An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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May 14th, 2009 at 6:18 am
Naveen: thanks very much for the story on Chupke Chupke. I was not aware of that. When there’s talk of a “complete” version, is this referring to the version with some dialogue between Rafi & Kishore or is it referring to something else? I would think the latter. The opening dialogue between Rafi & Kishore is not something that I would expect to be picturized. If there is an “extended” version of Sa Re Ga Ma with more parts from Rafi then that would be great news. I see no reason for them to destroy the extended version and just keep the truncated version. This is a prized song in that it is the only Rafi-Kishore duet from an MD who knew very well how to exploit the talents of both singers and tasted astronomical success with both. I look forward someday to unearthing that version.
May 14th, 2009 at 4:40 am
Hi Surajit,
Those were some interesting posts you made. Please stop apologizing. Just speak what’s on your mind. And remember that this is all in good spirits. Please put a big IMO in front of every line.
Surajit wrote: “And this, to me, shows up in their singing. When Rafi sings a song, every syllable in the song is sung as it should be - given the lyrics, the situation, the mood etc. Every syllable and word in the lyric is pronounced perfectly. Further, the words are either whispered or sung with authority or sung floatingly/dreamily as the situation demands, as the mood of the song demands. The voice is modulated to suit the song. The degree to detail is just amazing, if not mind blowing.”
>> I could not have written it better myself. Thank you for this. Rafi combined the best of both worlds as a genius and a professional. It’s like Michaelangelo seeing the finely chiseled statue that he will uncover in a block of marble. It takes a genius to actually see the scope for that much detail.
>>It takes an even greater genius to execute that detail and yet remain convincingly natural. Rafi had the God gifted voice that could modulate to such detail and serve as the medium. He had the God gifted judgment and expression to put the right emotions behind individual words. When Michaelangelo saw that statue in the marble, he didn’t sit there and think all day and then it showed up. It came naturally to him as he was sculpting. Likewise Rafi’s emotions came naturally to him (we’ll elaborate on this later).
>>It’s because of this detailed approach and talent that Rafi could express several different emotions in a single line. Kishore can express a lot of different emotions within a song but not often in a single line. “Meri Beeghi Beeghi Si” and “Badi Sooni Sooni Hai” are two outstanding exceptions. This amount of detail is very enjoyable for me. I’ve said in the past that Rafi – Kishore duets are not good for comparison. Nevertheless, for illustration I’ll point out to “Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara”, “Hum Premi Prem Karna Jaane”, or “Badaltey Rishtey” as songs where Rafi adds detail behind individual syllables and Kishore does not (at least to the same extent). It makes a big difference to me and I prefer the results of Rafi’s approach much more. You lay this all out very nicely.
>>It is this attention to detail that allows Rafi to maintain separate genres and even sub-genres. Rafi has 10 different, effective ways of expressing a romantic song depending on the circumstance. He has an equally different number of ways for expressing sadness. This approach gives variety to his repertoire and avoids monotony. Bored of those high pitch songs that MDs made Rafi sing? Just tune into “Yahan Main Ajnabi Hoon” or “Din Dhal Jaye”. Feeling lonely? Tune into “Hui Shaam Unko Kaayal”. Angry and want to outwardly express yourself? “Dil Jo Na Keh Sakah”. We can come up with more. It’s not just that the situations or expressions are different (which you can easily come up with for Kishore too) but Rafi’s approach to the songs are all together different. Of course Kishore has sub varieties too but not like Rafi! Part of this is due to Kishore’s career peak being in a time where MDs were not as rich but that doesn’t change what actually happened (or didn’t happen).
>>When Kishore tries to sing softly in romantic songs in “Dil Kya Kare” or “Hamen Tumse Pyar” (Kudrat) , he seems to be working to tone down that naturally thundering voice of his. Kishore’s thundering voice cannot be the voice of a common, poor villager like Rafi’s is in “Gharibhon Ka Jeena Hai Bhi Jeena”. When Kishore sings “Geet Gaata Hoon Main” he sounds like a sad God. His expressions are perfect but that baritone voice is too mighty for you to feel sorry for. Just as Sudip explained to me before, it’s like if you want someone to play a pensioner you go for AK Hangal not a 6 ft 2 Amitabh Bachchan. Rafi can be AK Hangal in one song and transform to an angry, mighty Shammi Kapoor in Shalimar. When Rafi tries to sound heavy and strong, he is able to with the harmonic resonance in his voice (thanks Smitha!). His voice type is intrinsically versatile in that sense. Kishore’s “true toned” voice has its advantages for the low scale songs but overall it is just not as versatile as Rafi’s vocals. Furthermore, Kishore’s lesser attention to details behind individual words in the songs makes him less versatile and less able to differentiate between the sub genres like Rafi does. Rafi is able to do these things because of his God given talent, personality, and approach.
>>Rafi was a saintly human being who sang straight from the heart. When he sings “Sukh Ke Sab Saathi” or “Tu Ne Mujhe Bulaya Sherawaliyon” – he sings with genuine respect & devotion from the bottom of his heart. When Rafi sings “Ab Kya Misaal Doon” he sings with true closeness, LOVE, and devotion. My point here is that Rafi did not have to work for his expression but instead they came naturally to him.
>>Look at this live video or Rafi & Asha rehearsing with OP Nayyar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCyU2cNXjCs&feature=related
>>Just look at Rafi’s face as he sings his lines. He sings with love that comes naturally and easily to him. He was a saintly personality. He’s have a great time in that video. In sharp contrast, Asha has a stoic, reserved expression on her face. This difference shows in their singing of that duet.
>> This saintly nature of Rafi saves him even in instances where he goes, as his critics would say, “over the top”. The reason is because his emotions are never manufactured. If he broke down in “Baabul Ki Dua” – it was because he remembered giving away his daughter a few days earlier. That was honest expression. It was real. Of course, I can understand if someone is uncomfortable. Rafi’s voice in “Maa Tujhe Dhoondhon Kahan” was not at its peak to handle the high pitch as smoothly as it did before. I can still enjoy it because the emotions are real and trustworthy.
>>The above talents and traits are something that no amount of training is going to emulate. Rafi was born with them.
“Kishore is the more natural and musically gifted. He had the flair that a genuine artist has, while Rafi seemed to work for his effects. I didn’t just mean that in terms of their technical capabilities, though there is a case for Kishore in that too. By this, I don’t mean that Rafi is not a genius or that Kishore is not a true professional. What I am focusing on is the aspect of their musical personality that is relatively the more dominant.”
>> Rafi was more talented because he had the more versatile voice, the more versatile expression of emotions. When I say stuff like this, there’s actually proof for Rafi’s versatility in his accomplishments. Of course, you and I have listened to the same songs (Shammi-SJ-Rafi) and come up with different conclusions / opinions/ interpretations. I can respect that but I have laid out my views anyway (just as you have).
*Both* the true professional and genius were *very prominent* aspects of Rafi. He could be one or the other or often BOTH. The sum of the parts were far greater than the individual parts in Rafi’s case. I won’t try to allocate or break it down by the percentage and then say that one was dominant. As you pointed out yourself, Rafi is spontaneous and natural singing for OP Nayyar or SD Burman. Those two were major phases in Rafi’s great career. Furthermore, dozens of other MDs exploited Rafi’s spontaneity. Anil Biswas is one of them. I absolutely love “Bhaghwan Bhi Kush Kush”. Rafi is so funny, and at ease! At the same time, he has that attention to detail that comes *naturally* to him and he modulates his voice for the comic parts and sweetens it for the rest. I just love the spontaneity and flair that Rafi shows in the title song of “Choti Si Mulaqat”. When Asha sings, “YaYaYaYa” she sings it each time exactly alike every time. You could record her first “YaYaYah” and just play that again. Where’s the spontaneity in the antics? I just love how Rafi keeps retorting her with his antics and the flavor he puts in his singing.
>>Apart from OP Nayyar & SD Burman there’s Roshan with the title song of “Vallah Kya Baat Hai”, Madan Mohan with an outstanding Rafi – Kishore triet “Mere Jaisa Nahin Milega”, Shamji Ganshamji for Gaal Gulabi Nain Sharabi”, Laxmi-Pyare for “Hai Shukar Ke Tu Hai Ladka, etc. The list goes on and on. Rafi had so much of both that you laid out above. I don’t agree with you in suggesting that one part was less apparent. Then of course Rafi brings out the best of both worlds in songs like ‘Main Nighahen Tere Chehre Se”, “Yehi Hai Tamanaa” or “Aaj Ki Raat Mere Dil Ke”. The latter is Naushad song and it is practiced and perfect as you’d point out, but Rafi’s expressions are straight from the heart. It is natural *yet* perfect.
“Also, it’s well known that Rafi liked to rehearse himself to his satisfaction, and therefore didn’t like last minute changes to the tune or lyrics. A truly consummate professional.”
>>I have to wonder what it was like for Rafi in the 60s. He’s rehearsing at Naushad’s house and then drives over to OP’s. Then he goes over to Chitragupta’s. The next day he shows up sharp for recording with Madan Mohan and then leaves for Shankar Jaikishan and then finishes the day with SD Burman. Rafi must have been very good and fast at adapting to different kinds of situations / compositions in order to maintain that output (and quality) and variety in his prime. Although I agree that Rafi preferred it in the above way, I am sure that if a last minute change did need to be made, Rafi adapted quickly.
“Under Naushad, Rafi was too *methodical*. Keeping aside the joke that Kishore is not *worthy* to sing under Naushad, I think that *that* is the main reason for Kishore and Naushad not teaming up. Naushad was too *methodical*, too much *by the book*, to allow Kishore the freedom to put in his spontaneity in a song. SDB and RDB perfectly understood that and used it very well.”
>>Rafi was a multi-faceted singer and a genius, underrated personality. Rafi’s approach, whether it is methodical for Naushad or spontaneous for OP, is going to be a function of the MD’s demands & circumstances of the song.
>>Remember Surajit, you have to compare oranges to oranges I will not compare Rafi having to practice extensively with Naushad to Kishore picking up tunes quickly for RD Burman. Naushad is going to be very strict, very methodical about how he wants you to sing the song. The intrinsic nature of Naushad’s working style and compositions require you to practice like a true consummate professional. On the other hand, if Kishore sings how he wants and makes changes, RD is open ended and will accept it with pure joy (what a great man he was). Expressing profound, deep emotions and singing in a golden voice is going to come easy for someone as gifted as Kishore. On the other hand, if you want to compare an orange with an orange, compare Rafi – OP with Kishore – RD or Rafi & KK with SD Burman. OP often mentioned how Rafi was fast at picking up tunes. That’s because Rafi was allowed to! Same with SD Burman and a song like “Mera Man Tera Pyaasa”. On the other hand, a song like ‘Man Tadpat Hari Darshan” is naturally going to force you to practice and take time in picking up.
>>In the past you’ve compared “Koi Hamdam Na Raha” to “Man Tadpat Hari Darshan”. Scale range alone is not a basis for good comparisons. Think of the many constraints the latter bhajan had. It may not require a voice control, voice quality, or expression that is harder or better than Kishore’s song. However it is indeed going to be “harder” because you have so many rules to follow. If you don’t follow those rules then Naushad will not be happy with you! In Kishore’s case, he as the MD made the rules That’s a mark of him being a great, complete artist. It’s not logical to compare the two songs.
>>Now I want you to think about the consequences of not making Naushad happy. If Rafi the versatile genius did not adapt and take a *methodical* approach for Naushad, Naushad would NOT have mentored him. Naushad would have ignored Rafi like he did with Kishore. Nevermind the immortal gems like “Insaaf Ka Mandir” that we’d have missed out on. In a cruel, whimsical industry, Rafi could have suffered an injustice like Kishore and gone unappreciated in the industry. From this viewpoint, you have to consider what an advantage it was for Rafi to have both abilities in being methodical and spontaneous. I’ll be the first to admit that the great Rafi was fortunate to find MDs who could make use of his talents (and vice versa too of course). I do agree with you about Naushad’s limitation for not working with Kishore – it makes me sad especially given the respect Kishore showed for Naushad.
>>At the same time, I agree that Kishore’s ability to pick up songs in his style was jaw dropping. Did he really decide to sing “Man Re Tu Kahe” hours before the concert? Wow. It’s a pity that the quality (or lack of it) of the recording does not do his rendition justice. Of course, Kishore sang that song in his own unique way and I loved it.
“Kishore is somewhat different. Kishore, like most artists, hated rehearsals and practice. This is very well known and was the cause of headaches to so many MDs.”
>> This is unfortunate too because it may have contributed to the lack of proper appreciation for Kishore before the 70s. As a side note, I do buy the argument that Kishore was somewhat unavailable as he was in his acting career. If I understand correctly, a lot of the few songs Kishore sang before 1969, were actually big big hits on the Binaca Geet Mala. There was demand for Kishore. So I don’t know why Kishore himself didn’t follow up or the MDs tried to exploit his demand as a singer even then. Wasn’t “Mere Mehboob Qayamat Hogi” #4 in 1964 and a song from Chalti Ka Naam Gaadi #1 in the late 50s etc? Anyway, I won’t view Kishore’s whimsical nature as something charming. It was what it was and it had its cost.
“It’s almost like he feels what he is singing. That’s why it was very important for him to be *in the right mood* when it came to sing a song. Then the feeling came spontaneously, naturally. he would only have taken up the song if he really felt that devotion, and then the listener can just feel it.”
>>Same applies for Rafi! Rafi also feels what he is singing. He gets into the character and expresses the persona. Am I wrong to say this for a song like Huye Hain Tum Pe Aashique? Rafi doesn’t need to be whimsical.
“He couldn’t care less about the pronounciation - singing “is tara” for “is tarah”, “khaab” for “khwaab”
>>That’s fine and all but if you are singing a bhajan or trying to cater to a particular region of people – it adds to your credibility to pronounce properly. So if Rafi pays attention to his pronunciation in “Man Tadpat Hari Darshan” – it’s very appropriate and almost required.
“Both were spontaneous in their own way, but Kishore was spontaneous in a zany, almost crazy way, in an eccentric way which is very hard to replicate. “
>>I agree. You see the extra zaniness of Kishore in “Chal Shuru Ho Jaa”. Rafi sings very well, captures the mood, and is spontaneous. However, I just love the falsetto chiding Kishore pulls towards the end of the song. OTOH, I still prefer Rafi’s “best of both worlds” approach as he mixes his spontaneity with his careful attention to detail.
“in Rafi’s case, we will never know how he would have been if he had no training in music”
>> And we don’t need to know. What actually happened is what’s important.
May 13th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
Arghyaji, (your 1520 and 1518)
First of all I am equidistant from Toufique bhai as I am from anyone else here.I may have read more of your posts than Toufique Sahibs. Both of you have good counter points. As far as my asking the question about Kishore’s own movies in context of his partnerships with MDs is concerned, I ask that to put things into right perspective and nothing else.
My take is that both Naushad and SDB are doyens of Hindi Film Music.They have inspired generations of composers,singers and music lovers.
As far as SDB is concerned ,HF music lover are indebted to him for his terrific use of all the major singers. Hindi Film Music would be robbed of some of its best if SDB’s partnership with any of the major singers such as Rafi,Kishore,Lata,Asha,Talat,Hemant,Manna,Shamshad or even for that matter Mukesh (even for a handful of numbers) hadn’t happened. If some of his compositions were inspired from folk but not duly credited maybe that is regrettable (the credited part and not the inspired part) but then who else but SDB could have fine-tuned and value added to those tunes making them popular around the entire nation and having left indelible mark on people’s minds and souls.
Signing off for now…Keep the debate going…
Thanks
Naveen
May 13th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Surajit wrote: “Rafi reportedly was so stunned when he was summoned for the shout “Yahoo” that they had to bring in a Prayagraj for that utterance. Similarly, Shankar of the SJ duo was the one who shouted “Ayyayya Sooku Sooku” every time during the “Sooku Sooku” song.”
>>It is perfectly understandable that Rafi was stunned. That cacophonous “Yahoo” scream caught the attention of the masses but from a musical perspective it was awful. It lost SJ a lot of listeners such as you. I like Chahe Koi Mujhe Junglee Kahe very much for Rafi’s singing alone but *not* the Yahoo part. I love the resounding punch, the energy, the emotions, and voice control Rafi displays. He really captures and adds to Shammi’s persona. This is far more important to me than not wanting to do a cacophonous shout. On this ground, I cannot agree with your opinion that this song is an example where Rafi is uncomfortable singing for Shammi. I feel quite the opposite.
>>Rafi did go on to shout out the “Yahoo” part himself in his numerous live concerts. In these live versions, Rafi’s “Yahoo” shout had a pleasant harmonic resonance. It was not cacophonous like the assistant’s shout in the original studio recording.
>>You can argue that the “Aayaaya Sooku Sooku” is important for the persona of the character / song but I think it is trivial. What’s far more important in this song is Rafi’s sweet voice and expression that capture and *add* to Shammi’s persona.
“I thought that the boisterous effect that was brought in for songs like “Badan pe sitare” or “Chakke mein chakka” seemed more forced than natural”
>>That forced, exaggerated effect is indeed there on both songs. I see where you are coming from. However, it is done purposely and I’m familiar with that antic. He’s toying around with Vyjanthimala in Prince and clowning around with children in the second song. There are variations of this kind of antic. Sometimes when children visit my house, I raise my voice in an clearly exaggerated but light manner to playfully get their attention. I’ve seen variations in comedy movies too. So that “forced than natural” that you see is not because Rafi is uncomfortable. Further, consider how Rafi makes confident, smooth transitions in emotions to the words right after the loud lines: “Lapate Huye O jaane tamanna kidhar ja rahi ho; Zara paas aayo, to chain aa jaaye; Zara Paas Aayo to chain aa jaaye”.
>>Two Rafi –SJ solos of Pyar Hi Pyar: “Dekha Hai Teri Aankhon Mein” and “Abhi Salamat” are also boisterous and loud yet Rafi is so comfortable in singing them. “Main Jat Yamla Pagla Deewana” from LP is probably just as boisterous as Shammi songs and Rafi is extremely comfortable and awesome singing it in his punchy voice that he modulates to give it a rural flavor. Some effects / antics click with the audience while others don’t.
As for “Evening in Paris”, I ask you to re-listen to “Raat Ke Humsafar”. It’s one of my favorite. Rafi & Asha’s singing is heavenly, SJ’s orchestration is magnificent, and it is picturized nicely too.
There’s a different niche for different types of songs. I prefer the variety so I appreciate SJ’s change in the 60s. I personally would get bored of listening again and again to just tranquil, melodious songs. Sometimes I need the energy and mayhem of a boisterous song.
Lata and Anil Biswas’ “man me kisii kii priit basaale” is a melodious tune and all but I’d rather prefer the melody AND energy of SJ’s “Ae Chand Ki Zebai Tu” from Choti Si Mulaqat. Different tunes for different folks!
May 13th, 2009 at 9:15 pm
there is two link,,both kishore kumar And mohmmad Rafi singing
Main kaun hoon
plz check it,,,,u`ll enjoy difference in the voice
kishore kum http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5kLdq5TwV0&feature=related
Rafi saab http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r44os8FMTGQ&feature=related
May 13th, 2009 at 10:29 am
And for Suaraiyya, Toufiqe saab, you said “she flourished under Naushad”.. One of your friend, Mr.Navees, always asks for “whether Kishore was the hero in the movie to which a great song of him belonged”.. So, in that same style of questions, I ask you very politely “how many songs of Suraiyya for Nauhsad were in the movies where she was not a heroine”…????
?????????
Even if the answer is “one”, I would be more than haapy to appreciate Naushad’s “patronage of young talent”!!!!
Give me a break!! Also, lest someone think ” i sound like a kishore fan supporting SDB” here, let me tell you 3 out of my top 5 most favourite SDB songs are by Rafisaab, they are , “Saathi na koi manzil”, “Din dhal jaye” and “Hum bekhudi mein tumko”…Thank you..
May 13th, 2009 at 10:22 am
For Mukesh and Rafi- definitely he was not a “mentor”, but still I gave you their example to show SDB’s appreciation “to new talents” without any biasedness…
May 13th, 2009 at 10:20 am
Toufique
Hmm.. sounds quite obsessive but I dont think it is a “quiz contest” to demean SD here.. Anyways regarding your “Tere ghar ke samne” question, I woud like to add:
1. Yeh tanhayi haye re haye by Lata is taken from a Bengali folk song.
2. Tu kaha yeh bata is nasheeli raat mein is also a Bengali folk song.
3. Sun le tu dil ki sada is also taken from traditional Bengali song.
Among all thse, if you call “plagiarism”, I would call only the first one out of the three, as it sounds very identical to Rabindranath Tagore’s “amar sonar harin chai”, the antara of the bong getting translated to mukhda in hindi..
Anyways, regarding your claim of using many “unknown” singers by Naushad like Shyam Kumar , I would also give you a list from SDB:
1. Arun Kumar Chatterjee used in Samar(1950)
2. Geeta Roy in Do Bhai(1947)
3. Kishore Kumar in Eight Days(1946)
4. Mohammed Rafi in Do Bhai(1947)- remember the year, better than Naushad using Mukesh…
5. Manohar Udaas in Abhimaan(1973)
6. Hemlata in Jyoti(1969)
7. Anuradha Paudwal in Abhimaan(1973)
8. Mukesh in Vidya(1947)- earlier than Naushad, remember
9. Manna De in Mashal(1950)- could Naushad identified this talent earlier before “Upar gagan vishal”? and even after, could Naushad exploit this classy singer more, coming out of biasedness?
all these singers became more “established” than Shyam Kumar and Uma Devi- Point No.1 and all of them remained indebted to SD Burman for putting their career on track.. Point No.2. So, the “identification of talent” was always better for SDB than Naushad- if this is the point of your appreciation. Only “giving a chance to sing” and then “never turning back to them”( do u want me to remind you what Naushad did to Mukesh?) does not make you “a promoter of talent” my dear friend.. “persistence” and “grooming” anre also required which naushad did only for Rafi and SDB did for more than 2 generations of singers..
Come out of self-obsession and see the truth..
May 13th, 2009 at 4:38 am
Dear Bose (post 1516)
A clever post indeed. How you selectively chose certain parts of our discussion and that too out of context is quite commendable? But
a lie continues to remain a lie no matter how hard we try to make truth
out of it. Allow me to reply to you posts.
You wrote:
For example, when I said that Mukesh was the star singer of the movie “Andaz” in 1949, you said that Rafi was his equal in that movie because even though Rafi had only 1 song (”Yun to aapas mein”), it was a hit song and so the credit should be divided between the two. You said the same about “Barsaat” and “Awaara”. I replied that that is something I disagree with and we discontinued that line of arguement.
My Response:
I never said and will never say that we should divide the credit equally between Mukesh and Rafi in the above named movies. Mukesh is a lead
singer in these but my line of argument is that Rafi has important contributions nonetheless in these movies besides his own big ticketed movies where he was the lead singer. Pray explain from a rational point of view how this line of reasoning is wrong. Go to youtube and check that Rafi’s Mela song which has more than 50K views .It was a hit then and a hit now. I again reiterate that these were Mukesh dominated movies and he gets the most credit but why are you shying away from giving credit to Rafi. And finally how come Mukesh comes into picture,weren’t you supposed to support your Kishore statement about MD preferring his over Rafi in early fifties.
You write:
Also, I am more concerned about the prized compositions while you were just counting the number of movies/songs that the singers participated in. If you look at the musical compositions from 1950-1954, Talat was the first choice of MD’s other than Naushad. For most MDs other than Naushad, where Rafi would have “Baap bada na bhaiya” or “Paise ki lottery” or something, it would be Talat who would be rendering “Mohobbat me aese zamane bhi aaye”. No disputes over Rafi’s volume of songs or versatility - but certainly quality matters.
My response: Who is the gold measure to evaluate prized compositions and quality standards? First I am glad you have narrowed it from 50-54. After all discussions there has been some take away. Earlier you used to extend this time period to 57. When you use the phrase other Naushad you are taking away a sizable chunk of prized compositions. A Naushad is early fifties was commercially and artistically equal to most of them put together. By the way have you heard Rafi for SJ, Husnlan Bhagatram, Ghulam Haider, CR, S N Tripathi, N Dutta,S Mohinder. Any thoughts on a song like Watan Ki Raah Pe (48) etc in that era. I would love to point you to some of finest non-Naushad Rafi songs of that time but let it be some another day. Finally how come Talat came into picture .I thought you wanted to educate folks on Kishore’s early fifties excursions. (Well by this time I should realise that you drop names at your convenience)
You write
Biswas, Roshan, Sajjad Hussain, SDB, Salil all had more prized compositions with Kishore than with Rafi.
My response: Now you are getting to business almost at the end of your email. Can you for the benefit of everyone let’s us know the body of work here.How many of these collaborations are really prized, how many takers did they have then and now, and how much of cultural or commercial impact these collaborations had. Please confine to period of 1950 thru 1954 and also it would be good to know , how many were Kishore’s own movies.
You write:
It was with “Uran Khatola” (where Rafi became the permanent voice of Dilip Kumar) and “Aar Paar” (OPN’s first major hit movie) in late 1954 that Rafi started his climb to the top. Finally, Roshan (around 1955), and SDB, with “Devdas” and “Pyaasa” in 1956-1957 made him the top singer.
What a divine logic, wah wah maza aa gaya. Rafi was Dilip’s voice right from their very early hit in Jugnu (47) , Shaheed (48), Aan , Dedaar,Amar just to name a few blockbusters. If going solo for these revolutionary movies can be ignored then perhaps Talat output that you cherish can be too. Well Talat and Mukesh sang for Dilip intermittently during the same period , Mukesh in Mela and Andaz , and Talat in early fifties. Even after Udan Khatola , Mukesh sang for him in biggies like Yahudi and Madhumati. It is only from late fifties though late sixties that Rafi can be considered his permanent voice, if by permanent where no one else sings for the actor. And then MK chimes in every now and then, along with Rafi and also Kishore sang for him in a movie.
Roshan and to a lesser extent SDB partnership with Rafi helped them little more that it did Rafi although overall the benefit is mutual .SDB gained lot of critical acclaim for Pyaasa something that had eluded him for scores like Chahe Koi Khush Ho,Ae Mere Topi et al (btw one of my most fav songs of 50’s ) and Roshan hit the A list and his career got resurrected by Rafi in Barsaat Ki Raat.
Thanks
Naveen
May 12th, 2009 at 11:58 pm
Hi Naveen,
I didn’t leave mohdrafi.com as a result of *losing*. Here too, I am only debating with Smitha and Manish. At least, they have the decency to argue with the points that I am making instead of resorting to flaming as most of you guys did over there.
And, I am sorry, I don’t remember you “busting” any of my arguments. We disagreed on what were the hit songs from a movie, and I saw no reason to continue that line when we couldn’t even agree on the premises of the arguement.
For example, when I said that Mukesh was the star singer of the movie “Andaz” in 1949, you said that Rafi was his equal in that movie because even though Rafi had only 1 song (”Yun to aapas mein”), it was a hit song and so the credit should be divided between the two. You said the same about “Barsaat” and “Awaara”. I replied that that is something I disagree with and we discontinued that line of arguement.
Also, I am more concerned about the prized compositions while you were just counting the number of movies/songs that the singers participated in. If you look at the musical compositions from 1950-1954, Talat was the first choice of MD’s other than Naushad. For most MDs other than Naushad, where Rafi would have “Baap bada na bhaiya” or “Paise ki lottery” or something, it would be Talat who would be rendering “Mohobbat me aese zamane bhi aaye”. No disputes over Rafi’s volume of songs or versatility - but certainly quality matters.
Looking at the top MDs during that time period from 1950-1954, Naushad, Husnlal-Bhagatram, CR, and SJ had more songs with Rafi, though CR was a known fan of Kishore.
Biswas, Roshan, Sajjad Hussain, SDB, Salil all had more prized compositions with Kishore than with Rafi.
It was with “Uran Khatola” (where Rafi became the permanent voice of Dilip Kumar) and “Aar Paar” (OPN’s first major hit movie) in late 1954 that Rafi started his climb to the top. Finally, Roshan (around 1955), and SDB, with “Devdas” and “Pyaasa” in 1956-1957 made him the top singer.
May 12th, 2009 at 8:26 am
This is my last post here as I find it pretty time consuming. However i would post in the mohdrafi.com occasionally. Hope our paths cross again!
Apart from using Saigal, Naushad used a couple of Saigal-type singers (singers in the traditional-mould). Here are a couple of examples. Shyam Kumar is pretty close to Kishore kumar (no comparison in terms of contributions, just the voice-type). Also there were a couple of singers in his previous films. Rafi was the first voice who was significantly different from Saigal (for females Lata was the first singer who was quite different from her female peers).
Baras gayi raam (?, Stationmaster, 1942)
Is pyar ne rahat se (?, Stationmaster, 1942)
(Shyam kumar, Rattan, 1944)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISx16o3rIPo&feature=PlayList&p=4F8D020535E9452D&index=57
(Shyam Kumar, Dillagi, 1949)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqHxNTjY_Vc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyRRm3pMo6I&feature=related
(Surendra, Anmol Ghadi, 1946)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pThukkbxwuU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p98qyx72KRs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDxc3RTPoyw
(Karan Diwan, Rattan, 1944)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23ZoBBeGgVA&feature=PlayList&p=4F8D020535E9452D&index=54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzVqsq5ZEFg&feature=PlayList&p=4F8D020535E9452D&index=56
May 12th, 2009 at 4:33 am
Mr. Dutta,
What made you think that I need to read the book written by some Mr. Anantharaman to comment on SDB? I did not read the book. Bangalis who listen to Bangla songs don’t need that. And if you are familiar with the folk songs of Tripura/Comilla, you can find a lot. And that Manna Dey interview was published in Anandalok in the mid 1990s. I have a question for you. 3 songs in ‘Tere gharke samne’ are based on folk tunes. Can you identify them? Also, if possible name the original songs (as you did in post 1491). For knowledgeable persons I have nothing but appreciations from my heart.
The Aradhana story is debatable. Even if you are right when orchestration changes, the style changes a lot. Did I say that OP didn’t do it? And the incident about Roshan – that’s not plagiarism. I expected the same from SDB. He should have taken permission from the copyright holders. He should have acknowledged it in the movies.
What you said about raga is not true. Raga is like grammar/rules, you can play with them. Many Rabindrasangeets are based on ragas. I was surprised that you tried to justify SDB’s plagiarism. That was really unexpected. Can you tell me 10-15 Naushad songs based on Malkosh and Darbari Kanada? I would really appreciate that as I am making a list of raga-based film songs (by all music directors).
I have wrote about the way SDB launched Kishore. I won’t repeat it here. Those verses by Anuradha in Abhiman – I heard that RDB was behind that. I may be wrong. By the way, I don’t know Danny, who is he?
Naushad brought Rafi and Suriya. They flourished under him. Even Tuntun (Uma Devi) was his finding (but she had to quit singing after marriage).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BiEqMNvUF0
In 66 movies, he used 34 female singers. Lata, Samsad, Noorzahan – all were introduced by Gulam Haider. Naushad used Samsad in Shehzahan (1946). Compare the Samsad songs in those times, you will find the difference. Naushad worked with Noorzahan in one movie only, Anmol Ghadi (1946). So your ‘Lata-Noorzahan’ claim is false. He first used Lata in Andaz (1949) against the will of producer/director Mehboob khan. Dilip and Raj both were present in the recording of ‘uthaye ha unke sitam’ and Raj decided to use lata in his ‘Barsat’ after hearing Lata. Mukesh was introduced by Anil but look at the Saigal-influence in Mukesh. Naushad used mukesh in Mela, Andaz and Anokhi Ada. And Mukesh sounds really different compared to contemporary Anil songs. Dilip wasn’t happy with Andaz songs as he thought they were too straight relative to the character he played. So this may be a reason (there are other reasons too).
I don’t have any problem in taking kishore’s name in the same breath as rafi, for me only the order matters. Rafi introduced a new singing style, much different from the traditional school and he could do that only because the number one MD was by his side.
Mr. Bose,
How can u say that Kishore was preferred around 1950s? Please check the facts before making any claim. You talked much about the ‘Rani Roopmati’ song. To say the truth, I don’t feel comfortable when I hear to the part rendered by Lata. Lata’s main treasure was her melody and smoothness (you can add ‘namrata’ too). She was never good at low-high pitch. Like rafi she was good at the mid-pitch. However, nobody was more melodious than Lata. When you hear the ‘Roopmati’ song I guess you were deceived by Lata’s smoothness (as the song was not melodious too). Also when analyzing singers I would suggest you to add the ‘namrata’ factor in their voice (not in the character pls). For me that’s important and kishore scores poorly here. Also, what about comparing Kishore with Mehdi Hasan (you will find namarta and smoothness pretty important here). I guess, classical training has much to do with these two factors.
May 11th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
For all the KK-SPB comparisons, I have to just say one thing. Why not listen to “Yun hi gaate raho” from Sagar one more time. Beautiful duet indeed.
The only thing a SPB fan should be missing is that just one duet with KK
May 11th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Hi Manish,
Let me elaborate on the SJ-Shammi-Rafi idiom. I never meant to say that Rafi had problems singing the *Shammi Kapoor* type of songs. I know that no other singer-actor pair -save, perhaps, for the Rajesh/Amitabh-Kishore pair, enjoyed as close an association as these two, I said Rafi had discomfort with the songs for Shammi Kapoor that were composed by SJ. OPN-Rafi-Shammi combination was, to me, the more appealing one and was the one that Rafi appeared more at home with.
OPN, with “Tumsa Nahin Dekha” started a new trend of energetic singing. But OPN relied mainly on melody and rhythm. But SJ changed this basic orientation. SJ smartly targetted the urban-youth during that time and composed in a new idiom that was hitherto unexplored till then.
To put it in a technical way, this idiom consisted of emphatic, brisk rhythm with short time cycles carrying very little suggestion of Indian tala; further, heavy orchestration of high-pitched stringed instruments and bright keyboards, combined with drums, was used in the background music; and repetitive, contrast-filled melodic contours structured to form the tune.
Rafi reportedly was so stunned when he was summoned for the shout “Yahoo” that they had to bring in a Prayagraj for that utterance. Similarly, Shankar of the SJ duo was the one who shouted “Ayyayya Sooku Sooku” every time during the “Sooku Sooku” song.
When I said that I found Rafi to be uncomfortable, I didn’t mean to include every Sj-Rafi-Shammi song. But, I thought that the boisterous effect that was brought in for songs like “Badan pe sitare” or “Chakke mein chakka” seemed more forced than natural. Compare that with the same Rafi for the same Shammi Kapoor in “Jawaniyaan yeh mast mast” or “Tareef karoon kya”.
Obviously, I never commented on Rafi’s ability to sing songs of intoxication without him touching a drop of alcohol. “Choo lene do” from “Mamta” is one of my favourites. How come you forgot that ?
Manish, I think you have read a lot of my posts. I have never undersold Rafi. If at all I have focussed on his relative shortcomings, it’s only when I am engaged in debates. Sometimes, fans disrespect Kishore to so large an extent that it kind of irks me. But I never trashed Rafi in any of my posts. I have always included examples when I made my points, and I have tried to make points that are not subjective. And if they are subjective, as in the post above, I said that it was my opinion.
I am not a music genius or the most knowledgeable person around, but you can ask any knowledgeable Rafi fan too (like Sanjeev or UVR or Chetan, all from RMIM) if Kishore is really not fit to be compared with Rafi, at least purely from a singing perspective, and they will tell you that he is. And that’s the only point that I always try to get across. If you will notice I have always stressed only on the criteria that can be measured.
My previous post, to which you have replied, was my first post on the subjective criteria and I had stressed that point too.
May 11th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Dear Bose,
Part of your post 1497 , to put in very mild terms serves itself as a good laughing stock.If SPB and Yesudas’s opinion is not a gold measure ,then whose is. It is ridiculous to conjecture that Yesu and SDB would have considered Kishore their contemporary and not their senior when the man was singing right from 1947.Part of their singing career coincided with both Rafi and Kishore, so at best I would say they would have considered both R and K as senior contemporaries.
On a side note I am wondering why you left the discussions on mohdrafi.com. It was lot of fun there.Now this is your home turf and you are as usual promoting some deceit through your sophisticated style. Your writing style sure is quite admirable but I would request you to reconcile with the realities.In one of your most recent posts which but for some lies had thoroughness and some objectivity in there, you mention that Rafi struggled in early fifties while composers chose Kishore and others over him. Can you prove it especially the Kishore part ? I recall a discussion with you where I busted the myth and the lies that your were championing about music scene in early fifties.With your departure from mohdrafi.com you seem to have forgotten you take away as well.
The reason I am requesting you not to mix your opinions with demonstrable facts is because you seem to be an intellectual with an impressive writing style and the misinformation you spread can have a detrimental and adverse effect on common readers who may take some of your writings as gospels of truth.
Hope you take this post in a right spirit.
Sincerely Yours
Naveen
A Music Fan and a Rafi fan
May 11th, 2009 at 9:50 am
Last post corrected!
I would like to state that administrator of this site appears to be be a very nice human being,and truly dedicated to his ideal,his ego dedicated to his ideal and careless about himself otherwise after spamming few of my posts he would never have published my last post that goes against the “administrator himslef”,,,,,anyway,,,,I`ve a msg for everyone,,that I have learnt from Rafi sahab,,,Rafi sahab was such a person who would not make any statement,,yet he would always say to every one,,,,,”ki yaad rahe ki kabhi bhi kisi ka dill na dookhe,,,,,” never hurt any one by heart,,,,,,,lets end the rival,,,but discussion must go on for we have to spread light of their personality,,,,let spread love,,,,,,love through divine voice of these legends,,Kishore da and Rafi sahab!!!!!
May 11th, 2009 at 7:07 am
“I am sorry I seemed to have hurt you somehow.”
>> What!?! Where did you get that idea? I appreciated your post even if I don’t agree. I thought we’ve gone through this?
“So, once again, I apologize.”
You have nothing to apologize.
More later!
If I really have to be discrete about what I was referring then here it is: I was at the Rafi site and someone said that only morons think that the Mangeshkars are good singers. I was embarassed to read that but not hurt. I don’t like to hear this from Rafi fans. Rafi fans should look up and never down. I thought I’ve said many times never to take things personally on the net?
May 11th, 2009 at 5:20 am
Hi Smitha,
It’s a pity that you took things personally.
I have appreciation for Kishore, but I was never *intense* in my love for Kishore. Actually, I thought you were *intense* in your admiration of Rafi and sometimes got carried away by my comments regarding Rafi and Kishore.
It was fun debating with you but it was also a little uncomfortable because I don’t *know* you so well.
In any case, I am used to these debates and have been having them since nearly 8 yrs - mostly in RMIM. I guess that was before your time on the net. It’s a pity because you AND Manish would have enjoyed the debates I had with Rafi fans like Sanjeev Ramabhadran, UVR, Abhay etc. And they were all knowledgeable fans too.
But you know what, it was all in good spirits and at the end of the day nobody *won*. Your favourites remain your favourities regardless.
May 11th, 2009 at 5:12 am
Regarding my post 1506, I meant to say *in the 1960’s* NOT *as in the 1960’s*:
“My feelings towards SJ are kind of ambivalent. I loved their output in the 1950’s but not so much *in* the 1960’s. I think they kind of went *loud* starting with “Junglee” and it kind of knocked me off.”
May 11th, 2009 at 5:10 am
Manish,
I am sorry I seemed to have hurt you somehow. Well, a lot of what moves you in music, is dependent on a person’s taste. So, once again, I apologize.
My feelings towards SJ are kind of ambivalent. I loved their output in the 1950’s but not so much as in the 1960’s. I think they kind of went *loud* starting with “Junglee” and it kind of knocked me off.
In any case, to me, Rafi’s songs for Shammi that were composed by OPN (”Kashmir ki Kali”, “Tumsa nahin dekha”) were more appealing than those by SJ. SJ seemed to suddenly develop a preference in making Rafi sing in the really high scale (”Junglee”, “Dil tera deewana”, “Evening in Paris”) while sacrificing on the melodic aspect.
It’s true that SJ preferred Rafi to the other singers, including Kishore.
BTW, here is one of my favourite high scale songs for Rafi by them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVbOQ0Vkago
One of their gems. I love this song so much more also because of the way Nutan and Balraj Sahni enacted on the screen.
May 11th, 2009 at 4:46 am
Smitha,
going back to my post 1389, here are the points which I highlighted:
I am going to take the *singing* criteria first.
1. sureelapan or ability to hold sur - Mukesh, Hemant Kumar, and MK are not as good as Talat, Rafi, Kishore, and Manna. There are quite a few songs where they have been off-key.
2. Level of voice control in lower, middle, and upper scales - once again, Talat, Hemant, and Mukesh score less than Kishore, Rafi, and Manna. They are relatively weaker in songs in the higher scales. They cannot sing out *aloud*, with full projection of the voice. They are more comfortable in singing using mainly their head voice.
Rafi is the king of high scales with Kishore and Manna a little behind. His ability to sing alaaps in the high scale is also superior to Kishore. Nobody but Rafi can sing the high scale alaap in the “Ramaiya vasthavayya” song from “Shree 420″. But alternatively, Kishore is better in singing using the softer and using mainly the head voice (not falsetto) - as in the Saigal and Talat mould. Rafi and Manna are relatively weaker in this style of singing.
3. The ability to transition smoothly across octaves (without going off-key at any point within a song) - Rafi, Manna, and Kishore are all very good here.
4. The ability in transitioning smoothly from his chest voice to his head voice and vice versa, plus how much control he has over his head voice - to me, Kishore is smoother than Rafi and Manna in this category. His transitioning to the head voice and his use of the head voice is relatively better. Rafi’s is not as smooth and there are times when he shoots off a little too fast.
Rafi’s relative weakness, IMO, is in the use of his head voice. And this is hard to explain. Because I am not talking about the floaty voice he uses so well when he sings for SDB or OPN (”Hum bekhudi mein” or “Aankhon hi aankhon mein” etc.). It is the voice required for songs like “Tujhe kya sunaon mein dilruba”. And I assert that that was the primary reason why Rafi struggled in the early 50’s. Even though Talat was the king during that time period, even Mukesh and Kishore were preferred to Rafi by most MDs except for Naushad. But Naushad usually didn’t compose these type of songs.
5. Whether he can sing totally flat or whether he can sing with resonance as required by the song - again both Rafi and Kishore were very good here.
6. Finally the range of his voice within which the singer has maximum control. This is the octave range and includes the octave range in the head voice as well as in the chest voice.
When using the regular or chest voice, Rafi’s range is wider than Kishore’s or Manna’s, though the meat of the difference falls in the high scales. Needless to say, Rafi’s abilities in the higher scale are unequalled.
To me, Kishore’s bandwidth is more proportionately distributed across the lower, middle, and upper octaves than Rafi’s or Manna’s. You seemed to kind of put it down to Rafi’s *voice type* as the reason for the *seeming* discomfort in the lower octaves. However, the voice is part of what makes the singer. You don’t seem to explain away his strengths in the higher scales as a by-product of his voice type.
Finally, we come to the semi-classical category. IMO, Manna is superior to both Rafi and Kishore in this genre, especially in being able to navigate fast paced taans. Rafi is superior to Kishore in singing alaaps while both are about the same in singing taans or, in general, fast switching notes. Rafi is definitely better suited to classical songs than Kishore, but the difference in this genre is not as great as perceived. You seem to disagree with me, and yet none of the classical songs of Rafi are in the *truly classical* mould. I don’t consider this genre as the *clincher* for Rafi when it comes to Kishore. When he tried to really delve into semi-classical songs that were a little more complex than “Madhuban mein radhika”, he floundered. If you can come up with some examples like the Ghantasala song or the Lata songs from “Rani Roopmati” - though I have heard nearly all of Rafi’s classical songs - I am open to change my mind.
Further, to me, Kishore’s varied vocal effects, including the imitation of musical instruments and yodelling, add to his repertoire. You seem to think anybody can yodel, including Rafi. But there is a difference in just being able to yodel and being able to yodel like Kishore.
To summarize my observations so far:
Rafi, Kishore, Manna, and Talat score over Mukesh, Hemant, and MK as far their singing prowess is concerned. However, Talat is not as suited for singing out in the *Rafi style* - out aloud and with full projection of his voice. That leaves Rafi, Kishore, and Manna.
To these I would add more criteria in “playback singing” like:
1. adding emotional nuances to the song,
2. voice modulation,
3. being able to sing different kinds of songs with the requisite voice control and conviction including happy songs, fun/comedy/zany songs, romantic songs, sad songs, devotional songs, rock-n-roll etc.
Now, looking at the playback aspects, it is clear that both Rafi and Kishore score over Manna Dey.
I don’t like to go over too much into this because a lot of this is dependent on the person’s taste. For example, you might be more moved by Rafi’s “Yeh aansoo hi mere dil ki zubaan hai”, while me, not so much as by Kishore’s “Zindagi ka safar”. However, being able to sing all types of songs is definitely a plus. That’s why I said Talat lags behind Kishore when it comes to songs like “Eena meena deeka” or “Jhumroo”. It’s not like these songs are a must, but being able to ALSO sing these types of songs is an added bonus.
I have put my thoughts on where the singers stand in all these categories.
May 10th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
“here is going to be variety in how that disagreement is handled.”
What I mean by this is that people have different ways of reacting to disagreement. If someone hears an opinion that they don’t agree with - they can (1) Press Ctrl - ALT - F1 to release a pack of dogs (ROFL) to get the other individual (2) Become harsh or overly aggressive (3) Accept that there are going to be different viewpoints…etc.
Sometimes when die hard fans of multiple singers come together they take it too personally and become very aggressive for nothing (not referring to any individual but in general as a whole). That’s just a side effect of a great quality in the Internet! that I am aware of and prepared for
May 10th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Dear Smitha,
I listen to a lot of Rafi - SJ but this new gem you shared to me has become a new favorite that I have heard for the first time. The songs I already know I like so much that I sometimes just to listen to those again and again. So when I discover a new gem it makes me very happy
It was great to hear again the Rafi classics “Rukh Se Zara Naqab” and “Khoya Khoya Chand”. I have learned a lot from your posts. A new perspective you really brought out to my attention and put it in clear words was the idea of Rafi’s voice:
Smitha wrote: “Speaking of voices, Rafi’s voice is a ‘harmonised’ one. When he sings, it is not just the ‘direct’ sound waves that hit your ears, rather the direct punch is accompanied by the sweeter harmonic sound waves. This is what gives his voice that thick and layered feel. K.J.Yesu Das’ voice also has this property.”
Beautiful! This succintly explains to me how Rafi’s voice was so versatile and he could change his bass and his texture at will. New perspectives like this and the new songs you brought to my attention will always make my music listening more enjoyable in the future.
Yes Smitha, I will see you at the mohdrafi dot com but I have to admit - the Internet is intrinsically harsh. It brings together a large variety of people from various groups and then even within that a variety of people with different approaches (I’m not say one is less than another or anything like that). As a result, disagreement is inevitable and there is going to be variety in how that disagreement is handled. Sometimes I accept “extremes” from a group positively because they counter-balances and makes me feel less guilty about the extremes from my own group.
Once again, I apologize for that misunderstanding in my last post. In fact, I was being “accidentally” insincere by being “artificially too positive”. That last attitude is something I usually try to avoid because it waters down everything and I get the most fun on topics of disagreement. Toufique put it well when he said that there are differences between facts and anecdotes. Salil considered Rafi the best male singer. Sail considering Rafi the best male singer is a fact that has been verified by multiple, reliable soures in clear context. Yet some people like Raju Bharatan go around acting as if Salil did not appreciate Rafi at all. It’s a 180 reversal of a truth and painting a good thing as something bad. That’s all I was saying and it was certainly not directed at you.
I know it’s all in good spirits and you weren’t “hurt” or anyting but that you even merely wasted a single thought or word or held back in expressing a single opinion is something I regretted. Nevertheless, all is well now (always has been) and we are clear. I look forward to discussing and learn more songs and perspectives from you in the future. I appreciate you taking your precious time (hectic office schedule) to participate. Please send me an e-mail at mkumar7@gmail.com and we’ll be in touch every now and then.
:)
May 10th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Whats this Mr administrator, u have done a great job,,,,,u have just made me spam!!!!,,,none of my post is being published,,,,,this is not something that we can expect from genune fan of pure and pius hearted kishore da,,good bye!
I`m a christian of Indo-german origin,,,,so study hard to get mixed with Indian language,,,yet,,I have already stated i`m a Rafian,,,,,,yet i was in kishore da forum as I have a unque love for kishore da as well,,,,but I don`t know much of kishore da as I know about saintly Rafi saab,,,u can go through my posts u`ll find,,,,,my respect for kishore da,,,,but on ur part,,,,is it something that u have to offer to a visitor like us,,,,,,what a impression will remain on my memory only because of you as I have dicided never to be on this forum again,,,,,,if I want to know kishore da,,I`ll connect to him directly,,,,,but,,,,,trust me,,,,and ask urself what will u answer to the soul of dearest kishore da as u spammed me only because I want to know about kishore da and wanna imbibe in his purety for realy feel he is most misunderstood person with greatest heart inside but at the same time I love someother singer,or rather adore Rafi sahab,someone whom even kishore da himself respected,,Rafi saab,,and u treated with me this way,,,thanx,,I`m indebted for giving me place in ur family so what I`m not treated as family and always remain outsider,,god bless u!,,,,
From Admin : The comment section is moderated for all members. The moderation is done depending on the availability of the Admin online. At times there is a delay. If you continuously post, the messages land in spam and get deleted automatically. This site gives room only for discussions, critical evaluation and not derogatory attacks on any of the legends discussed.
May 10th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Mr.Arghya & Mr.Bose:
I really appreciate your love & admiration for your idol. I wish I too were as intense in my love for Rafi as you are for Kishore. Wishing you all the best in all your efforts.
Manish, Savita, Toufique:
Most probably this would be my last post here. May be we can continue our debate in mohdrafi.com.
The administrator:
Thank you for posting my comments here. I appreciate it.