An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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May 28th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
now i want to quote some recent news from times of india
“Kishore da lives on - in music, remixes
14 Oct, 2002 l 0302 hrs ISTlIANS
NEW DELHI: Fifteen years after he died, Kishore Kumar’s unparalleled yodelling in Bollywood films continues to inspire countless remixes.
” Zindagi ko bahut pyar humne diya, maut se bhi mohabbat nibhayenge hum ,” he had once sung. He is doing just that - with his enchanting songs that continue to hold the present generation spellbound as were his countless fans during his heyday from the 1950s till the 1980s.
What better evidence of this than the latest remix, “Kishore Da n the Daddy Mix”. It’s been a bestseller ever since its release earlier this year.
So what is it that continues to make a Kishore song tug at the heart? Is it the timbre of his voice? His versatility? Or the empathy that came through as he sang?
It is perhaps a combination of all three. ”
according to some legendry (explained in kk biography)
“Kishore Kumar’s was the second golden male voice that the film industry produced. , the first being that of Kundan Lal Sehgal. Besides being a singer”
what i am trying to explain is the popularity of this legendry in this arena of 21st century.
also if u r going again on notes and raga then u should always admit the fact that they(lata mohd. rafi and kk) are nothing compared to classical legendry like gangu bai hangal bhimsen joshi pandit jasraj etc….
so bollywood singing is totally based on popularity not on the raga and notes. ragas are just used to give song popularity.how many songs of bollywood are totally based on a true raga very few all are derived from them. if raga is only criteria then hip hop , rock ,jazz , lok sangit doesn’t exist.
even on raga and taal if u ask any expert manna was far ahead from these three legendry but not got the golden voice . so he was not best….
May 28th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
I also find it striking that you refer to KK’s style as “singing from the heart” against Rafi when indeed I feel it was Rafi who almost always sounded like he was singing a song from his heart and sometimes KK throated a song (maybe because his schedule was so busy)
>>> No singer has had a schedule more busy than Rafi and not one song was throated.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 28th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Manish seems to be a blind follower of Rafi, a bit too blind really:)
If Rafi was as popular as Kishore I must say he must have his grey cells examined:) One can say IMO so and so is best singer.. for a million reasons one can like someone or not like someone.
For these million reasons the majority of people in this world like Kishore more and thats why they buy more of Kishore.. Kishore sells more than Lata, Asha, Mukhesh and yes Rafi put together.. This goes to show that when the whole world is wrong it indeed is right:) offc ourse there will be the one odd man like manish who will be an exception and exceptions prove the rule !
Most people feel the best singer is Kishore (for reasons as personal to them as can be) and thats the favourite singer of the world.. Though Rafi did rule till 1969 kishore has ruled happily ever after!
May 28th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Manish,
I am really glad that despite being born after the farishta passed away, you are His fan. May the tribe keep expanding.
I want to make a couple of points, though. First, don’t focus too much on those Kishore-…. duets; while some of them are ok, most of them are the “Chal shuru ho jaa fata faat” kind. If someone thinks Kishore sang better in those duets, I don’t give a damn. But please do not ever compare Kishore with Him in songs like “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare”. I’ve heard Kishore sing this gem on stage and I’ve refrained from making any comments on it, because I know he did it in good faith and in the memory of his friend and idol. Lata has also sung this song in her Shraddhanjali series but I’ve decided not to listen to it. Amzad Ali Khan played this song recently in an FM channel as a demonstration of one of the best renditions of classical-based songs ever portrayed on screen. And I’d simply request you to leave songs like “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare” and “Man tadpat hari darshan” alone; these are highly spiritual songs and please do not attach any other singer’s name to these songs.
I have no problems if you compare your favourite singer’s rendition of “Chor sipahee” or “Salamat rahe dostana hamara” with Kishore’s. The competition should be fair — there should be a level playing field.
May 28th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Hi MAST MAST,
He sang a song in your name too: Jawaniyan yeh mast mast. He sang this song 50 years ago for Shammi Kapoor in Tumsa Nahin Dekha and I’m sure you’ll like this song even today.
May 28th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
Prashant, responding to point number 10, let me tell you that the comment is not absurd at all. Try a non-classical number like “Aaja aaja main hoon pyar tera” (some may say it’s based on raag pancham, though) and try to sing it in Kishore’s voice. Tell me if you could do it. RD could do it and that’s why he took upon the job himself in “Piya tu ab to aaja” and “Veera tara tara tara”; the only other male singer who could do it was …. (I am not using His name anymore, because, as Dron rightly pointed out, it invites the scorn of bigots). And, presuming you are a Hindu, listen to “Man tadpat hari darshan ko” (there’s a live version of the Aarohi program conducted by Naushad available on youtube). No Hindu saint would be able to have the effect that this singer had with two of the most important words in the Hindu lexicon: “Hari Om”. Why Kishore, you and I can also chant those two words; the question is will it have the desired effect? Of course, if you think Kishore’s Om Shanti Om is more divine, then there is no point arguing with you.
And don’t keep talking about classical singers being better in classical singing than Him; everyone knows that. But it is quite another thing to take raga-based songs, limited to a maximum of six minutes, to the masses; that’s what Naushad and He did with Baiju Bawra. Go to any village in Gujarat, UP or Bihar and even common people are aware of these songs. And, as Robin rightly pointed out, don’t keep saying that KK is more popular than …. His name is revered throughout the world and His appeal transcends regional, national, religious and ethnic boundaries.
You’ll have to also realise that we intruded into this site because His name and picture appeared in the article. We actually don’t have a feud with you guys; most of my fellow bhakts consider this to be an unnecessary distraction. The real battle is with someone else. Only time will heal the wounds we have suffered over the years, especially during the 1971-75 period, when the “matlabi” industry deserted the giant on whose shoulders it rode for 20 years and the way the hagiographers of the other singer (not your guru) are still trying to undermine Him.
May 28th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
There is no comparission between kk and rafi. Both were masters of their fields and also there was no silly competition between them both respected each other. I only said that if one is a jem and other is a diaomond.
May 28th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
There is no comparission between kk and rafi. Both were masters of their fields and also there was no silly competition between them both respected each other. I only said that if on is a jem and other is diaomond.
May 28th, 2007 at 8:52 am
Prashant: on point 3, Kumar Sanu was a great singer and I actually think he could hold his ground with three favorite songs of mine against any singer: “Tujhe Dekha” (suprise!), “Kisi Roz Tumse” (Pardes 1997) and “Yeh Kaali Kaali Ankhein” (Baazigar 1993). I’ve knowingly left out some other gems but these three are my favorite Sanu songs. It is unfair to call Sanu a COMPLETE subset of Kishore - he did eventually adapt into his own. I also think that another great singer could not OVERTAKE Sanu in those three songs.
Nevertheless, I think Rafi would have sung the songs of “1942 A Love Story” much much better than Kumar Sanu.
I also find it striking that you refer to KK’s style as “singing from the heart” against Rafi when indeed I feel it was Rafi who almost always sounded like he was singing a song from his heart and sometimes KK throated a song (maybe because his schedule was so busy).
BTW…my new favorite duet of Rafi&Kishore: “Chor Sipahee” 1977
Many times I see a duet of Rafi and Kishore and struggle to CLEARLY proclaim the better singer. Sure, Rafi wins more for me but the gap isn’t significant. This goes to show, at least for me, that I like Rafi a lot more because he was given better songs. Both did an excellent job for “Chor Sipahee” my new favorite, and my childhood favorite being Salamat Rahe Dostana.
Part of the reason I’m particuarly motivated in this thread is because I missed commenting on the debate for the article “SRK wants to make a movie about KK” and I felt some KK fans were saying some unjustified things.
May 28th, 2007 at 7:42 am
Here’s an excellent rendition of a Rafi song by Kishoreda. This song is GREAT in its own way, I don’t think the Rafi version overtakes this nor does the Kishore version overtake Rafi’s. Both are full of emotion and backed by great voices. Make sure you have real player:
http://songs.kishorekumar.org/03_MANARE_TU_KAHE_NA.ram
There are some that will pick one version over the other but IMO both are too good to really say. I wish Kishore had some more Rafi songs.
May 28th, 2007 at 2:11 am
Rafi onwards from 1979-82 created a huge blitskerg of melodies. If he had lived I am sure it would have continued.
The LP-Rafi combo was indeed great, many hits during that particular period as was the case from 1963 onwards. Rafi and RD was a big miss fter 1980 as P. Haldar had mentioned. One of Rafi’s best latter day composers was Rajesh Roshan, they had a lot of hits as well from 74-80.
May 28th, 2007 at 1:37 am
Prashant: Shant ho jao..
“some body in this discussion put an absurd comment that rafi can sing kk song but kk can’t . I want to ask either they got call of rafi from heaven.”
-Boss, for this we do not need rafi’s testimonial.
1. Kishore himself did not think he did justice to “Salaam-e-Ishq” (Muqaddar Ka Sikandar” and “Waada tera Waada” (Dushman). In these cases, the saviors were the actors. Both Amitabh and Rajesh’s voice needed Kishore. I personally think Kishore sang them well. But we don’t know if the Music directors wanted those the way they got.
2. Kishore had to shy away from Lata’s version of “mere Naina saawon bhadon”. His version does not have the haunting classical high pitch strains.
3. “Humen tumse pyar kitna” (Kudrat) had to be simplified for Kishore. To anyone who understands music the Parveen Sultana version was way better. Rafi never shied away from any version, however tough. Kalyanji once mentioned that Rafi was the only singer (not even Lata) where they did not have to think whether he can actually sing the song.
4. Nafrat Ki duniya (Haathi Mera Saathi) had to go Rafi’s way after 5 takes by Kishore. LP mentioned this number of times. In this case, even Rajesh’s presence could not save KK.
5. In Raagini, it is well known that SJ thought the songs were not “Kishore’s cup of tea”.
6. In “Pagey Ghungroo” (Namak Halal) the alaap had to be rendered by Ustaad Dilshad Khan. There was not a single song in rafi’s lifetime where alaap had to be rendered by someone because Rafi could not do it.
Just 10 points do not make you any more logical than the KK fans out here. I can provide 10 points for each of your 10 points.
Just a small clarification to KK fans: I love KK. I play KK in my car stereo. But extrapolating that to say he is the best singer of all time is ridiculous.
May 28th, 2007 at 1:36 am
I thought I might as well stay here since P. Haldar and Sudip have also stayed. I would like to comment on Prashant’s points:
Point 1: In regards to making a superstar, Rafi made much more actors than Kishore did, Kishore has a hand in the careers of Rajesh Khanna and Amitabh, but if you look at the list of Rafi there is Biswajeet, Joy Mukherjee, Sanjay Khan, Dharmendra, Dilip Kumar, Rajendra Kumar, and a whole host of others. You mention when KK stopped singing for Rishi Kapoor he became a flop, if you notice after Bobby KK took over after SS as Rishi’s voice and then post Laila majnu, Rafi became the voice or Rishi and that pair gave so many hits, so can you truly say after KK stopped singing, Rishi became a flop, I doubt it.
Point 2: LoL L-P replaced Rafi with Kishore is really hilarious. I am amused at where these facts are coming from. L-P’s number one singer was Rafi, they used Kishore to be partial.
Point 3: RD wanted to be different from the rest, which is why he needed a new voice and KK was perfect for his compositions. Rafi also suited his songs very well.
Point 4: Discussing clones in pointless, Kishore could never reach Rafi’s level of singing because he never had the same qualities or range that Rafi had. Rafi covered a vast spectrum and a variety of genres, something Kishore was never able to achieve.
Point 5: LoL again record stats is hilarious, Rafi sells more than any artist, and his songs are more in demand than Lata’s songs, a fact mentioned by Laxmikant before his death. Recently there was a poll mentioning that Rafi sells more than Michael Jackson does among the younger age group in India.
Point 6: To each his own, Lata and Rafi are much above comprisons with any singer, they are the benchmarks of their field, recognized by the majority of musicians in the industry as the two greatest singers the indian film industry has ever had.
Points 7, 8 & 9: All subjective points, based on no facts, so ofcourse again to each his own. Its nice to see a Kishore fan appreciate his talents as he was a great singer.
Point 10: A song is composed with a singer in mind so in that sense no singer can sing any other song by another singer, but referring to the comment made, in this case all it means is that Rafi had such a range that he could attempt with ease all types of songs that other singers sang. Whereas others cannot easily attempt Rafi songs because of the degree of difficulty associated with them.
I agree with Manish, Sholay would have been much better had Rafi been there, the fact is that the dialogue sold more than the music. Rafi is very popular among the younger crowd. The majority of MD’s used Rafi because he was the best in the business or else we would have seen history re-written differently.
May 28th, 2007 at 1:27 am
I see what you’re saying.
However, I too think popularity is a great indicator of greatness, so long as there isn’t some other factor that is distorts things beyond reason.
Clearly, the great Kishore Kumar, his songs, and the work of RDB were great entities and it is silly to even try to make an analogy with Playboy Magazine IMO. I do understand though that you were merely trying to explain a concept.
I do think Rafi is comparably popular to Kishore.
May 28th, 2007 at 12:22 am
Prshant is the latest addition to the number of KK fans who try to defend with the argument of popularity. Honestly, I think Rafi is more popular if you consider all over India and all age groups. I know of several KK fans who converted to Rafi once they started having grey hair..This hold good for Babul Supriyo, Shaan as well.. As they get more into Bollywood, they understand who is the king and they start singing Rafi songs..
Even then, we the Rafi fans would try to analysze with quality and not with quantity. If cheap popularity is a measure of art, then pornographic magazines are better than Tagore’s literary works..When the market invades art, it is the end of art.
Rafi could cater to both cheap popularity and the classical taste without resorting to any gimmick or gizmo..That makes him universal.
And who says that someone who has a good ear for classical music does not enjoy it from the heart?? Enjoyment has different forms, some are more esoteric. If ignorance is a virtue, then as I said playboy magazine is a better art form than Tagore.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:12 pm
Prashant:
On your first point, Amitabh’s strategy to overtake Rajesh Khanna was to steal Kishore Kumar. Amitabh Bachchan would not have risen in the ranks so quickly if it wasn’t for KK. He would be significantly reduced i.e. Amitabh wouldn’t be Amitabh without the voice of KK and the two matched either PERFECT - no one could replace KK for Amitabh - not even Rafi - despite giving him song great playback like in Dostana or Naseeb. Amitabh’s movie Mukadar Ka Sikandar - I enjoyed it only because of Kishore’s songs particuarly “O Saathi Re.” Kishore carried that movie else it was crap. Dostana was trite and predictable but the song of Rafi and Kishore made it a super hit.
Second point: I still feel that majority of the music directors had Rafi as first choice. In fact, I’ll expand on this and say that a great reason for why I prefer Rafi over Kishore is BECAUSE FOR ME, Rafi got better songs and more songs. My favorite MDs are SJ, LP, and KA. The favorite singers of SJ and LP was Rafi. If Kishore sang some of Rafi’s numbers - they’d be great songs in their own ways. A Kishore rendition IMO would unlikely overtake a Rafi rendition but it would be GREAT. For example, the song Tum Bin Jaon Kahan, I personally don’t clearly prefer one over the other - - each has advantage disadvantage (yodel vs crisp voice). Both versions are great. RDB and SDB are great composers but they are not my favorites. If Kishore had sang more numbers for SJ (my favorite) - the gap of liking between him and Rafi for me would decrease for me. The MDs, singers, and actors ALL needed each other. As pointed out before, death of Jaikishan in 1971 was a big blow to Rafi. Rafi sang ~5000 songs where KK sang ~3100 songs.
This makes me jump to your point 10: There are some songs of Rafi that Kishore could not sing. A KK fan commented that he didn’t care if KK did not sing “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale.” FAIR ENOUGH. There are some songs where KK does not have the a high enough vocal range (he’d sound strained trying to do “Ae Mohabbat Zindabad” from Mughal E Azam or even the simple song “Bura Mat Suno where there are moments Rafi has to go high pitch). Most KK fans will agree that Rafi had a wider vocal range and this immediately makes KK unable to render some Rafi numbers. Additionally, you cannot expect KK to do a qawali with proper alaaps or do classical numbers as well as Rafi when they REQUIRE classical training!
Third point: Bear in mind that Mohammed Rafi was supposed to sing the songs of Aradhana. Rafi could sing any song of RDB and do it just as well. HOWEVER they would still not have the same impact as KK because…the public became desensitized to Rafi after 20 years of dominance - they needed a break and a fresh voice IMO and KK provided that. They needed fresh kind of music and RDB provided. More importantly, KK was GREAT and different from Rafi and this served well with a BREAK from Rafi and could also appeal to a different audience. I think the song “Koi Haseena” and “Holi Ke Din” would have done much better under Rafi than Kishore and the soundtrack of Sholay wasn’t as popular. Nevertheless, the songs of RDB not suprisingly better suited KK. So while I conclude that KK was the right choice for KK, it wasn’t purely on sheer merit (as opposed to needing something fresh and different).
Point 4: That is PURELY opinion. My favorite singer is Udit Narayan. For me, Rafi songs were ETERNAL. This depends on the choices of the fan.
Point 5: I’d say KK is enjoying the recency effect. Coincidentally, I was born in 1985 and I know of Rafi because he did playback for Amitabh in 1980 movies. I became introduced to Rafi mostly from 3 songs: John Johny Janardan, Salamat Rahe Dostana, and Kaun Kisiko Band Sakega (Kaalia). Had Rafi not voiced for Amitabh, it may have been longer before I became acquainted with my favorite singer. KK, of course, was THE voice for Amitabh and since Amitabh is still active and people are ACTIVELY aware of his greatness - people are more ACTIVELY aware of KK and that is why KK is more popular among younger people. The real test will come 20 years from now. According to HMV record company, Rafi sells more. Do you have proof of your statement?
6. Maybe. I always liked Rafi over specialists in classical like Manna Dey because of his inhernetly superior, melodious voice. That is why I like the qawaalis of Rafi better than Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan mainly because of Rafi’s superior voice although Nusrat is of course more specialized and more famous for it. As for KK being better in playback - again that is only your opinion. I disagree.
7. Whole heartedly agree that KK could put emotion into the song. Definitely. However, Rafi was great in his own right and he TOO could put emotion into songs. As one small example (not to be generalized), in the song Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara - Rafi had more emotion for me. In fact, some will say that a handful of songs KK THROATED whereas with Rafi, majority of songs seemed to come from the heart. Classifying a song as “emotional” is clear but subjective nevertheless so it is crude to say but I’d wager Rafi has had more emotional numbers than KK as he sang almost twice the number of different songs as KK. I disagree with you.
8. Agreed.
9. I agree to that singing is art. In fact, I think RDB once said, when comparing KK and Rafi, that Rafi was technically perfect but KK did not follow the rules and found a way to enthrall audience RDB said Rafi was Ivan Lendl whereas KK was John McEnroe. Of course, RDB knows more about music than I but I do think Rafi could enthrall the audience with songs like “Yahoo!” or “Hum Kaale Hain To”. And I agree that KK belongs in the hearts of KK fans and that no one can replace him. He is great in his own way.
May 27th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
Prashant thanks dost. Finally we have someone here to write something decently from KK fans’ side
May 27th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
i don’t know why in the website dedicated to yoodleeeyoo such a worse discussion is going on kishore kumar and nobody is able to give fact about him.
let me put some point
1.kishore was a singer who when started singing for a actor then he become superstar and when he left hi he become flop
like in case of amitabh bachaan rajesh khanna, anil rishi and many more
2. if any body is discussing about the fact that he had not sang for many music directors then he shoud know that laxmikant pyarelal choose him to replace mohd. rafi
bappi lehri rajesh roshan and even anu mallik got rise from his singing.
he was a star creator nobody created him a star
3. it’s very easy to say that rd choose kishore that’s why kishore was famous. but if take in different side u will fnd no male voice song of rd could be fulfilled by other singer. kk was not his choice but its mandatory for him. as if he composed song for 1942 love story then again he used kishore school singer kumar sanu.
4. no doubt that mohd. rafi style of singing give good songs but kishore kumar style put a song to such a level that it become eternal
if you compare eternal hits give by only singer who use kk style then it is much more than rafi style of singer. like in case of abhijit and kumar sanu compared to sonu nigam and udit narayan.even new singer like babool kk and shaan used his style (style of heart)
5. on selling rafi’s fan has to accept the fact that they far behind kishore as every albums of old songs has 60-70% share of kk
6. if u go on classical then u shouldn’t compare them with lata and mohd. rafi as they are also tiny in comparison to gangubai hangal and bade gulam ali saab.
bollywood playback singing is for common mass and here no doubt kk was always greater than lata and rafi
7.also he could put more emotion in songs as he was a great actor
8.if u go on prize then u should know that gandhi never got nobel peace prize but it does not mean that he was not there. he was above any leader of his time.we kk fan consider him god and god never need bharat ratna.
if u rafi or lata fan have a prize for ever singer then u can give him
also remember one thing this the one aspect of this legendry
Debates can go on him for best actor, comedian, music composer and personality..
9. singing is not for analyzing that it is made of this raga or that taal but it’s for enjoying and in this aspect we kk fan can easily say that no body can beat him
10.some body in this discussion put an absurd comment that rafi can sing kk song but kk can’t . I want to ask either they got call of rafi from heaven.
Nobody can say this type of thing. First music director used to say that ur voice is not for singing kk but he proved
May 27th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Sudip, sorry for the typo; I meant 1975, not 1980. By 1980 Rafi’s confidence was back and his voice was getting closer and closer to that of his in the 60s. Thanks for providing the list of songs during the 79-80 period; I particularly like Tu is tarah zindagi mein shamil hain, Dard-e-dil dard-e-jigar, Maine poochha chand se and Simti hui ye ghadiyan. There is a Rafi-Lata duet in Kala Patthar, “Baahon mein teri…” where Rafi and Lata both sound very good (in this song Rafi’s voice approaches his 60’s voice). Kishore had a major hit in this Rajesh Roshan-composed film, “Ik rasta hai zindagi”. I also like Kishore’s songs in Yaraana, something you may disagree with. Again, the songs are sung in a slightly heavier and coarser voice, but I think he purposely did that considering that they were meant for Amitabh. There’s a song of Rafi’s from Poonam that was released after this death: “Mohabbat rang layegi”. I really like that song. Rafi also did a pretty good job singing for Dev Anand in Man Pasand, “Logon ka dil”, almost a decade after he sang for the actor in Gambler.
All in all, the 80s would have brought out the best in Kishore and Rafi, with LP, RD, RR and KA competing for the top spot. And among all the possible combinations, the one that I was looking forward to most was the RD-Rafi one, probably because of the range that both could provide and because of my own biases.
May 27th, 2007 at 8:34 am
P. Haldar wrote:”In a couple of Bengali songs from the mid 80’s, his voice definitely sounded quite rough (”hnere” in Bengali). But it would be fair to point out that Rafi’s voice in 1980 was also nowhere near what it used to be in the 60s, something that Rafi fans would be reluctant to admit.
As far as voice is concerned, a large number of people in the Marwari community of Kolkata used to prefer Mukesh to Rafi or Kishore”
–Mukesh is very popular in Gujarat. He has sung some very good bhajans in Gujarati. If you take a poll among Gujaratis, especially those of the 1960s generation, I won’t be surprised if he tips Rafi or Kishore in popularity.
I agree that Rafi in the 1980s (or rather 1980) was nowhere near the Rafi of the 60s, but the quality of songs had gone down as well. But in 1979-1980 the LP-Rafi combination was clearly way ahead of any other MD-singer combo in for the period. Some of my Rafi favorites during 1979-1980:
1. Hum to chale pardes (Sargam,LP)
2. Aab yeh jaana ke (Ladies Tailor, LP)–>here the vocal quality was comparable to the 60s
3. Aashaon ki sawan mein (Aasha, LP)
4. Chalo re doli (Jaani Dushman, LP)
5. Kaali ghata chhayi (Kaali ghata, LP)
6. Jaanewalon ka gham (Kaali Ghata,LP)
7. Tu is tarah zindagi mein (Aap to Aise na the, Usha Khanna)
8. Simti si yeh ghadiyan (Chambal Ki Kasam, Khaiyyam)–>again comparable to 1960s
9. Tere siva na kisika banooga (Professor Pyarelal, Kalyanji Anandji)
10. Dard-e-dil (Karz, LP)
11. Maine poocha chand se (Abdullah, RD)
12. O meri chorni (Kaatilon ki kaatil, Kalyanji Anandji)–>peppy number a glaring proof that age permitting, Rafi would have ruled even in late 80s with amir Khan like heroes.
13. Arey sambhalo mere yaaron (Khuda Kasam, LP)
14. Yeh aapne kya kar diya (Khuda Kasam, LP)
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See I have left out the popular numbers of Dostana, Shaan, Naseeb….Add those and you will get the dominant singer of 1979-80 by miles.
May 26th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
Singer123, I don’t think we should read too much into this “Rafi playbacked for Kishore” thing. Kishore’s fans also keep unnecessarily repeating that Kishore was too busy acting so he didn’t have time to sing. Come on, a talent like Kishore would have definitely liked to sing his own songs. There are two factors at play here. First and foremost, Kishore genuinely adored Rafi; I wouldn’t have been surprised if Kishore gave Rafi the chance to playback for him some of his own compositions in the 80s were Rafi alive then. There was a great deal of camraderie among the male singers in that generation. Second, if you consider a film like Raagini, where Rafi playbacked for Kishore, the MD was O. P. Nayyar, who once famously remarked, “Without Rafi there would be no OP”. On top of that, the song “Man more bawra” was semi-classical in nature; other than RD or Bappi, most MDs would prefer Rafi for such songs.
Kishore’s ultimate ambition was to make SD sing under his baton, which remained unfulfilled! Rafi, of course, sang Kishore’s composition for a rupee.
May 26th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Sudip, I did include “Yahan main ajnabi hoon” from JJPK (No. 4). I had to leave out quite a few good songs and I agree that “Humdum mere maan bhi jao” would have better demonstrated his range. Select any year in the 60s and you’ll have a problem in identifying the top 20, such was his output those days. You mentioned 1968-69 as being your favourite years. Chirag came out in 1969 and Rafi had two beautiful solos (Teri aankhon ke siva and Chirag dil ko jalawo); the first one was also sung by Lata for her favourite composer, but Rafi’s is the one that is better (my opinion) and much more popular (fact).
Instead of 1969, you could also try the beginning of that decade. In 1960, here are some films that had Rafi’s gems: Kohinoor, Chaudvin ka Chaand, Kala Bazaar, Lal Quila, Barsat ki Raat, Kalpana, Mughal-e-Azam and Bambai ka Babu. Kala Bazaar is known for “Khoya khoya chaand” but listen to “Apni to har aah ik toofan hai”. In Chaudvin ka Chaand, other than the title song, listen to “Mili khak me mohabbat”. Among the many wonderful duets Manna and Rafi sang together, a personal favourite of mine is “Tu hai mera prem devata” from Kalpana. And probably the two ghazals in Lal Quila (Na kisiki aankh ka noor hoon and Lagta nahi hai dil mera) ended Talat’s dominance in that genre.
As I’ve said before, there is a fair amount of subjectivity in selecting your favourite voice. This, to a large extent, depends on your personal likes and dislikes. Among Bengalis, if you include both Hindi and Bengali songs, the favourite male voice is one of the following: Manna, Kishore, Hemanta or Rafi. Some in the older generation still swear by Pankaj Mullick and Debabrata Biswas. But if you restrict yourself to only Hindi songs, it will be either Kishore or Rafi, with the younger generation probably preferring Kishore and the older generation Rafi. Manish made a very interesting observation about the younger generation being much more aware of the Amitabh Bachchan songs than the Dilip Kumar songs. This is called the recency effect and Kishore has a big advantage here. The real test would be 25 years from now when Lata, Asha and (less so) Kishore wouldn’t have such an advantage over Rafi. In my mind, I know which two would be fighting for the title of the “best singer” but I don’t want to start another nasty debate.
I personally feel that Kishore’s voice was terrific during the 1965-76 perod. There were always some rough hues but I think that made the voice more attractive. I have no problems in conceding that he was the king during the 1971-75 period. In the 80s, he may have lost some of the innate sweetness and crispness he had in his voice, but given the quality of the competition then, he could easily rule the charts. In a couple of Bengali songs from the mid 80’s, his voice definitely sounded quite rough (”hnere” in Bengali). But it would be fair to point out that Rafi’s voice in 1980 was also nowhere near what it used to be in the 60s, something that Rafi fans would be reluctant to admit.
As far as voice is concerned, a large number of people in the Marwari community of Kolkata used to prefer Mukesh to Rafi or Kishore. I personally like the voices of all the great singers, but in terms of male voice, my No. 1 favourite has always been Rafi and female voice it has been Geeta. As a singer, Lata may be much greater than Geeta, but in terms of voice alone, she is my favourite. To each one his own!
May 26th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Very good observations, Manish, Sudip and Halder.
May 26th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Sorry Sir, I do not agree with you, not even with a single point.
>> You dont have to be sorry for that!!!
If you see the comment section, there are more Rafi fans here arguing.. We have only one or two .. Debjyot and Bandita refuting and dragging Rafi sahab in comparison, which I too abhor.
>> They are not arguing but taking their important time out by rationally presenting facts although they are not obliged to do it.
>>>Nice to know you abhor these miserable people. I too abhor those few Rafi fans who speak nonsese about KK and others.
I am a KK fan too (btw it is a Ms not Mr ) but I like Rafi sahab songs too and I give credit to both of them for what they have given me by way of lovely songs that I still relish even after they have left us and gone.
>> Fair thinking.
To me facts and figures do not matter, coz ultimately I am here to listen and enjoy their songs and not sit and compare and make an analysis. That is sheer waste of time hahahaha
>> Yes but everyone is not like you.
Life is too short to fight over these trivial issues This is my humble opinion. You may disagree but I have a right to my opinion.
>>> I will not diasgree simply because you disagreed to my post which I still stand for as I have seen over the years about the pathetic attititude of so called KK fans.
May 26th, 2007 at 10:38 am
Kishore Kumar’s popularity remains intact today because he was indeed a GREAT SINGER who changed the course of India Cinema and Music but what makes him EXTRA popular to this day: he was the voice of Amitabh Bachchan.
Amitabh Bachchan is still an active actor maintaining a busy schedule and therefore people still keep him in mind in the present rather than the relatively passive past. As a result of this, they are better AWARE of his greatness and of his past works - and of course, what is tied to Amitabh Bachchan’s greatness is the AMAZING VOICE of Kishore Kumar.
Yes, people know Dilip Kumar or Dharmendra were great actors, but they know it “passively” since these guys are out of the present radar. The voices of these guys was of course, the one and only Mohammed Rafi. Rafi does not get that Amitabh Bachchan benefit that Kishore has. P Haldar was keen to point out that Rafi remained on top in the late 1970s despite Kishore having the advantage that his HEAVY voice better suited the reigning superstar of that time. Nevertheless, Rafi proved to have greater versatility as a playback singer because his voice was just right. Not too deep, not too low and very clean and as a result of this he did seamless playback for dozens of actors. Kishore’s specific deep voice did not suit as many actors.
As a Rafi fan, I liked his rendition of Zindagi Ek Safar better: he displayed better tonal quality i.e. his voice was fuller. In Tum Bin Jaon Kahan, Rafi’s voice was more crisp whereas Kishore’s rendition had a relatively BLUNT and COARSE voice. The operative word here is RENDITION because Kishore could have made his voice more crisp had he wanted in my opinion, as he has demonstrated that ability in other songs like Padosan. At the same time, this goes both ways because the only reason Kishore’s version was more popular was because of the yodelling - Rafi could have yodelled just as well as Kishore if he wanted (but it was looked down upon for a trained singer to do so) - don’t underestimate Rafi’s amazing vocals.