An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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December 22nd, 2009 at 11:35 pm
Even though I am a fan of both Mohamed Kumar and Kishore Rafi, I feel Kishore Kumar had an edge that, at any pitch, his voice doesnt loose the manliness. Almost, for any singer, when they go up, their voice will turn a little feminine. But, note Kishore’s voice. You will find the difference. Otherwise, Rafi, Kishore, TMS, KJY and SPB are all all-time greats in their own styles.
December 22nd, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Mr Parmjeet–refer post 1597–thanks for your “positive” note. I thought of getting some good write-up /messages on Kishore’s songs. You have shown your true color by ridiculing some songs of Rafi sahab. Bye for good-that was my first and last post in this site…..
Continue your tirade against Rafi if that helps you in appreciating KK / other singers!!!. Let this article have more than one lac posts and your last written article on KK continue to be dated as of August 2009!!
All the best—one last word–Rafi sahab used to say ” aap sab mere gaane sunto ho lekin mein sirf Manna da ke gaane hi sunta hoon”; KK had only Rafi sahab’s photo in his home. All the legendary male singers had great respect & love for each other-it is we who keep harping on such silly issues.
December 22nd, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Hope it ends here. Better download good songs. Try to listen to them
December 21st, 2009 at 2:11 pm
adarniya krishna sahab,
Yahan pe ‘Divine Voice’ karke bhi ek column hai jahan pe jaankaar log apni knowledge share karte hai.. Wahan pe aaiye, -ve se zyada +ve milega humko..
Kuchh bewakoof log milenge waise wahan pe jo KK-Amitabh ke kuchh gaano ko great bol denge( badi sooni sooni hai, aye tum yaad mujhe, tere mere milan ki yeh raina, rimjhim gire sawan, meet na mila, dekha ek khwab etc.), unko dhyan mat dijiye, apne points rskhiye aur ‘kisko pyar karoo’, ‘’sukoo sukoo’, ‘ lal chhadi’, ‘ dekhiye sahibon’ jaise great gaane se unko counteract kariye.. Koi problem nahi..
Aur haan, ek zaroori baat- wahan pe koi yeh nahi kehta ‘ What if Kishore had sung those songs’…hahahaha..
December 21st, 2009 at 6:21 am
It was apt what Mr Siva had said. It sounds better like any good song. I found someone akin to my feelings - Listen to good Songs sung by anybody and be happy. Think of +ves in all. Leave the -ves. When the real persons had very warm feelings among themselves and mutual respect, why the listeners linger in qualms.
December 18th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Dear Kishore friends,
This is my first post in this site although I keep writing now and then in the Rafi site. I hope you would not mind my intrusion here-I listen to songs by all the legends like Rafi, Kishore, Mukesh, Talat, Manna da ,Mahindra Kapoor but being an ardent Rafi fan he has a special place in my heart.
I find in your site there is a never ending comparison and talk about Rafi vs Kishore and not much articles or posts about the good songs and style of Kishore. What I want to convey basically is why this obsession with Rafi vs Kishore comparison and why not focus more on the subtle nuances of KK’s masterful renditions like “Mere Dil mein aaj kya hai”, Aaa Chal ke tujhe, Chookar mere man ko kiya tune, Dil aaj shayar hai gham aaj nagma hai, Phoolon ke rang se dil ki kalam se tujhko likhi, Teri duniya se hoke majboor chala, Kuch to log kahenge, Pyaar diwana hota hai mastana etc.. Hope from the list of songs I have listed out you would appreciate that I am also a Kishore fan , I can similarly list out my Mukesh favorites, Manna da’s Talat sahab’s etc…
The last article in this site is dated some 5 months ago!! Do Kishore fans do not feel passionate about his songs and style and like to write about such gems , few of which I have mentioned? Rafi fans like me would also like to read about some good articles about Kishore da’s unique style of singing that was so natural.
Hope you do not mind my comments–crux of the issue-please forget about the comparison for some time and keep writing something postive..
December 11th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
The most bewildering of the arguements I see here is that people keep saying Rafi was trained and Kishore was natural.
Ha Ha!
Could you create a voice like Rafi Saab by training? You got to have it naturally. Was it his fault that despite having a meager family income he persisted and got trained? It was the fault on Kishore Da’s part (just for the sake of making this point) if he did not take training despite it being at his disposal. So why blame a person for HIS hard work instead of appreciating it? It can happen only in India that you dislike a person because he did the things the right way.
I am forced to say on the contrary… If Allah had a voice, it would be of Rafi Saab’s.
December 8th, 2009 at 11:53 am
Both rafi and kishore were legends in their own right.
The 50’s & 60’s rafi had influenced and the 70’s & 80’s kishore has influenced. Result : lasting impression continuing for decades with many musical fans.
December 1st, 2009 at 10:23 pm
IF ALLAH HAS A VOICE, HE SINGS LIKE KISHORE KUMAR.
…and people, don’t make email/ids (bots) and post nonsence about Kishore Kumar. We have already seen the trick in youtube and metacafe. Get a life biaatch!
November 30th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Chilly billy jee,
In madhuban me radhika nache re, the alaap rendering singer was Ustaad Niaz Ahmed Khan, who was one of the most important Kirana Gharana vocalist of 20th century. I am not too sure, whether the great rafi could have been able to render the intricate taans in the manner which the ustad had rendered in the “beautiful composition” - madhuban me. Such taans require acute specialisation, which I feel, is possible only for classical vocalists who have advanced training and specialisation. It is for this reason the ustaad sahab might have been used by Naushad saab for the film Kohinoor. Rafi was surely limited in classical compositions having high range and intricate taans, however, he could create magical effect (with his voice) in other areas of such composition types (other than the taans & alaaps requiring higher technical ability)
However, plain melodious songs such as yeh chaand sa roshan chehra, chaudvin ka chaand ho, jo wada kiya woh, etc. (& many more) rafi creates a magical effect which easily mesmerises a listener.
November 29th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Post 1587.
The content of the post and the signature in the end is good enough to justify why the writer chose a false name..
Really tough to write with your own name belonging to a society where even constructive criticism is blasphemy and might end up giving quarantine from the society.
By the way, there is “Madhuban mein radhika naache re” also.
November 29th, 2009 at 12:25 am
kishore da is a gem & if anybody says anything about his versatality then jst listen INA MINA DIKA, DUKHI MAN MERE, KABHI BEKASHI NE MARA, OM SHANTI OM, MERE NAINA SAWAN BHADO & TUM BIN JAAON KAHAN. The last song was sung by both KISHORE DA & rafi & audiance have given their judgement. The combination machoness & mildness was miraculous in KISHORE DA”S voice which makes him best from any other singer in the world. HE IS THE PRIDE FOR INDIA. UNKO KISI BHI SINGER SE KAM DIKHANE KI KOSHIS KARNA APNE DESH KA APMAN HAI. RAFI saab ke guzarne ke baad we apne stage show me unka gana gate the isse zyada mahanta ki misaal pure vishwa me kahin nahi milegi.
November 28th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
Chilly Billy sahab,
Madhuban mein radhika mein sabse mushkil akaratmak taan bhi kisi aur gayak se gawaya gaya tha. Is baare mein humare bhai bandhuein zyada charcha karte nahi.
Aur sudip ji ko boliye ‘pag ghungroo’ wala alaap nahi tha, sargam taan bolte hai usko.. Yehi to problem hai janab rafi bhakton ki, unko lagta hai unhe sab kuchh aati hai magar actually hai sab upar upar se.
November 28th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
sudip Says:
May 28th, 2007 at 1:37 am
6. In “Pagey Ghungroo” (Namak Halal) the alaap had to be rendered by Ustaad Dilshad Khan. There was not a single song in rafi’s lifetime where alaap had to be rendered by someone because Rafi could not do it.
I know I’m a little late but I only chanced upon this thread today:
I respect your knowledge on HFM but your above comment is incorrect. May I refer you to a song from Chacha Chaudhary, Hasna Gaana Mauj Manana in which MM was forced to use another singer for the alaaps as Rafi was unable to render it according to the MD’s specifications. There could be others too, but the above song was the first to spring to mind after reading your post.
PS I am a Rafian…
November 24th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Arghya ji
A humorous post. I appreciate your keen sense of humour at the right point.
Ahmed kutty ji,
Please just do not try to showcase views that one wants to hear rafi song at last breath, or it is a must along with food, shelter etc. These are all exaggerated show pieces. I have seen some posts where in an argument took place between kishore fan and one ms. priya sanyal in rafi forum wherein the rafi fan calls rafi as god himself (nice to hear) and kishore fan replies that please do not call rafi a god and also please do not get excited and build tension, if you get heart attack, rafi cannot save you (even if you call him god or anything else). Really, a humourous reply - (laughs) When questions are raised against exagerrated praises - results are surprising (even if they are false).
Kutty ji - For the sake of only you, I too would like to argue as under and what will be your reply for this?
Have you heard Bhagavad Geetha of ghantasala ? There is no rendition equal to it - I can say frankly. And people hear the rendition even after death of a soul - because it gives the necessary solace and strength to face life. Why I said this, because you state that rafi’s songs are alive only upto the last breath of an individual, whereas ghantasala’s rendition of geetha takes the soul (both living as well as otherwise) even beyond death (because the message is such in that, if we are able to understand)
Next : Kishore’s philosophical songs on life and death give a nice message to individuals who are facing such undesirable periods in life - then what will be the conclusion.
In such cases, how can you simply conclude that rafi stands unmatched in contribution?
That is great, rafi ji is really unmatched as a popular singer but it has to be kept in mind that such “unmatching quality” cannot be at the cost of “other unmatching contributions” from other established legends as well. I hope you properly catch my point & stop making exagerrated comments.
November 24th, 2009 at 11:36 am
Ahmed kutty sahab,
It is really a surprise you have posted here after a long time. Welcome sir. Defaming rafi sahab - Any geniune music lover had done that ? - can you show that - I can show people ‘claiming’ as music lovers defaming other singers (surprisingly without knowing “anything” about that singer) What is that ?
See the most matured comments by Mr. Krishna here - 1576 - wherein he states “none can devalue rafi, ghantasala - even if one tries to do it goes waste” - perfectly true - because I had seen one excellent comment of Mr. B Venkatadri in Rafi forum long back where in he states that if somebody passes any negative or degrading comment for them : it is like a blind man measuring the trunks of two elephants and saying something which he cannot see. I hope you have got the point of this rafi fan.
Why I have said this is because I wanted you to please understand that no genuine music lover passes any uncomfortable comment for any singer or artist - leave accomplished legends like rafi or ghantasala.
In my view, your post has chances for creating a debate which I think would not be correct my friend.
November 24th, 2009 at 9:29 am
AHMED KUTTY ji,
Take my sincere congratulations for such a good post on the legend
Rafi sahab in this Kishore forum. I respect your views. You talked about quarelling on money and ladies with an indirect hint at our guruji- koi baat nahi..
Please remember sir, just like you have come in Kishore site and promote Rafi sahab, there might have been some Kishore fans also who had visited Rafi forum and said that Kishoreda is the best.. How much tolerance to their comments you guys have shown?
The members in Rafi forum are more experienced, elderly and active than the members in Kishore forum- the day you get the “tolerance” factor also in your kitty leaving apart the abusing and foul mouthing which we guys are currently doing, your forum will get more respect.
My twopence here.. And I have talked with many Rafians., Wont name, but last evening itself I had a talk with a great Rafian from Bangalore(you also know him), and he also shared the same feeling about the intolerance of Rafi fans towards the fans of other singers and he said for this reason he also has reduced his visits to Rafi forum.
I hope my points will be taken in a sporting way.. If you guys start abusing me again for writing this, then I think you guys can never change
November 23rd, 2009 at 5:56 pm
when the songs of “aradhana”become superhits,one of the
companions of kk told that “kishoreda ne rafi saab ko chutti
kar dhiya” and the same time kishoreda slapped the guy
and told him “what you know about music?i am a fan of
rafi saab”.
i think this slapping by kishoreda is meant for each and
everybody who are trying to defame rafi ssab.
it is an interesting thing that during 70s panchamda had
given more chances to kishoreda than rafi saab and
it is rafi saab who got national award and filmfare award
for the same song “kya hua tera waadaa” for which the
music director was panchamda himself!
as far versatality is concerned no singer is near to rafi
saab.it is difficult ot believe that rafi saab sings “oh duniya
ke rakwaale” as well as “sar jo tera jukrayaa” for johny
walker.
it is difficult to maintain a decent life especilly if we are
in the field of art.rafi saab lead a decent life without
quarrelling for ladies or for money.
as far as fans are concerned nobody is there to match
rafi saab as his fans are treating him more than their
family members.eventhough the media had tried to
sideline rafi saab, the die hard fans of rafi saab are
trying their level best to keep alive rafi saab and his
songs.some of his fans even say after the basic needs of
human being such as food,clothing and shelter,rafi saab’s
somgs are a must.some fans says during their last breath
they want to hear the songs of rafi saab!
where we can see such a passion,such an affection,such a
dedication even forgetting their everything for the cause
of rafi saab.i think the motivation for “rafians” are from the
“diehard critics of rafi saab”.
November 1st, 2009 at 8:38 pm
Exceptions are there for every thing in life. So is the case with Kishore - Amit combo songs. Few songs can be named as done by arghyaji. Here I was comparing this combo with Kishore’s songs for other heroes. Somehow couldn’t like some. At the same time his songs for Rajesh khanna are really good. My last sentence is always - Listen to good songs sung by anybody. Be Happy. Songsters are few, listeners are many. Opinions are plenty.
November 1st, 2009 at 11:38 am
Krishna ji..
You meant “lose of originality” as “dragging of voice forcing you to stay away”.. Your statement is still not clear. Do you mean there was a “lack of voice modulation”?? If that is the thing you mean, then also I would beg to disagree,, What better example of voice modulation can be given in the teaching of playback singing than “Chhu kar mere man ko kiya tune kya ishara”?? Do you feel that song was dragged in voice?? I sincerely dont think so. Then there is “Badi sooni sooni hai zindagi yeh zindagi”, where Kishore gives his voice a deep texture(rather than heavy texture which he generally did for Amitabh,looking at Amitabh’s own voice base and nuances) is very unique as very few people had that ability to sound “alcoholic melancholy” that way. His expression in grief in “Manzilein apni jagah hai” and ” Kisi baat par main kisis se khafa hoon”( both picturized on Amitabh at around the same time) has 180 degree contradiction.. 99% playback singers would have emoted those two songs similarly (same time, same hero, same theme and same alcoholic sadness), but Kishore made an awesome switch in expressions, one portraying “lack of company” and the other “lack of love”… This is Kishore Kumar for you-Krishna ji.. He is still a lesson to the playbackers,,
Now, if you mean “voice dragging” as to those songs which were fun and loud like “Mach gaya shor saari nagri” or “Khaaike pan banaraswala” or ” De de pyar de”- which also constitute a good share of Kishore-Amitabh combo, Krishna ji, this always happen to a successful singer-actor combo.. Rafi-Shammi-another successful combo- also had their fair share of loud songs thanks to Shankar Jaikishen in the late 60s.. Now, you may put it like this that “You love the loudness of late 60s more than late 70s ” or ” Kisko pyar karoon kaise pyar karoo is not loud for you but Are deewano mujhe pehchaano is loud” then also it is all right, provided you put a IMHO in a capital letter.
Regrading supremacy, even if we forget the commercial and populairty part of it, please visit the discussion forum of “Divine voice of devotional Kishore”- many things are being discussed there.
Thanks.
November 1st, 2009 at 8:38 am
krishna ji..
supremes kaun hai? Kishoreda khud na hi supreme hai balki kaafi aur logon se behetar bhi hai,, krupaya hamare deivine voice topic ko dekhe… Kaafi achhi baatein ho rahi hai waha par.
November 1st, 2009 at 6:48 am
Dear Krishna sir,
He loses originality? How and where? Please give suitable examples.
Regards,
Mast Mast
November 1st, 2009 at 6:11 am
He loses his originality when he sings for Big B - I meant he loses his flair, voice drags forcing us to get away from listening. it is not the loss of mimicking I meant. Anyway they are the only numbers + very few I don’t like. There are many great songs of Kishore. But we can not compare with supremes.
October 29th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Mr. M Krishna-1572 post.
You said ” kishore Kumar: His is unique talent. he is also good at mimicking. He loses his originality when he sings for Big B”
I think it is the prerequirement of a playback singer that he should sound like the hero on the screen and not like his original voice. That is why Kishore Kumar is unparallelled in playback singing. He could not only enact the mood and theme of a song but also the nuances of the actor on screen.. Amitabh, Dev Anand, Rajesh Khanna, Sanjeev Kumar, Randhir Kapoor- for all of them Kishore used to adjust his voice accordingly to sound like them or enact like them.. That is a very special quality Krishna ji, it is in fact the strength of Kishore and not drawback.
October 29th, 2009 at 6:45 am
Some people say for the sake of satisfying their egos and their only point is to score a point in excess of others without validating their version.
Singers come and go, leaving listeners contesting under shadow.
Popularity is different from talent. All talented need not be popular and all popular songsters are not highly talented
Each era had a singer or singers. Each era had different taste. Awareness is on high as we move forward.
World noticed India’s presence lately, and started sharing Awards - Oscar for Rehman. We had great music directors in the past who thrived on classical scores which were audible. But none of them had scope for Oscars, as India was no where in the popularity charts / reckoning in the World then. But that doesn’t devalue great Music Directors of yesteryears.
Similarly none can devalue Rafi, Ghantasala - even if one tries to do it goes waste. At the same time we can’t underestimate Kishores of next generation to protect the sentiments of many listeners who do not try to accept the truth / reality.
My only point - Listen to good songs sung by anybody. Be Happy.