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The Divine Voice of ‘Devotional ‘ Kishore

by Arghya Dutta Kishore Kumar is considered to be a “versatile genius” with so many outstanding facets of his artistic personality. If overall as an artist, Kishore is versatile, only in singing domain he is a “versatile singer” in a true nature. Right from romantic to sad to soulful to motivating to semi-classical to qawwali […]

by Arghya Dutta

Kishore Kumar is considered to be a “versatile genius” with so many outstanding facets of his artistic personality. If overall as an artist, Kishore is versatile, only in singing domain he is a “versatile singer” in a true nature. Right from romantic to sad to soulful to motivating to semi-classical to qawwali to patriotic and to ghazals, Kishore had shown his tremendous variety in his god-given voice each and every time he had stood behind the microphone.

Here we discuss, yet another interesting genre of songs from Kishoreda – devotional songs – where he, as always, did tremendous perfection in singing, although he remained underrated always.

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Kishoreda’s first true devotional song was “Leela Aparampar prabhuji teri leela aparampar” which he sang in the movie, Humsafar(1953). The song was composed by the maestro Ustad Ali Akbar Khan sahib. The song requires extensive voice modulation and Kishore sang the song with great feeling. The antara where he goes up with “ O neele ambar pe basaria, teri jay jaykaar…,” the feeling touches hearts.

Next came the classic “Haal tujhe apni duniya ka nazar to aata hoga” from Asha(1957). Composed by one of Kishore’s earliest admirers, C Ramchandra, the song is different, as now, Kishore is complaining to the Almighty for all the misdoingd on planet earth. His voice carries the grief and complaint and very “open throated”.. with “ Maalik tu bhi isko banaake ab pachhtata hoga…” truly depicts a person’s disappointment which he keeps in front of the god,,,

One of my most favourite devotional song from Kishore was in Door Gagan Ki Chhaon Mein(1964)- a song which he himself composed and sang alongwith Manna De. The song “O jag ke rakhwale humein tujh bin kaun sambhaale” is very soulful and touches heart immediately with the divine tune.. Manna starts the song with chorus and Kishore enters very late and immediately leaves a heavy impact with “Kiya sab kuchh tere hawaale, o jag ke rakhwale”.. Manna reportedly praised Kishore openly for the composition as well as the rendition… Shows again, the genius of that man- Kishore Kumar!

Kishore sang many devotional songs in the 70s, when he was on the top spot in playback singing. Chhoti Bahu(1971) saw Kishore rendering “Hey re kanhaiya, kisko kahega tu maiyya..” composed by his long time associates Kalyanji-Anandji.. The song depicts the dilemma of young Kanhaiyya, as he was born in Devki’s house but brought up in Yashda’s home and finding it difficult whom he should call “his actual mother”.. “Jisme tujhko janam diya ya jisne tujhko pala…”, very simple lyrics and simple tune and Kishore’s “open voice” makes this song very close to heart..

Ram ka naam badnaam na karo..” is perhaps the most popular devotional song of Kishore which he sang in Hare Rama Hare Krishna(1971) under Rahul Dev Burman. Youth getting astray are motivated by Kishore with the “tyaag” and “dharma” of Rama and Krishna here with a voice “pioneering” and “comforting”.. The feelings which he brings here also makes the song memorable and timeless. “Ram ko samjho, Krishna ko jaano, neend se jaago o mastano..”, Kishore calls the youth to follow the “true path”of Almighty to come out of darkness.

Mere Jeevan Sathi(1972) is mainly rememberd for the romantic songs of Kishore for Rajesh Khanna, but the song “Aao kanhai mere dham” is very special for those who love Bhajans.. The true passion and anxiety of a bhakt for not getting the darshan of Lord Krishna, is reflected in the anxious voice of Kishore “dekho ho gayi shaam”… Composed by Rahul Dev Burman- a truly sublime bhajan for Kishore..

Naya Din Nayi Raat(1974) saw this time Laxmikant Pyarelal turning to Kishore for a nice melodious and simple Krishna vandana in terms of “Krishna Krishna bolo Krishna…”, influenced by Bengali kirtan- with proficient usage of the instrument “khol”. The song was sung very melodiously by the two legends- Kishore and Lata and is even popular to this day!

In 1974, the newcomer music director Rajesh Roshan handed Kishoreda a very high pitch beautiful devotional number “Jai Bholenath Jai Ho Prabhu” in the movie “Kunwara Baap” where Kishore sang as many as 4 songs … Although, the song might not have left too much of an impact as a “devotional song” in the mind of the audience, it is very much a memorable and a very melodious song of Kishore and Lata..

But the best was yet to come!! Laxmi-Pyare turned again to Kishore with “Prem ka rog laga mujhe yeh”- a classic devotional song on a semi-classical note in Do Premee(1980)! All the three antaras were different from one another and the note changes were complex!! With lot of vigour in his voice, Kishore sang like a truly “magan” bhakta in “Yeh kaanton ke haar hai saare , murari..” This song is still a showcase of Kishore’s multi layered voice!!

The next considerable devotional song was “Bhole O Bhole” from Yarana(1981) composed by Rajesh Roshan, may not be called a “true devotional song” in a proper sense, but had the essence of a troubled mind addressing the God.

The last significant bhajan by Kishore was in Swami Dada(1982) for Rahul Dev Burman with “Ek roop kayin naam man mandir tera dham..”.. Again a simple tune sang with lot of emotions… But bhajans were scarce those days in Hindi Cinema, and this song remained the “swan song” for Kishore as far as devotional songs are concerned…

In 1986, recovering a heart attack, Kishore recorded his last Rabindrasangeet album (Bangla) with music arrangement of his another true admirer- Hemant Kumar.. The typical low note devotional Rabindrasangeet “ Klanti aamaar khama koro prabhu…” (Please forgive my tireness, O Lord..), according to me, is the best devotional song of Kishore …

A man of many moods, Kishore truly proved his versatility in all genres of singing.. Although, his devotional songs cannot fall in the same category of “Man tarapat hari darshan” or “Sukh ke sab saathi”, but the glimpse of his great talent cannot be overlooked in all the devotional songs he had sung!! A truly “divine” voice!

468 Responses to “The Divine Voice of ‘Devotional ‘ Kishore”

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  1. 201
    paramjeet Says:

    kapilji,

    Koi surprising baat nahi ke apko lowest octave ke baare mein zyada jaankari nahi hai. Mukesh aur Kishore Kumar dono hi low to medium octave range mein belong karte hai aur Rafi medium to high range mein.

    Kishore ka lowest octave range genrally four notes tak cover karta tha, ie, ma-pa-dha-ni, Mukesh ka pa-dha-ni, pa ke neeche maine Mukeshji ko suna nahi hai, kuchh examples share kar sakte hai to achha rahega. Rafi sahab shuru shuru mein dha tak hit karte the, 70s ke baad woh bhi problematuc ho gaya, highest octave mein woh best the, unse behetar maine kisiko suna nahi. Manna De bhi nahi.

    Kishore ke 14 maatra ke gaane ‘koi humdum na raha’ ya ‘koi jota jisko apna’ ya ‘pyar tumhe kis mode pe'(slow aur fast milaake’kyunki woh gaana ek hi hai) agar aap sune wahan aap ko samajh mein aayega Kishore ka low notes mein clarity kaisa tha.. Mukeshji bhi lowest octave mein Rafi sahab se achhe the, magar sur ka pakad Kishoreda ka better tha..

  2. 202
    Vitthal Says:

    Kapil ji,

    I concur with paramjeet ji’s views. What I personally feel about rafi ji’s greatness is that he was very comfortable and attractive in medium octave, high pitch also he was good (better than other hindi singers), in voice flexibility also rafi was great and of course since he was classically trained, he could sing in a sophisticated way. Added to that an attractive melodious voice coupled with above talents made rafi attractive.

    What makes kishore unique is without basic classical training, he made himself an attractive singer. Regarding low pitch observations, it was that kishore did attempt few of the lower notes than rafi ji (there was one link here shobana … ratri of rabindra sangeet by kishore) where in he sings some 4 notes in the lower octave. The basic difference is that without much trained, kishore had proved himself to be a great singer with numerous fan following even today and who is greatly remembered along with accomplished great playback singers of the country viz., ghantasala, rafi, lata, etc. This makes kishore great.

    Regarding Mukesh, I do not think his voice could touch high ranges. In medium octave, mukesh too was nice to hear. His speciality was he could sing notes very plainly without any special effects. (I think rafi also did not render any notes plainly – of course any singer who is classically trained will never render notes plainly) Once I had heard SPB saying that singing notes very plainly is also a fine skill which is not possible for many and in this line Mukesh was special to hear. Mukesh too had a good voice and he had indeed rendered some fine songs which have become famous.

  3. 203
    satyansh Says:

    Admin of this site,

    Thank you for all the hard work you put in to maintaining this site. While you are not known to me and many other music-lovers, we are indebted to you for allowing people access to a public forum where they can share their views.

    Arghya,

    First of all, thank you for a well-researched article. The discussions have indeed gone track through intrusion, but I am glad to see that you guys have managed to keep it in check. Also, happy to see Surajit ji and KishoreFan still around. Looks like we have more knowledgeable Ghantasala fans here too (Vithal ji, greetings to you) who can continue to share more on the genius. Lalit ji and Srivas ji’s articles made for real good reading. Lalit ji, I don’t know why you disappeared, but please do start sharing your knowledge again. Surajit again hit the nail on the head with post 194. Arghya, you know a lot about Bengali numbers – with regards to Rabindra Sangeet, what is the general scale it is played on? Could it be that some singers are more suited to Rabindra Sangeet than others?

    Paramjeet ji,

    Namaskar – bahut der baad adan-pradaan ho raha hai.

    Aap kaafi acchi charchaon ke sahbhagi rahe hain aur mein aapke adhiktar udaharaNo se sehmat hoon. Aapki hasya aur vyang se bhari kuch tipaNiyon ka maine bhi anand uthaya hai :). Aapne post 201 mein jo kaha woh bhi sahi hai. Mai aapse Manna Dey se sambandhit ek baat ka khulasa karna chahta hoon. Jab aap highest octave ki baat kar rahe hain, aap keval svar hit karne ki baat kar rahe hain ya ki kuch aur? Jaisa ki aap jante hain ki Manna Dey ne tara mein bhi bahut kamaal kiya hai aur unki semi-classical renditions ki charcha mai abhi aur nahi karna chahta (aajkal likhne ka zyada samay nahi milta 🙂 ). Mujhe bhi Rafi ke medium-high octave ke gaane kaafi pasand hain aur iska sabse bada karan hai unki awaaz ki mithaas aur high note hit karte samay uss mithaas ko samete rakhne ki KhSamata.

    Waise Manna Dey ne “Sur Na Saje” mein highest note kaunsa hit kiya tha?

    Kripaya issi tarah likhte rahiyega.

  4. 204
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    My apologies. Mai aapse “Bhay Bhanjana” ke baare mein poochna chahta tha par bhool se “Sur Na Saje” likh diya.

  5. 205
    paramjeet Says:

    yeh dekho kaun aa gaya.. Satyansh bhai ko dekh ke ek gaana yaad aa gaya -‘tum aaye to aaya mujhe yaad, gali mein aaj chand nikla…’, kaise ho sir aap?? Id ka chand ho gaye the ‘true voice’ ka baad…

    Haan, Satyansh bhai, main swara ki hi baat kar raha tha.. Magar baat sirf notes hit karne ki hi nahi hai.. Aap ko pata hoga Satyansh bhai, tara mein jo notes pe rafi sahab jaate the wahan pe generally logon ki voice patli ho jaati thi( ‘ga’ se aage).. Lataji ga tak theek lagti thi tara mein, uske aage kaafi shrll voice ho jaati thi unki.. Us hisaab se Rafi sahab ki awaaz badalti nahi thi..swar hit karne ke saath saath ek voice stability bhi thi unki jis wajah se tara mein mujhe lagta hai woh auron se behetar the..

    Magar udara mein unki parishaniyan kaafi thi.. Waise Satyanshji, aap agar Kishore ka tara aur Rafi ka udara compare karein to main bolunga Kishore ka tara better stable tha.. Rafi sahab ki awaaz ek dum se unstable ho jaati thi ‘ni’ ke neeche magar kishore tara ke ‘ga’ tak stable rehte the in fact ‘ma’ pe bhi 70s se pehle, yaani ki jab unki umar thodi kam thi..

    Rafi sahab ki stability mudara ‘sa’ se tara ‘dha’ tak maintain tha jo kareeb 14 maatra ka range cover karti hai aur Kishore ki stability low ‘ma’ se lekar high ‘ga’ tak tha jo ki again 14 maatra cover karti hai.. To rangewise main dono ko alag nahi dekhta.

    Magar Satyansh bhai, Hindi movies mein high pitch singing ka prachalan hone ke baad(early 50s se) sangeetkaron ne rafi ke strength pe zyada kaaam shuru kiya.. Isi liye bhi kyun ki sad songs high pitch mein hone se movies mein ek emotional impact aata tha.. Dramatization ke view se.. Is wajah se rafi ki pratibha ubhar kar saamne aayi aur dusron ko peechhe chhor di,.

    70 s mein Kishore top mein aane ke baad sangeetkaron ne theek ulta kiya jo unhone Rafi ke saath 15-20 saal pehle kiya tha.. Is baar Kishore ke strength pe kaam hone lage.. Ek ke baad ek low octave songs, jeevan darshan pe gaane, khuli awaaz se dard bhare gaane, rock n roll aur karaoke gaane, comedy gaane, yoodelling, deep voice se romantic gaane- sabhi jagah Kishore click karne lage..

    To main yehi bolunga ke talent sabhi mein hi hai magar samay samay ki baat hoti hai,bhai..

    Manna ji ka woh dusra wala gaana maine suna nahi Achhe se Satyansh bhai.. Sunke batata hoon.. Pehli baar kisine hindi mein jawab diya, achha laga.. Nahi to hamare bangali babu hamesha bolte rehte hai angrezi mein likho..hahaha..

  6. 206
    paramjeet Says:

    vitthalji se ek prashna hai..

    Sir, Ghantashalaji ka koi hasya geet(fun songs) ya koi fast track gaana share kar sakte hai yahan pe?? Matlab ‘saamne yeh kaun aaya’ jaisa koi gaana??

  7. 207
    arghya Says:

    Hi Satyansh,
    Rabindra Sangeet emphasizes on a voice culture- deep and heavy in texture- to give the songs the required feel and beauty..

    It demands a good control on the low and medium octave.. Only Hemant and Kishore from filmy singers could contribute significantly in Rabindra sangeet(of course, the former one contributing much much more),as it is a highly niche segement and because many times singers get rejected only because “their voice and their pitch do not suit Tagore songs”..

    Here is a Hemant Kumar Tagore song for you:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2inr_tZiq-8&feature=PlayList&p=2535F4EE0B3CFAC2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3

    Don’t miss the comments also..

    In Hindi, songs like “Jaye to jaye kaha”, ” Tere mere milan ki yeh raina”, “‘Chhukar mere man ko” are taken from Tagore songs..

  8. 208
    Vitthal Says:

    Paramjeet ji – 206

    Here is a hasya geet of ghantasala from the famous telugu evergreen film Mayabazar – (this film can be seen any number of times even today) – Sundari nee vanti ……

    The actor is Relangi Venkatramaiah, the greatest of the comedians from telugu cine world and was the first comedian from the south to have won Padmasri award in 1954 from the Govt. The Music direction is by Ghantasala himself.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0uW8RGCkZc&feature=related

    There are many hasya geets by ghantasala (specially a filmy album on relangi is available) The above song is one of the most appreciated fun song. For your views paramjeet ji.

    By the way here is one romantic solo number in Mohana Raga (music direction by ghantasala himself) Mounamuga nee manasu …….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrMgxDIuAuQ

    Arghya ji, for your esteemed views pl.

    Paramjeet ji – You have not responded to my post 153 on the song posted therein.

  9. 209
    arghya Says:

    A small story on Mere Naina sawan bhado as shared by Jatin of Jatin-Lalit fame in the documentory Zindagi Ek Safar directed by Mr. Sandip Ray.

    RD chose Lata and Kishore to sing the two versions of this song. Lata recorded but Kishore declined saying “yeh sab mere liye nahi hai”..RD insisted to which Kishore said “give me three days time to think over.” RD said “Ok” and then in a threatening voice said” You will have to come back, otherwise I would call Rafi”..

    Kishore did come back.. exactly after three days walking into the recording room and declaring “Pancham, I am ready” and the song was okeyed in one take!!

    Pancham was speechless.. Kishore came to him and said” Pancham, now record the song with whoever you want, but let me tell you, even after decades, people would remember my version and not others,,,” Pancham did not reply, just stood speechless..

    Jatin concludes” How true Kishoreda was….”

    Pancham included the Kishore version as his most favourite song of himself later..

    Kishore included this song as one of his own top 10..

    Great songs are created this way… People try to trash them only to degrade themselves and expose their own biasedness and jealousy..

  10. 210
    Kapil Says:

    Paramjeet Ji, on your farmaish, Mukesh hitting “Komal-Madhyam” of “Mandra-saptak”:

    Ab yaad na kar, MD:Anil Biswas, Anokha Pyar(1948):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxTJQZWC-2s

    In fact i would suggest you to listen all Mukesh songs with Anil Biswas and Roshan and just have an understanding how well Mukesh excelled in between lower octave to mid octave, and of course, musical values in those songs are definitely more than the songs you have mentioned in your post.

    By the way, Mujhe samjhaiyega ki “Koi hum dum na raha” mein Kishore sahab ki low notes clarity ka kaise pata chalta hai? kya is song ka koi aur bhi version hai jo low notes mein composed hai ..:-P

    Will write more on this, but later.. ..

  11. 211
    paramjeet Says:

    kapilji,
    aap ka point agar gaane ke melody ke upar hai to main sabse pehle aapki shukriya ada karta hoon itna khubsoorat gaana sunane ke liye..
    Leking agar aap ka point low notes hitting pe hai, sabse neecha sur’zamana’ words pe ‘pancham’ ke neeche nahi ho sakta hai Kapilji.. Madhyam aap ne bola mujhe ‘pa’ se neeche nahi laga, considering Mukeshji ki age us time 24-25 saal ka tha, unki awaaz mein ‘zamana’ word pe ek stretch sunaai deti hai jo 52 saal ki umar tak bhi ‘madhyam udara saptak’ mein Kishore ka nahi tha.. aap thoda sa preconceived hai kishoreji ke baare mein isi liye shayad ‘koi humdum na raha’ theek se sune nahi, agli baar suniyega to mukhde ke notes aur antare ke notes khaali note kar lijiyega, kyun aur kisliye aap note karne ke baad bataunga..

    Waise woh Rabindrasangeet ‘saghana raatri’ abhi bhi pada hua hai Arghyaji ke diye hue downlaods link mein.. Aap ko aapka ‘comedian’ perception change nahi karna hai to theek otherwise thodi si takleef uthake woh gaana suniyega 52 saal ki umar mein madhyam udara mein sustain karna kya hota hai,, aur woh gaana(language to khair mujhe bhi kuchh samajh mein nahi aayi) khud uthaane ka try kare..

    Mukeshji humare bahut hi close hai.. Jaise Vithalji ne bataya’notes to plain hits karna bhi ek bahut difficult kaam hai’.. Aap melody aspect mein bolenge to main kuchh nahi bolunga kyunki sabki apni apni pasand hai.. Magar technically udara saptak mein Kishoreji se badhkar stability maine dekha nahi, aur clarity bhi!!

  12. 212
    paramjeet Says:

    vitthalji.. Maza aa gaya.. Sahi mein..
    Keep it up sirji!!
    Actually woh 153 wala song khul nahi raha mere computer pe.. Koi youtube link de do us gaane ka..

  13. 213
    arghya Says:

    Well, I have heard only one “Koi humdum na raha” and that is this one:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDPb2ShfjHo

    where in mukhda the lowest note at “sahara” is “pa” and of course “dha” and “ni” are also covered in the mukhda.. The antara goes high as “ga”.. There should be no issue regarding low notes of the song, IMHO..

    By the way, there is another version.. Since the topic has come.. This version I just discussed over phone with Satyansh last night..

    http://www.sendspace.com/file/pa14yp

    Now, these song is very very very rare.. I think this forum is being kept close watch in by people as a mean to collect rare songs.. LOLz..

    Jokes apart, people might find in the rare version with more “soul” and “innocence”- that is not my case.. Point to be noted is the scale in the mukhda which Kishore adjusts while remaking it .. He broughts down to udara and then in antara he retains the tara part..

    Leave about low octave and soul and innocence also- this is a work of a sheer genius composer and a singer..

    Trivia: ( I am loving it…LOL)- After hearing the modified version, Ashok Kumar resisted saying “It is becoming 14 maatra, you cannot pull this off” to which Kishore said” I dont understand this maatra-waatra, just leave it to me, I will show..”

    Yes, indeed he showed.. To all except one or two persons here and there..LOLZ.

  14. 214
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    Kya gaana yaad aaya hai aapko – lol. Uss forum ka ek accha sadasya tha jo bura manane laga aur woh kuch nirash lag raha tha to mai wahan se nikal gaya. Baki saare music ke baare mein baat nahi karte the, befizool ki behas karte hain. Arghya ji bhi acchi Hindi bol lete hain. Chunki script Angrezi hai aur font chotte to padhne mein takleef hoti hogi :). Mai to unse doorbhash par visheshtar Hindi/Angrezi mein hi vartalaap karta hoon. Waise aajkal Angrezi ka prachalan itna ho gaya hai ki log matribhasha mein kam hi bolte hain par apne Bengali babu to Hindi, English, Bengali, Marathi sabhi bolte hain :).

    Mai aapse sehmat hoon, Rafi ki awaaz itni patli nahi hoti. Mere khayal mein Rafi ki awaaz mein bass accha tha isiliye woh utne high scale par bhi patli nahi lagti. Of course, Kishore, Hemant, Manna Dey ityadi ki awaaz zyada bhari hai to unke mukable aadmi Rafi ki awaaz ke bharipan (bass) ka andaza nahi laga pata. Saath hi Rafi ki awaaz meethi bhi thi. Aap jo female singers ke baare mein keh rahe hain woh maine bhi samanyataur par hote dekha hai (with exceptions). Maine note kiya hai ki zyadatar ladkiyon ki awaaz unche swaron mein karNavedhi (tez/shrill) lagti hai ya woh head voice mein gaana shuru kar deti hain parantu nichle swaron mein woh bahut hi araam se aur unke male counterparts se zyada harkatein aur komalta ya nazakat (delicacy) daal pati hain. To be safe, aapne jo notes kahen hai mai usse ek upar kehta kyonki on a good day maine kuch acchi singers ko tara mein “Ma” acche se khul kar hit karte suna hai. Mujhe to Lata aur Asha sabse acchi lagti hain – Lata to mahaan hain hi par Asha sabse versatile hain aur unke “westernized Alankaron” se mai bahut prabhavit hota hoon. Waise aaj mai Arghya se yeh baat kar raha tha ki Lata aur Kishore ka range zyada match karta hai chunki kishore bhi low bahut accha gaate hain.

    Mai aapse kuch sadaharaN baatein kahunga jinka arth aap jaisa jaankaar aadmi khud hi nikal lega:
    1) Rafi ke ganon mein aap “Mohabbat Zindabaad” sune. Yeh geet mujhe pasand hai, par isme aap aakhri ki iss line par dhyan den “…Woh Pathar Hai, Insaan Kahan…Zindabaad Zindabaad”. “Insaan” shabd par dhyan den aur phir jab woh chorus ke peeche “Mohabbat Zindabaad” kehte hain uspar gaur karen. Mai iske baare mein yahan charcha nahi karna chahta par aap samajh jayenge.
    2) “O Duniya Ke Rakhwaale” mein Rafi ne dusri baar “Bhagwaan” kaafi accha gaya tha. Saath hi Kishore ki awaaz ki bulandi Padosan ke inn do maSHoor geeton se bhi zahir hoti hain – “Meri Pyaari Bindu” ke ant mein jab woh “Bindu Re” kehna shuru karte hain aur “Chatur Naar” mein “Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Dha Heyy Heyyy Heyyyyy”. Aap dono ke high notes par gaur karen.
    3) Aap Manna Dey ka woh geet phir se sunenge to shayad samajh jayenge mai kya keh raha hoon – unhone high note steady aur lamba kheecha hai aur awaaz bhi tagadi hai. Uske saath mai samajhta hoon aapne Manna Dey ke semi-classical geet to sune hi honge. Tara mein jo note woh hit karte the unme woh bhi nipuN the aur kyonki unki classical/semi-classical ki jaankaari aur pakad zyada thi mere hisaab se woh ek zyada siDH gayak the. Versatile to woh the hi. Of course, unki awaaz bakiyon jitni filmy nahi thi. Playback singing ke liye filmy awaaz hona bahut zaroori hai aur usme Rafi, Kishore, etc. zyada aage the. Baat hoti hai range ki, jiska jo range hai woh usme apni shiksha aur guNon ke hisaab se apni ada mein bahut kuch kar sakta. Mere khayal se inn Hindi gayakon mein sabse praSHikSHit (trained) Manna Dey the aur sabse guNi (talented) the Kishore. Rafi dono ke beech ka ek behatareen balance the. Har aadmi ki apni soch hoti hai.

    Sabse zaroori baat apne kahi “…To main yehi bolunga ke talent sabhi mein hi hai magar samay samay ki baat hoti hai…”. Bilkul sahi baat hai, inn sabhi kalakaron ne (MD, singers, musicians, lyricists) hame kai anmol geet diye hain. Maine to uss forum mein sabse pehli baat hi yehi kahi thi ki yeh true voice hai kya? Yeh kehna ki Rafi har cheez mein sabse acche the (highest possible human range, best at classical, aadi-ityadi) bilkul galat hai. Inn saare gayakon ki apni khoobiyan thi, phir jisko jo accha lage woh usko sun le. Kishore khul kar shudh awaaz mein ga pate the, Rafi awaaz mein shahad si mithaas daalte tha, Manna Dey sur ke sabse pakke the – unki awaaz sunke pata chalta tha ki woh ek trained voice hai, Hemant ki apni mithaas aur flow thi, Talat ki apni mithaas aur vibrations, Mukesh ka kamaal ka pathos (“Dil Jalta Hai” gaana to mujhe bahut pasand hai) aur Mahender Kapoor ki awaaz meethi aur buland thi. Jin logon ko mai janta hoon woh to mahaul ke hisaab se alag-alag geet sunte hain aur sabhi ka anand lete hain.

    Arghya,
    Thanks for sharing your knowledge on Rabindra Sangeet. With my limited knowledge of the genre and from what I have heard, I do agree with you. I have heard that Hemant Kumar and Manna Dey were quite ahead in Bengali music with Hemant being extremely adept at Rabindra Sangeet. Of course, I did enjoy some of the Kishore songs you shared as well. My favorite Hemant song is “Tumi Robe Nirobe”. I have no clue as to what it means, but I have heard it umpteem number of times. I might actually just attempt to remember the lyrics at some point of time if I get a good translation.

    Vithal ji,
    I really enjoyed “Sundari Neevanti Divya Swaroopam”. It made me smile, especially the “haan”. Also, the expressions of both the artists on screen right from the beginning were awesome; taking a whiff of the flower, walking down the steps, etc. The actor reminded me of Kishore a little bit, for example what he does from 0:25 to 0:27, 0:42 to 0:52, etc. They have different styles, but I found him to be funny too. Ghantasala, well he is GREAT indeed. Does this tune remind anybody of some other song?

  15. 215
    arghya Says:

    Vitthalji..

    Loved the comedy song “Sundari..”, sir! The expressions in the words like “a-ha..”, “umm-hu” reminded me of Kishore.. During the last line that expression while calling out “sundari..” also was good.. The song did not sound that spontaneous in comedy as against the Kishore songs but I think Kishore was very special in that genre- something inherently funny within him- which of course, very one cannot have..

    It was an enjoyable song.. Now, at least we know Ghantashalaji had some good comic songs in his kitty as well..

    Request others also to contribute like this..

    This forum is getting interesting day by day, I must say..

  16. 216
    paramjeet Says:

    satyanshji,

    Bhai Bhanjana ke akaratmak taan pancham tak jaati hai tara mein.. Rafi sahab us se bhi 1 ya 2 notes tak upar gaye hai,,
    Hum teen vishayon ko ek saath discuss kare to theek hai:
    1. Swar hit karna.
    2. Swar hit karte samay voice texture pe impact padna.
    3. Swar sustain karna.

    Ab yeh teen alag alag pehluon pe aapka rai kya hai?? badhti umar ke saath saath swar pe jo asar padta hai us baare mein hum fir baat karenge..

  17. 217
    arghya Says:

    Paramjeet 216

    I think you have raised a very valid question here.. The three points are really important. Generally, when we discuss the range of a singer, we concentrate on the first part of it, whereas the gurus and musically deep people give stress to the other two points also ..

    I am not at all qualified to comment anything on this but I think it would be interesting what Satyansh takes on this..

  18. 218
    Vitthal Says:

    Satyansh ji,

    Greetings sir, I welcome you here, after a long time. Thanks for your appreciations on the great ghantasala and his renditions.

    Arghya ji & paramjeet ji & satyansh ji,

    Many thanks for your response. By the way, I am sorry, I think the song of ghantasala in post 153, which kishore fan provided, is not opening on some desktops, even I could notice that (It opened on my personal desktop but it did not open on my official desktop)

    Well, Arghya ji, this site has really really become interesting, crossing all language and other barriers as well, only music and music is being heard here. It is really amazing and nice to be associated continuously with nice individuals like you, who really appreciate music in its way. I am sure this site is creating an example for other sites specially in terms of music discussion and analysis.

  19. 219
    Vitthal Says:

    satyansh ji,

    Could you kindly confirm which was the highest note rafi had touched in zindabad zindabad; because i have heard from some musicians that the song basically starts from medium octave and zindabad higher rendition is in higher octave, the view basically was that it is not really difficult to sing a song starting in medium octave and going to higher octave, as only 2 octaves are covered. The real litmus test for a singer comes when a song starts in lower octave and goes to higher octave (covering all the 3 octaves). Even, it appears, the same is the case with o duniya ke rakhwale too. You had earlier mentioned that in siva sankari of ghantasala in the lower octave he is at dha note and in the highest octave he hits taara ni with beautiful taans sustaining at the highest note. Similarly, (out of curiosity) may I ask what highest note rafi ji had hit in zindabad zindabad and also in o duniya ke rakhwale – are the notes higher than the notes rendered by ghantasala in syamala dandakam as well (I think the highest possible sa note is touched in this) which you have mentioned in your website. Just wanted to know because rafi ji also sounds nice similar to the unique ghantasala in high pitches and in very high notes.

  20. 220
    paramjeet Says:

    satyansh ji,
    Zindabad zindabad maine suna..
    ‘woh patthar hai insaan kaha….’ aur uske baad chorus ke saath woh awaaz..

    Kya bolun is cheez ko? Chup hi rehta hoon… Aap pehle hi samajh gaye the, main ab samajh gaya hoon.. Maine pehle hi bola tha us zamane me dramatization ke liye logon se ‘extra’ karvaya jaata tha high pitch mein..yeh kuchh zyada hi extra tha..

    Mere last post mein dekhiyega maine kuchh sawal rakhe hai.. aap kya sochte hai bataiyega..

  21. 221
    paramjeet Says:

    Kapil sahab,

    Aap ne ek baar kaha tha Rafi forum mein Kishore ko tab gaali diya jaata hai jab koi murkh aake wahan pe chillata hai (aap hi ki bhasha mein bol raha hoon, jaise apne likha tha) ke kishoreji rafisahab se behetar gayak the.

    To maine aap ko poochha tha’bhaijaan, us hi hisaab se aap yahan kya bola rahe hai aur main kya kahoon aap hi bataiye..’ aap ne jawab nahi diya aur ab fir aa gaye pata nahi kya dekhke..

    Itni be sabri kyun hai bhai Kishore ko neecha dikhaane ki.. Technicality pe aaoge to aur bahut boore din dekhoge.. Low notes to kabhi sune nahi theek se, high notes pe ‘zindabad’ sunaake baatoon kya??

    Apne guruji ke gaane sun ke khush raho na aur khushi kam mile to Kishoredada ke comedy gaane to waise hi aapko pasand hai, woh sun liya karo, mast ho jaaoge ekdum.. Fir idhar aake khujli karne ki zaroorat hi nahi padegi..

  22. 222
    Kapil Says:

    Paramjeet Ji, glad you like the song, and hope you would listen it more and more … :-), anyways, if you listen carefully, Mukesh indeed kissed “Madhyam” in the word “Wo” from “Wo pyar ki ghadiyan…”, later he also hit “Gandharva” in the word “Sadayen” from “Aati hain kano mein mere kiski SADAYEN” .. this word “SADAYEN” itself has 3 notes, and the second one is “Gandharva” of Mandra-Saptak …

    I can provide many such examples, but hitting of notes doesn’t matter, what matters is how beautifully you hit that, and of course how well you emote, “Sur ki pakad” as you put it, and in that regard, Mukesh leads over Kishore in lower to mid octave, for sure. And if you closely look at Burmans use of Kishore, they used Kishore in Middle to High(Not too High), where Kishore strength lies, and also, just think as to why Salil Said Kishore style was more a pop oriented where no one could beat him.

    BTW, Aapko nahi lagta, jab Kishore Da Lime Light mein aaye, Sangeet us level ka nahi raha tha, jaisa hua karta tha, though i like 70’s music, but earlier three decades were more quality and melody oriented.

    And, just FYI, i like Kishore singing in other genres too than comedy, after all he was one of the greatest singers, we have ever had, but to me, Rafi and Lata were finest of all.

    ——————–

    Arghya,

    “Koi hum dum na raha” is a great song, i have no problems with this song, however i used those superlative terms w.r.t. something else, as Kishore trying to ape SD or Saigal,to me, is like Sudesh Bhosle trying to ape Kishore. KLS/SDB was king of his trade, and why only Kishore, i don’t like others also, trying to ape Saigal, like CH Aatma, though CH Aatma was a very good singer and Kishore was a great singer.

  23. 223
    unknow1 Says:

    hi paramjeet ji,

    I am a rafi lover. I was literally laughing on the discussions going on in this site. Really it is comedy type or funny like kishore kumar himself. Ghantasala fans are appreciating kishore bengali songs and Kishore fans are appreciating ghantasala telugu songs. What a fun. Big comedy is neither understands the other’s language but start praising each other in a great way. (To really appreciate a song good knowledge of language is a must) Woh, what bigger comedy will be more than this – this a real fun – exactly fitting kishore kumar. I was really rolling on the ground when i saw the numerous posts – really ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

    Just go to the rafi forum and see how well the discussions are going on. Rafi forum is a mighty mountain like rafi himself as compared to this tiny ant hill forum.

    Never try to say anything against rafi – for the reason because rafi cannot be surpassed (of course ghantasala I too have heard – he is alone unique by virtue of his technical ability which is certainly ahead of rafi & sure in some renditions he alone surpasses rafi – more so in classical type filmy songs) but Mr. Paramjeet, kishore being compared to rafi is a real fun. A king is always a king. Rafi was the king of bollywood singing and he will remain forever.

  24. 224
    arghya Says:

    Kapil 222 post.
    You have not answered my points at all..

    You firstly said to Paramjeet: ” By the way, Mujhe samjhaiyega ki “Koi hum dum na raha” mein Kishore sahab ki low notes clarity ka kaise pata chalta hai? kya is song ka koi aur bhi version hai jo low notes mein composed hai ..:-P”

    With that comment, 15 minutes of time were wasted and I had to sit on the keyboard again to confirm a thing I know since ages.. Then in case, you still did not understand, I pasted a rarest of rare song of the original version only to show you the scale modifications which Kishore did..

    You did not reply to that..

    Forget about aping and all.. We are not on that ground at all.. I can give many songs where other singers were aping Kishore also in mannerism, and they were all legendary singers also..

  25. 225
    paramjeet Says:

    kapilji
    Post 222
    Aap ne kaha ‘ Mukesh indeed kissed madhyam’
    Main bolta hoon ‘Kishore not only kissed but also sustained madhyam in saghana gahana raatri’

    Mera aakhri post pade Satyanshji ke liye – maine range par teen prashna rakhe hai , agar aap ko sangeet aati hai Kapilji to aap bhi samjhenge..sur touch karna ek cheez hai aur usko touch karte time voice stability aur fir sur ko sustain karna dusri cheez.. Range usi mein hai..

    Burmans ki baat aapne kyun layi pata nahi… RD Burman ke liye ek behetareen low octave gana(madhyam hitting and sustainance with voice clarity at the age of 53) gaya tha Kishore ne..

    Aap ko jo pasand hai aap sune, 60s ho ya 50s ya jo bhi… kishoreda ne 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s sabhi daur mein behetareen gaane gaaye hai(humare hisaab se) ..commercial success dusri baat hai.. Technically baat karein to usi mein rahiyen..

    Mere aakhri post ke liye kshama chahta hoon.. Bhabuk ho gaya tha..krupaya ignore karein use.. Aap yahan music discuss karein achhi baat magar apna dimaag aur kaan khula rakhke..na ke biased hoke..

    Aur haan, koi humdum na raha ke notes likh liye aap ne?

  26. 226
    satyansh Says:

    Guys, first of all a disclaimer again – I do not consider myself to be qualified to speak about these legends at all. These are just my opinions based upon what I have learnt and I started sharing them only because of the false-notions propagated by a certain group of people. Qualified people are ones like Surajit, Khan, Paramjeet, Arghya, Vithal, Lalit, Srivas, etc. and those who teach music. I am just a student and a listener. As Arghya knows, I don’t even have many songs and I mostly talk from memory. So all that follows is simply my opinion.

    Paramjeet ji,
    Aapke teen pehloo yeh darshate hain ki aapne meri baaton ka saransh bilkul nikal liya hai. Mujhe kuch kehna bhi nahi pada :-).

    Points (1) aur (2) to hum sab samajh gaye hain aur bekaar mein iss baat par charcha nahi karenge. Yeh keval jaankaari ke liye tha, hame doosron ki tarah kissi ke baare mein bura kehne ki koi zaroorat nahi hai. Mai janta tha aap sab jaankaar hain aur samajh jayenge.

    Points (1) and (2) led into (3) aur uske baare mein maine Post 214 mein kaha tha. Aapne phir bilkul sahi baatein ki. Of course, swar hit karne ke saath gayak ki awaaz mein zyada badlav bhi nahi aana chahiye. I believe that as you move towards the opposite ends of ones range, you will notice “some” change in most peoples voice – it is only natural and it varies from person to person. Voice gets heavier as it gets lower and thinner on the higher notes – how thin and where it starts thinning depends on how much “non-nasal bass” you can output, etc. Sustain karne ke to bahut phayde hain, par aadmi iske bagair bhi kuch gaa sakta hai. For example, drut laya mein taan lete waqt ek unche note ko chookar (touch/kiss) aa jaye ya gaate samay keval ek quick svar upar laga le. Ye karna bhi mushkil hai par iske liye shayad sustain karna itna zaroori nahi hai. Waise yadi aadmi solid range dekhe to mai kahunga usme wohi notes hone chahiye jisme yeh teenon pehloo fit baithte hon aur yeh keval modal register se nikle notes hon. Isme Hindi geeton ke liye falsetto register (jiske Hindi music mein sartaj Kishore the) ya whistle register use nahi karna chahiye. Steady hone ke saath mai isme ek aur “sub-pehloo” add karunga aur woh hai harkatein. Yeh bhi dekhna chahiye ki kya gayak uss svar par head, chest, etc. voices mein gaa sakta hai, awaaz kitni khuli rehti hai, etc. Issi liye maine Manna Dey ke baare mein kaha ki “…Tara mein jo note woh hit karte the unme woh bhi nipuN the aur kyonki unki classical/semi-classical ki jaankaari aur pakad zyada thi mere hisaab se woh ek zyada siDH gayak the… Playback singing ke liye filmy awaaz hona bahut zaroori hai aur usme Rafi, Kishore, etc. zyada aage the…”. Aur saath hi X-factor (very subjective) ki bhi baat hai aur usme to mere hisaab se Kishore sabse aage the. On these lines, if we now think about Lata and Asha we realize one of the many reasons they were so great. Aap gaur karen ki jiss female awaaz ko Hindi geeton mein tez samjha jata hai woh kai prakaar ke non-Hindi geeton mein use hoti hai. Hum keval Hindi sugam sangeet ki baat kar rahe hain. Also, I will further elaborate why I believe simply hitting a note is not important for the purpose of our discussion by requesting you to listen to Charles Kellogg, Adam Lopez, etc. Inn do namo ka zikar maine pehle bhi uss dusri site mein kiya tha jab log kehte ki Rafi ka super-human range tha jo koi aadmi touch nahi kar sakta tha lol. People can hit notes much lower and higher than the singers we are talking about, but we should not confuse that with them being better singers, atleast not Hindi film singers since that is what we are talking about. Also, just for the sake of knowledge, I would encourage people to hear some of Mariah Carey’s songs in the whistle register (I don’t believe she does that anymore) and then also hear Whitney Houston who has a much more powerful voice in my opinion.

    As a side note, according to me, if people have round-about the same range, it does not really matter much if one can hit a couple of higher notes and the other can hit a couple of lower notes. It is more important to see what they can do in their range aur unki sur par pakad kitni hai, voice culture kaisa hai, etc. One can try to adjust the song to the singer’s scale. Of course, this does not always work as many compositions simply don’t sound as good on a different scale. Maine to dekha hai ki kuch log practice karte samay 2-3 extra notes hit karne ka prayatna karte hain (do upar aur ek neeche) jabki logon ke saamne unn notes par gaate nahi :-). Aur dheere dheere karke phir gala khul bhi jata hai aur woh note gayak ke repertoire mein add ho jata hai.

    Vithal ji,
    Rafi sustained a “Dha” in tara is all I would say. I would like to refrain from commenting much on the highest note in that song and I hope you’d understand why. Contrary to what some people might have said, I think it is a very difficult song to sing at that scale simply because not many sing at that scale. One could start singing at a lower key (lower the “Sa”) and it would probably be easier. Rafi’s voice had good bass and that is why he could carry that song at that scale. Even the way Rafi says “Ishq” in “Ishq Bagawat Kar Baithe To” is outstanding. He says it like a rebel, simply beautiful. I would just request you to listen to the aspects I pointed out in the earlier posts and you’ll get the point towards the end of the song. Overall I love the “feel” of the song and don’t want to get into that detail since people get the drift. The point that the qualified musicians that you spoke to might have made is that you can change the scale of less than 2 octave songs to your “Sa” and that would make them easier (not easy, but easier). Obviously, you can’t do that with Ghantasala’s number since it covers a wider range of notes and a singer just has to have a wider range. I don’t believe it is fair to compare Ghantasala to Rafi. Ghantasala is in a different league. There are a couple of points people could make that are not in favor of Ghantasala, however, they are very few indeed and I don’t want to discuss that either. Every singer has their strengths and overall he is indeed GREAT. I would request you to continue to share more songs of Ghantasala especially in the comedy genre – if you could write a post with his comedy songs that would be awesome. Based upon the type of melodious music back in the day, would Ghantasala have songs in the “experimental RDB” mould?

    While both Rafi numbers are great, I rate “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale” marginally better than “Zindabaad” and it has more room to play with. I brought it up in point (2) earlier to highlight how beautifully Rafi rendered the second Bhagwaan amongst other things. I would have loved to hear him sing a note lower since the beautiful composition does allow for that and I wonder what it would sound like in Rafi’s sweet voice. Could anyone speculate and/or tell me why he didn’t sing it a note lower? I wonder because in the end he is beautifully singing “Rakhwaale, Rakhwaale, Rakhwaale”, he could simply have added one more “Rakhwaale” in the end as he possibly did in a live version to keep that beauty alive. I would have really liked to hear it that way too. Request Arghya and everybody to share thoughts on this. Surajit ji, we would love to see you partake in the discussion.

  27. 227
    Vitthal Says:

    Satyansh ji,

    Thanks sir for your post. Surajit ji’s participation would certainly be an interesting picture here. Even many rafi fans were not able to comment on zindabad zindabad, o duniya ke rakhwale & another song subah na aayee etc. . I think Mr. Khan in rafi forum stated that in all the above songs of rafi the highest notes are relatively lower than the highest sa note in tara octave. With great due respects to Mr. Khan, i would like to hear more on the highest notes from Mr. Surajit as well.

    On RDB’s experimental songs, could you list out some extraordinary numbers of kishore – so that I can try to share some ghantasala songs in that experimental league. This is because, I think many of the songs are not in you tube, but in other links, for which access too has become difficult. Therefore, if some specific songs are listed, i can try to share them, as searching for songs also have become difficult.

  28. 228
    Vitthal Says:

    Satyansh ji,

    There are some links here, for your views please. First one is typical melody number (audio quality is not that great needs improvement, but you would get overall view)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6AJ0bmcTn8

    These songs I have shared earlier with Arghya ji, which I wanted to share with you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEQHfH812fs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Zi5Cxu4Gc

    For your views satyansh ji.

  29. 229
    satyansh Says:

    Vithal ji,

    There is no problem in telling you what note Rafi hit. I am not sure why Rafi fans were not able to give you that information, maybe they know what we are talking about ;). I am certain that Rafi sustained a “Dha” in tara and that is all I would say, you have to get the drift. I don’t want to stir up anything. I think you did not get what I said because you didn’t hear that part of the song and I am not saying it directly, but rather requesting you to figure out when you hear the song. You would get it as soon as you hear it. Paramjeet ji and Arghya ji get what I am saying. Please hear the song.

    I haven’t heard “Subah Na Aayee” in a while, I don’t remember it being as high as Zindabaad. Are you talking about the lines “…Doori Hai” and “Aa Jao”? Maybe we are talking about different songs. Also, Zindabaad is higher than Rakhwaale, but again you have to hear Zindabaad (after the parts I mentioned earlier) and read between the lines.

    Ghantasala did sing with much more ease, if that helps you understand what I am saying without having to say it :-).

    Arghya and Paramjeet would certainly be better placed to share RDB songs.

    Surajit, you are in demand.

  30. 230
    Vitthal Says:

    Satyansh ji,

    Thanks for the information, I got it. Fully agree with you on ghantasala as well ( it need not be mentioned, it is known)

  31. 231
    paramjeet Says:

    Vitthalji baat ko nahi samjhe..
    Sir, woh line jo mention kiya aur uske baad mein chorus mein se jo awaaz aati hai ‘zindabad zindabad..’ usko sune..sun ne ke baad samajh jaye to bas bol dijiyega samajh gaye hai aur kuchh nahi:)
    Satyanshji , apki baaton se main sahmat hoon kaafi had tak.. Lataji aur Ashaji ke upar aapka observations bhi acha hai.. Range hi sirf ek kalakaar ki pehchaan nahi hai, aur bhi bahut saari chhezein hai.. Low and high notes pe awaaz badalnewali baat bhi theek hai..jo jitna nasal hai woh utna shrill lagega high notes par.
    Mere hisaab se notes sustainence zyada important hai notes hit karna hi nahi.. of course voice stability ke saath..

    Badhti umar ki baat maine is liye ki kyunki-
    * har gayak ka comfort range hota hai jahan par woh naturally travel kar sakta hai.. Kuchh notes upar aur kuchh notes neeche woh control sikhta hai riyaaz ke zariye.. Magar woh uska natural range nahi hai.. Jab umar badhti hai to practised notes pe clarity kam ho jaati hai aur notes hit karne mein bhi taqlif.. Jo gayak umar ke saath saath jo jo notes pe control lose nahi karta woh naturally us octaves mein belong karta hai..

    Kishore Kumar ka 50 saal ke baad bhi udara saptak mein madhyam hit karna aur sustain karna yehi prove karta hai woh ‘naturally us octave mein belong karte the’.. bas isi liye maine woh age wali baat bhi kahi thi aur bola ke main baad mein charcha karunga…

  32. 232
    paramjeet Says:

    aur ek cheez bolna chahunga ‘voice stability’ ke upar..

    Jab aap koi high notes ya low notes hit karte hai to yeh kalakar ko dhyan rakhna chahiye ke sunnewalon ko yeh pata nahi lagna chahiye zyada high ya low notes hit ho rahe hai.. In the sense,, ek voice uniformity maintained hona chahiye..

    Kishore jab low notes pe pancham ya madhyam tak bhi hit karte the to unki voice texture change nahi hoti thi jab ki anya gayak ‘dha’ tak bhi jaye to samajh mein aa jata hai ‘bhai low ha rahe hai’… Yeh bhi ek kamaal ki baat hai.. Magar yeh tab pata chalega jab aap notes sustainance ko dekhe.. Jaise Satyanshji bole, notes chhu kar hi wapas aa jaane se is baat ki mahatva samajh mein nahi aayegi..

  33. 233
    Anil Says:

    Some nice debates and that’s why I’m here. I agree with Paramjeet on the high-low notes issues.. hitting, sustaining and sounding good/cool/relaxed is the real test. Agree with him again on the ‘natural scale’ thing and the changes it undergoes with the singers’ age. However can’t agree fully on the natural scale as well as the low-note mastery of Kishore especially vis-a-vis Rafi. Baritone Kishore Vs Tenor Rafi is more of a myth. Both the singers have more or less the same natural scale. Rafi’s is slightly higher and his absolute range was also higher. In his early days, Rafi could hit a low pa (g#2) and was quite comfortable at low dha (a2). Kishore did hit the low pa (g2) in his youth rather coolly and I believe he could have gone another full note down (f2) with some effort. Once into their mid- late ’40s, both the singers were much more comfortable in the middle-high notes. Kishore, though could still hit a low pa, his voice wasn’t too pleasant when he hit them. The strain is quite obvious is ‘koi hota..’ and even in ‘mere naina…’. The voice wasn’t exactly well-defined when he hit that low pa in ‘pyar humein…’. Rafi wasn’t getting anything in the low notes post 70 but when he did try something, he was not very far from Kishore of the ’70s. He was quite good in ‘boonde nahin sitare..’ (low ni) and in his live shows he could manage a reasonable low dha when he sang ‘man tarpat..’ and ‘duniya ke rakhwale…’.
    To me Kishore’s best notes would be from about mid ri (d3) to high sa (c4) and Rafi’s would be mid ga (e3) to high ma (f4). I like Kishore best when he sings medium high notes with his no-holds barred style and not when he croons the low-notes.
    By the way, would anyone care to tell me what’s the big secret with ‘zindabad..’. Are you implying that someone was supporting Rafi when he sang the line following the chorus or that he wasn’t sounding okay?

  34. 234
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,
    Apne sahi kaha, badthi umar aur riyaaz nahi karne se problems aati hain. Hum sabne shayad logon ko apne range mein bhi zyada vibrate hote suna hai. Par woh to umar ka pher hai. Stage par gaane se bhi awaaz mein antar aata hai aisa maine suna hai. I feel up until a certain age people can keep getting better as far as singing is concerned if they practice.

    Vithal ji,
    I loved “Rasika Raja …” the most. Thank you for sharing.

    I’d request input from all on the following two items for a change of topic:
    First up, … Arghya had asked the following question earlier and I am putting it hear to see what others think. The question is:
    Which of the following five generations of MDs do you like Kishore the most with? I would request you guys to elaborate on what genres you feel Kishore explored more with the different MDs and the reason(s) for your choice.
    1st Generation- Khemchand Prakash, Anil Biswas etc.
    2nd Generation- SD Burman,SJ,Madan Mohan,Salil etc.
    3rd Generation- RD Burman,LP,KA,Ravindra Jain etc.
    4th Generation- RajeshRoshan, Bappi, Anu Malik etc.
    5th Generation- Anand Milind,Nadeem Shravan etc.

    Secondly, maybe we can ask simple questions such as these – one category at a time. Who is your favorite singer for songs of intoxication (keval sharab ke nashe waale gaane)?

  35. 235
    satyansh Says:

    Anil,
    I am not sure if you are the same Anil from the other site, but you are more than welcome to share your knowledge in a courteous manner. Also glad to see you liked the discussions. Hopefully, this round would not result in unpleasantries.

    I do agree that Kishore sounds best in middle-high notes in his open flowy voice. It is one of my favorite voices. I like Rafi’s middle-high octave songs too. His voice is exceptionally sweet in many of them, and I feel SDB made real good use of that.

    While you did get the point that we are making with regards to notes from the modal register, do you think you are selling both singers short? Yes, it is true that both Kishore and Rafi (as also Manna Dey) have an almost similar natural scale, a few notes here and there; and that is why I had to request clarification from Paramjeet ji to see if he was talking about simply hitting a note because there is more to it :). I feel that at the notes they hit it is about how nipuN (adept) they are in their range amongst other things (one of the reasons why I tend to lean towards Manna Dey as a singer – playback is different :)). No discussions on Manna Dey now though. I would request you to listen to the songs mentioned in [point (2) post 214] and since you already see that Rafi sounded comfortable with the low notes; share your thoughts on Kishore’s comfort-level with the high notes. Obviously, you can tell us what notes they hit. Also, was it higher than what you said Kishore sounded comfortable in?

    You said that Kishore croons in the lower notes. Is it really possible to croon in the lower notes if you can’t touch them or are not comfortable in those notes? One can croon or go into head voice when singing high notes, but I feel that the voice naturally gets deeper and it becomes unsteady and unclear as you sing lower. Are you confusing Kishore’s “CHaani hui awaaz” (“Ek Ajnabee Haseena Se”, “Roop Tera Mastana”, etc.) with him hitting low notes? He used that voice pretty much in the middle octave as I believe it is very difficult to sing in that voice in the lower scale, and if he did (you’d need to give examples), I would honestly be even more amazed at Kishore’s genius. Clarify what you mean by crooning in the lower notes where a person is not comfortable. Also, I felt he was very steady and clear in “Koi Hota Jisko Apna” and the vibrations were natural to him. Could you give examples of Rafi hitting a low Pa? While “Boondein Nahin Sitare” is a fine song, I don’t feel it is a good example of hitting the low notes. Rafi has done much better himself.

    I hope others don’t say anything about “Zindabaad” either. You can pay attention to the parts mentioned in [point (1) post 214] and be the judge. Everybody is free to interpret. No one is maligning any singer here, so don’t be concerned about that.

    Paramjeet ji,
    Apne kaha aap meri baaton se kaafi had tak sehmat the. Aap agar meri kissi baat se sehmat nahi aur mai agar kuch galat likhun to kripya bejhijhak usse sudharen :). Waise janab, aapse poochna yeh tha ki kya apne kissi ko Hindi cinema mein whistle register mein gaate suna hai? Mujhe lagta hai Kishore ka ek geet ya ek movie thi jisme unhone ek ajeeb awaaz nikali thi whistle register se. Aapko yaad ho to bataiyega. If Arghya or anybody else remembers it please do let me know.

    Vithal ji,
    If you have any examples of people singing in the whistle register in Telugu cinema, please do share. I need to check something.

    Arghya,
    Who sang “Tune Abhi Dekha Nahi” for Shashi Kapoor’s “baithi-hui” awaaz in the movie “Do Aur Do Paanch”? Was it all Kishore?

  36. 236
    arghya Says:

    Anil Post 232.

    Warm welcome..Your view on natural and absolute scales of both the legends are very appreciative. For Rafi, you said:

    1. Natural scale of Rafi: Mid ‘ga’ to high ‘ma’ with absolute scale higher. Yes, even I feel so, his absolute scale is somewhere at ‘dha’ on the high.

    2. Natural scale of kishore: Mid ‘re’ to high ‘sa’. You did not mention about absolute scale.

    Whereas I agree with your viewpoint on Rafi although I find him quite natural in mid’re’ or ‘sa’ also.. Yes, even till his later years.. No issues there..

    Coming to Kishore, I am quite sure his natural scale is two notes down than you mentioned and two notes higher than you mentioned. It is a low “dha” to high “ga”..

    You said://” The voice wasn’t exactly well-defined when he hit that low pa in ‘pyar humein” .// It is not ‘pa’ it is upto ‘ma’.. And as Paramjeet said he did not sound like hitting so low.. Also giving a touch of Amitabh’s mannerism in such a depth is quite a stunner for me, Anil.

    You said://” Kishore, though could still hit a low pa, his voice wasn’t too pleasant when he hit them. The strain is quite obvious is ‘koi hota..’ and even in ‘mere naina…’. //

    “Koi hota” is not only bacause of the low notes Anil. It is more challenging because of the asymmetric order of notes which Salil arranged.. Listen to the Mukhda:

    ko-i ho-ta jis-ko a-p-na . It progresses like:(all Majors)
    ga-dha sa-ni dha-ni sa-ni-dha

    So, in start of mukhda you have hopping notes in medium to high octave.

    Now, towards the end of mukhda

    le-kin koi-i me-ra ap-na
    sa-ni sa-ni sa-sa dha-pa

    In one mukhda altogether, Anil, you can see the notes hopping from mid ‘ga’ to high ‘sa’ and then suddenly after the line “paas nahi to door hi hota” it comes down and spends substantial time on the lower register as low as “pa”.. In the antara it goes as high as high “ga” also( koi dilasa hota..), just listen that will also show Kishore being very much natural upto “ga” on third also.. He has ventured higher than that also, but that case, I would agree more with you as to an “absolute measure” but not a “natural meausure”..

    You said :// “Kishore did hit the low pa (g2) in his youth rather coolly and I believe he could have gone another full note down (f2) with some effort.”//

    No, Anil, he could hit a “ma” as coolly as ever. Read Paramjeet’s post carefully as he has already explained and listen to the song recorded at the age of 52 by him.

    Now, these two songs just see where Kishore starts:

    1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLL_MbcHBFM&feature=PlayList&p=63108264AB4A298E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4

    Recorded in 1953. Age around 24.

    2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ2z8lG_8II

    Recorded in 1974. age around 45.

    “dha” on the lowest Kishore originally belonged Anil not absolutely..
    Also the same for high “ga”

    Thanks again for the post..

    Cheers.!!

  37. 237
    paramjeet Says:

    anilji,
    Pehli baat to yeh ki hindi filmon mein ek gayak ka low notes control pe zyada explorations nahi hua hai.. Generally us octave ke gaane screen pe us zamane mein zyada fit nahi baithta tha.. jitne bhi gaane hue hai woh bhi khaas kar ke bengali composers ka compose kiya hua(anil biswas, salil, hemant, burmans).. Kyunki bangali music jitna mujhe arghyaji ki baaton se samajh mein aaya hai, traditionally lowest octave pe control aurr sustainence zyada demand karta hai.. Rabindra sangeet ke jo list arghyaji ne share kiye hai woh suniyega to bhi aapko pata chalega.. 1-2 gaane chhodke, baaki sabhi mein low notes hitting aur sustainence kaafi obvious hai..

    Rafi sahab ka range jo aapne bola maine thoda bahut usi mein charcha kiya tha..

    Kishoreda ke range pe aapki view mujhe thoda biased laga..
    1. Koi hota jisko apna mein low notes hitting pe aapne kaha aapko voice texture achhi nahi lagi.. But us gaane mein mujhe stability koi problem nazar nahi aaya.. Jaise arghyaji bole in fact us gaane mein low octave sustainence ek bada test tha.. Main sochta tha yeh gaana mukeshji ko kyun nahi diya gaya? Jabki mukeshji ka lowest octave control bhi achha tha aur mukeshji salilda ke natural choice hua karte the na ke kishoreda.. Koi producer pressure bhi nahi honi chahiye kyunki mukeshji usi movie mein ek dusra gaana bhi gaye hai aur salil chowdhury ya gulzar koi bhi compromising log nahi the.. Yeh sawal ka jawab hi hai SUSTAINENCE, anilji mere hisaab se.. Is gaane mein lowest octave bhi sustain karna padta hai aur highest bhi.. yeh gaane mein teen cheezein hai:

    1. Notes sustainence(high aur low dono)
    2. Spontaneous switching of notes(jaise arghyaji ne bola bahut hi asymmetric notes hai)
    3. Proper conveyance of feel. Khuli awaaz mein.

    Rafi sahab low ‘pa’?? Woh bhi sustainence aur voice texture change na karte hue? thoda substantiate kariyega pl..

    Kishoreda udara saptak mein madhyam tak bahut hi normal the.. Koi effort to nazar nahi aaya mujhe.. Haan highes mein ‘ga’ ke aage kabhi kabhar laga zaroor hai.. Magar stayanshji ka bhi kaafi valid point hai.. Padosan ke woh gaane pe aapka kya khayal hai anilji??

  38. 238
    arghya Says:

    Satyansh 233.
    Yes, I had asked that question some time back in another forum. As Kishore Kumar has seen five generations of Music Directors coming ruling and going in his career of 40 years. Some appreciative, some accolading, some overwhelming and some not that receptive.

    1 st generation:

    Here , we are talking of Khemchand Prakash, Naushad, Anil biswas,Husnlal Bhagatram etc. I think it is a mixed bag here. As KP was one of the earliest admirers of Kishore, Naushad was real resistant. The toughest of them all not to at all accept Kishorian singing till his last days..But surprisingly, Naushad was again a disciple of Khemchand Prakash- the admirer of Kishore singing.. If Lata is to be believed, then it was KP and not SD, who actually cultivated the non-Saigalish singing in Kishore spending hours together.

    Four of my all time most favourite Kishore songs hail from 1 st generation, viz, Jagmag jagmag karta nikla chand(KP), Husn bhi hai udaas udaas(AB), Aa mohabbat ki basti(AB) and Woh meri taraf yun chale aa rahe hai(HB). Anil Biswas was not using that much Kishore, but he later admitted itwas more so because of public’s non acceptance of Kishorian style of signign those days. He was very staisfied with the singing of Kishore for him in Fareb.. KP’s untimely death in 1950 was a major setback for Kishore’s singing career, I would have loved to see more exploration of Kishore from KP..

    2nd Generation:

    This is the generation from which Kishore got maximum resistance. While SD, C Ramchandra and to some extent Hemant were appreciative enough to hand him over great melodies, the younger group of Madan, OP, Salil, Roshan, Shankar Jaikishen, Chitragupta were highly resistive. Salil did change his views later, so did Shankar,Chitragupta and Jaikishen. OP refused. It was a mixed bag again, as this is the only generation which raised questions on Kishore’s technical competence also.. But as Salil put later” We all were wrong.. It is Dada Burman to whom should go the credit of identifying the glimpse of genius in this boy which we all ignored unknowingly that time”..
    Many of my all time favourite Kishore songs lie in this generation.. I dont know where to put Kishore himself as a MD though.. I would put him in third generation going by chronology..

    3 rd Generation:

    This is the generation which accoladed and embraced singer Kishore and made him prosper with experimentation, variation, challenges and metamorphing him into a complete singer. Goes the credit to Kishore Kumar himself( Jhumroo, DGKCM, DKR), R D Burman, Kalyanji Anandji and Laxmikant Pyarelal. Ravindra Jain, Usha Khanna, Shyamal Mitra, Basu Manohari, Sapan Jagmohan all chipped in between to give some of their all time bests to Kishore. Contribution wise, the third generation MDs were Kishore Kumar MDs.. When Bhupen Hazarika, Shivkumar Sharma and Hariprasad Chaurasia etc. ventured selectively into film music, they could think of Kishore only..

    Lata Mangeshkar composed two songs for Kishore..

    4th Generation:

    They could not breathe without Kishore.. They made their debut in mid 70s and for all their good, not so good or ugly compositions also, to make them popular- they needed that voice. As Rajesh Roshan says in the documentory “Zindagi ek Safar”(latest renewed version), he felt like embracing Kishore during the recording of “Dil Kya Kare..” when his mother said “dont do, he will feel disturbed”..But Junior Roshan rushed and embraced Kishore after recording and then ventured into an association with a singer whom his father had rejected after trying out in four movies 22 years back.. Bappi lived and breathed on Kishore.. With Kishore’s death, Bappi soon faded.. Nobody could convert those mediocre compositions into chartbusters than Kishore.. Some may look at it in abad way, some good, but it was a talent that Kishore could turn stones into jewels..

    5th Generation

    They had very few times to work with Kishore. But songs like “Zindagi hai tadapna” for Chandru or “Apno mein main begana” for Annu or ” Maine tumse kuchh nahi maanga” for Rajkamal showed given some time, they would have in long term grabbed that pillar called Kishore to grow up also.

    Thanks.

  39. 239
    paramjeet Says:

    arghyaji 235

    Kya gaaana hai bhai woh! Jo uttam kumar pe picturize kiya hai!! Uske hindi version ke liye kishoreda popular hai, magar kya zabardast hai yaar yeh bangla wala!

    Mujhe ek labz bhi samajh mein nahi aaya.. Magar ek gaane mein bol hi kaafi nahi hai, woh feeling, woh depth! Thanks bhai.. Aapse kishoreda ke un pehluon ka pata chala jo main jaanta bhi nahi tha..

    dil aesa ksisne mera toda ek behetareen gana hai, magar is gaane ki to baat hi nairaali hai.. Dusre anatare pe jab guruji high mein jaate hai, kya feelings hai bhai! Main bahut subjective lag raha hoon par kya karein..

    Is gaane ke baare mein thoda details mein batayein..

  40. 240
    arghya Says:

    Paramjeet 238

    Nice you liked the song.. Although the song was posted by me to show something else, your emotional reply to this song really proves music is not at all bound in languages…

    Yes, Paramjeet , there is a whole story going behind this. It is just a story and no trivia. The year was 1974 and Shakti Samanta planned to do “Amanush” with a Bong and a Hindi version.. He chose people who could adept to the regional and national audience properly like Uttam and Sharmila in lead roles, Shyamal Mitra as the Music Director and Kishore as the lead playback singer. Kishore agreed to do 5 out of 6 songs( 3 in Hindi and 2 in Bengali) except this one.. He said ” I wont sing this, Shyamal Babu(Shyamal mitra), you please sing this yourself”.. Shyamal was taken aback initially and said” No, Kishoreda( this is a great relationship they used to share, as Shyamal babu told after Kishoreda’s death, Kishore used to call him “babu” and he used to address him as “da”), this is not a Hindi movie where multiple singers can give playback to a single hero.. This is a Bengali movie, audience wont accept this, you only have to sing”

    People say, the resistance came from Kishore because the wordings of this song “Ki ashay badhi khelaghar badhi khelaghar bedonaar baluchore” resembled very closely to Kundan Lal Saigal’s Bengali version ” Badhinu michhe ghar bhuler baluchore” from Desher Mati(1938).. Which would have resulted in comparison which Kishore detested always.. The tempo of both the songs also being similar..( I have been searchig for this Saigal song for a long time, but still could not get)

    Whatever, Kishore took around 2 weeks of time and then while flying back to Kolkata from Bomaby in the flight, he thought out of a tune – slightly modifying the original( again I think bringing it down nearer to the lowest register) and afetr landing, when he went to the studio he sang it to Shyamal. Shyamal was astounded and immediately changed the whole musical of the song and recorded just the way Kishore had amended it..

    During the release of the film, Shyamal insisted Kishore’s name to be put in jointly as the music director of the film to which Kishore bluntly refused saying “Sab kaaj to apni i korechhen, aami to shudhu kichhu add korechhi”( You have done the entire stuff, what I did was just to add something..).. This is Kishore Kumar for you, Paramjeet.. Who knows how many ghost compositions he had made for the Burmans…

    This song is a milestone in Bong movies.. You need not know the language to understand the feelings, the depth and the sincerity with which Kishore had renderd this..

    And of course, technicalities are very well there.. lol…

  41. 241
    Anil Says:

    Arghya:
    I didn’t really spell out the natural scale of the singers; I was speaking about the ‘best’ notes (notes at which they are most pleasant to hear). The absolute range for Rafi at prime would be 2 octaves plus 1-2 full notes and Kishore at prime would be 1-2 full notes short of 2 octave range.
    About ‘koi hota…’, I wasn’t referring to the strain while switching notes, I have no issues with Kishore there; actually he did them very well. But does he sound his best in the ‘lekin hoi mera apna…’ part? Or shall I ask in a different way, would Kishore have sounded the same had he sung it in ’62 rather than ’72 (I hope I’m correct about the year). Ditto with ‘mere naina..’. In the scale the song was set, Kishore would have (purely from a singing angle) done a better job in ’65. Let me make it clear; I’m not actually comparing Kishore of ’70s to Rafi of ’70s. My points are that the ‘bottom’ of both these singers’ had been affected by the age and the wear and tear factors though their respective highs were pretty much in tact and that ‘Kishore ruled low notes and Rafi high notes’ is too much generalisation. About ‘pyar humein..’ I stick to my stance. I don’t believe Kishore would have sounded different at ‘le aayaa-aa-aa’ had it been, say Rishi Kapoor on screen. I agree the effort is worth a big applause considering his age and the fact that he wasn’t singing much at the low registers at that point of time.

  42. 242
    Anil Says:

    Paramjeetji:
    My Hindi is not the kind to try out in public forums.. but I understand it well enough, so you have to excuse me for posting in English. I am not a neutral music follower/ lover. I have my favourites in all the different forms of music I follow. In HFM, Rafi is my all-time favourite male singer followed by Talat Mehmood and Manna Dey. I like Mukesh as well. I certainly like to listen to Kishore and it is him (and these days Mukesh too) that I turn to when I feel like listening to something ‘different’. If this all makes me a biased music fan I have no issues wearing that cap.
    It is nice discussing music with someone as well-trained as you are and actually we two are mostly speaking the same things. I am yet to listen to the songs Satyansh mentioned but I think I know the songs already. I will surely listen to them and come back with my views.
    Speaking of ‘koi hota..’, I don’t consider it an average effort; it is quite good. The voice is stable and the texture is not affected much in the lower notes. But it is not appealing (to my ears) as the voice in say ‘pyar deewana hota hai….’ or ‘pal pal dil ke paas..’. It may be because I have listened to some brilliant low-note singing from the South Indian Film music, especially by K.J.Yesu Das. Remember again, I am comparing Kishore with Kishore; Kishore of low notes Vs Kishore of medium to high notes and Kishore of ’70s to Kishore of ’50s/’60s.

  43. 243
    arghya Says:

    Anil. Post 240.

    Ok, so, I made an understanding problem regarding your take on absolute scales. But if your definiton is to be believed, Anil, then I would disagree more here than your other view..

    If you talk about the best notes, Anil, and put Kishore at around 2 octaves, I would agree. For me it is “pa” to “re”- about 12 notes as Paramjeet had earlier mentioned where he sounded the best.

    But then to say, Rafi “sounded best” for more than two octaves is a bit exaggaration, honestly speaking. I hope although sounding best is a subjective term, you would not say the way Rafi had sang “hai” in Toote hue khwabon ne (the lowest note) “sounded best”?? Rafi was never comfortable anthing less than ‘ni’ in his earlier years and ‘sa’ in his later yeras. Of course, he had theoritically hit notes, but is it everything? And since you have clearly defined you are talking of “best notes”, Rafi clearly lies between mid “re” to high “ma”- thaz all..

    Anything lower or higer -either end- Rafi never sounded “best”, Anil. “Dil ke jharokhe mein..” is upto ‘ma’- Rafi sounds good there..(and also gives a signal he has reached the extreme of the spectrum) The protion we are talking of in “Zindabad zindabad..” is that change in voice texture only Anil while he goes upto “dha”.. The part “woh patthar hai insaan kaha..” and then immediately after when he sings with chorus as noticed very evidently by folks here, Anil- there is an absolute change in voice texture.. This is not “best sounding” notes,Anil! At high pitch, this voice is called something else..Otherwise, as long as he was within high ‘ma’- he was beautiful in that song..

    Now, you might argue about best notes of Kishore not lying in the lowest octave(which seems from your post, as you started Kishore’s best notes from mid ‘re’).. You might not have gone through my youtube links especially the second one,, leaving apart the fact it is a milestone song in Bong movies, I wanted to draw your attention to the fact where Kishore starts the song and the notes he hits towards the word “khelaghar”- it is basically a two words mixed word-“khela” and “ghar”- a clear requirement hence to sustainance.. It makes the song more attractive and so many people have tried that song on stage and otherwise, no one could bring that beauty in that word without sounding too heavy or without sining the voice.

    Comparing “”Koi hota jisko apna”(1971) with a hypothetical “Koi hota ” in 1961: Does it make any difference Anil if there is no technical error? Kishore’s voice took a heavier and bassier texture over the years, so, in 1961 he could have never “sounded alike”.. just like he did not sound alike with the original “sahara” of Koi humdum na raha when he later sang it on stage.. But thta is “voice bass”! What does it have to do with instability of hitting notes? Instability occurs while hitting and sustaining lower notes (which are continous four here, still I am ignoring the challenge part of it) if the voice texture goes for a toss-“apna” sounding entirely different than “lekin koi mera”– which is not this case!( But “hai” sounded suddenly different than “humko yeh sikhaya” the point I mentioned earlier) Neither his voice sinks making the words at the lowest notes unclear..! So, comparing this with a mid 50 or mid 60 song does not make any sense to me- both have attraction in both ways- bassier or mid-bassy.

    Cheers!! And this time I find your posts much more to the point than the earlier posts of your colleagues!! Thanks for being on the topic..

  44. 244
    satyansh Says:

    Paramjeet ji,

    Mujhe aapki aur Arghya ji ki posts padh ke bahut mazaa aa raha hai. Aap bilkul seedhi baat karte hain. Mai to keval prashna pooch ke samajhdaar ko guide karne ka prayatna karta hoon, aap seedha hi bol dete hain lol. Kaafi mazedaar aur accha style hai, please yoonhi bane rahiye. Rafi ke low pa ki sustainability ke examples to mai bhi sunna chahta hoon.

    Open, flowing aur Kishore jitni tagadi awaaz mein to bahut kam gaate honge. Mukesh mujhe bahut pasand hain par yeh gaana MD ne Kishore se soch kar hi gavaya hoga. Some people start talking about “xyz” new singer singing Kishore’s songs. They don’t realize ki na to woh Kishore jaise khul ke gaate hain na hi unme Kishore ki awaaz ka dum hai. Kuch anjaan log Kishore ke gaane ko “throating” ka naam dete hain.

    Whistle register ke baare mein mai isliye pooch raha tha kyonki mere khayal mein Kishore ne woh ek baar gaya tha ya kissi comedy picture ke scene mein masti ki thi (Sadhu aur Shaitan??), yaad nahi aa raha ki yeh sach hai ya khayal. Agar sach mein gaya tha to woh HFM mein shayad highest note hoga (not from modal register). This is just for the sake of information and would be another small skill for the giant genius that is Kishore. I am not sure about it though.

    Agar, aap iss register se waqif nahi to yeh link kripaya dekhiye. Isme aur bhi bade diggajj kalakaar hain, yeh to keval ek bahut accha sample hai.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS3cgGKDC6Y

    Aur mujhe sach mein nahi pata ki Shashi Kapoor ka kharab-gale wala “Tune Abhi Dekha Nahi” kisne gaya tha. Woh trick question nahi tha :), aapko pata ho to please bataiye. Mujhe woh low awaaz bilkul Shashi Kapoor ki lagti thi aur high waali Kishore ki ek aur masti awaaz, par yeh gaana bhi suna nahi bahut samay se. Kishore ne to Pran ka bhi texture bilkul copy kiya tha “Aake Seedhi Lagi Mein” to isliye kuch keh nahi sakte.

    Anil,

    I hope you are going to share examples to substantiate your claims:
    1) Examples of Kishore crooning in the lower notes that he is not comfortable in. You should also explain what you mean by crooning in the lower notes.
    2) Examples of Rafi sustaining a low Pa.

    I’d also like to read your opinion on Kishore’s high notes in the 2 Padosan songs. Why don’t you spell out the notes in those songs as also what you think Rafi’s “2+” octave and Kishore’s “2-” octave absolute range was and substantiate it with examples? We do not simply dismiss claims such as the ones you made as everyone would view them on merit; we look forward to details, otherwise, it would be nothing more than another empty claim sidelining a good ongoing discussion between others. I hope you are not going to evade questions again.

    Regarding “Koi Hota”, everybody’s voice changes with age, but there was absolutely nothing wrong in terms of clarity and sustainability in Kishore’s rendering. He was steady and the vibrations were all natural to him, the timber was real – everyone would have few changes with age. In this case, I don’t understand the need for speculating if he would sound the same in 62 as opposed to 71 (or whatever) because he still sounds outstanding and pulled it off extremely well. Kishore was certainly at much more at easy than Rafi at lower notes and Rafi was more comfortable at higher notes; but it was just a couple of notes either ways, not much of a difference.

  45. 245
    paramjeet Says:

    arghyaji:
    Kya baat kar rahe ho bhaijaan? Kaun si cheez to the point lagi aapko anilji ke post mein.. Satyanshji ne teen sawal poocha:
    a. Low notes mein crooning kaise hota hai woh define kare aur kishoreji ne kab aesa kiya uska example de. No jawab.
    b. Rafi sahab ne kab low’pa’ sustain kiya voice uniformity ke saath example de. No jawab.
    c. Padosan ke gaane pe kishoreji ne naturally kaun se high notes hit kiye sun ke batayein aur yeh bhi batayein kya woh natural nahi tha? No jawab.
    d. Aap ko yeh bhi yaad hoga kuchh mahine pehle lalitji aur hamari jab baatein ho rahi thi yeh anilji ne kaha tha kishoreji karange kuchh khaas nahi hai na to unki yoodelling. Humlogon ne us time pe bhi unko kuchh examples diye the. Un saare sawalon ka bhi no jawab.
    To kaise woh to the point hue?

    Anilji:
    Main aapko is liye bias nahi bola kyunki aap rafi fan hai. Yahan pe satyanshji manna de fan hai aur vitthalji ghantashala fan. Kisiko bhi maine bias nahi bola. Main is liye aap ko bias bola kyunki aapne rafi sahab ke range par observations theek kiya magar kishoreda ke range ko kaant chhant ke chhota kar diya. To isi liye pehle krupaya Satyanshji ke un 3 prashnon ka jawab de to fir hum aage baat karenge sir.

    Satyanshji:
    Whistle register pe mujhe aesa koi guruji ka gaana yaad nahi aa raha. Waise Miss Marry picture mein ek gaana hai ‘gana na aaya bajana na aaya’ usmein kishoreji ka ooncha wala sur aapne suna kya? Youtube mein milega.. Kahi woh note hitting pe to aapki baat nahi chal rahi? Sunke batayega plss…

  46. 246
    Anil Says:

    Arghya, understanding probs again. I quote my own previous post-
    “To me Kishore’s best notes would be from about mid ri (d3) to high sa (c4) and Rafi’s would be mid ga (e3) to high ma (f4).”
    I hope I’m clear enough now. In the nutshell I like both these singers more when they sing out aloud and freely from the mid-octaves rather than when they go down low.
    I have absolutely no issues with you liking Kishore’s low notes, similarly you can’t be having any issues with my liking Rafi’s (relatively) low notes- some times with a changed texture.
    Yeah, Kale-ghor is a fine effort and let me say he sounded cooler here than ‘mera apna…’. Infact I like Kishore when he goes down, hit low and comes back.. it’s when he sings sustained low-notes (like in ‘lekin…….apna.) that I find him relatively laboured.

  47. 247
    Anil Says:

    Mr.Satyansh:
    I didn’t want to answer you in the firstplace. I thought you would have realised without my telling you. I just don’t like speaking to people who instructs me how to speak and how to behave.
    Speaking of ‘courteous manners’, do you think you have been courteous in your latest post? I might provide examples or I might not, you can’t bully me into it.
    I can give you many links on all the points, right from Rafi hitting G#2, to what exactly is the standard in low-pitch singing in film music. I don’ want to do it here and I have a reason. You may leave your email id here if you want to know what it is.
    Paramjeetji:
    The points a and b requires examples (with links) and I can’t give it here. If you can leave your email id here, let’s carry on the debate. Kishore appears (I am not too sure since I don’t have a key board with me) to have hit high ‘ga’ in both the songs with a full voice and ‘ma’ (F#4) with a head voice. Good efforts both… too bad he didn’t venture into much high note singing and too bad he did all the high note singing for comedy songs.
    This info, I think, takes care of point c. Now, to point d- I can’t remeber any one giving me examples of Kishore doing something extra-ordinary. Mr.Lalit did provide a link of one live show, other than that I can’t remember anything. If you can kindly provide some examples,I shall be happy to comment on them.

  48. 248
    paramjeet Says:

    anilji
    Ifuwant to cary on the discusion in private mails then u shud not have started the topic in an open forum.
    You and manyother rafi fan come say things and go. This is not corect spirit. Clarify things tecnically and go.
    Read ur first post and see what u claim.. We expect justificaton in open forum only.. Because i no when u wll go to some other forum then again u will start telling kishore did not have a good range and his voice was coars aur aapke collegues bolenge wah wah.. So pl answer here..

  49. 249
    arghya Says:

    Anil 245.

    I dont have any problem also if you dont like Kishore’s low notes and love Rafi’s low notes. It is only because when you said in post 232 that you agree with Paramjeet on //”I agree with Paramjeet on the high-low notes issues.. hitting, sustaining and sounding good/cool/relaxed is the real test. // and then saying in 245 that //you can’t be having any issues with my liking Rafi’s (relatively) low notes- some times with a changed texture.//.. Definitely a changed voice texture is not sounding good, cool and relaxed Anil. At least not in line with textbook. If you have any other views that voice texture change is an indication of sounding cool, good and relaxed then explain otherwise you are contradicting.. Any case, if you still think that change in texture is better than perhaps Kishore can give tough to Rafi also in high notes in that line of thought..lolz..

    I dont think there is any problem in answering Satyansh’s query though.. He questioned something to you based on some claims which were made by you only in post 232. Why not to clarify them with him, dear? I think that is better than to have bitterness in this forum because all are in good spirits and there is no intention from anyone to malign any legends..

    Satyansh.

    You talked about intoxicating or sharabi songs.. How about this one from the singing king of comedy songs composed by the composing king of comedy songs??

    By the way what is ur take on smooth pregression across octaves and spontaneous switching of notes across octaves.. Do different singers have different competencies there also?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOc6QhFMHKs

    Paramjeet.

    Being to the point does not always necessarily mean to answer queries.. I found the posts of Mr. Cherian dignified and pertaining to the points which we were discussing so I congratulated him. Of course, he should answer the questions.. As I also think the questions arose from some of the claims made by him only in the open forum. So, the explanation should not be in private I suppose.

    Thanks.

  50. 250
    satyansh Says:

    Anil,
    Fair enough, since you were not direct, I couldn’t tell. I am used to people being civil and direct. You were evading questions as usual and that is what needed to be highlighted. Anyways, I don’t want this to result in unpleasantries again. Most people remember how you and another person had given empty threats to people and that is why I spoke about being courteous. Do you really think me saying “…I am not sure if you are the same Anil from the other site, but you are more than welcome to share your knowledge in a courteous manner. Also glad to see you liked the discussions. Hopefully, this round would not result in unpleasantries…” is bullying and you guys threatening to kill people is not? lol hilarious. Do think about what I just said.

    I was sincerely welcoming you and I meant it. I do see how my post where I say “…We do not simply dismiss claims such as the ones you made as everyone would view them on merit; we look forward to details, otherwise, it would be nothing more than another empty claim sidelining a good ongoing discussion between others…” can be construed as being discourteous. I carried over a conversation from another source here and there wasn’t a need for that. I stand corrected. Myself along with some others feel that we’d like to see you you get into technical discussions, not superficial ones with claims. Regardless, neither of us need to exchange info with each other. It is just fun and we can exchange healthy banter, so I welcome you again to do so. The only reason I address you directly is cause it is the courteous way to speak. I don’t want to take potshots.

    No one asked for examples on the standard in low-pitch singing. In fact, I was speaking with a friend that there is no point discussing that as the conversation was about Rafi and Kishore. I have heard a lot of Saigal and I believe he is above comparisons for more than one reason.

    I don’t understand why there would be a problem posting links, but I respect whatever reason you might have. I don’t think we’d be able to sustain an email discussion until we are more respectful here. I hope in due course we do get to that point. The discussion should not get off-track, so I am posting herewith the unsubstantiated claims for which we requested examples. I am speaking sincerely here – … at your convenience, please answer the following.
    1) Examples of Kishore crooning in the lower notes that he is not comfortable in. You should also explain what you mean by crooning in the lower notes. You can atleast explain how a person can croon in the lower notes that they are not comfortable in.
    2) Examples of Rafi sustaining a low Pa.
    3) Spell out the notes in those songs as also what you think Rafi’s “2+” octave and Kishore’s “2-” octave absolute range was and substantiate it with examples
    4) The examples that Paramjeet ji is talking about.

    Side note:
    In my opinion, Kishore does comfortably hit more than a high “Ga”. I say this based upon my understanding and association with music – I have never heard anybody sing Kishore’s songs in his solid open flowing timber style. They can sing it in their style but that is besides the point. Singers get up on stage and sing a peppy Kishore number and people simply don’t realize what the singer did. People sell Kishore short. He simply made things sound easy. On top of that Kishore said things like “Mujhe Sa Re Ga… kuch nahi aata”. People misunderstand this and his association with the comedy genre and typecast him as a lesser singer. This is absolutely not the case. He was right up there in terms of technique, calibre, etc. and higher than all in terms of sheer talent. I heard on a show here called “Abhi To Mai Jawaan Hoon” that he played the harmonium very well. Can anybody confirm this?

    Paramjeet ji,
    Woh gaana mai phir se sununga youtube mein. Mujhe nahi lagta woh whistle register se tha. Shayad yeh keval mera khayal hai. Mujhe aisa ek kissa yaad hai jab bachpan mein mujhe kisine Kishore ke ek ajeeb high note ka udaharaN diya tha aur mai abhi recall nahi kar pa raha hoon. Mai auron se bhi poochta hoon.

    Aur sir, aapke point (4) ke baare mein mai uss doosre forum mein bhi logon se yehi keh raha tha ki Kishore head voice (falsetto) mein better the logon se aur woh bhi ek important skill hai. Ant mein jab maine examples diye to wahan ka ek accha sadasya maan gaya tha. Yahan par bhi agar aap sab sehmat hon to pehle hum modal register ki baat karenge, phir iss par bhi jayenge. Maine socha nahi tha forum mein phir se kissi se baat hogi, par accha lag raha hai. Iska shrey aapko, Arghya ji and Vithal ji ko jata hai.

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