in Rafi’s voice that makes it seductive and haunting. Kishore could have well sung “Sau baar janam lenge”, but he would never have the huskiness that makes the song mystic and haunting..That was natural in Rafi. Kishore’s voice was drier, with less drama in it.

    –The other aspect of Kishore’s voice was that because of the power and energy it lacked the melancholy that sad songs needed. The richness in the voice was so much (I hold the same opinion about Asha Bhosle) that it would never make one depressed. Let me make a very esoteric statement- I think if a sad song sounds “enjoyable” (observed/verified from a simple fact that such songs are played in public occasions), there has to be something wrong with the rendition. A sad song is NOT supposed to raise a “WOW!!!”, it is supposed to make depressed over days. A sad song should have ZERO embellishments and should soak the listener in misery. That’s what Mukesh was so good at. If you listen to the “Do Badan” songs (which is possibly the only film with 4 sad songs), you feel sad. None of the songs have any energy, nor any glamor…While I would rarely repeat those songs on my stereo (other than Raha Gardishon Mein Hardam), there lies the real success in their rendition. Sounds paradoxical?? It is like a villain. A villain should make you hate him. Similarly a sad song should make you hate it! Rafi goes very close (to me, higher than) Mukesh in achieving that. Kishore puts a lot of feeling in those songs, and leaks the voice once in a while to make it sound good, but I doubt he really depresses anyone. If I had to commit suicide I would possibly listen to Rafi’s “meri Awaaz suno” before hanging myself-so depressing, so much pathos!!

  330. 330
    binu nair Says:

    Anonymous : U are expressing a very sectarian view ..
    but I agree that u have a right to say it ; just as we have
    the right to say : Mohd Rafi – is the most influential playback
    of our time…. No singer alike his capacity or ability has surfaced
    so far … and will never surface …. is my guess…..
    We can have many Kishore Kumars – for his songs were very
    easy and a large number of people can sing it….
    on the contrary, even trained singers find it difficult to sing
    RAFI songs.. and they come somewhere near to 60% only I guess..

    However , we love Kishore Kumar songs – the number of these
    does’nt matter …

    binu nair…

  331. 331
    myk Says:

    >>>Kishore kumar for all those who dont know has won seven filmfare the highest among male playback singers. Rafi has won six in all. So there you go.

    Filmfare awards don’t make a singer better than the other. Madan Mohan hardly got any awards, are you going to tell me Nadeem Shravan who have won more awards are better than him ?.

    So we all know who is the best. Common dont say that he won four after rafi passed away. That would be a lame excuse.

    Maybe lame to you but indeed the truth. Kishore had no competition after 1980.

    >>>If you claim him to be the best, then your records should speak for it.
    In terms of civilian awards, LM has won Bharat Ratna but rafi had to settle for much less. So he again fared second best. So sad even the govt did not consider him so special as our rafian think him to be.

    LOL and where is Kishore in all this. The government hasn’t even considered Kishore for a Padma Shree, so where are you getting with this argument of yours ?. Its totally bogus. Awards don’t speak about talent.

    >>>Kishore kumar is to playback singing what AB is to bollywood and Tendulkar is to cricket “simply uncomparable”.

    Really ?. I don’t think this is the view of the majority of musicians and industry insiders. AB is overhyped big time, no big deal.

    >>>The reason kk is compared to tendulkar is coz to have a voice like kk is god gifted. All the sur-taal of rafi can be learnt. Remember Manna dey was anyday a better classical singer than rafi.

    Not really, Rafi could sing classical songs as good and even better than Manna owing to his pure range. All the sur and taal of rafi cannot be learnt, it is as you put it, “God Gifted”, sorry to say Kishore is miles behind in this aspect.

    Rafi is to playback singing what Dilip kumar is to bollywood and Rahul Dravid is to cricket. Both Dilip kumar and Dravid are highly technically skills, are trained but ask any true cricket lover who does he prefer to watch dravid or tendulkar.

    Wrong comparison buddy, Dilip is regarded as the Icon of Acting even by the overhyped Amitabh, none is comparable to him just as none is comparable to Rafi in playback singing. Show me a list of genres that Kishore has truly covered, I am sure you’ll have a tough time coming up with it.

    >>>The answer would be Tendulkar and similarly for the sheer pleasure of listening it would be kishore kumar anyday over rafi.

    This is truly subjective, you’re not proving anything.

    >>>The so called rafi fans are those who were earlier kk fans but under the pressure of Parents-remember above 45 rafi patronage have converted there innocent kids to rafi loyalist. This is simple conditioning and brain washing of innocent kids (rafians).

    LOL and you are getting this info from ?. Do you speak for these people, are you their PR man ?.

    >>>To sum up, anyone can become a rafi but none can become KK.

    Really, you must be kidding me truly, I really have doubts about your musical background.

  332. 332
    sudip Says:

    “The so called rafi fans are those who were earlier kk fans but under the pressure of Parents-remember above 45 rafi patronage have converted there innocent kids to rafi loyalist. ”

    –So what happened to your parents? Or are they anonymous as well?

  333. 333
    Sanjay Says:

    1. “I beg to differ with you on this one. The reason why MD’s and co-singer’s opinions are important is not that they have more knowledge of music than lesser mortals like us, but because some of them had first-hand accounts of how these songs were rendered. What fans listen to is the end product of a song which could have been sung with “n” rehearsals/takes, or over “m” days or “t” tracks, with “surround” echo-aided recording. None of us are privy to what happens in the recording studio behind the microphone. SD, SJ, LP, RD or OP made judgements from there.”

    I can live with that. Definitely people like SJ or Lata Mangeshkar have greater authority than a fan with these accounts. However, I’m sometimes skeptical of magazines and such because there are a lot of politics and sometimes people are biased (certainly the case with someone like Anil Biswas). I do agree with the general notion.

    2. “And none of us know how the singers sounded really in an unaided environment.”

    That is also true but I just want to add that Mohd Rafi, Kishore Kumar, and Lata Mangeshkar sound EXCELLENT when performing live – without equipment. The 1983 concert at Wembley – Lata & Kishore sang some songs even better than the studio version. Rafi’s live version song (the one you posted) – even better than the film version – love the last seconds of it (although he did do it again when a more mature singer).

    3. “Most of the musicians or music arrangers (and I had the privilege of meeting a couple) who had watched Rafi from close, felt that he was the only singer who sang with “true” voice. The reason you find those minute fuzziness is that he never hid it with falsetto, it was always a true voice regardless of the range.”

    I am better informed now. Good to know.

    4. “Talat Mehmood perished because of #2.”

    I’ve only heard one song of his – Chana Jor Gharam Babu. I liked his part of the song – but I did feel it was way too soft. Such a voice can’t thrive in the action era. Mohd Rafi’s voice could be strong if needed – it is a testament to his greatness, his ability, his versatility, his magic, that whatever the times – he was always #1 from late 1940s right till his death. NO ONE else could have done (nor did it).

    5. “Because of Kishore’s deep, barritone voice he was able to overcome both the changes. The voice outpowered both instrumentation and sensitive recording instruments.”

    Exactly.

    6. “Sau baar janam lenge”

    Incidentally, I’ve had this one my golden collection set for a long time (I have all 9 CDs of Rafi). First time I heard it. It is rendered very well. Someone who knows Hindi and is familiar with classic music will appreciate this. However, this slow song doesn’t have a lot of energy (as designed) but plenty of emotions and depth. Without that energy, it loses the trait of being immediately appreciable for ANYONE except from that group I mentioned. This, as unfair as it is, means that the song won’t be timeless as something with immediately recognizable energy, especially from a fan of the coming generations who isn’t as familiar with the classical gems.

    7. “Let me make a very esoteric statement- I think if a sad song sounds “enjoyable” (observed/verified from a simple fact that such songs are played in public occasions), there has to be something wrong with the rendition.”

    This is a very interesting point. That is exactly my problem with Mohammed Rafi. One of my all time favorite songs (in a general category too!) is Rafi’s “Patthar Ke Sanam.” This is one of the most PERFECTLY RENDERED songs I have ever heard. Trouble is, it is supposed to be a sad song. When I hear it, I become so elated, so impressed, so taken back by the perfection of the voice and the small details of expression (harkatein and taan) that it seems weird as to why Waheeda Rehman is crying. Yes, the voice has sadness as he sings “Patthar” but the overall superiority of the rendition overcomes that sadness.

    That is a big problem with Rafi – sometimes his voice and rendition is too good for sad songs. His song “Kush Rahe Tu Sada” – again, I’m half half. He gives the right emotions of sadness, but I’m just amazed at his melody – listen to that last line of the song – how melodious his voice is! It is so impressive that you lose sadness. Same problem with “Tere Galiyon Mein” from Hawas. Right emotions – but superiority of voice and rendition make you say “wow” rather than cry.

    On the other hand, Kishore’s voice is not as rich as Rafi’s. It always has that strength (baritone) but the energy can be removed as Kishore
    modulates his voice to be mellow.

    Mukesh is a great singer and one of my favorites – he had his niche in the industry and was irreplaceable and an all time great. However, his voice wasn’t as rich as Kishore’s and certainly not as rich as Rafi’s and that is why he was the best for sad songs. If he sang “Patthar Ke Sanam” – the song wouldn’t be nearly as good as Rafi’s – but it would do the job of making the song sad better – because his voice isn’t as rich. The saddest song I’ve ever heard was “Dost Dost Na Rahe” from Sangam, but my favorite sad song that also actually does make me sad is “O Saathi Re” and it proves that Kishore is great for sad songs when he modulates his voice.

    In “O Saathi Re” Kishore maintains his voice strength (baritone naturally makes it strong) but reduces the energy by slowing down and modulating his voice to be mellow. It isn’t that same powerful voice from the songs of say, “Janemun Tum Kamal Kharti Ho” from Trishul. However, that heavy voice sounds like it is coming from a sad – HEAVY heart. It sounds like it is coming from a powerful person who is made helpless yet the strong baritone retains clarity. That depresses the hell out of me. His heavy, rough voice actually helps to make the song sad. The song DOES need a little bit of “wow” else you’ll be too bored to listen to it. It needs to be just “fun enough” that you’re all ears.

    “meri Awaaz suno”

    This is also in my collecton. The song is rendered very well.

  334. 334
    Sanjay Says:

    “Rafi can never emulate Bacchan.”

    Actually, it is that Bachchan can never emulate Rafi. Anyway, for all Rafi fans out there, I’d like to hear more about the “Naseeb incident.” Amitabh and Rafi were to record the duet “Chal Mere Bhai.” I hear that both arrived around noon for recording. Both appeared restless. Amitabh said, “I couldn’t sleep last night knowing that I’d be recording with a such a legend like you.” Rafi said something like, “I couldn’t get much sleep either knowing I’d record with such a tall super star like you.” At that, Amitabh fell to Rafi’s feet.

    Does anyone have more details or something to add to that anecdote. I’m very interested. I’m also interested in what Amitabh had to say of Rafi – since Amitabh was the superstar of the time and coincidentally Rafi’s “just right” voice was not perfect for Amitabh’ deep barritione (he is a lousy singer btw).

  335. 335
    Sanjay Says:

    MYK:

    1. “This Booming and Resounding effect is personal, I can list many songs where Rafi could sound like that. I think you haven’t listened to a lot of Rafi songs to be making such comments. Rafi has many songs in deep baritone.”

    Please do! List me AS MANY songs as you can think where Rafi has something close to the POWERFUL TONE of Kishore Kumar. I’m VERY interested.

    I predict you’ll give a list of strong tonal quality but it’ll never be quite as powerful as Kishore’s rendition. How can it? Barritone is a good thing and a bad thing. Someone with a baritone could never sing “Din Dhal Jaye.” Just as it allows you – it also limits you. It’s OK that Rafi didn’t have baritone. His HUSKY voice and his TONE were excellent even without.
    I anxiously wait for a list – make it as long as good as you can.

    2. “What modulation are you talking about?” ; “Kishore did not have a versatile voice.”

    He could change his voice to mellow and smooth to suite the an emotional or heartfelt number – Chingari Koi Badkhe (Amar Prem) or Aane Wala Pal (Golmal) sound very different from his trademark booming, powerful voice from say “Apni to Jaise Taise” from Laawaris. He could change his voice to match a drunk Amitabh in Sharabi. That’s undeniable modulation and versatility, for me.

    3. “Kishore did not have the range nor the voice to sing the majority types of songs.”

    If Kishore didn’t have the voice – then how could he reach such heights (and ONLY HE) to contend with Rafi? You can question anything about Kishore – his career or his training – but NOT his AMAZING VOICE.

    4. “If you haven’t noticed, compositions in the 70’s were not as difficult as in the 50’s or 60’s. Kishore restricted SDB’s compositional range but SD noticed that in the 70’s he didn’t have to compose songs like those in the 50’s and 60’s, the 70’s was a different period.”

    True, compositions in the 50s were much more difficult. However, in an artistic sense, an easier composition is no less to me. I loved music from the 70s (and late 60s with Rafi gems – I CANNOT believe that Rafi declined in 1969 – I can think of a dozen Rafi FAVORITES from that year alone and the songs of Aradhana were different but not better). That is not entirely relevant to the value of the song.

    5. “If at all there was a miss, it was SDB-Rafi in the 70’s.”

    My favorite Rafi-Lata duet is actually “Teri Bindiya Re” from 1973 – the “lowest” point of Rafi’s career. There’s pure magic in his voice in that song. The story of Abhimaan was completely ruined when they choose Rafi to do playback (I thought the female voice was supposed to be better in the movie than the males – certainly not in that song).

    6. “Kishore wanted to go back home in 1967, RD told him to stay back.”

    That should be told to people as a motivational period. Tell people, “even the great Kishore Kumar struggled and was about to give up. He never did though – kept persisting – and see what a rich career he had from 1969-1987” think how much he’d have missed had he given up.”

    7. “Yet KK would not have been able to sing the classics Rafi sang for Dev.

    Yes that is true – but Kishore sang his own classics for Dev.

    8. “Even SDB knew this which is why the cream of Dev came with Rafi.”

    Just for my own curiosity – who sang more for Dev Anand (not that this means greatness – I don’t care for Dev Anand just curious). Rafi or Kishore?

  336. 336
    Sanjay Says:

    MYK:

    You talk about the greatness of Rafi’s voice. Of course it is GREAT. Think about it this way. A lot of Kishore fans don’t care for the kind of songs from the 50s and 60s. They only care for the kinds of songs in the 1970s and 1980s. The ones that demand a powerful barritone for strength. They care for sad and romantic songs too (we’ve seen this in the 70s) but don’t care for songs that require too much classical training.

    What kind of singer would such an audience like? Kishore Kumar. Whose voice would be BEST for this kind of genre? Kishore Kumar’s (before you argue this – I want that list). If you go for OVERALL SINGING with ALL KINDS of songs than I think Rafi wins easy – but it depends on the value of the fans. Lots of fans who grew up in the 70s are enchanted with that kind of music (and remember – the 70s 80s genre is big enough that it is a world of its own). This “limitation” is very broad one.

    If people don’t care for ghazals and qawwalis but are within certain limits (that are broad nevertheless) (and MILLIONS are) and it is just about voice and not training – then Kishore Kumar can truly contend to be #1 among those fans. Kishore’s setback in the early period was NEVER his amazing voice – it was training.

    You have to fit a singer for you purposes. Not everyone likes EVERY KIND of song. And fors specific categories – KK is #1. His voice is best. Even his limitations leave for a BIG WORLD – his great and vast career with many kinds of songs.

  337. 337
    Sanjay Says:

    That is why the historians / experts from the time always pick Rafi over Kishore. However, the people today who aren’t from the 50s or 60s but remember 70s well appreciate 70s music much more and don’t care as much for 50s and 60s (except a few Kishore numbers). And for them and their purposes – Kishore is #1.

  338. 338
    P. Haldar Says:

    I agree with myk on the “voice” aspect; Rafi’s voice in the 50s and 60s was a notch above everyone else’s. Also, you’ll have to realize that Rafi sung in multiple voices (Dilip Kumar, Rajendra Kumar, Shammi Kapoor, Dev Anand, Dharmendra,…), so it’s possible that you like one voice of his better than another. Kishore also had a very good voice during that period but he remained under-utilised as someone pointed out earlier. Sudip, I am also not sure of your evaluation of the “love” and “popularity” aspects. If you are talking about Kolkata, that may be true, but if you are talking about the whole world, it’s difficult to beat Rafi. One can understand Punjabis loving Rafi. But how do you explain Rafi’s popularity in places like Kerala and Andhra Pradesh? If you go to places like Birmingham and Manchester, Rafi is the favourite singer among Indians there. The Birmingham Symphony orchestra is actually recording a number of Rafi songs in the voice of Sonu. That voice is gold; I still don’t understand how anyone can call it “thin” or “feminine”. Is Sudesh Bhosle the current benchmark for a good voice?

  339. 339
    binu nair Says:

    The site and this subject has become a hit thanks to
    Mohd Rafi in the Kishore Kumar site. In the movies, in halls
    and stadiums, in the recording rooms and every where RAFI
    saab was a hit..
    He came as a nobody became a hero and went away as a hero…… Mumba-ites, music lovers & citizens will never forget July 31st 1980,
    when the GODS called RAFI SAAB BACK…. it will be 27 years of
    melody-less years.
    And three great singers succumbed to heart attacks : Kishore
    Kumar, Mukesh and Rafi saab…..
    Does singing affect the heart and its working…?

    binu nair….

  340. 340
    Sanjay Says:

    He’s not saying that Rafi’s voice wasn’t excelent, he’s just saying that Rafi’s ‘taan and harkatein’ was what made him inimitable. Perhaps true – even if someone had his vocals – they still couldn’t be as good as Rafi. Very credible to me. Last night I explored musicindiaonline – Sonu Nigam has a 22 volume set where he sings some famous Rafi numbers. Sonu showed good voice and ability but that ‘taan and harkatein’ was simply not there and so the songs were like cheap subsitutes for Rafi – despite the voie and ability being superb.

  341. 341
    sudip Says:

    P Haldar wrote:
    “Sudip, I am also not sure of your evaluation of the “love” and “popularity” aspects”

    —I never meant Kishore is more popular than Rafi. What I meant is I do not care for that, even if that be so. I can concede that. In ancient Greece and Rome, art was esoteric. If art is democratized, you will always get “Main bhelpuri kha raha tha” or “Mera pant bhi sexy”. By the simple 80:20 rule, 80% opinions do not count, except for the day of election. My 8-year old son thinks I am better in Math than Einstein..What does it prove? Anyway, this is my personal opinion.

    Binu wrote: “And three great singers succumbed to heart attacks : Kishore
    Kumar, Mukesh and Rafi saab…..
    Does singing affect the heart and its working…?”

    –Interesting.. And they dies almost at the same age.. But the Mangeskar sisters are alive.

    Sanjay wrote:”However, this slow song doesn’t have a lot of energy (as designed) but plenty of emotions and depth. Without that energy, it loses the trait of being immediately appreciable for ANYONE except from that group I mentioned. This, as unfair as it is, means that the song won’t be timeless as something with immediately recognizable energy, especially from a fan of the coming generations who isn’t as familiar with the classical gems.”

    –Exactly… As I said before I myself converted. I do not belong to the Rafi generation. The first Rafi song I heard at length (I had followed snippets earlier of other songs) was way after Rafi’s death. It was “Meri Kahani bhoolnewale”.
    Kishore is like whisky. It immediately strikes you. Rafi is like wine..It slowly gets on you. There are so many songs which I started linking after hearing for the nth time.

    Sanjay wrote: “This is a very interesting point. That is exactly my problem with Mohammed Rafi. One of my all time favorite songs (in a general category too!) is Rafi’s “Patthar Ke Sanam.”

    -So we agree on the basic principle though our opinions about KK and Rafi are reverse. The two songs you picked are LP songs. LP songs are generally attractive and full of embellishments. Even Mukesh’s hit numbers from Milan and DHarti kahen pukar ke were attractive. Rafi sang lot of sad songs for LP. The few ones devoid of energy are “Woh Jab yaad aye” (but this was the first LP film-Parasmani) and “Akela hoon main” (Jaal).

  342. 342
    Sanjay Says:

    As in Sonu had a good voice too (not as good as Rafi’s but good) – but what made the 1000 fold difference was the taan and harkatein. That made Rafi’s version 1000X better for me.

  343. 343
    sudip Says:

    Sanjay wrote:
    “That is why the historians / experts from the time always pick Rafi over Kishore. However, the people today who aren’t from the 50s or 60s but remember 70s well appreciate 70s music much more and don’t care as much for 50s and 60s (except a few Kishore numbers). And for them and their purposes – Kishore is #1.”

    –This is exactly the “Recency factor” that Haldar and others mentioned earlier in the thread. There will come a time when Saigal, Rafi and Kishore will be equi-distant in terms of time. The real evaluation would start then.
    I am not sure if you follow current music. Current music is trying to get out of the Sanu, Abhijeet, Vinod Rathod, Sudesh Bhosle genre- a trend of oversimplified open-throated singing started by KK. Sanu, Babul, Vinod and (to some extent) Abhijeet have been shown the door by fans.

    -Most films these days have sufi style qawwalis, soft songs and some item numbers. There are very few action songs. If Kishore and Rafi (imagine at their peak) were singing today, most songs in Gangster, Kalyug, Metro, (and the Himesh, Rahman ones) compositions would go to Rafi.
    -In all these films (take Gangster for example) different genres have been tried out, which kind of relates back to the 60s (take the “Hum dono” or “Mere Sanam” examples). The difference is that now 5 singers are singing the 5 different genres. In the 60s one person could sing them all-that was RAFI.

  344. 344
    Monty Says:

    Mr. haldar, Rafiji was very popular in London also.

  345. 345
    viswan Says:

    to rate rafis voice as thin and femine is only intented to tarnish the reputation of agreat singer.no real music lover could say so.listen the words of kj jesudas.he consider rafi as his inspiration and greatest singer of india.ithink kj is very close to rafi as a singer with real sweet voice

  346. 346
    Monty Says:

    Stupid Kishore fan, nothing Hindu-Muslim here. Are you a politician?

  347. 347
    binu nair Says:

    Viswan ji….
    Rafi ji has a thin and feminine voice..
    for their comment – Music Lovers will only laugh and kids
    below 5 years will believe it… they are making themselves
    laughing stock material…. and exposing their limited knowledge
    in defending the in-defensible…
    So pathetic and weird their ideas are my friends….
    they are like the dogs .. who bark relentlessly, when an ELEPHANT
    passes….
    Pl. do not take them seriously…

    IInd point: Yesudas is undoubtedly a great singer and in classicals
    and semi classicals he is the best… His hindi diction is wanting
    and his Mumbai tenure in late seventies witnessed limited success.

    Yesudas regards rafi saab as the best singer…. and in voice quality
    Kishore and Yesudas has a strong voice which they modulate
    quite well…..
    In fact Yesudad did a song rehearsal with rafi ji under the baton
    of ravindra jain in seventies.. .. but the song was not recorded….
    binu nair

  348. 348
    sudip Says:

    Sanjay wrote: “He’s not saying that Rafi’s voice wasn’t excelent, he’s just saying that Rafi’s ‘taan and harkatein’ was what made him inimitable. Perhaps true – even if someone had his vocals – they still couldn’t be as good as Rafi. Very credible to me. Last night I explored musicindiaonline – Sonu Nigam has a 22 volume set where he sings some famous Rafi numbers. Sonu showed good voice and ability but that ‘taan and harkatein’ was simply not there and so the songs were like cheap subsitutes for Rafi – despite the voice and ability being superb.”

    -I agree with Sanjay just as he agrees with me. Rafi had an excellent voice that had unique abilities like huskiness, an inherent pathos, sweetness, the ability to switch scale. But when you get into a discussion of “best voice” rather than “best singer” (note the difference), it gets subjective. As Sanjay said Kishore’s voice had lot of youthfulness , energy and masculinity. Similarly, Mukesh and Jagjit had enviable basses. Bhupinder and Yesudas had good depth. You can slice and dice and debate-it is difficult to arrive at “THE VOICE”.

    –Rafi’s uniqueness was in his taan and harkatein. And mind you the songs Sanjay is referring to are Rafi songs that Sonu is trying to imitate. He knows exactly what harkatein to perform, still he comes short. I was listening to a song from recent film “Hum dil de chuke sanam”- “Jhoka hawa ka aaj bhi” by Hariharan. It is very good song. I thought it is one current song that had all musical and lyrical elements of a great song, but it will just be good, never a timeless great..Rafi with his style could have made it great!

    –The other point about Rafi is Rafi exudes his sweetness from the navel. This was stated by Anandji and becomes obvious if you see the live videos in youtube. When someone sings sweet (such as Sonu and Abhijeet), one usually sings from the throat. Rafi had a very profound depth which came from his gut. It is a very subtle point. That makes him sweet even in so-called “macho” songs like “Main jaat yamla”…And just like Anandji, I also think is the biggest difference between his clones and him.

  349. 349
    binu nair Says:

    Viswan ji….
    Rafi ji has a thin and feminine voice..
    By this comment – Music Lovers will only laugh and kids
    below 5 years will believe it… they are making themselves
    laughing stock material…. and exposing their limited knowledge
    in defending the in-defensible…
    So pathetic and weird their ideas are my friends….
    they are like the dogs .. who bark relentlessly, when an ELEPHANT
    majestically passes..
    Pl. do not take them seriously… over these illiterate jokers.

    IInd point: Yesudas is undoubtedly a great singer and in classicals
    and semi classicals he is the best… His hindi diction is wanting
    and his Mumbai tenure in late seventies witnessed limited success.

    Yesudas regards rafi saab as the best singer…. and in voice quality
    Kishore and Yesudas has a strong voice which they modulate
    quite well…..
    In fact Yesudad did a song rehearsal with rafi ji under the baton
    of ravindra jain in seventies.. .. but the song was not recorded….
    binu nair

  350. 350
    Sanjay Says:

    I’m going to make a few, final, concluding remarks on my behalf. This is the first time I have ever engaged in the Rafi-Kishore debate and that is why I was particularly enthusiastic. Going to the Rafi website and seeing 800+ posts – this MONUMENTAL effort from all of us to have a debate is nothing but a drop in the ocean as this debate has been going on for 30+ years and will continue.

    My views:

    – Mohd Rafi had without a doubt, the most melodious voice of all singers. It was also very “full” – second to none in this regard. If there was any voice close to perfect – it was his. Not too deep not too soft. Just right. It is because of this that Rafi’s voice could universally suit just about any actor and indeed he sang for dozens of actors. The only thing “missing” in his voice was barritione – but barritone closes many more doors than it opens. Additionally, he could make up for it with his modulation and amazing vocal range to amplify energy. He had the best voice overall.

    - Kishore’s voice did prove superior in some specific situations – it is these specific situations that KK fans absolutel love and that is why for them KK is #1. That’s fine. Overall, however, I doubt that’d be the case and the repertoire and careers indicate who was more versatile.

    - Yes, Kishore was more suited for Amitabh because barritone goes with barritone – but barritone would look silly on the dozens of other actors. While Rafi wasn’t as great of a fit for Amitabh – he still fit very well and mixed his voice very well with Amitabh in John Johnny Janardhan. Singing for Amitabh doesn’t make you the greatest – just an example to emphasize barritone.

    - There were some songs that Kishore’s voice was better suited for than Rafi’s voice and there was some songs that Rafi’s voice was better suited for than Kishore’s voice (this number is much greater than the first IMO but no one COMPLETELY wins out).

    - Arguing who’s voice was the best is subjective. However, I think most people from the industry, when you look at overall from late 40s to 80, when you gauge ALL KINDS of music – would say Rafi was more well rounded. You really can’t deny it by seeing career or polls from such eduated people. Arguing who was better in the limited 70s period is subjective and will lead to endless debate – but do remember the limitation here.

    - Kishore was king for a specific period or genre but Rafi was king for almost 4 different periods of times. He did recover to the top with Kishore in 1980 and only someone of his greatness could have pulled off a comeback like that. Rafi had a greater career IMO with a much greater output (~6000 different songs vs ~4000 different songs). Rafi’s voice was more versatile than Kishore’s – as great as Kishore’s voice was.

    - Sometimes I do have problems with Rafi when his voice is being too soft or gets fuzzy. Listen to Dard E Dil – when he sings “kur.” Maybe he did it purposely. Rafi’s voice could have flaws at times (especially in late 80s) where his throat sounded dry. MAYBE I’m wrong and it was the equipment (very possible) or the MD direction. Nevertheless, like I said, it was the closest thing to a perfect voice for me.

    - Sudip made an excellent point. I have learned something new here. As great as Rafi’s voice and singing ability was – what really made him immortal and his songs incomparably superior to others was his harkatein and taan. His great voice could be challenged by a good voice – but that element I mentioned made the 1000 fold difference.

    - I always felt that under VERY LIMITED CONDITIONS (tone, type of song, etc) Udit Narayan could sing a song just as well as Rafi (and that probaby is the case – if the song is simpe enough that it doesn’t require a singer of Rafi’s monumental ability). For example, we agree that Rafi was the greatest singer but if one says Kishore could sing SOME songs better than Rafi (his voice was better suited), then one can also extend and say that Udit Narayan could sing even lesser songs just as good or better than Rafi. These instances are rare but acknowledge that one singer cannot win each and every time. Right singer for right song.

    I and Manish Kumar are the same person, it is just that the debate was too boringly one – sided. I don’t think the KK fans did justice to Kishore Kumar at all and made some silly comments that was an embarassment for the great singer so I tried to step in – but I see there’s really no point. This debate will continue again and again.

    My final remark is that I genuinely fear we’ll lose both Rafi & Kishore. They are eternal singers getting more popular by the day – but today’s music is utter garbage and I get depressed being exposed to it. Today’s music sells on half naked people like a MTV music video rather than the brilliant lyrics, composers, and vocalists our great country has such a rich tradition of. I hope the values of music don’t go down so much that tomorrow’s generation will not be able to appreciate Rafi and Kishore.

    It was a great pleasure discussing with you guys. I really learned a lot and had to think about this stuff and gain new perspective. I don’t have the kind of knowledge that say Sudip or P Haldar have where off the top of his head he can produce a top 20 list (that is true knowledge gained with experience and time) but I’m enthusiastic. I love Rafi and I love Kishore too and other singers. I discovered a few new songs for Rafi – a few new gems that I hadn’t heard of before.

    That Asha Rafi duet with Madhubala & Dev Anand (he’s crap) was lovely. Can’t believe that song was like 30 years before I was born and I loved it. Sudip also pointed out very well that somtimes a person has to listen to a song multiple times to get it and love it. I thought I was the only one.

    Thanks very much, hope to discuss with you guys in the future. I don’t post very frequently but every now and then I do stop by this web page or the Rafi webpage and sometimes I post at HamaraForums under my name. However, I do sometimes start trouble at HF cause I enjoy discussion I get bored of the super polite gestures – let’s get talking.

    I also do have some radical views that make me look silly. I think we should never put singers at a godly pedestal and I feel today’s two singers Alka Yagnik and Udit Narayn deserve a little more credit. Hang me, but even though Lata is greater than Alka, a handful of songs Lata could not render better such as “Tu Shayar Hai” from Saajan or “Choli Ke Peeche.”

    Anyway, I hope we discuss again. I very much enjoyed it and learned a lot and have a lot more learning to do.

    - Manish Kumar, Philadelphia, PA, USA

  351. 351
    Sanjay Says:

    Shoot, I said I wouldn’t post again, but one last request.

    MYK – I WANT THAT LIST! POST IT!

    I wouldn’t call Rafi’s voice thin or feminine. It was was just right – but it wasn’t the manliest of voices (which is good – more versatility IMO).

    Greatest voice of all – MOHD RAFI.

    Everytime I watch a movie from the 70s, I get excited to read who the playback singers will be. When I don’t see Rafi’s name, I get very sad. Last night on http://www.rajshri.com (free classic Hindi movies with many Rafi numbers for free if you have high speed internet) I saw “Buddha Mil Gaya”. Disappointed in the movie (I love Hrishida), amazed with Manna Dey’s singing (but I stil like Rafi & KK better), but VERY SAD when I didn’t see “MOHD RAFI” in the list of playback singers in the opening credits.

    Now I’m done. We’ll talk again in the future. :)

  352. 352
    P. Haldar Says:

    Sudip, let me tell you why I mentioned the “popularity” factor. I know as a true music lover, you care much more about the quality of the song rather than its popularity. That’s fine, but Rafi is more than that; RAFIana is a movement, something that we who grew up in the 60s experienced first hand. It is difficult for some of you to even appreciate what it was like.

    Rafi never got the kind of publicity and support that some of the other singers have received. Look at Dev Anand; he hardly ever mentions Rafi. Look at all the big-time producers who not only benefited from his songs but also from the fact that he waived all the royalties. He made heroes out of zeroes. And then you saw how these same people treated him just because a couple of Kishore’s songs became major hits. Kishore’s time had come, no doubt about that. But why run away from Rafi who was producing 20 to 30 major hits every year? Do you really think he wouldn’t have produced hits if given the chance? Man, he could turn any decent tune into gold!

    It’s his fans who never let him fade. I have great respect for all my fellow RAFIans who stood by him during that lean period. And when they get unduly emotional, I understand. Look at all the garbage that is being spread in the name of music: Rafi had a thin voice, Rafi had a feminine voice, Rafi couldn’t sing energetic songs, Rafi’s voice did not have much bass, Rafi couldn’t sing rock ‘n roll, Rafi had problems with some of the fast-changing harmonics, so-and-so female singer surpassed him in some song or the other, Rafi is not that popular anymore, he was only popular in the 50s and the 60s because there was no one around…. What’s coming next? He could not sing, right?

    Here are some truths:

    The Baiju Bawra songs (semi-classical in nature) were immensely popular.
    “Nain Lad Jai Hain” was a major hit, although it didn’t have the frills of …
    Most of Naushad’s films were actually golden jubilee hits.
    People still love “Suhani raat dhal chuki” (1949).
    Rafi’s voice had shakti, bhakti and masti.
    Rafi defined what playback singing was all about; no one will ever reach that level.
    You can keep discussing voice quality (bass, tonal quality, force, etc., etc.), but what SPB said (He had the TRUE VOICE) and Yesudas said (God was partial to Rafi) are the actual truth. No amount of analysis will ever change that.

  353. 353
    anonymous great Says:

    Comparisons are odious and to compare kishore and rafi is akin to comparing apples and Oranges, chalk and cheese etc.
    If KK had a strong Baritone voice, rafi had a weak feminine voice.
    KK was a eccentric extrovert while rafi was a shy modest introvert (again feminine qualities).
    KK remained untrained (thank god for that as too much of training can reduce the natural sweetness of the voice as can be confirmed by most of the MD) and rafi classically trained.
    KK appeals to the youth and appeal is universal and rafi to the elderly and esoteric few and appeal is quite narrow.
    To praise KK is to do the obvious and to praise rafi is similar to praising a classic which everyone appreciates in order to project as intellectual but no one reads.
    KK always sang all songs effortlessly while rafi tried to make simple songs difficult by unneccassarily adding harkatien and taan even when not required just to demonstrate his classical knowledge.
    KK sang with a certain spontaneity(akin to SRK) while rafi sang with a lot of method.
    India is great becoz that country is the greatest which has the greatest man or woman (kk and LM)

  354. 354
    P. Haldar Says:

    On Rafi’s popularity in the late 70s:

    Here’s an excerpt from an article published in The Telegraph (Calcutta, August 17, 1980); this writer knows how to report the truth:

    ——

    And finally, in 1977, Rafi proved once again that Hum Kissi Se Kum Nahin. In the film, all four songs sung by Rafi became superhits: the title qawaali, Kya hua tera vaada (which fetched him the Filmfare Award after a break of nine long years), Chaand mera dil and Yeh ladka haaye Allah.

    The year also saw the rage of Laila Majnu (in which he sang all the songs of rising star Rishi Kapoor, too) under the baton of Madan Mohan and Jaidev; and the third and second ranking in Binaca’s finals that year were: meri mehbooba (Dharamveer; Laxmikant-Pyarelal) and Pardah hai pardah (Amar Akbar Anthony; Laxmikant-Pyarelal.) In 1978, LP’s Apnapan got Rafi a Filmfare nomination though eventually the song landed up with a lyric award (Anand Bakshi) instead ? Aadmi musaafir hai.

    And now look at 1979-80! Just when Rafi had made a complete comeback, he’s gone! Laxmikant-Pyarelal gave him all seven songs in Sargam (four solos, three duets with Lata) and walked away with the best music award, all seven being top of the pops. They gave him four out of six in Suhaag (the other two being Asha’s) and they have been raging through the Binaca Geet Mala. They gave him five out of six (the other being Lata) in Aasha and did well enough.

    Another indication of his sure return is the fact that Dev Anand who did not go in for Rafi ever since Gambler (1969) ? in which, too, he had just one ghazal ? returned to him after 10 years in the latest Man Pasand though in just one song, under the baton of Rajesh Roshan, with Tina Munim. The weekly Binaca Geet Malas in 1980 have clearly shown so far that Rafi is dominating, sometimes with as many as 10 songs as compared to Kishore’s two (on May 28) out of a total of 16 toppers!

    As Lata Mangeshkar said after his death: “The void that was created by Saigal’s death had been filled by Rafi Saab. He sang with me for 33 years. He was an exceptional singer.”

  355. 355
    myk Says:

    Hi Sanjay:

    Thanks for your comments.

    MYK:

    1. Please do! List me AS MANY songs as you can think where Rafi has something close to the POWERFUL TONE of Kishore Kumar. I’m VERY interested.
    I predict you’ll give a list of strong tonal quality but it’ll never be quite as powerful as Kishore’s rendition. How can it? Barritone is a good thing and a bad thing. Someone with a baritone could never sing “Din Dhal Jaye.” Just as it allows you – it also limits you. It’s OK that Rafi didn’t have baritone. His HUSKY voice and his TONE were excellent even without.
    I anxiously wait for a list – make it as long as good as you can.

    It depends on how you define powerful tone. Powerful tone could be tone with great depth, with great feeling, not just loud. If you are referring to powerful as in hard on the ears, yes Kishore wins because although Rafi had songs which were POWERFUL, such as for example the western-type song she sang for SJ and RDB, he was never hard on the ears, and this is one aspect of Kishore that turns me away from him.

    2. He could change his voice to mellow and smooth to suite the an emotional or heartfelt number – Chingari Koi Badkhe (Amar Prem) or Aane Wala Pal (Golmal) sound very different from his trademark booming, powerful voice from say “Apni to Jaise Taise” from Laawaris. He could change his voice to match a drunk Amitabh in Sharabi. That’s undeniable modulation and versatility, for me.

    This was a cakewalk for Rafi. Modulation for a few actors is good, however to modulate for a variety of stars is something no singer but Rafi could do. I think true versatality is what Rafi accomplished, getting right into the character of the actor and covering a wide array of genres.

    3. If Kishore didn’t have the voice – then how could he reach such heights (and ONLY HE) to contend with Rafi? You can question anything about Kishore – his career or his training – but NOT his AMAZING VOICE.

    If you notice the songs he sang in the 70′s and 80′s were not in a wide variety of genres. If he did sing in them, it was not regular. Kishore could not succeed in ghazals, qawwali’s, classical songs, bhajans and other genres. When I mentioned voie I meant voice to cover genres, not quality voice. No one is saying Kishore didn’t have a good voice, he did, but the problem is comparing the felxibilty and quality to Rafi.

    4. True, compositions in the 50s were much more difficult. However, in an artistic sense, an easier composition is no less to me. I loved music from the 70s (and late 60s with Rafi gems – I CANNOT believe that Rafi declined in 1969 – I can think of a dozen Rafi FAVORITES from that year alone and the songs of Aradhana were different but not better). That is not entirely relevant to the value of the song.

    I also love the 70′s music as well, it is one of my favourite decades, however in general, music of the 70′s is not regarded as difficult as the previous two decades. Kishore succeeded at a time when compositions though high in artistic value were not really challenging. The types of songs he sang suited his range, it would have been a cakewalk for Rafi.

    5. My favorite Rafi-Lata duet is actually “Teri Bindiya Re” from 1973 – the “lowest” point of Rafi’s career. There’s pure magic in his voice in that song. The story of Abhimaan was completely ruined when they choose Rafi to do playback (I thought the female voice was supposed to be better in the movie than the males – certainly not in that song).

    True, however SDB went by his ‘click’ method and employed Kishore as his lead singer, and missed out more with Rafi even though they have gems to their credit in this decade.

    6. That should be told to people as a motivational period. Tell people, “even the great Kishore Kumar struggled and was about to give up. He never did though – kept persisting – and see what a rich career he had from 1969-1987” think how much he’d have missed had he given up.”

    The reason why Kishore never gave up is because of the Burmans. Originally Aradhana was supposed to be all in Rafi’s voice except probably Roop Tera Mastana which I think had a Bengali version sung by Kishore. It was his luck that the Burmans stayed behind him and Rafi went out of town so he could get a chance to sing the other songs. BUT I feel Kishore could have proved his talent anyways, however by 1970, Lata and Rafi had already set the benchmark of playback singing, and Kishore did good but never reached the standard set by Rafi.

    7. Yes that is true – but Kishore sang his own classics for Dev.

    Absolutely, and they are good as well, but as P. Haldar mentioned as an example is there a single movie in which Kishore sings for Dev in which he has three songs that can match in quality to the songs of Hum Dono. I can put Guide along with that as well.

    9. Just for my own curiosity – who sang more for Dev Anand (not that this means greatness – I don’t care for Dev Anand just curious). Rafi or Kishore?

    That’s a good question.

  356. 356
    myk Says:

    1. You talk about the greatness of Rafi’s voice. Of course it is GREAT. Think about it this way. A lot of Kishore fans don’t care for the kind of songs from the 50s and 60s. They only care for the kinds of songs in the 1970s and 1980s. The ones that demand a powerful barritone for strength. They care for sad and romantic songs too (we’ve seen this in the 70s) but don’t care for songs that require too much classical training.

    Well then those are their likes and dislikes. The problem with most Kishore fans is that they compare their favourite singer to Rafi. Not all songs in the 70′s and 80′s demanded peowersful barritone and strength. It depends on the composition. I would like to add that Rafi displayed excellent baritone in strength in his compositions, the depth of his tone was excellent. Also, not all Kishore powerful songs are hard on the ears, but I wouldn’t term that as such a great voice. Rafi had the ability to be powerful and meledious and sweet all at the SAME time, something which Kishore could not compete with him on that front.

    2. What kind of singer would such an audience like? Kishore Kumar. Whose voice would be BEST for this kind of genre? Kishore Kumar’s (before you argue this – I want that list). If you go for OVERALL SINGING with ALL KINDS of songs than I think Rafi wins easy – but it depends on the value of the fans. Lots of fans who grew up in the 70s are enchanted with that kind of music (and remember – the 70s 80s genre is big enough that it is a world of its own). This “limitation” is very broad one.

    That is fine, fans have their own particular favourites, however I don’t personally admire the majority of the 80′s decade, it wasn’t so great in terms of music IMO.

    3. If people don’t care for ghazals and qawwalis but are within certain limits (that are broad nevertheless) (and MILLIONS are) and it is just about voice and not training – then Kishore Kumar can truly contend to be #1 among those fans. Kishore’s setback in the early period was NEVER his amazing voice – it was training.

    His voice had a lot to do with it. Not quality wise but flexiblity wise, he could not cover alot of range or genres, simple as that. If you want to compare the sweetness and meledious factor, IMO Rafi wins hands down however everyone has their views. Even if he had training, it would not have helped him reach Rafi’s standard. He had a good voice, but it had its limitations, Rafi on the other hand had a voice that had multiple characteristics not just on the quality front but depth wise as well.

    4. You have to fit a singer for you purposes. Not everyone likes EVERY KIND of song. And fors specific categories – KK is #1. His voice is best. Even his limitations leave for a BIG WORLD – his great and vast career with many kinds of songs.

    Exactly, so why compare him to Rafi as many are doing here, when the comparison is not FAIR at all ?. Sanjay you are the first knowedgeable Kishore fan I have come across in this forum.

  357. 357
    myk Says:

    Sanjay,

    I didn’t know you and Manish are the same person. Like Sudip, I meant you presented some good facts about Kishore and are more knoweldgeable about him than others here are, the first person from the Kishore side who did that.

    However one of the main things you ventured into as most Kishore fans have done here is compare the two on an overall basis which should never happen. No one is denying Kishore was a good singer, but trying to pit him up against Rafi is impossible. A better comparison would be Yesudas and Rafi even though Rafi again wins in that situation as well.

    Anyways Thanks for your writeups. I am a regular at HF, but I won’t give my identity away. For that you’ll have to find out on your own :)

  358. 358
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Anyone know the position of John Johnny Janardhan on the Binaca Geet list?

  359. 359
    Manish Kumar Says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c8eYzOurEk

    I think Rafi’s voice is TOO MASCULINE for Shah Rukh Khan especially in Chura Liye. Look at the tonal quality in Dafli Wale.

    Feminine is a stupid word to describe his voice.

  360. 360
    sudip Says:

    Sanjay aka Manish: Good one.. at times I also debate myself-thesis->antithesis->synthesis..

    “My final remark is that I genuinely fear we’ll lose both Rafi & Kishore. They are eternal singers getting more popular by the day – but today’s music is utter garbage and I get depressed being exposed to it.”

    –At some point they will just become proverbial. Has any of us listened to Tansen? But Tansen has become a name, a proverb, a benchmark..To me Lata (Pls no Lata-Asha debate here) and Rafi will possibly reach that Hall of Fame in filmy music.

    “- Kishore’s voice did prove superior in some specific situations – it is these specific situations that KK fans absolutel love”
    –Lot of my friends belong to the section that is intertested in this narrow band. To them, 70% of Rafi’s songs belong to genres that do not matter to their ears. But any logical person would know to distinguish between “favorite” versus “best”. Unfortunately majority of us do not know the line between these.
    To me, Kishore versus Rafi is not a function of generations, as some people pointed out. It is a function of age. Rafi’s songs had a sublime touch backed by profound lyrics that can be apreciated as one matures.

    “Sometimes I do have problems with Rafi when his voice is being too soft or gets fuzzy.”
    –The Karz song was rather a low pitch song (especially the “kur” portion). At high pitch Rafi sometime got fuzzy but that had more to do with technology of the times (even Himesh is clear at high pitch these days). But to me, it added that mystic touch that makes the song intriguing, beyond the obvious. Take “Ayi bahar banke lubha kar” (Rajhath, SJ). I often wondered why SJ and Rafi had to choose that high octave. It almost took the breath out of Rafi..But as I listened more to the song, the slow wine effect started. It is that fuzziness that made the song attractive and not an obviously attractive one (whisky).

  361. 361
    sudip Says:

    Sweetness at its prime
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8AQ4zb8M9Q&mode=related&search=

  362. 362
    sudip Says:

    Haldar:
    “Look at Dev Anand; he hardly ever mentions Rafi.”

    –Dev did think highly of Rafi. But he switched loyalties after 1969.. Here is my theory though (not validated): Rafi was always associated with the Naushad camp and there was a strong belief (possibly a fact) that Naushad was one of the people who dissuaded Suraiyya from Dev by influencing her grandmother. I think somewhere deep in his mind Dev could not dissocciate Naushad from Suraiyya and Rafi from Naushad. Again this is my theory.

    “The year also saw the rage of Laila Majnu (in which he sang all the songs of rising star Rishi Kapoor, too) under the baton of Madan Mohan and Jaidev; and the third and second ranking in Binaca’s finals that year were: meri mehbooba (Dharamveer; Laxmikant-Pyarelal)”

    –To me, THE SONG of Dharamveer was “Arey Maine tujhko chaha”..It somehow got submerged in the popularity of “O mere mehbooba” and “Saat Ajube”.. Listen to the song. If someone is looking for tonal quality and scale transitions, it is worth listening to:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7cZ0jfrROU&mode=related&search=

    Listen to the harkatein. No one in this world can do this.

  363. 363
    A Singh Says:

    As far as SD Burman was concerned, he had a special liking for Rafi. There are many instances where he has even over ruled even Manna Dey for Rafi for many songs. The following are few references.

    http://www.sdburman.net/website/Feature_of_the_month/Features/Feature_Aug2004PradeepSinghi.htm

    Then he hummed a few more lines of another song and, as if to test my truthfulness, asked “Ei dhun ta sunechho?” (And have you heard this tune?). The tune did not sound familiar at all and I truthfully said “No.” He gave a short chuckle in his inimitable style and said, “Ei gaan ta akhonee toh compose hoyechhe. Rafi gaaibe” . (This song has just been composed!. Rafi will sing it.) He was pulling my leg! I can’t be totally sure which tune he hummed, but I have a strong feeling it was Teri bindiya re, which was sung by Rafi Saab for Abhimaan . If so, I wonder why he didn’t name Lata.

    A Tribute from S D Burman

    “Goldie’s Guide,” noted Dada, “offered me more scope to score than any other movie I had done through two decades in Hindi cinema. So that I have to concede that Rafi fulfilled my highest expectations in his rendition of Kya Se Kya Ho Gaya, Din Dhal Jaaye Haay and Tere Mere Sapne on Dev,” Dada had concluded

    SD Burman & Manna Dey – Love Hate relationship

    http://www.sdburman.net/website/Feature_of_the_month/Features/MannaDeySD.htm

    After rehearsing the song for days to SD’s satisfaction, there was often a thunder. “Now that you know the song well, guide Rafi to sing the number. I would like him to record it. I already told him that you would contact him!! “.

  364. 364
    P. Haldar Says:

    Sudip, your theory on Dev is interesting but it’s a little too far-fetched. I think Dev genuinely liked Kishore’s voice and there was a lot of bonhomie between him and the Ganguly family (remember Ashok Kumar was a mentor and friend). Kishore’s innings with Dev also started earlier, perhaps before the rift with Surayya. Also, remember that Raj Kapoor had Mukesh as his voice, Dilip Kumar had settled for Rafi, and it was quite natural for the remaining star in the Big 3 galaxy to want to have his own voice. Kishore had been producing hits for Dev since the early 50s, so there was really no need to replace him with Rafi. But from 1958 till around 1964, Dada did not use Kishore on Dev. And from around 1958 till around 1963, Lata was out of his recording room. So in those six years, he primarily relied on two singers: Rafi and Asha. It’s only in Teen Deviyan that Dada brought back Kishore and, as usual, Kishore did a wonderful job. But for Guide he turned to Rafi again to deliver those timeless jewels. I’ve read somewhere that Dev insisted that Dada give a song to Kishore and that’s why you have “Gaata rahein mere dil” (in any case, Rafi couldn’t have sung that with Lata because they had not patched up by then). Post-Aradhana, Dada was fighting an uphill battle with not only Dev but also his own son who had no more time for Rafi. The son set a new trend with Kishore and the father was forced to follow suit. He used Rafi for Gambler, IPZN and Talash, but by then the partnership — one of the most illustrious in the annals of film music — was coming to an end. I’ve given several examples of how wonderfully Rafi modulated his voice for Guru Dutt and Dev under Dada’s baton and you can bet that it did not escape the attention of Rafi’s biggest fan, the one and only Kishore. You can keep talking about “taan and harkatein” but playback singing requires other skills as well. Rafi wrote the copybook (a cricketing term that Ganguly fans will appreciate) for playback singing and Kishore executed that to perfection. Their fans will keep fighting for another 25 years — a bloodbath is currently going on in the other forum — but these two are the best “playback” singers the film industry has ever produced. Each side will naturally say that their idol is the best. There is nothing wrong in that as long as the passion is restricted to using “bhodro” language. And guess who is enjoying the “divide and rule” policy?

  365. 365
    Manish Kumar Says:

    “However one of the main things you ventured into as most Kishore fans have done here is compare the two on an overall basis which should never happen. No one is denying Kishore was a good singer, but trying to pit him up against Rafi is impossible. A better comparison would be Yesudas and Rafi even though Rafi again wins in that situation as well”

    Oh no, I agree with you. I knew right from the start that it was foolish to compare MOHD RAFI to KISHORE KUMAR on an overall level. In specific circumstances – yes but not overall. I did it anyway though to stir things up and try to make the debate more legitimate – it wasn’t and still isn’t.

    I think a better comparison would be Mohd Rafi to Lata Mangeshkar! Recency factor really kicks in for Lata. However, I’ll say this. Whereas Rafi & Kishore sometimes fought with each other for #1, Lata Mangeshkar always remained matchless CAREERWISE (as a singer, it is silly to compare male and female but I’ll do anyway – Rafi sang the duets better than Lata on more occasions for me – Teri Bindya Re – really shouldn’t have had the GREATEST PLAYBACK SINGER OF ALL TIME in MOHD RAFI for Amitabh is the female was supposed to be better). No one could contend with her – not even Asha Bhosle. She was highly skilled and had a supreme voice – but she had a stoic personality and didn’t have the taan and harkatein. I still pick Rafi over Lata but this is a more legitimate debate.

    Why don’t we ever have Lata versus Rafi debates? Proly because male female.

  366. 366
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Correction: taan and harkatein to the level of Rafi. Of course she had that quality herself!

  367. 367
    Manish Kumar Says:

    btw…i definitely am a RAFIAN…i love and admire kishore kumar, lata mangeshkar, alka yagnik, udit narayan…but by far, mohd rafi is my favorite singer. I can listen to Rafi for hours. 90% of what i listen to is Rafi – every now and then i’ll take a break from him and resort to kishore or whoever is worthy enough.

    i’m a Rafi fan but also admirer of Kishore. like i said, when i dont’ see rafi’s name in the beginning of the movie, i get sad :(

  368. 368
    P. Haldar Says:

    Mr. A. Singh,

    The tune that Pradeep Singhi mentioned in his article couldn’t have been “Teri bindiya re”, given that Abhiman came out much later. I think SD was talking about “Mehbooba teri tasveer”, the melodious Rafi solo from IPZN, which was released just before Amar Prem. That’s why he asked the boy whether he had heard the tune or not. Listen to the song carefully, especially the tabla beats, and you’ll see why the boy mixed it up with “Teri bindiya re”.

    In the second last paragraph of the article, there is a typo; it should be “Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh”, one of the greatest all-rounders of Hindustani classical music. He always considered Rafi to be the best exponent of semi-classical music, something that people on this forum may not be aware of.

  369. 369
    viswan Says:

    yesudas while delivering amemorial program on rafi said both had arehersal for a duet but the last minute he was dropped from that song for mannadey which he said pained him limitlessly the rason cited was clash of sound of rafi and jesudas.however kj was proud of that event which acknowledged his nearness to rafi as asinger.

  370. 370
    Kishore fan Says:

    Hey super-smart Monty, you don’t like attacking people on the basis of religion, at the same time choose to ignore when people are attacking others because of their race or language. What more can you expect from a “Rafi-fan”?

  371. 371
    myk Says:

    1.You can keep talking about “taan and harkatein” but playback singing requires other skills as well. Rafi wrote the copybook (a cricketing term that Ganguly fans will appreciate) for playback singing and Kishore executed that to perfection.

    I agree Rafi defined what playback singing is about, however no one reached that standard. Kishore was excellent within his range, but could not match what Rafi accomplished. I think Yesudas and SPB of the south are the most versatile singers after Rafi, however when it comes to HFM, along with Rafi and Kishore, I think Mukesh also was one of the greatest.

  372. 372
    sudip Says:

    Manish wrote:
    “s a singer, it is silly to compare male and female but I’ll do anyway – Rafi sang the duets better than Lata on more occasions for me”

    –Interestingly (and I posted this in another forum), every single song that had a Rafi version and a Lata version, Rafi’s version prevailed and was qualitatively better.

    1. Mere mehboob tujhe
    2. Ehsaan tera hoga
    3. Jiya o jiya o zara kuch bol do
    4. Dil jo na keh saka wohi raaz-e-dil
    5. Gar tum bhoola na donge
    6. Kaali ghata chhayi
    7. Teri aakhon ke siva duniya mein rakha kya hai
    8. Pardesiyon se na aakhiyan milana
    9. Jab jab bahar aaye (Taqdeer)–>I think Lata could be slightly better in this one..

    I do not think it proves anything because songs are often composed for a male and then given to a female. Kishore fans can say the same about “O sathi re”.. But I really think the Lata version of “Mere Naina Sawaan bhado” was qualitatively much better. The barritone humming and youthful rendition did not match the haunting melody that Lata had punched into the song.

    Haldar wrote: “You can keep talking about “taan and harkatein”

    The reason I do this is to take away the wind out of the VOICE based argument. If one could somehow generate a machine that produced the same frequency and vocal quality as Kishore, they would be able to re-generate “Pal pal dil ke paas”. But no machine would be able to re-generate “Main kahi kavi na ban jayoon”.

  373. 373
    sudip Says:

    Missed an important one in the list “Akele hai chale aao”. That makes it 10!

    1. Mere mehboob tujhe
    2. Ehsaan tera hoga
    3. Jiya o jiya o zara kuch bol do
    4. Dil jo na keh saka wohi raaz-e-dil
    5. Gar tum bhoola na donge
    6. Kaali ghata chhayi
    7. Teri aakhon ke siva duniya mein rakha kya hai
    8. Pardesiyon se na aakhiyan milana
    9. Jab jab bahar aaye (Taqdeer)–>I think Lata could be slightly better in this one.
    10. Akele hai chale aao (I think Lata sang it beautifully, it is right there at the start of the movie, but somehow the Rafi version prevailed)

  374. 374
    P. Haldar Says:

    myk, I agree with what you’ve said. I didn’t complete my statement on the “copybook” part because I knew someone like you or Sudip would comment on it. Here it is: Those who know the rules of grammar can also break them. Many of you are too young to have seen Vishy executing one of his favourite square cuts at the Eden Gardens or Chepauk. You can play copybook cricket but it requires someone of the calibre of Vishy to take it to a higher or a more artistic level. Among the current players, Laxman is a real artist; ball pitched outside off-stump and he goes backfoot and drives it through midwicket. It’s actually cross-bat but you won’t notice because it’s so beautiful to watch.

    All the singers you’ve mentioned are great. To deny that will be tantamount to disrespecting the opinions of millions of music lovers. I am a fanatic as far as Rafi is concerned — there is no point in hiding that — but that doesn’t preclude me from appreciating the work of others. I enjoy listening to both Kishore and Mukesh. Listen to “Dost dost na raha” composed by Shankar for Mukesh and then “Yeh mera prempatra” composed by Jaikishan for Rafi in Sangam, and you’ll realise that they made the right choices. And the same applies to “Yeh jo mohabbat hai” composed by RD for Kishore in Kati Patang.

    From whatever little I’ve heard of Yesudas and SPB, let me say this. Both are exceptional talents and both are proficient in “taan and harkatein”. One is stronger — in relative terms — in melody and the other in rhythm and gimmicks (whose influence?). But they had problems with diction. Someone like Salil or Jaidev would have exploited Yesudas and someone like RD or LP would have exploited SPB much more if they had arrived earlier and if Rafi, Mukesh and Kishore were not around. From a playback standpoint, SPB is closer to Rafi but from a purely singing standpoint, Yesudas is closer. I shouldn’t have ventured into this area because I haven’t heard their best output in Malayalam, Tamil and Telugu, but what the heck, it’s worth a try given that so many people on this thread have mentioned these two great singers.

  375. 375
    Vijendra Says:

    Both singers were great in their own ways.
    I will really really appreciate if someone can send me or show me where to find the lyrics of “Kaun si hay cheez hay, yaha nahi milti, sab kuch mil jata hai lekin ha, maa nahi milti…”
    My email is vpratap@bigpond.net.au
    Thank you.

  376. 376
    viswan Says:

    everybody says abot diction.they say yesudsa,SP failed due to their dicton.what is this thing?they all consider hindi is the only singable language in india.they just guage these great artists connected with hindionly.inother way they suggest that to be arated as abest singer one must be ahindi singer.kj is one of the best trained person in carnatic music.he is amaster in caranatic music.it is not fair to rate an artist only on the basis of diction in relation to aparticular language.hindi singer means popularity throughout a wide part of india.carnatic music is deeper and wider than any musical system prevailing in the world, wider and deeper than the hindustani.kj has mastery over the subject.

  377. 377
    Manish Kumar Says:

    My only encounter with SPB is Hum Aapke Hain Koun and Mai Pyar Kiya. He did a “good” job and I suppose he is much much better in Tamil to receive the high acclaim that he gets. Pehli Pehli Pyar was a great song but his voice was too flavored and didn’t have the natural sound (then again, Hindi is not his first language but his diction was good).

    Now Yesudas I have seen several times and I absolutely loved him. Very impressed with his voice, melody, singing ability and best of all – playback – his voice suits many actors too IMO. Who can forget that great song from Trishul (Aapke Mehki Hui or something like that), the songs from Chitchor (search this one youtube) or the songs from Choti Si Baat. GREAT singer.

    In my experiences, I’ve liked Yesudas better. But the only languages I know are Hindi and English so clearly I haven’t seen the real ability of either two so my opinion is practically meaningless.

  378. 378
    Majid Says:

    Hi,

    Can any of you tell me which movie has the song ‘Hoto se jaan chali jayengi’ by Kishore sahab..

    I am not finding this song. does this song has a diff tittle.

    Majid

  379. 379
    KRISHNA Says:

    Dear All,

    Changes are always required in our lives and comparisons are there for everything. Its a natural human tendency.
    We compare bikes, cars, girls, actors, politicians, colours, old and remake movies etc., etc., but they are only our individual choices or opinions and then getting generalised or publicised. Rafi saab and Kishoreda were simply great in thier own ways and comparing them is totally wrong. In fact, they had so much of respects for each other that we need to understand the reality and move ahead with the times. Both are great in singing. Enjoy music and stop comparing. Not withstanding the fact that I am an ardent fan of MOHAMMED RAFI SAAB, I like Kishore Kumar too.

  380. 380
    Rishi Says:

    I was going through the discussion above , i feel mohd. rafi had sweet voive and was trained well and was able to render songs. But we find very less variation in his songs. They are classically good but almost all sound same. He was on top till film industry was dominated by classical based MD.

    Whereas Kishore Kumar did not take any classical training but by sheet sheer hard work , practice he created his place in play back singing and look at the variation of songs he has sung.

    Dethroning someone who was no 1 for three decades is remarkable in itself and that to without any classical training. And till date he is the No 1 singer inspiration of crores of budding singers. No singer dead or alive has been ranked NO 1 singer even after 20 years of his death except for Kishore Kumar.

    He is the singer who changes our moods till date with his songs .

    For classical based music lover mohd rafi could be the best but for playback sing and variety of songs Kishore Kumar is the best. And will always remain one……..

    My salutes to the legendry singer.

  381. 381
    Mahavir Says:

    Well great discussion over the duo but i am a great fan of kk rather than Rafi simply because kk himself was actor and he mold himself totally which matches not only the voice but every action of the actor for which he did playback.

  382. 382
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Kishore dethroned Rafi for 7 years but Rafi made a grand comeback despite the Kishore wave and MDs used him more than Kishore from 1977-1980. That was based on merit but also a tendency from the public to accept a change after 20 years of dominance and a the emergence of new era of music. It was not based on Kishore being better but being different (obviously different and great). 30+ years overlap and Kishore only gets 7 of those years (and even that was temporary as Rafi recovered). That shows dominance right there.

    If you think Rafi’s voices all sound the same – than with that kind of unwillingnes to discern, one could say that Kishore’s songs sound all the same too (or at least just as “same” as Rafi).

    Not singing but for playback alone, Rafi was clearly the better as his voice could match many more actors than Kishore’s. Just look at the repertoire of actors for whom Rafi sang for (dozens) generation after generation and then Kishore (Dev Anand, Amitabh, Rajesh Khanna, himself, etc.). His voice fit mostly people with naturally deep voices / barritone like Amitabh whereas Rafi’s voice could fit just anyone. Name a single actor with whom Rafi could not credibly fit. Even Amitabh Bachchan (after Naseeb) (Kishore’s #1 patron) said that Rafi’s voice could suit him (not better than Kishore, but it did suit him) whereas with Kishore, his voice could not suit many actors because they’d look silly with a barritone voice.

    Mohd Rafi has been ranked #1 by many! Kishore is great within his limitations but you can’t compare him to a super singer like Mohd Rafi.

  383. 383
    Pravin Says:

    Rishi,

    You are saying nothing new, its your view, need not be the truth, and in his case it isnt.

    If Rafi sahab dosent have variety then no one else does.

    You and your likes can harp about KK, but mate, winds cant move mountains.

    R

    P

  384. 384
    binu nair Says:

    Personall speaking I like Kishor da’s voice in few songs only
    they are very good in those few ones… in others it is quite
    ordinary….
    He was a gifted singer and earned his place in the industry ..
    But, sadly there was lot of politicking with even the female singers
    taking sides post 1971- which was detrimental to good and variety
    music.
    Some of them were openly settling old scores which many insiders
    are aware and talk in private conversations.

    binu…

  385. 385
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Binu: Can you elaborate on the female singers taking sides or politics in general? You have me curious. When did Lata find out about Rafi’s letter to the Guiness Books – and how come she didn’t refuse to sing with Rafi Sahab in movies like Sargam and Kranti? lol. I like them both Rafi & Lata.

  386. 386
    Sunshine Says:

    When you stand in the open, strech your arms and look above you can only hear one voice-kishore’s. its open, melodious and what not… its your heart singing and god listening!! who knows if god is singing by himself!!

  387. 387
    shaminder jit Singh Says:

    Hey , Guys , Are u all Nuts , Why Arguing like , Both The Singers were great( Both of Them will never be Forgotten ) , and how can We judge that which song could have sung better ////, Forget It , and Please do not compare those Legends ///////////

    TAke Care U all ////

  388. 388
    binu nair Says:

    Dear Manish :
    u are taking names : u know these things , I am sure.

    I too love about 15 Indian vintage singers and I love Lata; but
    only as a singer. Nothing more than that. And I will not write about
    her in a public forum.. The world already knows about her and she
    is responsible for it. Lets not pull out things from under the carpet;
    and only enjoy the evergreen musicals.

    Shaminder jit ji..
    I love ur statement and we all should heed ur call and sentiments.
    binu nair.

  389. 389
    binu nair Says:

    dear Manish :

    A woman scorned is like a wounded TIGER : OLD WOUNDS WERE
    OPENED and OLD SCORES SETTLED when the opportunity
    came; they never missed them any time…. but GREAT men
    HAVE A LIFE OF THEIR OWN.. .. their great works will speak
    for them and live on for centuries.
    Selfish ones can do temporary harm ; in the long run they will be
    forgotten hastily, washed away – unwept and unsung.
    GREAT MEN NEVER DIE…. they live on..

    binu nair

  390. 390
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Dear fello Kishore Fans: go to google and type in “musicindiaonline piya ka ghar (1972)”. The song “Yeh Jeevan Hai” from that movie is one of my favorites from Kishore. I really loved his voice when he made it soft and low. So full of emotion, clean yet with excellent tonal quality and enunication (clarity). Definitely top 30 of my Kishore songs (but I have a lot to hear from Kishore).

  391. 391
    sudip Says:

    Rafi sings for Kishore:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=U_ZNZf6WMiM&mode=related&search=
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=rOUw8AnSBPo&mode=related&search=

  392. 392
    AR Says:

    Hi Folks

    Just to add to the endless controversy over the rafi-kishore issue:

    I was a die hard kishore fan till my 10th grade – SIMPLY loved nos like “chingari koi” and “panthi hoon main us path ki” ……

    Then I listened to “o duniya ke rakhwale” for the 1st time ever in 11th grade…….

    Do I still need to say anymore????

    BTW in my later yrs (especially after I came over to the US) I started listening to songs of the Hollywood genre and other country/folk western numbers – I found out that yodling is not uncommon in the western world and of course speaking of baritone voices there are people like Jim Reeves and Dick-Van-Dyke (listen to songs from Marry Poppins)…..and scores of others…….

    And yeah if people are looking for a true baritone voice – I’d suggest Ustd. Rashid Khan (he’s my favourite)…of course we aren’t even comparing a titan of his calibre to any others….but it’s still Rafi saab’s voice that has continued to enthrall me (and millions of others) for years……only a few days back I listened to a Rafi no after a very long time….”Mohabbat Zinda Rehti Hain”……I was simply left awestruck……

    AR
    (and yes, just for info sake…. I am a Bengali from Calcutta!)

  393. 393
    Umang Says:

    Kishoreda is Kishoreda, no doubt that Mohd. Rafi was a great singer but Kishoreda was one step ahead. Above sentence can be proved by comparing following songs which is sung by both.
    ‘janu meri jaan’, ‘tum bin jaoon kahan’, etc.
    Kishoreda was having natural voice n was a gr8 versatile singer, his yoodling is unforgetteble, eg – ‘main hoon jhumroo’, ‘tum bin”, ‘zindagi ek safar’, endless.
    the only legend in music industry according to me is KISHREDA N ONLY KISHOREDA

  394. 394
    ahmed zolfakar Says:

    iam from egypt and i was 6 year when rafi died iam not speak ordo but i loved mohd rafi more than our singers here
    in egypt when you see mohd rafi smile i am very happy .
    no comparison at all between rafi and other singers not at india only but allover world and rafi was and still the best .

  395. 395
    Manish Kumar Says:

    I was talking about Rafi maybe not having a loud booming voice. How wrong! He chose not to sound like that. Check out this clip here – hilarious esp the end. Rafi holds his ground – sounds very powerful and assertive. Ajit was a GREAT actor – Kishore’s voice suit him very well.

  396. 396
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Sorry here is the link:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zYDzJk9yvI

  397. 397
    Dominic Crasto Says:

    Throughout my childhood right up to my graduation days i adored Rafi, it was only later as i grew older i turned wiser and began appreciating Kishore voice too having come to the conclusion that no one can do everything although some can do most things…both rafi and kishore put in the best at what they did. How much opportunity each got was a matter of luck.
    I have 2 sons the elder has a soft voice and loves Rafi…the younger loves and sounds like kishore and i call them Rafi & Kishore.
    This is my personal tribute to two great singers of all time.

  398. 398
    Joy Says:

    Kishore s magic continues.. On 78th birthday of Kishore I salute the legend.. The only true test of greatnes is time and Kishore passes this with flying colours.. Magic as they say is eternal..

  399. 399
    Manish Kumar Says:

    I wish Shankar Jaikishan had gotten the assignment for Sholay (if Jaikishan hadn’t died an untimely death of alcohol poisoning). Then we’d gotten to see the greatest song with Rafi on Dharmendra & Kishore on Amitabh. Too bad – at least we had Chupke Chupke on such a great movie.

  400. 400
    Manish Kumar Says:

    So I just copied & pasted the entire debate on a word document for future use & reference – hahahaha. Do you guys realize that we did ~200 pages of text! Wow. Add a few photos and you’ve got yourself a book!

  401. 401
    Hrishikesh Naik Says:

    Why do foolish people waste their time comparing a lotus and a rose? Don’t both the flowers have their own individual beauty and charm?

  402. 402
    Anand Sinha Says:

    KK was an all round performer but not a versatile singer.He admittedly could not do justice to BHAJANS, GHAZALS, CLASSICAL based songs, QAWWALIES, PATRIOTIC SONGS etc but Rafi was outstanding in all .Rafi was & shall remain the only master versatile singer of all times.He would not have been eclipsed by KK had his voice strength & quality not deteriorated in late sixties due to ill health.He had a perfect sweet voice which retained its quality within all the octaves without becoming NASAL (Like Mukesh) or hoarse & cacophonous like KK.He had an ideal INDIAN YOUTHFUL voice unlike others who sounded aged or like elderly Fakirs.He could sing every style of Film song with perfection,ease and control whether it be MASTI, SAD, PHILOSOPHY, BHAJAN, GHAZAL (He even matched the legendary Begum Akhtar in a Khayyam-Ghalib album), CLASSICAL based, QAWWALI, PATRIOTIC, COMEDY, DANCE based, FOLK, FESTIVAL songs, WEDDING songs etc.His voice had perfect melody, sweetness, throw, modulation, feelings, soulfulness, strength, range, devotion, Adaakaari etc. Only people with superficial interest in music or outright bias have preferred KK over Rafi Sahab

  403. 403
    BOND007 Says:

    See guys lets see in this sense … few have said that “this music director chose Rafi or that music director chose Kishore. All that is fine

    BUT

    Nobody was there at that time to tell the real facts, may be if I would have been great director or an actor I would comment that Rafi was good, Kishore was best and so on

    BUT

    The ultimate truth is Kishore hit SIXER after SIXER to all corners of the boundary and there was no answer for Rafi. He was just a spectator.
    At least you guys cannot deny this. He was UNO in 70s and 80s.

  404. 404
    Anand Sinha Says:

    You have to compare the BEST of Rafi with BEST of KK NOT fix a duration viz 70,s or 80′s as BOND007 has mentioned.Undoubtedly Rafi was MUCH TOO superior in singing talents compared to KK.Songs like MAN RE TU KAAHE NA DHEER, AJHUN NA AAYE BAALMAA, MADHUBAN MEIN RAAGHIKAA, KOI SAAGAR DILKO, DIN DHAL JAAYE, TERE MERE SAPNE , BAAR BAAR DEKHO, SAR JO TERAA CHAKRAAYE, JAHAAN DAAL DAAL PAR, & innumerable others are far too outstanding for any comparison with any KK song. ONLY MUSIC LOVERS CAN UNDERSTAND & APPRECIATE these facts not casual listeners

  405. 405
    ihkhan Says:

    Dear friends,
    I see this thread has run too long. there is No doubt that rafi sahab is the best singer ever, better than lata, kishore or asha…. people will have different tastes some will like kishore’s moti awaz, some don’t. but if u just look at singing talent and nothin else, rafi sahab is far superior. I love both rafi and kishore, what we all must cultivate is the habit of respecting the greats for thier contributions and not be blinded fanatics who are keen on praising thier favourite star by degrading others,.
    let us put an end to this thread,

  406. 406
    Debjyoti Says:

    Let’s end the thread here.Kishoreda is ofcourse the greatest singer,performer,comic hero and genius.Kishoreda is infinity times better and more popular than Rafi.
    JAI KISHOREDA!!!

  407. 407
    Bond007 Says:

    Rafi supports I am sorry to say rafi was beaten from all ends by kishore, history cannot be redone, Kishore outclassed Rafi in all singing departments and that is why Kishore was number one for 2 decades till his death. I am sure after reading this you cannot deny the fact. If you guys still want to argue then I am really sorry its like ” What does Monkey know a smell of Jasime”. God has made few people whose brains cannot think or understand beyond its limit.

  408. 408
    DR.SAMIR MORE Says:

    COMPARE ANY TWO SONGS WHICH WERE SUNG BY KISHOREKUMAR AND ANY OTHER SINGER.THE KISHORE VERSION IS MOST POPULAR OUT OF THEM.EXAMPLE :MERE NAINA SAWAN BHADO ( LATA N KISHORE )
    TUM BIN JAU KAHAN ( RAFI N KISHORE )
    JISKA KOI NAHIN USKA TO ( MANNADEY N KISHORE )
    EK CHATUR NAR (MANNADEY N KISHORE )
    HAME TUMSE PYAR KITNA (PARVEEN SULTANA N KISHORE )
    INA MINA DIKA ( ASHA N KISHORE )
    IN ALL ABOVE MENATIONED SONGS U CANJ SEE THAT ALL THIS SONGS ARE IDENTIFIED AS SONGS OFK KISHORE KUMAR.
    WHAT ELSE IS NEEDED TO SAY ABOUT HIS GREAT VOICE ?

  409. 409
    Anirban Kar Says:

    Out of triumvirate, Kishore, Mukesh and Rafi. Kishoreda was the most colourful singer. He sung romantic songs in such a way that there were nobody in film industry can compare with him durings 70′s and 80′s.

    Though Lata, Md. Rafi, Mukesh were well trained singer and got many awards, they can sung all type of songs but there were some romantic songs which suits kishoreda most.
    By the way he is lucky to get RD,SD, best tunes and trio combination is marvellous. The choice of new generation is kishoreda , ask any new gen why they like kishore most.

  410. 410
    Partha Chatterjee Says:

    Most of the men who have similar-tango inside their trousers seem to like Rafi. There are some others who were close to being something similar, but unfortunately they got tangled in a different religion.

    Kishore Kumar rules even today. The current generation will not sit back to listen to CLASSICAL stuff aaa-aaa-aaa-aaa. They would listen to PURE MAGIC, which can only be found in Kishore Kumar’s voice.

    You go out today and carry out a poll, and then figure out where the balance is. Kishore Kumar will definitely have > 50% vote.. The rest will be split across the other various singers….

    Thanks,
    Partha.

  411. 411
    binu nair Says:

    Because of the great lyricists of the golden period of hindi
    music and films : youngsters of today when they – ride to
    adulthood, start getting the impact of such great words and
    works.
    In their thirties they start liking these great songs of the fifties
    up to eighties. When they turn forty or above – they are bowled
    over by these songs as their real life mirrors the great lyrics and
    the tunes which are sober.
    In short they begin to love the great works of any one or all
    singers from k.l.saighal to talat mehmood and Mohd Rafi to
    Kishore Kumar..

    Binu Nair. The Rafi Foundation Bombay binus2000@gmail.com

  412. 412
    binu nair Says:

    Fools never will learn ; they will take a few facts and leave
    out the rest as its convenient for their views. Fools grow up.

    Many facts taken together make the truth. Bunder kya jaane
    adrak ka swaad.. or how buffaloes can appreciate classical
    music…?
    Fanatics in this world are many and their justifications are
    foolish – but they feel they are the only right ones under the
    sky.
    God please give them intellect and have mercy on them.

    Binu Nair

  413. 413
    binu nair Says:

    Partha Chaterjee:

    I know of Music lovers of age 25 and above who are great
    fans of Mohd Rafi and of Vintage Music from the fifties to the
    eighties. It makes the fourth generation of Music lovers who
    love ” old hindi songs “. Some of them were not even born
    when Mohd Rafi Saab died in 1980.. His songs sway the peoples
    emotions in each mood and every mood. I would never compare
    Kishore da with Mohd Rafi. They were class apart and greats.
    If you miss this very valid point in the history of Indian Music then
    your thinking become ” jaundiced ” and “sectarian”. Same with
    some of the writers who write the same things – the whole year
    around – like a overplayed and wornout song.

    Please enjoy every type of Music and enrich your lives as one
    swallow does not make the summer.

    Binu Nair.

  414. 414
    vikas sharma Says:

    the guys who r comparing the phenomenons do this coz u will be prevented from doing a sin to music lover across the globe=

    compare these u will be prevented from doing a sin to music lovers =
    1. gavaskar vs kapil dev
    2. dilip sahib vs shahrukh
    3. vivian richards vs tendulkar
    4. michael jackson vs madonna
    5. ferrari vs bmw
    6. sampras vs fedrer
    7 mohammed ali vs mike tyson
    8 dilip sahib vs big b
    9. zeenat aman vs bipasha
    10. mahatma ghandi vs jawaharlal nehru
    11 subash chander bose vs bhagat singh
    12 hitler vs stalin
    13 gorbachov vs vladimir putin
    14 elvis presley vs bob marley
    15 indira ghandhi vs mother teresa
    16. shane warne vs muttiah murlidharan
    17 . steve waugh vs (his own brother)mark waugh
    18 sonu nigam(a disciple of rafi sahib) vs kumar sanu( a disciple of kishore da)

    19 kashmir vs switzerland

    20 mirza galib vs amir khusroo

    21 sahir ludhanavi vs anand bakshi

    22 summers vs winters

    23 A normal day vs rainy day
    if u r done with comparing these properly than u can always have the privilege to listen to these legends but if u still go for comparision than i must admit these things
    1. u r not indian citizen
    2. no sense at all of music
    3 enjoy listening to himesh reshmiya
    4. u dont have ever listened to radio
    5 u r a couch potato
    6 u dont know what u r talking about
    7 ur unemployeed and so do these kind of things

  415. 415
    vikas sharma Says:

    partha chaterjee u seems to be fool if by ur going only the music changes with the generation than u are in a wrong blog u should be in himesh reshamiya blog coz u dont know anything .

    i m also a die hard fan of rafi sahib and kishore da fan and 26 yrs old

    u must listen to vivid bharti(radio)for about five years and than u are eligible for this kind of discussion otherwise u are wasting your time coz i can let u meet my 40-50 friends of 24-26 yrs who r die hard rafiaans.

    rafi songs are like mothers lorry it is never overshadowed and cast a mindblowing effect on the music lovers of every age.

  416. 416
    Partha Chatterjee Says:

    Binu Nair,

    I am not a 25 yr old. I am a 38 yr old man. To start with let me put forth this story. When I gained my senses and started liking music (early 1980s) I was some fan of Md Rafi (post death).. but sometime in 1984-85 I heard the song “Ghoongroo ki tarah, bajta hi raha hoon main”.. I was really bowled by the tune in “kabhi toot gaya, kabhi toda gaya, sau baar mujhe phir joda gaya…”… to be very frank I have not heard of anything better than this in my life (I never used to listen much to hindi songs prior to the 1980s..).

    Then I started drawing comparisons between Rafi and Kishore… (You see most Bengali Brahmins have some sense of music in their genes, I happen to be one of them.).. I have a huge collection of songs of both Rafi and Kishore.. but after listening to them for some time.. the PURITY of Kishore’s VOICE simply overtakes the SO-CALLED CLASSICAL GENIUS of Rafi’s voice.

    I like Rafi’s songs too.. (Shirdi wale Sai Baba is one that I like the most).. but the MOOD created by KISHORE-DA’s songs just RULE the world. You can associate MOODs very easily with KISHORE-DA’s songs. Just like when you feel sad you have (GAADI BULA RAHI HAI, RUK JAANA NAHIN, etc.) which helps you re-junivate and get activated. I don’t recollect any of Rafi’s songs that helps an individual feel the same.

    Collectively though KISHORE-DA had sung far fewer songs than Rafi, these are incomparable GEMS, that rank far ahead in the HEARTS of PEOPLE than any other SINGER’s songs.

    Hopefully I have put forth my views.. These are genuine views.. I think there will be a lot of other folks sharing similar kind of view.

    If you want to figure out a KOHINOOR DIAMOND in the Hindi Playback Singing world, it has to be KISHORE-DA and no one else.

    Thanks,
    Partha.

  417. 417
    binu nair Says:

    Partha – ji : This is your right to like kishore Kumar songs . No
    problem with that. I like Kishore jis few songs. But I love
    the goldies of our veteran singers from K.L. Saighal to Mohd Rafi.
    I Know Many Bengali Brahmins. The do not use words like fu….
    like you have used. Are you scared of Rafi saabs popularity. Or do
    you have spells of hallucinations re : Rafi saab.
    Please enjoy ur music. ;Please do not spoil the name of Bengali
    Brahmins and of Kishore Kumar by using words like fu……
    It shows your class . Please mend your ways

    Binu Nair.

  418. 418
    Partha Chatterjee Says:

    Binu,

    Speaking of class… Lets say that I am a class apart… :-) The kind of language used by others are worse-er than the ’1 single word’ that I had used.

    For your information, Bengali Brahmins are known world wide to be some of the most polished set of people.

    What ever be it… I request you to carry a poll.. and lets get the figures in black-and-white. Full Stop.

    Its just 2 stanzas in 2 pages that has crazed Rafi fans like you.. That is the bottomline.. you folks got worried :-)

    I am visiting these pages for the 1st time in my life. Just 2 stanzas and thats it.. that shows the power of KISHORE KUMAR fans.

    Well thats it.. I am signing off.. I will visit these pages again after 6 months.

    Thanks,
    Partha Chatterjee.

  419. 419
    Debjyoti Says:

    Kishoreda is the best.The entire universe knows that Kishoreda is the greatest singer and versatile genius artist.
    JAI SHRI MAHAGURU KISHOREDA BHAGWAN KI!!!

  420. 420
    binu nair Says:

    Partha Ji..

    U are using dirty words and now justifying it. It shows ur class
    which I said earlier. Bengali Brahmins are polished. very right.
    But u do not seem to be so..
    Rafi lovers have very great vocabalaries but will never use them
    like you have done, please note. Please do not tarnish the name
    of two great singers : Mohd Rafi & Kishore Kumar : by your
    stinking language and please do not have any hallucinations :
    Rafi saabs name, fame reaches out to many countries and
    nationalities. Kishore Kumar ji respected Rafi saab and that
    Rafi saab has sung 11 songs for Kishore Kumar on screen.Its on
    the suggestions of Kishore Kumar himself. Please do not forget
    this truth sir.
    I love Kishore Kumar..

    Binu Nair.

  421. 421
    shashank chickermane Says:

    Binu Nair Sir,

    I want to tell that Kishorekumar was a great singer like Rafi, Mukesh & others. We cant compare any of the singers. They all are originals on their own ways. Here Kishorekumar said one of the stage show that Mukeshji gone, Rafisahab gone, but what will i alone do. He adore rafisahab & mukeshji many times & said that i not like rafi or mukesh like singer. He himself compared with other singers. He himself sang with rafi, mukesh & other singers also. So, Kishorekumar was allrounder in film industry what i can say, but he compared himself with other singers, what a great person he was. He sang one song of Mohdrafi’s in that stage show which was organised in North India – “Man re tu kaahe”. He got tears when Mukeshji & Rafisahab died. So kishore is Kishore, Rafi is Rafi. No other kishore kumar will rise in our film industry.

    Shashank_72@rediffmail.com

  422. 422
    binu nair Says:

    Shasank ji..

    I will never compare KISHORE JI and Rafi Saab.. Only fools can
    do that ..
    I love Rafi Saab but I admire Kishore ji.. no end.
    I have met Kishore Ji and spoke also with him in Abu Dhabi in
    1986. How can I not appreciate such a great person.
    But some writers herein are scary of Rafi saabs popularity so they
    come over and say : Kishore ji : you are the King… Your are the
    greatest ;. This is their right .. But donot bring legend Rafi saab
    in to this is my fervent plea..
    They use slang language too .. which is not permissible in Civil
    Society and in a Music Forum..
    So writers please note it…

    Binu Nair..

  423. 423
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Gentlemen – let’s not get personal or use unprofessional words – else the moderators will chime in and we don’t want that. A few pts I want to make.

    It is very exaggerated as to how much or how long Kishore Kumar “eclipsed” Mohammed Rafi. Mohammed Rafi was used more in 1969, 1970, and I think the numbers were close in 1971 but Kishore may have had more that year. In 1972 Kishore picked up and that year Rafi stopped singing for 8 months due to advice from some religious leaders (although Islam is a beautiful religion that has nothing against music – there are some evil music that it forbids but IMO there must have been some misunderstanding). Of course, his actions in 1972 would effect records in 1973 and that is the year Rafi sang only 23 songs – some real gems like “Aaj Mausam Bada Bei-maan Hai” ; “Tere Bindya Re” ; “Deewano Hai Deewane” ; “Yaadon Ki Barat” (love the way Rafi cuts into the middle – both singers did excellent). If THAT is his “low point” – it shows what an amazing singer he was.

    1974-1976 Kishore is number one but Rafi always manages to get in gems in between, my favorite being “Tere Galiyon Mein” with Usha Khanna. 1977 – Rafi is back on top with Kishore Kumar. He is not number 2 but number 1 with Kishore Kumar. MDs used him just as much (if not more – the records always have room for debate I know) if not more.

    Kishore had the better of Rafi for 1972-1976. No more. It was not on musical merit that Kishore got more recognition than Rafi in 1969. The song “Main Kahi Kavi Na Banjaoyo” was far superior to anything Kishore sang that year including “Roop Tera Mastana” or “Mere Sapano Ki Rani”. The voice quality, the feelings, the composition (by SJ whose favorite singer was always Rafi) – was unmatched.

    Did you know that “Roop Tera Mastana” wasn’t very popular when first heard on radio. Only when people say the PICTURISATION on a sexy Sharmila Tagore in that sensual sequence – did sex sell and along with it so did the song. The song alone was not enough. Kishore alone was not enough – people are fickle – he was part of a wave sort of like people buying so many Ipods in the US (it is a trend) – he was part of the new, single superstar Rajesh Khanna, RDB trio. Of course, another reason was that Rafi ruled for 20+ years and people always want a little bit of change – so they resorted to Kishore Kumar for a few years.

    1969: “Main Kahin Kavi Na Banjao” ; “Tumhari Nazar” ; “Yeh Reshmi Zulfen” ; “Bura Mat Suno” ; Saathiya Nahi Jaana; “Dil Ne Dil Ko Pukara” are just a few of the Mohammed Rafi masterpieces.

    1969 wasn’t about musical merit but trend & Sharmila’s sex appeal. Everyone knows that FilmFare awards are not absolute but sort of fickle between great artists where you can’t go wrong with either decision.

    1970: “Mere Mitwa” ; “Yeh Duniya Yeh Mehfil” ; “Sukh Se Saab Saathi” ; “Mera Man Tera Pysassa” ; “Jhil Mil Sitaron” – all masterpieces. Kishore had no songs in the same level as these.

    Rafi’s voice quality was supreme till about 1973 – after his break and after having sung 20,000 different times (this doesn’t mean different songs or songs recorded – it just means the total times he used his vocal cords) – naturally his voice wouldn’t be the same.

    Even then, I liked him better in duets like “Chor Sipahee” – his voice was much more lighter and cheerful (as the character dictated) melodious whereas Kishore’s voice was barritone and strong but not as melodious (as character dicated). Still, Rafi’s lighter voice was more melodious and it was cleaner whereas Kishore’s could be slightly coarse.

    Rafi had the harder part to sing in “Tum Nahin Ya Hum Nahin”. Hear Asha go to high range, hear Kishore go to high range, and then hear Rafi Sahab go to high range! His voice was clean and melodious although IMO Kishore did an equally great job.

    As for Tum Bin Jaaon Kahan: I like the Kishore version better but only because of yodelling. Rafi’s voice was CRISPER, more melodious in that song, and see the way he goes to high pitch whereas Kishore sings it flat. RDB (Kishore’s GOOD friend) had Rafi sing it first then gave it to Kishore to improve upon it. It’s also in Kishore’s good fortune that perhaps that song was personally suited for his yodelling and designed by his friend RDB – ask both singers to sing random songs and you see Kishore simply doesn’t have the RANGE or ability to sing it or his voice just doesn’t work for some songs – he had his limitations whereas Rafi had NONE – and this is why Kishore wasn’t so popular in 50s – no other lame reason.

    Definitely liked Rafi better in Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara (even though his vocals had been worn by then – much more melodious & full of emotion where Kishore sings flat and coarse).

    Kishore was a great singer – but he wasn’t as COMPLETE, as CONSISTENT, as MELODIOUS, nor CLEAN VOICE QUALITY as the Mount Everest of singing – Mohammed Rafi Sahab!

    Partha Chatterjee – I don’t need to tell you as you know you are entitled to your opinions. So be it. Each man to his own.

  424. 424
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Clarification: Rafi’s voice was still great in 1980 (miswrote by using “worn”) but it wasn’t as great as 1965 – his peak.

    Kishore Kumar was a great singer too – within his limitations. No doubt he had a great voice. Excellent voice quality in “Tum Nahin Ya Hum Nahin” ; “Rhim Jhim Gire Sawan” ; “Aacha to Hum Chalte Hain” (my favorite LP duet) ; “O Saathi Re” (tied for 1st place with Rafi’s Yahan Main Ajnabi Hoon for sad songs – incidentally both by KA) ; “Duet with Asha in Ram Balram” ; songs of Padosan – too many to list – I am not a KK hater or anything. I respect him, I listen to his songs – but in comparison to Mount Everest of singing Mohammed Rafi – he does not compare well overall.

  425. 425
    Venkatesh Srinivasan Says:

    Good Music is what is good to hear. As listeners, we individually are able to relate ourself to the tunes, the orchestration & the voice. Precisely why we tend to have favorable opinions towards a particular type of music or singer.

    There would be no end to such disputes. We should understand that the greatness of these singers lie in the truth that they are still alive among us even after so many years of their passing away mortally. We would never know their indepth class & greatness unless they differed.

    Rafi & Kishore were the undisputed rulers of Indian cinema in terms of male playback singing. Kishore did well to give the much needed support to the changing styles of Indian Film music around the 70s-80s.

    Both will be missed for ever by the industry & remain with us always through their contribution.

  426. 426
    Mujahid Says:

    To All Rafi and Kishore Fans,

    Here is a list of hard facts (like it or not, it is the bitter truth)

    There is no such thing as the greatest singer of all time.
    1) KL Saigal was the best singer till 1950.
    2) Md Rafi was the best singer till 1969.
    3) Kishore kumar trumped Md Rafi and was the best singer till 1987 when he died
    4) Rafi did make a comeback in 1973 and was around till 1980 but he could not regain the number one position from Kishore.
    5) Kishore has more Filmfare awards than Rafi.
    6) Kishore was paid more money per song than Rafi. (1980 – Kishore 25000 and Rafi 20000)
    7) When it comes to singing duets no singer has been able to dominate Kishore kumar and that includes Lata, Rafi, Asha, Mukesh, Mannadey, Yesudas and Balasubramanium etc.

    To sum it up Rafi is like Dilip kumar, whereas Kishore is like Amitabh.

  427. 427
    binu nair Says:

    Dear Mujahid :

    Sorry to say that 50% of what u said in the 10 points – are faulty
    and are not based on facts. Its ur “personal opinion” only dear sir.
    For example Aradhana was released in 1969. It requires 2 years
    to make a movie and get released . So Kishore Kumar got the
    lead only 1971 onwards and not the next day of Aradhanas release.

    About payments, Rafi saabs first song got him rs.50 and the last one
    Rs.18000 -Just the mukhda of Aas Paas in 1980, 3 days before he
    passed away. Kishore Kumar then raised his fees to rs.25000 after
    Rafi saabs demise.
    Please do not distort facts to prove your point is my sincere
    appeal to you.

    Binu Nair Mumbai….

  428. 428
    Mujahid Says:

    Binu,

    Thanks for proving my point. Rafi maxed out at 18000 and Kishore going strong at 25000 in 1980, wonder what he was making in 1987….

    For the facts, look at Binaca geet Mala 1970 charts, Kishore had 8 solos in top 25 compared to 5 of Rafi. Need I say more….

    Thanks..

  429. 429
    vicky Says:

    there are actors n there is amitabh bachan there r singers n there is rafisaab!!
    binaca geet mala in 1970 had 5 rafi solos n 8 kk solos did anyone chk it for 10-12 years bfore 1970or has gleefully forgotten to look at it? i am eager to know how many kk songs were thr in top 25 in those years. kk did not stand a chance whn rafisaab was going great guns.kk is a grt singer no doubt but rafisaab is too big for any singer..!!

  430. 430
    binu nair Says:

    Rafi saaab also sang for rupaiya one mr mujahid. money was
    not a ‘CRITERIA’ for RAFI saab. Only the song mattered for him.
    His second interest was “helping companions in distress”.
    That’s why Rafi saab is remembered, loved and revered by
    legion of followers in every part of the world.
    In May 1980, Rafi saab had 12 songs out of 16 in the popular
    Binaca geet mala and he was leading. He left this world
    as the No. 1 singer of his time.
    Kishore ji ruled from 71 to 75 as number one singer. No issue and
    no quarrel about it.
    Its now clear that one Mohd Rafi is born in many many centuries.
    I love kishore ji and please enjoy your tune and do not compare
    the great and the greatest singers of our times…

    Binu Nair. Mumbai.

  431. 431
    Mujahid Says:

    Binu and Vicky,

    Until 1969 Rafi reigned supreme, but since 1970 till 1987 Kishore reigned supreme.

    Actually it should be, There are actors, n there is Amitabh Bachchan, there r singers, n there is Kishore Kumar!!

    In 1980 Kishore had 5 solos in the yearly top 25 compared to Rafi’s 2.

    Moreover to be a “King” one has to act like a “King”, which Kishore did.

    BTW, just because Gavaskar scored more runs and centuries when compared to Vivian Richards, it doesn’t mean he was the “King”. The title of King went to Richards similarly, Rafi may be a great singer, a complete singer, a trained singer but still, he was never called a “King” because of his middle class mentality. The title of the “King” went to Kishore.

  432. 432
    vicky Says:

    mujahid,

    i am sorry to say but u dont understand how important gavaskar was to the indian team,u might compare him with anyone n might come out with a conclusion tht he was not a king but he was the first real superstar of indian cricket. anyways the topic here is abt rafisaab n kk n ther r no two ways abt it tht who was better.i admire kk n i consider him to be best allrounder to have graced the indian cinema but thn he was never a king in any field be it acting,composing,direction or singing he always had to contend with 2nd or 3rd spot how much u hate it its true !!!!

  433. 433
    binu nair Says:

    Mujahid ji..
    I will never understand your logic but will always appreciate your
    love for kishore kumar ji. We all love him – for he is an allrounder.

    Please tell me when a singers 12 songs out of 16 is played in
    a popular programme – which is the barometer of public opinion
    how ” he can’t “be ranked as No. One?
    I am talking about the ever popular binaca and later “cibaca” geet
    mala broadcast on radio ceylon every wednesday from 8.00 p.m
    to 9.00 p.m.
    In May 1980 – Mohd Rafi songs numbered 12 out of a total of 16 songs.
    And on July 31 he left this universe “forever”.
    He started singing from 1946 itself and climbed to the No. one spot in 1952 with Baiju Bawara the songs which are immortalised.
    I really cant’t understand your logic but can understand your
    love for Kishore Kumar.
    Please do not distort facts is my fervent plea to you regarding
    the greatest singer of our times..
    Please also be informed that Oct.13 is Kishore Kumar ji ‘s 20th
    death anniversary and I will be writing a “fitting” tributes in this
    thread for the veteran singer, actor, director, lyricists, composer,
    writer and many more things whom the “art” loving people will
    love and remember for time immemorial.

    Binu Nair Mumbai – The Rafi Foundation & Sargam Magazine

  434. 434
    Partha Chatterjee Says:

    Binu ji,

    Just joining the party before Oct 13th.

    Kis Kis ko same-same type ke analogy doge?

    I think you should stick to “The Rafi Foundation & Sargam Magazine” only. I have never visited any Rafi site.. since I am absolutely sure about who the TRUE GENIUS (and NO. 1) is.

    I believe its just your “fear about your idol (Rafi-saab) who has only delivered quantity and not quality”.. that brings you to KISHORE KUMAR’s portal. It shows how hard you are trying to prove (?) again-and-again the very same fact, that is already a forgone conclusion… I pity on you man.

    Well take care of your BP and health.. Try to be in proper shape.

    Thanks,
    Partha.

  435. 435
    Iqbal Says:

    Partha and Mujahid ji,
    I respect ur feelings about Kishoreda, he is without doubt the most versatile film personality India has ever seen. But please do not let this overshadow your judgement when talkin about the best when in comes to singing.
    Kishoreda no doubt a very very good singer, i should say a great singer, is not the best that ever was.
    Mohammed Rafi sahab was the best singer Indian subcontinent has seen, Ever Kishoreda himself was his big fan. As kishore’s fans Don’t You know that he himself said” I am Mohammed Rafi’s biggest fan”,
    He also blasted Jagjit singh once for making a bad statement on Rafi sahab, Kishoreda said ” WHo do these so called ghazal singers of today think they are, When people like mukesh and me dare not say anything against the legend(rafi sahab)”.
    so you see that Rafi sahab was the ultimate singer that we had and even people like Kishore and Mannadey accepted this fact and respected him. I hope you too understand this and start repectin all the musical legends,

  436. 436
    binu nair Says:

    My dear Parth ji :

    What happende to you? U promised that u will return after six
    months to write in this thread : but u have returned about
    five months earlier. what has happened? R u nervous that
    I am writing of two greatest legends and applauding them which
    u can’ digest..
    Rafi lovers are not sectarian and extremists is what I wish to say to
    you.
    Sargam is devoted to celebrating the hindi film music and the works of legends from nineteen forty five to the eighties..
    May I say that we esteem all the legends of the hindi music
    scene including Kishore Kumar – who is not ur sole personal
    property mr. Partha.
    Please learn to live with various views on legends and please do
    not lose your sleep – as we are discussing Music in a public
    domain and not in your drawing room.

    Please also try to listen to the works of singers and legends from
    saighal saab, talat mahmud, c.h.atma, manna dey, g.m.durrani,
    Pankaj Mallik, Surendra, Hemanta kumar, Rafi to Kishore kumar
    for a change.
    And may we tell u that Kishore Kumar respected saighal and rafi
    and we music lovers love all the three greats for their greatest
    unparalled contribution to hindi film music along with Talat saab,
    Manna Dey, Mukesh and Hemanta Kumar to name a few great legends.

    At least come to the level of Kishore ji is my request and pleading
    to u and cease being a sectarian personality.

    Binu nair. the rafi foundation/sargam magazine

  437. 437
    binu nair Says:

    By the way Partha ji : SARGAM MAGAZINE will definitely
    carry articles of various “music personalities”.
    The current Sargam Magazine has an article on the lovable
    Mukesh written by Biman Baruah from Assam who is a great
    Rafi fan.
    Sargam Magazine also has write-ups on composers Dattaram
    and Snehal Bhatkar who passed away this year and the media
    never reported .
    Very soon we will carry a full-fledged story on O.P. Nayyar
    and Kishore Kumar and I a m planning a S.D.BURMAN +
    R.D.BURMAN music show in Bombay very shortly.
    This is done by a Rafi fan for the love of music and music alone
    and I think I do not require to take your “consent” for the same.
    The point herein is that SARGAM magazine will talk of music
    which is loved by the people without being partial to any
    particular artist.

    Partha ji – please do not push me hard for writing about the
    legends of hindi music.

    Binu Nair The Rafi Foundation ….. Sargam Magazine.

  438. 438
    Partha Chatterjee Says:

    Binu ji,

    Binu Nair wrote…
    Partha ji – please do not push me hard for writing about the
    legends of hindi music.

    I would like to suggest you doing something of this sort.

    It will enable you to kill your time.. you see “idle brain is a devil’s workshop”.

    Thanks,
    Partha.

  439. 439
    binu nair Says:

    Parthaji :

    Ur frustration is on display and I pity ur ignorance. Please
    do not “run away” from the points of discussion and relax
    a bit. U will be all right soon.

    binu nair.

  440. 440
    binu nair Says:

    A TRIBUTE TO THE LEGEND KISHORE KUMAR

    IT is said that if you are “not” a music lover then there is a bit
    of “humanity” missing in you. More. If you are not a Kishore Kumar
    lover u are’nt a music lover – too. “Something is lacking in you”.

    Which music lover is there who will not love immortals like
    “Dukhi man mera, sun mera kehna”, “Phoolon ke rang se, dil ki
    lagan se”, Mere mehboob khayamat hogi, Aa chal ke tuzhe mai
    leke chaloon, Pyaar baatte chalo; Khwab ho tum ya koi haqueeqat;
    Ajnabi tum jaane pehchaane sa lagte ho; Yeh shaam mastaani;
    Choti si yeh duniya and many many gems of yore.

    Kishore Kumar Ganguly born at Khandwa on August 4, 1929 shares
    his birth year with Lata and Suraiya. Kishore Kumar in his youth
    brought plenty of K.L.Saighal records and practiced for a singing
    career.
    But, singing was not a lucrative career in the early days hence
    his elder brother Ashok Kumar the actor cum singer decided that
    Kishore would begin his career as an actor. He would resent
    being in front of the camera with grease paint but circumstances
    made him an actor first. He also started singing in chorus songs
    post 1948 onwards.
    Kishore’s first playback song Marne ki duaan kyoon maangu was
    on actor Dev Anand and the second was the song : Jag mag, jag
    mag karta nikhla chaand.. which was a hit number.
    He also did the “only” commercial for Brylcream. He held his
    forte in the field of acting, singing and doing comedy roles.
    In between he gave hits like Chota sa ghar hoga, Jeevan ke
    safar mein raahi, Ina mina deeka, Hum hai raahi pyaarke and
    many more hits.
    Kishore Kumar did some ninety-five movies with actresses such
    as Madhubala (7); Vyjayantimala(6); and six movies with Kumkum
    Meena Kumari , Nutan and Tanuja.
    As a composer he did movies such as Jhumroo, Chalti Ka naam
    gaadi, Door gagan ke chaaon mein, Door ka raahi and Door
    waadion ke chaaon mein.
    At a show post 1980 in distant Kolhapur, he observed a two
    minute silence before a concert to pay respects to another great
    singer the incomparable Mohd Rafi who was a friend, guide and
    colleague to Kishore Kumar.

    On October 13, 87, the multi-faceted legend suffered a massive
    heart attack at his home. It was a devastating and a cruel day.
    It was also his elder brother Ashok Kumar’s birthday too. Kishore
    the legend could not stand this attack and left us forever.
    Today, it’s twenty years and his songs have “immortalised” him
    forever.
    Legends never do die; they can only live in our hearts and minds.
    Kishore Kumar will never be forgotten.

    Binu Nair ….. The Rafi Foundation.. Mumbai…

  441. 441
    SACHIN DESHMUKH Says:

    KISHORE DA IS A GREAT SINGER. RAFI IS ALSO A GREAT SINGER.
    BUT IF YOU COMPARE KISHORE DA WITH RAFI, NO DOUBT KISHORE DA IS MUCH BETTER THAN RAFI. KISHORE DA IS GURU. AS PER MY THINKING HE IS SINGER OF THE MILLENNIUM.

  442. 442
    Avtar Says:

    Gaate to lallu bhaggu log bhi hain,kintu Maha Gayak sirf do hain:
    KISHOREda/ji & ASHAji.
    Ye dono khul(jee bhar) ke gaate the,baaki log jaise dare hue hain ya dabau me gaate hain,ya to majboori ke maare.
    Sab gayako ko milakar bhi Kishoreda jaisa gaayak nahin bante hain.

    Avtar S

  443. 443
    Partha Chatterjee Says:

    Binu ji,

    no response to the above 2 stanzas written by Sachin and Avtar??

    There was one person in this portal who had mentioned that Rafi used to sound like a pigeon (ghun ghun).. I aptly agree with that guy.

    See, there can be a whole lot of good singers, but the ‘voice quality’ that touches the heart and soul is none other than KISHORE KUMAR.

    Binuji, I think you are an old man.. (you yourself had mentioned you had met Kishore Kumar in 1986 somewhere).. I belive your age is > 50 yrs, and more importantly, you are a retired person… Avtar had mentioned ‘majboori ke maare gaana..’, I think that was an ‘apt’ answer.

    Frankly speaking if you want to praise your idol ‘Rafi saab’ go to a site that talks only about Rafi, and not yoodleeyoo.com… which I believe is for KISHORE KUMAR lovers… the greatest BOLLYWOOD playback singer…

    Thanks,
    Partha.

  444. 444
    Mujahid Says:

    Everybody,

    Forget about Kishore, the fact is, even Kishore’s clones are whipping Rafi’s clones. BTW Udit Narayan is not a Rafi clone. The only Rafi clone who is holding some ground is Sonu Nigam and that is because Kumar Sanu has taken a break. Even today the current best singer is a Kishore clone “Abhijeet”.

  445. 445
    binu nair Says:

    Mr.Rajiv Vijaykar a noted music critic has written in Screen that
    music companies are making great losses and are on the verge
    of closing down if the music of new releases do not sell in
    a ‘big way’.

    Sanu and also Abhjeet are partly responsible for this mess.
    Music composers led by AR Rehman and company and present
    day directors are the real villains of the piece..
    Present daymusic lovers and composers are in a big minority and ‘old is gold’ and this sells in great numbers – is proved once again.

    Its time Mr. Mujahid – you stop talking from your hat and
    change your tune. The Earlier , the Better.

    Binu Nair. Mumbai..

  446. 446
    binu nair Says:

    Partha : Please before opening up, understand Kishore Ji well
    and don’t become a laughing stock.
    We all love Kishore Kumar.
    The singing genius loved K.L.Saigal and Mohd Rafi – not for
    their personalities but for their singing abilities. They are dead
    and gone and they can never answer your lies and slanders.
    Go on ignorant folks. Call them any names. It will never matter
    to them.
    It can only soothe your false pride..
    They became legends in their life time itself and your comments
    does’nt matter. Folks u are just showing ur ignorance about Music
    and Kishore Kumar. We pity you people..

    Binu Nair….. Mumbai…

  447. 447
    Vikram Says:

    If singing for Amitabh is the yardstick, then I rest my case. Sudesh Bhosle would win a million times. I like KK and Rafi both. But when it comes to calling a spade a spade, I prefer Rafi. He was peerless. His control over his voice was matchless. There is no point in comparing the two. Kishore was great in his own way, but had his limitations. He has sung a lot of songs that are pure gems. I would rather enjoy their work.

  448. 448
    Vikram Says:

    Partha, for god’s and KK’s sake keep your ridiculous and poisonous comments to yourself. Do You know that you are the latest laughing stock on the web? I would suggest you to first learn something about music and then pen your views. I am sure you will be a changed man, if you are one. You are hell bent upon demeaning Rafi. Why? Because you can not digest the fact that his voice was divine and that he was way above the rest of the competition as far as singing goes. KK never had a problem with that. Rafi doest not need validation of his singing talent from somebody who is as ignorant as you. I have the highest regards for KK. He had a great voice and sang with sheer energy. Even though he was not a trained singer, but had a lot of innate qualities. But, at the same time he also knew that Rafi was the better singer. Popularity at a particular point of time is not the parameter of being great. Right now you are very popular on this forum for your absurd comments, but that does not mean you are an authority on all the fools. I am sure there are plenty of them like you. KK needs better followers than you.

  449. 449
    Mujahid Says:

    Mr Binu,

    Whenever I present you with obvious facts, you take a trip down memory lane, whats with that? I mean, I have never questioned the greatness of Rafi and all the other legends, they are great, no doubt about it.

    But how could possible think Rafi is better than Kishore ? If you really do so present me with obvious facts similar to what I have produced so far, please…

    Look at the music scenario today or for that matter, for the past 20 years or so, you can get a pretty good idea of what has been going on. I agree the quality of music has substantially deteriorated but then who is to be blamed, not Sanu and Abhijeet, they have given some of the best melodies in recent times, take for example Ashiqui, Dilwale Dulhaniya le jayenge, Yes boss, Hum dil de chuke sanam and so on.

    Any avid music fan can vouch for the fact that these songs if not better are at least on par with the songs of 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. As is with other things in life there are good songs and bad songs, originals and copies, but its just the way it is.

    So, stop living in the past and move on with the times.

  450. 450
    Sudip Says:

    Enough has been said about “Tum bin jaoon kahan” (Pyar Ka Mausam).. Though I personally felt the Rafi version was better sung, the Kishore version was more popular.

    The reason is NOT the quality of singing NOR the voice.

    Kishore was primarily a light vocal singer and “Tum bin jaoon kahan” would figure among the top 50 of Kishore’s songs.

    Rafi had a much bigger range and a light song like “Tum bin jaoon kahan” would not figure among even top 200 Rafi songs. It is way too cheap for most people who listen to Rafi.. When you think of Rafi’s best you have to consider “Man tadpat” or “Tumhari zulf ke saaye” or “Main nigahen tere chehre” or “Kabhi khud pe” or “Door rehkar na karo baat” and the likes.

    “Tum bin jaoon kahan” belongs to the light genre of “Aanewala pal” or “pal pal dil ke paas” and therefore easily finds a place in Kishore’s sentimental hits..

    Rafi’s sentimental hits are a much longer shot…

  451. 451
    Partha Chatterjee Says:

    There is this KK classic.

    ‘Chingari koyi bhadke ..’

    Thats what is happening at the moment :-)

    Partha.

  452. 452
    Partha Chatterjee Says:

    Lastly, ‘Well said Mujahid’. You do prove the theory that ‘KK fans are better intellects’ and ‘not a bunch of insane jokers’.

    Partha.

  453. 453
    Vikram Says:

    Partha, you are improving with every post of yours. Your choice of words seems to be getting better. KK was definitely a great exponent of playback singing. Rafi had once remarked that nobody could have sung “Dukhi man mere”, better than KK. They had mutual admiration for each other. I don’t think they ever had any rivalry between them. But to say that Kishore was a better singer then Rafi would just not be right. Rafi’s voice was out of this world. Even Manna Dey (He knows a little something about music) accepts the fact that Mohd. Rafi was way above the rest of the competition. Facts can not be changed. Can you change Newton’s laws of motion?

  454. 454
    Debjyoti Says:

    Kishore Kumar is the best. Kishore Kumar is the best. Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.

  455. 455
    binu nair Says:

    Mujahid : Open ur ears and listen to classics and go down the
    memory lane a bit.
    Listen to Kishore, rafi, mukesh, hemant, saighal, talat, lata,
    asha and others.
    You will find that rafi has sung all type of songs including classicals
    which places him – head and shoulders high from all singers.
    We all love Kishore ji but please do not be biased and run down
    the golden era songs.
    Kishore Kumar too belonged to this ‘great era’ sir.

    Binu Nair.

  456. 456
    Partha Chatterjee Says:

    Vikram,

    Thanks for the complement.

    BTW, please don’t talk about comments made by Manna Dey. He is one of the losers when it comes to Hindi Film Industry. He definitely is a very good singer (no one could have sung ‘laaga chunari mein daag’ more lucidly/fluently than him), but unfortunately the advent of ‘Kishore Kumar’ just threw him out of the industry. Hence he has ‘extreme envy’ when it comes to Kishore Kumar. The comments that Manna Dey makes about Kishore Kumar just brings out the poor old man’s frustration. Thats it!

    There is no replacement for Kishore Kumar as the ‘KING of HINDI PLAYBACK INDUSTRY’. Thats it. I am just re-iterating what I and a whole bunch of other ‘intellects’ have been suggesting/insisting.

    Thanks,
    Partha.

  457. 457
    Vikram Says:

    Debjyoti, stop being a parrot. It might mimic speech and cram up a few lines, but still remains a parrot. You are like a newborn baby who only knows how to cry. I would suggest you and others like you to go through the survey conducted by the “OUTLOOK” magazine about the best ever songs from hindi films. Mohd. Rafi has seven songs compared to KK’s two in the top twenty. Guess what! Rafi’s song “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare”, was voted the best ever. Don’t be srprised if you don’t find KK in the list of the most popular playback singers ever (Only Rafi and Lata are listed). To lend credibility to the survey, the jury included lyricists, singerrs and music directors from Bollywood. A few of them included Abhijeet, Kumar Sanu, Sonu Nigham, Shaan, Manna Dey,Anu Malik, Bhappi Lahri, Himesh Reshmmaiya, Rajesh Roshan,Shantanu Moitra, Ehsaan, Loy, Gulzaar and others. What does it tell us? Do I need to elaborate? Even Lata had only six songs in the top twenty. Again I am not referring to this survey to demean KK. He was a great singer, and will always remain so. But accept it or not my friend, Rafi is just beyond comparision. Yes, if you talk about someone who could act, sing and compose, ofcourse KK was way above the rest of them, Rafi included. The sum of parts was greater than the individual in his case. Rafi on the other hand was a pure playback singer. The way he stressed on each and every word in the song was sheer magic. Someone had once remarked that” if god were to sing, he would sing in Rafi’s voice”. Please stop demeaning Rafi. As a human being he was spotless and perfect . He never hurt anybody while he was alive. In fact, he helped so many people in the film industry financially and in other ways. Those who write just to trash the best singer that we ever had, should learn from his life as to how to conduct oneself in social domain with humility and a pupose.

  458. 458
    binu nair Says:

    Mujahid : Please do not degrade ‘the golden era songs’ . you may
    not have an ear for these ‘ golden works of pure joy ‘ crafted
    by able men and women – with their blood and sweat.
    But, I am sure that your next generation and many more may on
    occassions burst in to evergreen classic songs : Baar Baar din ye
    ayeh, from farz; Yahoo, chaahe koi mujhe junglee….. (Junglee)
    Teri pyaari pyari surat ko.. kisi ke nazar na lage.. (Sasural)
    Yeh jo mohabbat hai (Kati Patang); Baharon phool barsaao, mera
    mehboob aaya hai(Suraj); Tumna Mujhe dekha hokar meherban (
    Teesri Manzil), Hui shaam unaka khayaal aa gaya; Jil mil sitaron
    ka aaangan hoga (Jeevan Mrityu); Mere mehboob khayamat hogi -
    Kishore- Mr.X; Pal Pal dil ke saath – Kishore ; and many many many
    great ‘golden’ numbers. The list is endless.
    It will be beyond you to stop your generations and your great
    grand-sons and grand daughters – away from listening to these
    ‘greatest gems’ from the music sphere.

    Binu Nair…; Mumbai..

  459. 459
    Debjyoti Says:

    Kishore Kumar is the best. Kishore Kumar is the best. Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.Kishore Kumar is the best.

  460. 460
    Gaurav Says:

    One thing I’ve noticed is the gradual decline in the complexity of songs as KK became famous. That speaks about how singing had become “relatively easy”. All you needed was a good resonating voice, and the composers would create songs that would suit your voice, and won’t demand much. If you had a good voice and could hold tune, the songs were not that difficult to sing. Not unlike the 50s where the composers composed an amazing array of songs, and the singers had to adapt.

    Makes me wonder could KK ever sing Man Tarpad Hari Darshan, or O Duniya Ke Rakhwaale. Yes, KK had a beautiful resonating voice, but the range of songs was limited. Yes, you may now argue that KK sang classical songs too, but none of those classical songs compare to what Rafi sang.

    My point here is not to argue over who is better. But rather to highlight how the musical standards (if held against true Hindustani, raga-based, classic music) have fallen, ever since Rafi bid-adieu. With that, I’ll leave you to speculate now who is actually better?

  461. 461
    A Singh Says:

    Hi Muhajid,

    Your comment – “So, stop living in the past and move on with the times.”

    We all move with times perhaps the past music and melodies are too perfect and melodious to be forgotten for ever. The same holds true for KK’s contribution of the early 70s as well.

    The music of films you mentioned Ashiqui, Dilwale Dulhaniya le jayenge, Yes boss, Hum dil de chuke sanam is good but cannot be placed on par with the songs of 50s, 60s and early 70s, just no way man. Because there is big different between a good and a great music.

    A classic example is Umrao Jaan of 1981 and that of 2006. Both films are good. I would not like to compare Rekha with Ashwayria, she acted exceptional well. But the Umrao Jaan of 2006 failed because of the music lacked the “Moghali Touch” compared to the former.

    Coming back to the songs 50s and 60s sung by any singer (leave Rafi aside) give tremendous piece of mind, which I believe is very much needed in todays hectic life style.

    Commenting of Rafi listen to songs “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale”; “Mann Tadpat Hari Darshan”; “Madhuban Mein Radhika”; “Mann Re Tu Kaahe Naa Dhir”, etc when you suffer from 102 degree fever next time. Your fever will come down to 99. It is a tried and tested. In other words Rafi’s voice possesses remedial powers.

    Possibly you may be aware that music is used in practice to cure illness & diseases in many countries world wide.

  462. 462
    Anil Says:

    I am surprised at people who say Rafi is better than kishore. I guess most of the people who LIKE rafi are quite aged probably in their 40′s , 50′s.

    Kishore voice is awesome and so melodious. The youthfulness that kishore brings in his songs.

    I think people who say Rafi is better than Kishore are fanatics and probably do not have any sense of music.

    Imagine the music industry without Kishore! I can’t even dream of that. But if Rafi wouldn’t have been there it really wouldn”t have made any difference.

    KISHORE is a blessing.

  463. 463
    Gaurav Says:

    Excuse me? For all I care, if Kishore had not been in the music industry, it still would have done fine. And when you say Rafi fans are fanatic and have no sense of music, I can smell the same fanaticism and lack of musical sense in you when you uphold Kishore.

    No. I’m not aged. I’m 19. And I love Rafi. That’s just a blatant generalization.

  464. 464
    Vikram Says:

    Mr. Anil I would call you the greatest joke ever if you keep loving KK once you are 40 years old. It’s your frustration, nothing else. How can you generalize music based on age? There was this guy on “Sare ga Ma little champs” who sang “Albela sajan Aayo Re”. It’s a pure classical song. He was hardly ten years old. What it tells us all is that age will never define good music. All you need is good musical ears. Your views are blasphemous. By the way I am pretty young. KK no doubt was a rare talent, but does not even come close to Rafi. Rafi and Lata are beyond comparision. You can compare rest of the singers with KK. As I mentioned in one of my earleir posts, please refer to the Outlook survey to clear your doubts. KK was not even mentioned in the most popular singer category. Only Rafi and Lata found a mention. KK doesn’t become the best because you think so. Rafi towers over KK because the public and the real music lovers think so. Accept the fact. Rafi did playback for Kk a number of times, despite him being a good singer. As a singer KK was one-dimensional where as Rafi on the other hand was multi-dimensional. KK used to sing flat. He had very few variations. Rafi was a singer for all occassions and all kinds of songs. He didn’t have any particular style. He could mould his voice as the situation demanded.

  465. 465
    Himanshu Says:

    RAfi’s voice was swet but not sexy unlike kishore.

  466. 466
    dhani ram Says:

    Only Rafi was a perfect singer.No other singer had his modulations.Kishore Kumar’s rise in film singing coincided with decline in music.Music became noisy,more of cacophany than melody.In Indian film music was at its best in fifties and early sixties,kishore was nowhere.He was known for his clownish acting and singing.He can’t be compared with any of the great singers like Talat,Mukesh,Hemant etc.Even Mahendra Kapoor is better though the number of songs sung by him is negligible.The quality of music can’t be determined by the ignorant masses but by those who are well-versed in the field.By common consent,K.L.Saigal is rated very high as a singer.The reason is he poured his soul into songs which had poetry of very high quality.Talat has sung Ghalib and other very great poets.Then in more recent times.Sahir Ludhianvi was wonderfully rendered by Rafi.Songs like Maine shayad tumhen pehle bhi kabhi dekha hai or kabhi khud pe kabhi halaat pe rona aya or chalo ik bar phir se ajnabi ban jayen ham dono were beyond Kishore’s singing capabilities.Kishore was more of a showman than an artist.kishore is liked by those who love shore(meaningless noise).

    In any case,the debate is futile because tastes are acquired through assiduous efforts.Why don’t the masses listen to classical music?Because classical music requires trained sensibilities.Those who don’t have time or inclination to refine their taste opt for low quality.

    Some Bengali brethren seem to support Kishore simply for ethnic reasons.But Bengal has very high traditions of music.May I know which Bengali songs has Kishore sung,including Rabinder Sangeet?

  467. 467
    Partha Chatterjee Says:

    bhaiyya,

    during the ‘so called golden days’ we had really dynamic heros like ‘bharat bhushan, rajendra kumar, dilip kumar, ‘yawn”. ‘do sitaron ka zamin’ kind of songs?????

    I am surprised.

    The current lot of men (born in and around 1970) do love ‘yeh sham mastani, mere deewane pan ki, chookar mere man ko’. Even talking about the current lot of singers … they sing in their ‘natural voice’… a kind of voice that was so much publicised by Kishore Kumar.

    There is no denying of the fact that Rafi was a good singer. But the point to note is that the current music trend (or should I call it the ‘latest’ and ‘enjoyable’ trend) is more of a Kishore Kumar kinda songs.

    Well I re-visited this site after quite a few days, and I am amused at the comments made by the pro-Rafi fans. I believe this lot of men are fanatic.

    Thanks,
    Partha.

  468. 468
    binu nair Says:

    Anil ji:

    Pl. do not be surprised by the number of Rafi supporters and
    lovers. The world is filled with them. This is not to ‘demean’
    kishore da in any way. We love all the great artists who has
    given us so much happiness.
    Last week I was on a pleasant journey to attend a marriage.
    A musical evening was kept for the guests a day prior to the
    occassion.
    There was a flow of Rafi numbers at the venue by singers -
    most of them senior doctors in Trichur.
    There was one song of Kishore da – Mere Sapnon ki rani kab
    aayegi tu, sung by a relative and we enjoyed it to the core.
    No.. Rafi lovers are not very old or aged as u think.
    The groom is a doctorby profession and a singer by passion.
    He is born in 1980 the year Rafi left us.
    The lad in the ‘Voice of India’ show on star t.v. Abhas Joshi is just
    17 years old; born in 1990 ten years after Rafi left this world.

    Kindly do not compare the two great singers and also do not
    think too much as you will tend to lose your sleep.
    Please enjoy your music is a sincere advice to you.

    Binu Nair…. //Mumbai…//

  469. 469
    vicky Says:

    partha,

    i have read a few of ur comments and but the best one was manna being blown away by kk. wow thts the first one for me….. okie lets get back to tht post of urs manna was blown off by kk ….manna was blown off by kk in the 70s…. manna whose career n peak time was over by late 60s was blown off by kk in the 70s…. i hope i have read it properly!! manna who gave us songs like ‘chalat musafir’,'dil ka haal suunne’,'laga chunari mein daag’,'yeh ishq ishq hain’,'sur na saaje’; fast forward n come to the 70s n the same guy was playing second fiddle to kk in the song ‘yeh dosti’ thnks not only to the kk wave but also rdb !! manna was blown off way back in the 50s itself by the phenomenon named rafisaab , by the time kk reached his peak manna was a spent force….!!

    had rafisaab been not thr manna definitely wud have been the top singer of tht era(but who wud have sung songs for shammi kapoor,dilip kumar n rajendra kumar i dont know)!! dont call manna a loser look in the mirror first u wud find a bigger loser than him…!!!!

  470. 470
    vicky Says:

    vikram,

    i dont agree with the last few lines of ur last post. i dont thnk kk was a flat singer he had a good throw in his voice n a good voice but at the same time i agree tht the variations in his voice n style were less till the end. from the late 70s kk made his voice very heavy n cud never get his sonorous voice back. in the 80s he was singing some of worst songs not only of his career but also of hfm.the 80s wch cud be termed as the worst musical year in the hfm history was dominated by kk with poor rafi clones like shabbir kumar,shailendra singh ,anwar n mohd aziz. this wud always stay a mystery tht how the death of rafisaab resulted into a complete decay of musical standards in the space of 3 years.

  471. 471
    vicky Says:

    dhaniram ji

    the song chalo ek bar phir se is sung by mahendra kaporr n not rafisaab

  472. 472
    Manish Kumar Says:

    i do feel bad about manna dey. partha is sort of right. to be cruelly blunt… kk did overshadow him, at least in the 70s. manna dey for all his singing talents – did not have the MAGIC or personality of rafi & kishore. rafi & kishore were great singers AND had the X factor. kishore and manna are interesting contrasts. one is extreme in skill level whereas the other is extreme in the X factor.

    mohd rafi is a completely different case however…he is the mount everest of singing – no one can overshadow him!

  473. 473
    Manish Kumar Says:

    that is why when people talk about singers of the past, with male singers – it is always between rafi & kishore with mukesh sporadically. of course – popularity doesn’t indicate greatness but it is something to consider.

    as for umrao jaan – alka yagnik is a GREAT singer. if she had high quality music directors of 60s for her album – she would do SUPER. i admire her the most after lata mangeshkar (who is incomparable) of the female singers.

  474. 474
    Dhani Ram Says:

    Yes,chalo ik bar phir se ajnabi ban jayen was sung by Mahendra Kapur.I didn’t say it was sung by Rafi.My point was that singing of the highest order was perhaps beyond the capabilities of Kishore Kumar.Films and film music are forms of popular art meant primarily for undiscerning masses.Rarely does a movie rise above the level of the illiterate masses or semi-literate people.They lap up what the cognoscenti call kitsch.Even Rafi for whom I have the highest regard as a singer sang a great deal of rubbish to meet the demands of film makers.The purpose of most of the movies is cheap and ad hoc entertainment.Therefore just as we graduate from nursery classes onwards,there is progression in music also.From Kishore and Rafi’s chahe mujhe koi junglee kahe stuff we move on to music of higher domain where we find some of Rafi, much of Talat and Mukesh,even Mahendra Kapur admirable.Unfortunately,just as some people don’t make any progress in education,in music also people are unable to shake off there juvenile tastes.Otherwise one would move from film music on to folk music,ghazals,semi-classical and classical and will get a deeper understanding of the art of music.When Pakistani ghazal maestro Mehndi Hassan burst upon the scene in late sixties,Lata Mangeshkar herself said,”Unke gale se Bhagwan bolta hai.” She frankly admitted that much(and much indeed) of what she had sung for films was trash.Only a couple of days back I heard Sarakti jaye hai rukh se nakaab aahista aahista in Kishore’s voice and was rudely shocked.Kishore shouldn’t have even attempted to sing this ghazal.How mellifluously has Jagjit Singh rendered it!

    Much is made of mere sapnon ki rani kab aayegi tu.Can there be a cruder expression of tender feelings of love?This song arouses images of road side Romeos making girls’ lives miserable.Even in the movie it is sung by a brainless eve teaser.

    I mentioned Mahendra Kapur deliberately because,despite his meagre output,he sang songs of very high quality in a voice that had stupendous range.Someone in one of the posts said that Kishore’s voice is sexy while Rafi’s is not.Well,it is to each according to his tastes.However,talking of sexy songs,there is one by Mahendra Kapur Ai jaane chaman tera gora badan jaise khilta hua ghulab.Is there anything so sweet in Kishore’s repertoire?Talat’s last song was yeh hawa yeh raat yeh chandni teri ik adaa pe nissar hai after which he had to quit film
    singing,not because he couldn’t sing but because great music was swept out of Hindi cinema by the storm that blew with Kishore.

    Finally, one’s taste in music as in other things, depends upon what kind of person one is.If you are a lover of a woman you will sing with Rafi chaudvin ka chand ho or baharo phool barsao but if you are a marauding woman basher croon mere sapnon ki rani or roop tera mastana.The choice is yours.

  475. 475
    Krupesh Says:

    Dear All.

    U all are comaparing Rafi Saab with Kishore da……….Rafi fans says Rafi is great……….Kishore fans says Kishore is great.

    Lata is best female singer & Rafi is best male singer of MILLIENIUN. That award gave by three institutions.

    But, Rafi Saab No. 1 among all male-female singers….just compare few songs sung by Rafi & Late separatle….& Rafi sung best

    1. Tum mujhe yun bhula na paoge
    2. O mere shahekhuban
    3. Ahesan tera hoga
    4. Teri ankhon ke siva
    5. Gar tum bhula na doge
    6. Aji humse bachkar
    7.Jindagi bar nahi bhiilegi
    8. Aaj kal mein dhal gaya.

    Even Lata told to Amin Sayani in year 2005 on Radio…She was unable to sing Tum mughe yun bhula paoge, compose by Jaikishan….then first this song recorded in voice of Rafi Saab & then lata…

    same happend with “O mere shahekhuba o meri jane jana…”

    I have this recording in original.

    So…….Who is best…….only RAFI SAAB

  476. 476
    Sudip Says:

    Vicky made a very good point.. I love Kishore of the 50s and 60s-Dilli Ka Thug, Door Ka Rahi, Door gagan Ki, Teen Deviyan… But I do not like KK of the so-called Kishore Kumar era..In the late 70s and 80s, his voice became heavy and flat, full of heroics and less of melody.. Any KK fan : Pls compare the songs of Door Ka rahi with that of Sagar or Lawaaris, you will understand what I mean..

    Partha: I am a Bengali born in the 70s..The recent Sa Re Ga Ma pa winner Aneek Dhar is a bengali born in the 80s. What binds us two is love and respect for Rafi saab.. Rafi is for all ages. What I must argue though is people as their sensibilities get more mature tend to love Rafi more..The yound generation that you talk of will love Rafi more once they come out the frivolous world of discotheques and plunge into deep and profound domains…

    And you mentioned recent songs..recent songs are trying to revive the variation of the 60s that Kishore had spoilt..Take the songs of Gangster-it has Qawaalis, Sufi, soft romantic numbers. Do you think “Ya Ali” would have been sung by Kishore?? Or “Kaisi hai yeh rut” from Dil Chahta Hai?? Or all songs of “Hum dil de chuke Sanam” or “Veer Zaara”? All these songs belong to the Rafi genre… Kishore’s legacy is only alive through trash such as “Dhoom machale” type of numbers..

  477. 477
    Anil Says:

    Binu Sirji:

    I always love GOOD music. What happened at trichur doesn’t PROVE anything nor it doesn’t matter anybody! Just remove the songs of kishore da from your list and then see what it feels like. Kishore filled the void that indian music industry had for so many years even when rafi or others were there.

    I like some of the Rafi songs! But unfortunate majority of his songs doesn’t interest any of the Kishoreda fans.

  478. 478
    Anil Says:

    Vikram sirji,

    There are so many people who keep singing Rafi songs. And sirji most of the saregama singers are of no use just like most of the Rafi fans. Rafi was a great singer but still he was jobless in the 70′s because of fans like you! Please don’t bring Latji here. Lataji is simply great but Rafi is not.

    Kishore da wiped out Rafi and History cannot be changed!

  479. 479
    Krupesh Says:

    Dear All.

    U all are comaparing Rafi Saab with Kishore da……….Rafi fans says Rafi is great……….Kishore fans says Kishore is great.

    Lata is best female singer & Rafi is best male singer of MILLIENIUN. That award gave by three institutions.

    But, Rafi Saab No. 1 among all male-female singers….just compare few songs sung by Rafi & Late separatle….& Rafi sung best

    1. Tum mujhe yun bhula na paoge
    2. O mere shahekhuban
    3. Ahesan tera hoga
    4. Teri ankhon ke siva
    5. Gar tum bhula na doge
    6. Aji humse bachkar
    7.Jindagi bar nahi bhiilegi
    8. Aaj kal mein dhal gaya.

    Even Lata told to Amin Sayani in year 2005 on Radio…She was unable to sing Tum mughe yun bhula paoge, compose by Jaikishan….then first this song recorded in voice of Rafi Saab & then lata…

    same happend with “O mere shahekhuba o meri jane jana…”

    I have this recording in original.

    So…….Who is best…….only RAFI SAAB

  480. 480
    Vikram Says:

    Vicky,
    You are right. I did not mean to demean KK. I used the word Flat in context to the very few variations in his singing style. He had a great voice. Again Rafi’s was technically perfect and much more melodious. Kishore did not have even 1/10th of the throw and retraction that Rafi had. No doubt kishore has lent his voice to some absolute gems that are matchless.
    Partha,
    You have done a great dis-service to all the KK fans and music lovers by calling Manna Dey a loser. We all have our likes and dislikes, but that doesn’t give us an authority to discredit legendary singers.

  481. 481
    Vikram Says:

    Anil,
    Do you know what a pigeon does when it encounters a predator? It fools itself by closing its eyes, thinking – it is invisible. You are also living in this state of mind. It’s not hard to ignore reality, but it comes back to haunt us when we are wide awake. I don’t at all agree with your absurd contention that in the 70′s Rafi was jobless. Infact, during this period he gave some of his and that era’s most popular hits. The variety he offered in the 70′s was just amazing and out of this world.
    Can anyone ever forget ‘Chura Liya Hai Tumne’, ‘Chaand Mera Dil’, Maine Puchha Chaand Se’? Why did RD Burman use Rafi for some of his best scores? It’s no secret that he preferred Kishore Kumar. But, at the same time he knew K K’s limitations. Whereas he was of the opinion that Rafi had none, whatsoever. Did you know that Rafi won a National award for ‘kya Hua Tera Vaada’, a song composed by the junior Burman in the 70′s? He had also won the same award on one ealier occassion for the song ‘Babul Ki Duaen Leti Ja. By the way did Kishore ever win a national award? At the same time I also think that awards should not really be the parameter to measure talent. I had to mention it because somebody had mentioned that Kishore won seven Filmfare best male singer awards as compared to Rafi’s, six. There was no such award until 1959. Initially, there was no male or female category for this award. I am sure if they had this award in the 50′s, Rafi would have won several more. Kishore won his first Filmfare awrd in 1969. This does not mean that for the twenty odd years prior to this one he was a bad singer. I think he was a better singer in the 50′s and the 60′s then what he was in the 70′s and the 80′s. He won four of the Filfare awards after Rafi’s death.
    Why was the song ‘Nafrat Ki Duniya Ko Chhod Kar’ had to be given to Rafi? You probably know that Kishore could not do full justice to the song, even thogh it was picturised on rajesh Khanna. Laxmikant-Pyarelal duo won a Filmfare award in the decade you mentioned, for the movie SARGAM. All the male songs were rendered by Rafi. Madan Mohan gave the most popular score of his career for the movie LAILA MAJANU in 1975. Again it was Rafi who provided the vocals. For your information- Rafi was part of atleast 270 films from 1970 to 1980. If you equate this with Rafi being jobless, then my dear friend you are horribly out of touch with reality. He gave some of the best musical hits of the 70′s. Here are some of them.
    Tum Jo Mil Gaye Ho
    Badi Door Se Aaye hain
    Teri Galiyon Main Na Rakhenge Kadam
    Kitna Pyara Vaada hai in Matwali
    Ye Jo Chilman Hai
    Mera Man Tera Pyaasa
    Jab Bhi Ye Dil Udaas Hota Hai
    Teri Bindiya Re
    Chura Liya Hai Tumne Jo Dil Ko
    Unke Khyaal Aaye to Aate Chale Gaye
    Aadami Musafir Hai
    Dard-e-Dil, Dard-e-Jigar
    Chaand Mera Dil
    Nafrat Ki Duniya Ko Chhod Kar
    parda Hai Parda
    Chalo Re Doli Uthao Kahaar
    Mere Dost Kissa Ye Kya Ho Gaya
    Maine Poochha Chaand Se
    Aaj Mausam Bada Be-Imaan Hai bada
    Na Tu Zameen Ke Liye
    Dil Ne Pyar Kiya Hai Ik Bewafa Se
    Tu Is tarah Se Meri Zindagi Mein Shamil Hai
    Woh Woh Na Rahe Jin Ke Liye Hum The Bekraar
    The list goes on. If you look at the quality and the variety of songs, a golden collection like this could easily be described as the best for any singer. But not for Rafi. He gave his best in the 50′s and the 60′s. What an amazing singer, right! please see things in right perspective. Enjoy the works of all the them. We should all be grateful for what they have given us. Please don’t harbour any ill-will for those who left us long ago. Rafi was and will remain the best for eternity.

  482. 482
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Dhani Ram: I would prefer Kishore Kumar over Jagjit Singh for ANY kind of song – even a ghazal. Kishore’s voice was incomparably superior to Jagjit Singh’s for any comparison. KK >>> Jagjit Singh. Had Rafi Sahab been around – Jagjit Singh would have been jobless.

  483. 483
    Dhani Ram Says:

    I have been following the debate closely though I have entered it only recently.I am a diehard Rafi fan and believe that he is not only superior to all other singers but is light years ahead of them.A Hindi poet equated Tulsidas with the sun and Surdas with the moon but in comparison called all other poets mere glow worms.It is the same in the world of film singing–rafi is the sun while all others are glow worms.

    In the entire debate,some points have not been made though some like Partha Chatterjee,Binu Nair,Vikram and P. haldar have presented their viewpoints very knowledgeably and cogently.Some areas of singing have been neglected.Take,for example,alaap.No other singer does that except Rafi.Let us start with a very early song:Ramayya vasta vayya.The greatest beauty of the song is Aaaaaaaaa with which Rafi starts the song.In the so called Kishore era,Asha sang a song:dayya re dayya and the loveliest part pf the song again is Raf’s Aaaaaa though Rafi doesn’t sing anything else in the song

    Moreover,no other singer sings a few words before the main song begins.Before Tu Ganga ki mauj main Jamuna ka dhara,Rafi sings Akeli mat jaio Radhe Jamuna ke teer.One who can’t appreciate this great quality of Rafi actually has no ear for music.And Rafi repeats such things song after song.Look at this one:Asseer panjae aihde shabaab kar ke mujhe,kahaan gaya mera bachpan kharaab kar ke mujhe and after this the song begins.In two songs Mukesh(whom too I admire) also tries such a thing but fails in yeh mera diwanapan hai(though the song is heavenly) and Mujh ko yaaron muaf karna mai nashe main hoon(again the song itself is supernal).

    Only Rafi could create atmosphere with his singing.Do you remember his Parvar digaare alam tera hi hai sahaara.Rafi creates middle eastern flavour in the song with great skill.As also in his qawali Aankhon main tumhare jalwe hain hothon pe tumhare afsaane.Look at the superhuman control over the voice in a song like Jaag dile diwana rut aayee vassal yaar ki,a song of matchlless beauty and way beyond any other singer’s capacity.Recall the beauty of the bass in Mujhe le chalo aaj us gali
    main jahaan pehle pehle yeh dil larkhraya and Zulf lahrai teri aur meri taqdeer bani(sung way back in the movie Yeh raaste hain piar ke).

    Lata is considered to be great which she undoubtedly is but in comparison with Rafi she too falters.Let us look at some duets sung by them.One of the finest is:Tum hi tum ho mere jeevan main phool hi phool hain jaise chaman main.Rafi surpasses her in the duet by far.Her voice is sweet but flat in the song whrereas Rafi’s modulations are exquisite.The vibrations that he creates while articulating the words karaar,bahaar and dhadkanon make the song an out of the world experience.Rafi can infuse emotion in a song that no other singer can do.Let me cite some other duets.Jeet hi lenge baazi hum tum khel adhura chhoote naa piar ka bandhan janam ka bandhan toote naa,Tere bina soone nain hamaare,Laagi chhoote naa ab to sanam chahe jaaye jiya teri kasam, Teri dunia se door chale hoke majboor hamen yaad rakhna etc.His lighthearted songs sung with Asha/Shamshad in the fifties have no equals:Reshmi rumaal kurta jaali ka roop saha na jaye nakhre waali kaa;Le ke pehla pehla piar bhar ke aankhon me khumar jaadu nagri se aaya hai koi jaadugar;ik pardesi mera dil le gaya moti moti akhion me gham de gaya;uden jab jab zulfen teri kawarion ke dil machlen.

    Rafi happened to sing some duets with specialists in their areas and outdid them.He sang qawwalis with professional qawwals and beat them.The reason for Manna De’s great admiration for Rafi is his understanding of Rafi’s prowess in hard classical singing.Only Rafi has sung one hard classical duet with a highly rated professional classical singer(whose name I am unable to recall).The duet is:baat chalat nai chunri rang daari aiso hai natkhat banwari.Rafi outclasses the classical singer in his own art.It is just for this reason that two of the greatest Pakistani masters Mehdi Hassan and Ghulaam Ali placed on record their great admiration for Rafi.When Mehdi Hassan had meteoric rise in the firmament of ghazal singing in the sixties,he came to India and went especially to meet Rafi.In an interview on TV when an Indian interviewer praised Ghulam Ali he said,”You have had a great singer in Rafi.” Remember that both Rafi and Kishore were dead by then.These very great masters of music as many more pay tribute only to Rafi and don’t even mention Kishore.They regard Kishore just as a passable singer who wasn’t steeped in any musical tradition.Rafi was steeped in the great musical traditions of Punjab and some of his memorable songs are in Punjabi.

    I mention Mahendra Kapoor repeatedly in my posts because the film industry did injustice to him while unduly promoting Kishore and neglecting kapoor and Kapoor once lamented this fact.Mahendra had in his voice all that Kishore had and much more.In some posts masculinity in Kishore’s voice has been mentioned.God knows what it means in musical terms.What about masculinity in Mahendra’s voice.Have you heard his debut song:Chand chhupa aur tare doobe raat gazab ki aayee,hussan chala hai ishq se milne zulm ki badli chhayee sung for the film Sohni Mahiwaal.Tell of any song sung by Kishore at the pitch at which Mahendra sings it so masterfully?
    And look at this one by Mahendra:Mera piar woh hai ki mar kar bhi tum ko judaa apni baahon se hone na dega.Some masculinity there?Kapoor and Kishore paired with Mukesh in a chaalu type of song:Dosti hai kya bolo dosti hai kya.While Mukesh sings it in his usual avuncular style,the competition is between Kapoor and Kishore and Kapoor outsmarts Kishore.

    It is surprising that in male-female parallel songs it is always the male who outshines the female.I regard Lata to be a very great singer yet in the following songs she has played only a second fiddle to the superior male rendering.Look at these:Jaayen to jaayen kahaan,samjhe ga kaun yahaan dard bhare dil ki zubaan;Ai mere dil kahin aur chal.Talat far better than Lata.Mujhko is raat ki tanhai me awaaz na do,awaaz na do;Aa laut ke aaja mere meet tujhe mere geet bulaate hain.Mukesh pips Lata.Mere naina saawan bhaadon phir bhi mera man pyasa.Kishore sings it superbly while Lata is so so.Some connoisseurs say that Parveen Sultana does it better than Kishore in Mujhe tumse piar kitnaa yeh hum nahin jaante magar jee nahin sakte tumhare bina but I am not sure.Will someone like Vikram or Haldar throw some light on the limitations of female voice?

    Kishore has sung some sweet songs.My favourites are very old ones like maana janaab ne pukaara naheen;Chhotti si yeh dunia pehchaane raaste hain;aanchal main kya ji,yeh hawaa yeh nadi ka kinaara(the last two duets with Asha which I can hear endlessly).Kishore could occasionally be quite entertaining but that was all.Great he was not.For greatness we have to salute only Rafi like whom the Hindi film industry will never see aagain.

    Do the devotees of Kishore know that their idol had the ambition to pay a tribute to KL Sahgal by singing his songs.He could not fulfil his desire due to his untimely death.But it makes it clear what he himself regarded as great music.Are there any takers of Sahgal among Kishore’s fans.If so on what musical grounds?

  484. 484
    Anil Says:

    Vikram,

    Don’t think like a fool! The rafi-songs listed by you are ONLY good for listening for people LIKE YOU. So enjoy those songs and I will enjoy Kishore-Da songs here. I wish all those songs listed by you were sung by Kishore-Da!

  485. 485
    Anil Says:

    Dhani Ram,

    Many of the classical singers think that music is only THEIR world. Rafi was one of them amongst others. But it is kishore-da who proved it wrong! Music is just one form of expression of human feelings and NOBODY could do it better than Kishore-da.

    Dhani ram i would suggest you to listen to all the songs of kishore-da and if you have listened to the majority of the kishore-da songs then you wouldn’t have to write such a long message.

    Rafi is a very good singer but only SECOND to Kishore-da. Kishore-da is a BLESSED singer! God is great and that’s why he made Kishore-da.

  486. 486
    Gaurav Says:

    Hah @ Anil, you wish all those songs listed by Vikram were song by Kishoredam now if only he could.

    Kishoreda had an amazing voice – Agreed. Good ability to stay in tune – Agreed. Sing at high pitch without showing an iota of strain? Render alaaps? Throw out one word at the highest pitch, and the very next one in almost a whisper without even exhibiting the transition? Modulate his voice so that someone unknowingly listening 5 songs of his would believe these were all 5 different singers? That’s where Rafi outshines Kishore. Kishore was an amazing talent, much better than most of what the Hindi music industry has seen. But definitely, not the best.

    List me all the things about Kishoreda that Rafi didn’t posses. Don’t tell me bass (people have pointed before to Rafi songs with deep base) or emotions (if you think Rafi’s voice is not expressive of emotions, then I certainly don’t know what to say…)

  487. 487
    Sudip Says:

    Dhani Ram wrote:
    “It is surprising that in male-female parallel songs it is always the male who outshines the female.”

    -Largely true.. But mainly because Hindi films are very “Hero” centric. So the male version song tends to get popular. Take “O Sathi re” from Muqaddar Ka Sikandar.. Any male singing for Amitabh at his peak would have made the song popular.. Lets take cases where the female version was more popular:
    -”Tere Mere beech me kaisa hua bandhan” (Ek Duje ke liye). Lata’s version was more popular than SPB.
    -”Ram teri Ganga Maili” (Ram teri ..).. Again Lata outshone Suresh Wadhkar
    -” Ek do teen” (Tezaab). Alka’s version was more popular than Amit’s.
    -”Kuch na kaho” (1942 A Love story)-Kavita outshone Kumar Sanu.

    Interesting too, that all these happened in the post-Rafi era.

    PS: I prefer Lata’s version of “Mere Naina Saawan bhadon”. It has a haunting effect that Kishore’s version lacked. And let’s not talk of “Hamen tumse pyar kitna”.. Kishore sang a simpler version of the song which was not even comparable.

  488. 488
    vicky Says:

    dhaniram,

    i agree with u tht the male voice always sounds better than their female counterpart in parallel songs but i dont agree with sudip tht this is bcoz of hindi films being more ‘hero centric’ the main difference wch i feel is the ability of the male voice to give more expressions in a given song. for me there r only 2 gurus whn it comes to expressions one is Rafisaab the other being kk. no other singer comes close to them in expressions

    coming back to the point no sooner u listen to a male voice u know wht the song is i mean emotional,sad.happy etc wch is not true with the female voice may be coz of its ‘fraility’. and forget abt the male stalwarts like rafisaab,kk,manna etc even small time singers sing it better(sometimes) than lata n all the best example is the song-’tujhse naraaz nahi zindagi’ is sung by a singer(whose name i dont recall) n the other version of the song is sung by lata n we all know wch version is better just show cases the difference between the two voices..!!

  489. 489
    Praveen Says:

    Comparing KK with Rafi in cricketing terms is like comparing Sachin to Rahul. Both are great players but its fun to watch Sachin and sometimes boring to watch Rahul

    When you hear Rafi songs it looks very practiced, lots of training, not very natural and very technically perfect (like Rahul). Yes Rafi has sung many memorable songs, but many sound similar. except when he sang for Shammi, where his singing style changed and there was some humour and fun in his songs.

    But when you hear KK songs its like watching Sachin. The power in his voice is just magic. All KK songs are worth listening million times and the vocal quality in all his songs is just like a genius singing. The high, mid and low range in KK’s songs are just pure talent. KK has improved many songs with his variations, yoodling. KK also has a unique voice as he has both nasal and base voice together which no other singer had. He also brings in a charm in all his songs and his modulations, breath control is of a sheer genius who has never been trained. Imagine if he was trained.

    But we needed both these gems (Rafi and KK) who have left behind some of the best Indian songs which will last million years or forever

    There have been many clones of Rafi and KK but no one can sing like them

    In summary both the singers are great and we must respect their individual styles of singing and I would rather listen to their songs and not waste my time debating who is a better singer.

  490. 490
    Ganesh Says:

    IF 1000 Kishore Kumars died at a time inspite of this there will no gathering like Rafi Saab’s funeral

  491. 491
    malik. ibrahim Says:

    actualy india has great singers , in my opinion they were the best in the world… iam afan of mohd rafi ..kishor kumar ..mukesh..lata..asha..udit narayan.. kumar sanu..nusrat ali khan.. ect,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but when you come for comparison i think rafi is the best….

    iam a uae citizen but ilove hindi songs…..

  492. 492
    binu nair Says:

    Rafi saab is a perfect artist and a perfect human being….. no
    parallels…..The world loves him and respects him.

    Kishore Saab is a very great multifaceted artist of the rarest
    kind..

    Very early Rafi saab said good-bye to acting and concentrated
    on his ‘godly’ voice..

    Kishore da asked Rafi saab to sing in his own home films
    and as a token took Rs.one for the song. See the great qualities
    of these two great men..
    More, Rafi saab playbacked for Kishore da for nine songs….
    One more feather in the ‘hats’ of these great men….

    Kishore da loved Rafi saab and we all love Kishore saab..

    Jai Kishore, Jai Rafi……

    Binu Nair.. The Rafi Foundation…. Mumbai….

  493. 493
    SUNNYBAL Says:

    HI GUYS, I JUST FOUND THIS WEB SITE A WHILE AGO AND IT SEEMS VERY INTERESTING AND FUNNY AND I ENJOYED A LOT AFTER READING MOST ARTICLES.
    I DO LOVE BOTH KISHOREDA AND RAFI SAHABS BEAUTIFUL SONGS AND BOTH WERE UNIQUE.

    HONESTLY, I PERSONALLY PREFER KISHOREDAS SINGING STYLE WHICH IS TOTALLY MIND BLOWING. LATAJI HAS MENTIONED IN HER INTERVIEW THAT KISHOREDA HAS RECORDED FEW MOVIE DUETS ALL BY HIMSELF. HE SANG MALE AND FEMALE PART BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY. SHE SAID NO ONE HAS EVER DONE THAT. ABOUT HIS THROUGHTAL SINGING, I MEAN SOUDING (UDLE UDLE) IN ZINDAGI EK SAFAR HAI SUHANA SONG HAS SHOOK THE ENTIRE WORLD. HES SINGING WAS TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM OTHER SINGERS THATS WHY HE IS COUNTED AS ONE AND ONLY.

    THINK ABOUT IT THAT HE NEVER LEARNED MUSIC BUT HE USED HIS NATURAL TALENT NOT ONLY IN SINGING BUT IN DIRECTING, PRODUCING, ACTING, SO MANY WHICH CANNOT BE EXPRESSED IN WORDS. ( MY QUESTION IS WHAT ABOUT HE REALLY HAD TAKEN MUSIC LESSONS AND WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN HIS LEVEL OF EXCELLENCY?) NO ONE WOULD HAVE EVER COME CLOSE TO HIS KNOWLEDGE AND PERFORMANCE. WITHOUT MUSIC KNOWLEDGE HE SHOWED HIS ART ANDTALENT TO ENTIRE WORLD AND BECAME THE GREATEST. LATA JI SAID NO ONE WILL EVER BECOME ANOTHER KISHOREDA. HE IS THE KING OF MELODY OF ALL.

    HOWEVER I DO RESPECT ALL SINGERS AND OF COURSE EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN WAY OF SINGING AND EVERY ONE IS UNIQUE. YES RAFI SAHABS SONGS ARE ALSO IN EVERYONES HEART AND HIS EVER GREEN SONGS MAKE ME ROCK.

  494. 494
    Vinod Says:

    Hi everybody,

    I am sad by the way u people have dragged such immortal names into such a silly debate. Real fans of real music and good voice will never stoop to such levels. They themselves were greta fans of each other. So what is the issue. There was only one rafi and one kishore. there never will be another one.so enjoy their legacies they left behind.

  495. 495
    SHEKHAR Says:

    YAAR YEH KYA HO RAHA HAI ?

    Why debate who is good/better/bestest! Both/most of the singers of yore were class apart.

    My BIGGEST problem is that the STUPIDEST SHOW on the whole wide world…..K for Kishore….by Sony (Who else, Sony is one TV channel who gives us 3rd rate programming)……

    ALL the singers in this show are WORSE than bathroom singers…..NONE of them have knowledge of SUUR / TAAL….HOW could SONY choose these singers beats me….not difficult I guess…if you ask some stupid manager with clerical metality…..that he is “given importance” of choosing singers….without knowing M of Music…..such 3rd Rate singing!!! Even Fame Gurukul (ALSO by Sony) had better singers…..

    And, the judges!!!
    - I thouhgt Bappi Lahiri KNEW music….this guy says “Bahut Achcha”
    to even the WORST of the worst singers.
    - Amit Kumar….altough a CLASS singer…. he cannot understand SUR.
    - Sudesh Bhosale….should stick to mimicry…he DOES NOT know singing.

    I feel sad that a legend like Kishoreda’s name is being exploited by these idiots by allowing NON-SINGERS to sing in this show….and the JUDGES PRAISING these stupid singers.

  496. 496
    Aheli Says:

    First what i wanna say is we should respect our elders…. We should say Kishore Da, Rafi sahab, “Udit Ji, Sonu Ji”

    Rafi sahab is classically very trained and Kishore da is more melodioes. so in there gharana’s they are the BEST… We cannot compare between them who is better or who is not… and from our individual liking we can say that i like kishore kumar more or i like md. rafi more… from my point of view i like Kishore Kumar more than Md. Rafi, that doesnt mean that Kishore Da is better than Rafi sahab or Rafi sahab is better than Kishore da.

    And… i am a very very very big fan of Udit Narayan, and i didnt hear that he said he falls in Rafi’s gharana… his type of singing is like Kishore Kumar and Sonu Nigam’s type of singing is like Md. Rafi. So, here also we cannot judge that who is better than who…. I like Udit Narayan better than Sonu Nigam that’s a fact…. But some songs of Sonu Nigam has made me “Deewana”… but all the song of Udit Narayan has made me “Deewana”…

    Udit Narayan has a God gifted voice like Kishore Kumar…. And, Sonu Nigam has ‘reeyaased’ his voice and made it good… Both square’s (Kishore Da & Udit Ji + Rafi Sahab & Sonu Ji) are extra ordinary…
    KishoreDa and Rafi Sahab were A+ at there times and Udit Ji and Sonu Ji are A+ now…. No one for eg. Shaan, Sanu, Abhijeet, K.K., Babul Shupriyo, Vinod Rathod, Kunal Ganjawala, Atif, etc etc, can never take there places how lot they try…

    One more i want to say about Udit Narayan music directors should give him more chance than Shaan and lot because he is much much more better than them. Udit Ji and Sonu Ji should get more chance than all. Others should get a chance but not more than them… One example:- in Deewangi Deewangi song from Om Shanti Om Udit Ji sang one two to three lines(approx.) he should get more chance. And in the film when his portions were coming all the screaming’s of the girls were given to hide his voice. Why? and in the duet’s only we could here Shaan’s voice. Why? i want an answer from all of you…

  497. 497
    Aheli Says:

    aftr my comment i think every one should stop fighting

  498. 498
    binu nair Says:

    Aheli jii…..

    Who is more melodious? Kishore da or Rafi saaheb…

    Pls. do not rust to answers but……….

    Pls. do compare 50 songs of Rafi saab from the fifties, sixties
    and the seventies…. and do the same exercise with Kishor da’s
    numbers….

    If u have ears that are partial to any one singer then call a
    neutral music lover and judge the songs…..

    Please inform me the results…

    binu nair… binus2000@hotmail.com

  499. 499
    Vikram Says:

    Aheli Ji,
    Rafi was Rafi because of his melodious voice. You totally got this one wrong my friend. As far as melody, versatility and quality is concerned, Rafi and Lata definitely belong to the same group. Yes, kishore had talent. Tons of it. I wouid put Kishore and Asha in one group.
    And also,Sonu Nigam is a far better singer then Udit Narayan. At present there is nobody in playback singing who can match him. He has never shied away from experimenting with his vocal cords . He, like Rafi can sing anything. We are all entitled to our beliefs, but they are not always true. He is a worthy successor to carry on the legacy of the best plaback singer that we ever had.

  500. 500
    Sumit Kumar Says:

    Kishore Kumar is the most versatile of all singers. I am singing for all a Kishore Kumar & ; Mohd. Rafi Songs.

    Hamari Duniya Mein Hain Teen Heere
    Kishore, Mukesh ; Rafi.

  501. 501
    Sumit Kumar Dawar Says:

    Hame Aur Jeene Ki Aarzoo Na Hoti
    Agar Kishore Na Hote.

  502. 502
    Sudip Says:

    Sumit Kumar:
    Good that you respect your dad..How are your mom (Leena Chandravarkar) and brother Smit Kumar doing?

  503. 503
    CHANDRASHEKHAR kULKARNI Says:

    Sony TV now have ONE MORE program to learn from.
    Guys, just learnt about one MORE program on Star TV. They have also started a musical program and that also with some kids. I hear their program is also SUPERB!!! So now Sony is in deep trouble. They are STUCK with their substandard singers (Yaar woh Suhas Sawant ki awaaz suni kya ? You must hear to believe it!!!). I keep repeating – serves them right. Zara idhar ghaur kijiye huzzuuur….phir uparwale gaaney suniye……
    THEN you decide why should SONY force us to ask our cable guy to STOP telecasting Sony….:
    http://starvoiceofindiachhoteustaad.blogspot.com/2008/01/chhote-ustad-january-4-th-videos-star.html

  504. 504
    Vikram Says:

    Shekhar, I completely agree with your thoughts on the TV show “K for Kishore”. This is the worst form of tribute to a singer of Kishore’s class. And the judges on the show! Less said the better. Bhappi Lahri should take a break from judging any contest for that matter. Sudesh Bhonsle is the kind of guy who is good for nothing. He thinks mimicking Big B’s voice is the only form of singing left. I was expecting better from Amit Kumar. I think he is an original singer, and understands the nuances of music. The anchoring of the show is third rate. For the sake of KK, Amit should make Sony television and others associated with the show to understand the importance of the show and see reason.

  505. 505
    Dhani Ram Says:

    The debate must go on.It is a question of the ascertainment of refined tastes and their ascendancy.When on 31st December my ears were assailed till well after mid-night by noise called music by many these days played on DJs,I reased the value of arguing for good music.Good music has a soothing effect.It transports you to another world.After listening to it you feel relaxed and don’t have a headache.

    I have never been able to like Kishore Kumar’s style of singing
    nor Pancham Da’s compositions.Hear Pancham’s songs sung by himself(there is a horrendous one sung in a rasping voice whose wording I have never been able to grasp) and compare them to his father’s.Sun mere bandhu re.Which one is music? Pancham’s cacophany or his father’s soulful melody?

    Times Today telecast a tribute to Pancham today and the anchor after mentioning several of Pancham’s compositions with approval remarked that his crowning achievemment was Gol maal hai,bhai sab gol maal hai.Wah! If that is music,one should keep light years away from it for one’s own health.

    Some participants have commented adversely on Sony TV’s tribute to KK by his camp followers.Does any Indian TV channel have any sense of music?Where is music on TV?It is all worthless trash,including the serials.For comparison,watch Andhera Ujjala, a serial produced by PTV long time back.I don’t know of anyone who has seen that serial and who doesn’t believe it be better than all Indian soap operas and even Bollywood films.

    One thing that I have noticed in the course of this debate is that the fans of Kihore make assertions only without substantiating them.One of the stock assertins repeated by many is that Kishore had a natural talent while Rafi had training and therefore Kishore was superior.What nonsense! Rafi had huge natural talent which he had refined through tremendous training.Rafi had a passion for music to which he was devoted wholeheartedly and singlemindedly.It was not so with Kishore.Rafi’s forte was singing; Kishore’s was showmanship which took several forms none of which he could master.

    And let us not forget another great Bengali! Hemant Kumar.Listen to one song of Kishore and then of Hemant.Repeat it with 50 songs of either of them.If at the end,you still prefer Kishore,you certainly need some training in music.

  506. 506
    Ashwin Patel Says:

    Dhani Ramji,
    Singers, who need training and who learn on the earth are just practicing singers, but, remember, Kishoreda were trained in heaven, as it is evident in his voice. Kishoreda is a great gift from our creator.
    Without Kishoreda singing, I do not imagine any superiority of Bollywood.
    I would say Rafi Saheb and Mukeshji were good singers also, but, but Kishoreda were just superb. In singing, we are looking here the sweetness of the voice. Kishoreda’s voice is sweeter than any other man made sweet. Man made sweet can go sour the next day, but Kishoreda’s voice never went sour. Rafi saheb were just yelling without much sweetness of the voice and Rafi saheb never matched the voice to that of Actor’s. Rafi Saheb also have sung for less actor whereas Kishoreda have sung for many actors matching their natural voice.
    Don’t you think, the singer who needs training, practices more and sings normal, where as the singer who does not training and practice and sings superb, is the greatest singer. Think about this logic. I think you are thinking up-side-down.
    Kishoreda’s throat was perfectly tuned by our creator, who did not need any training and/or practice.

  507. 507
    Sudip Says:

    Ashwin:
    “Rafi saheb were just yelling without much sweetness of the voice and Rafi saheb never matched the voice to that of Actor’s. Rafi Saheb also have sung for less actor whereas Kishoreda have sung for many actors matching their natural voice”..

    -Since you are the first one to mention this (as distant from truth as Kumble is a bigger spinner of ball than Shane Warne), I recommend you have your head checked. Rafi Saab’s main strength was the mithas (sweetness of voice).

    And your writing itself shows your contradictions. How can someone who yell without sweetness be a “good singer”. Make up your mind and then write..I am sure you have not heard 1/10th of the songs than any knowledgeable music follower has..

  508. 508
    Ashwin Patel Says:

    Sudip:
    I think my head is excellent without any doubts.
    Do not compare singing with any other skills that need to be learned after we are born.
    Any Doctor, Engineer or the Cricketer needs to be trained and practiced after the person is born. More the practice and training they have better they are!
    Singers are born! they come to this earth with their good throat, they don’t need to be trained or practiced. They show their talent without a doubt. Think, we all like to be a singer but we can’t.

    Kishore Kumar was just superb, superb singer. All the stars are shining today and have much success because the great voice of Kishoreda!

    If you don’t believe me in this context. Just ask our superstars of today and yesteryears. Rajesh Khannaji, once said, when Kishore Kumar
    sung a song for him, It is like, I am singing that song myself. King Khan also gave great tribute to great Kishoreda in public!

    I think, you need to interpret my writing again carefully and you are writing yourself in your comment, “How can someone who yell without sweetness be a “good singer”, Yes, one cannot be a!

  509. 509
    Sudip Says:

    “If you don’t believe me in this context. Just ask our superstars of today and yesteryears. Rajesh Khannaji, once said, when Kishore Kumar
    sung a song for him, It is like, I am singing that song myself. King Khan also gave great tribute to great Kishoreda in public!”

    –I do believe in you.. I can also add Dev Anand and others to your list who loved Kishore’s voice. Similarly there are tons such as Dilip Kumar, Shammi, Rajendra Kumar, Joy Mukherjee who thought Rafi was their voice.. that includes B grade film personalities like Johnie Walker.. Who remembers the two unknown faces in Dosti or the lean hero in Dulari.. All that they remember is Rafi’s songs. The song “Suhani Raat Dhal chuki” was recorded in 1949. It has survived 60 years while the movie or the hero has sunk into oblivion.

    But all these are anecdotal observations..None of these conclusively proves one is better than the other. The only proof is what we think and at times what experts say.. And let me tell you musical “experts” do not include King Khan (whose knowledge of music may be a tad better than my 9 year old son’s).

    To me Kishore was a great entertainer. He brought a freshness to the industry like no one before. No one before sang with a full-throated voice (something which my knowledgeable co-poster P Halder commented on). The golden voice with the energetic rendition made old styles redundant. So Talat, Saigal, Hemant disappeared from the scene in the new era heralded by the great Kishore Kumar. In other words, Kishore’s voice and style was unique-that makes him great.

    Rafi, on the other hand was unique in that he was not unique.. Sounds paradoxical? Let me explain. He did not make Talat or Hemant redundant. He was Talat, Saigal, Hemant, Kishore and Mukesh combined into one…He could be Talat if need be, and be Kishore if need be..In “Jaane Kya dhoondti” Rafi was Talat personified, in “Khilona Jankar” he was Mukesh, in “Barbad-e-mohabbat” he was Bhupinder, in “Gar tum bhoola na donge” he was Kishore, in “Kain ek masoom nazuk si ladki” he was Hariharan. No one in history had this range, which is also “God gifted” (Since you believe in God which I don’t).

    Kishore had a single, unique style which was great..But when it comes to choosing the best singer it has to be Rafi. Even your “superstars of today and yesteryears” voted for Rafi when it came to choosing one. If you do not believe in that look at the various polls such as the Outlook magazine poll and go through the voters list.

  510. 510
    Sudip Says:

    Making corrections and adding since this site does not have “Preview” feature
    ———————————————————————————–
    “If you don’t believe me in this context. Just ask our superstars of today and yesteryears. Rajesh Khannaji, once said, when Kishore Kumar
    sung a song for him, It is like, I am singing that song myself. King Khan also gave great tribute to great Kishoreda in public!”
    –I do believe in you.. I can also add Dev Anand and others to your list who loved Kishore’s voice. Similarly there are tons such as Dilip Kumar, Shammi, Rajendra Kumar, Joy Mukherjee who thought Rafi was their voice.. that includes B grade film personalities like Johnie Walker.. Who remembers the two unknown faces in Dosti or the lean hero in Dulari.. All that they remember is Rafi’s songs. The song “Suhani Raat Dhal chuki” was recorded in 1949. It has survived 60 years while the movie or the hero has sunk into oblivion.

    But all these are anecdotal observations..None of these conclusively proves one is better than the other. The only proof is what we “feel” and at times backed by what experts say.. And let me tell you musical “experts” do not include King Khan (whose knowledge of music may be a tad better than my 9 year old son’s). That way Punjabi kudiya Priyanka Chopra’s favorite singer is Rafi (does it count at all?)

    To me Kishore was a great entertainer. He brought a freshness to the industry like no one before. No one before sang with a full-throated voice (something which my knowledgeable co-poster P Halder commented on). The golden voice with the energetic rendition made old styles redundant and outdated. So Talat, Saigal, Hemant disappeared from the scene in the new era heralded by the great Kishore Kumar. This is also the reason why Kishore’s fans hardly listen to Talat, Mahendra K, Subir Sen, Pankaj Mullick..To them the GOD’s style was all that mattered. In other words, Kishore’s voice and style was unique-that makes him great.

    Rafi, on the other hand was unique in that he was not unique.. Sounds paradoxical? Let me explain. He did not make Talat or Hemant’s style redundant. He was Talat, Saigal, Hemant, Kishore and Mukesh combined into one…He could be Talat if need be, and be Kishore if need be..In “Jaane Kya dhoondti” Rafi was Talat personified, in “Khilona Jankar” he was Mukesh, in “Barbad-e-mohabbat” he was Bhupinder, in “Gar tum bhoola na donge” he was Kishore, in “Kain ek masoom nazuk si ladki” he was Hariharan, in “janewalo ka gham” he was Pankaj Udhas. No one in history had this range, which is also “God gifted” (Since you believe in God which I don’t).

    Kishore had a single, unique style which was great..But when it comes to choosing the best singer it has to be Rafi. Even your “superstars of today and yesteryears” voted for Rafi when it came to choosing one. If you do not believe in that look at the various polls such as the Outlook magazine poll and go through the participants list.

  511. 511
    Vikram Says:

    Aswin,
    Can you dispute the fact that Everest is the highest mountain in the world?There definitely is some confusion about the second higest. Rafi is the Everest of singing. Mukesh, manna Dey and Kishore are the competitors for the second place. I will give the benefit of doubt to Kishore Kumar, for the fact that his voice had more variations compared to the other two. You just can not compare Rafi with anybody. In cricketing terms Sachin Tendulkar is great. But is he as great as Don Bradman? Definitely not. Rafi was divine. He could mould his voice at will to suite any actor. It’s a fact. Like it or not. He was declared the most popular singer of the millenium in a poll conducted by a leading magazine.
    Somebody had mentioned in one of the posts that Kishore was the voice of the young actors. Sheer nonsense! Where in the hell that came from? Rafi was the voice of young Dilip Kumar. He was the voice of young Dev Anand. He sang some of the best songs for Dev. Dev Anand owes a lot to rafi Sahab for what he is today. Shashi Kapoor, Dharmenda, Jeetendra, Bishwajeet, Rajender Kumar, Joy Mukherjee were the young faces of the 60′s. It was Rafi who did the vocals for them. Kishore Kumar became the voice of Dev Anand when he grew older and started producing those horrible movies. Brring a few, the music of most of them was horrendous. Dharmendra, Shashi Kapoor and Jeetendra were not growing any younger when music directors started using Kishore Kumar for them during the 70′s.
    In the late 70′s Rafi became the voice of the youthful Rishi Kapoor, truly the only musically successful actor of those times. He also sang for Vinod Khanna who was the young fresh face in the 70′s. He did playback for some other not very well known young actors like Vijay Arora and Anil Dhawan. Rafi sang for more actors than anybody else. He provided vocals to playback for a young Kishore Kumar. He did that eleven times. Now that’s what I call greatness and versatility. His voice was used on Amitabh a lot of times and also occasionally on Rajesh Khanna.
    The dialogue from the movie “Waqt” that ” those who live in glass houses should not throw stones at others”, is appropriate for these kind of people who want to malign Rafi at any cost. No matter how much these guys try, they will never succeed in their sinister designs.

  512. 512
    Ashwin Patel Says:

    Sudip and Vikram,
    We are talking here about the TIMES. Kishoreda wasn’t there when Rafi saheb were singing for our actors. When Kishoreda came, singing his style, Rafi Saheb were tarnished a little. However, Kishoreda has more modulation in his voice than Rafi Saheb. When Kishoreda’s voice is present in the theater, the atomsphere inside the theater becomes just superb, splendid, terrific, fabulous, fantastic, marvelous and wonderful.
    After reading your comments, I would like to say:
    Yeah sirf yehi baat hai, Pasand Apni Apni, Khayal Apna Apna.

  513. 513
    Manish Kumar Says:

    I agree with Ashwin. Kishore Kumar masterfully blended his modulated voice to suit Dilip Kumar in “Salaa Main To Sahab Bangaya”. I thought it was Dilip Kumar singing. I was surprised to hear that SD Burman was the MD of that song.

  514. 514
    Sudip Says:

    Ashwin wrote:
    “We are talking here about the TIMES. Kishoreda wasn’t there when Rafi saheb were singing for our actors. When Kishoreda came, singing his style, Rafi Saheb were tarnished a little”

    -That’s natural. I was not born in the 60′s. But if I were I would be tired of Rafi’s voice as well. No one likes to hear the same voice, movie after movie, year after year.
    -Similarly public got tired of Kishore wanted fresh voices in the mid 80s. That’s why we saw Amit, SPB and even 3rd grade singers like Aziz and Shabbir Kumar.
    -Sanu had monopoly between 1990-96..People got tired of Sanu in 1996 and that’s why Udit appeared from reappeared after his QSQT days.
    -Udit enjoyed monopoly between 96 and 2001. Public replaced him with Sonu Nigam.
    -Sonu had a short life at the peak. Now we have Ganjawala, Kailash Kher, etc.

    FYI…Kishore was surely there when Rafi was singing but no one other than SDB appreciated his talent. Salil Chowdhury even had Hemant Kumar sing for KK in Naukri because he thought he was not good enough. Lot of MDs though Kishore was offbeat in the 50s and hence he was thrown into the sidelines.

    I can never visualize Kishore Kumar singing Talat’s “Tasveer banata hoon” in Baradari. He simply does not have that mellow…Talat created a magic of a different kind that Kishore fans do not care about…They are only obsessed with one dimension of the voice- the open-throated one where the “atomsphere inside the theater becomes just superb….”.. I can easily visualize Rafi singing that song.. Though I think Talat reached a different level in that song..

  515. 515
    Sudip Says:

    Ashwin:
    “Kishoreda has more modulation in his voice than Rafi Saheb”

    -WHAT??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    Surely your definition of modulation is different from what musicians understand as modulation. According to dictionary mudulation is ” Music. transition from one key to another.”

    Asha Bhosle to A R Rahman talked of Rafi’s ability to switch keys easily and instantly. Forget Kishore..Mehdi Hasan to Manna De did not have this ability..

    I am naming 3 songs of Rafi..
    “Jawaaniyan yeh mast”
    “Pukarta Chala hoon main”
    “Tasveer tere dil mein”

    Name ONE song of Kishore that has the same level of modulation. If you need help you can use a Frequency analyzer to help you.. I can give you some hint-the closest that comes to those songs is “Khilte hai gul yahan”.

  516. 516
    Probal Das Says:

    Rafi lacks modulation ? You guys lack common sense

  517. 517
    Ashwin Patel Says:

    This is to Sudip:
    MODULATION applies to any sound generated in space, it doesn’t matter, whether it is from a musical instrument or from a person singing.
    You can make many definition of MODULATION depending upon our context. In a plain words, MODULATION means keeping the sound constant in its quality.
    As Bhappida were saying in one of the “K for Kishore” show, that Kishoreda were keeping the voice in same quality whether it is in a low notes or high notes.
    Also, as Amitji were saying to one of the singer in “K for Kishore” show that
    your MODULATION was good.
    So, don’t try to teach anything to anybody, just write comments that applies to the show. I know both English and Science very well.

  518. 518
    Sudip Says:

    Ashwin:
    As far as music is concerned MODULATION has only one meaning (unless Bappi’da questions etymology. he is surely fatter than the dictionary).. And you are correct: “In a plain words, MODULATION means keeping the sound constant in its quality.” You missed one small part. Let me fill that part in parentheses :

    In a plain words, MODULATION means keeping the sound constant in its quality (within the same antara of a song). And Kishore has hardly sung any song with lots of back-to-back ups and downs within an antara..And for your information Bappi’da has hardly composed any..

    Manna De (who understands music a little more than your Bappi’da), once said “Kishore khub-i baro gayak. Kintu o kothin gaan gailo kobey?” (Translated from Bengali: Kishore is a very good singer. But when did he ever sing difficult songs? ).

    You know what, when you talk about the TIMES and Bappi’da, I see no point arguing because you have different sensibilities and tastes than mine. Just as it is pointless to talk about Satyajit Ray, Fellini, de Sica and Kurosawa to someone who follows Manmohan Desai..

    Rafi’s beauty was that he unified the diverse worlds of Kishore and Talat or of Mehdi Hasaan and Udit Narayan. Kishore created a rift in that world-either follow this way or that way..His gayaki was made for the TIMES it did not transcend diverse eras.

    And mind you, the trend you are talking of was not Kishore’s creation..It was that the West started transferring garbage to Bollywood via Pancham and Bappi’da and Kishore’s voice suited those. Another coincidence was the emergence of deep voiced heroes like Amitabh. I am sure Kishore left a lot of influence behind-little wonder we heard “Main to bhelpuri kha raha tha” or “Mera pant bhi sexy” after his death (Now don’t tell me that’s in keeping with the TIMES and sound marvelous).

    Rafi, to be fair, sang a lot of garbage too (in fact, possibly more than Kishore). But he was ALSO singing Thumris, Gazals, Qawaalis, light classical and heavy songs alongside.

  519. 519
    Vikram Says:

    Ashwin, Please do not mention Bhappi Lahri to verify something. What does he know about music? He probably is the worst ever music director. Laxmikant-Pyarelal have always been of the opinion that when it comes to singing there is nobody bigger than Rafi. At the same time they never despised Kishore kumar. In fact, they used him for some of their great compositions. That’s what Rafi fans are like. Now compare this with R D Burman. He only used Rafi when he had no other option. He made Kishore sing songs that should have been given to Rafi. It was Rafi who brought RD into the big league with Teesri Manzil and Chhote Nawab. This is another example of an over zealous kishore fan. Later on although he went back to Rafi as he thought Kishore will not be able to do justice to his difficult to grasp compositions. I will not dispute the fact that RD composed some great scores for Kishore Kumar. We respect the best, but at the same time we don’t hate the second best. This is where we differ from Kishore fans. In a bid to prove their point they can go to any point to malign Rafi. Please show some respect to the singer whom majority of the people think to be the best ever.
    I like Kishore Kumar a lot. Some of his songs are a real joy. They are as good as Rafi’s best songs, if not better. But, that’s about it. Rafi’s voice modulations and variations were simply divine. Rafi’s repertoire is just unbelievable. In terms of variety and quality that he provided over a span of thirty years is far beyond the reach of Kishore Kumar, or for that matter any other singer. Manna Dey, Mukesh and Mahender Kapoor also had their time in the sun. Their best work is also as good as the best of Kishore’s or Rafi’s. We should appreciate their contribution to our film industry without holding anything against them. When you have so many stalwarts in one field, someone is bound to be better than the rest.

  520. 520
    Anmolaryan Dogra Says:

    I have lately read the entire debate on this site. More than 500 posts have failed to clinch the issue either way. Rafi fans have remained Rafi fans and Kishore fans have remained Kishore fans. Neither side has succeeded in converting anybody from the other side. Still it has not been a futile debate. Leaving aside some catankerous posts, the debate has been conducted in an able, intelligent and skillful manner. It has highlighted many of the finer aspects of Hindi film music and is a learning exprience for music lovers. I agree with Dhani Ram Ji that the debate should go on. But I would suggest that it should not be limited to just 2 singers. It should be more inclusive as some other stars like Mukesh, Talat, Hemant Kumar, Mahender Kapoor, Manna Dey etc. also shown on the musical fermament. Alongwith Rafi & Kishore, Mukesh diserves equal honours. Starting way back in the late 1940s, he gloriously all kinds of vicissitudes to sing his great swan song “Kabhi Khabhi mere dil mein khyal aata hai”.

    Besides, most importantly, why should we discuss the singer and not the song. If I can enjoy Rafi’s “Choudwin ka chand ho”, why can’t I enjoy Kishore’s “Zindgi ek safar hai suhana” as well as Mukesh’s ” Suhana Safar aur ye mausam hasin”? They are all wonderful songs and deserve our hearing. Why should we deprive ourselves of the bliss of listening to a song because it has been sung by A and not B? Could just one singer have sung all the songs in all the films produced during the last 60 years? We should be grateful that we had a galaxy of good singers who have provided us rich variety to suit our different moods and tastes. Rafi, Mukesh and Kishore have all gone. They are no longer alive. Our venom against any of them makes no difference to them now. If we denigrate any of these colossuses of film music, we show only our own ingratitude, meanness and poverty of tastes and imagination. Let us celebrate all the great singers and their great songs and not throw mud at them.

  521. 521
    Ashwin Patel Says:

    Oh, Thanks Sudip and Vikaram for coming to the positive roles.
    Now you both are heroes.
    Yes, I do agree with both of you. Each of our great singers have some unique qualities of their own, which have created great effects on our Bollywood’s success, which have now big name in the world.
    I am the man who respects even a smallest artist.
    Rafi Saheb, Mukeshji and Kishoreda are immortal for ever in our lives.
    Rafi Saheb and Mukeshji were great sigers also.
    However, I mostly listen the songs of Kishoreda daily in the car that keeps me going on a daily basis. In fact, I drive car better when the Kishoreda’s song is being played.
    Like:
    (1) Rook Jana Nahin Tu kahi Haar ke
    (2) Jeevan mein tu darna nahin
    (3) Phoolon Ke Dhere Hai
    (4) Jab bhi koi kangana bole
    (5) Har koi chahata hai ek Mutthi
    (6) Nadiya se Dariya
    (7) Diye Jalte Hai
    (8) Aane wala pal Jaane wala hai
    (9) Jo Tum Hansonge to Duniya Hasange
    (10) Jaa Mujhe na aab yaad aa
    (11) Sama hai suhana suhana
    (12) Pyar ko chahiye kya ek nazar ek nazar

    These are just few as an example. I will be listening the songs of Kishoreda until the last day of my life. But, Rafi Saheb and Mukeshji will be in my heart also. At least good, Lataji and Ashaji are still with us.

    You know, many times we do get bored in life for no reason, but, when Kishoreda is with me, I never get bored even for a moment, that is the type of good effect he has created on me.

    I appreciate your nice comments.

  522. 522
    Vikram Says:

    Ashwin, I agree with you that ultimately it boils down to individual tastes. My only grudge against some of Kishore fans was their foul language directed at Mohd. rafi. Some of them had also mentioned religion. This is despicable. I would request all to keep this discussion to the level of humanity.

  523. 523
    Vip Says:

    Listen to rafi song ” Hai duniya ooski zamana oosika” ..Rafi just can;t go wrong…

  524. 524
    Vip Says:

    Sudip, I have gone through this whole chain today and I am impressed by your knowledge about music. Great analysis.. keep it up…

    BTW, here are some songs where Rafi excelled as singer.
    1> Chal ud ja re panchhi
    2> Jawaniyan yeh mast mast
    3> Aapke hassen rukh
    4> Zindabad
    5> Yeh jo chilman hai (This one is on Rajesh Khanna – supoosed to be uusing KK all the time)
    6> Kar chale hum fida
    7> Duniya na bhaye mohe
    8> Hui Sham unka khyaal (That stupid kumar “naku” sanu tried this one in one of the concerts in his nasal style and failed miserably)
    I can go on …. there are so many.. I thank Rafi for what he has given to me.

  525. 525
    Dhani Ram Says:

    I appreciate what Anmolaryan Dogra has written.Let us focus on the song and not the singer.A bad song sung by Rafi is a bad song just as a bad song sung by Kishore is a bad song.If we include all the singers in our debate we shall make it more comprehensive and rich.Men like Sudip and Vikram have amazing knowledge of music.We would like to hear from them about merits of different singers and their best renditions.Now though I believe that Rafi was the most versatile singer(incidently Naushad Sahib also said this and who could be a greater judge of the quality of a musical voice than Naushad) yet there are scores and scores of songs of Mukesh which are surpaasingly beautiful.Only Mukesh could have sung Saranga teri yaad mein,a difficult song sung to perfection.Rafi also sang the mukhra of this song but failed completely.The bass of Nain dwar se man mein voh aa ke tan mein aag lagaye was beyond the vocal capacities of any other singer.Is there anything as lovely as Mujhe tum se kucch bhi na chahiye mujhe mere haal pe chhod do in the repertoire of any other singer?Mahendra Kapoor and Kishore were full-throated singers.Rafi could sing at any pitch at will.He is full throated in O door ke musafir hum ko bhi saath le le hum reh gaye akele just as Mukesh is in Aa ab laut chalein in Jis Desh mein Ganga Behti hai.I heard today on world space radio a rarely heard Rafi-Suraiya duet Bekraar hai koi aa mere dildaar aa.Has anybody heard this one?About Manna De I would say that he lacked something that kept him back.Unlike Rafi,Mukesh and Kishore he couldn’t carry an entire film on his shoulders.Raj Kapoor tried him in Chori Chori in the absence of Mukesh who was busy producing his own film (in which enterprise the latter failed) but he found De’s voice to be too dry.

    Meanwhile,there is a heartening news for all lovers of music that there is a proposal to consider Rafi for the award of Bharat Ratna.The Indian Express has mentioned it in an editorial.Let us hope that the greatest Indian singer of all times gets his due,though belatedly.

  526. 526
    Dhani Ram Says:

    K.C.De was Manna De’s uncle.Manna had come to Bombay on K.C.’s call.As a music director,KC did his utmost to promote Manna.But he gave one song to Rafi to sing.Manna was annoyed and upset with his uncle for preferring Rafi.But Manna later gracefully admitted that the song with classical base was sung much better by Rafi than he himself could have done.That was Rafi’s greatness as a singer.

    Sudip,I salute you for your knowledge of music.

  527. 527
    Ashutosh Says:

    This is an endless debate. Those who love Rafi will always want to rate Rafi ahead of Kishore and Kishore Da’s lovers will never want to rate any other singer above them..

    The reality is “Both were great friends”! They used to love each other’s voice and style. I remember that Kishore Da always used to start his stage programs and concerts with Rafi’s song and Amit Kumar too is following that tradition even today. Such is the respect for Rafi and love in Kishore Da’s family! Same was there in Rafi’s family too for Kishore da!!

    You can list 100s of songs of each of these singers including Amit Kumar and can debate to eternity who is better!!!

    O.P. Nayyar once said about Amit Kumar that his voice has more ‘gamak’ (word used for subtance with great modulation) than even Kishore Da!!

    Today since both Kishore and Rafi are not with us, so let’s give them their due respect and space! Let’s not compare apple and orange!! Indian film music will never be complete without naming any of these!!

    I love both Kishore and Rafi very very much and AMit Kumar too!!! Amit Kumar was little under used singer in 80s and 90s. but he is singing more now at age of 55!!!! Le’ts wish him well!!

  528. 528
    Ashutosh Says:

    Isn’t it amazing and greatest gift to India that we witnessed greatest singers of all times in almost same era??? Then why we are debating??

    It’s like this : “Is Brahma bigger than Vishnu?” or “Is Shankar Bigger than Krishna and Indra?”

    See what god has betowed our great country with in same era:

    1) Rafi
    2) Kishore
    3) Mukesh
    4) Manna De
    5) Heman Kumar
    6) Talat Mehmud
    7) Lata Did
    8) Geeta Dutt
    9) Asha Bhonsale
    10) Suman Kalyanpur
    11) Shamshad Begam

    All these giants make music complete!! God gifted them with his love!!! Why we try to judge “whom God loved more?”!!

  529. 529
    ashu Says:

    I read all above comments. Few people got great sense of music and admiration toward great singers like Kishore, Rafi and Mukesh, but i dissappointed with few people’s comments.

    Here i would like to reply Vikram for his blog…
    *********************************************************
    Vikram wrote:

    Laxmikant-Pyarelal have always been of the opinion that when it comes to singing there is nobody bigger than Rafi. At the same time they never despised Kishore kumar. In fact, they used him for some of their great compositions. That’s what Rafi fans are like.

    My reply:

    LP were great fond of Rafi and Lata because Rafi and Lata sang for LP in their low time and they supported them at great extent during 60′s. And Pyare always shown his fondness for Kishore in his interview. He has great respect for Kishore. In one of his interview, one guy asked him who is his best singer, in replied he said “Rafi just ahead of KISHORE…”. My friend he could have easily mentioned Rafi and moved to the next question, but he didnot do that. Because he has immense respect for both.

    Vikram wrote:

    Now compare this with R D Burman. He only used Rafi when he had no other option

    My reply:

    Great line to laugh :) According to you RD used RAFI when there is no other option, If it is true then listed songs below are most difficult songs composed by RD :)
    1. Kya hua Tera wada
    2. Bottle se ek baat chali hai
    3. one song from Aandhi and many more…

    My dear friend Vikram, ask anyone who has little knowledge abt music abt above 3 songs. All songs are simplest songs, anybody can sing.

    Here is my analysis on above songs
    1. Hum kissi se kam nahi was multi starrer movie and Rafi voice was best suited to Taariq (Rafi got national award…Rafi again bounced back in industry. Rafi fan should be thanksful to RD)
    2. Song from Ghar. Picturised on Extras
    3. Song from Aandhi. Picturised on Extras

    All songs are simplest. Please don’t write things as per your convenience.
    I would like to mention one thing here.
    Kishore sang for Rajendra Kumar “Tumko bhi to aisa hi kuchh hota hoga” along with LATA under LP, though all songs were sung by RAFI. Does it mean Rafi was not able to sing this song?
    No my dear friend, It is all upto MD’s fondness and confidence abt their singers.

    RD,KA clearly said in all his interview that there is no match for Kishore. LP maintained balance between Kishore and Rafi.
    *********************************************************

    Kishore and Rafi, both were legend and there is no match for them

  530. 530
    anonymous Says:

    Ashuji:

    Pyare phrased his response “rafi is just ahead of kishore” because if he just said rafi, he would be failing to acknowledge kk’s tremendous contributions to lp. he also knew it was a hot topic and if he didn’t respond evenly and just overlook kk – it would upset a lot of people (including me, a rafian). In terms of favorite singer – just as there is no question kishore was rdb’s favorite – rafi was lp’s favorite.

    Second point with regards to rafi’s comeback. RDB used rafi in HKKN because producer Nasir Hussain made sure Rafi got songs in his movie. If RDB used Rafi for Nasir Hussain movies or movies in 60s – it is because indeed, he was forced to. If RDB used Rafi for Aandhi – it was to promote KK over Rafi by giving KK the best compositions and giving Rafi an average tune “Salam Kijiye”. The latter isn’t a song worth much talk (except for RDB’s motives) but I gather you haven’t heard it in a long time. RDB makes Rafi go to a very high pitch in that song (not really necessarily, almost to make fun of Rafi’s ability or to falsely show that they aren’t needed) when he sings “Hisaab Kijye” and no one but rafi could have gone to that scale and came down so quickly. Pyar Ka Mausam is another example. RDB gives Rafi an awful “tune” “Che Kush Nazare” and then has the “Tum Bin Jaaon Kahan fiasco”. That song was Bengali hit in Kishore’s voice years before so RDB knew he was on safe ground. He composes it to make Kishore look his best (yodeling) and takes out yodeling in Rafi’s “plain mandolin” composition (not that I care for a contest of yodeling as it is silly when we’re talking about singing) and the composition doesn’t require rafi sahab’s full abilities like “tere mere sapne” would. Very clever by rdb and people fall for it. Even then, a lot of people like the rafi version better but that movie was another attempt by rdb to make kk look better than rafi. Not to mention – rdb conveniently makes sure the clearly superior sad version by rafi is not in the lp.

    i’ll bet Rafi would have won FilmFare / National Award in 1977 for another song how about “pardah hai pardah” which was uber popular – even if RDB didn’t give him “Kya Hua Tera Wada”. It is rdb who wouldn’t have gotten the filmfare so rdb should be grateful to rafi. 1977 was the Rafi wave – he had the #2 & #3 top songs (among others). #1 being Lata’s song from Laila Majnu. Rafi’s comeback is responsible by (1) Madan Mohan. It was Laila Majnu in 1976 that had Rafi dominating charts – it was a HUGE musical blockbuster. It set everything else in motion (sort of like Aradhana in 1969). Nasir hussain, manmohan desai, lp, madan mohan –these guys deserve the credit. Rdb was lucky to win the award. The public got tired of hearing rafi for 20yrs in 1969 – they got tired of kishore wave and wanted rafi back by then. Btw – kya hua tera wada was an easy song to sing but only rafi could have expressed emotions in that song the way he did – which made it special.

    So if rdb wasn’t using rafi (1) because he was forced (2) to make rafi look average with average / outdated tunes, it was the occasional whim where yes he wanted rafi but this is infrequent. Of course, rdb always knew of rafi’s greatness – but he was on the campaign to promote his friend kk over rafi at any cost.

  531. 531
    anonymous Says:

    sorry – i got interrupted in the last post: only rafi could have sung that AND done FULL justice to the song. else you’d need bhupinder for the alaap and then kishore – which wouldn’t sound as good imo.

  532. 532
    ashu Says:

    Dear Sudip,

    Reply to ur few previous blog:
    First of all Manna Dey never comment on who is great, Kishore or Rafi. I have seen/read almost all his interview and i also published Manna Dey interview where he spoke abt Kishore and Rafi in Rafi’s website. He might have his spersonal favorite but he intelligently maintained balance between both.

    There is one song in Aradhana..
    “Gun Gun raha hai bhanware khil rahi hai kali kali”, sung by Rafi and Asha. Same song sung by Kishore and Asha in Aradhana Bengali version.Not only me but also there are genuine Rafi fans who accepted that Kishore’s version is much bettern than Rafi.
    Note: I would like to clear one thing here, i am not here to prove who is great here but i must say i am more inclined toward KISHORE.
    Pls. listen this song as good listner not as Kishore or Rafi fan and send ur comment.

    Is there any match for following song? Do you expect Rafi giving justice to these songs?
    1. Pyaar hame kis mod pe le aaya
    (Listen this song again an dlisten Kishore carefully)
    2. Aake sidhi lagi jaise dil pe kataria
    3. Tu aauro ki kyon ho gayi

    My dear friend, you cann’t take their indivisual songs for comparison. They all are unique and beyond comparison.
    I have a recording of Kishore’s concert where he remembered Rafi on his demise, This concert was held in Khandawa and he started the show with “Man re tu kaahe na dheer dhare”, one of the fabulous song sung by Rafi.
    Kishore had done great justic to this song without any music instrument. Pls. listen this song as music listener, not as Rafi fan :)

  533. 533
    Vikram Says:

    Ashu,
    You forgot to mention “Parda Hai parda” and “Maine Poocchha Chaand Se”. I was talking about songs like this. They were not Kishore’s cup of tea. No doubt about that. You mentioned Rajender Kumar. How many times did MD’s use KK for him? You can count it on your finger tips. In fact, Rafi was used regularly for Rajesh Khanna. I can easily list twenty songs of Rafi picturised on Rajesh Khanna. He was used on Amitabh even more. Kishore Kumar was never exclusive to a particular actor. Look at Rafi! He was exclusive to Rajinder Kumar, Dilip Kumar, Biswajeet, Raaj Kumar, Shammi Kapoor and Joy Mukherjee, Bharat Bhusan and Pradeep Kumar.
    For your information, if you are leaving in some other world-Rafi did playback for Kishore Kumar- not once, not twice, not thrice but eleven times. Eleven times! Can you imagine Udit Narayan singing for Sonu Nigam? Now this is called versatility. Like it or not, Rafi was simply matchless. You know it in your heart of hearts Ashu that there are more Kishore Kumar songs that are picturesed on third rate actors. Let me tell you that it does not make any difference. A good song is a good song. Looks like your overzealousness against Rafi will take you to any level.

    You also mentioned about MD’s fondness for singers. How many MD’s preferred KK? Not many. Rafi has sung for the most number of MD’s. All the greats like Shankar-Jaikishan, Roshan, Laxmikant-Pyarelal, Naushad, S D Burman, Madan Mohan, O P Nayyar always preferred Rafi. It was not because they liked him, but because he could sing just about anything. On the other hand Kishore was the first choice of RD Burman and Bhappi Lahiri. RD was good, but not great. Most of his hit tunes were lifted from other sources. And Bhappi Lahiri. Less said the better. He is among the worst music directors that we have had, if not the worst. Kishore was definitely a great singer, but not the best.
    RD Burman was part of a cabal that was planning Rafi’s ouster from the industry. You know the other members of this cabal. He was a thankless guy. It was Rafi who brought him into big league with films like Teesri Manzil and Baharoan Ke Sapane. He went back to Rafi when his magic started to wane away in the late 70′s. In fact, his fans should be grateful to Rafi that he brought him a national award. Ashu do you know if Kishore-RD combine ever win a national award?

  534. 534
    Vikram Says:

    Ashu, I can not imagine even in my wildest dreams any singer other than Rafi doing justice to a song like “Man Re Tu Kahe na Dheer Dhare”. It’s another point that Kishore Kumar should be commended for his tribute to Rafi Sahab. By the way this song was declared as the song of the millennium, not by Rafi fans, but by a jury that included lots and lots of diehard Kishore fans.

  535. 535
    ashu Says:

    Vikram,

    Thwarted view. I am really disappointed abt reading ur article.
    Kishore was never exclusive for particular actor :) He was voice of Rajesh Khanna and Amitabh in particular. There is no doubt that Rafi also sang for these actors, because they both belongs to same era. My dear friend, even Sonu Nigam and Udit narayan sang for Amitabh, and u will surpeise to know it is not one song but more than one. Do you know why, because they are running(current) singers and the same happened during that time.

    Md. Rafi was only voice for Shammi, Johny walker and other 3rd class actors like Joy Mukhrajee, Pradeep Kumar, BHarat Bhushan. He was never voice of Dilip Kumar. Talat Mehmood was first voice for Dilip Kumar. During 60s, Rafi was on top and so he become voice for all leading actors. Same like kishore for 70′s and 80′s actors. For e.g. Sanjay Dutt, Anil Kapoor, Govinda, Mithun, Vikram and many…

    You asked me how many MDs prefer Kishore. There are many names like
    - RDB
    - KA
    - Bappi Lahiri
    - Rajesh Roshan
    Above names which i mentioned were 100% fond (they are biased) of Kishore. In case of Rafi, i could remember only 3 name who are 100% fond of Rafi…They are..
    - Nausad
    - O P Nayyar
    - Madan Mohan

    If you read carefully i mention 100% (they are biased toward 1 singers). In above list, I did not mention SJ, SDB,LP, KHYAAM, becaue they might have personal fav, but they are not biased in offering songs to particular singer.

    I am really pitty on ur knowledge that Rafi promoted RDB in Teesari Manzil. Its really funny.
    Rafi was selected as singer because he was voice of Shammi, and my dear friend if you have seen/heard Nazir Hussain interview where he mentioned about the bet he had with RDB. RDB said ASHA will sung better than Rafi and Nazir differ that, and at the end Nazir lost the bet by paying 100 rs. to RBD, because ASHA totally eclipsed Rafi. Song was “AAJA AAJA main hu Pyaar Tera”.

    Note: This has been told by Asha herself and Nazir hussain.

    It doesn’t mean Rafi was lesser than ASHA, but i must say this song was not his cup of tea.

    About National award. Rafi fan should be greatful to RDB becuase Rafi got national award for HUM KISI SE KAM NAHI…

    Finally Let me correct you. “Parda hai Parda” composed by LP not RDB.
    Vikram, I have one question for you.
    Why not RDB asked RAFI to sing following songs..These are not simplest songs

    - O Maanjhi RE, Apna Kinara Nadiya ki dhaara hai (Kishore)
    - EK Chatur naar (Manna Dey version)
    - Chingari koi bhadke (Kishore)
    - Duniya mein ha ah ah Logon ko (RDB version)
    and Many more

  536. 536
    Vikram Says:

    Ashu,
    Why did S D Burman replace Kishore with Rafi for the hindi version of the song “Gunguna Rahe hain”, even though he stuck with Asha as the female voice? The question that you raised is an answer in itself. You have inadvertently proven that there is no way Kishore Kumar would have sounded better than Rafi in this song. S D Burman was a master at choosing his singers. He knew their strengths and weaknesses. He used Kishore Kumar very well in some of his compositions. But, the music that he created with Rafi was divine. That’s what he is mostly remembered for. He was way ahead of his son in musical sense. He considered Rafi to be his first serve. Dada Burman told Kishore Kumar during the recording of the songs for the movie “The Guide” that he loved him (KK) a lot but he (KK) could not sing better than Rafi.
    As far as Kalyanji-Anandji combine is concerened, I think they never had a preference for any singer. Mukesh, it would seem was vastly used by them to great effect. Kishore Kumar did sing some chartbusters for them. They made it big with “Jab Jab Phool Khile”. Until this film happened , they were widely popular, but not in the same league as Shankar-Jaikishen, SD Burman or OP Nayyar. It was Rafi who did the honours here. Anandji was of the opinion that Rafi indeed was the most versatile and technically perfect singer.
    I was surprised by your choice of songs that you mentioned for comparision with Rafi. There are so many great Kishore songs that you could have referred to. Rafi would have sung these songs in his sleep. In one of the songs Kishore Kumar sounds very unconvincing when he does the female voice over. I have gone through all your posts. At times you sound confused. One moment you say that we should not compare their individual songs, the very next moment you are saying that Rafi would not have been able to sing this or that Kishore Kumar song. In absence of coherence in your thoughts, it becomes difficult to analyse them.

  537. 537
    AKHIL SHAIKH Says:

    RAFI IS GRATE SIGER HI IS KING OF SINGERS I LOVE RAFI

  538. 538
    AKHIL SHAIKH Says:

    RAFI IS KING OF SINGIRS ” Use nagmoki ja ahle nazar yu hi nahi khte ”
    kishor kumar is very best singar but not as commpiur to Rafi sahab

  539. 539
    AKHIL SHAIKH Says:

    ”Koi kuchbhi khe Rafi to Rafi hai ” ” Na fankar tujhsa tere bad aaya mohd.
    Rafi tu bahot yad aaya”
    Kishor eak ache singer the par Rafi sahb ke sath unki tulna it is rong

  540. 540
    AKHIL SHAIKH Says:

    Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi Rafi ”Are namhi kitna suhana hai fir kis batki bhes chodo yar chalo koi gan
    sunte hai” Tere mere sapne ab eak rang hai jahan bhi le jae rahe hum sang hai”

  541. 541
    Krupesh Patel Says:

    Its amazing for me, rafi fans regulary visit kk site & give their comments & opinion, because they rafi fans but also like kk, they just give their opinion in mannerful langauage.

    I am rafian, its very rare to see comment of any kk fan on rafi website. most of worst article & meaningless

    In my opinion around 90% rafian visit kk & other singers website but, kk fans behave like frog in well.

  542. 542
    ashu Says:

    Dear Anonymous,

    I differ from you view.
    I belive “Che khush Nazare” is not executed properly. His voice is very very thin when he sang “antara”, you have rights to differ.

    I appreciate that you have little knowledge abt 70s era. It is history that Rafi did not regain his postion after 70′s. Nobody can change it

    Here is my reply for rafi’s popularity after 76…
    There is no doubt that Rafi bounced back well in 76, credit goes to RDB and LP. He bounce back, but did not regain his position.

    People started talking abt rafi after 76-77, because he got national award for HKSKN and nominated for Amar Akbar Anthony. He was holding top position till late 60s, and suddenly he lost his position in 70s and again he come back in 76 with 2 great songs followed many due to which people started talking abt him again.

    Can you forget songs from “Teen Deviyan”,”Door Gagan ki Chhaoon me”, “Paying Guest”, “Jewel Thief” and many more. These songs were equally hit and greately sung by Kishore during 60s. Since Rafi was on top that time people don’t talk abt that song. Since Rafi was on his lower and he bounced back in 76, so people started consoling themselve by saying Rafi regain #1 position which is completely false.

    Dear friend, Rafi was alive till 80s and i know how many filmfare award he got. FYI He was nominated for “Parda Hai Parda”. He did not get award, even kishore got nomination for “AMAR PREM” but he did not get.

    I always get annoyed when people like you write some nonsense thing abt RDB. Kishore was RDB’s personal fav as Rafi was personal fav. for Naushad. RDb used Rafi intelligently, and he kept giving him work though Rafi lost his market value.

    - RDB asked Rafi to sing “Yadoon Ki Baarat”
    *** don’t say Nasir asked RDB to use Rafi.
    - RDb used Rafi for rajesh Khanna “Kahe ko bulaya mujhe baar baar”
    ***don’t say this is most complex song and only Rafi could have sung
    - RDB used Rafi for “Maine puchha chaand se”
    ***don’t say this is most complex song and only Rafi could have sung

    Do you know…Kishore sang only one song in “CARAVAN” whereas Rafi sang all songs. In 71, Kishore song in “CARAVAN” was most popular than other songs in the film.

  543. 543
    ashu Says:

    Vikram…
    Do you know Bengali song recorded later to Hindi version? SD did not replace Kishore, but he replace Rafi.
    Note: I was not talking abt replacement in my earlier blog, i was talking abt who sounds good. But you forced me to write so. I am not bengali, not even understand bengali but when i heard his version, it sound better than hindi. There was another song sung by Kishore in Bengali, and same song sung by Bappi Lahiri in “Satyamev Jayte”. Bengali was more popular and 100% times better than Bappi, does it mean Bappi replaced Kishore.

    Don’t write as per ur convenience.

    Dear vikram
    You wrote:

    There are so many great Kishore songs that you could have referred to. Rafi would have sung these songs in his sleep. In one of the songs Kishore Kumar sounds very unconvincing when he does the female voice over. I have gone through all your posts. At times you sound confused. One moment you say that we should not compare their individual songs, the very next moment you are saying that Rafi would not have been able to sing this or that Kishore Kumar song. In absence of coherence in your thoughts, it becomes difficult to analyse them

    My reply:

    My dear friend, I am not confused. I am answering ur doubt. I never compare singers because i believe everyone has their own charm. I would not like to listen if any singer sing KISHORE’s song. Not only his songs but also his each and every harkat i know which noone can match. Same i can say in favor of Rafi. So i am very much sure what i am writing.
    What rafi would have done in his sleep, only he would have known. Even you can sing better than Rafi, you can act better than Amitabh in your sleep. Noone can stop you:)

    Again.. You can’t compare singers based on their indivisual songs. If you really want to compare singer than take one or two songs which sung by both.
    For e.g.
    - TUM bin Jaaooo kaha
    - HUM Premi prem karna jaane
    - HUMKO tumse ho gaya hai pyar
    - KYA mousam hai
    (This is the song where i switched my fav. from Rafi to Kishore when i was 10 yrs. old. I must say Rafi is still my second fav.)

    Kishore had guts to experiment, rafi was always stick to himself. That’s why people said Kishore was “a man of many parts” or “multifaceted. I don’t remember any title for RAFI. Let me know if you know anything.

  544. 544
    Ganesh Says:

    Are Bewaqoofon…… Listen Rafi Saab’s “Tarif Karoon Kya Uski Jisne Tumhe Banaya” only. He repeated 17 times these words in the song and each and every times his modulations are different……… Haa Modulation Ki Baat Karte Hain Bewaqoof…. wasty……

  545. 545
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu,

    You and I differ on too many points. Some things you claim fact to me see easily disprovable with data e.g. charts. I think it is laughable you fail to mention SJ who easily used Rafi the most, just as RDB did. It wasn’t about preference. SD Burman regarded Rafi the best singer – he stated this in an interview in the 70s (during the peak Kishore wave). He said something to the effect, “Aradhana may have marked by comeback but my pride and joy was Guide. For that movie I had my 2 best singers – Rafi & Lata”. Roshan, Chitragupta, Ravi, SJ, LP, OP Nayyar, Madan Mohan, Naushad, Husnlal Bhaghatram, Usha Khanna, , Shankar Jaikishan – they preferred Kishore Kumar.

    Bappi Lahiri – hahaahahaha! what a joke – no one cares about Bappi – he doesn’t stand next composing greats like Madan Mohan and Shankar Jaikishan. You obviously know little about music if you think Rafi only had a few hit songs in the 1980s. Look at the charts from 1977-1980, look at Rafi’s output in that period – more than Kishore’s. It is laughable that you fail to acknowledge Madan Mohan who started things in 1976 with blockbuster Laila Majnu. I doubt you’ve even heard them!

    In any case – these arguments are pointless. Let the music decide. When upcoming generations hear Rafi – the music itself will make it clear who was the best of the best. Your revisionist theories will be of no avail. Case in point – you talk about that single Kishore song in Caravan being more popular in 1971 – no one remembers that today yet the three excellent Rafi duets are still popular to this day. Of course you knew that that is why you convenient mentioned “in 1971″. It was the Kishore wave – THANKS to Rafi. Rafi had ruled for 20yrs people needed a break so they tuned to Kishore. 6 yrs later they come back to Mohd Rafi – the best! You CAN’T change the facts – see the charts to see who was number 1!

  546. 546
    Vikram Says:

    Ashu,
    I am also not a bengali, but I know that there are so many bengali tunes that SD Burman gave to Rafi for their hindi version. Kishore Kumar was an active singer during those times. If the bangla version of the song “Gunguna rahe hain” was recorded after Aradhana, then I apologise for my previous post. If that’s the case then I am sure it was not because KK was a better singer than Rafi, but because Kishore was born and brought up a bengali, and would have understood the nuances of the language far better than Rafi. How many Punjabi songs did Kishore sing? Rafi sang a lot of them. For the same reason Kishore sang so many bangla songs.
    What do you mean by multifaceted? If you are referring to KK’s acting abilities, then there is no point in discussing music. Thank God, he mostly stuck to singing. As a singer he was great. No doubt about that. I have the highest regards for his singing. as far as acting is concerned, he was below average. Here I have no qualms about using the word ‘third rate’. Joy Mukherjee, Bishwajeet, Pradeep Kumar and others may not have been great actors, nonetheless were very populr and ofcourse better than kishore. You know why? Because of one and only one Rafi. Kishore Kumar has sung for more third rate actors. He has also sung more trash than any other singer. I have seen some of KK’s movies. To tell you the truth, I could not get past the first ten minutes. But, that does not take away the shine from his singing capabilities.
    If your reference was to him being a multifaceted singer, then I disagree totally. It was Rafi alone who could be categorised as a multifaceted singer. Look at his repertoire! Ghazals, Semi-Classical, Classical, Fast songs, sad songs, Quawali’s, Bhajans and Patriotic songs. This is the definition of a multifaceted singer. Rafi did full justice to all these categories. I am sorry to say that Kishore Kumar does not belong to some of them. He has given us some great gems, but when pitted against the variety, quality and quantity that Rafi offered, Kishore comes second best. Now that’s what I call experimentation. Rafi challenged his vocals to sing songs from different genres. He sang Manna Dey type songs better than him. Manna agrees. look at the man’s greatness! He rendered Kishore and Mukesh style songs with ease. Nitin Mukesh said in an interview that Mukesh once told him that among his contemporaries there was nobody like Rafi. He was known to mould his voice as the situation warranted. He was the one for all occassions. He adjusted his voice according to the actor’s on whom a particular song was being picturised.
    As far as the title goes——-multifaceted is definitely not a title. Dear Ashu, Rafi sahab received a Silver medal from the then Prime Minister Nehru as early as 1948. That time he was a new comer. In 1965 he was conferred PADAMSHRI by the Govrnment of India. After that he became Padamshri Mohd. Rafi. It’s another story that he deserves much more. This is what a title is! Was Kishore kumar ever conferred any title by the Government? Not that I know of. Again, awards should not be a parameter to measure one’s greatness. I had to mention it because you asked me about it.
    I would like to refer to the songs that you mentioned in your last post. kishore and Rafi Have both done a fabulous job. Since I am vouching for Rafi, it’s but natural that I would say that rafi sounds better in all these songs. You, on the other hand are all for Kisore. So for you kishore will sound better. This question should better be left to somebody like Dhani Ram, Sudip or Mr. haldar.
    As far as Asha Bhonsle goes. She was a sore loser. She and lata new it that as long as Rafi was around, they would not be able to sustain themselves at the top. They started playing politics with him. They were both decimated by rafi in the duets that he sang with them. Asha is a very selfish singer. It was OP nayyar who made what she is today. When she fell out with him for her second love in RD Burman, she gave all the credit to him. Whatever Asha says about Rafi is all nonsense. She is a horrible person. She even ditched RD in his last days. What a joke! Rafi could not get the nuances of the song “AaJa Aaja”. Asha says so. Listen to the song carefully. Asha sounds vulgar. She overdid it. Rafi was just perfect. What does it matter anyway. This song is identified with Rafi. No matter whoever you bring into picture, Kishore just can not compete with Rafi.
    Somebody asked rajesh Roshan about the degrading music quality. You probaly know what he said, but then you don’t want to share the truth. His answer was that since there is no Rafi, it’s very hard to create good music.
    Kishore Kumar was Bhappi Lahiri’s mama. Do I need to add more. Although it does not matter as he as I said earlier is amongst the worst of worsts music directors. He is a good human being though. Yes, RD was good and indeed made good use of Kishore kumar.
    Rafi not being the voice of Dilip Kumar! Ashu are you out of your mind? It’s like saying that Mukesh never sang for Raj kapoor and for that matter Kisore kumar never did playback for Rajesh Khanna. You should research your thoughts before they take the shape of the words. Recently Dev Anand said in one of his interviews that his best songs came from Rafi, and he indeed is indebted to him. That does not make Kishore Kumar a bad singer. All I wanted to convey through this post was that what others say about one’s abilities does not really matter. if somebody is good majority of the people will like him or her.
    In the heat of the moment we are forgetting Mukesh, Manna Dey Mahender Kapoor and other stalwarts. we sould also be grateful to them for what they have given us.

  547. 547
    xxx Says:

    mr.ashu,,

    rafi sahab was versatile genious & kk was not even 10% of rafi sahab,, it was rdb’s gr8 music that brought up kk as a singer…

  548. 548
    Vikram Says:

    Sorry guys for my last long post. I will try to keep it short next time.

  549. 549
    Dipak Says:

    As a Kishore fan I must to say that Rafi Saab had a clear,expression ,silky smooth voice which was suited to Lata Rafi.However Kishore had a mid range maste type of voice which suited high energy type of singing (Asha suited)and sometimes really excelled at sad songs .Rafi was more classically trained flexible voice.Even Kishore da looked up to Rafi Saab who contributed 26,000 songs to Hindi Film Song Industry.Kishore saab had to two photographs of Rafi Saab and Saigal saab in his sitting room…and often in the 1970`s he use to call Rafi himself or suggested to the music director as a better alternative to him sing that particular song..

  550. 550
    ashu Says:

    Sorry Vikram,
    I could not read ur blog, because it is too big and i don’t have time to read. I will read if u get some spare time.

    Deepak,
    My dear friend, I visited KISHORE’s house in Juhu, KiSHORE KUMAR GANGULY MARG. It has only K L Saigal photo and Dev Anand. He did not have Rafi photo though he admired Rafi. (false information spread by few Rafians)
    YOu are right, he alwayd recommended Rafi as alternative for him. You know, Kishore always show his incompetency (in Joyous mood ) that he is not able to sing phalana phalana song. There are 2 examples
    - Sachhai chhup nahi sakti from “Dushaman”
    - Haal kya hai dilo ka na pochho sanam
    He asked LP to call Rafi for these 2 songs, but LP knew that only KISHORE could do justice to these songs and rest are history.

    Manish Kumar, My dear friend, Rafi was alwys there. Nobody came back to him after 76. he was very much active from 70 to 76. But i must say he again come in the limelight after winning national award for HKSKN and nomination for AAA movies. But history witness that he never regain his position. You can write and say whatever you feel, but it will not chnage the history.
    FYI, Not only I heard Laila Majnu songs but also i watched the movie, they are definetely good songs but i can’t hear them more than once. Whereas i can hear “Chand mera dil”,”Maine poocha chand se”, “Parda hai parda”,”Dard-e-dil” infinite times of 70s.

    There are many “PADAMSHREE”s who doesnot deserve. There was a program on NDTV last week on Bharat Ratna. Many deserving people denied this award in past. Mere dost, “PADAMSHREE”,”PADAM VIBHUSHAN” and “BHARAT RATNA”, If you remember RAMVILAS PAWAN (dirty politician-play caste and minority politics) recommneded TATYA TOPE, RAFI and one more name(i forgot) for BHARAT RATNA. You know why he recommended these 3 names because all belongs to either SC,ST or minority.
    I always believe in award which masses and classes approve. After 27 years since he past, peolple like you and me are talking abt him and kishore (20 years since past) is real award.
    My dear friend, Sanjeev Kumar was more versatile actor than Amitabh. He performed almost all character during his acting career. He (SK) is famous no doubt, but AMITABH is AMITABH, same for KISHORE.

  551. 551
    ashu Says:

    Manish Kumar,

    According to me, SD gave brilliant composition for “MERI SURAT TERI AANKHE” and “BANDINI”.
    GUIDE is far behind to these composition. Why not SD asked Rafi to sing “GAATA RAHE MERA DIL”? Because he felt that this song would be good in Kishore voice and other songs would be good in Rafi’s voice…(Don’t forget Rafi was on top during that time). First i would like to mention, i don’t believe in word like “IF”,” AGAR AISA HOTA TO”.
    Rafi’s songs in GUIDE was superb and masterpiece, but they are not very complex and complicated that no other singer could have sang.

    Just listen another master priece by SD.
    - TU ne hami kya diya ri zindagi..from “Zindagi Zindagi”
    (Not les than guide song in any department)

    - Duniya o Duniya Tera jawaab nahi… from NAYA ZAMANA

    Above all are master pieces and Rafi like songs which executed by Kishore brialliantly.

  552. 552
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu ji,

    I am no one to “personally” put someone down over the Internet so I won’t. But I’ll gently say that you are grossly misinformed on some matters. For example, “Gata Rahe Mera Dil” was composed by SD Burman on the special request of Dev Anand to have at least one Kishore Kumar song in there. Therefore – RD Burman did not choose Kishore over Rafi for this song because he felt it would be better in Kishore’s voice – as you suggested. If anything – if it wasn’t for Dev Anand – SDB would not have even bothered to put Kishore Kumar in the score that he considered his career best (contrary to you).

    You are certainly entitled to your personal, subjective opinion -your comments on some SDB songs grossly contradict SDB’s own opinions of his music. SDB outright told Kishore that Kishore (or any other singer for that matter) could never sing those three solos as well as Rafi. What is very “difficult” about those three songs is perfectly expression the emotions / mood of the story – which Rafi (and according to SDB) only Rafi could do justice to. This is a big contradiction to what you’re saying.

    You mentioned some Rafi-Kishore duets where Kishore sounded better – interestingly I felt exactly the opposite way for those songs! I even felt it wasn’t a matter of personal taste when talking about something like melody or modulation (these things can be measured). Many of your opinions are very specific and imbalanced (i.e. you’re uber KK – nothing wrong with that). I repeat – that is fine.

  553. 553
    Manish Kumar Says:

    TYPO! I said RD Burman when it should have been SD Burman. sorry

    “Therefore – RD Burman (meant SDB) did not choose Kishore over Rafi for this song because he felt it would be better in Kishore’s voice – as you suggested. If anything – if it wasn’t for Dev Anand – SDB would not have even bothered to put Kishore Kumar in the score that”

  554. 554
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend,

    I am sorry to say that you don’t have correct information. “Gaate Rahe Mera dil” song was recorded earlier, and there were no conflit for this song should be there or not.
    What you said is correct for “DUM maro dum” song, I think you have mistaken.
    Manish, think logically, why should one asked to invest in something which is not saleable or not very much popular (In context of Dev asking SDB to compose song for Kishore).

    I’ll repeat “GAATA RAHE MERA DIL” song was not composed on request of Dev Anand. Please check it, I am sure it will clear ur doubt.

    My dear, SDb always bother, because he knew only Kishore can surpass Rafi and the same thing happened in 69.
    I have seen one old recording of SDB in Zee channel around 92-93 programme call “GATA RAHE MERA DIL”, he was asked to name few best composition of his own and he replied “MERE SURAT TERI AANKHE”, “BANDINI”, and of course GUIDE was there but not on top. If you read my blog, i wrote
    ****************

    According to me, SD gave brilliant composition for “MERI SURAT TERI AANKHE” and “BANDINI”.

    You did not reply me previous blog. There are couple of songs i have mentioned which was more like Rafi’s style, but SDB prefer Kishore
    for e.g.
    - Kaise kahe hum, pyaar ne humko…. (Sharmilee)
    - Tu ne hame kya diya ri zindagi …. (Zindagi Zindagi)
    - Duniya o Duniya Tera jawaab nahi…(Naya Zamaana)

    Above songs are brilliantly composed by SDB, and it is as good as GUIDE song. You are free to differ.

    SDB was only MD after khmechand who recognised Kishore’s talent, that’s why he promoted Kishore. Do you remember, there was movie called “SAGINA”, acted by DILIP KUMAR. Rafi became voice for Dilip Kumar in mid60s and 70s, but SDB selected Kishore as voice for Dilip. All songs are brilliantly executed, specially “SAALA main to Saheb ban gaya” and one beautiful duet with LATA.

    I personally believe Dilip could not do justice to his voice in “SAALA main to saheb ban gaya”.
    Manish Kumar, You have right to differ me but one gentle request pls. gather correct information from reliable source and post it.

  555. 555
    ashu Says:

    Manish,
    Sorry to reply you again. i got few second, so i thought to reply you.

    First of all what you said abt “GAATA RAHE MERA DIL” is incorrect, but let’s assume it is correct for a second. If it is so then Pls. answer me why Kishore sang more number of songs in next releases for DevAnand under SDB
    - Teen Deviyan
    - Jewel Thief
    - Gambler
    - Tere Mere Sapne
    And many more…
    Now pls. don’t say, Dev Anand requested SDB to compose song for Rafi or SDB desperately wanted Rafi to sing those songs or all song sang by Rafi was difficult and Kishore was simple.

  556. 556
    Vikram Says:

    Ashu, The three KK songs that you mentioned in your last post are the kind of songs I was talking about. I would add Kuchh To Log Kahenge, Koi Humdum Na Raha, Jeevan se Bhari Teri Aankhein, Zindagi Ka Safar, Dekha Hai Zindagi Ko and Kora Kagaz, to name a few. These are absolute gems. Kishore Kumar is brilliant in them. Duniya -O-Duniya in particlar is among my all time favorites. I have never and will never dispute his singing abilities.
    The only difference when you compare Rafi’s best with any other singer’s best is that -”little extra”- he used to add to the compositions. The way he stressed on some words in a particular song made his renditions extra special. The other day I was listening to the song “Zindagi Bhar Nahin Bhoolegi Woh Barsaat Ki Raat”, a Rafi-Lata duet. Lata for most part sings it straight. Whereas Rafi stresses more on some words, mainly Barsaat and Raat. The way he prolongs Barsaa–aa—aa—–aat and Raa–aa—-aat, is spell bounding. It was his this touch that made him tower over his other great contemporaries. He simply weaved magic with lyrics.
    The three Rafi songs from the movie “Guide” are a transcendent experience. He has far exceeded the limits of playback singing. The intensity with which he rendered these songs is just divine. SD Burman was most proud of Rafi and his compositions in this movie. Two of these songs also featured in the ‘songs of the millennium’ list.

  557. 557
    Manish Kumar Says:

    i think jewel thief had 2 kk songs and 1 rafi. the difference is too insignificant to speculate. even then, that single rafi duet is the one where lata finally ended her ill advised 3 yr boycott of rafi. the other three movies you mention are from early 70s. reason is because kishore kumar was #1 commercially by then. the other two reasons are not as significant and are only my suggestions (only dada would know): sdb had seen kishore struggle for 23 years and was happy to see him get a break and give him lots of songs (2) compositions in 70s were easier to sing. you won’t agree i know – but sdb would. salaa mai to sahab bangaya was just a loud, fun song but tere mere sapne was a song difficult to perfectly express the emotions / mood – which according to dada only rafi could do justice too. so yes – the reason for taking kk over rafi was never because kk was a better singer. sdb himself stated after the kishore wave (or during) that his best singer was rafi.

    why was kishore #1 commercially in early 70s? you won’t like my answer but it fascinates me so i’ll say it again. rafi was undisputed #1 for 20 yrs prior. 20 years! that is a long time. especially when you consider that rafi sang for just about every hero and even within the same movie sang all the songs – even for different characters. naturally the public got tired of his voice and needed a change of voice – kishore. so for the next few years the public was “resting” from rafi. this is why the excellent rafi songs in caravan, aap aaye bahaar, mehboob ki mehndi, and maybe even gambler were overshadowed by average kishore kumar songs in that time. today – those kishore songs are forgotten in those movies and the rafi songs are popular to this day. because people today are not experiencing that “wave”. let’s just disagree on who was #1 in 1977-1980. i’m sure if someone dug out the charts they’d see the truth. but for my money – kishore got the better fo rafi for 6 years in a 30 yr overlap. even then, you won’t deny it took kishore 23 years to “overtake” rafi. so why did it take so long if kishore was better all along? this shows that kishore may compete with rafi in one limited spectrum (70s music) – but overall – rafi was undisputed king. the careers show that. there are some songs that are best suited for kishore. then there are songs that are better suited for rafi. no denying. but the latter song is larger than the former.

    people talk about reigns. rafi was 1952-1970 and kishore was 1970-1987. then it is kishore’s misfortune because 50s and 60s were golden age of music NOT only because all great singers were there (kishore, rafi, mukesh etc) but because the COMPOSERS were so much better. do you really think bappi can compete with the likes of shankar jakishan? 80s only had rdb, lp, and ka – the rest to me are insignifant. 1952-1970 whips 1970-1987 and i don’t blame kishore for that.

  558. 558
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu,

    I just heard those songs you mentioned. SDB chose Kishore for the reasons mentioned. Not because they would be better in Kishore’s voice. And they weren’t exactly “career best scores” either. SDB didn’t need his first serve in 70s. Not a good idea to bring up SDB when talking Rafi vs Kishore. SDB always considered Rafi his first serve. It means SDB considered Rafi more capable musically – but he liked them both very much.

    At the same time – I’m glad those songs were in the voice of Kishore. These are the first 3 Kishore songs I have heard in 4 days – else it was Rafi all the way. So thanks for the break with a new, golden voice – Kishore Kumar :) but overall – rafi was the best.

  559. 559
    Manish Kumar Says:

    16 out of the top 25 for binaca geet mala in May 1980 were Mohd Rafi’s! This is before rafi died – not after – so don’t think people started listening to him more out of death sympathy. That’s a fact and it directly contradicts your statement.

  560. 560
    Sudip Says:

    Ashu wrote:
    “In teesri manjil Rafi was selected as singer because he was voice of Shammi, and my dear friend”

    –Possibly true.. But did you ever wonder why RDB chose Rafi over Kishore in “The Train” for Rajesh Khanna, that too in the post Aradhana period? Going by your logic, RDB should have chosen KK since he was Rajesh’s voice. Or by the same logic, why did LP select Kishore in Rajendra Kumar’s “Aap Aayee Bahar Ayee” (though for a single low-key song)

    Actually Rajesh Khanna wave was so strong in the early 70s that songs would just become hit (Not to take away credit from Kishore who fascinated me in Kati Patang, Mehbooba, Aap Ki Kasam and Amar Prem). In spite of being an ardent Rafi fan, I think Kishore, in these films, set a level very difficult to reach for anyone!

    My point is simple: every single Rajesh Khanna film that Rafi was the dominant singer in, was a super hit as well. Mehboob Ki Mehndi’s music was a superhit, The Train was a superhit, Do Raaste was a super-duper hit (not to ignore Kishore and Mukesh’s contribution too), Chhoti Bahu was excellent. In fact, the song “Yeh raat hai pyasi pyasi” will easily come as one of the best romantic songs of Rajesh.

    Anu Malik (not that I hold him in very high esteem) rated two Rafi songs at the top of his all-time favorites among all songs. “Tumne Mujhe Dekha” and “Gulabi aakhen”, interestingly both under the RDB baton.

    I personally feel, Kishore Kumar UNDERSTOOD junior Burman (UNDERSTOOD is the key word here). This is the special bonding that a singer develops with a Music director..Rafi also sang superhits under RDB, but there is something in Kishore’s rendition that added that “extra” in Rahul Dev’s music. “Gum Hai kis ki pyar mein” or “Rim jhim gire saawan” are prime examples. Every time I listen to those songs I realize that there are murkiyas that Kishore captured so well.. Rafi has sung typical RDB numbers like “Waadiyan mera daman”- a good song, but that jhalak is somehow missing.. The only song where I thought Rafi understood RDB was “Zamane ne marey jawan kaise kaise”.

    In the same token I feel Rafi UNDERSTOOD LP. There are tons of Kishore songs under LP where I thought Rafi would have done more justice to (possibly LP realized that as well, so post Dharam Veer, it was Rafi and Rafi only). LPs songs have some murkiya and harkatein which Rafi captured so well.
    —————————————————

    PS: Similarly, Khaiyyam’s song “Aakhon mein humne aap ke” is meant to be a “RAFI song”-period.. The frequency of the song is “made for Rafi”…Everytime I listen to that song, I feel sorry for Kishore. He tried hard but………. I guess Rafi was dead by the time this was recorded.

  561. 561
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend Vikram,

    I like ur analysis on “Barsaat ki raat song”. It is a gem, no doubt. You are inclined toward Rafi so you are anlaysis this song with your preference and tatse.
    Pls. analyse “Duniya o Duniya” It is an another gem, rendition of each and every word is superb, mind blowing. I always listen this song in my weekend, deafult. I differ on ur “little extra”, I understood what u mean, but still i would like you to elaborate.
    I’ll give you scenario iin same context. Lets’s assume if same song sung by any other singer (Think of Rafi’s resemble voice Mahendra Kapoor), I am sure he would have sang this song in his style which could be definetely good. He could also able to add “little extra”.
    I mean to say every singer has “Little extra”. People like that “little extra” based on taste. People who likes Hemant Kumar, they say same thing abt him.
    But I like ur analysis.

    Pls. analyse this song..
    1. Tumko khush dekh kar main bahut khush hua
    2. Tera Jalwa touba hai, Tera Jalwa
    3. Jaanu Meri jaan (especially Nazon se na tol mujhe dil se kaam le)

    - Don’t you thikn Kishore voice was cherry on cake in all above songs. He add so “little extra”(in ur word:) ) that he overshadow rafi

    4. Tum bin jaaon kaha
    - Kishore took this song to extra height…
    Acording to me, that is what you mean “little extra” :)

    My dear friend Manish,
    Again ur blog is based on ur little incorrect knowledge abt singers and MDS.
    FYI
    -Teen Deviyan was released in 1965-66, If i am not wrong, then this movie relesead after GUIDE
    - Tere Mere Sapne released in 1971, same year as “CARAVAN”
    - GAMBLER (I agree KISHORE was on top).
    Here what you wrote:

    why was kishore #1 commercially in early 70s? you won’t like my answer but it fascinates me so i’ll say it again. rafi was undisputed #1 for 20 yrs prior. 20 years! that is a long time. especially when you consider that rafi sang for just about every hero and even within the same movie sang all the songs – even for different characters. naturally the public got tired of his voice and needed a change of voice – kishore. so for the next few years the public was “resting” from rafi.

    I can only laugh on ur comment. I don’t understand one thing How can people get tired of genuine singer and genuine voice.
    I am not tired of listenig Kishore and Rafi since last 30 yrs, and i believe nobody can tired of listening their fav wether it is Manna Dey, Pt. Bhimsen Joshi, Hariprasad Chourai or any legend. It is like you are consoling ur self by writing such line.
    It is hisory that Rafi never regain his #1 after 70 though he was almost there till he dies.
    And abt Bappi Lahiri..
    Pls. don’t misunderstand me, just eager to ask. Do you have any knowldge abt music or do you play any instrument? Though i don’t rate him greatest(I mean he can’t stand next to other genious MDS), he is not worst.
    I saw his interview on Zee TV recently “JEENA ISI KA NAAM HAI”, he started playing TABLA when he was 5 yrs. old, and i was impressed to see him playing TABLA in fusion with DRUM played by his son BAppa.
    Bappi Lahiri who gave follwoing composition:
    1. Chalte Chalte mere e geet yaad rakhna’
    2. Pyaar maanga hai tumhi se
    3. Manzilen aoni jagah hai
    4. Pag ghugharoo bandh
    5. Muskurata hua gul khilata hua mera yaar (My most fav.)
    6. Kisi nazar ko tera, intezaar aaj bhi hai (Great Composition)

    Before ending my blog, i must say Kishore was always there in 50s and 60s. Indian music will not compete without him in that era too. There are many brillaint execution from Kishore.

  562. 562
    ashu Says:

    Pls. bear with me, There are many typing mistake in my prev. blog.

  563. 563
    Sudip Says:

    Ashu wrote:
    “You asked me how many MDs prefer Kishore. There are many names like
    - RDB
    - KA
    - Bappi Lahiri
    - Rajesh Roshan
    Above names which i mentioned were 100% fond (they are biased) of Kishore. In case of Rafi, i could remember only 3 name who are 100% fond of Rafi…They are..
    - Nausad
    - O P Nayyar
    - Madan Mohan”

    WRONG!

    1. Kalyanji Anandji falls in the category who did not have any particular preference. If at all, their favourite singer was Mukesh. Rafi sang around 182 songs for KA and Kishore sang 280. Of these a good number were recorded after Rafi’s death. Does not look like a straightforward preference to me!

    2. Kalyanji Anandji chose singers based on actors. They chose Rafi for Shashi Kapoor (ever since the JJPK days), and Kishore for Amitabh, Dev Anand…Did anyone expect KA to choose Rafi to sing in Don for Amitabh or in Muqaddar Ka Sikander? Interestingly the same Ashu thinks RDB chose Rafi in Teesri Manzil because of Shammi only..Dichotomous and inconsistent argument..

    3. Ashu mentioned Rajesh Roshan (who had some good songs with Rafi too) but conveniently forgot his dad who was a much, much better music director (Rajesh Roshan is hardly considered Baap Ka Beta).. With the “better” Roshan, Rafi was always the #1 singer.

    That leaves only RDB and Bappi. Bappi, to me does not count when it comes to good songs. Jaidev in 1 film (Hum Dono) had more good songs than Bappi gave in his lifetime.

  564. 564
    dipak Says:

    As a Kishore fan I have to say that Rafi was the King followed by Kishore wheather you take voice range ,ability or difficult compositions..even if you go by number songs recorded .Kishore looked up to Rafi (so did menna Dey and Mahender Kapoor).Kishore even offered songs that he could sing well as Rafi .Even if we go by number hero and the life span of singing Rafi again comes out top.However we did need Kishore to complete with Rafi as Rafi had no clear rivals for 20 years.Finally Rafi did manage to sing some fine songs in 1970`s…when Rafi Died Kishore commented only he know what a great loss it was it Film Music Industry.

  565. 565
    Sudip Says:

    Ashu:
    You also thought Asha sang better than Rafi in “Aaja aaja main hoon pyar tera”.. I wouldn’t debate that.. If at all to me it was marginal.. But overall, in his entire career Rafi was superb in duets. He was always the dominant voice in duets and was famous for his “late entry” even if he had two lines to sing..
    Case in point:
    -Late sang two lines in “Tu Ganga KI mauj”. It had no effect on the overall song.. Rafi just sang a few words in “Chalo dildaar chalo”-it changed the entire mood of the song. There are hundreds of duets where Rafi was dominant ( a gentle dominance without a dominance in amplitude). let me cite few of the famous ones:

    1. Deewana Hua Badal (even if my mother sang in place of Asha, it would not have made any difference).
    2. Abhi na jao chodkar
    3. Yeh dil tum bin lagta nahin
    4. Aaja teri yaad aayi (excellent late entry..)
    5. Patta patta bota boota

    Visit the youtube videos for these songs. You will find entries only about Rafi, as if these are solos.

    This forced Dada Burman to choose Manohar for “Lootey koi manka nagar” in Abhimaan.. This was the turning song in the movie which caused the rift between Amitabh and Jaya..And he could not have chosen a male singer who could match the female voice.

  566. 566
    Vipul Says:

    where was KK till 1969? Why he was not prefered by many MD’s.
    KK’s fan think that KK was best because he did not take any classical training.
    Who stopped him from taking classical training? He had enough money and time. So please do not say that he was able to sing w/o any classical training and so he was best.
    KK lacked versatility like Rafi. I have never or hardly heard KK’s clasical, ghazals, bhajans, patriotic songs, folk songs, quawallis. He was not given such songs because all MD’s (including RD) felt that KK was not suitable for those songs.

  567. 567
    Dhani Ram Says:

    I would like response or observations on a few points and questions:

    Hundreds of movies with superb music were made between 1950 and 1965.Where was Kishore then?

    From 1950 to 1965,top singers of the film industry like Rafi,Mukesh,Mahendra etc were in the prime of their lives.They were young men with youthful voices.Kishore was also their contemporary.In late sixities,all these singers were past their prime;they were in late middle age.An artist is at his best in his prime from where he begins to decline.Where was Kishore in his prime when Rafi reigned supreme?

    Kishore was 58 when he died.Most of his songs were sung when he was past 50 or at least 45.What was wrong with his voice in his prime that the MD’s shunned him?

    Rafi’s voice had flattened when he entered his fiftieth year,Mukesh’s staled and Kishore’s cracked after a short blaze.

    What is good music?Was Sehgal a great singer? If he was,why are songs of Mukesh,Talat and Rafi closer in spirit to the trend set by him and why doesn’t Kishore attain that level?However,if Sehgal type music is not palatable to Kishorians,why did Kishore himself had such a high regard for Sehgal?

    There are two songs that celebrate life:Suhaana safar aur yeh mausam hasin (Mukesh) and Zindagi ik safar hai suhaana(Kishore).Which is better and why?

    Shamshad Begum,Suraiya,Mubarak Begum,Noor Jahaan had varied voices.Rafi matched up to them in scores of duets.Name the duets sung by Kishore with them.He,like Rafi,was their contemporary.Even Mukesh sang with all of them.

    Why is Kishore’s ascendancy synchronimous with overall deterioration of cultural standards in our country?

    What will you say about the music of an era when a howl like Tum kya jaano /Muhabbat kya hai grunted by RD became popular?If that is music ,then music had better shut up.

    Both Mukesh and Rafi were given National award.Why not Kishore?

    Rafi’s mother tongue was Punjabi.He sang for almost all Punjabi films made in his life time.In fact,his are the best Punjabi film songs.He had nobody to match him.I have read on this site only that he sang Bengali songs also.That is versatility and predominance,barging into another’s territory.I have never heard any Punjabi song sung by Kishore.Why is it so?

    Look at these songs:Na kisi ki aankh ka noor hun{Bahadur Shah Zafar’s ghazal(is there anything remotely equivalent in Kishore’s repertoire?)},Vrindavban ka Krishan Kanhaiya sab ki aankhon kaa tara(how about Kishore?),Ai watan ai watan teri rahon pe hum,apni jaan tak ki baazi lagaa jayenge,Bari der bhai Nand lala teri raah takein brij baala,Parvar digaare aalam tera hi hai sahaara,tu Hindu banega na Mussalman banega,insaan ki aulad hai insaan banega.It is an endless list of songs in all genres.If one listens only to Rafi,one gets complete and full experience of music.Kishore didn’t add anything that didn’t exist before him.We can think of Hindi film music without Kishore Kumar without missing anything essential.Can we do that with Rafi?

    Jesudas,who is regarded as the greatest singer in South India and is famous for his devotional songs,adores Rafi,so do Mehandi Hassan,Gulam Ali,Nusrat etc.Why don’t any stalwarts of equivalent stature have such regard for Kishore?

    Above all I wish a debate on what is music and want a response on the following:

    Ravi Shankar and Bismillah khan are two giants of the world of music.There is nobody like them.Do we agree that what they have produced is of the highest order?If so,whose songs are closer in spirit to their music,Rafi’s or Kishore’s?But if we don’t regard their music,then we are debating only cacophany.

    Comparing Rafi and Kishore is comparing the incomparables and makes no musical sense.

  568. 568
    xxx Says:

    dhani ram sahab,,

    comparisons are always there when there is competition, and im agree d u true classes like pt shiv kumar sharma, pt hari prasad chaurasia, pt jasraj always appreciated rafi,,

    kk himself accepted that rafi sahab was far more superior than him,,

    no one can beat rafi…

    now regarding your comment—- “” What will you say about the music of an era when a howl like Tum kya jaano /Muhabbat kya hai grunted by RD became popular?If that is music ,then music had better shut up”"”"

    i beg to differ,, bcoz it was rd’s versatality,, rdb was only versatile genious happened after shankar jaikishan,,,

    rdb single handedly made kk most sought after singer of 70s,, he was outstanding talent among his cotemporaries…

    now i wud like to add one more point that among the classes like various esteemed music schools of delhi, among the true maestros like pt shiv kumar sharma, pt hariprasad chaurasia….. in short among d classes these maestros are extremely popular–rafi ji,naushad ji, dada burman, madan ji, roshan ji & of course rahul dev burman,,, infact his later work like mera kuch samaan, khali hath sham aayi hai are very popular in classes,, im telling you the scenario of ncr(delhi,gzb,noida,gurgaon)…

    as i dn know much abt masses & commercial aspects but its a well known fact that the world wide popularity of rafi sahab is second to none…

  569. 569
    ashu Says:

    Dear Dipak and Sudip,
    Kishore was very much there in 50s and 60s, and if you bother abt great songs in percentage wise then kishore always ahead of Rafi in those time too.
    Why you talk abt rafi aftr 76, not kishore before 69?
    Rafi was reached to top and fall, that’s why he become reason for debate in later 70s era.
    His graph was like this..
    60s….Move upward
    early 70s….Move downward
    later 70s…..Consistent, but not there as it was in 60s

    Now let’s analyse Kishore’s career
    60s…consistent as per his singing
    later 60s(especially 65 onward)….Moving upward
    70s, 80s——-Moving upward and upward

    I think i can give better example—
    I hope everybody know Sourav Ganguly…..He was very successful in late 90s and till 2004, his career started declining since 2005, and he was out of team. Again he come back with full bang (like Rafi in 76), since he was popular (already on top) earlier, he become an object for media and his fans saying he is still same sourav, but everyone will agree to me that that is not a case. He has passed his golden days. Same is applicable in case of Rafi.

    My dear friends, If you ask me specifically abt one particular personality, i will definately appraise his achievement, and if the asked personality is my ideal then i will say lot more abt him. This paragraph is in the context of Yesudas talking abt Rafi. I have seen one interview from SPB and somebody asked him abt his personal favorites, quickly he responsed Ghantsala, Kishore, Rafi and Lata.

    People who are classically trained, it is defficult for them to accept Kishore as icon who surpassed Rafi (runing alone in the race and defeated when he got competition).

    Dhani Ram, as ur name suggest u looks quite old guys (thought u talk logically but disappointed), You asked for similar songs (bahadur shah zafar) from Kishore. This is really funny.
    We are talking here on the basis of what they have delivered. my dear friend, I am sure if people would have approached him with those style of songs undoubtely he could have done justice to these songs.
    Rafians always talked abt Qawaali, Ghazal and blah blah. Do you know any MDs approached kishore with this kind of request.
    It is like this..Sanjeev Kumar had played almost all characters in his life and almost acted three times of amitabh movies, but why people said amitabh is more verstaile, because whatever Amitabh has deliverd so far that is incomparable like KISHORE.

  570. 570
    ashu Says:

    Dear Sudip:
    Here what u wrote:

    WRONG!

    1. Kalyanji Anandji falls in the category who did not have any particular preference. If at all, their favourite singer was Mukesh. Rafi sang around 182 songs for KA and Kishore sang 280. Of these a good number were recorded after Rafi’s death. Does not look like a straightforward preference to me!

    2. Kalyanji Anandji chose singers based on actors. They chose Rafi for Shashi Kapoor (ever since the JJPK days), and Kishore for Amitabh, Dev Anand…Did anyone expect KA to choose Rafi to sing in Don for Amitabh or in Muqaddar Ka Sikander? Interestingly the same Ashu thinks RDB chose Rafi in Teesri Manzil because of Shammi only..Dichotomous and inconsistent argument..

    3. Ashu mentioned Rajesh Roshan (who had some good songs with Rafi too) but conveniently forgot his dad who was a much, much better music director (Rajesh Roshan is hardly considered Baap Ka Beta).. With the “better” Roshan, Rafi was always the #1 singer.

    My reply:
    If somebody like Kishore, not Rafi then he is not considered “Baap Ka beta”. Really funny. I am sorry but it shows ur taste.
    KA was freed to take Rafi in “DON” if they thought Rafi could have executed the song with same passion and energy they expected. By god grace, they knew that Rafi can’t deleived these songs better than Kishore. But i am sure nobody forced them to use Kishore, and fyi this movie came after 76 :) (Rafi got national award and nominated for AAA…thanks to RDB and LP). Kishore sang for 280 songs under KA and all songs came after 69s. KA selected Kishore for dharmendra, and if you know Rafi sang majority of dharmendra’s songs before 70s.
    My dear friend, i am still firm with my words…RDB choses Rafi in Teesari Manzil because
    - He was voice for SHammi
    - He was top most singer

    Dear Sudip, you have mentioned couple of great songs and asked me to listen in Youtube. I would like to tell you, all songs i have in my collection. My fav is “PATTA PATTA BUTA BUTA”. I think tis is great composition by LP.
    In same line i would like to add my another fav.
    - Ye dil tum bin kaha lagta nahi (Rafi and Lata, both are superb)

    Abt Abhimaan song “Lute koi mana ka ..” Let me clear ur baseless an d imaginary point:
    This song was supposed to sing by Rafi, due to some problem it was dubbed by Manhar. Finaly everybody liked it and they planned to keep this song as it is in the movie. There is a song “Teri bindiya re …” sung by Rafi and Lata, after this song actor DAVID told Asrani that Jaya is better singer than Amitabh. Please see this movie if you don’t trust my word.

  571. 571
    xxx Says:

    mr.ashu ji,,

    1– no doubt kk was amazing comedian, infact d best comedian(i rate him over mehmood & johny walker,, how superbly he acted in padosan!! mehmood & sunil halted d shooting aftr 2 days as kishore was stealing every scene from dem)…

    2– kk was gr8 artist,, superb actor, superb comedian, nice singer, nice md, nice lyricist as well..

    3– iam agree wd sudip,, rajesh roshan never came under saying— “like father like son”….

    4– now as a classical music lover & classical music student i consider rafi sahab much much much better singer dan kk,, also if we consider class & mass appeal of these maestros than there is no doubt in my mind that rafi shab is far more popular & acclaimed in true classes,, now mass appeal of kk was also gr8 but i think rafi sahab’s world wide popularity is more than his contemps….

    5– kk became most sought after in early 70s only coz of gr8 rd burman, he prefferd his good frnd kk over odr singers,, & wat i believe many times his selection was wrong..

    6–kk was also a die hard rafian and many times kk accepted that rafi sahab was far away from him…

    7– it doesnt mean that rafi sahab is not popular amongst western music lovers,, i know many guys in my college & from many esteemed music schools of delhi,, rafi sahab & rahul dev burman are two most popular from the maestros of yesteryears(amongst western music lovers)…

    8– now if we consider classic music lovers & various guni kalakars like pt.shivkumar sharma, pt.hariprasad chaurasia…. always praised these maestros:::
    >rafi sahab
    >naushad ji
    >sachin dev burman
    >madan mohan
    >roshan
    >shankar-jaikisan
    >rahul dev burman……

    9– my humble advice to you that plz go for classical music,, as being an indian we shud respect our heritage, & im sure u will change ur mind for rafi sahab…classical music is most divine music,, even beatles(no 1 band till date) appreciated dis music a lot & found dis music most divine form of music,, and u also must be knowing that maestros like pt.jasraj, pt.shiv kumar sharma(and many odrs) are far more popular than sonu, sanu, udit, himmesh or whomsoever…

    10– i cant reside everywhere so im telling you abt the scenario of ncr region,, but its a well known truth that rafi sahab’s world wide popularity is more than his contemps…..

    11– all these views are my personal,, not imposing myself into anybody,, i appologise if some one hurts….

    12– take care….

  572. 572
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu: let’s keep it short and simple: 16/25 of top songs on Binaca Geet Mala Charts are Rafi’s in May 1980 (before his death). You still maintain he wasn’t back on top commercially? :lol)

  573. 573
    ashu Says:

    I read somebody mentioning Pt. Shiv and Hari.
    If you guys remember, first movie of Shiv Hari is “SILSILA” released in 1981, couple of songs recorded when Rafi alive. Kishore sang majority of songs.
    Now, You people can argue Kishore was there becuase Amitabh acted in that movie, so i have another example…
    Fasle …actor Sunil Dutt
    Rest of their projects released after Kishore’s death.

  574. 574
    Sudip Says:

    Ashu:
    First of all, do you in the heart of hearts think Rajesh Roshan was as good as his dad in terms of class (not commercial success)? Anyway my point was not to compare the two Roshans. I was just trying to point out that you missed out the senior Roshan..

    Secondly, lets get the 1969 figure out of our head. 1969 marked the rise of Kishore, sure. But 1969 did not mark the demise of Rafi.. Till 1971 and maybe part of 1972, it was head-to-head. Rafi’s curve was going down, Kishore’s was going up, but in terms of absolute commercial hits it was absolutely a tie. Gora Aur Kaala, Dharti, Aaya Sawan Jhoom ke, Khilona, Heer Ranjha, Talash, The Train, Mehboob Ki Mehndi, Pyar Ka Mausam, Do Raaste, Dastak all released in the post-Aradhana period (I am not sure of Pyar hi Pyar and Chirag).
    Even in 1973 Rafi delivered the best song of the year (possibly one of the best songs of all time): “Tum jo mil gaye ho”. In Samjhauta (1973), under KA composition, Rafi and Kishore were given an even number of songs, but Rafi clearly won (you can argue tastes are personal, but one cannot dispute the popularity of “Badi dooor se” vis-a-vis Samjhauta Gham o se karlo”)..
    The two years where Kishore essentially sent Rafi into oblivion were 1974 and 1975. Barring a few movies like Wapas, Rafi was hardly visible.
    Lot of people mark HKKN as Rafi’s comeback. I think it was Dharam Veer. LP realized the only way they could match up to the RD-KK combo was to create a combo of their own and hence we saw the string of LP-Rafi hits between 1976 and 1980.
    It is glad that you mentioned Abhimaan. In “Teri bindiya re” because of the anecdote that you mentioned Rafi specially toned down. It is easily observable in the song. You can check out the comments in youtube (and I assure you those comments are not mine :-))
    You also mentioned KA and Dharmendra. As far as Dharmendra and Feroz Khan were concerned, KA was split between Kishore and Rafi (maybe little more towards Kishore). Till 1971 (again post-Aradhana) it was primarily Rafi. I think one of the most underrated songs was “Dil to dil hai” (Kab Kyoon aur Kahan), the interludes of which was repeated by KA in Don. Even in 1980s Rafi sang for Dharmendra in Professor Pyarelal. I think “Tere Seewa na kiska banooga” was one of the best duets of the 1980s. I can name more songs-but I agree Kishore delivered more hits for Dharmendra under Kalyanji Anandji.

  575. 575
    Sudip Says:

    Addition to my last post:
    ——————————

    I missed Caravan and Roop Tera Mastana as Rafi dominated chartbusters in the ’69-71 period.

    Coming to Kalyaji-Anandji, Rafi in spite of being a gentle and non-controversial being, was fighting several gangs with vested interests in the 70s. One of them was the “Saffron” brigade led by Mr. Bharat Manoj Kumar. The b*******, ungrateful as he was towards Rafi’s contribution to his stardom in countless movies went the Mahendra Kapoor way (now don’t tell me MK was a better singer than Rafi). The “saffron” camp included B.R. Chopra, a well-known Rafi hater and was backed by the Kalyanji Anandji duo, open admirers of the clan.

    //

  576. 576
    ashu Says:

    Mr. xxx

    I respect ur view from bottom of my heart. I never considered Rafi ias classical singer, he was playback and people know him as playback singer not as classical singer.
    If you really talking abt classical, then i prefer to listen Pt. bhisen Joshi and my fav. pt. Jasraj.
    I listen lots of Hindi movies songs which means i am listening to playback singers, but my classical taste are different, and i meant it different from Playback.
    I am really surprised to read you rafians exaggerated Rafi’s worldwide popularity. Is he only famous? My dear rafians, He is among few who are worldwide popular includes Kishore, sitting ontop of list.
    My dear friends, How can you measure popularity?
    My anlasyses on measuring popularity …
    Kishore left us 20 yrs. ago, and recently sony started program on him (not talking abt quality of program). Now i will not surprise to see any new musical program on Rafi. And FYI, this program is not started by any kishore fans or his relative. It started by entertainment media who want to make money on behalf of me. Do you need any other proof for pupularity?

  577. 577
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend Manish,

    Can you send all songs from Binaca from 75 onwards? I have question for you..If there are so many hits why Rafi managed to win 1 award (thanks to RDB).
    Though 70s was completely swing with Kishore wave, Mukesh managed to beg 2 filmfare award. Here is details for you:
    ———————————————————-
    1980 – Yesudas(Dada), 1979 – Kishore(Don), 1978 – Rafi(HKSKN),1977 – Mukesh (Kabhi Kabhi), 1976 – Kishore(Amanush), 1975 – Mahendra Kapoor(Roti Kapda aur Makaan), 1974 – Narendra Chanchal(Bobby), 1973 – Mukesh (Be-imann), 1972 – Manna Dey(Mera naam joker), 1970 – Kishore(Aradhana)
    ————————————————–

    This is correct data…

  578. 578
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend Manish,

    Here is list of topmost songs in Binaca Geet Mala:
    http://www.bollywoodsoundtracks.com/html/binacageetmala.htm

  579. 579
    ashu Says:

    My dera friend Sudip,

    Which chartbuster you are talking abt? If you are considering Binaca GeetMa, then i must tell you in 70 or 71 (not sure abt year), five kishore’s songs was there in top six songs, sixth one was from Naya Zamana (sung by Lata)

    I don’t understand one thing why you guys become abusive if somebody don’t have similar taste as you. Manoj kumar is fond of Mukesh and MK, it doesn’t mean Rafi was lesser to Mukesh and MK…Pls. don’t get abusive and learn to respect others like or come back with proper analysis.

    Abt “Abhimaan”, Rafi never toned down. I feel he sung this song as good as Lata. And why should i go with Youtube, i know people construct or manipulate story as per their like and dislike. So i always go with my instinct.

    Sudip,
    FYI Dharam Veer released after HKSKN, so Rafi came in the imelight after HKSKM and AAA, not Dharam veer. Kishore sang one song with Lata in Dharam veer. You will surprised to know that that song became chartbuster for year.
    “Hum Banzaron ki baat mat puchho ji”…Superb Song, and Great Composition.

    On LP and Rafi Combo, LP was only musician who maintained a great balance between Rafi and Kishore in 70s. I feel “Samjhouta ghamo se kar lo” is more catchy and better composed than “Badi dur se aaye hai”. I personally like Kishore’s version.
    Did you guys anlayse one thing?
    Why most of the non hero songs went to Rafi, which was not the case in 60s
    Songs are :-
    – Deewane hai deewane ko …Zanjeer
    – Ruthe rub ko mana aasan hai ….Majboor
    – Badi dooe se aaye hai….Samjouta
    – one song from Kunwara Baap
    and many more…

  580. 580
    xxx Says:

    ashu ji,,

    for me rafi sahab was gr8st playback singer wd excellent classical vocal skills,, he was well trained under the bade gulam ali khan saab,, accn to me he was nice classical singer too,, he was trained under patiala gharana gayaki,, and juss look out how amazingly & melodiously he utilised it,,,,,,, songs like “man tarpat” “madhuban mein radhika” becoming most preferable bandishes in music schools of 2day…

    bade gulam ali khan once said that “guru gud ka gud reh gya aur chela mishri ban k nikal gya”

    im glad to know that you like pt.jasraj,, hope dat you know abt his high regards for rafi sahab & naushad ji..

    you mentioned abt dat tv show,, well dear ashu ji media is also hyping himmesh over jagjit singh, hariharan, ar rehman… does it mean himmesh is more popular??? every time hari haran’s & jagjit gazals comes silently & sells in a bulk,, more dan any of himmesh’s album,,

    media is also hyping western dance based shows(jhalak, nach baliye & all dat stuff),, does it mean dat classical dance is nowhere?? everybody know dat how much respect & attention indian classical dancers are getting world wide,, yaha k western dancers ko kon poochta hai bahar??…

    my point is simple,, media cant alwys b rite….

    naushad ji once said that his songs sell anually for a crore or more,, now tell me who was d leading playback singer under naushad’s music direction???

    my meter of measuing popularity is class & mass appeal of an artist…

    rafi sahab is dominating all d way(among d playback singers ),,, among d crores of classical music lovers & true classes,,,now among d masses both r popular(may b rafi sahab leading here also)…

    ashu ji , i think u ignoring d facts as u seems 2 b very much in lv wd kk’s voice… but i like kk very much coz of his artistic skills..

    aaj kal k comedians double meaining dialogs se hasate hain mgr kishore da apne humour se hasate the… half ticket is supeb example of his gr8 comic timing…

    ashu sir,, in terms of singing sab jaante hain ki rafi sahab jaisa doosra koi aaya nahi hai ab tak,, lagbhag sabhi guni kalakaro k yehi raye hai…

    even kk many times accepted rafi sahab’s superiorty ovr him,, kk was die hard sehgal fan & rafian as well(jaisa ki industry k log kehte hain)…

    i think rafi sahab was far more gr8 & far more divine frm any of his comtemps….

  581. 581
    Sudip Says:

    Ashu:
    The link shows only the Binaca Geetmala topper. People here are talking about the top 10 songs..

    You do not need to step out of this site to gauge Rafi’s popularity. The very fact there are tons of people trying to convince you (the only surviving member of the pro-KK) is a testimony of the fact..And bear in mind for the last 10 posts people have not moved out of the “post-1969″. That itself kicks of a healthy debate..If we start bringing Rafi’s golden years into the equation, have you thought what the final (in)equation will look like?

    The Sony program that you mentioned is a good one, albeit a frivolous program suited to Kishore’s entertaining “happy-go-lucky” persona.. We can similarly have “P is for Pancham” or “S for Sonu”…There is a certain “gravitas” about Rafi and Lata that everyone (including KK fans) are aware of.. That gravitas, that respect, do not lend themselves to “L is for Lata” or “R is for Rafi” type of programs. “Lata JI” and “Rafi SAAB’s” names are better associated with bigger things..

  582. 582
    Sudip Says:

    Ashu:
    “If you really talking abt classical, then i prefer to listen Pt. bhisen Joshi and my fav. pt. Jasraj.
    I listen lots of Hindi movies songs which means i am listening to playback singers, but my classical taste are different, and i meant it different from Playback.”

    -VERY SENSIBLE COMMENT.. I personally do not fall in the category of fans who think Rafi was a great classical singer. Like you my classical tastes are different.

    BUT… Rafi’s approach to singing itself was very CLASSICAL in nature…As opposed to Kishore whose approach was lighter. Let us take similar songs of similar moods/genre and comparable repute:

    1 a) Chingari koi bhadke
    1 b) Din dhal Jaye or Hum bekhudi mein

    None of these are pure classical songs..The way Rafi approached 1b) was very different from the way 1a was delivered. The great thing about 1a was Kishore’s voice, but was delivered flat and full-throated-there is no vocal artistry about it. 1b had murkiyas and subtle touches that make them songs of the Classes.

    2a) Woh shaam kuch ajeeb thi
    2b) Hui shaam unka khayal aa gaya

    2a is an excellent song, but again sung flat totally reliant on the golden voice that Kishore had. 2b goes beyond the vocal quality. The way Rafi modulates over “Khayal” in the antaras..

    3a) Dil aaj shayar
    3b) Kabhi khud pe

    Both have similar pitch transitions.. But we see lot of classical variations in 3b..

    Kishore’s voice was so bass dependent that it was not possible to bring these small undulations (murkiyas) into the delivery..

    As Suresh Wadkar says in http://youtube.com/watch?v=Nsbhron1bNM about Rafi. There is something divine in the rendition..That is the classical part I would talk about..

  583. 583
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu,

    Why did Rafi always sing for the non-hero? That’s not entirely true – he sang more songs & rendered more hits for Rishi Kapoor, Jeetendra, Vinod Khanna, and Dharmendra from 1970-1980. True – Kishore was the voice of Amitabh but Rafi had his hits too. Rafi could sing for non-heroes because his voice could very well suit just about anyone – Kishore’s trademark barritone could not. Rafi sang plenty for both heroes & non-heroes so I don’t see much validity to your point. It just shows his versatility for the many actors.

    You cleverly sidestepped my question about the Binaca Geet Mala. See it for yourself – in 1980, 6 out of the top 10 are Rafi’s – including the #1 song from Sargam. On a monthly chart, in May of 1980, 16 out of the top 25 were Rafi’s! There’s no denying that Rafi was just as popular as Kishore (if not more) at that time.

    Ashu – you talked about HKSKN again so I will address it for the last time. What Aradhana was to Kishore – Laila Maju was to Rafi. They both set the stage for the events to come. Laila Majnu was a musical blockbuster that marked Rafi’s grand “comeback”. My opinion is that Rafi was going to win the award in 1977 whether it was Kya Hua Tera Waada or the immensely popular Pardah Hai Pardah Hai.

    Interestingly – Kishore was #1 on Binaca Geet Mala in 1959. Clearly he saw success in his singing career – he always wanted to be a singer first and actor second. He had his exposure to the public but it didn’t last as the top singer in that time. If he was to make it as a TOP singer in the 1960s – he should have been able to. But it wasn’t to be during that time. So yes he was busy on his acting career – but only because he wasn’t top singer in 1960s because the music styles were not in phase with his immense singing talent. Kishore was ready to pack his bags and leave in late 1960s – because he wasn’t making it as a singer.

    No doubt Kishore was great. But Rafi was Rafi – beyond comparison!

  584. 584
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Even in 1974-1975, Rafi was NOT thrown into oblivion. He was always present on the charts. What amazes me is that his Saj Rahe Gali Ama from Kunwara Baap was #5 in 1975 – ahead of Kishore’s same song in the movie (which IMO was better). While Rafi’s singing part was beautiful – a lot of the song was errr trash. But it was immensely popular. People flocked for that kind of composition – it makes me wonder how average the musical values / trends were at that time. I do want to clarify myself: clearly Kishore was still a very successful singer in 1950s & 1960s (he had a #1 song in 1959) and had some immortal gems. But despite that- RELATIVE to Rafi – he wasn’t progressing. Kishore was great – but when you start comparing someone to Rafi – they don’t match up to the maestro.

  585. 585
    ashu Says:

    Manish,
    Mere dost, I respect ur viewi. I don;t have any issue you admire Rafi. But what i don;t like you guys keep saying Rafi is greatest.
    Do we really require to propel any great legends as greatest?
    Kishore fans never bother abt greatness, they know who is great. I write many blog here to make you aware of real facts, i am sure you people already known but deny to accept.

    Sudip..
    u wrote

    you mentioned abt dat tv show,, well dear ashu ji media is also hyping himmesh over jagjit singh, hariharan, ar rehman… does it mean himmesh is more popular??? every time hari haran’s & jagjit gazals comes silently & sells in a bulk,, more dan any of himmesh’s album,,

    My reply:
    i m very sad to know this. No media ever projected that Himesh is better than Jagjit. My dear friend, if himesh stay in music for next minimum 20 yrs, then we can talk abt him. Otherwise there is no point in talking abt him.
    If you are comparing Himesh with Kishore, then i am very sorry to know abt taste of music. Media projecte him popular but not best singer, whereas kishore was project as good singer before 68, but people and media started comparing him with Rafi after “TUM bin Jaao kahan” song where Kishore completely surpassed Rafi. Even people started saying Kishore is better than Rafi. Is it the same case with Himesh?

    Sudip,
    My reply abt ur analyses on couple of Kishore and afi’s song.
    First of all, If u r saying “Chingari was flat” then i must say pls. get some musical training. Talk to some genuine musician and ask abt this song and vocal artistry. My dear friend, one great thing abt kishore is, he made song looks very easy, but ask artist who sing this song. They will tell you how difficult it is to sing.

    Here what u wrote:
    2a) Woh shaam kuch ajeeb thi
    2b) Hui shaam unka khayal aa gaya
    2a is an excellent song, but again sung flat totally reliant on the golden voice that Kishore had. 2b goes beyond the vocal quality. The way Rafi modulates over “Khayal” in the antaras..
    3a) Dil aaj shayar
    3b) Kabhi khud pe

    Both have similar pitch transitions.. But we see lot of classical variations in 3b..

    Dil aaj Shayar, is one of the most difficult song. I have never seen somebody attempting this song. pitch and voice modulation is superb. Do you expect better range than this..Listen this line carefully.
    “Leeeeeeekin lagaya hai jo daaaav hamne wo jeet kar aayenge hi”.
    As you cleverly said, Kishore and Rafi approached were difficult. My dear friend, that is the real difference between them.
    Give Rafis’ songs to any trained singer, he will execute those songs in same way(may be not 100%, but near to it), but same is not true in case of Kishore’ song.
    That is what Kishore.

  586. 586
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend,

    I never sidelined ur blog. I already replied list of Binaca Geet Mala chartbuster. I differ on “Laila Majnu”. Songs are great, but i can’t excite to listen it again and again….I can’t listen it more than once. I don’t rate these songs very high except one from Lata…

    …If you are talking abt Classical singer, then i can argue on taan, nakhj and other phase of the songs.
    But here we are talking abt playback singing.
    According to me, playback singing is singing which touches common man heart with bang. Common man should relate himself with the song in first hearing itself. It should not be like today where u listen one song 100 times and still not able to understand.
    Kishore and Rafi, had these capability to send their vocal harkat to common man, and in the area i will always rate Kishore better than Rafi.

    Regd Suresh Wadkar interview, Before conculding interview he said any music program will be incomplete without mentioning Kishore;s name and he gone ahead with telling one story during “BEMISAAL” song where he told abt kishore versatality. People like Rafi, Manna Dey, MK, Suresh Wadkar, Sonu Nigam are/were hesitate to accept Kishore’s popularity.
    There was great interview by Manna Dey where he spoke abt recording of one song from “AMEER GAREEB”. This song(Mere Pyale Mein..) is qawaali, Manna dey though he can dominate Kishore by some classical vocal and even Laxmikant from LP asked Kishore to follow manna dey. Kishore clearly told Laxmi that he will sing in different style, Laxmi did not like but what he could do, he just gone ahead with recording. Manna Dey and Laxmikant, both agreed that Kishore’s style of singing is better in the same song. Kishore steals the show completely.
    This has been told by Manna Dey.
    I mean to say there would not be any difference if Kishore would have followed Manna Dey in same style.
    Genious creates own path, they don’t follow others path.

    SUDIP…Manna Dey complaint RDB for not choosing him for “Chingari koi Bhadke” and “Ye kya hua”.. I am sure Manna dey could have sing this song with more classical touch. Pls. answer it with honesty, will this song reached to the same height where it is now…

    My answer is “NO” and “NEVER”

  587. 587
    ashu Says:

    Great blog by Sanjeev..
    Reason for posting this blog to let you aware of kishore’s fav.
    He respect Rafi, but his fav. were somebody else.
    ——————————————————
    Yaadon ki Baarat
    Kishoreda means a lot to me. Evenings become mine very rarely, and when they do, I like to dedicate them to Kishoreda. The only times I interact with him, laugh with him, cry with him and get philosophical with him, are when I switch on my age-old tape-recorder and listen to him sing. I still consider Im not qualified to write about such a great man. But I sincerely want him to adorn my blog. The best way I could do it is by having a piece written on Kishoreda by a music lover – a superb singer himself. Join me as I walk with VG Muralikrishnan down memory lane where Kishoreda’s voice still reverberates. Incidentally, let me add Muralikrishnan is today a known name in Malayalam filmdom.

    He never attended parties. He loved watching horror films. He played with his toy spooks. He made friends with the trees in his garden; he talked to them. And when he was free, he sang. Kishore Kumar Ganguly saw life as a foolish game, wherein rules where made to be broken.
    “In this avaricious world, every creative person is bound to be lonely. How can you deny me that right?” he asked. Yet, he married four times. He could not read the notations. Nor could he name more than three classical singers without prompting. Yet, he sang as if he was possessed. He complained of his filmmakers “who know nothing”. But when Satyajit Ray offered him him a role in his famous comedy, ‘Parash Pathar’, he literally ran away.”I was so scared,” he said. He loved to live life in his own way. As with all other great men, it was contradictions that made Kishore Kumar.
    When he arrived in Bombay, Kishore Kumar Ganguly had four idols: K.L. Saigal, Marlon Brando, Boris Karloff and Topol of ‘Fiddler on the Roof’ fame. His greatest wish was to meet the legendary Kundan Lal Saigal. He also wanted to be a singer.
    He arrived in Bombay as “the younger brother of the great Dadamoni, Asok Kumar”. And soon, he found himself doing bit roles as an actor. He hated acting but was too scared to tell his elder brother. Singing was confined to the bathroom, and Kishore hit the silver screen with a new brand of comedy that bordered on insanity. He tried his best to shrug off the actor’s robes. He troubled his directors to the ends of the world — He filled his eyes with romance while on an action routine. He looked into the eyes of his ‘lover’ like a monster on the prowl. The more he tried to escape, the more he was loved. And he became the second biggest draw after Dilip Kumar. He was so busy that Mohammed Rafi was assigned to sing for him in ‘Sharaarat’.

    The comic roles he played in films such as ‘Half Ticket’, ‘Chalti ka Naam Gaadi’, ‘Padosan’ and ‘Jhumroo’ made him popular but he remained trapped in an image that did not project his real self. This forced him into fimmaking: In films such as ‘Door Gagan ke Chaon Mein’ (1964) and ‘Door ka Rahi’ (1971), Kishore did what he always wanted too do — sing “sad songs and do serious roles”.
    Nobody was sure who the real Kishore Kumar was. Not even the man himself. He kept the world guessing. He acted, he sang, he wrote lyrics, he composed tunes, he directed films…
    As a singer, he began by imitating Saigal. In life, he imitated none.
    The Kishore, who we remember today, is only a fragment of the phenomenon he actually was. As was his wish, Kishore is still remembered for his recorded voice than his onscreen pranks. After a long wait of almost three decades, Kishore struck gold as a singer. Rejected by almost all major music directors in the dawn of his career, Kishore found his mentor in S. D. Burman and a lifelong friend in R. D. Burman. He had no guru who could teach him the nuances of music. But when he sang, his voice transformed the song into an emotional entity. Arguably, Kishore was the only Indian playback singer, who acted out his songs. His renditions were earthy, if not ethereal. Constantly bullied by the music critics of his age, Kishore was looked upon as a symbol of irreverence that was considered the hallmark of Hindi movies of the Seventies. But he outlived the critics, and goes on yodelling in the hearts of thousands of admirers the world over.
    Kishore Kumar constantly complained about the world he found himself in. “In this crazy world, only the truly sane man appears to be mad,” he said, a few days before his death. He used to keep a skull in the bedroom, with red light emerging from its eyes, just to keep himself posted on “the futility of life”. He braved the emotional disasters in his life with the mind of a clown. The sadness, he invested in his songs. The world called Kishore Kumar “crazy”. He sang innumerable songs that carried his answer to the world. “Rote hue aate hain sab, hansta hua jo jaayega, woh muqaddar ka sikander kehlayega…!
    ——————————————————

  588. 588
    ashu Says:

    Here is link…RDb talks abt Rafi and Kishore.

    http://www.naachgaana.com/2008/01/05/rafi-wasnt-able-to-grasp-the-nuances%E2%80%A6-rd-burman/

  589. 589
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu wrote: “Give Rafis’ songs to any trained singer, he will execute those songs in same way(may be not 100%, but near to it), but same is not true in case of Kishore’ song.”

    Absolutely false. If this was true – there have been lots of trained singers before, during, and after Rafi. Why haven’t we had another Rafi as of yet? My friend, you’d be stretching the reasonable limits of subjectivity if you suggested a trained singer could render a song like Yahan Main Ajnabi Hoon, Yeh Mera Prem Patra, Ehsaan Tera Hoga with nearly the effect of Rafi. Because for Rafi it wasn’t just vocal technique or ability – it was his mastery of taan / harkatein as Lata Mangeshkar specifically addressed and what other posters have previously reported. He’d carefully stretch or pronounce each word with perfect emotion / feeling. Kishore could do it too but IN MY OPINION Rafi could perfectly express a wider repertoire of emotions (romantic mood immediately comes to mind) and was multi-faceted in that aspect. Interestingly this also addresses your second point – which many insiders in the industry such as Lata Mangeshkar and SDB would contradict. Why did SDB choose Rafi for the three solos of Guide? Maybe technically those songs weren’t the most challenging to sing – but they required the ability to perfectly express taan / harkatein – for which SDB felt Rafi was better suited than Kishore.

    Ashu wrote: “Kishore and Rafi, had these capability to send their vocal harkat to common man, and in the area i will always rate Kishore better than Rafi.”

  590. 590
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu – there are serious doubts / questions about the authenticity of the interview. It isn’t on tape and this interview conveniently appears 17 yrs from when it was “conducted” and long, long after both RDB & Rafi can verify the truthfulness. I’d be interested in contacting Shammi Kapoor about this. More importantly, RD Burman has made statements on TAPE that directly contradict those quotes. I find it hard to believe a musical genius like RDB would say those quotes and several of RDent fanatics feel the same. I know you’re going to say I’m just ignoring the truth or believing what I want to believe lol…but I try to be logical and truthful (no one can change the truth so accept it). I ask you to read this ANALYSIS (not saying the article is fact but analysis is sensible) and pay attention to RDB’s description:

    http://www.mohdrafi.com/meri-awaaz-suno/a-letter-to-raju-bharatan-on-rock-%e2%80%99n-roll.html

  591. 591
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu: Address this specifically – Binaca Geet Mala top 10 for year 1980

    1. Dafli waale dafli bajaa mere ghunghroo bulaate (rafi, lata)
    2. Meri umar ke naujawaanon dil na lagaana o deewaanon (kishore)
    3. Sheesha ho ya dil ho aakhir toot jaata hai (lata)
    4. (tie) Aap jaisa koi meri zindagi mein aaye to baat ban jaaye (nazia)
    4. (tie) Saawan ke jhoole pade tum chale aao (lata)
    4. (tie) Pardesiya yeh sach hai piya sab (kishore, lata)
    5. Koyal boli duniya doli samjho dil ki boli (rafi, lata)
    6. Laila main laila aisi hoon laila har koi chaahe (lata)
    7. Ai yaar sun yaari teri mujhe zindagi se (rafi, asha)
    8. Pal do pal ka saath hamaara pal do pal (rafi, asha)
    9. Teri rab ne bana di jodi too haan kar (rafi, asha)
    10. Simti hueen yeh ghadiyaan phir se na bikhar (rafi, lata)

    Score reads 6-2 in favor of Rafi who is also at #1. And you’re telling me Rafi wasn’t on top in 1980 (we could argue 1977-1980 but I’ll do 1980 for now). Do you need to see the May 1980 charts too?

  592. 592
    Manish Kumar Says:

    clarifications: when I say Rafi is #1 – I mean both Binaca Geet Mala with Daffliwale AND as a singer COMMERCERIALLY (nevermind musically – that was NEVER in doubt). 6-2!

  593. 593
    Manish Kumar Says:

    You brought up Tum Bin Jaoon Kahan – so let’s talk about that.

    First, it is a silly comparison because the moods were different (to compare a soulful rendition to a romantic rendition is to say an apple is better than an orage) and the songs were different too (yodelling being the primary & significant difference). If yodelling is what made a singer – then goats would be Gods. Luckily, Kishore was a great singer – not just a yodeller. Hear just the singing and Kishore’s is flat in comparisons to Rafi’s. Singing versus singing – Rafi was superior.

    Interestingly, Kishore had already rendered this song in Bengali 2 yrs prior and it was a big hit. This composition was designed FOR yoodleyee Kishore by his #1 composer – RD Burman. So of course Kishore would be at his best here and no weaknesses would be exposed. The composition did not take nearly full advantage of all that Rafi could offer. Surely an MD of RD’s talent was very very well aware of this. Despite that – many many people will feel the Rafi version was better (and many many people will feel the Kishore version was better).

    Interestingly, I am not even sure if Kishore’s version beat the Rafi version IN 1969 charts. Maybe 1970s when the wave was on – but 1969 – I’m not sure. I’d have to check the charts but even then – it is a small matter. Kishore fans make a big deal about this song – funny – cause it is the best that KK has to offer. A more fair comparison would be a more sophisticated song rendered by both singers like “Chalkaaye Jaam” from Mere Hamdam Mere Dost or lol a song like “Nafrat Ki Duniya’ that required multi-faceted emotions.

  594. 594
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Funny thing is – Mannade was deeply insulted when RD asked him to loose the “singing contest” to Kishore in Padosan. He protested it’d be silly for him to lose to a singer like Kishore. Mehmood the producer had the calm him down and assure him that he was better than Kishore. I just find that anecdote hilarious.

  595. 595
    ashu Says:

    Dear Manish,

    If we don’t have another Rafi, then do we have another Kishore. We can’t have another Rafi, kishore, Mukesh, Lata and Asha. They all are unique.
    Bhai mere, I don’t understand what u write …
    Earlier u said his song was there chartbuster more in quantity since 76. Now u published list of 80s, which has more songs. does it mean he is superior to anyone in 80s. You might not know, Rafi song was there in 81 and 82. Solo kishore was there on top :)
    Abt RDB interview, First of all, it is not fake. Same thing told by Asha in her interview on her last birthday, and it was telecast on all news channels. I myself watched that interview.
    FYI i already wrote abt it in my blog…

    Please read my words and try to understand…
    Many times I wrote Rafi was almost there in music industry during 70s, but it was HKSKN and AAA brought him in limelight again. But history witness that he never get the same position which he enjoyed in 80s.

  596. 596
    ashu Says:

    Dear friend Manish,

    My analyses on songs. I hope u watch singing competition on couple of channels. There are many classical trained singer who easily execute Rafi’s song brilliantly, but they fail to sing Kishore’s songs.
    For e.g.
    - Guy from Dubai …2nd runner up in SA RE GA MA PA
    - Abhas from VOI
    Above 2 name are good singers, and they executed classical song technically correct, but they fail to sing “WOH SHAAM KUCHH AJEEB THI” and”YE KYA HUA”.

    Please watch SA RE GA MA and VOI.

  597. 597
    ashu Says:

    Manish Mere dost,

    One shocking news for you…
    in 71…Here is the list of top 14 songs (I already mentioned sometime back in my blog)
    Kishore – 9, Rafi – 1, Manna Dey – 1, Asha – 2 (1 with Kishore), Lata – 1, MK – 1

    This was completely dominated by Kishore (Most songs are Solo)…

    If you don’t trust, then pls. feel free to visit this link:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaca_Geetmala_annual_list_1971

  598. 598
    ashu Says:

    There is correction in my 3rd last blog:
    It was
    Please read my words and try to understand…
    Many times I wrote Rafi was almost there in music industry during 70s, but it was HKSKN and AAA brought him in limelight again. But history witness that he never get the same position which he enjoyed in 80s

    It is 60s not 80s….
    Sorry abt it.

  599. 599
    ashu Says:

    What u wrote was 100% correct abt Padosan. Since Manna was respected as classical singer, and Kishore was not taken seriously by MDs during 50s and mid 60s (This movies release in 68-69). What Mehmood did is 100% correct, There is saying in HIndi…
    “Moika padne par Gadhhe ko bhi baap banana padta hai” so Mehmood did exactly what situation requires.
    Note: Intention behind this phrase is not to hurt anybody. I am sorry if i hurt anybody.

    Mere dost, i think u find this anecdote hilarious, but i find it pity. I think everybody know the end result of the song….Kishore emerged as a winner. Not only as singer but also as a performer. This has been openely acepted by Manna Dey.
    I was pity with Manna, because he undeestimated Kishore….

  600. 600
    ashu Says:

    my dear Manish ,
    you wrote:

    Despite that – many many people will feel the Rafi version was better (and many many people will feel the Kishore version was better).

    Interestingly, I am not even sure if Kishore’s version beat the Rafi version IN 1969 charts. Maybe 1970s when the wave was on – but 1969 – I’m not sure.

    My reply:

    Many people means only you rafians. Actual music lover and music knowlegable always admire Kishore especially in thi song, because there is variety. Rafi sang this song as any other song. Kishore made this song “SPECIAL”. That is a real difference between great and greatest.

    My dear friend, You will not be sure, but i am sure and 100% agree that Kishore’s version is much better than Rafi. I can’t compare singing because both songs singing style is different, and Kishore is far ahead of Rafi as far as playback concern.

  601. 601
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend Manish,

    Sorry to reply in multple blog.
    You wrote:

    A more fair comparison would be a more sophisticated song rendered by both singers like “Chalkaaye Jaam” from Mere Hamdam Mere Dost or lol a song like “Nafrat Ki Duniya’ that required multi-faceted emotions.

    Above songs are superb and greatly sung by Rafi. Chhalkaye jaam is real gem, DHarmendra did not act properly. I like “Chhalkaye jaam” and at the same time i like “Doston mere kisse ho gaye khatm saarey”. Later song was not very famous, but i am sure no singer could hav eexecuted this song better than Kishore.
    My dear friend, as i wrote in my previous blogs that you can’t compare singer based on their indivisual songs. You can’t compare 1:1.
    You can compare singer by asking them to sing one song and judge based on that. So according to me, you can’t judge Kishore and Rafi based on their indivisual songs as all are gem, but yes u can compare them in following song..

    - Tum bin jaao kaha
    - Hum premi prem karna jaane
    - Tumko khush dekhkar main bahut khush hua
    - Tera jalwa touba hai tera jalwa
    - Ek mahal maa chhamchham karti rahi dui shahazadi (completely surpass Rafi)
    - Jaanu meri jaan

    By the way i did not hear on Binaca Geet Mala….Did u count no. of hit songs in chartbuster? :)

  602. 602
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu – I wasn’t shocked at all with 1971. I always acknowledged that Kishore was #1 COMMERCIALLY from 1971-1976 (give or take). It was the Kishore wave. Songs that are forgotten today were very popular in that time. We also argued the mechanics behind it. But my point was that from 1977-1980 – Rafi was back to #1. Can you explain why it was 6-2 Rafi in 1980?

    It is true that Kishore was always a top singer after 1969 and that while according to me and the charts Rafi was #1 by late 70s – he was not the only one. He was not purely undisputed as he was in the 60s – Kishore was there. And there weren’t as many great MDs so we didn’t have nearly the same output in quality. But Rafi can’t be blamed for that – and it doesn’t mean that he was as high as any singer could be in the late 70s. He was.

    Maybe I’m the only one – but I listen to Rafi for 2 days, Kishore for a day, and then some Lata solos every now and then. I love Rafi & Kishore but after listening to them for a long time – I don’t enjoy them as much so I need a break with a new voice – whether it is Rafi, Kishore (not Lata because I hear her occasionally compared to other 2). But then I quickly return. That way I enjoy all singers. There are many who’ll admit they cannot listen for 4 hrs a day for 2 weeks straight the same singer. If this doesn’t apply to you – you are a minority (nothing wrong with that). So by 1977 – the Kishore break was over and people returned to the ultimate voice – Mohd Rafi. Kishore himself was great so he was also popular – but Rafi is Rafi.

  603. 603
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu wrote:

    “Many people means only you rafians. Actual music lover and music knowlegable always admire Kishore especially in thi song, because there is variety. Rafi sang this song as any other song. Kishore made this song “SPECIAL”. That is a real difference between great and greatest.

    My dear friend, You will not be sure, but i am sure and 100% agree that Kishore’s version is much better than Rafi. I can’t compare singing because both songs singing style is different, and Kishore is far ahead of Rafi as far as playback concern.”

    “Rafi sang this song as any other song” – that is true – and he sang it splendidly. To him, it was NOT a competition that KK fans have made it out to be. RD Burman took Rafi’s spool and gave it to Kishore to practice on (no problem with that – I enjoy listening to Kishore version too – glad to see Kishore do the best he could do) but it gets silly when you compare. So this song was just like any for Rafi as you correctly said – but for Kishore – it was COMPOSED to make him look his best – yoodlee Kishore!

    “I can’t compare singing because both songs singing style is different, and Kishore is far ahead of Rafi as far as playback concern.”

    Then why are you comparing lol?

    Kishore is far ahead of playback? Here’s a question to you – for which actors did Kishore give the most hits and for which actors did Rafi give the most hits TILL 1980 (not after)? It is hardly disputed that Rafi could modulate his voice to match the actor whereas Kishore could not (thanks to his special barritone) and the actors had to struggle to match to his voice. Dilip Kumar in Sala Mein to Sahab Bangaya is a fine example (and I agree with you – Dilip did not do justice to it – but he tried and couldn’t as Kishore’s voice is barritone and he didn’t have that). For Kishore, all I see is Amitabh & Rajesh. For Rafi – the list would be too long! Rafi was incomparably superior as playback singer with little limit.

  604. 604
    xxx Says:

    ashu ji,,

    plz dnt get so much confused as u hav mentioned my write up as mr.sudip’s…..

    well first of all i never compare kk wd himmesh as himmesh is nowhere against him,,

    i said that media is hyping himmesh over jagjeet & hariharan,, media is not praising but just hyping which doesnt mean himmesh is more popular,, juss mentioned all this to prove dat “media cant alwyas b rite”….

    and ashu ji its really unfair that u compairing renditions of voi, sa re ga ma guys wd those of rafi sahab’s….

    ashu sir, plz have some good taste of music,, as even mentors(more knowledgeble dan all of us) of those musical shows never dared to speak or think like this, as they all aware of the heights attained by rafi sahab in playback….

    as far as early 70s is concd,, rafi sahab was always there wd qualiity songs,,
    here are stats of 70-74

    kk-rafi
    1970: 47-131
    1971: 102-131
    1972: 137-95
    1973: 146-80
    1974: 137-83

    in terms of quantity margin is really very less,, but in terms of quality rafi sahab was alwys dre wd lp,rdb,sdb,mm,….

    how one can forget
    >tum jo mil gaye ho(wd mm)
    >mera mann tera pyasa(wd sdb)
    >gulabi aaakhen(wd rdb)
    >mujhe teri mohabat ka(duet song wd lp)
    >tum mjhe yun(wd sj)………

    also i consider 1969-74 period only as rise of kishore,, and major hand in dis rise was of rahul dev burman’s gr8 tunes….

    also i consider rafi sahab as gr8 coz of the late 40s, 50s & 60s where he rendered some truly gr8 songs wd truly gr8 maestros maestros like naushad, sj, sdb,roshan,mm,opn,ravi,jaidev,chitragupt…….kk was never d first choice of these magical mds ,, not even second or third(exept sdb) …

    my meter for measuring gr8ness is not binaca geet mala,, as in 60s many times mk songs were there in top 10,,when kk not even used to find place in top 20… it doesnt mean mk is better….

    i consider kk much better than mk….

    rafi sahab is greatest coz:::

    >his class appeal is just amazing,, also he is most famous playback singer among d crores of classical music lovers, he is also fav of some truly classical gems like pt.jasraj ji……

    >rafi sahab was also very popular among south gr8 artists like illaya raja, yesudas,, both admired rafi sahab a lot,, even many die hard yesudas fans from south admire rafi sahab among playback singers of bollywood…

    >among the bollywood music lovers,, no doubt kk is popular but rafi sahab is/was also popular among d masses,, his rock n rolls wd sj r still very much popular……

    >rafi sahab bagged higher number of evergreen songs in comparison to odrs,, specially from 50s & 60s which r still as melodious as they used to be….

    >rafi sahab proved himself in every genere of singing,,

    >and last but not least all his contmps(mukesh,manna,kishore) always showed their high regards for rafi sahab,, manna always accept rafiji’s supeiority over him,,
    kk also said once that “rafi sahab tak koi nahi pahuch sakta “….

    i think kishore da was really very nice human being,, never played any dirty politics against rafi sahab,, they both were gr8 frnds & admires of each odr….

  605. 605
    Vipul Says:

    http://www.screenindia.com/20020726/mcov2.html

    A very good article…..

  606. 606
    Vipul Says:

    Ashu saheb,
    Please tell us how many patriotic songs, Ghazals, Quwallis, Bhjans. Classical songs were sung by KK? Please mention those songs here.

    I am sure there will be a huge list of KK songs compared to much smaller or non exsitent list of Rafi songs. I myself do not know but since you know a lot I am sure you will come up with that list and shut the mouth of rafians.

    By providiong this list, you and I can prove that KK was more versatile than Rafi. Let the bset one win :)

  607. 607
    Vikram Says:

    Ashu, until recently I was not even aware of the Kishore Kumar version of “Tum Bin”. And to tell you the truth, it is definitely in no way better than Rafi’s. The yodelling that you guys talk about so often was pedestrian in this particular song. KK’s version is without a soul. Rafi’s, on the other hand sounds sweet and to the point. Yodelling is not a requirement to be a good singer. Sonu Nigam never yodels and is still the number one playback singer, far ahead of the below average Kishore clones. Udit Narayan’s style is more closer to Kishore Kumar’s, but he still feels proud to associate himself with Rafi school. Those third rate singers on K for Kishore can yodel as good as Kishore Kumar. They try to hide their bad singing with yodelling. To me yodelling sounds funny. There are better ways to add quality and make a song good. Rafi new that very well. If you talk about songs like ‘Dukhi Man Mere’ or ‘Hum Bewafa Hargiz’, it would make more sense.You are fighting for a cause that was lost 58 years ago. I like your fighting spirit though. Good luck to you.

    The whole world knows (Wherever hindi songs are followed) that Rafi sang some of the most difficult songs ever recorded. “Dil Aaj Shayar Hai” is of course a very good song. Kishore has done full justice to it. But, to characterise it as difficult would just not be right. It might have been difficult for Kishore, but would have been a cake walk for Rafi. The high notes that you are talking about in this song was a routine for Rafi. I have seen a lot of kids on “SAREGAMA little CHAMPS” render Kishore songs with utmost ease. I am talking about little kids here. Whenever they attempt Rafi songs, they cut a sorry figure. Compared with Rafi, Kishore songs are too easy to sing even for a rank average singer.

    You also object to when rafi fans talk about Ghazals, Quuawalis, Bhajans and patriotic songs. Ashu ji, to be a complete singer one should be able to sing just about anything. Rafi rendered everything with aplomb. Name any situation, Mohd. Rafi is right there. Republic Day, 15th August, Marriage ceremonies or for that matter any festivity, Rafi shines all over India through his songs. He is in India’s psyche. He is too big a person to be maligned by the evidence that you provide (factual or made up). He is way above comparision.
    Nobody gives a damn about what Asha Bhonse says or does not say. As I said earlier, she is a very selfish person. The duets that she recorded with Rafi are identified with him. Case in point, ‘Chura Liya Hai’ ‘Aaja Aaja Main Hoon’ (The one about which she is spreading those lies), ‘O Haseena Julfon’ and tens of more. Once she ditched OP Nayyer for RD Burman, when the latter was basking in the glory. It’s another issue that it was the former who made her whatever she is today. During the Rafi-Lata divide she ditched her sister (Lata). Lata boycotted Rafi for good three years. It did not affect Asha. She latched on to the opportunity and sang countless duets with Rafi. Later on when she had developed a niche for herself she made up with Lata.
    Rafi was and would remain the best for eternity.

  608. 608
    Sudip Says:

    Ashu wrote:
    “As you cleverly said, Kishore and Rafi approached were difficult. My dear friend, that is the real difference between them.”

    -Very much so.. But we are looking at the same thing from 180 degree opposite angles.

    You wrote: “I differ on “Laila Majnu”. Songs are great, but i can’t excite to listen it again and again….I can’t listen it more than once. I don’t rate these songs very high except one from Lata…”

    -So you think “Barbad-E-Mohabbat” should not be “highly rated”? . Man… you need to fine tune your musical senses. And I would still insist Chingari was flat (btw, I do have musical training). It was well sung with a golden voice, but thats about it.. Next time you state there are vocal modulations in Chingari, please mention which line, which matra, which swar.. And why you think it was a big deal..I have seen students sing Chingari in college socials and do reasonable justice. Of course none of them had a golden voice like Kishore (which I always admit), but none of them had problems with the tune (sur).

    And what do you exactly mean when you say Kishore sang better than Manna in Padosan? They sang so differently that it should not be even compared. Let me tell you this.. If we swapped Manna and Kishore in “Ek Chatur Naar”, Manna will still deliver something (maybe half as good as Kishore), Kishore will not deliver anything…

    We definitely listen with different presences-that’s why I think Rafi was way better in Hum Premee prem karna janey.. Now let me give you an example of modulation from a song which I think Kishore sang better than Rafi. I had written in the past that Kishore was better than Rafi in “Mere dildaar ka bakhpan”. But if you listen to the last stanza (the jugalbandi style duel), Rafi was switching from high to low frequency, Kishore kept on singing in the mid scale. As you rightly said, he could do that so easily and cover that up because he had a golden bass.

  609. 609
    Sudip Says:

    As far as the interview with Pancham is concerned, I think it was exaggerated.
    Having said that, I think Kishore really grasped Pancham’s moods. I have mentioned time and again, that bonding between the MD and the singer is important and Kishore and Pancham shared that (just as Rafi shared such with Jai or LP). Pancham in the interview is speaking about Rafi’s (in)ability to grasp what he wanted..He has not commented on Rafi’s singing ability..And I think we should honor Pancham’s point of view.

  610. 610
    Vipul Says:

    Sudip, Naive comment on Ek Chatur naar… Manna (though lost in movie) actually outclassed KK by a huge margin. KK can never sing even 10% of Manna Day as manna was classically trained.

    People argur that KK never had classical traning, but who stopped him?

    I can also say that I can play better cricket than Sachin but I did not take any training and blah blah… :)

  611. 611
    Vipul Says:

    Who was more comfortable at hig scale? Rafi or KK.
    I will let Ashu answer the question.

  612. 612
    Vipul Says:

    Who was more comfortable at high scale? Rafi or KK.
    I will let Ashu answer the question.

  613. 613
    xxx Says:

    pancham once commented in 1971(in radio show)

    “” ek gana jisko sunke mera bachpan mein b utna hi dil dhadakta tha jitna ki aaj, naushad saab aur rafi sahab ka……… tu ganga ki mauj mein jamuna ka dhaar “”

    pancham many times showed his gr8 respet for rafi saahab & naushad ji…………….

  614. 614
    xxx Says:

    all kk fans shud b gr8ful to pancham as he single handedly provided kk dat slot for which kk was struggling from past 20 years……..

    but how much it takes out of rafi sahab????

    answer is nothing, as pure golden eras 50s & 60s were ruled by rafi sahab,,

  615. 615
    Sudip Says:

    Vipul wrote:
    “People argue that KK never had classical training, but who stopped him?”

    -Actually Kishore did take classical training under Dilshad Khan. Everyone in the industry right from Lata to Sunidhi Chauhan to Kumar Sanu undergo classical trainings.
    Each of them have gurus that they train under (some of these are unheard of). It is a silly and baseless propaganda that one does not have classical training.

    -Between 1948 and 1969 Kishore acted in around 60 odd movies. That’s 3 movies a year-that too not exactly the Naseeruddin Shah types.. So what was he doing in his spare hours? OK.. He was romancing Ruma and Madhubala..Still it does not add up..Of course he was into music..

  616. 616
    Manish Kumar Says:

    “Rafisaab’s voice was of course his greatest blessing. High-pitched or soft,there was a certain namrataa in it. The inimitable harkatein and taan were all a natural part of his talent.”

    - Lata Mangeshkar

    INIMITABLE

  617. 617
    Manish Kumar Says:

    THANKS to the KK fan who runs this site that approves all the posts by Rafians. Mast Mast was absolutely right to point that out – he must be a great man. I really argue on the matter because it is fun to discuss – but arguing who was the greatest is very complicated. I do think you can do so for the OVERALL, GENERAL spectrum – but many fans only care for part of the spectrum. That spectrum could be only Kishore Kumar songs – so how can you tell that fan who is greater? When I do – it is my OPINION for the overall spectrum.

    I also want to revise my foolish statement about Kumar Sanu and his 3 songs (1) Tujhe Dekha To Yeh Jaana Sanam (2) Kisi Roz Tumse Mulaqat Hogi (3) Yeh Kaali Kaali Ankhen. They were very good songs rendered by well by Sanu. They should be left alone as his songs. And they are compositions that don’t require the SUPREME abilities of Kishore Kumar or Mohammed Rafi – Kumar Sanu’s abilities suffice. But if Rafi or Kishore were to sing those songs – they would be better (but there’s no need for it). Clearly I’m still learning. My favorite singers (1) Rafi (2) Kishore Kumar (3) Lata Mangeshkar (4) assortments. I cannot LIVE without ALL 3 SINGERS – just Rafi alone is NOT enough nor is Lata or Kishore alone.

  618. 618
    Manish Kumar Says:

    The confessions of a Rafi fan…

    This post doesn’t contribute to the debate. Since I’ve made several posts in this forum I’d like to share more about my musical journey. The intention isn’t to compare singers in this post (even if it seems to do so in favor of Kishore – that isn’t the purpose).

    I vividly remember the first line of any song that touched my heart: it was when I was 5 years old and heard the opening of “Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara” by Rafi. He expressed emotions so dearly! I want to add that if anyone else but Kishore was the co-singer of that song – it wouldn’t be as special to me as it is. Nevertheless, I didn’t pick up with music at that age – I kept associating music with movies and had never heard of legends like Kishore Kumar or Mohd Rafi. I had consciously “forgotten” about the Dostana song for at least another 7-8 years – but it was always in the back of my mind.

    So from the age of 6-12, I would watch Amitabh Bachchan movies laying around my house. And Kishore was the voice of Amitabh! So for those years I was a big KK bhakt (and I still am – give me a chance). Kishore Kumar had a REALLY COOL VOICE. It was FUN, it had lots of PERSONALITY (KK’s brilliant personality that is). As mentioned before, many songs became extremely popular thanks to that Kishore personality touch to his songs. Even a child could appreciate the Kishore personality (and please don’t misunderstand this as saying Kishore was childish or any nonsense like that – he was a brilliant, lively personality that was the favorite co-singer of many as he made them cheerful). Famous examples are Zindagi Ek Safar Hai Suhana and Chai Pe Bulaya (why were they so popular AND to this DAY remembered so well? certainly not a wave – but thanks to the AWESOME Kishore Kumar). I can clearly understand if someone became absolutely enchanted with that Kishore spectrum and always kept that at #1. Kishore Kumar is a world of his own.

    As you can imagine – anyone child living in a typical Indian household will have heard songs that they KNOW they’ve heard – even if they didn’t recognize the title, singer, etc. For me, “Aaja Intezar” from Halaku is a great example as is “Inteha Hogaya” from Sharabi. But often they are sub-consciously remembered. So at the age of 13 I was looking for a bunch of CDs to listen to as I was bored. Went through my parent’s CD collection and found boring bhajans, LOTS of Kishore Kumar & Lata Mangeshkar audio cassettes. I could only play CD as I was listening on my computer CD-Rom (remember those lol – back in my day hahaha). There was one Lata Mangeshkar CD of duets with some chap named – Mohammed Rafi! At the time I didn’t realize this is the same person whose voice loved as a child.

    So the first song I heard was “Tumhari Nazar Kiu Kaffa” from Do Kaliyan. One of my immediate thoughts was “this guy isn’t Kishore Kumar”. In fact, don’t want to upset anyone, forgive me, I was a 13 year old clown, but compared to Kishore Kumar’s energetic & playful songs – the opening lines of Tumhari Nazar Kiu Kaffa appeared kind of boring (yet technically perfect and with excellent tone & voice – I could detect that even as a child). But you know? – where was the Kishore antics that I found so much fun? The opening was just sung perfectly but with no coolness factor. Of course now I know that that song was not meant to be COOL like some of my favorite KK songs – but was meant to be ROMANTIC (which btw – don’t expect a 13 year old to understand). How was I to understand that? But you can see the effect of Kishore Kumar!

    Of course – I listened to that CD again when my father made me sit on a PC and pretend do homework (and I was sneakfully listening to the CD to do anything BUT do homework). I come upon “Rangat Teri Surat Se” and like the singer even more. Later I find out that Mohd Rafi is the chap who rendered Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara & John Johnny Janardhan – I listen to those songs again since many years – I LOVE RAFI. The wave doesn’t take full effect until 2006 when youtube makes these songs even more publicly available. Then I go CRAZY and you see me enthusiastically being a Rafian. Bear in mind that today we get exposed / access to music much faster than people 40 years ago who didn’t have this technology. So 2 years of listening today can equate to many years of listening in 1960 (just a suggestion / guess – how would I know). And I explore Rafi’s expansive career and he just hits me gem after gem. I just haven’t gotten around to revisiting Kishore Kumar as comprehensively as I’d like to. I have lots of songs.

    The saddest song that makes me depressed is Kishore’s Zindagi Ke Safar Mein and the only song ever that made me cry was Sholay’s “Yeh Dosti” sad version (picturization must have helped too lol). Yet, my “favorite” (what the heck does that mean?) sad song is “Yahan Main Ajnabi Hoon” (I’m not sure if this is really a sad song – the situation isn’t nearly as bad as it is in the first two). There – 3 different favorites! It is like going to a paint shop and asking for white paint and the guy gives you 37 whites to choose from.

    Just recently I was listening to Yahan Mai Ajnabi Hoon and got tired after repeating it 3 times. I had to resort to Zindagi Ka Safar Mein which I loved – then I went back to YMAH which I also loved! I need ALL the singers – one is not enough and one cannot replace the other’s contributions (hence makes it silly to compare within a particular spectrum). But comparing is fun sometimes. So yes, I was an ardent KK fan, have heard many of his songs, need to listen to him always, and have yet to finish exploring all his awesome songs!

  619. 619
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Few additions / clarifications

    When I talk about loving the Kishore personality – I didn’t put enough emphasis on his amazing voice. I love his VOICE very much too (maybe not for ALL types of songs – but for many thousands of songs he sang).

    And when I was talking about Aaja Intezar I meant that when you’re grown up and you hear that song all of a sudden – you may not know the title, MD, or even singer – but you’ll know you’ve heard it.

    And finally, Tumhari Nazar was a good song but it is far from the best Rafi-Lata duet or the best song of Rafi or Ravi. So that just happened to be the first song of the CD – it would be silly to use that song to compare – but that was never the purpose.

  620. 620
    kishore fan Says:

    Vipul: disagree about Ek Chatur Naar. It wasn’t a classical singing contest as you know. It was just all around comedy. It wasn’t serious singing. And Kishore won big for the comedy. To even assess that song musically is ridiculous. Manna was a technically superior singer to Kishore – but like Ashu – I agree he would not reach the same heights. It is because he didn’t have the same magic or filmy voice of Rafi or Kishore. He certainly had magic for that legendary song in Waqt – but generally speaking – he was behind Kishore & Rafi. the debate is ALWAYS between Rafi vs Kishore or Kishore vs Rafi – no other singers are mentioned. These two are clearly the top two.

  621. 621
    ashu Says:

    Vipul and Sudip,

    I can do nothing but laugh on ur comment that u r not aware of “TUm bin Jaao kaha”… Boss, u r free to say and write anything. This is democracy, but humble request don’t lie or don’t ignore the truth.

    I never argue that KK never had training, it is true that he did not have any formal training and nobody stopped him to do so. But i am sure he would not be so impressive or effective as he was.
    My dear friend, Though he did not get any formal training, he was very much aware of sur and taal. Pls. listen song “Paayal wali Dekhna” under Chitraguprta compostion, and this is pure semi-classical song.
    Kishore always proved himself different, that is why he respected higher than any other comtemporary singers.
    You wrote abt one song where Kishore sang better than Rafi,
    Here u wrote:

    Rafi was switching from high to low frequency, Kishore kept on singing in the mid scale.

    My reply:
    U r right, Kishore maintained his mid-scale, because he knew that will make the difference at end. Again, if everybody sing in same style then what is a fun, and what is an identity. Mere dost, Kishore was experimental and doesn’t care of anything whereas other trained singers were never accept challenge, and if by chance they accept then they fell down hard.

    for e.g. Aaaja Aaaja main hu pyaar tere
    Kishore used his singing style based on the requirment of song. For e.g. pls. analyse the song and range…
    - Ek hasina thi, Ek diwaana tha
    - Jab dard nahi tha sine me tab khakh maza tha jine me….
    Pls. listen last antara and write ur comment.

    And…
    Abt “Hum premi prem karna jaane”
    First line sing by Rafi very flat whereas Kishore modulate his voice when Amitabh started singing.

    - Padosan
    U said it can’t be compared because both sang in different style. U r absolutely right. Though it was sing in different style, Not only me but also many (Of course not u…Because u r next musical trainer singer after Rafi)felt that Kishore won the battle. Can u sing ” a aa e eeeeee u uuuuuu” in sure? Noone can sing, trained singer can sing “AALAP” but not this. This is the real difference and impact.
    I am sure u people might have heard ( “Meri pyari Bindu”…Hilarious situation has dominated this song, but listen this song (don’t watch) and analyse Kishore’s voice modulation and range…
    ha aa..I think Vikram might have not heard of this song…Pls. visit musicindiaonline.com for these songs.

    I don’t care for difficult or simple, i just care abt execution. If execution is perfect, nothing is difficult. That is true in case of Kishore.
    I’ll tell u scenario, There was match between SA and India….There was a bowler named DeVillier, He got out Sachin in first 3 matches badly. Sachin worked very hard on his footwork problem, and rest of the matched he smashed DeVillier every corner of the ground.
    Morale of the story is, May be things are difficult (I m not agree in case of Kishore…Just repeating ur words), but if execution and implementation is great then nothing like this…

  622. 622
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend..

    I think only Manna Dey sang most difficult songs, not Rafi…truth is whenever there are tough songs, MDs remember Manna Dey.

    It is like this, when India needed somebody to stand at the stump and save the match , it would be none other than Dravid who did this difficult task for us.
    No doubt Dravid is great, but versatile as Sachin.

    I don’t understand…ki…tum log kaha kaha se fake baate likhte ho…
    When udit narayan said that he belong to Rafi’ school? He(different voice) is not 10% of Rafi, but must be better than Sonu (Clone of Rafi). I watched Udit’s interview in Zee TV, he said he wanted to become like “KISHORE” and “RAFI” whose fame was no lesser than Heroes. You guys are talking abt Sonu Nigam, No doubt he is trained singer and sang some beautiful songs but his voice is faminine voice… I heard him singing “GAADI BULA RAHI HAI” in SA RA GA MA little Champ last week. He was worst. and my dear friend Vikram, Where i ssonu Nigam since last 2 yrs, and how many songs he is singing. I am sure he will be disappeared like Kumar Sanu near furure.
    I must tell u he is singing lots of Kannada songs, because he is hardly getting good songs in Hindi.
    Let me tell u abt Kishore’s influence.
    According to me, Song of 2007 is from film “SAAWARIYA”. Most of the songs are sung in Kishore’s style.
    - KK sang “AANKHO me Teri..”, Vishal told inhis interview that this song is influenced by Kishore.

  623. 623
    ashu Says:

    Dear Vikram..

    Here what u wrrote:

    You also object to when rafi fans talk about Ghazals, Quuawalis, Bhajans and patriotic songs. Ashu ji, to be a complete singer one should be able to sing just about anything. Rafi rendered everything with aplomb. Name any situation, Mohd. Rafi is right there. Republic Day, 15th August, Marriage ceremonies or for that matter any festivity, Rafi shines all over India through his songs. He is in India’s psyche. He is too big a person to be maligned by the evidence that you provide (factual or made up). He is way above comparision.

    My reply
    My answer is in term of question to you How many Qawaalis, Ghazals, Patriotic and blah blah offered to Kishore?Though he sang all song, of course less in quantity.
    I must say, and Kishore is like Rafi in this category…They never dominated any of these categories though Rafi sang more songs in these category. I think Rafi is good in Qawaali..

    My dear friend, Kishore sang for all categories but after 70s..
    Qawwali:
    1. Ek Baar Parde Se Kahin Jo, Chhum Se Tera Aana Ho
    2. Haal Kya hai dilon ka na puchho sanam
    3. Vaada tera vaada
    4. Duniya Ke Bazaar Mein Bhaiya Chalta Khota Maal

    Patriotic:
    1. Dekho veer jawaano apne…
    Personaly i like this song after my most fav. patriotic song from “Haqeeqat” sung by Rafi

    Ghazal:
    Many, but i will write 2..
    1. AAye tum yaad mujhe
    2. Kaise kahe hum

    My analsyse on Qawwali and Ghazals:
    I think everybody knows that Rafi’s mother language was Urdu, and in 50s and 60s. Our film industry is dominated by Urdu speaking lyricist except Shailendra and later Anand Bakshi, Indeevar, Anjaan. And Urdu is default language for Qawwali and Ghazals, that is why Rafi, Talat Mehmood was righ candiate for this kind of songs…

    There was a song in “Zamaane ko Dikhana Hai”…”Puchho na yaar kya hua”. Though i am great admirer of Rafi, i must say Rafi didnot do justice to this song, especially when he sang…”Chak chak chakak chak…” in same song. Pls. listen and provide ur 180 degree view.

  624. 624
    Vipul Says:

    Ashu,
    You provided list of 1 patriotic song, 0 bhajan, 0 classical, 4 quwallis (though most of them do not even sound like Quwalli, vadda tera vadda is quawlli? does it sound like Quawalli?) and couple of ghazals by KK.
    and you feel KK was more versatile than Rafi.. nice… I just agree with u.. We (and KK) have won the battle in versatility field of singing.

  625. 625
    Vipul Says:

    Ashu, you said Urdu is default language for Ghazal and Quawalli. Is it default language for Bhajans too?
    Then if we go by you logic, KK must have sang more bhajans than Rafi. Please clarify if it is true.

  626. 626
    Sudip Says:

    Ashu wrote:
    “There was a song in “Zamaane ko Dikhana Hai”…”Puchho na yaar kya hua”. Though i am great admirer of Rafi, i must say Rafi didnot do justice to this song, especially when he sang…”Chak chak chakak chak…” in same song. Pls. listen and provide ur 180 degree view.”

    -I AGREE. And again this is another song where I felt Rafi did not understand RD.

    -As far as Qawwalis are concerned, Kishore did sing a few. But very few created the ambience (in urdu “mahol”) of qawwali. In a recent Star VOI contest, one singer sang “Kabhi bekasi ne mara” (Alag alag) and the judges commented that the choice of song itself was wrong. It was deemed too light against the other songs.

    I am sure Kishore had potential to do much more..That’s why in any discussion about Kishore it comes down to “he did not have classical training”, “he could have done this”, “he could have easily sung that”.. FOLKS..here we are not discussing potential, but their contributions (what they actually did). NOT what if Michael Jackson sang Ghazals?

    GUYS… If you sincerely feel Kishore’s contribution to film music is more than Rafi’s 32 years of high class contribution, you are entitled to your opinion.

  627. 627
    Dipak Says:

    Mohan Mohan was not as popular as shanker Jaikishan but even lata said Mohan Mohan produced some of the very best songs.Kishore did not want to or had no time for classical trainning as S.D.Burman accepted him as he was.from 1950-1960 he was busy with his films,nursing his wife for ten years and singing ,writing ,producing films as we as to sing for the likes of Dev Andand.Rafi just concertrated on full time singing career.Kishore could not have completed with Rafi in the 1950`s and 1960`s as a lot of Music Directors of that time only wanted Rafi -lata (Asha had to take a back seat…)I think O.P Nayyar accepted Asha to sing his songs .In my humble opionion Asha Sounded better with Kishore Kumar as they could sing songs with they own unique style which was harder to copy…

  628. 628
    Vipul Says:

    Ashu .. please clarify who is more versatile? Do we need Urdu background for Ghazals? Today’s ghazal singfers like Pankaj Udhas, Jagjit singh have Urdu background?

    Do we need Urdu background for devotional songs too? In that case do not you think KK must have sung more bhajans than Rafi.

    How about patriotic songs? Whose voice sounds more suitable and why?

    Now you are telling me that Ek Hasina Thi of KK was high pitch song. I agree, but is that song difficult to sing? Though my voice is not as good as Rafi and KK, I can go on that high pitch very easily and my friends confirmed that. (I do not have the same voice quality as KK but I stay in sur). But when I attemt “Mahubat zinda raheti hai” or “Zindabaad” or chal ood ja re panchhi, I sound aweful… I cant even reach those scale.

    So my question again.. Who is more comfortable at high notes? Rafi or KK?

    Who is more comfortable in classical songs (Rafi or KK?) I will leave Manna dey and other classical singers out of this comparison as we are only comparing Rafi and KK.

    I will let you decide as you know more than me.

  629. 629
    Vipul Says:

    Dear friends,
    Even though Rafisaab was voted the Singer of the millenium, some of our friends still had doubts and kept on arguing on the subject unnecessarily.
    Our stand – RAFISAAB IS THE BEST- has been vindicated once again.We don’t have to prove it, friends. The World knows and feels it. OUTLOOK appearing on June26,2006, had Kumar Sanu and Abhijeet on the jury, too!
    Rafisaab also had the maximum number of songs(male or female) on the 20 most popular songs ever! Read on!
    BREAKING NEWS!

    RAFISAAB VOTED THE MOST POPULAR MALE PLAYBACK SINGER EVER!
    Also, top three of the 20 most popular songs ever have been sung by the one and only MOHAMMED RAFISAAB! For more, pl. go to

    http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20060626&fname=ABestSongs&sid=2

    20 Best Hindi Film Songs Ever
    Outlook asked 30 leading composers, lyricists and singers to name their all-time favourite Hindi film songs. Here are the top twenty.

    Special Issue: Bollywood Music Special

    The Jury
    Abhijeet, Adesh Srivastava, Alisha Chinai, Anu Malik, Ehsaan, Gulzar, Hariharan, Himesh Reshammiya, Jatin, Javed Akhtar, Kailash Kher, Kavita Krishnamurthy, Khayyam, Kumar Sanu, Lalit, Loy, Mahalaxmi Iyer, Mahendra Kapoor, Manna Dey, Prasoon Joshi, Rajesh Roshan, Sadhna Sargam, Sameer, Sandesh Shandilya, Shaan, Shankar, Shantanu Moitra, Shreya Ghoshal, Sonu Nigam, Talat Aziz.

    Poll conducted By Lata Khubchandani and Namrata Joshi. Each jury member was asked to nominate 10 favourites
    in no order of preference.

    The winners are ranked according to the number of votes each song got.

    1. Man re, tu kaahe na dheer dhare
    Singer: Mohammed Rafi
    Film: Chitralekha (1964)
    Music: Roshan
    Lyrics Sahir Ludhianvi

    2. Three songs tied for the second position
    Tere mere sapne ab ek rang hain…
    Singer: Mohammed Rafi
    Film: Guide (1965)
    Music: S.D. Burman
    Lyrics: Shailendra

    Din dhal jaaye, hai raat na jaaye…
    Singer: Mohammed Rafi
    Film: Guide (1965)
    Music: S.D. Burman
    Lyrics Shailendra

    Kuch to log kahenge logon ka kaam hai kehna… Singer: Kishore Kumar
    Film: Amar Prem (1971)
    Music: R.D. Burman
    Lyrics: Anand Bakshi

    3. Three songs tied for the third position

    Waqt ne kiya kya haseen sitam…
    Singer: Geeta Dutt
    Film: Kaagaz ke phool (1959)
    Music: S.D. Burman
    Lyrics: Kaifi Azmi

    Jo vaada kiya woh nibhana padega…
    Singers: Rafi-Lata
    Film: Taj Mahal (1963)
    Music: Roshan
    Lyrics: Sahir Ludhianvi

    Pyar kiya to darna kya…
    Singer: Lata Mangeshkar
    Film: Mughal-e-Azam (1960)
    Music: Naushad
    Lyrics: Shakeel Badayuni

    4. Thirteen songs tied for the fourth position

    Ai qaatib-e-taqdeer mujhe itna bata de…
    Singer: K.L. Saigal
    Film: My Sister (1944)
    Music: Pankaj Mullick
    Lyrics: Pandit Bhushan

    Ayega, ayega, ayega ayega aane wala…
    Singer: Lata Mangeshkar
    Film: Mahal (1949)
    Music: Khemchand Prakash
    Lyrics: Nakshab Jarachavi

    Piya tose naina lage re…
    Singer: Lata Mangeshkar
    Film: Guide (1965)
    Music: S.D. Burman
    Lyrics: Shailendra

    Mai ye sochkar uske dar se…
    Singer: Mohammed Rafi
    Film: Haqeeqat (1964)
    Music: Madan Mohan
    Lyrics: Kaifi Azmi

    O sajna, barkha bahar ayee…
    Singer: Lata Mangeshkar
    Film: Parakh (1960)
    Music: Salil Chowdhury
    Lyrics: Shailendra

    Kuch dil ne kaha, kuch bhi nahin…
    Singer: Lata Mangeshkar
    Film: Anupama (1966)
    Music: Hemant Kumar
    Lyrics: Kaifi Azmi

    Zindagi ke safar me guzar jate hain jo makam…
    Singer: Kishore Kumar
    Film: Aap ki kasam (1974)
    Music: R.D.Burman
    Lyrics: Anand Bakshi

    Tum jo mil gaye ho to ye lagta hai, ke jahan mil gaya…
    Singer: Mohammed Rafi
    Film: Hanste zakhm (1973)
    Music: Madan Mohan
    Lyrics: Kaifi Azmi

    Dil cheez kya hai aap meri jaan lijiye…
    Singer: Asha Bhonsle
    Film: Umrao Jaan (1981)
    Music: Khayyam Lyrics Shahryar

    Chura liya hai tumne jo dil ko…
    Singers: Asha Bhonsle-Mohammed Rafi
    Film: Yaadon ki baraat (1973)
    Music: R.D. Burman
    Lyrics: Majrooh

    Tum pukar lo…
    Singer: Hemant Kumar
    Film: Khamoshi (1969)
    Music: Hemant Kumar Lyrics Gulzar

    Har ghadi badal rahi hai roop zindagi…
    Singer: Sonu Nigam
    Film: Kal ho naa ho (2003)
    Music: Shankar-Ehsaan-Loy
    Lyrics: Javed Akhtar

    Poocho na kaise maine rain bitayi…
    Singer: Manna Dey
    Film: Meri soorat teri aankhen (1963)
    Music: S.D. Burman
    Lyrics: Shailendra

    IN THIS STORY:

    Tere Liye Saat Rang Ke Sapne
    Enough. No more ‘which Hindi film song is the greatest’ debates. Outlook asked, and the men who make the music have spoken…

    The #1 Song
    Man Re Tu Kaahe Naa Dheer Dhare: the Song, the composer, the lyricist

    The Most Popular Film
    Guide (1965)

    The Most Popular Lyricist
    Shailendra (1923-66)

    The Most Popular Singers
    Lata Mangeshkar and Mohammed Rafi (1924-80)

    The Most Popular Composer
    S.D. Burman (1921-75)

  630. 630
    Vikram Says:

    Ashu, ‘Aaye Tum Yaad Mujhe’ is an excellent song. Kishore Kumar is brilliant in this one. Very well sung indeed! ‘Dekho Veer Jawano’ is also a good song and rendered well, but when compared with the same genre songs by Rafi, it just does not measure up. Same goes for the Kishore Qwwallis and devotional songs (if any). There is not much to talk about here as we have entered a one way street.
    Again, I have really not heard the song ‘Meri Pyari Bindu’ that you mentioned in your last post. I am sure it’s another pedestrian and inconsequential song from the otherwise great stable of Kishore Kumar.

  631. 631
    Vipul Says:

    I pesonally like Manna Dey and Talat Mehmood as singers, but if you ask me to pick the best singer it was undoubtedly Rafi saheb. He was blessed with all the qualities to be a great singer. He gave all the great musicians all the freedom to experiment with songs by being able to sing whatever type of song given to him. There was only one replacement to him Manna Dey, but his voice did not suite to actors’ voice unfortunately. Bade Ghulam Ali Khan Saheb himself praised Rafi saheb’s voice and singing. He wudnt praise Kishore’s voice, will he?

  632. 632
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu,

    You’ve got me very curious. Do you have any interview / video where Nasir Hussain indicates he lost a bet to RDB for Asha singing better than Rafi in TM? I believe you and am sure it is on tape – I’d just like to see it for the fun.

    Thanks!

  633. 633
    ashu Says:

    Mr. Vipul,

    I read outlook when it published. Most popular singer was decided based on the number of songs present in the list, and that is why Rafi and Lata was there on the top.

    If you start thread on no. 1 MD award went to S D Burman. I am sure You people will come up with different view.
    So my dear friend don’t go with list….
    And one more…
    Do u think “KAL HO NA HO” song deserve to be in the list…..? I think there are thousands of songs better than KAL HO NA HO…

    My dear friend…My humble reuqets to you guys…Pls. listen
    “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare” sung by Kishore in memory of Rafi in one concert, only harmonium was used as music instrument…I already send my thought on this. Please listen and provide 180 degree view.

    Vipul my dear friend,
    You said…u r voice is not as good as Rafi and KK. I would like if any rafians (may be u…trained singer:)) come forward and sing one song of Rafi and Kishore, and post it here and let other rafians anlayse this songs and come up with their feedback.
    You will understand what i mean the…

  634. 634
    Sudip Says:

    I think the most contentious part of the Outlook poll was Rafi’s songs themselves. It is so difficult to agree on top 10 songs of Rafi. I am surprised that there were no place for:
    -Man tadpat hari darshan
    -Suhani raat dhal chuki
    -Kabhi Khud pe
    -Main nigahen tere chehre
    -Aap ke hassen rukh pe
    -Tumhari Zulf ke saaye mein
    -Dur rehkar na karo baat
    -Raha gardishon mein hardam
    -Tu kahan yeh bata
    and countless others…………………..

    I can possibly never agree on top 10 songs of Rafi..

  635. 635
    ashu Says:

    My dear frien Vipul,

    u wrote:

    Ashu .. please clarify who is more versatile? Do we need Urdu background for Ghazals? Today’s ghazal singfers like Pankaj Udhas, Jagjit singh have Urdu background?

    Do we need Urdu background for devotional songs too? In that case do not you think KK must have sung more bhajans than Rafi

    My reply:
    I think u did not get me what i wrote..I never said Urdu backgroumd is required for Qawwali and ghazals, but my dear friend….If ur background is Urdu, then u r right candidate for it. Same thing happen with Rafi in 50s and 60s, our MDs did not have option so they went with Rafi…When they got option they moved to other singer.
    Can you say Rafi is best Qawwali singer, Ghazal singer, Bhajan singer? NO.

    He was one of the best among best playback singers. Qawwali, Ghazal, bhajan are very differnt form of singing, and there are legends for this categories, Rafi no where stands in front of them.

    Do you remember Rafi when u r sad or in romatic mood? If i ask this question to myself the answer is “NO”….(You have rights to differ)
    I will listen to KISHORE and MUKESH for sad song..Rafi comes third
    I will listen to Kishore and Rafi for romantic song..
    I like Lata duets with Kishore and Rafi, both..
    Ghazal..i would like to hear Mehandi Hasan and Jagjit singh
    Bhajan…Suresh Wadkar, Ravindra Sathe

  636. 636
    ashu Says:

    Vipul,

    I forgot to write…
    I think Mukesh is not there in the Outlook list….Do you think Hindi music will complete without Mukesh? I think whenevr there is talk on SAD song, probably Mukesh name will always stood first .

  637. 637
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend Sudip,

    I glad that you accepted the truth that Rafi went wrong in “Pochho na yaar kya hua”…

    Rafi fought very well in 70s, but 70s era required different types of singing. Though Rafi was there, but Kishore dominated this era.
    Abt “ALAG ALAG” song, First of all this song sang very badly by the contenstant, the contestant is trained singer and this song did not suit him. Last episode in CHHOTE USTAD, one kid sang song from “LAKHO ME EK” movie. Shreya said, this songs looks very simple, but it is very difficult to sing. Greatness abt Kishore is, he made things looks very simple which is not simple in real.
    As i request in prev. blog, I would like to hear one trained Rafians to sing a song of rafi and kishore, and let we analyse there singing. Purpose behind is not to judge singer, but to judge his closeness abt singing style.
    I hope i am able to convey my message…

  638. 638
    ashu Says:

    sudip

    u wrote:

    I can possibly never agree on top 10 songs of Rafi..

    My reply:
    I agree with you. My top 10 of Rafi songs will be different…

  639. 639
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend Manish,

    i don’t have Tap…but u can contact any news channel (especially Zee or NDTV) and ask for Asha’s interview last year..
    She narrated this with her own word on TV channel….

  640. 640
    ashu Says:

    Sorry to write again..
    Manish, you can ask Binu Nair…he will have this…:)

  641. 641
    ashu Says:

    Sorry for short reply.
    I just got my eyes on Vipul’s blog…

    He wrote:

    Bade Ghulam Ali Khan Saheb himself praised Rafi saheb’s voice and singing. He wudnt praise Kishore’s voice, will he?

    My reply:
    Did anyone ask him abt Kishore?
    My dear friend, very simple logic..
    e.g.Naushad always praised Rafi. If nobody asked him abt Kishore, how would you know what he think abt him. In one channel, somebody asked him abt Kishore, He praised Kishore.
    Let me give u another example:
    If somebody ask Karan Johar abt Shahrukh, i will definetely say something good abt him, does it mean Amitabh is lesser to him in any department.

  642. 642
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend Vikram,

    First place, u guys are saying Kishore has not sung Qawwali, Ghazal, Patriotic etc.
    i listed couple of songs from these categories, and now u r talking abt quality which is complety off the track..
    I did not ask you what u feel abt these songs. Choice will vary from people to people. I respect if u don’t like it or u like some other songs.
    But i request don’t try to spend some false thing…Though it will not effect anybody, because world knows abt Kishore…
    I like Veer Jawano very much, but after “HAQEEQAT” song…

    ..I have heard “Meri Pyari Bindu” many many time…I keep watching “PADOSAN” DVD inmy spare time…I have seen this movie approx. 50 times…I am very much confident in writing this line….”One and Only Kishore could have done justice to this song”

  643. 643
    SUNNYBAL Says:

    HI GUYS,

    OTHER SINGERS SINGING CAN NEVER EVER BE COMPAIRED WITH KISHOREDAS. THE TRUTH IS THAT HE WAS TOTALLY GOD GIFTED AS WE ALL KNOW THAT NO SINGER EVER DID YODELLING EXACTLY AS HIM AND SO FAR MILLIONS TRIED TO COPY HIS YODELLING BUT DID NOT EVEN COME CLOSE TO HIS, WHICH PROVES THAT HE WAS THE BEST OF THE BEST. THE WAY HE YODELLED IN HIS SONGS IS NO JOKE AND IT IS IMPOSSSIBLE FOR ANY OTHER SINGER TO YODELL EXACTLY AS HE DID AND BY HIS YODELLING HE BECAME VERY POPULAR AND WELL RECORGNIZED IN THIS UNIVERSE AND FOR SURE HE LEFT BEHIND HIS NAME IN EVERYONES HEART

    SECONDLY, WITHOUT TAKING ANY PROPER SINGING LESSIONS KISHOREDA SANG SO MANY SONGS WITH NON MISTAKE. YES” HIS SONGS SEEMS TO BE SIMPLE BUT IT IS TECHNICALLY VERY COMPLICATED, THATS WHY HIS SONGS SOUND SO SWEET AND MELODIOUS.

    OTHER SINGERS TOOK MUSIC LESSIONS FOR YEARS AND KISHOREDA DID NOT AND WIHOUT IT HE WORKED HARD AND BECAME THE WORLDS TOP ARTIST. I BELIEVE KISHOREDA WAS TOTALLY BLESSED AND NO MATTER WHAT IS APPLIED, THAT PERSON CAN NEVER EVER BE DEFEATED WHO IS BLESSED BY GOD. WE ALL SHOULD GIVE HIM CREDIT BECAUASE HE DID SOMETHING VERY AMAZING WHERE AS A NORMAL HUMAN BEING CAN NEVER POSSIBLY DO WHAT EVER HE DID.

    COME ON GUYS BE FAIR AND COME UP WITH TRUTH AND REALITY. DIDNT HE SHOW THE WORLD THAT HE WAS NOT JUST A SINGER BUT A COMPOSER, ACTOR AND A DIRECTOR. HE WAS ALL IN ONE. AGAIN I WOULD SAY THAT NO OTHER ARTIST CAN BE COMPARED WITH THE KING OF THE KINGS, THE ONE AND ONLY, THE GREAT ARTIST KISHOREDA.

    IT IS USELESS TO ARGUE ON THIS ISSUE AND IT IS NOT WISE TO INSULT OR CONDERM ANY ARTIST AS WE ALL SHOULD RESPECT AND SUPPORT THEM TO BECOME THE BEST. HOWEVER EVERYONE IS TRYING HARD TO ACHIEVE A GOAL BUT ACCORDING TO BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE KISHOREDA WAS SOMETHING DIFFERENT. YES” I DONT BLAME TONS OF PEOPLE WHO WORSHIP HIM AND IT COULD BE VERY TRUE THAT HE WAS A LORD IN A CARNATION FORM WHO CAME ON THIS EARTH WITH AMAZING AND INCREDIBLE TALENTS WHO HAS BEEN UNDEFEATED AND REMAINED AS AN UNSOLVED MISTRY.

    RAFI SAHAB, MUKESH JI AND SO MANY OTHER SINGERS ARE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED. IN ADDITION I LOVE RAFI SAHABS AND MUKESHJIS SONGS. THEY WERE ALSO VERY ARTISTIC AND THIER SONGS ARE GREAT BUT IN OVER ALL KISHOREDAS SINGING WAS EXTRA SUPER HIT WHICH CANNOT BE EXPRESSED IN WORDS. HOWEVER MY COMMENT IS BASED ON TRUTH AND REALTY AND I BELIEVE NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS TRUTH ALWAYS EVERLAST.

    SUNNYBAL SURREY BC CANADA.

  644. 644
    Vikram Says:

    Ashu, you have to learn to live with the fact that Rafi indeed was the best. You just don’t seem to agree with anything. Your favorite singer KK was no doubt very good, but pales in front of the colossus Rafi. Now you are writing as per your convenience, ignoring the majority view and all the facts that have been presented here.
    I am sure if the Outlook survey had declared Kishore Kumar as the most popular singer, you would have been more than happy to refer to it. As far as I am concerned, SD Burman was the best. The creator of Din Dhal Jaaye, Tere Mere Sapane, Yeh Duniya Agar Mil, Dil Ka Bhanwar, Kya Se Kya, Dekhi Zamane Ki Yaari, Tu Kahan Yeh Bata, Tere Bin Sune, Poochho Na Kaise Maine, Tere Mere Milan Ki Ye Raina, Teri Bindiya Re and scores of others just can not be the second best.
    And also, it was the same Vishal-Shekhar who told Sonu Nigam on “Sare Gama Little Champs” that MAIN AGAR KAHOON from OM Shanti OM was probably the best composition of the last ten years. Now where does that leave ANKHON MEIN TERI? Kal Ho Na Ho song is very- very good. Your problem here might be Sonu Nigam, whom you despise because his idol is Rafi. I am sure there are better songs than this one. This debate can go on for ever. No two people will ever have the same choice of songs. Manna Dey had once told Sonu Nigam that he (Manna) wished that Sonu was his contemporary. Sonu is so good. He has taken a hiatus from filmi music. It’s a self imposed exile. He just does not want to sing trash that Kishore Kumar so often sang in the 80′s. He has said that he would rather sing 10 good songs than 200 bad ones in a year. That’s called dedication. You like it or not Sonu Nigam is too good for those Kishore clones. Yes, I like Amit Kumar. He sounds original. Such a shame that he was overshadowed by those KK clowns.

  645. 645
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Oh! You mean Asha spoke on behalf of Nasir Hussain? Errrr….I don’t trust Asha at all and I’d rather not get into it. I thought you meant Nasir Hussain himself said it. Not a big deal, I was just curious. But if it was an Asha interview – I could hardly care. And I don’t think Asha sounded better in Rafi in TM – she overdid her part and you could hear her esophagus – yuk!

  646. 646
    Vipul Says:

    Ashu saheb,
    Nice! I just do not understand why do you bring other singers in the debate when we are comparing Rafi and KK?
    You say that Suresh Wadkar is better bhajan singer than Rafi (Though it is debatable). But we are comparing Rafi and KK here rite?
    Please let me know if you want to compare Rafi and Wadkar or Rafi and Jagjit Singh.

    You know how do you sound?
    According to you Jagjit Singh is a better Ghazal singer than Rafi so KK is better than Rafi!
    But according to me Rafi is better than Jagjit Singh in Ghazals as it is my personal choice. May be you have not heard Rafi’s private Ghazal album. Jagit has sung more ghazals than Rafi Agree but that is what he has done for his entire life so it is obivious.

    But the point is stick to comparing Rafi and KK. Please do not bring others in comparison.
    I know that Manna dey is better in classical songs than Rafi but here we are comparing Rafi and KK (and not Manna Dey). Stick to the point.

    BTW, I like your ability of selective reading and diverting the discussion away when KK’s weakness is exposed.

  647. 647
    Vipul Says:

    Ashu.. Here is my post again. (please stick to Rafi and KK as we want to decide who is more versatile….)
    1> Who is better in Ghazals? Who sang more and why? (Rafi or KK)

    2> How about patriotic songs? Whose voice sounds more suitable and why? (Rafi or KK?) Please do not say that Mehedra Kapoor also sang many such songs and that is why Rafi is not number 1. We are comparing Rafi and KK.

    3> Who sang more devotional songs and who voice sounds more suitable? (Rafi or KK?)

    4> Who is more comfortable at high notes? Rafi or KK?

    5> Who is more comfortable in classical/semi classical songs songs (Rafi or KK?)

    6> How about Punjabi Bhangra or folk music? (Rafi or KK?)

    7> Who sang in more languages and more songs in languages other than Hindi. (Please do not bring Udit in the picture)

    I am intend to quit this debate as I know there is no point continuing further. Thanks for your time…. I am waiting for your another smart reply (away from actual debate)

  648. 648
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend Vikram..
    U wrote:

    Again, I have really not heard the song ‘Meri Pyari Bindu’ that you mentioned in your last post. I am sure it’s another pedestrian and inconsequential song from the otherwise great stable of Kishore Kumar.

    My reply:
    What abt “Man tadpat hari darshan ko aaj man” and “Ramlal murdabad daal roti zindabad”?
    As per ur analysis…..”Man Tadpat hari darshan ko aaj man” must be another pedestrian and inconsequential song and later one must be classical :)

  649. 649
    Sudip Says:

    “He was one of the best among best playback singers. Qawwali, Ghazal, bhajan are very differnt form of singing, and there are legends for this categories, Rafi no where stands in front of them.

    Do you remember Rafi when u r sad or in romantic mood? If i ask this question to myself the answer is “NO”….(You have rights to differ)
    I will listen to KISHORE and MUKESH for sad song..Rafi comes third
    I will listen to Kishore and Rafi for romantic song..
    I like Lata duets with Kishore and Rafi, both..
    Ghazal..i would like to hear Mehandi Hasan and Jagjit singh
    Bhajan…Suresh Wadkar, Ravindra Sathe ”

    -Whatever be your rating (look at mine at the beginning of the post), Rafi will figure among top 3 in all GENRES. No other singer will. We are talking Hindi film music here.. So Mehdi Hasan does not count (though he has sung few). How about bringing Madonna into the equation??

    As far as Hindi film ghazals are concerned Jagjit stands nowehere close to Rafi. When it comes to Hindi film music, Talat is known as the “King of Ghazals”. Even then, Rafi equaled him (or to me, overshadowed Talat) in Jahan-Ara where both were given even number of songs… Can you name one Bhajan of Suresh Wadkar (outside Marathi movies) that will make into the top charts of Hindi film music? Leave aside “Man Tadpat” which will figure as the best rendition of Malkauns by any Hidi film singer.. LP was surprised how Rafi belonging to an altogether different religious background, could sing “Sukh ke sab sathi”..Which is by Kalyanji Anandji.

    Coming to Kalyanji Anandji, I just recalled two songs that reinforces my “specific singer for specific actor” theory as far as KA goes. In Raaz, Chhoti Bahu, Saccha Jhutha, etc KA used Rafi against Rajesh Khanna (in case you were surprised why they used Kishore for Dharmendra).

    You sidestepped the Outlook poll by bringing in Mukesh. You can argue from several angles like who was the most influential singer of 1970s or who was the greatest entertainer and I am ready to concede those. But when it comes to the long history of Hindi film music, there is only one singer whose contribution is the greatest (only comparable to Lata). That’s RAFI. Period.

  650. 650
    Sudip Says:

    “He was one of the best among best playback singers. Qawwali, Ghazal, bhajan are very differnt form of singing, and there are legends for this categories, Rafi no where stands in front of them.

    Do you remember Rafi when u r sad or in romantic mood? If i ask this question to myself the answer is “NO”….(You have rights to differ)
    I will listen to KISHORE and MUKESH for sad song..Rafi comes third
    I will listen to Kishore and Rafi for romantic song..
    I like Lata duets with Kishore and Rafi, both..
    Ghazal..i would like to hear Mehandi Hasan and Jagjit singh
    Bhajan…Suresh Wadkar, Ravindra Sathe ”

    -Whatever be your rating (look at mine at the beginning of the post), Rafi will figure among top 3 in all GENRES. No other singer will. We are talking Hindi film music here.. So Mehdi Hasan does not count (though he has sung few). mehdi hasan himself stated there was only one Indian male singer he held in high esteem-Rafi. How about bringing Madonna into the equation next time??

    As far as Hindi film ghazals are concerned, Jagjit stands nowehere close to Rafi. When it comes to Hindi film music, Talat is known as the “King of Ghazals”. Even then, Rafi equaled him (or to me, overshadowed Talat) in Jahan-Ara where both were given even number of songs… The best expert/judge of Ghazals in Hindi film history was a person called Madan Mohan. Do I need to tell you who his favorite singer was?

    Can you name one Bhajan of Suresh Wadkar (outside Marathi movies) that will make into the top charts of Hindi film music? It is OK to love Kishore- but pls do not argue for arguments sake.. Leave aside “Man Tadpat” which will figure as the best rendition of Malkauns by any Hindi film singer.. LP was surprised how Rafi belonging to an altogether different religious background, could sing “Sukh ke sab sathi”..Which is by Kalyanji Anandji.

    Coming to Kalyanji Anandji, I just recalled two songs that reinforces my “specific singer for specific actor” theory as far as KA goes. In Raaz, Chhoti Bahu, Saccha Jhutha, etc KA used Rafi against Rajesh Khanna (in case you were surprised why they used Kishore for Dharmendra).

    You sidestepped the Outlook poll by bringing in Mukesh. You can argue from several angles like who was the most influential singer of 1970s or who was the greatest entertainer and I am ready to concede those. But when it comes to the long history of Hindi film music, there is only one singer whose contribution is the greatest (only comparable to Lata). That’s RAFI. Period.

  651. 651
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu,

    I’d preferred Kishore Kumar to sing “Poocho Na Yaar Kya Hua”. Rafi executed it fine but “KK cool personality” could fit that song. I’m listening to that song in my head in Kishore’s Zindagi Ek Safar Hai Suahana type rendition and it is a fun song – but it still doesn’t rank with the best of RDB. I’ve maintained that sometimes one song sounds best from one particular singer. Chai Pe Bulaya by Kishore, Dost Dost Na Raha by Mukesh, or Dil Ke Jharoke Mein by Rafi. Or in this case “Poocho Na Yaar Kya Hua” for Kishore. But for me – the sing with most songs suited for him best – would be Rafi. His versatility is hard to deny – the careers clearly show it.

    You seem like a genuine music lover but some fans use Mannade for convenience only. When it comes to listening to film music, the lion’s share go to Rafi & Kishore. When it comes to discussion, a Kishore fan will bring in Mannade or Ustads to downplay Rafi’s superior versatility and abilities for even toughest songs. Mannade rightly said – the masses could better relate to and understand Mohd Rafi’s rendition because he had that magic. Rafi was both class & mass. No one denies that Ustads are the best in classical music – but that doesn’t take away from Rafi’s classical abilities in FILM MUSIC. His filmy voice + abilities make him best suited for a qaawali in The Burning Train IN THE WORLD OF FILM MUSIC / PLAYBACK than any other singer including Mannade or Kishore Kumar. Why is Rafi best suuMannade acknowledges that. Aren’t you the one that said to keep this discussion to film music / playback? Whereas Kishore was mostly magic / filmy voice and not an excess of musical versatility / ability and Manna was mostly musical ability and not an excess of filmy voice / magic (hence you suggest Kishore would take many songs to great heights than Manna) – Rafi was an excess of BOTH and that is why he had the best career of all male singers in the Hindi Film Industry. This debate is between Kishore & Rafi.

    Btw Ashu – please do get back to me on the Binaca Geet Mala – I already agreed Kishore was #1 in 1971-1976. But you said he retained #1 ever since 1969 – can you explain 1980 (please stick to the precise point of this example – 1980). :)

  652. 652
    Vikram Says:

    Ashu Ji ,
    Are there any better sad songs than these? A few of them are listed.

    Yaad Na Jaaye Beete Dinon Ki
    Din Dhal Jaaye Hai Raat Na Jaaye
    Kya Se Kya Ho Gaya Bewafa Tere
    Kabhi Khud Pe Kabhi Halaat Pe
    Main Yeh Sochkar Uske Dar Se Utha Tha (My all time favorite)
    Chahoonga Main Tujhe Saanjh Savere
    Hai Duniya Usiki Zamana Usika
    Dil Jo Na Keh Saka Wohi Raaze-Dil
    Rang Or Noor Ki Baraat Kise Pesh Karoon
    Hum Bekhudi Mein Tumko Pukare Chale
    Saathi Na Koi Manzil Piya Hai Na Koi Mehfil
    Dil Ke Jharokhe Mein Tujhko Bitha Kar
    Tumne Mujhe Dekha Ho Kar Meherbaan
    Dekhi Zamane Ki Yaari Beechhade sabhi

    If you are still in self denial, then I can safely conclude that you are a blind KK follower. I don’t dispute the fact that Kishore Kumar and Mukesh have also sung some absolute gems in this category. You have to give credit where it’s due. Now where did Mehndi hassan come from? I thought the whole discussion was about the film music. The facts are there for everyone to see. The evidence is overwhelmingly stacked against Kishore Kumar in all genres. You can run but can’t hide. There will always be one Bradman. All other batsmen are just pinch-hitters in front of him.

  653. 653
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu,

    Clever strategy – I like it :)

    You use a small example but deliberately ignore the big picture. Yes I agree Kishore was the man for the songs for Padosan and I loved them. He was best suited for Mere Pyare Bindu. My own favorite from that movie was Mere Samne Wali Ladki. I’ve said many times there are songs that Kishore would be my top choice. But the singer with most songs being best suited for him – is Rafi. Hence he wins.

    Rafi’s voice was definitely more melodious in the Chor Sipahee duet. It was FULL and lots of emotions. The Dostana duet – I loved since I was 5 – because even at that age I could sense the deep emotions of the opening singer who was more melodious as well.

    Here’s an interesting comparison for you. Listen to Rafi’s Rahe Na Rahe Hum (there are multipe variations to this – there is an extended Rafi-Suman duet) and compare it with Saagar Kinare from Saagar. Both songs have the same exact tune – but Kishore’s version sounds flat, coarse, and blunt in comparison to Rafi’s. Rafi’s version is more melodious, sweeter, and silky! Kishore is great in his own way – but assessing in all bounds / domains – there is only one winner – the most versatile singer of all – Rafi. If all you care are within the limitations of Kishore – that is perfectly fine. But the singer that covers the most ground of all music lovers AND does it well – is Rafi Sahab, the greatest SINGER of all time.

    Incidentally I was watching Kishore live – he is the GREATEST entertainer for me. A complete artist. But not in terms of singer.

  654. 654
    Dipak Says:

    Totally agree Rafi for songs and KK for total entertainement .I still say re mix will better sang by orginal or control re mix in order not to spoil the original or at least credit the original singers and music directors.

  655. 655
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend manish,

    Let me correct you..”Zindagi Ek safar hai sunha” was composed by SJ , not RDB..

    u wrote:

    Btw Ashu – please do get back to me on the Binaca Geet Mala – I already agreed Kishore was #1 in 1971-1976. But you said he retained #1 ever since 1969 – can you explain 1980 (please stick to the precise point of this example – 1980).

    My reply:
    I already sent my reply. I always like to reply…If you see my blogs, i always try to reply with truth over false information spread by few people.
    My dear friend, Rafi did not retain #1 position, It was his song with Lata hit the chart as no. 1. I aske dyou to count no. of hits of 80s….It was Kishore who top the chart. Pls. count it…I already supplied link…

  656. 656
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend Vikram,

    First, let me clear your doubt..I am not blind follower of Kishore, But i like him most…Rafi and Mukesh are my other favourites. If you take their indivisual songs, then it is very difficult to say who is greatest. I always felt all 3 are Legends..And they are incomparable.
    But when i read couple of blogs from you guys (knowledgeble music person) degrading Kishore’s fame and his talent by praising others and degrading his remarkable work, i can’t stop myself then. I am sure you people don’t like Kishore, but pretend that you like him too. Reason u guys are jealous of his popularity. I can understand that. :)

    Vikram:
    U wrote:

    Ashu Ji ,
    Are there any better sad songs than these? A few of them are listed.

    Yaad Na Jaaye Beete Dinon Ki
    Din Dhal Jaaye Hai Raat Na Jaaye
    Kya Se Kya Ho Gaya Bewafa Tere
    Kabhi Khud Pe Kabhi Halaat Pe
    Main Yeh Sochkar Uske Dar Se Utha Tha (My all time favorite)
    Chahoonga Main Tujhe Saanjh Savere
    Hai Duniya Usiki Zamana Usika
    Dil Jo Na Keh Saka Wohi Raaze-Dil
    Rang Or Noor Ki Baraat Kise Pesh Karoon
    Hum Bekhudi Mein Tumko Pukare Chale
    Saathi Na Koi Manzil Piya Hai Na Koi Mehfil
    Dil Ke Jharokhe Mein Tujhko Bitha Kar
    Tumne Mujhe Dekha Ho Kar Meherbaan
    Dekhi Zamane Ki Yaari Beechhade sabhi

    Are you exhausted with the list? I must say all above songs are great and real gem…
    Here are few songs list from Kishore….
    - Duniya o Duniya
    - Jaane kya soch kar nahi Gujara (Ultimate song)
    - Dukhi man mere sun mera kahana
    - Arey o re, dhati ki tarah har dukh sahle suraj ki tarah tu jaldi ja
    (ultimate song)
    - Is se pehle ki aaj tu aaye
    - Kisi baat par mein kisi se khafa hu
    - Main Shayar Badnaam
    - Aaj tu gair sahi
    - Mere naina Sawan bhado
    - Matlabi hai log yaha par matlabi zamana
    - Manzilein apni jagah hai
    - Yadoon me wo jaaye kaha (My fav.)
    - Aaye tum yaad mujhe
    - Aa ri aaja nindiya tu le chal kahin
    - Aadmi jo kahta hai..aadmi jo sunata hai

    —I would like to mention couple of Mukesh’s songs which can’t be ignored :)

    - khushi ki wo raat aa gayi (My most fav. song)
    - e tere pyar ka gam
    - Deewano se e mat puchho (i can listen this song 100 times…Nonstop)

    Hope i clear ur doubt…
    -

  657. 657
    ashu Says:

    Manish..

    You are analysing song as per ur taste and concluding Rafi is best. i can just laugh on this…
    My dear friend, u can compare any song and u r free to say so and so is best. But don’t degrade others.
    If u see K for Kishore, Amit mentioned Kishore did not like to so “aaa aa aaa a” unnecessary, he wanted to make things easy and simplest…
    If u r talking abt “aaa aa aaa” the pls. listen “Paayal wali dekhna” and “nasha sharab me hota to nachati bottle” last line….

    My dear friend Manish, U can’t assess song, because u r baised. And i must say in this music wold everybody is biased. Everyone has their own fav. Today if we had Madan Mohan, Naushad, SDB and RDB, and would have asked to judge VOI and SA RE GA MA PA..I am sure there would be difference among their view toward one personality. So my dear friend, ur assessment is always based on ur taste.

    On ur deuts analysis:
    I must say….Rafi did not dominate Kishore in any of the duets. When i listen them , Kishore voice touches me lot. I am sure u will come up with 180 degree view.

  658. 658
    Vipul Says:

    Rafi’s sad song…. they are true gems…(Well.. I must admire those MD’s and writers for such wonderful songs…)

    Here is my favourite..
    1> Din dhal jaye hai… (The way Rafi starts is just divine… )
    2> Duniya na bhaye mohe (a semi classical one)
    3> Main yeh sochkar uske (Man gaye madan mohan sab)
    4> Chal ud ja re panchhi
    5> Babul ki duaan leti jaa (man gaye Rafi… )
    6> Jinhe naaz hai hind per wo kanha hai (great song by SD and Sahir Ludhanvi)
    7> Swapna zare phool se (great lyrics…)
    8> Yaad na jaye bite dino ki
    9> Meri kahani bhulne wale
    10> Hue hum jinke liye barbaad
    11> Aaj kal main dhal gaya
    12> Mera to jo bhi kadam
    13> Nafrat ki duniya ko chhodke (wow!)
    14> O dur ke musafir
    15> KAbhi khus pe kabhi halat pe
    16> Is duniya main aae dilwalo (Listen to this rare song… )
    17> Na kisi ki aankh ka noor hun
    18> Kah do koi na kare yanha pyar
    19> Man re to kahe na dhir dhare
    20> Rang Or Noor Ki Baraat Kise Pesh Karoon
    21> Yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaye to kya hai

    I will stop here as there are many more .. Rafi saab is divine in sad songs… I rate him number 1 above Mukesh too.
    Mukesh had naturally nasal voice and it helped him while singing sad songs. I do love his songs too but his songs were manily on same track without much modulation as he had limited range.

  659. 659
    Sudip Says:

    I think Ashu answered it for all of us by implicitly acknowledging Rafi’s greatness.

    He had to bring in Mehdi Hasan, Jagjit Singh, Mukesh, Ravindra Sathe, Bhimsen Joshi, Jasraj, Lata Mangeshkar and of course Kishore’da to counter one single person: RAFI.

    That says it all.

  660. 660
    Vipul Says:

    Rafi’s soft romantic songs…

    1> Aap ke hassen rukh pe aaj naya
    2> Kanhi ek massom si ladki
    3> rukh se zara nakab
    4> Yeh jo chilman hai
    5> Mere mehboob tujhe
    6> hai duniya usiki
    7> To kahan yeh bata
    8> Abhi na jao chhodkar
    9> Jawaniyan yeh mast mast
    10> Maine rakha hai mahobat apne afsane
    11> Ab kya missal do main tumhare
    12> Aaj ki raat mere
    13> Tere mere sapne ab ek rang hai
    14> Paav chho lene do pholon ko inayat hogi
    15> Theraiyeh hosh main aa loo
    16> Main kanhi kavi na ban
    17> Aaj mausam bada
    18> Diwana hua badal
    19> Isharo isharo main
    20> Mujko apne gale laga lo
    many more…. YOur songs give me lots of confidence and make my life beautiful…I thank you.

  661. 661
    Vipul Says:

    Sudip, I agree with you. Rafi had all the goodqualities of those singers mentioned by some 1 here and that is why he is considered most versatile. RAFI IS THE BEST.

    Someone is talking that singers are not comparable. Why not? There is comparision in every field. Do not we compare Sachin with Lara ?
    Or Murali and Shane Warne?

    What is SRGMP? It is a cometition an so there is comparison.

    If some1 want to drop out from comparison, then it is fine. But I am here to say that RAFI is te best and no one can deny that.

  662. 662
    vikram Says:

    Come on Ashu. I did not even mention ‘Man Tarpat Hari’. How can you even think of bracketing this song along with ‘Ramlal Murdabad’? Man Tarpat is divine. This one would have been beyond Kishore’s capabilities even in his dreams. I don’t know anything about Ramlal Murdabad. just by glancing at the words I can say that it is a below average song. A bad song is a bad song, whether sung by Rafi or Kishore. I am atleast accepting this, even though Pyarelal (L-P duo) thinks otherwise. According to him, Rafi has done full justice to all the songs that he sang during his lifetime. I am sure him being one of the top all time music directors, he definitely is a bigger authority on music then you and me. You, on the other hand are hell bent upon turning Kishore’s trash into treasure. Meri pyari bindu is sheer crap. There are so many kishore songs that belong to this category, especially the ones from late 70′s and 80′s. I am sure there are some rafi songs that would not measure up his high standards. Yes, this is the one category where Kishore wins all the way.

  663. 663
    Vipul Says:

    Greatest voice of last century

    http://stationhollywood.blogspot.com/2007/11/mohammad-rafi-greatest-voice-of-last.html

  664. 664
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu, quick note: I said Zindagi Ka Safar Mein (RDB) – NOT Zindagi Ek Safar (Jaikishan – he’s my favorite MD – how could I fail to know). If I mistyped – than I apologize. :)

  665. 665
    Sudip Says:

    Ashu:
    Me as a Rafian can humbly claim I am not biased. That’s why I acknowledged lot of songs where Kishore did more justice in my blogs-you ignored them. Real bias lies with some of the die hard KK fans (not you) who argue without merit.. To clear your doubts on bias, here are few more concessions:

    1. BEST entertainer of the century: KISHORE KUMAR.
    2. Best singer of the young generation: Kishore Kumar
    3. Most dominant singer of 1970s and 1980s: Kishore Kumar

    But, when it comes to the Greatest singer across all generations over the entire time period of Hindi Film music, the parameters of judgment are very different..There is only one answer: RAFI

  666. 666
    vikram Says:

    Ashu,
    I would definitely put Kishore’s Duniya -O- Duniya, Aaye Tum yaad Mujhe, Dukhi Man Mere, Koi Humdum Na Raha, Jaane Kya soch kar and Manzilein Apni Jagah Hain right there with rafi’s sad song collection. Some of Mukesh’s songs like Jaane Kahan Gaye, Ye Mera Diwanapan Hai, O Jaane Wale, Saranga Teri Yaad Mein, Zuban Pe Dard Bhari are as good as that of rafi’s or Kishore’s. Manna Dey’s Tu Pyaar Ka Sagar Hai, Pucchho Na Kaise Maine, Kaun Aaya Mere Man Ke Dware and Hansane Ki Chah Ne Kitana, are also deserving to belong with the best.
    Ashu ji why would we hate Kishore? There is no reason to do so. You hate somebody when he or she is better than the person you idolise. As far as singing is concerned, my idol Rafi was the best. I have always accepted Kishore’s greatness. Nobody can ignore kishore for what he has given us all. The problem starts when your comparisons of Kishore Kumar with Rafi go wrong and ugly. Rafi was a saintly person. The way he has been maligned by some of the KK fanatics is anybody’s guess. Even Kishore had wholeheartedly accepted Rafi as the best ever. It’s hard to fathom then why you guys keep comparing the two?

  667. 667
    Dhani Ram Says:

    The debate is already over and as was to happen has been won by Rafi Sahib hands down.Actually there was nothing to debate about..The question itself shouldn’t have been raised.It is musical sacrilege to compare anybody with Rafi.

    Again and again the question of popularity has been raised.Sony TV tamasha has been cited.TV is actually a butcher of music.It shouldn’t be mentioned in any discussion of music.But listen to Radio World Space.It has 2 channels devoted to Hindi music. One is Jhankar devoted to contemporary film music.Obviously it has neither Rafi nor Kishore.The other is Farishta devoted to golden oldies.Here on this channel Rafi has an overwhelming presence.Kishore also is heard sometimes.He sang some popular numbers but for his one song there are fifty of Rafi of a bertter quality.

    Someone has said that Rafi hasn’t sung sad songs.This is just ignorance.Already informed participants have listed some of Rafi’s sad songs.Rafi’s output was so large and quality so high that it requires a great deal of time to compile even a fraction of his best.Nobody,including even Mukesh and Talat,could match him in conveying the pathos.I just add a couple of his songs to the lists provided by Vikram and Sudip:

    Is bhari dunia mein koi bhi hamara na hua.

    Karvan guzar gaya gubar dekhte rahe.

    Tujhe kya sunaun main dil rubah

    Chalo aaj phir us gali mein

    Yeh dunia agar mil bhi jaye to kya hai

    Daaman mein daag laga baithe

    Koi mujhse poocche ki tum meire kya ho

    Maine chand aur sitaaron ki tamanna ki thi

    Baazi kisi ne piar ki jeeti ya haar di

    Na jhatko zulf se paani yeh moti toot jayenge

    Mujhe le chalo aaj phir us gali mein

    Ai Watan Ai Watan humko teri kasam

    Sau baar janam lenge

    Yeh zindgi ke mele dunia mein kam na honge

    Tum ek baar muhabbat ka imtehaan to lo

    Parwar digaare alam tera hi hai sahara

    Toote hue khwaabon ne

    Tere bina soone nain hamare

    If the above songs cited at random from memory don’t convince a person of Rafi’s supremacy in singing even sad songs,further effort at argument is futile.

    Yes, Rafi was a playback singer.Playback singing has had a lot of variety.Rafi oudid all other singers in all genres.There have been one song wonders like Narendra Chanchal and Subheer Sen.Some like Kishore have sung a few memorable songs in just one or two genres.But Rafi’s output has been tremendous in all genres.So long as he lived the only other singer with comparable output and quality was Lata.Who was superior is a matter of opinion.Probably Rafi had a slight edge.But it doesn’t merit argument.They have been the greatest singers of all times.

    When we say that Rafi was better than all other singers in each genre,we have ample proof to substantiate it.He was better than Manna in classical singing.Which classical songs has Manna sung?
    Laaga chunri mein daag.Rafi could have sung it equally well.Look at a hard classical song
    sung by Rafi with an established classical singer:Baat chalat nai chunri rang daari re.Listen to it decide who sings it better.

    Take kawaalis.Rafi’s qawaalis sung for films are well known.I mention here just two:Aankhon mein tumhaare jalwe hain and Yah kurbaan,tuhi bata khudaaya(in Kabuliwala).Rafi was a perfect kawaali singer.Two top kawaali singers in the subcontinent have been Sabri brothers and Nusrat Ali.Tell me any of there kawaalis that Rafi couldn’t have rendered.

    Pray which bhajan singer or ghazal singer in or outside films can match Rafi?Rafi wasn’t a one genre singer.So obviously he didn’t sing as many ghazals as,say,Jagjit Singh.But whichever ghazal he sang,he sang with perfection

    There is one genre of singing called bolian.I know of only one song sung in Hindi films in this style and it has been sung by Rafi with Asha.The song is:Tum rooth ke mat jaana,mujhse kya shikwa deewaana hai deewaana.Is there anything of such great beauty sung by Asha with Kishore?Please mention for my enlightenment.I have great admiration for Ashaji as a singer and she must be a good judge of music.I don’t dispute what she says about Kishore.She is a career singer and can have vested interest in making certain statements.She has sung her best duets with Rafi.One I have cited above.Another was sung way back in 50′s and is still more popular than any that she sang with Kishore.That is:Uden jab jab zulfein teri,kwairion ke dil machlein O Jindei meriei.Cite any kishore Asha duet of equal popularity.

    A singer who sang thousands of songs for thirty years for an industry where there was so much competition was really matchless.There has been nobody like Rafi and probably none will be in future as well.

    Just one last point.When immature debaters begin to lose the argument,they begin to harp on considerations other than the subject of debate.One participant seems to be interested more in speculating the age of the people than in comprehending what music is.I am sure we are discussing on this site the merits and demerits of Rafi and Kishore and not those of the participants.

  668. 668
    oomer bismillah Says:

    i dont really leave any comments but think on this one i will im a rafi fan but also a kishore fan i think rafi was the better singer , saying that i also think kishore was good too , i dont think you can compare two great artists ,rafi was number one in all aspects but i feel the only singer who can ever come close to him is kishore rafi definatelyu had the more versality and edge over everyone.

    1 mohd rafi
    2 kishore kumar

    after these two great singers well the rest are just there.

  669. 669
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend Sudip,
    I can just laugh on ur comment…ha ha ha.

    Rafi can’t be compare with other legends like “Mehdi Hasan, Jagjit Singh, Mukesh, Ravindra Sathe, Bhimsen Joshi, Jasraj, Lata Mangeshkar”. And i am not shy to appreciate Rafi’s greatness, why should i , it is you guys who really shy to appreciate others and He was great like Kishore. Whatever u peole write against Kishore, it will increase his popularity, so keep it up…

    First of all, I never compare Legends, but i keep Rafi, Kishore and Mukesh in one category and Bhimsen, Jaraj, Jagjeet and Ravindra Sathe in other category. YOu can’t mix both. Though Kishore and Rafi sang Qawaali, Ghazal, Geet et, i can’t compare them with Jagjeet in Ghazal and other specialist singers.

    My dear friend Vipul,
    - I think Kishore is gretest in sad song, Mukesh is very close to him and 3rd is Rafi….
    -I think Kishore and Rafi, both are greatest in Romantic…Noone come close to both. Personally i like kishore most..

  670. 670
    ashu Says:

    Dhani Ram,

    This debate has no end….This has been going on since last 37 yrs., and will continue forever, and who are you to say this debate is over..

    This debate will never end….
    U wrote:

    There is one genre of singing called bolian.I know of only one song sung in Hindi films in this style and it has been sung by Rafi with Asha

    My reply:
    What a logic. i m very impressed :) :)…I feel really shame to reply u….
    Does it mean ONly Rafi and Asha are greatest and rest are zero.

    And i never derail from topic, it is you guys always derail.. Please read all my post..If u guys don’t get anythign, then start talking abt Qawwalli, ghazal and blah blah.. I already replied on that.
    No doubt, Rafi sang more songs than Kishore….But he is behind in quality.
    You can do some analyses an dcome back with data…
    Don’t assume things….Mr. Dhani Ram

  671. 671
    ashu Says:

    Dhani Ram..
    U wrote:

    That is:Uden jab jab zulfein teri,kwairion ke dil machlein O Jindei meriei.Cite any kishore Asha duet of equal popularity.

    My reply:
    Talk to 10 music lover, you hav eliberty to take Rafians, Ask them best duet of Asha…
    Kishore stood on top. People will remind
    - Jaane ja dhoodhata phir raha
    - Ek main aur ek tu
    - ha tu hi wohi dil ne jise apna kaha
    - meri soni meri tammana

    All songs will come after these..aur ha ‘Ode jab jab zilfe’ will never be in top 10 of asha duets..Rafi, he did not tune with Asha, because of her extra ordinary talent. There was only guys who could challenge Asha, and that is none other than KISHORE. It is accepted by ASHA….

  672. 672
    ashu Says:

    My dear Vikram,

    This feud is started by rafians, Only they are to be blamed. Kishore fans always say that Kishore is great, but they never compare him with Rafi, because they don’t have any doubt abt his greatness.

    I experienced only Rafians have doubt abt Rafi’s greatness. That is why they always engaged themselve in such endless debate.

    Fore.g. Read other forum in Yoodleeyoo.com
    - Kishore and SDB relation
    – Rafians poke their nose in this forum stating SDB -Rafi combination are grater. Did anyone ask them?
    There are many blogs like this.
    Who is greatst among singers? everybody knows, There are many evidence. If u guys keep ur eyes closed, then we can’t help.

  673. 673
    Sudip Says:

    Ashu:
    “This feud is started by rafians, Only they are to be blamed. Kishore fans always say that Kishore is great, but they never compare him with Rafi, because they don’t have any doubt about his greatness.”

    -NOW I HAVE TO OPENLY DOUBT YOUR INTEGRITY.. Around January 20th all the posts were reconciliatory. Every one agreed that “pasand is apna apna” and both singers were great.
    Look at post dated January 20th 12:09 pm. Things were quiet and friendly.. Who has the next post after 12:09 pm? It is a person with the name “ASHU”. After that the debate erupted again. Now just shut up and don’t start again.

  674. 674
    Dhani Ram Says:

    Those who wish to wallow in shame have full freedom to do so whil the honourable lot will go ahead with some solid arguments in the teeth of intemperance,abuse and the slang of the slums in which the drum beaters of Kishore specialise.On this site itself one worthy has filled his entire post with Kishore Zindabad-Rafi Murdabad.Even poor Kishore deserves admirers of better quality.I really pity the man! On Sony TV he is being exploited by buffoonery and on this site he has a bunch of frivolous ranters to root for him.Compare this with the urbanity,sophistication and sagacity of someone like Mr XXX, a model Rafi acolyte.

    I repeat again that there have never been any grounds for debate
    on the issue.It is only the main na maoon intransigence of the
    Kishore rabble that is motivatiing Rafi’s admirers to carry on the squabble despite heavy toll on their busy schedule. Their only purpose is to make the musically illiterate see a ray of light.

    Misreading,misrepresenting and befuddlement is the trick of the trade of Kishoreans.Tum rooth ke mat jana.Where did I say that this single song made Rafi and Asha superior to all others.The whole point of my argument has been distorted and deflected.Let me repeat what I said in my previous post,which though written in the simplest language, has challenged the capacities of the dim-witted.I cited Tum rooth ke mat jana only as an instance of Rafi’s mastery of all genres of singing including the rarest of the rare bolian.Kishore never sang anything of thiis kind.He didn’t step out of his groove.Whenever he tried he made a mess of it.Unlike his mindless paratroopers he was very wise in this.Like Mukesh he knew his limitations well and accepted them gracefully.When he sang Ik chatur naar,he frankly admitted to Manna De that he couldn’t go the whole hog in classical touches.To touch great heights in spite of one’s limitations show guts,grit and determination which Kishore undoubtedly had just as did Mukesh.Only Rafi had an unlimited range.Only he was capable of singing any type of song with perfect ease, superb melody and stupendous technical skill.It is for this reason that I keep Rafi in a category apart from the other luminaries of Hindi film music.Rafi is like the ocean while all others are streams.Streams too have their value.

    None of the very fundamental issues raised by me regarding music and Rafi’s place in it vis a vis other singers,mainly Kishore,have been addressed by Kishore specialists.Only a single warrior is left in the field whose weapons are all rusted and blunt.He himself doesn’t know what he is talking about.I wish someone with some knowledge of music were there to fend for Kishore.

    Let me cite two other gems of Rafi and Asha:

    Main piar ka rahi hoon teri zulf ke saye mein zara deir thahar jaaoon.

    Saathi haath baraana,ek akela thak jayega mil kar bojh uthana.

    Where do Kishore Asha duets stand in comparison?

    The funny thing is that Kishore trumpeters hop from one argument to another inconsitently.First they talk about the criterion of popularity and when it is shown that Rafi is by far the most popular singer(I cited Radio World Space),they take refuge in quality.That is what the Kishore sentinel is doing.When I cite Udein jab jab zulfein teri as a 50′s song still very popular,he makes a somersault and harps on the qulity of Kishore Asha duets.I have heard Udein jab jab on World Space times without number.In terms of quality who says that tum rooth ke mat jana,
    main piar ka rahi hoon etc are not superior to Kishore Asha duets?When it shown that Rafi is superior in quality as well,a shower of abuse is hurled.

    One sad song of Rafi in case it has been omitted by Vikram,Vipul or me is:Tu kahaan yeh bataa is nasheeli raat mein,maanei na mera dil deewana.A song of the highest quality and greatest sweetness.

  675. 675
    Sriram Says:

    Dear all…espec Binu, Sanjay, Sudip, P. Haldar, myk

    I am indebted to all of you for pointing out such gems to me in the course of the debate. Songs I had never heard before, or even underestimated (e.g tum nahin ya hum nahin), I was able to go back and listen to.

    The debate will never be over, imho. But I am glad the debate exists as I have been able to broaden my knowledge just by going through these comments and following the links.

    After reading these comments, I happened to watch some Amitabh songs, and on mulling over it, I feel that peerless though Rafiji is, KK too is incomparable in songs such as
    – Janu meri jaan
    – Tera mujhse hai pehle (compare with female version).
    – Dilbar mere kab tak mujhe
    – Manzilen apni jagah
    – dil aaj shayar hai
    – Tum saath ho jab apne, duniya ko dikha

    Btw, am aware that not all of above songs are by Amitabhji — but his songs were what made it clear to me that, in terms of providing entertainment, both are probably umatched.

    If the x-axis is a measure of the singers range of songs (genres/actors/MDs) and the y-axis measures a combined metric of various attributes (technical perfection, voice quality, suiting the actor (Diversion — since we are talking about playback, one measure of success should be that the audience feel the actor is actually singing the lines in question i.e contribution to overall music experience. e.g in one of the links, I heard Yesudasji singing for Amitabh, but it was not convincing. Even Main Pal Do Pal, great as it is standalone, is simply not convincing in the movie because you (I) can’t feel Amitabh is really singing it), what we will find is that both KK and Rafi’s graphs will be inverted V’s (with the same height i.e degree of perfection), but with different bases (i.e Rafiji reaches perfection in a greater variety of songs).

    So much for my analysis. I dont feel I am biased because I enjoy both singers equally (though sing more Rafiji’s songs, my voice being softer than required to sing KK convincingly). I did not intend to write such a long post, just wanted to thank the knowledgeable folks, then thought I should contribute my 2 paisa.

    I have not been able to listen to Manna Dey ji’s upare gagan vishaal. If some kindly soul could point me in the right direction.

    Thanks to all
    Sriram

  676. 676
    Sriram Says:

    To continue my analysis, I will go further and say that imo the graphs of *all* the greatest singers (Saigal, Mukesh, Manna Dey, HK, Lata, Rafi, KK, Asha, and yes, Alka, Udit) will be inverted Vs of more or less the *same height* (i.e viewer satisfaction on a weighted set of metrics) — they differ *only* in the *size of the base* of the V (range/capability/actors). For e.g even Mukesh ji is incomparable in so many songs, but his voice was suited to so few actors (perfect fit for only Raj Kapoor afaik).

    If there is anything I would like to contribute to the discussion, it is that different singers will have differing scores on the various criteria (technical, voice quality, movie enhancement), so no one could be (or is) the best in all of these measures over all songs.

    In order to measure the best, we have to construct a weighted set of measures (the weights are subjective), assign points to each singer for each song for each criterion (again subjective), calculate weighted score for each singer for each song, add up the scores to find the best.

    I estimate this will take a century or two for even two singers :-). For the moment, what say we just enjoy their songs?

    Regards
    Sriram

  677. 677
    Manish Kumar Says:

    Ashu: I understand your frustrations. I don’t think you can generalize – both Rafi & Kishore fans are equally guilty. Sometimes it is a Rafian – another time it will be a KKKlan member :)

  678. 678
    Sudip Says:

    In this post, I will not delve on who is better (as promised to Ashu), but lay out my perspective on the analysis methods (just like Sriram).

    1. I think we have laid too much emphasis on “who overtook whom”. To me, it does not matter. Even Pankaj Mullick can be the greatest singer in Hindi films though he “overtook” no one in popularity in his lifetime. When we talk of the greatest singer, we need to look at the bigger picture.

    2.The voice is just an instantaneous element, it does give us an instant impression, but does not say all. For example: I found Yesudas’s voice to be of extremely good quality, Bhupinder was too good in some songs, Anup Ghosal was great in “Tujhse Naaraz”.. Does not give a wholesome picture..Singing for Johnie Walker is supposed to be a bit rusty…One has to factor that in..

    3. The era and associated circumstances are very important. What recording facilities were available at that time? Did the singer bring any fundamental change in singing? Was he a pioneer in some genre? There is a reason why Kishore idolizes Saigal..To the modern ear, Sonu Nigam is 100 times more attractive than Saigal. Does this mean, Sonu Nigam is a better singer than Saigal? Most likely NO.

    4. How perfect/authentic was the singer in bringing out nuances of a genre? Example: Does the Bhatiali (boatman’s song in Bengal) sound like Bhatiali? That way Sachin Dev Burman was authentic in his treatment. “O Majhi re”, though hugely popular was not as authentic (just an example, not to demean Kishore).

    5. Since we are judging film music, does the singer represent the scenes/sequences well in his expressions?

    Of course the base qualities like perfection and voice matter a lot too..

  679. 679
    Vipul Says:

    Someone wrote here:

    “And i never derail from topic, it is you guys always derail.. Please read all my post..If u guys don’t get anythign, then start talking abt Qawwalli, ghazal and blah blah.. I already replied on that.
    No doubt, Rafi sang more songs than Kishore….But he is behind in quality.”

    My reply : I agree wit him. Rafi sang more songs than KK many MD’s approached him. KK was non existent till 1969. So we all agree that Rafi was more preferred than KK so he sang more.

    Now his second stament about quality… He said Rafi was behind in quality than KK. (This is the best analysis by him.. hats off. I can just agree)

    I again agree with him. Rafi sang lots of songs till 1969 and KK sang very few. Quality of rafi songs were very low. I am not sure why every1 call 1950 and 1960 as Golden Period of Hindi music. I am sure that they must be referring to songs sung by other singers (other than Rafi)
    KK came into lime light after 1969 and quality of Hindi music improved. However Rafi was right there till 1980 to provide non quality songs. so there was a balance (between quality songs and bad songs)

    Only after Rafi’s death 1980, balance got tilted towards quality songs. KK sang many quality songs in 80′s Remember those Jitendra songs…

    Taki ho Taki oo taki taki
    Naino main sapna…
    Mama miya pom pom…
    Ek aankh marun to parda
    Galo pe yej kaise nishaan
    Icecream khaogi picture dekhogi… ha ha
    Uiima uuima musshkil yeh kya ho gayi. sadi (nikal) hawa ho gayi
    Zhopdei main charpai…
    Mana mana maine mana main hun mawali (and many more….)

    All these were real quality songs and required lots of singing talent.

  680. 680
    Vipul Says:

    Dhani Raam,
    You asked a question about Kishore Asha duets?
    Where do Kishore Asha duets stand in comparison?

    Coud you please thorow some lights on KK-Asha duets of 80′s? Do not you think these were high standard songs (In other words real quality) songs and both singers complimented each other very well.

    Some more examples ….
    Lakdi nahi hai to ladki ka khmba hai.. bakbak mat kar (aaisa kuchhh)
    Wah wah khel shru ho gaya…. kuchh mila kuchh gaya…. etc. etc…
    do you want me to write many more? I think one person here knows more than me .. he can give you more of such QUALITY songs…

  681. 681
    Dhani Ram Says:

    A couple of incomparably beautiful duets sung by Asha with Rafi:

    Ik pardesi mera dil le gaya jate jate meetha meetha gam de gaya
    (a 50′s song still very popular.It is regularly sung by Gurdas Mann at his concerts).

    Dekh hamein awaz na dena O bedard zmaane

    Raat bhar ka hai mehmaan andhera kis ke roke ruka hai savera

    Ik paisa de de O babu O jaane wale babu ik paisa de de (perhaps the saddest duet ever sung)

    Listen to all these songs and you will appreciate the magic of Rafi’s voice.Asha is not able to match Rafi at all.Even at slightly higher notes her voice begins to squeeze,struggle and muffle.While Rafi goes through his paces with effortless ease,Asha forces her voice out.The effort and strain are clearly visible.

    And here is a gem of a duet sung by Asha with Rafi:

    Kaise samjhaun bari na samajh ho

    It is one of the most beautiful duets ever sung but Rafi carries it singlehandedly.Asha doesn’t have in her voice the volume required for singing this mellifluous song.

    For sad songs,after Rafi,are undoubtedly Mukesh(if Rafi has a peer in quality,it is only this singer though I’d not like to argue about it.We all have our personal choices) and Talat Mahmood.

  682. 682
    ashu Says:

    Dear friend Manish,

    I think you can do better as DAARUWAALA….Just predict things as per situation.
    My dear friend, I m not frustrated…I can’t be…

    You are moving away from topic.

  683. 683
    Vipul Says:

    Few more songs where Rafi was better than Asha.

    1> Deewana hua badal
    2> Bade hai Dil ke kale
    3> Yaar chulbula hai….

    Asha sounded loud and nasal on high notes… Rafi was at ease and sounded more sweeter….

  684. 684
    Dhani Ram Says:

    VIPUL

    I love your inimitable tongue in the cheek style.Indeed I can’t think of anything comparable to the duets you have mentioned.They have to be acknowledged as the finest works of art simply because K/A lent their voices to them.And we have to admit that whatever was favoured by the Midas touch of K/A turned into gold irrespective of the fact whether it was musical or not.

    Meanwhile,I must admit my inferior tastes in music.I heard today Rafi’s Tujhe kya sunaun main dil rubha tere samne mera haal hai.I can’t understand why Rafi was given such a song to sing when the sterling voice of K was available to carry it to unimaginable heights.I don’t even understand why music directors of such amazing depth and film makers of great sagacity persisted with Rafi from 50′s to 80′s giving him by far the largest number of songs to sing.There was quite clearly a grand conspiracy to assault and destroy the musical sensibilties of the gullible Indian audiences.

    Meanwhile,Vipul,can you think of a worse song than the one mentioned above?I have heard this song a few thousand times and am still mesmerised by it but it only shows the debasement of my tastes.Now can you find a singing voice so bad that in articulating a single note there are so many variatiions in volume?Rafi’s multi-tonality disables him to be even a street singer.Rafi’s duets sung with Lata Mangeshkar are mistakenly regarded as the best duets ever sung.To cite just one that appeals to me immensely:Door basaa lein dil ki jannat jis ko zmaana loote na piar ka bandan toote na.What odd tastes have I? One Rafi Suraiya duet transports me:Bekraar hai koi aa mere dildaar aa.There is Tere bina soone nain hamare and hiundreds of others.But what are such duets compared to this divine one:Accha to hum chalte hain?I am moved even by such unheard of songs as Dil ka bhanwar karei pukar piar ka raz soono re.How horrible!

    An unpardonably serious defect in Rafi’s voice was that he could sing even without orchestration or minimum orchestration.Songs like Maine shayad tumhe pehle bhi kabhi dekha hai are withoiut the accpaniment of much orchestration.Don’t you believe that good quality music is one that drowns or smothers the voice of the singer?

    Meanwhile,I am reminded of another duet by Rafi/Asha:Jab se tumhein dekha hai aankhon mein tumhi tum ho.Let me know if you have ever heard a more horrendous jugalbandi than this?

  685. 685
    Probal Das Says:

    Dhani Ram, All you are mentioning is useless, purana, pre-historic songs. No one cares about these sub-standard songs. Look at Vipul’s list. It is so modern. Absolutely great!

    I watched one of Bappi Lahiri’s programs where he was respectfully recalling Kishore Kumar’s last song. “Guru guru ho jao shuru, pyar mein dub jao guru”

    What a SENTIMENTAL song!! Utmost quality!!

  686. 686
    Vipul Says:

    Dhani Ram,
    Tujhe kya sunao main dilruba sung by Rafi was a classic. However there was a similar song (same tune) by Talat and there was a debate on who copied whom.
    The song was “Yeh Hawa yeh raat yeh Chandni teri Ek adda pe nissar hai”
    Talat was superb in that song. His vibrating silky voice was really touching.

    I would like to mention here Talat as one my favorite singers. I understand that he had limitations but I liked his voice.
    Here are some songs by Talat,
    1> Yeh Hawa yejh raat yej chandni
    2> Tasveer banata hun
    3> Chal diya karvan (Song picturised on Shammi) . My personal favourite
    4> Jalete hai jiske liye
    5> Sham -e gum ki kasam
    6> Sine main sulgate hai aarmaan
    7> Mera karar le ja mujhe bekarar
    8> Aandhe jahan ke
    9> Milte hi ankhe dil hua diwana (duet with Shamshad)
    10> Aanso samaj ke kyon mujhe
    11> Mahubat hi na jo samje wo zalim pyar
    12> Meri Yaad main tumna
    13> Zindgi dene wale sun
    14> Pya per bus to nahi hai…
    15> Phir wohi sham wohi gum…

    OMG.. I can go on and on with Talat songs…
    After Rafi, If I have to choose some1 then I think I will have to choose more than one singer.
    Talat for his silky voice. Manna for his classical touch, Mukesh for his sad songs.

  687. 687
    Vipul Says:

    Dhani Raam,
    Could you tell me or post a link to this song u mentioned
    “Maine shayad tumhe pehle bhi kabhi dekha hai”

    I have not heard it yet.
    BTW, have you heard Rafis’ “Is duniya main aae dilwalo dil ka lagana khel nahi”. A really rare and nice song in terms of lyrics.

  688. 688
    Vipul Says:

    Prabal Das, Wow! what a song you have mentioned…
    Guru guru ho jao shuru…. very nice! May be one day I will develop my taste for more of such songs…
    Dhani Raam mentioned “Aachha to hum chalte hai”. Another gem… I cant even think of any better song than that one.

    I have few more… “Gori tere aang aang main lege hua …. dhintara dhintara teri aadaon ne mara”

    We blame few MD’s and writers for double meaning songs we got in 90′s. Songs like “Choli ke pechhe” or “sarkiyelo khatiya” etc. But actually trend was started in 80′s.

    In 80′s, Hindi music was raped by few MD’s and writers. Singers though not directly involved supported that rape!

  689. 689
    Sudip Says:

    My favourite Rafi-Asha duets are:

    1. Phir milogi kabhi is baat ka waada karlo
    2. Sawan aye ya na aye

    I do not consider the following duets:
    1. Deewana hua badal
    2. Abhi na jao chodkar

    They are Rafi solos to me…Even Ila Arun in place of Asha would not have made a difference.

  690. 690
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend Vipul,

    I am sure Rafi could have not justice to all those songs you have mentioned under Bappi’s composition: :)
    The best Asha duets

    1. E duniya wale puchhenge Mulawat hui ky abaat hui
    2. Saara pyar tumhara maine baandh liya
    3. Hawa ke saath saath
    4. Dillagi ne di hawa thoda se dhua utha..(Most romatic song)
    and so many…

  691. 691
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend,

    I have not heard anyone saying 50s music is great. I believe 60s and 70s music were great as well.
    Even i feel music from 89 to 95 was also good.

  692. 692
    xxx Says:

    mr.vipul,,

    u missed d real one wen talat teamed up wd dada in taxi driver,, hope u got it,, lata sung female version of dat song..

    ashuji,,

    plz listen to sdb & sj in 50s,, m sure u will find 50s as most prolific & melodious…

  693. 693
    Sudip Says:

    Vipul:
    The other day I was listening to the Talat version of Chal ud ja re panchi. I believe it was HMV who had Talat record this song. I used to think no one could sing this song other than Rafi (incidentally it was Rafi’s personal favorite).
    But after listening to the Talat version, I changed my opinion. I think Talat added his own silken touch to the song.

  694. 694
    Dhani Ram Says:

    Vipul and Sudip

    I think we are on the same wavelength and have similar tastes in music.There may be preference for this song rather than that but essentially we like soft,sweet and melodious musicn not noisy one.

    What actually all of us including you,Vikram,XXX,Maniksh and I are combatting is a certain kind of philistine taste in music.I find it bizarre that someone should say that music of 50′s was not great.I find a song like Chal shuroo ho ja to be horrendous.It is what is called cacophany.Someone who likes such songs may still like some of Rafi’s songs but will find Talat to be simply intolerable.He will never be able to appreciate Sahgal’s Babul mora nahar chhooto jaaye.I have nothing against Kishore.He was there tio make a success of his career and for a time he was eminently successful.But his style of singing by and large is such that I don’t find it enjoyble at all.Much of what he has sung is just trash and an assault on refined sensibilities.Speaking for myself,I have a huge collection of music which includes Classical,ghazals,folk songs(Reshma etc),a large number of cassettes by all the leading singers of Hindi film industry upto the end of 70′s but I don,t have a single song of Kishore by choice.Somehow I don’t like him.I may also say that with the rise of Kishore,genuine lovers of music stopped listening to film music and turned to ghazals.That was the reason for the popularity of ghazals in that period.Mehndi Hassan and Ghulam Ali came into limelight because music lovers began to find film music insipid.

    Speaking of Talat,Vipul, I entirely agree with you about the silken quality of his voice and his slow and melodious style of singing.It is unfortunate that the style of singing that became a rage when Kishore came to occupy the centre-stage killed the spirit of great music and Talat was not in demand.He lived much longer than his last song:Yeh hawa yeh raat yeh chandni but was never asked to sing for any film thereafter.That is indeed a pity.His son in a recent interview said that Talat was disgusted with the kind of music being churned out by film makers.

    Great music is one that doesn’t touch just the surface of your mind but enters the very depths of your soul.Talat’s songs do that.Mukesh is also wonderful.Today only heard Mukesh’s:Jhoomti chali hawa yaad aa gaya koi.What a great song!But can those for whom the height of music lies in that churlish song Chal shuroo ho ja like this golden song by Mukesh?

    The question then is not about which singer one prefers but about how we define music.Indian musicologists regard music as a form of worship of God.Great and true music restores you to your inner self.It gives you the same kind of experience as a sage gets in contemplation.While listening to it,your eyes close,you shut the rest of the world out and are completely absorbed.Now I can cite numerous songs of Rafi,Talat,Mukesh and Hemant that give this kind of experienceI am afraid I can’t say the same about Kishore.

    Vipul,you have provided a fair list of Talat’s golden songs.May I add a few more from memory:

    1.Sab kuchh luta ke hosh mein aaye to kya kiya.

    2.Beraham aasmaan meri manzil bataa hai kahaan.

    3.Baichain jigar betaab nazar yeh dil hai kisi ka deewana haye deewaana

    4.Jaayen to jaayen kahaan ( XXX has already alluded to it.Lata is no match for Talat in this song),

    5.Humse aaya na gayaa tum se bhulalya na gayaa( this song was filmed on either Ashok Kumar or his brother.Isn’t it ironical that Ashok Kumar didn’t use Kishore’s voice? Any explanation?)

    6.Aasman wale teri dunia se dil ghabhra gaya

    Now the question:who is better? Talat,Mukesh or Rafi? When one listens to yeh hawa etc one thinks it is Talat;when one listens to aawaz na do or mujhe tum se kucchh na chahiye etc one thinks it is Mukesh and when one listens to tujhe kya sunaaun etc one thinks it is Rafi.I can cite a long list of songs by Mukesh sung soulfully.Kishore perhaps had a voice but soul is missing from most of his songs.

    All said and done,I regard Rafi to be ahead of both Mukesh and Talat.The latter two had their limitations also.As I said in an ealier post,they sing very well in a groove.When they venture out of that,weaknesses in their voices begin to jar.Talat was even more restricted.Mukesh could sing a light song like: Naina hain jaadu bhare o gori tere naina hain jaadu bhare or dum dum diga diga etc which Talat couldn’t.Similarly,in songs like Ho ke majboor mujhe usne bulayya hoga Rafi outclasses Talat,Bhupendra and Baatish by far.Similarly, I will give equal marks to Mukesh and Rafi for Ramayya vastaa vaiyya,Rafi is far better in Dil ne phir yaad kiya barq si lehrai hai and in Jo bore kare yaar ko us yaar se tauba.Nevertheless in one of the best songs ever sung Saaranga teri yaad mein nain hue bechain Rafi couldn’t stand upto Mukesh.

    Speaking of Asha’s duets I can think of three with Mukesh wihich again appear to me much better than the stuff she sang with Kishore:

    1. Phir na kije meri gustaakh nigaahi ka gila

    2. Voh subha kabhi to aayegi

    3.Saath ho tum aur raat jawan neend kise ab chain kahaan

    Vipul,Maine shayad is one of Rafi’s best songsI can’t provide you any internet link but I can provide you the name of the film after checking.From memory I can say that it is perhaps from Barsaat ki raat.I have this song on a cassette and shall confirm the name of the film.The great quality of this song is that it is sung without any or little orchestration.I can think of one song by Mukesh where little orchesta is used Kuchh sheyar sunaata hun main.

    One more quality of Rafi’s singing is that he seems to be communicating each word to the listener.That is,as if he were talking to you in music.The way he articulates the words draws the attention of the listener.For example,his Ae phoolon ki raani.

    Probhal Das,just one word for you.Songs cited by me are purana,maybe prehistoric but certainly not useless just as Rabindernath Tagore is purana.Do you still read Tagore and admire him or read something rubbish comparable to Chal Shuroo ho jaa?

  695. 695
    Vipul Says:

    xxx, How can I miss “Jaye toJaye kanha” … A very good one…. Thx

  696. 696
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend Sudip,
    I am agreed to your last blog. Every singer add “Little extra” (borrowed this from one of the site member) to their version as per their comfort.

    Mr. xxx,
    I know 50s music…what abt 60s and early 70s of SDb and SJ composition?

  697. 697
    Vipul Says:

    Dhani Raam, Thanks a lot for your wonderful post. I agree with all your Talat songs. they were truly gem. One more from Daag (Dilipkumar) version was …Koi nahi mera is duniya main.. Ashiyan barbaad hai.. A nice one..
    I was listening to Rafi yesterday “Jine naaz hai Hind per wo kanha hai”…
    A perfect combo of Sahir, SD and Rafi.
    and when I heard “Tu kanha yeh bata” .. I have no doubt his superb voice quality and control.. He just can’t go wrong!

    You talked about Mukesh. I used to lov his voice (and I still do) when I was in my teens (from 17 to 21) . The period when most of us fall in love for the first time :).
    .His songs were really soulful. I must say that I developed my taste for Rafi after 21 and now I am totally Rafian as I know he is a true master and could sing anything.

    About Mukesh, I think since most of the great songs you might already know.. But I will throw some very rear good songs…
    1> Bahe na kabhi nain se neer (Film – Dr Vidya and song picturised on Dev Anand)
    2> Dil ki Pareshaniyan .. Ishq ki veeraniyan (Movie Humlog)
    3> Aae paysse di bezuban…
    4> Dil tujhe diya tha rakhne ko tune dil ko jalake rakh diya (Malhar)
    5> Tara tute Duiniya dekhe (Malhar)
    6> Tule na dil tute na (Andaz – starring RK and Dilipkumar)

    These are pretty old songs (late 40s and early 50s) but really great one by Mukesh.

  698. 698
    Sudip Says:

    Adding to Dhani Ram:

    I think it also has to do with the personality of the listener. With 80% certainty I can observe a person for 10 minutes and conclude if he/she prefers Rafi or Kishore or for that matter, Lata or Asha. I have seen most males who are extrovert, outbound mostly like Kishore. The soft, inbound personalities prefer Rafi. This is where Ashu feels Kishore touches his heart and Dhani Ram or me feel Rafi touches our heart. When we listen to a song we put our personality in context of that situation. With Rafi, I always feel it is my mind singing.

    Don’t laugh-but Kumar Sanu realized this… he imitated the bass of Kishore, the nasal quality of Mukesh and the softness of Rafi. So he would try to punch everything into a song.. The cocktail was horrible, to say the least.

  699. 699
    xxx Says:

    ashuji,,
    60s and 70s wre indeed gr8.. but 50s were unmatchable in terms of quality.. naushad sahab was stunnig from baiju baawra to mugleaazam, how can we forget naushad sahab’s gr8 contribution to 50s, he was first to introduce “gayaki ang” into filmi music, and first who really exploited strenths of kohinoor rafi sahab…..

    now regarding sachin da, his variety in 50s was juss unbelievable, juss have a look into his 50s work baazi to jaal to pyaasa to kala pani to kala baazar(1960) to chalti ka naam gaadi to suajata,, and if u noticed dat how well dada exploited d strenths of kishore da in chalti ka naam gaadi, paying guest, munimji,, you have earlier mentioned some of kk duets, but tell me do u have ever listened any better kk duet than “aakhon mein kya ji ruphela baadal” under dada’s baton in 50s, i cosider this duet as best kk duet, but no doubt dat dada & sj contributed gr8ly in 60s & 70s too…

    50s were just amazing, every composer, singer & lyricist contributed his best into 50s, 60s wre gr8 too, madan ji was stunnig wd his gr8 gazals, i consider 70s comparatively less quality decade, not bcoz of western music bcoz i like western artists too like norah jones, pink floyd,metallica,,.. but i think film making was degraded in 70s along wd soulful shayari,, dat affected music..but rdb was really stunning in 70s

    i consider 50s as best also coz of magical work by naushad sahab, man tarpat , o dunia ke rakhwale, hum hue jinke liye barbaad, naseeb tere dar pe, meri kahani bhoolne wale all these rafi-naushad songs were just superb, wd excellent shayari.. also we cant deny d fact that shayari was at its best in 50s, many maestros consider sahir as best shayar, and according to me his best work also came in 50s wd pyaasa… jinhe naaz hai hind par, ye mehlo ye takhto, jane wo kaise log the… all these were
    excellent songs wd high lyrical values, remember dat kk’s fav song “dukhi mann mere” was also from 50s under dada’s baton and sahir was too gr8 here wd his pen ….

    dhani ram ji,,
    regarding your comment—

    “What actually all of us including you,Vikram,XXX,Maniksh and I are combatting is a certain kind of philistine taste in music”

    im totally agree wd u, and if someone really wanna have a divine taste of hfm dan go for 50s music..

  700. 700
    Vikram Says:

    Vipul,
    If you have not yet visited the web page http://www.eternalrafi.com, please do so. You will find hundreds of Rafi songs downloads for free. I am sure you will find most of what you are looking for. What a site! I was surprised and amazed to see their collectiion. Great effort indeed!
    Dhani Ram Ji,
    I agree with everything that you said in your post. Recently I watched the old hindi film ‘Devdas’. There was a solo by Talat ( MITWA ). What a composition! Another solo from the same film MANZIL KI CHAH MEIN by Rafi is another example of SDB’s hold on his compositions.

  701. 701
    Vikram Says:

    Ashu ji,
    I take back whatever I said about the song ‘Meri Pyari Bindu’. It’s not at all a bad song. After hearing it a couple of times, I started kind of liking it.

  702. 702
    Vipul Says:

    Sudip, Kumar Sanu has very limited range. He can not sing on high notes. To bring softness to his voice he goes nasal. He is same as Mukesh in terms of range. As of now he has no work as every1 realised his weaknesses and today’s best MD, A R Rehman has not used him even once!

    I think in current singers, I have high regards for Udit (for his freshness), Alka Yagnik, Kavita K, Sukhwinder Singh (for his amazing range), Hariharan and Shreya Ghosal. Sonu is good too as he is more versatile like his mentor (Rafi) but somehow I feel there is something missing in his voice. Technically he is sound and can sing difficult songs too.

    In KK clone, I prefer Abhijeet. oSmetimes I feel Abhijeet is even better than KK (sounds funny rite! . But his voice is softer than KK according to me)

  703. 703
    Vipul Says:

    Thanks Vikram…. the site you mentioned is awesome… Thanks…

  704. 704
    Sudip Says:

    Vipul wrote: “In KK clone, I prefer Abhijeet. Sometimes I feel Abhijeet is even better than KK (sounds funny rite! . But his voice is softer than KK according to me)”

    -That’s because he (Abhijeet) sings in falsetto. Any singer, including me :-) sounds sweet on a falsetto note. True sweetness should come out regardless of the note and the song. Rafi was sweet even in “Main jat Yamla” or “Nagin sa roop hai tera”..One may not like the song but one cannot deny Rafi’s sweetness in these antras.

  705. 705
    ashu Says:

    My dear friend Vikram,

    This is what the problem with you guys…Even though u people know the truth, but fight for false thing.
    But i m gald that u like it.

  706. 706
    ashu Says:

    This blog is only for VIPUL..
    ——————————–
    Vipul,

    I am sorry to say that u got worst music sense. First of all, Abhijeet voice is not like Kishore, Abhijeet tries to imitate him.

    I feel Sonu is much versatile than Rafi, because he can sing classical as well as rap, westen :)
    How is it?

  707. 707
    Vipul Says:

    Thanks Ashu.. I agree that my music sense is worst. Thanks for telling me that. But postive aspect is atleast I know that my music sense is worst.

    However in some cases, I have seen many people with worst music sense but that is not the problem. The problem is that they do not even know about it.

    Thanks dear and take care…

  708. 708
    Vipul Says:

    one more thing.. as per me Rafi is far more better than KK as Rafi is more versatile. We all have proved that. Again, I think Rafi is better than KK bcos I have got worst music sense!

  709. 709
    Vipul Says:

    This is taken from EternalRafi website.. What Manna Dey thinks about Rafi…

    “Rafi was the complete singer who could sing everything. Among the frontline singers, only he and I would be called to sing every kind of song. And I did not grudge that he always remained ahead of me because he was a far better singer than I was. I rate Mohammad Rafi as one of the very best of all time. He was undoubtedly one of the very best. He was self-taught and he made a style of his own, and I would rate him the icon in playback singing.”

    I think Manna babu has worst music sense like me :)

  710. 710
    ashu Says:

    Vipul,

    Mere dost, There are many interview by Manna Dey. I already posted many on same site and Rafi site. And ha Manna never said that Rafi is only best, Pls. read carefully. He said “RAFI was one of the best of all time”

    Pls. listen a song…”JAADU DAAL GAYE Re…mo pe baanke Bihari”. Check the Kishore’s range. I personally believe only Manna Dey aftre Kishore could manage to sing this song.
    I respect ur view..if u think Rafi is best..I don’t have issue. BUt who proved it he is only best. Don’t conclude something which is debatable since last 37 yrs.

  711. 711
    ashu Says:

    Vipul…

    I am still firm with my words about ur musical sense :)

    Manna Dey talks abt Rafi and Kishore from this link:
    ==============================================
    “Rafi was a wonderful person, a trendsetter in singing, he evolved a style of his own which I used to follow too. Talat Mehmood was also unique. Kishore Kumar was one of the most versatile singers of our industry; he ruled the popularity charts like nobody else.” Though not a fan of Western music, he likes listening to old favourites like Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby, both of whom he adored during his college days.

    **Available at http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2003/06/02/stories/2003060201370100.htm
    ===============================================

    And one more link on Manna Dey said abt RDB and SDB, though personally i am not completely agree…….
    ==============================================
    Comparing the two Burmans he said, “People often say Sachin Dev Burman was a great composer. Yes, he was but I feel Pancham was one step ahead of his father.”
    ** AVailable at:
    http://www.cinemasangeet.com/cinema/articles/?a=382
    ==============================================

    Hope u r clear now…:)

  712. 712
    Sudip Says:

    You highlighted “one of the” when it came to Manna Dey talking about Rafi. But dodged the “one of the” when it came to Kishore.

    I am not sure if you are a Bengali or can read Bengali. The last time Manna talked publicly about the “greatest male singer ever” (NOT “one of the greatest singers”) was in the obituary for Naushad in the renowned Bengali daily Anandabazar Patrika. A translated version of that obituary is here (pls read the conclusion):
    http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=813233

    If you suspect this is a handiwork of Rafians, here is the original untranslated version:
    http://www.anandabazar.com/archive/1060513/13nibon.htm

    In case you cannot read Bengali, pls get someone who can read Bengali to read it for you.

  713. 713
    Arushi Says:

    you are a great singer and my favorite

  714. 714
    Vipul Says:

    Rafi was anytime far better than KK. Why? Here is the analysis…
    1> Rafi sang about 26000+ songs compared to KK’s 5000+ songs in entire career. (please correct me if I am wrong)/ It is because Rafi was more preferred by MD’s. If Rafi would have been low in quality as mentioned by Ashu, you think Indian MD’s do not have music sense as they were inclined towards Rafi more than anyone else? In terms of sheer quantity Rafi is winner. (BTW, Ashu what happened to your own music sense when you made that statment about quality :) )
    2> Rafi sang for more MD’s than kk. Even for RD (kk’s favourite) Rafi sang 100+ songs (please correct me if I am wrong). The same was not true for kk. KK hardly sang or sang very few songs for Naushad, OP, Madan Mohan or SJ. (Rafi’s favourite) Rafi is winner again..
    3> Rafi sang many songs in many different languages (apart from Hindi and Punjabi, his mother tongue). KK sang most of his songs in Hindi and Bangla. Rafi wins here too.
    4> KK’s comfort zone in singing was limited to Romantic songs, sad songs, fact paced and fun songs. He hardly tried outside his comfort zone. Rafi was right there in all those categories and he can sing also Ghazals, Patriotic songs, Classical, Bhajans, Quwallis folk songs etc.(he sang many in each category). In short, His comfort zone was very big, so big that he can almost sing any kind of song. Rafi is a clear winner here too.
    5> Rafi gave playback for KK too (as many as 11 times). Why kk need Rafi for vocal for his own song on screen?
    6> Finally Rafi and Lata were declared best male and female playback singer of last century. Where was kk?

    Hope I am clear now.

  715. 715
    ashu Says:

    Vipul, Mere dost…

    Where r u :) ? No messages…What happened :)

  716. 716
    Sudip Says:

    ASHU:

    You highlighted “one of the” when it came to Manna Dey talking about Rafi. But dodged the “one of the” when it came to Kishore.

    I am not sure if you are a Bengali or can read Bengali. The last time Manna talked publicly about the “greatest male singer ever” (NOT “one of the greatest singers”) was in the obituary for Naushad in the renowned Bengali daily Anandabazar Patrika. A translated version of that obituary is here (pls read the conclusion):
    http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=813233

    If you suspect this is a handiwork of Rafians, here is the original untranslated version:
    http://www.anandabazar.com/archive/1060513/13nibon.htm

    In case you cannot read Bengali, pls get someone who can read Bengali to read it for you. I am not saying Rafi is best because Manna says so, but setting facts straight on Manna Dey’s opinions.

    VIPUL:

    Let me correct you that Rafi has NOT sung 26000 songs. If Rafi has indeed sung 26000 songs it shows him in bad light because he would have a poorer song:hit ratio than KK.

    Rafi has sung around 5000 Hindi film songs (a little more than KK). When Lata claimed to record the highest number of songs, Rafi contested saying that he then has sung 26000 times. It means he has been recorded 26000 times (each song can have multiple takes, each song can be used in several parts, etc). Not 26000 songs.

  717. 717
    Vipul Says:

    Sudip, thanks for clarification…. But still Rafi was higher in numbers than KK :)

  718. 718
    ashu Says:

    Sudip,

    Good. I like it. At least you are aware of Rafi;s song in quantities. I personally think he would have sung close to 7k songs (including all languages) which is higher in quantity, and in quality he is a way behind Kishore.

    I saw Manna’s interview on Doordarshan, and again he mentioned same thing abt Rafi and Kishore…

  719. 719
    ashu Says:

    sudip,

    let me clear ur doubt. I am not Bengali.
    Why u people thikn only Bengalis like Kishore?
    See. K for Kishore….Only 1 Bengali…
    Sachin Tendulkar, Dhouni, Shoaib are not Bengali
    We can also say samething for Rafi and Muslims, but i am not so narrow minded….

  720. 720
    Vipul Says:

    Ashu said ” At least you are aware of Rafi;s song in quantities. I personally think he would have sung close to 7k songs (including all languages) which is higher in quantity, and in quality he is a way behind Kishore. ”

    Ashu saheb, could you justify your statement about quality? Please come up with concrete proof else it will beome a laughing stock for others. I am sure you have more information and knowledge than me and many others .. so you will come up with a proper justification.

    Please also reply to al 6 points I mentioned, so that we have a clear debate.

    Thanks dear…

  721. 721
    Sudip Says:

    “I saw Manna’s interview on Doordarshan, and again he mentioned same thing abt Rafi and Kishore…”

    -So you think Manna was lying in Anandabazar when he categorically said Rafi was the “best male voice ever”? Or was he drunk? Why do you keep wavering?
    -When we bring Rafi’s ghazals you bring in Mehdi Hasan
    -When I quote Anandabazar, you slip to Doordarshan

    Pls answer: WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON MANNA’S WRITING IN ANANDABAZAR? You do not have to accept Rafi’s superiority, but at least lets get an agreement on Manna Dey’s opinion.

    When did I say only Bengalis like Kishore? Can’t u even understand that I was checking if you could read the Anandabazar Patrika? That has nothing to do with Kishore.

  722. 722
    Sudip Says:

    Manna could have said 1000 different things on Doordarshan (and most of them are provoked by questions). In Anandabazar, with a free hand he mentioned “RAFI WAS THE BEST MALE VOICE EVER”. Pls show me where exactly did he mention the same phrase with other singers?

    “Most versatile”, “Greatest maverick”, “one of the greats”, “most popular singer” are NOT the same as “BEST MALE VOICE EVER”. Lets get this clear and not try to misrepresent Manna.

  723. 723
    Vipul Says:

    Ashu, I do not think Sudip was telling that since you could be Bengali so you like KK. He posted the link in Bengali (Which I do not understand) so he was just clarifying that you could get it translated if you want to read.

    BTW, we all Rafi supporters (Vikram, Dhani Ram, myself, Sudip, Prabal Das) are not Muslims, but we just luv music so religion does not matter.

    Religion does not matter to anyway as I am an atheist.

  724. 724