An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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December 27th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Anil,
Both rafi and ghantasala are equally great playback singers and both are equally attractive in their songs and versatile contribution, one in hindi and other mostly in telugu. Ghantasala has rendered hundreds of songs in tamil and kannada languages as well for your information, and some songs in malayalam also, I think you are aware. In fact, he was first musician from the south, as KJY himself claims, that whose contribution has been the main cause for popularity of south indian music. Thus, he was the father of southern playback singing from whom incidentally, all others namely, kjy, spb, p suseela, s janaki and others (I have personally heard from p suseela and s janaki) have learnt techniques of playback singing from ghantasala. This is the extract of K J Yesudas speech for your information.
http://www.ghantasala.info/theman/kjj.html
And as a musician, ghantasala clearly stands ahead of rafi, and of course, KJY is technically well qualified, I agree with you, but again from Perfect unique voice factor, ghantasala is ahead of Yesudas as well as the former’s voice was more melodious and unique than yesudas too.
And further, in tamil, sounderrajan is popularly called as tamil ghantasala for your information - your own words of benchmark factor. And sounderrajan and SPB both were introduced by ghantasala in film world for your information. Ghantasala had only one limitation, his deteriorating health factor from mid 60’s, which was the main reason for his leaving tamil and kannada languages and concentrating more on telugu (even in telugu in latter stages I understand he used SPB for one song he composed due to his bad health). Otherwise, he would have completely routed out all others for longer period, as in 50’s he was numero one in southern playback singing. I have seen no singer who can render padyams as beautifully as ghantasala renders, of course the beauty comes by virtue of his gifted majestic voice which is obviously the perfect male voice.
December 27th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Anil ji,
One doubt from your posts which you alone could clarify I think ? You believe rafi could not have rendered sankarabharanam raga as effectively as SPB did (which is again a dispute matter according to classical musicians), but you are quite sure SPB did not mention ghantasala, well SPB cannot mention ghantasala. SPB, can he have the guts, to comment on the stalwart ghantasala for sankarabharanam raga ? I agree with Srivas ji, it was a childish comment - challenging the talent of best of the stalwarts. Another point, as Srivas ji states ghantasala’s excellence in the raga, and according to you rafi’s limitations of the raga, clearly proves ghantasala ahead of rafi again from your post. Moreso, Khan ji who is here again clearly confirms it.
Next, not a single day passes in SPB TV Programmes without his mentioning and praising ghantasala - I have seen most of SPB programmes for your information. Who said, on demand, he makes statements - that is you fallacious imagination. You can confirm this fact from Mr. Prabhanjan himself, and he too will confirm the same, I am sure, as he has already confirmed this earlier in one post.
And Next, as a complete singer and musician, KJY does not match upto ghantasala as a singer, at best he can be brought on par with P B Srinivas, who too incidentally is technically well qualified. Ghantasala’s voice is more melodious with soft and sharper touch vis-a-vis KJY’s voice, of whom I have heard many songs. Ghantasala’s voice is perfect male and majestic voice - which no other singer had, frankly including mohd. rafi, whose voice, I have personally seen, is disputed by many too. However, rafi’s voice is melodious and attractive as compared to other singers, of course after ghantasala.
Even as one Mr. Kishore fan puts here, kishore kumar had to some extent that type of voice, to some extent matching ghantasala’s. Kishore’s voice of 50’s was of that type, and unfortunately, in 50’s his real talent could not be exposed. By the time he shot into fame in 70’s I think, he was not as melodious as he was in the 50’s & 60’s. In fact, I like his 50’s songs better than his Aradhana songs to be frank.
December 26th, 2009 at 11:32 pm
Khan sahab,
thanks for your post after a long time sir. I welcome you to this site. Please, if you could, pay a visit do divine voice thread for some interesting discussions on music sir.
December 26th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Dear Srivas saheb,
It has been since a long time I have posted in rafi forum. An interesting post by you on “sankarabharanam” rag which is the “Bhilaval thaat” in Hindusthani music and is certainly the king of the rags in carnatic. I fully agree with you, it is one of the best of the melodious rags and yes, only individuals with melodious voice and technically well qualified can alone bring beauty to the rag as it encompasses all the seven notes in itself.
Coming to discussion on playback singers, rafi sahab had a melodious voice among all the hindi playback singers along with lata mangeshkar ji as well, and both could mostly do justice to all the songs which they had sung, from the hindusthani point of view.
Kishore fan sahab, Sri vas sahab & Vitthal sahab,
I had listened to ghantasala sahab in rafi forum through one Mr. Gani sahab, and I can frankly confirm that he is far ahead of all the playback singers whom I have heard till today. Whether it be melody, wider voice range, depth in classical singing, switching of notes, hitting and sustaining of notes quite comfortably even at extreme high pitches, perfection from rag angle, ghantasala sahab is clearly far ahead of all other playback singers notably who have been discussed here viz., rafi, manna de, talat, lata or yesudas, spb etc. from the south. There is no doubt in that. It is not a surprise at all that ghantasala sahab has been admired in kishore forum as well, which is due to his incomparable genius and I was sure long back, any musician whosoever hears ghantasala sahab clearly gets carried away. Keep it up music lovers. All the best.
I wanted to post here because I saw incidentally this khan sahab’s name propping up in some post here and wanted to share some views, of course, which were shared by me earlier already in rafi forum.
May almighty god bless all the people.
December 26th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
Srivas ji,
A fitting musical reply - appreciations sir. One of my favourite songs Kanarara - by ghantasala you have posted. Thanks for the same. I am sharing the same with Arghya ji. The king of the ragas - sankarabharanam raga is indeed stupendous.
December 26th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Dear Ghantasala and Ghantasala&Kishore fans:
This is the source on which comments were based (posted by a Ghantasala fan himself)
“I have seen the “Paaduta Teeyaga” programme of SPB on 21/12/2009 on ETV telugu and yes, I too felt uncomfortable on the comments made by SPB. In fact, SPB quoted that so great singer rafi rendering the “sankara” song might not have achieved the recognition it ihas achieved in telugu by SPB. I think, if I am not wrong, SPB did not mention Ghantasala here with reference to the song (he mentioned only rafi), though he & Viswanath subsequently jointly quoted that the popularity wise, the song would not have achieved prominence similar to SPB, if the same was sung by ghantasala or rafi.
Of course, both SPB and Sri Viswanath, as you said, speedily closed the issue by stating that both ghantasala and rafi were “Aradhya daivalu” (gods whom we worship) and again Sri Viswanath quoting that after hearing Ghantasala he cannot hear SPB.”
Tell me, who’s lying?
I also suggest you take some time reading the posts before jumping in with some response seeing the name of your favourite singer and sensing he’s in some sort of danger.
I didn’t comment about the ‘raag shankarabharanam’, I’m not qualified enough to do that though I’m aware it’s a ’sampoorna raaga’ and is the equivalent of the major scale. I was talking about the song ’shankara…’- the most famous one of the movie and the one SPB was talking about. I repeat- Rafisahab wouldn’t have been able to make THIS PARTICULAR SONG as appealing to common folks as SPB sir did. Ghantasalaji I’m leaving out of picture since SPB sir himself (I choose to go by the source I’ve reproduced above) didn’t mention his name. It’s not about having a better grasp of the ‘raag’, it’s about the style- this particular song has the typical Carnatic short-n-sharp ‘taan’ at every turn. It’s also about the feel- difficult to convey for someone who doesn’t know the language. And I’m not a fool to state that Rafi sahab can’t sing a basic ‘raag’.
Let me comment something about the so-called shortcoming of SPB in the songs of this movie. When the creators of the movie approached SPB, they knew what they wanted; otherwise they’d have gone for anyone ranging from Dr.BMK to Dr.K J Yesu Das. They wanted someone who could act out the song and convey things in a proper filmy (read obvious) manner and they got it from the singer. Then who can complain? If classical wizards think the singing didn’t capture the essence of the ‘raag’, what’s the big deal? People absolutely lapped up the songs and the classical music got a shot in the arm (though temporarily) because of the movie.
Over to SPB’s idols- I have listened to/ read him stating on several occassions, sometimes unsolicited that Rafi is his greatest idol, he places Yesu Das next. He has high regards for S.Janaki too. He has spoken highly of Ghantasalaji too, but that’s mostly on demand. May be Prabhanjan, if he’s around, can throw light on it.
December 26th, 2009 at 5:46 pm
Anil, -1616 - your views here - totally biased and without facts.
I am a south indian classically trained carnatic musician and seeing your post on “sankarabharanam Raga” - was interested to quote some facts. I hope you will honestly take it seriously.
“Now to SPB’s statement; I haven’t seen the video but if he did say that Rafi can’t sing ‘Shankarabharanam’ as well as he himself did, he was speaking plain truth. The song was set in pure Carnatic raag and style and in chaste Kannada language. Rafisahab wouldn’t have been able to do as well. The only issue with Balu sir’s statement is the interpretations people have come up with. He wasn’t selling Rafi sahab short; he wouldn’t do that in the wildest of dreams- not to someone he virtually worships. Now, why did SPB sir mentioned Rafi’s name and not Yesu Das’ or some other singer’s? Only because he finds Rafisahab to be the benchmark and for no other reason. ”
Well, your last sentence is a lie. Ghantasala is equally mentioned along with rafi in the programme, which I have personally seen, and SPB calls both rafi and ghantasala as gods whom I worship. So is ghantasala not a benchmark ?
Next, Sankarabharanam Raga, with due respect to SPB (specially Prabhanjan ji to excuse ), I was given to understand that not only SPB, even the music director K V Mahadevan were criticised stating that the perfect qualities of sankarabharanam raga have not been found in the film “sankarabharanam”. Criticism on K V Mahadevan ji (i admire him for his social movies) on film sankarabharanam too were part of recent TV programme, which I had personally seen. I was also given to understand that it was none other than Balamuralikrishna himself, the carnatic stalwart was not satisfied with the sankarabharanam effect in the film. But I am least interested in such points, but am forced to expose your limited knoweldge in your posts. As a carnatic musician myself, I can confirm the limitations of sankarabharanam raga in the film “sankarabharanam”
And I am plainly told by musicians , if you have to enjoy highest pure quality sankarabharanam raga in films perfectly, ghantasala stands the best example. There is no doubt in that. The raga is so melodious in nature, I am aware, and in films I believe that only voice range similar to ghantasala or perhaps even rafi can create wonders with the raga, specially the former.
And rafi cannot singing the raga, simply ridiculous the word I can use. I will try to come up, if time permits, with rafi’s excellent renditions in the raga, for your information, how rafi can effectively render the raga.
A BRIEF NOTE ON SANKARABHARANAM RAGA / ITS QUALITIES
It is a sampurna raga consisting of all the seven notes (sa to ni) and undoubtedly regarded as the one the best melodious ragas of all the ragas and as “king of the ragas”. Only melodious voices can bring out the true qualities of the raga. Not only sankarabharanam, even kalyani, bilahari, mohana, hindola , Abheri, Kanada, begada, Kambhoji Ragas to name a few, only gifted melodious voices can bring beauty to the ragas, as the qualities of these ragas are such in nature that even technically trained people fail in bringing out the perfect qualities in these ragas.
The Note “ma” is generally mixed with the “ga” note, to give beauty to the sankarabharanam raga.
By the way, meanwhile, please do not forget to give your comments as true music lover, to this one in sankarabharanam raga by ghantasala - the perfect melody & qualities of sankarabharanam raga, how it is greatly composed & sung : you will get what it is ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiobIYE96Xw
(the song starts from 1:06)
December 26th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Dear friends, sorry -I am violating my own statement that it was my last post. The only point I tried to make was that you never write much articles appreciating the good songs of KK and are more interested in going for aruguments. I had said the same thing in the mohdrafi.com site also.
I do not like fanaticism by anyone-in fact when things were becoming too shrill, I stopped seeing that site also for some time.
Agreed in that site also few over-zealous fans go overboard, but at least we have many good articles appreciating the songs of Rafi sahab, the difference here is that you are more interested in attacking Rafi. Anyhow your last published article about KK remains dated 5 months old.
The angry reactions against me calling me oversmart, hypocrite etc shows the extreme reactions. There is no need for anyone to comment on this post as it is my absolutely last post.. I shall remain a fan of Mukesh, KK, Talat, Manna da, Hemant Kumar and Mahindra Kapoor-also TMS, KJ & SPB from South-(if anyone of the KK fans had understood my post correctly ) -of course as I said Rafi is closer to my heart than all others and most of we Rafi fans try to at least become as gentle as he was…..hence no hard feelings from my side
Chalte chalte mere yeh geet yaad rakhna, kabhi alvida na kehna—one of the masterpices by KK….WISHING YOU ALL A VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR..
Siva
December 26th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Hello anil ji - 1616, - You are exposed pl. I present the following strong evidences against your post. I hope you will be honest in replying.
In divine voice blog , Both rafi and ghantasala are only mentioned and not yesudas please - post 365 If rafi is benchmark, why ghantasala was mentioned. Even in post 366 the same is confirmed. It is confirmed you have ignored ghantasala despite he being mentioned there, but wanted to put up a defence against rafi - you are exposed clearly. That clearly shows your partial exposure, again partially exposing bias towards rafi, (this is where the problem arises) and shadingly not referring to ghantasala, despite being mentioned there. SPB had clearly referred both of them as worshipping gods there. What do you “plainly” say on that ?
Since you have mentioned, i wanted to clarify. You have not carefully understood my post, I believe. No body coming close, even our surajit dada has confirmed. I hope in RMIM etc, which you were mentioning, surajit ji is also active participant. Next , you were mentioning, Sanjeev Ramabhadran ji, in RMIM, a musician himself, i invite your attention to posts in true voice of rafi forum by one Mr. Pardus, where in he states that Sanjeev Ramabhadran ji rates ghantasala as the best among filmy classical singers. So was confirmed by Surajit ji and others as well, & Mr. Khan, another hindusthani musician in true voice, as well holds the same view, you might well remember. Next manna & yesudas vs. ghantasala, the latter had a “magnificient voice” having great depth capable of even taking wonderful high pitches mixed with technical talent, there makes the difference for his attractive renditions.
December 26th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Kishorefanji:
This is not an answer to your post as such; but I think I have to make certain things clear. I don’t know how much familiar you are with South Indian film music and classical music. Ghantasalaji was a master in Carnatic classical music who ventured into film world, composed several songs and sang songs composed by him and also by others. That he was technically great goes without saying. But to say noone from the film world is close is an over-statement. Manna da is definitely comparable as a singer and Yesu Das sir can rival him any day. You can find it out for yourself by arranging a trip to Chennai Musical Academy when Das sir gives his concert (katcheri). If that’s not possible you can very well search youtube videos of Das sir’s concerts and some of his film classical/semi classical songs, especially in Malayalam. You can also search the net and find out what some of the finest classical exponents (Dr.BMK for instance) think about Yesu Das.
Okay, both Mannada and Das sir are technically better equipped than Rafi sahab. But what do these luminaries say about Rafi sahab? More or less the same thing- that God has blessed Rafi sahab in a different way. What they mean is that Rafi sahab could do with his voice, with limited training, what they themselves can’t do despite their superior technical strength. Are these two playing over-modest? They can’t be, they don’t have to be actually. Mannada might have said that Lataji is technically superior to Rafisahab and he is right. But did he say that Lataji is a better singer? I don’t think he did; rather he mostly keeps these two on par (from whatever I’ve read/ seen). Now to SPB’s statement; I haven’t seen the video but if he did say that Rafi can’t sing ‘Shankarabharanam’ as well as he himself did, he was speaking plain truth. The song was set in pure Carnatic raag and style and in chaste Kannada language. Rafisahab wouldn’t have been able to do as well. The only issue with Balu sir’s statement is the interpretations people have come up with. He wasn’t selling Rafi sahab short; he wouldn’t do that in the wildest of dreams- not to someone he virtually worships. Now, why did SPB sir mentioned Rafi’s name and not Yesu Das’ or some other singer’s? Only because he finds Rafisahab to be the benchmark and for no other reason.
December 26th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Satyansh:
I have made it clear that I don’t include Arghya and Paramjeet among what I call a ‘typical’ Kishore fan. It is your good fortune that you have now guys like these here to debate with. Let some others (I don’t want to name them) enter the scene and then you will find out what they are capable of. Not only that most of them find Kishoreda to be the best in everything, they also find it their duty to hurl choicest of abuses at other singers/MDs (Rafi being singled out for obvious reasons). Religion is very much a part of the parcel. If you are still in doubt, I’d request you to visit youtube, click on any Rafi-Kishore duet video and scroll down to the comments. A word of caution too, do the exercise at your own risk because you’d find filth galore.
Coming back to your experience in mohdrafi.com vis-a-vis this site, let me say the differences are bound to be there. For one thing, you were dealing with a lot more number of people, all fierce Rafi fans (myself included) and you were trying to change what is belief to them and notion to you. So some strong repercussion was always on the card. Think of a situation where you are exclusively debating with the people you mentioned plus Manish (someone who could qualify to be ‘balanced’ according to you) and you are not trying to teach them something; you’d have a real good time… right? This is the kind of situation you have here now. It’s not that Rafi fans are intrinsically ruffians and Kishore fans liberal, better-enlightened folks.
Speaking of Paramjeet correcting people, have you ever seen him defending Rafi? He defended Manna when up against Rafi and Jagjit Singh and Mehdi Hassan for their anti-Rafi remark. He is absolutely entitled to his views especially as a Kishore fan and I don’t have to make any noise out of it nor would I want to make much noise out of the self-claimed musical maestro’s branding Rafi as a crooner without dimension.
You have highlighted the issue of some Rafi fans trying to pull down people from the rival camp; but haven’t you seen them (Mr.Haldar included) praising KK especially and others (like RDB)? Infact I haven’t seen the reverse (of KK fans praising Rafi and his camp-wallas) much, except by Arghya.
That’s it for now.. let me try and visit your site and may be we can exchange our ‘musical’ views over there..
The list of songs I dont have; but may be I can help you find out someone who’s having it.
December 26th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Vitthal ji - 1608
Certainly true, the 50’s & 60’s in HFM cannot be surpassed at any time. Such pure musical environment and the gems we received during those period by the “great” rafi sahab - generations are going to celebrate and no further question on that.
Again agree with you on telugu field too - about 50’s & 60’s which again cannot be surpassed - Naturally, because the “maestro” ghantasala ji was the emperor there.
Satyansh ji - 1612
Agree with you that all talk highly of ghantasala, sure because he was a exceptional genius as you said. This point I can fully support because, in my view, ghantasala was exceptional in delivering pure classical music (in my view pure classical music carries away all music lovers) in which he was specialised, and incidentally as well as fortunately the said classical music found its way into telugu fim music. Moreover, I really got excited when One Mr. Srivas ji, a carnatic musician in the divine blog was stating that classical music without losing its original sheen and quality had developed filmy wonder & style in telugu film music, credits only due to ghantasala, for sure due to his gifted talent. Another fascinating point which was shared by Mr Srivas ji, was the undoubtedly great “Siva Sankari song” of ghantasala was recorded in one take by the genius. This is simply superhuman. I had responded there, nothing would have been happier to me to love the great mohd. rafi sahab singing the song siva sankari, as a carnatic musician, a dream however, which cannot materialise. Satyansh ji, I agree ghantasala stands exceptional - a maestro genius with magnificient voice who as I understand that was an accomplised music director as well in the south having composed music for over 100 films - a great feat.
I hope you would have read my posts in rafi forum as well, wherein we respect legends “as they are by virtue of their talents and contribution ” (for instance the genius - ghantasala ji) and you would appreciate that without the factor “as they are by virtue…” it would be really difficult to accept the greatness factor of any artist only to please the fans of concerned artist. This is where, I think the differences and abuses start. Positive flow of information certainly is positive for all. I am fully with you in this regard.
December 26th, 2009 at 9:45 am
Anil ji, you say
“If you want to think the Rafians hold a ‘bloated’ view of Rafi sahab’s prowess, let me say we are happy to live with it. After all, we have people like Yesu Das and SPB in our company. Yes, both these singers have declared that Rafi is indeed special (and even unique). SPB have infact made it clear that even Lata doesn’t belong to that class”.
Is it ?
Then you are caught. In divine voice blog here in post 365 and 366 there is information that SPB claims himself as better than rafi in one song. What do you say now for this? In fact we are given to understand that this statement is also given by One Shri Vishwanth along with SPB just last week on TV. Why you rafi fans do not discuss such issues and always simply quote so and so quoted rafi as …. Why you do not quote these points which were stated surprisingly against rafi (by his own admirers) To me, this is the first instance of SPB claiming himself as greater than rafi.
I have heard Yesudas - technically he also is certainly better than rafi for your information. And now SPB has also claimed so. And Rafi himself has claimed that he prefers manna. Many claim that even lata is technically better than rafi in hindi and so is manna de & I heard that even P B Srinivas from the south is ahead of rafi in this regard. But technically SPB or Yesudas or rafi or manna or lata, as Surajit Bose dada puts in divine voice blog, no body is even nearer to ghantasala.
And regarding rafi’s prowess or supremacy (rafi ji’s nice songs are greatly appreciated even by kishore fans for your information and we have utmost respect for rafi ji - but it is a geniune respect and not “bloated view” respect) or reign in bollywood it is well known that how kishore has emerged as the most preferred singer and here kishore was special. I need not talk much on this issue as all know about the great kishore and how he ONLY ONLY ONLY OVERTOOK RAFI IN HINDI.
There are certainly some fans who use unpleasant words when something is stated against their ‘favourite singer’ and this generally happens when some people (specially rafi fans to say) and moreover to say that his happens when they claim that their ‘favourite singer’ is best in each and every class which is a blatant lie (in particular with rafi as this has been proved in many cases). So your point of “bloated view” always remains and if you wish you can be content with it, but you have to appreciate the same feeling of tolerance towards other individuals as well.
December 26th, 2009 at 7:44 am
Anil,
I don’t think you are barging in at all. This is a public forum and you should be free to opine as much as anybody else. I hope that this exchange clears another barrier and we can discuss music even more freely. I don’t remember seeing a Kishore fan instigate an argument and degrade any legend. If you’d be interested, I’m sure we can arrange an exchange of simple quotes from the past and I feel that Rafi fans would far outnumber Kishore fans in misbehavior. I do understand that you have spent a lot more time on these forums than me and I’ve merely read a few posts here and there and came back again on a friend’s request.
I’m not making any hue and cry about Haldar ji’s statement. Myself and many others feel what he said is completely out of line. It cannot and should not be ignored. There is no point speculating if a [Kishore fan ever spoke to another “one word against our dada and you will be killed”?]. If one did, that would be out of line too and as cheap as the earlier statement. It does not make Haldar ji’s statement any less vulgar.
“…To your experience in the mohdrafi.com, let me say you would have been treated much worse in this site if you were to pit your favourite singer against Kishoreda in light songs when all those typical Kishore fans were around. You have only people like Arghya and Paramjeet and some Ghantasala fans to content with here as of now but try stating something ‘neutral’ like “Kishoreda is a good singer but Mannada scores over him in many areas of singing” when those hardcore people are around. Believe me, you’ll have it…”
lol - Sure, I don’t know what would have happened. So far I’ve had good experiences with Kishore fans. I’m not sure if a Kishore fan would say that Kishore was the best at everything. I’ve never ever heard a Kishore fan say that. KishoreFan and all others talk very highly of Ghantasala (rightly so, he is a GENIUS). Paramjeet ji himself came on the defense [Post 267 in “Divine Voice Thread”] when something was said about Manna Dey. Looks like a true music lover to me, he corrects people when he feels people have made an incorrect statement and that includes everybody. I had simply disagreed with Arghya’s opinion and Paramjeet ji made many valid counterpoints and Arghya had no problems in appreciating Paramjeet ji’s views. The “neutral” keyword seems like a potshot. It’s a good discussion, let’s not do that. It is pointless. I keep saying this, my favorite changes based upon the mahaul. Also, you are missing an important point of Rafi-fanatics bringing in region, religion, language, classism (to a lesser extent), etc. in music. That is horrible and would end up dividing people even further. We should NEVER do that. Can you show Kishore fans talking about legends like Rafi-fanatics have spoken about RDB, Salil, AB, etc.? Have you ever asked Rafi-fanatics to stop bringing region, religion, etc. into music?
“…Now, to say a Rafi fan cannot hold a ‘musical’ discussion is far off-mark…”
. In my mind, the term fanatic now applies to a far more radical person (given the recent usage of the term). A fan to me is a balanced enthusiast. Of course, there are good Rafi fans as well - Sudip; another gentleman on mohdrafi.com from the Bangalore unit (I don’t remember his name); Nitish Sinha, who always shares his music with countless others without ever thinking what singer they like, Naveen Zalpari, etc.
I did not say that. I can see how fan being an abbreviation for fanatic actually reads that way
“…If you want one, please name the platform and I’m more than happy to have it…”
You are always welcome to share your opinion with everybody and further substantiate it with examples. If you’d like to compile useful information on Rafi, I’d be glad to post it on my website to provide a counter-argument to my views on Rafi v/s Kishore. It would make for good reading and we could move the discussion there if it is about music alone. I know and respect that you had your reasons, but whenever you are ready you can start talking about the points we had in the other thread. Healthy discussions aside, comparisons are sickening. It is very annoying to stoop to a level where we have to start nit-picking on people who have given us so many songs. Wish it was more on the lines of traits/styles of different singers, etc. There are already a number of open points you can feel free to clarify at your convenience.
“…If you want to think the Rafians hold a ‘bloated’ view of Rafi sahab’s prowess…”
To say he is the best at everything is bloated. If somebody says Rafi was great in XYZ genres and feels he is their favorite, power to them. That is not the issue. Case in point is Vithal ji. He openly says he likes Rafi the most in HFM. However, he always maintains decent decor and shares gems from every singer with us. There is also Prabhanjan (SPB and Rafi fan), always neutral in his views. If you think I’m a Manna Dey fan alone (which I’m not), I will openly state here that I personally feel even Manna Dey was a close second to Kishore in terms of the purity of Kishore’s free-flowing khuli hui awaaz. Also, Rafi had the sweetest voice of all. There are no qualms in admitting that. I also find the extremely skilled Suresh Wadkar’s voice to be very sweet, wish he was utilized more. Every one of these legendary singers is better than others at some things and vice versa. The issue is that Rafi-fanatics claim that Rafi is the best at everything and deride every other singer and everybody else who did not share a bloated view of Rafi. These Rafi-fanatics are doing a disservice to the great Rafi.
Since we are exchanging info here, would you happen to have a list of all of Rafi and Manna Dey’s songs or do you know someone who can give me that info? I’d appreciate it.
December 25th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Anil,
Some points are well taken but disagree with others. 365 & 366 posts in divine voice blog you may please refer - Manna is greatly appreciated than kishore. Regarding SPB also a mark/blot has fallen on him very recently if you see those posts. What do you say on that ? You will be surprised to see the happening, I am sure.
An important point you have completely missed - In divine voice column I have shared not only ghantasala songs, but p suseela, spb as well for your kind information. Discussion is also on manna dey as well along with kishore kumar and rafi please. There is no confusion there among music lovers and no abusing of legends please. And pleasantly as true music lovers arghya ji, paramjeet ji, Satyansh ji or others have also contributed there including some western songs for your information pl.
Can music lovers discuss such freely about other talents in rafi forum ? Can you please confirm.
December 24th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
Satyansh:
Hope you wouldn’t mind my barging into this. I can’t agree with your views on Rafi fans. If you must form an opinion on the fans of Rafi sahab and Kishoreda on the basis of what they write in the internet, I would say the Kishore fans are, generally, (much) worse-behaved. I am not speaking about people like Arghya or Surajit but there are scores of them who goes into personal abuses using filthiest of languages. I agree there are such folks among the Rafi fans too but their number is much less. You don’t have to look anywhere else but the initial posts in this particular thread to see the pattern. You seem to be making much hue and cry about the statement made by Mr.Haldar whenever you can, though in reality he was reproducing something in his own words the fans of Rafi sahab used to talk among themselves. Can you say confidently that no Kishore fan ever spoke to another “one word against our dada and you will be killed”?
To your experience in the mohdrafi.com, let me say you would have been treated much worse in this site if you were to pit your favourite singer against Kishoreda in light songs when all those typical Kishore fans were around. You have only people like Arghya and Paramjeet and some Ghantasala fans to content with here as of now but try stating something ‘neutral’ like “Kishoreda is a good singer but Mannada scores over him in many areas of singing” when those hardcore people are around. Believe me, you’ll have it.
Now, to say a Rafi fan cannot hold a ‘musical’ discussion is far off-mark. If you want one, please name the platform and I’m more than happy to have it. Then there are Rafi fans (like Sanjeev Ramabhadran) who are musically well accomplished and who participate in the discussions (in RMIM and elsewhere).
If you want to think the Rafians hold a ‘bloated’ view of Rafi sahab’s prowess, let me say we are happy to live with it. After all, we have people like Yesu Das and SPB in our company. Yes, both these singers have declared that Rafi is indeed special (and even unique). SPB have infact made it clear that even Lata doesn’t belong to that class.
December 24th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Satyansh 1605
A true musical view…
Each and every word you have spoken out is not only a bare truth but also a lesson to be learnt for everyone..
That is why I insisted to close this thread.. To keep it open means to keep it open for invitation again for some more migratory birds to come and start twittering for no reason whatsoever..
I can take “auspicious knowledge” from all- Manna fans, Talat fans, True Rafi fans- but not from those “mahagyanis” from mohdrafi.com, who dont know how to respect bygone legends.
December 24th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Kishore fan ji
Kishore certainly overtook rafi - true in a certain way in 70’s and it was also true that the great rafi could not again regain the “charm & majesty in his voice” which he had in 50’s & 60’s. But, personally speaking, kishore fan ji, the 50’s & 60’s environment was unsurpassable. If kishore too was dominant at that time, it would have been nice, as I found kishore’s voice to be more clearer in 50’s & 60’s. Moreover, in telugu field too, the 50’s and 60’s is unsurpassable, as it was a clear reign by ghantasala in absolute terms. Even rafi had failed in telugu before the telugu legend, which you are aware.
December 24th, 2009 at 12:01 pm
Kishorefan bhai,
Main tang aa chuka hoon is topic se.. naseehat bade logon se sunna acchha lagta hai, aese logo se nahi jinki khud ki niyat bigdi ho..
Aur agar Myk ya koi bhi aur yeh sochta hai ke Rafi chhodke aur koi gayak hi nahi hai ya Rafi ke aas paas bhi koi nahi bhatak sakta to aese logon pe taras khaiye ke unko sangeet ki samajh kitni kam hai..
December 24th, 2009 at 11:52 am
1603 - Arghya ji.
Nice point you stated, I fully appreciate.
“Better to close something in an amicable enviornment rather than a bitter one..”
So that the amicable environment remains. Nice.
Kishore fan ji - 1604 & paramjeet ji, -1601
I am fascinated by your “rememberance factor” - Both of you remember many things and reproduce at appropriate intervals.
There should always be a healthy opposition - true , otherwise truth cannot be explored and balance cannot be maintained.
Even in house of parliament opposition party has importance, otherwise it is really tough to maintain balance.
Thus, to be in rafi’s favour rafi fans like MYK ji, (kishore fan ji - I believe MYK ji is a reformed rafi fan now subsequent to his discussion in other blog here) should be there to constructively argue and similarly, in favour of kishore, the likes of paramjeet ji and kishore fan ji too be there again on constructive terms. And for ghantasala, I am there ha ha ha…. paramjeet ji. It is long time that we have shared some nice moments.
December 24th, 2009 at 10:26 am
Siva [Post 1595],
I agree that fans of all singers should focus more on the positives of the singer than in comparisons. I feel you might be one of the neutral music lovers who saw this discussion in the later stages, however if you read it from the beginning you’ll get a picture of what is going on. I think your statement “…I find in your site there is a never ending comparison and talk about Rafi vs Kishore…” is misleading. Last I checked the Rafi site there were still comparisons going-on this time by matching up singers/MDs with cricketers. Going by what the hooligan there would imply, Rafi was the all-rounder and the best. What would you say about these comparisons via association? lol. It is funny and ridiculous beyond belief.
I’m totally with you if you tell those Rafi-fanatics to stop talking gibberish. Many like me ended up being part of this ridiculous comparison mainly because of Rafi-fanatics trying to prove Rafi is the best at everything and deriding every other singer and everybody else who did not share a bloated view of Rafi. There are so many degrading comments made by Rafi-fanatics that Paramjeet ji, Surajit, Vithal ji, KishoreFan, Arghya, etc. have listed numerous times. I’ve read his post by a guy who goes by the name “myk” where he says that people don’t like Rafi because he is from Lahore and he is Muslim. They talk about Kishore converting to Islam; they called people like Arghya, etc. regional fanatics because they like Kishore. They have called RDB, Salil, AB, etc. horrible things. Did you stop them from doing that? Can you honestly say that Kishore fans speak the same way about Naushad? Why don’t these people who bring religion into music say that Naushad supported Rafi because he was Muslim? FYI … I respect Naushad’s reasons and am glad the team of Naushad/Rafi/Shakeel gave us all those gems.
What religion do you think myk is? Couldn’t Arghya say he is a Muslim and therefore supporting Rafi, just like they say Arghya supports Kishore because he is a Bengali? Mind you, I know many Muslims who love Kishore and I also know Muslims who have openly said that they support Rafi because he was Muslim and some idiots also say he was from Pakistan lol. You will find crazy people on both sides, irrespective or religion, fan-club, etc. However, Rafi fans have crossed the line of decency long back. Do you remember Haldar ji giving death threats to people?
I understand and support Paramjeet ji’s views that Rafi-fanatics constantly ridicule legends and then try to act smart because they can’t hold a discussion on music. They will change it into trivia or some genius would start talking about region, religion or even laptops and adaptors (lol… I’m not kidding about the laptop, I’ve read one such post too). I’ve never seen Paramjeet ji be disrespectful.
This is the end of this topic for me. I only like to partake in discussions on music and feel it’s wrong for us to get into these comparisons. I hope Rafi-fanatics also stop their false propoganda in trying to show Rafi as the best at everything.
Lastly, you will soon find a bundle of information being available to people on Kishore Kumar. Also, I’m looking for a list of all of Rafi and Manna Dey’s songs and would appreciate it if a neutral music lover could help me with that.
December 23rd, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Mr. Siva - Kishore fan here
Tirade against rafi - by Paramjeet ji, - Kindly do not try to put false points please. My following arguments - could you please answer ?
Some rafi fans specifically (MYK ji - with whom we have frequent arguments) argue to such a level and in such a manner about rafi that it gives impression that no other artist exists other than rafi. I can show numerous comments of this gentleman where in he writes in such a way about rafi, as paramjeet ji says, that rafi is a superman. I am sure, he wants to convey indirectly that other singers are no where close to rafi, which in absolute terms is ridiculous the term I can use.
Rafi fans themselves state that rafi preferred manna dey in classical renditions, in absolute terms, which is cent percent true. Manna de was ahead in classical renditions than mohd. rafi ji.
The natural Voice of Kishore kumar, without much formal training, clearly mesmerises a listener, even astonishing classical musicians, both hindusthani and carnatic, for your information and it is worthwhile mentioning that the following enjoyed by kishore kumar is vast even today.
So when rafi fans project rafi ji as a superman, indirectly showing other legends in a low manner, what is the wrong if paramjeet ji has responded in tit for tat way for such responses.
Another important point.
We are fortunate enough to get enlightened through one Shri Vitthal ji (who is a staunch rafi fan and who prefers rafi over kishore) about Shri Ghantasala ji, the greatest playback singer of telugu and who is undoubtedly more qualified technically and otherwise and who had the perfect voice modulation and command over music, clearly better than rafi. Ghantasala has a unique combination of melody and majesty, and a voice which had rendered topmost high pitches with complete ease, before which even mohd rafi (as rafi fans say much about his high pitch) fall flat. Coming to ghantasala’s classical filmy songs, all other singers including rafi easily falls flat. I have never seen rafi fans, including MYK ji, commenting on Siva Sankari song of ghantasala or Syamala dandakam of ghantasala (as enlightened by Mr Vitthal ji) as rafi fans were quite aware of such complex renditions and rafi or any other singer has no such song anywhere even equivalent to those renditions. In fact, recently we have also come to know that rafi ji immensely respected ghantasala (as greater) and when this topic was discussed with esteemed rafi fan I was referring to here, some turnaround stories were told, only for somehow protecting the slipping of rafi’s greatness factor, which was clearly exposed when some straight queries were raised, and surprisingly which were not replied at all , because the game was over. It is said that ghantasala was an accomplished music director as well and a advanced classical musician and a versatile playback singer, who virtually did not have any competition as long as he lived and who was incidentally a popular singer in tamil as well as kannada languages. The encycopaedia (google) states voice of ghantasala to be the most majestic voice. And Siva ji, personally, I agree with Vitthal ji on all factors above, as I had heard ghantasala pretty well and even many hindusthani and carnatic musicians too hold the same view as well (as is said including rafi ji as well). You will be surprised to note that a kishore fan is writing about ghantasala like this (this is simply based on the discussions we had for long in the divine voice of devotional kishore col. here - you can please refer)
And to me personally siva ji, Kishore kumar had a texture of voice which was nearer to the great ghantasala and I had stated many times that Kishore if technically well qualified would have been nearer to ghantasala, in which situation, it would have been a real tough time to manna as well. But of course, that did not materialise. Still, kishore with his natural clear voice texture, had mesmerised generations, and WAS THE ONLY SINGER WHO HAD SUCCESSFULLY OVERTAKEN RAFI. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT AND EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT IT.
Paramjeet ji, hence is right in his post and he has not made any comments equivalent to the ones made by some rafi fans in rafi forum against other legends, music directors, artists as well. What is this then ?
December 23rd, 2009 at 3:56 pm
Chill out guys!!
My sincere request to the moderators: Close out this thread please.. It has reached its saturation. Better to close something in an amicable enviornment rather than a bitter one..
Good discussions and healthy debates are good, but the line of edge is very thin, you dont even realize when it becomes unhealthy and showing down upon great legends.. Dont get carried away..
December 23rd, 2009 at 10:39 am
Comparison is like pornography. All easily agree its bad. But when asked to rate the best among it, no world wars or universal wars help to choose the so-called best
December 23rd, 2009 at 10:18 am
siva,
Dont play oversmart..
Aap log ridicule nahi karte kishoreji ko mohdrafi.com me?
Kya ridicule kiya hai maine??? Aap logo ne to duniya ka sabse bada joke mara hai ‘mere naina sawan bhado’ ke upar..
Aap ke wahan pe ek Unknow karke member ne kishore ke islaam hone pe ridicule kiya tha.. Woh sab theek hai?
Pancham ko drug addidct kehna theek hai?
Aap ne aap ko sudhaaro pehle phir aana yaha pe.. Articles kyun nahi aate yaha pe woh dekhna site admin ka kaam hai humara nahi
Bunch of hypocrites hai aap sab… Zyada hoshiari yahan pe nahi apne woh akhade mein jaake dikhaao.