An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
© Copyrighted to Yoodleeyoo.com All Rights Reserved.
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:23 am
@Anil: First, of all the things, that post did not require a reply from you. Read the entire context for which it was written. It has been strictly written coz of the lameness of some fans. However, that you have addressed it, I will answer a few of your points.
“But I assume that you think Rafi is just one of the many great singers the HFM have seen (from Saigal to Kishore) with no distinct edge (over any of the other greats).”
A little rework on your words is what I did earlier. Many of the moronic fans have been projecting it this way: “There may be legends, but none of them have any edge whatsoever over Rafi”. If such is the attitude, its a dis-service to the other legends. Now that this is the attitude they want to display, I have no hesitation to SHOW where the other legends have really scored over Rafi. Its unfortunate, but I did that in the last post. I have no intention of putting one legend over other, but if this is the style they understand, they will certainly get it this way.
“Am I right with my assumption? If that’s the case, I suggest you spend some time with your guruji and probe him about Rafi; may be he can help you out.”
Please work on the assumptions of some Rafi fans. Firstly, I don’t need to sit with him at all. Professionally, “comparison” is what exactly my job is. Yes, yesterday only (21st Feb, 2010) I met him and have myself gifted him Rafi’s collection of 20 telugu songs. It was a great moment for me and the Bangalore team of SPB fans. And let me reveal a few things about SPB-Rafi fan-guru relationship. SPB has named his own studio after his mentor “S.P. Koodandapani”. Enter the studio and the largest photo on display is not of S.P. Koodandapani, but its of Rafi. And without sounding arrogant, let me also say that I have heard Rafi more than SPB himself. Musically I am a layman, but I do know more about Rafi to ask anything about Rafi to SPB or Rafi’s family. Its not correct to tell me to find about Rafi. As this is coming from you Anil, I am not offended.
“Your comments on Rafi-fanatics, we will take up later; but for now let me note down something about Yesu Das, a singer I’ve been listening to for over 30 years and who I absolutely adore. I suppose you wanted to prove (with the link that?s not opening for me) that there are songs that are technically (or let’s say classically) more complex than others to execute and that someone who can sing them well is the better singer. This theory is not entirely baseless but the danger in stretching it is that we will reach wrong conclusions more often that not.”
Its not that such singer is better overall singer. But there are genres where if your favorite singer is not better than others, then suddenly don’t change the criteria to “overall” and say that my fav is better than rest. Instead of admitting that yes, in this genre my fav singer is not best in this genre, why change the criteria itself. Overall, I am not proving anything. I am just exposing hypocrisy of certain people.
Btw, I don’t see you taking up the matter of shamenatics later either. There is very little, but not really much.
“For instance, let’s have to say that Kishore (with very little ‘on your face’ classical scores in his disography) or SPB (despite a ‘Shankarabharanam’) are no great shakes as singers per se. ”
If you have not listened Kishore Kumars classical songs in the Rabindranath sangeeth, its not anybodys problem. Subjectively, you may say they are no great shakes, but there is hardly anything which they have not achieved. Btw, Kishore (and SPB) scored better music than Rafi. Like it or not, but face it.
I really don’t like the way you have written this though. Mark this in your records: “Not even thousand devotional songs of Rafi come anywhere closer to what SPB has done in Sivasthuthi.” SPB’s Sivasthuthi, Ghantsaala’s “Bhagvadgeetha” have been unmatched till date. Each year, for the past 20-25 years, at least 5 new versions of Sivasthuthi by various artists are released (sometimes including SPB himself) to match SPB’s first version. None have matched the same till date. Show me one Rafi work which comes any closer to this. So whats the point of saying Kishore and SPB are no great shakes is really beyond me.
Like you say “SPB (despite a ‘Shankarabharanam’)”, is it not also true Rafi (minus Baiju Bawra) has not great reportoire of classical songs? Why don’t we see this being admitted by Rafi fans then?
“Yesu Das, with his substantial classical base can (and does) sing heavy classical stuff as well as songs that requires fine-tuned musical grasp (acquired off course through training) better than Rafi or any other film singer in India. But does that make him better? Speaking of that Ravindra Jain song (which I suppose you linked in your post), the MD went to Rafi first (but not Kishore), right? Does that tell you something? Again, for a Shammi Kapoor-ish song in Tamil, the MDs go for SPB (and not Yesu Das); does that also tell you something?”
The same Ravindra Jain gave wholesale all semi- and classical songs in HINDI to Yesudas and others, and not one single song to Rafi himself. What does that say? Certainly, during that era Ravindra Jain found Rafi not fit for classical or semi classical songs. Even SPB does get semi-classical songs at 65, but Rafi was not getting at 45+. Draw the conclusions what ever way you want to. The thing is that all of this does not point to anything, but if you want to use them to see something the way you want, we can also point infinite ways which you would not like to see.
“As for your ‘legends’, no one is disputing they are not so and no sane Rafi lover faces off Rafi with them. The comparison usually arises from the other side.”
Please, please, and please one more and final time. See who raised the Saigal comparison.
“I don’t think I have ever seen any article (by Rafi fans) titled ?Rafi- the greatest classical singer? or ‘Rafi- a greater singer than Bhimsen Joshi’.”
I think you refuse to read who raised here the comparison and declared in no equal terms that Saigal was good only because he had no competition, and Rafi is leaps and bounds above Saigal and all blah, blah, blah. Normally, I don’t get into silly posts, not even SPB was literally blasted here. But that does not mean we will just “SHUT UP” if fans treat Saigal and other legends as dirt.
“‘Yesu Das can’t be bracketed with the legends’, true but then the legends can?t be bracketed with Yesu Das either.”
And thats exactly the stand we have generally. Why is it impossible for most of you to realise that the same is true about Rafi either.
“One famous classical singer (I can’t recall who) has already answered it for me. He said something like the classical musicians are great in their own way. But Yesu Das has been blessed with something they don’t have- a voice that attracts people? and this applies to Rafi as well.”
Does not this tell us that in certain genres, be it Yesudas or Rafi or anybody, are not the best.
“As for your post-69 HFM scenario, I really don?t want to answer you here, but will only ask you to look at what happened to the Malayalam film music industry around mid- ?80s, when the singer M G Sreekumar emerged and the superb singer Jayachandran got sidelined. However you can check with any musically literate Mallu and they will tell you where MG Sreekumar stands (as a singer) compared to Jayachandran.”
I take your words for guranteed as I do trust you. But the whole point is music, like sports, is not all conquerable by one single individual. At least you accept that Jayachandran (earlier Rafi) got sidelined. Whereas, many fans dispute this basic fact. Btw, I have listened Jayachandran’s “Chanda Chanda” song in kannada which was simply superb.
Also, just as you rightly say the 69+KK songs are not in the same league as 50-60’s Rafi song, its also true that this decline is nothing in comparison with decline of quality of the late 70’s Rafis return songs vis-a-vis the 69+’s KK songs quality. Its very convineint to say about the 69’s quality, and easy to hide the almost mediocre late 70’s Rafi songs.
“As for your comments about Rafi’s forrays into South film music, let me inform you that Kishore sang one Malayalam song but couldn’t displace Yesudas/ Jayachandran and SPB sang many songs in Malayalam but never became a force to reckon with. I don’t think I need to say anything more on this. ”
Yes, just like Kishore failed, SPB failed, its also true about Rafi. We are not arguing about all this.
To sum it up, Rafi became famous after singing songs of “Baiju Bawra”, and Rafi fans (of course some of them) want us to believe that Rafi is Tansen. That is, no other singer should be even allowed to ever sing, and all.
@All Kishore Fans: I am really sorry that I could not ask SPB yesterday about his experience with Kishore Kumar for that Sagar song. However, I have not forgotten either about my promise. I will get an answer from him at the earliest.
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:22 am
I am posting few of P.B. Srinivas kannada songs. I certainly love each of them, and I am sure you all will love. Of course, lets just enjoy him when we can.
PBS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApMpjb3WMWE
Nee bandu ninthaga
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOGBc4cN6l8
Adisu Nodu
Bangarada Manushya - Nagunagutha nalinali
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqUWoTKZl-Y
Gandhada Gudi - Naava aadava Kannada nudi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI_DwjxuS1s
Binkada Singaari
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gGXCzIGGQg
@Dhani Ramji:
I won’t answer each of your points comprehensively. Lets see how things unfold.
* melody of voice
I just don’t understand why most Rafi fans just don’t admit that the melody of Rafi in the 70’s was really a poor shadow of his as compared with the Rafi of 50’s. So what does that tell us? Will you negate this attribute if a singer is melodious in one stage of his life if it deterioates in the some other stage of his life? Further will you honestly admit if I show a “LIST” of singers whose melody voice remained unchanged from their 20’s to 70’s. Lets not forget, Rafi was just in his 50’s when we saw the deterioration.
* grip over music
This is something which a singer can neither be credited nor be discredited, unless the singer also happens to be the composer of the song. Rafi having not been a composer, this measure does not just SUM up.
* modulation of voice
Ok. If quantitively a “LIST” of singers is provided who had more variety in modulation, you should accept the Rafi is indeed beaten in this criteria.
* pronunciation of words
Yes, Rafi must be credited here. In telugu and kannada he has indeed given 200% to get the pronounciation right. However, due to accent/dialect, some pronunciation were certainly wrong. But thats not to belittle Rafi. Lets face it. Rafi and Kishore both achieved very very less in foreign (or their own most difficult language) as comparison with a “few” other singers. So its a FACT that when it comes to “Overall” pronunciation, Rafi has been BEATEN. You may like it or not, but you can’t change the fact.
* communication of emotion
Yes, Rafi is as great at this criteria as anybody. Seriously, there are a dozen other singers who come closer (if not surpass) in this criteria.
* ability to sing songs of different types
If I put the 4 criterias above, its more or less the same. No need to go in more details. Moreover, this criteria is like a “Top-up”. The service network is more important than a certain “add-on” criteria. Also, this criteria is BIASED to specialised singers.
* acceptance by listeners of different generations etc.
I disagree with you here. Seriously, after a few generations no body may listen to gazals or classical hindustani/karnatic songs. Nevertheless, it won’t those legends any lesser. Further, pre-Saigal or around that time the recording facilities were so limited that we may never know their “TRUE VOICE”.
“So, I am quitting the discussion, as it is no longer possible to carry it on. ”
Its really getting difficult by the passing day to tolerate morons like “RafiBhakt”.
Finally, to sum it up all, different metrics will lead to different conclusions. But each (honest) metric will put all these legends in the same range of 9.5-10, with one leading some advantage to one legend over other. Whats the point in saying that Rafi is greatest according to this metric or that metric?
Penultimately, quantitavely, Rafi DOES trail behind at least two male singers in terms of achievements, awards and variety. Accept it or leave it, we all know the TRUTH.
P.S: I never thought I would NEVER be writing some of the above contents. Its ok, no hard feelings. and it was also NECESSARY.
@Paramjeet: Nice to know about your changed opinion about me
@Raj: Henceforth look for Balarykar and not Prabhanjan
@Arghya: “The biggest mistake a man can commit in his life is to comment on something without knowing or understanding it..” Hello! In which era are you living? You are committing the blasphemy of calling blunders as just mistakes. You will never ever be forgiven for this mistake, errrrr, blunder
February 21st, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Balarykar & kishore fan
It is true that after 69 kishore had become popular, but still the same is no where near rafi’s popularity of 50’s and 60’s. Kishore’s rise was only a matter of change which was desired by people as kumar sanu achieved fame after kishore kumar, but both of them in any way are no where close to rafi in any way.
Next, there is no question of rafi overtaking ghantasala in telugu, in any way as rafi was not a telugu singer and it is obvious that in telugu, ghantasala was a monopoly always. I am talking of rafi only in hindi field and not about his telugu or kannada songs (which I have literally no knowledge more so about p b sreenivas, which you mentioned, hence i will not say anything about kannada songs)
February 19th, 2010 at 7:44 pm
Kishorefan-ji,
Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh, the doyen of Hindustani classical music, was of the view that Rafi was the greatest exponent of semi-classical music. I mentioned it with specific reference to him. If he himself created his own gharana, I think he is more qualified than many out there, as well as all of us here, to make such remarks, and in no way is his statement indirectly (or directly) hitting at other classical greats.
You seem to have a habit of bringing up past posts and discussions. May I ask why ?. I ofcourse have nothing against you, but we have been through this road before (in the past), and its funny you would choose to drive down the road again.
February 19th, 2010 at 4:54 pm
Balarykar,
I am not too sure about what exactly you wanted to prove with your latest post. But I assume that you think Rafi is just one of the many great singers the HFM have seen (from Saigal to Kishore) with no distinct edge (over any of the other greats). Am I right with my assumption? If that’s the case, I suggest you spend some time with your guruji and probe him about Rafi; may be he can help you out.
Your comments on Rafi-fanatics, we will take up later; but for now let me note down something about Yesu Das, a singer I’ve been listening to for over 30 years and who I absolutely adore. I suppose you wanted to prove (with the link that’s not opening for me) that there are songs that are technically (or let’s say classically) more complex than others to execute and that someone who can sing them well is the better singer. This theory is not entirely baseless but the danger in stretching it is that we will reach wrong conclusions more often that not. For instance, let’s have to say that Kishore (with very little ‘on your face’ classical scores in his disography) or SPB (despite a ‘Shankarabharanam’) are no great shakes as singers per se. Yesu Das, with his substantial classical base can (and does) sing heavy classical stuff as well as songs that requires fine-tuned musical grasp (acquired off course through training) better than Rafi or any other film singer in India. But does that make him better? Speaking of that Ravindra Jain song (which I suppose you linked in your post), the MD went to Rafi first (but not Kishore), right? Does that tell you something? Again, for a Shammi Kapoor-ish song in Tamil, the MDs go for SPB (and not Yesu Das); does that also tell you something?
As for your ‘legends’, no one is disputing they are not so and no sane Rafi lover faces off Rafi with them. The comparison usually arises from the other side. I mean when a Rafi fan states Rafi was quite good at classical songs, someone from the other side comes in with Pandit Joshi or BMK. I don’t think I have ever seen any article (by Rafi fans) titled ‘Rafi- the greatest classical singer’ or ‘Rafi- a greater singer than Bhimsen Joshi’.
‘Yesu Das can’t be bracketed with the legends’, true but then the legends can’t be bracketed with Yesu Das either. One famous classical singer (I can’t recall who) has already answered it for me. He said something like ‘the classical musicians are great in their own way. But Yesu Das has been blessed with something they don’t have- a voice that attracts people’ and this applies to Rafi as well.
As for your post-69 HFM scenario, I really don’t want to answer you here, but will only ask you to look at what happened to the Malayalam film music industry around mid- ’80s, when the singer M G Sreekumar emerged and the superb singer Jayachandran got sidelined. However you can check with any musically literate Mallu and they will tell you where MG Sreekumar stands (as a singer) compared to Jayachandran.
As for your comments about Rafi’s forrays into South film music, let me inform you that Kishore sang one Malayalam song but couldn’t displace Yesudas/ Jayachandran and SPB sang many songs in Malayalam but never became a force to reckon with. I don’t think I need to say anything more on this.
February 19th, 2010 at 3:51 pm
dhani ram,
Mere baare mein kuchh bolne ya nautanki karne se pehle khud ka post padh lo kitni behuda baatein kari thi saigal ke upar. Aur ab pressure mein aake idhar udhar ki baat kar rahe ho..
Mere prashna abhi bhi wohi hai:
1. Saigal ka range poor kaise hai? Kya saigal ke lagaye hue saare noted Rafi ne hit kiye hai? Sochke boliye.
2. Woh great singer kaise nahi hai?
3. Kaise unki awaaz mein modulation ki kami thi?
4. Agar unhone 1-2 words galat bhi pronounce kiye hai to kya kisi aur ne nahi kari yeh mistake?
5. Aapne Saigal kitna suna hai? Kyunki mere prashna ka aap ne galat uttar diya hai. ‘diya jalaao’ mein udara saptak gandharv tak nahi hai , ‘pancham’ tak hi hai. Aur suniye Saigal ko, yeh prashna ka jawab hum baad mein zaroor denge aap ko. Yeh gaana youtube mein mat dhundiye, nahi milega
6. Kyun sirf 200 gaane gaake aaj bhi sab Saigal ko adarsh maante hai? main shastriya sangeetkaron ki baat kar raha hoon, rafi dot com walon ki nahi..
Ab theek hai Dhani Ram ji? Ek dum musical discussion? Aaiye ab akhade mein, hum bhi to dekhe Rafi bhakton ko itne gyan kahan se ho gaye jo bade bade sangeetkaton ko ‘great’, ‘not so great’ adi ityadi alankar se sajjit kar rahe hai.
February 19th, 2010 at 2:44 pm
Raj or Arghya bhai,
MYK ji ne to bol hi diya tha ki “rafi is greatest exponent of classical singing”
indirectly hitting at Bhimsen joshi ji and other pandits. Yeh bhi ho gaya hai.
Chalo sach kaha raj ji, galti to hamari hai jo ki hum speech dene lag gaye aadmiyon ko jo thik se samajh yah sun yah padh nahi sakte.
Bhakt ji - rafi ji ka
Accha, jara aap Balarykar (prabhanjan) ji ka post ka reply to de dijiye.
kishorefan
February 19th, 2010 at 12:43 pm
“My arguments were very clear:
In a discussion where a general assessment and comparison is being done, you cannot go by your personal likes and dislikes. One has to judge by a few widely accepted parameters. You must take into account all the songs sung by both singers and assess these songs on certain accepted criteria, such as
* melody of voice
* grip over music
* modulation of voice
* pronunciation of words
* communication of emotion
* ability to sing songs of different types, and
* acceptance by listeners of different generations etc. etc.
This is not a forum where one should impose one’s personal likes and dislikes by using harsh words. I feel sad that Shri Paramjeet’s remark has sunk to a level where discussion becomes impossible and exchange of bad words starts.
So, I am quitting the discussion, as it is no longer possible to carry it on.
Before quitting, however, I wish to appeal to all members of the forum to maintain decorum. I again wish to emphasise that having a liking for something is different from arriving at an accepted assessment through generally accepted criteria. All of us have our likes and dislikes for girls. But the judges in a beauty contest do not go by their own likes and dislikes. They go by a widely accepted criteria, such as the height, the waistline, the contours of the figure — even the ability to tackle an uncomfortable question. In the same way, when we assess a singer, we must go by a set of widely accepted criteria, some of which I have mentioned above. When I said that Saighal does not have Rafi’s range, I was not unaware of the shift from one scale to another in a song like “Diyaa jalaao”. When you compare the range of two singers, you do not go by one or two or three songs. Doing so will be like giving a writer the Nobel prize for writing a single short story.
February 19th, 2010 at 11:17 am
Balyrkar Prabhanjanji,
Zabardast reply!! Aap ka diya hua yeh naya taaj yeh pagal zaroor apne sir pe pehenke ghumenge.. Waise ek baat ke liye maafi chahunga.. Kuchh mahine pehle mera vichaar aap ke baare mein kuchh aur hi tha magar ab yahan pe aap ki lekh dekh ke main yeh vinamrata se kehta hoon ki aesa sangeetpremi maine bahut kam dekhe hai.. Aap, arghyaji, satyansh bhai yeh sab bahut hi sache dil ke sangeet premi hai. Aur apne Kishorefan aur Raj bhai ko to kya bolun. Inke hote hue yahan pe atankvadiyon ka parkop seemit rahega.. Lage raho, sirji!
Waise bhailog, yeh Rafi bhakt apna mansik santulan kho baitha hai aur idhar udhar bhaunkta fir raha hai bhatakti atma ki tarah aur logon ko uttejit kar raha hai galat tariqe se…
Isko yahan se krupaya bhagao to hum shantipurvak sangeet charcha punah-prarambha karein…
February 19th, 2010 at 11:01 am
Rafibhakt,
If Kishore would have slapped me for telling this , then he would have slaughtered you for talking nonsense about his guru-Kundan LAL SAIGAL.
FIRST, LEARN SOME DECENCY AND THEN YOU CAN HEART THE TRUTH!
100% Rafi songs are hit!
Hahahahaha.. What a joke!!
February 19th, 2010 at 10:26 am
Satish ranjan, sardarpura,
If rafi’s songs are 80% flop, then the ratio of The flop songs of 90% applies to kishore, Still rafi leads by 10%
Rafi’s are 100% hit songs - the greatest ever in hindi cinema. No hindi singer can ever come close to rafi. Kishore coming close -ha ha ha - a big joke and not even in dream.
Where is padmashri awardee rafi and where is kishore ? Do you know what you are talking? Kishore would have given you a straight slap, had he heard you talking like this.
February 19th, 2010 at 10:13 am
I agree with Rafibhakt’s comment on post no. 1677 saying ‘ if Gata rahe mera dil or mere sapno ki rani would have rendered by Rafi, they would have been altogether different’..
yes, Rafibhakt they would have been different.
THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN SUPERFLOPS JUST LIKE 80% RAFI SONGS AND NOT SUPERHITS!! That is the difference!!
Rafi was a singer who needed good music, good lyrics and comfortable working to deliver hits. He sang 1500 songs in 60s and people hardly remember only 150 odd of them. 70s, the less we talk, the better. He sang around 600 odd Hindi film songs, and not even 60 qualified to be memorable. Singing 5000 songs, if people find it difficult to recall even 500 songs, what is the use? Look at Kishore, he sang selectively 3500 songs in his career, and the number of memorable and hit songs of him are much more than Rafi.
In terms of appeal and popularity, Kishore in national level and perhaps SPB in south, remain unsurpassed even today. They were two singers who could make mediocre compositions into superhit chartbusters.
February 18th, 2010 at 9:54 am
Again intruders are making merry here.
Arghya, Paramjeet, Satyansh & my other friends - bhaiyon,
Galti to aap sabki hai, jo ki aap jaise true sangeet premi log bhashan de rahe hai ki un aadmiyon ko jo ki man se behre ho (deaf from mind and cannot hear the nice words which you say)
Galti to aap sab logo ki hai jo ki aap jaise true sangeet premi un aadmiyon ko aapke sundar posts padne ke liye keh rahe ho, jo ki man se andhe bhi hai (who cannot see through mind) aur jo ki aap sab logo ke sundar baat thik tarah se na hi pad sakte hai or na hi samajh sakte hai.
oh……… kisko bol diya, Saigal ji ko - father of hindi film music.
Yeh dhaniram bhai ne pehle ek bar father of southern film music ghantasala ko bhi kuch bol diya tha.
Paramjeet bhai and jaise kaha, kishore ko bhi kuch bol diya tha.
Jaise arghya ji bolte hai ab bache rahe, pandit bhimsen joshi ji jo ki bharat ratna awardee hai,
Vitthal ji, prabhanjan ji, - kyon gayab ho gaye aap log. Sundar gane sunvate rahiyega anek kalakaron ki.
Biased Rafi lovers,
VITTHAL JI, PARAMJEETJI, ARGHYA JI, MYSELF AND OTHERS HERE ALL ARE RAFI LOVERS AS WELL FOR YOUR INFORMATION BUT IT IS BETTER IF YOU LEARN HOW THESE RAFI LOVERS MAKE DISCUSSIONS IN THIS SITE, THUS, MAINTAINING THE DIGNITY OF THE SITE. THIS IS NOT TRUE VOICE COL. OF MOHD RAFI.COM - SO THAT WHATEVER YOU SAY WILL BE TOLERATED. MAY PLEASE BE NOTED.
February 17th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
Post 1683
The biggest mistake a man can commit in his life is to comment on something without knowing or understanding it..
February 17th, 2010 at 3:03 pm
Its really shameful that even Saigal is not spared. Now if Rafi-shamenatics believe so strongly believe Rafi is immortal, untouchable, matchless, and all blah-blah, they just need to peek at the year 1969 and later. And yes, even the so-called return in late 70’s is not really overwhelming as they would like the world to believe.
Further, if there was really that immortalily, untouchability, unmatchability, and all blah-ability, surely then explain why Rafi could not break the Ghantasaala monopoly after he sang those few songs in telugu? Similarly, Rafi had sung few songs in Kannada too, around the year 1967. Why P.B. Sreenivas thrived even after that?
Seriously, Rafi-shamenatics need to draw the line. It was ok if they post these crap in Rafi forum (the only reason being that then only Rafi-bhakts [not the one who posts here, lol] would be annoyed). Yes, try to get the song “shadaj ne paaya ye vardan”. Related link is this http://podcast.hindyugm.com/2008/11/shadaj-ne-paayo-rare-yesudas-song.html. And NO, Rafi comes nowhere close to singing this classical song, though its hindi. So stop over projections.
Interestingly, as many point out here, comparisons with LEGENDS like Bhimsen Joshi, Balamuralikrishna, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan, et al are also not left by the SHAMENATICS. Despite the greatness, Yesudas too has limitations and can’t be bracketed with these LEGENDS. Of course, one shamenatic did not agree with me but that does not matter
P.S and disclaimer: The word “shamenatic” has been coined (invented) for the special purpose of effective words for this post only. As such the author of the post is not aware of such a word existing in the dictionary and now takes the responsibility of describing it.
“Shamenatic” is a noun and in general it means the reverse of a “fanatic” and stands for a so-called fan bringing more disgrace to his IDOL by choice of over-praising the idol or belittling other competitive icons and rivals.
Thanks and enjoy the new word “SHAMENATIC”
February 17th, 2010 at 12:06 pm
Dhaniram and Rafi bhakt,
Rafi is a revered singer in Hindi Cinema. Everybody knows it.
But, as satyansh ji, says, bhakti towards one should not turn as hostility towards others and no demeaning words should be used towards any singer. I request Dhaniram ji to take this advise positively as I feel, the post of Sri Dhaniram ji creates such feeling.
Why don’t you respond positively to paramjeet ji’s comments on gayaki and sangeet. I am sure lively discussions will follow if prejudiced comments are not made.
To my knowledge, saigal, with his very few songs, enjoys a great reverence in hindi film music. Such reverence with hardly close to 200 songs is indeed rare.
Rafi Bhakt
How can you conclude that if ghantasala would have been born as hindi singer , he could not have surpassed rafi ? On what basis could you arrive at this conclusion ? Could you kindly clarify? Excepting ghantasala’s classical and semiclassical talents, (which you acknowledge as incomparable - thanks for the compliment) what is your knowledge on ghantasala, telugu film industry and southern film music and contribution of ghantasala as a musician cum playback singer & other musical areas of ghantasala’s contribution ?
A sincere advise. Sitting and passing comments is very easy job. I request, please read the hundreds of posts in Divine Voice thread here - and see how discussions are made, You will know and further you are also welcome to initiate such type of positive discussions.
February 16th, 2010 at 12:08 pm
Dhani bhai,
Chalo theek hai Saigal ne ‘hai’ ko ‘haee’ bol diya.. Khush?
Ab janab, isi forum mein gayakon ki diction pe charcha hui thi arghyaji, satyanshji aur mere beech mein.. Padh lijiyega, kaam ayega.. Kitni baar Rafi ne (sirf Rafi hi kyun, kaafi logon ne), shabdon ko tod marod ke, vikrut roop se pesh kiya hai.. ‘bha’ ko ‘ba’, shabdon mein atirikt ‘u’ , ‘intezaar’ ko ‘in-tezaar’- aur sunaoon?? Magar humne sirf yeh baatein charcha kari hai aur har gayak ki ek ‘ada’ hoti hai ‘diction’ ki,, agar aapko Saigal mein khamiayn nazar aayegi to humein bhi Rafi mein..
Aur dusri baat, ab yeh mat kehna Myk ki tarah ki Rafi ke saath sab gayakon ki tulna ki jaati hai.. Rafi fans aese behuda harqat karenge sab gayakon ke baare mein to unke bhakt kya Rafians ko sir pe bithaake nachenge??
Saigal ke range pe baat kar rahe ho?? Chalo, Saigal ka ek gaana bataao jismein unhone ek line ko udara saptak gandharva mein lagaye ho aur phir usi ko tara saptak mein gandharva mein?? Jawab deke jaana Dhani Ram, warna samajh lo.. Apna mooh kala karke jaaoge yahan se.. Pehle Kishore ko kuchh bola aur ab Saigal ko?? Woh bhi bina sune(ya phir bina samjhe).. Mujhe is sawal ka jawaab chahiye Dhani Ram miyan, bina jawab diye yahan se gaye, to taiyaar rehna, Faridabad se aur bhi Saigal bhakt aake aapko aese aese aur takniki prashna karne lagenge(weh khud ya phir mere through), apne saare expert comments bhul jaaoge..
Waise Arghyabhai, kisi ek prani ki dum tedhi ki tedhi hi rehti hai.. Yeh Myk , Rafi bhakt aur Dhani Ram jaise log kuchh aese hi hai.. Sirf ubaasi lenge (yawn)-jaise Satyanshji ne bola- aur chavanni type ke comment karke nikal jayenge.
February 15th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
among hindi film singers rafi is not only incomparable but far ahead of all others.More than an icon saigal is a fetish with some people.Having an extremely limited vocal range,saigal had a limited repertoire.his articulation is imperfect. he sings: kya jaadu haeee when it should be hai. song after song it is the same monotony.that is why hardly anybody listens to him except those who wish to look different.saigal couldn’t have sung any of rafi’s songs with any success whereas rafi could have even if not with hundred percent success . Imagine saigal even trying guzare hain aaj ishq mein hum us muqaam se or main nigaarhein tere chehare se hataon kaise and scores and scores of others cherished by millions. ajahoon na aae balma saigal couldn’t have sung in his dream even.
well,so far as saigal’s praise by rafi is concerned,it happens when one is struggling and the other is already in his prime.in the initial stages rafi might have even tried to imitate saigal but that proves nothing.mukesh’s example has been cited.but after dil jalta and some others mukesh had to get out of the mould as he knew that as saigal clone he had no future.
saigal,a foundational singer for hindi film industry– yes, a great singer- no. rafi’s equal,by no means.please excuse me.
February 14th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
Kiran aur Rafi bhakt (Agar aap dono alag alag insaan hai to)
aap logon ne gayaki se baat shuru ki aur ab lokpriyata mein pahoonch gaye.. To yeh bhi bata doon ki Saigal sahab ne kareeb 200 gaane gaye hai aur Rafi ne hazaron gaane, live shows aadi ityadi. To Rafi ki appeal aam aadmi mein zyada hi hogi.. Magar Rafi ko bhi ‘resurrect’ karna padta hai Sonu Nigam se beech beech mein, to lokpriyata ki baat chhod dijiye..
Saigal ki gayaki pe jo baatein Satyanshji aur Arghyaji ne rakhi hai(aur unke samakaleen gayakon pe bhi), pehle un pe vistaar se alochana kariye , phir mere paas bhi kuchh aur sawal hai, us par aayenge..
Ulta pulta baatein karke yahan se khisak mat jaana.. Agar gyan hai to gayaki pe baat karo warna apna moooh bandh rakho.. Yahan pe bahut jaankaar log baithe hai, yeh mohdrafi.com nahi ki jo mooh mein aaye bol diye aur nikal gaye.. Har ek point leke agar hum baith gaye na janaab, to paseene paseene ho jayoge aur aakhir mein ‘Rafi greatest’ , ‘Rafi greatest’ karke khaali naare hi lagaate rahoge, bina kisi valid points ke..
February 14th, 2010 at 9:49 am
The whole thing is sheerly ridiculous to say the least.. It is again one of those cheap agendas of Rafi fanatics to show down the bygone legends.. To question first on Saigal and then the quality of his contemporary singers(which includes the likes of K C Dey and Pankaj Mullick) is a classic example of ignorance and biasedness. I think Rafi sahab himself being not so outspoken about his peers and predecessors plays an influence of his fan circles being this much of disrespectful to other legends and demeaning their contribution. Sheerly dissapointing.
Satyansh/Paramjeet,
I am yet to see a day when these blind Rafians can talk of anything apart from generic abstract remarks with no- I repeat, no- technical backup whatsoever.Both of you being trained in Hindustani classical would know this better. To say “Rafi’s voice was the most melodious” is again a very superfluous remark as it needs to be defined what is “melody” in their definition. They might like the soft, silky and less bassy voice more but that does not mean it is “more melodious”(but “sweeter” perhaps).. As that way, even Pandit Bhimsen Joshi is not melodious then- whose voice has a heavy, bassier and deep texture. To term something as per your own convenience and liking is utterly disgusting as that closes the technicality of any discussion whatsoever.
Popularity is never a measure of class, talent. Even in popularity, no matter what terms Rafians use (lakhs, crores, millions, trillions- err, only to be careful not to exceed the total population of Planet Earth
), none knows it better than me that in International level(except Islamic coutries), Kishore Kumar remains the most popular male Indian singer ever.. Even one of my very close freinds recently concluded a full house show on Kishore recently in L.A.. But there also, you cannnot talk with facts and figures to rafians, as they would again start the same generic abstract remarks 
Lastly, you are not doing any favour by calling Saigal “great”, my dear Rafibhakt.. Even if you and a handful of your hooligun maniac accomplices terms him as “crap” also(which you guys must be doing in your private sessions), still he would remain the “BEST PLAYBACK” and “FATHER OF INDIAN FILM MUSIC” and the “GREATEST”.. No Rafi or no Kishore can replace Saigal, a feat unattained even till date.
So, keep it up, Rafians.. You dont have anything to lose.. Certainly, such comments would make younger generation to repel against Saigal more, and your goals would be accomplished. Honestly, I did not expect this stunt against someone like Saigal, but anyways, “der aaye, durast aaye”
Next is what? Bhimsen Joshi? I think now someone would say, Rafi could sing a Darbari Kanada or a Malkauns better than Joshi sahab??? Dont worry, no technical explanations or backups required, only declaring yourself as a Rafian would suffice to make “generic statements”… Hum samajh lenge
February 13th, 2010 at 9:03 am
Still didn’t work, copy/pasting again.
Vivek Vardhan [Post 1670],
I agree with you that Saigal was immensely popular and I spoke in this context in Post 387 in the Divine Voice thread. I think he is the only person in Hindi cinema who is as revered as Ghantasala. The legends most of us listen to have all been fans of KLS. It’s Saigal’s songs that I personally cherish the most.
Rafibhakt [Post 1674],
Saigal jaise guNi vyakti ko to har tulna se pare rakha jata hai par ab ek Rafi-paKSHapati ne uss ankahe niyam ka bhi ulanGHan kar diya.
“…Saigal - guru of bollywood - Kab se ban gaye …”
Since Rafi-fanatics are fond of quotes, here is what Mahendra Kapoor said about Saigal “…Saigal saab ko to hum sab ustaad mante hain hamare film music mein. Inse bhi mujhe bahut kuch seekhne ko mila…”. Add to that what Lata, Kishore, Rafi, Jagjit Singh, etc. have said about Saigal, I will let you re-evaluate your preceding statement.
“…Saigal ke jamane me itna competition aur talent nahi tha, jo ki praja log anek talent ke bare me jankari prapt karein…Rafi would have easily overtaken saigal, whose voice had nasal effect, if saigal was there at the time of rafi…”
It is disappointing that Rafi-fanatics do not leave any legend alone and have this time targeted Saigal and his peers. You said that during Saigal’s time there wasn’t much talent and competition. Think again and listen to those classics. To me the great Manna Dey’s guru was mighty talented, and there were more in that era. Your speculation of Rafi overtaking Saigal is baseless. Try to understand music before you say that Saigal’s voice has a nasal effect. His expression of poetry is unmatched as yet in Hindi music. Do you understand the meaning of ORIGINAL interpretation? I have often tried to highlight that. Try to listen to Saigal’s songs and understand the many different ways in which all others are influenced by him. Of course, people add their own variations (good and bad) as they learn and grow, however, all these should be evaluated in context and based on the times that these contributions were made. As an example, if we lose context, based upon the know-how of the great mathematicians and physicists of today, India’s invention of 0 and the other numerals 1 through 9 (sometimes known as Arab Numerals) would have little to no value. This might also be the case for the great contributions of Socrates, Plato, etc.
I am not saying that Saigal could or could not sing everything, but his style and interpretation were exemplary. Few people today understand and listen to Saigal. The bottomline is you have to understand what he did with sur, how he said certain words, his pronunciation, expressions, etc. before you start talking about how Rafi would have easily overtaken Saigal. Rafi was simply not good at that style of singing. Please enlighten me on how Rafi would have sung “Nayanheen Ko” - the song loses much of it’s charm if one doesn’t do justice to the lower notes. Most of Saigal’s songs fall in this category. There is a song “Paanchi Kahe Hot Udaas” that I was talking to a friend about just the other day. The beauty with which Saigal says “Dekh” and “Uth” are simply unmatched. Again there are parts of this song too that are not Rafi’s style. Saigal was the master of the type of songs he sang. As long as that style was in vogue, Rafi did not have a chance. Even after Saigal, his style remained in demand and Mukesh and Talat were very successful in the beginning. Listen to Mukesh’s “Dil Jalta Hai” and understand what he was trying to do. C.H. Atma was also greatly influenced by Saigal. There was a song “Kehne Ko Bahut Kuch Tha”. Could Rafi do justice to that? Kishore could sing in Saigal’s style as well as his own. “Jagmag Jagmag” is a good example of a song where there is an inkling of both Saigal and Kishore’s own style. IMO, Rafi could not do justice to “Saigal-type” of songs. Now, if you like Rafi-type songs more than Saigal, Manna, Mukesh, Talat or Kishore’s; that is your choice. I enjoy them all depending on the mood.
If people want to enjoy Saigal, at the least they have to do the following:
1) Understand the poetry first and try to make sense of his expressions.
2) Pay attention to his harkatein, especially in the lower notes.
3) Pay attention to his pauses - it is a very important aspect of a few songs of his.
4) Meditate on his voice and let him take you into a trance.
Lastly, it is sad that you call yourself a “bhakt”, but lose the basic essence of bhakti in your posts. At the least, bhakti towards one should not result in hostility towards another.
February 12th, 2010 at 3:27 pm
Paramjeet,
OK You say saigal can never be surpassed. True, but only applicable to era of saigal.
Rafibhakt is correct - rafi cannot be surpassed. If you combine the contribution of saigal and rafi, with due respects to saigal, I agree with rafi bhakt that rafi saab is the greatest singer. Just count the rafi lovers and saigal lovers - rafi lovers will be in millions spanning across many generations. Saigal ji is just not known to many.
February 12th, 2010 at 11:43 am
Rafibhakt,
Even Rafi said that Saigal is unsurpassed. ek baar nahi, kayin baar.
So, this shud put an end to your funny claims also
Kitna sangeet sikha hai apne, Bhaktji? Bahut hi saprem prashna hai aap se.. Kyunki aap itne saare DECISIONS le rahe hai Saigal, Kishore, Rafi ke upar to thoda jaan ne ki ichha ho rahi hai.. Ya aap bhi un Rafi bhakton mein se ho jo aap ne aap ko mahaan sangeetpremi maante hai sirf is liye ki woh Rafian hai?
Aap jitne Rafi premi sangeetkaar ke naam batayenge main utne hi Kishore bhakton ke naam bata doonga.. Phir rahi sawal, rafi fan aur kishore fans ke aapas ki knowledge ki, aap meri, arghyaji, satyanshji aur surajit ji ke comments to padhe hi honge, unko khudke post ke saath compare karo, pata chal jayega kisne kitna gaana sikha hai.
Aur agli baar badi badi baatein karne se pehle sangeet pe baat karna.. Aap ko kya lagta hai ya nahi lagta hai usse haqeeqat nahi badalti
February 11th, 2010 at 7:30 pm
Arghya & paramjeet,
Please do not get excited. I have never said anything against Saigal, You have misinterpreted it according to your convenience, in fact I stated saigal is one of the great singers. Only point was he did not face any talented singers similar to mohd rafi ji, during his tenure. I have heard saigal, rafi’s melody is clearly superior to saigal. I maintain, Rafi cannot be surpassed. Regarding kishore, I do not think, kishore surpassed rafi, if that is the case, rafi need not have been singing hundreds of songs in 1970’s. I am sure, if a song like jo wada kiya woh, or o duniya ke rakhwale, man tarpat hari darshan ko, yeh chaand sa roshan chehra, - I cannot even think of kishore creating any magic similar to rafi. Whereas for sure, if mere sapnon ki rani or gaata rahe mera dil would have rendered by rafi, they would surely have been altogether different.
Rafi’s song is a tonic to patient, a pleasure to couple, a mesmerism to even growing children, a soothing effect for even current generations.
Regarding maska to vitthal ji, I know very well he is a staunch rafi fan, who had penned his posts in mohd rafi.com since long back, I think paramjeet is mistaken. Vitthal’s choosing of ghantasala is quite natural (as he is a telugu man) who was another specialised talent, and this has been proved in mohdrafi.com as well - some 700 to 800 posts are discussions on comparison between rafi and ghantasala there under true voice col.
Further, paramjeet, I think, if ghantasala was there in hindi, with a due exception for his unique classical/semi classical presentations, where he can easily surpass rafi, - with due respect with regard to other areas, sure he would have done very great, but , in my view, might not surpass rafi. In south, he is unchallenged numero one, and I know even rafi could not make any impact in telugu before ghantasala, and taking into account the undisputed Rafi’s contribution as a whole, rafi could not have been surpassed in hindi, even if ghantasala was in hindi, though sure, he would have done really exceptional but not surpassing rafi (however, classical/semiclassical talents as already stated are exempted , as in these areas, ghantasala stands class apart)
Coming to kishore surpassing rafi, no singer, including your kishore kumar will agree for it, I think only kishore fans would say such statements, whereas kishore himself claims that rafi can never be surpassed. This should put a end to your claims paramjeet.
February 4th, 2010 at 9:19 pm
Bhattacharyaji,
Yeh baat to pakki hai ki is lekh ke lekhak ne ’single note’ se kuchh aur hi bolne ki prayas kari hai.. Ab woh ekdum kya bolna chahte hai yeh to unhi se poochhna padega.. Maine jitna samjha mujhe ek hi baat lagi Dard E Dil mein ki woh ek ghazalish gaana hai pashchatya orchestra pe…
Rafibhakt,
Are mahagyani gandharva, pehle Saigal ko sun le achhi tarah se.. Agar Saigal ‘nasal’ hai to main bhi bol sakta hoon Rafi ki awaaz mein ‘bass nahi hai’ aur isi liye Kishore ki buland awaaz ki jab daur chali to woh fir kabhi nahi uth paye. Tujhe takniki baat karni hai gayaki pe to aa ek ek karke baat karenge yahan pe.. Apni adhi adhuri gyan leke tippani mat maar yahan pe.. Aur woh Ghantasala wali last line kya thi? Vitthalji ko maska maar raha hai kya yahan pe?