An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
© Copyrighted to Yoodleeyoo.com All Rights Reserved.
May 10th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Smitha…
I went about comparing SPB with Kishore?? Are you out of your mind?
Kishore ke itne bhi boore din nahi aye hai…
I said “what SPB said cannot be a meaurement of singers like Rafi and Kishore” to which you said, yes, it cannot be because SPB>Kishore…Honestly, before that, in the last 20 years of my close association with film music and having the good luck to meet so many knwledgable industry people, this was the first time I heard something as bizarre as something which you said…This is a democratic country, and we all have our rights to express ourselves,,, i and out I was respectable to all the singers whom really I admire so much and SPB is one of them and I said so also in my post… People like you actually go out of your limits without backup..
May 10th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
Mr.Bose:
When did I say or try to prove that South Indian singers are better? Can you show me trying to do it? I wrote about SPB just to disprove your notion that ‘only’ Kishore could do a ‘aake seedhi’ or ‘chala jaatha hoon’. If you would follow the posts (that are still available here) you would find that it is Mr. Arghya who went about comparing SPB with Kishore and I was only replying to him. If you would note, I was infact applying your parameters of comparison in my reply to Mr.Arghya.
When you say Ghantasala, Yesu Das etc are technically better singers than Rafi, it is only partly true. If you mean they are better classical singers, one can’t disagree. But then, Rafi was not a classical singer. S.Janaki, by the way, is not a well-trained singer. But she is good in filmy semi-classical songs, which she interprets in her own way as Rafi did with his semi-classical songs.
For your information, Yesu Das did infact hear Rafi in private session. He considers those moments as very precious. I have read him describing the whole event.
Yeah, I would like to go back again to your points and debate, may be I can start later in the day.
May 10th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Smitha..
The day SPB achieves the “stature” Kishore has in singing come back to me.. till then keep your theories with you,,,
Have you by the way heard “shing nei tobu naam taar shingho” and then “yeh duniya ghum rahi hai”?? No hold of octaves, range and taans can teach you this song,,, That is the basic difference between Kishore and other singers,except Rafisaab,…
With how many actors SPB “could adjust his voice”.. How many times his voice was flexible enough to transform from mild to robust like Kishore “Chhokar mere man ko” to “koi hota jisko apna” according to the mood and feel of the song?? How many “out of the box” singing he has done? You were talking about the “impact of aake seedhi na”?? The impact is the song was “an out of the box thinking” which in 2009 might be common but back in 1962 was “adventorous” and ” weird”!! KK took the risk and delivered, that was the impact, FYKI…
May 10th, 2009 at 9:30 am
Hi Smitha,
I am not sure what your point is. If you are saying there are singers in regional languages who are “better” singers than Kishore was, fair enough, there’s not much to debate on that. India is a huge country and there must be some really good singers. But, the truth is, those singers who are “better” than Kishore “even in their sleep” are also “better” singers than Rafi. Yesudas, Ghantasala, S. Janaki are all technically better singers than both Kishore and Rafi.
Of course, “greatness” is a different story. Rafi is probably a “greater” singer than them because of the advantage of singing in the national language and having an impact on a far greater audience than them. But I don’t see why SPB and Yesudas’ worship of Rafi has any say in this matter. It’s more probable that they were Rafi fans mainly because Rafi was the leading singer in the previous generation (1950’s and 1960’s) to them. Yesudas and SPB both came out in the mid-to-late ’60’s. And since Kishore’s peak itself (in the 1970’s) coincided with their own career, they probably consider Kishore as their contemporary.
In any case, this line of reasoning doesn’t do anything. If such talented singers as SPB and Yesudas worshipped Rafi, Rafi himself probably worshipped Saigal and Durrani. So I guess Saigal and Durrani are the best singers India has ever produced ? And why should SPB’s or Yesudas’ opinion be the gold standard ? It’s not as if they have heard Rafi in a private session that none of us have heard. SPB and Yesudas have heard the same songs that we all have heard from Rafi. We can trust our own ears in assessing the songs on their own merit. It’s not like only good singers have the ears to judge other singers.
Also, we are just moving around in circles debating various aspects without resolution. It would be good if we could once again cover all the aspects I have identified and the points you have raised regarding those points and see who are the lead pack. I will stick to HFM since I have no idea regarding singers down South.
May 8th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Surajit wrote: “SJ, on the other hand, when using Rafi for Shammi Kapoor, made him sing the song in a way that was not the natural bent of his personality.”
True and it’s an indication of Rafi’s genius in understanding the persona, getting into the character, and then using his God-gifted expression of emotions and sound judgment. Rafi adapted to perfectly suit Shammi Kapoor’s persona. Shammi Kapoor and Rafi are one of the most close, consistent, matching, and successful pairings in all of HFM. But you already knew that Rafi’s natural bent was not touching a drop of alcohol either yet he sang “Aaj is Darja” and “Chalkaaye Jaam” to perfection.
“And Rafi himself said that he felt uncomfortable singing those *too boisterous* songs for SJ.”
I am not aware of this. I am aware of this anecdote from Naushad: Once he came to me after recording one such song. He was very upset and said, “Kya waqt aaya hai, ganeka bajay kutte-billi ki boli bolni pad rahi hai!” (Instead of singing, they ask me to talk the language of dogs and cats!). This is not referring to songs of the SJ-Shammi mould but very weird songs like “Saj Rahi Gali” from Kunwara Baap or “Yeh Naach Vaach Kya Hai” from Ek Haseena Do Deewane. Tell you the truth, in the beginning even I was hesitant while listening to those songs. In fact, someone PLEASE reassure me that the person who does the “beedya-pap-aap-pap” sound in “Yeh Naach Vaach Kya Hai” is not Rafi! Rafi frequently sang “Chahe Koi Mujhe Junglee Kahe” in his live concerts. “Tumse Aacha Kaun Hai” title song (not the one from Janwar) is probably the most boisterous Shammi Kapoor number that I know yet Rafi sounds so natural, comfortable, spontaneous, and convincing. Not sure if “Dil Ke Jharoke Mein” qualifies as boisterous (it certainly is loud as the scene demands) but the song was initially composed to be sung at one range. Rafi, Shammi, and SJ all got together and decided that the song would better suit the expressions of a broken heart if rendered at several different levels range. Rafi initially started the song at low pitch and then sang the subsequent verses at increasing scales while having to maintain very little breathing. At the end, Rafi ended up singing the song at twice the range initially intended by SJ. This kind of shows you how comfortable the four were working together with each other.
To briefly digress: even in the 70s when commercial factors and producers forced SJ to use Kishore the most, the singer that SJ most preferred and felt comfortable with was still Rafi. Shankar composed Lal Patthar with Rafi in mind but the producer demanded Kishore. SJ and Rafi were like family. As a fan of both SJ & Rafi, I take special interest in that.
“It was not very natural, and to me, it was somewhat apparent.”
Why don’t you give me several examples of this from the Rafi – SJ combo?
Here’s a quote from Shammi Kapoor on a song that some feel is unnatural: “I remember when he sang Main gaoon tum so jaao for Brahmachari, I told him how I wanted him to sing one particular line. When he saw the picturisation he came and kissed my hand and said, ‘it’s very beautiful, why didn’t I think of that?’
I guess I’m in the minority because that is one of my favorite songs of all time and I especially like that “improvised part” suggested by Shammi. This is so despite me knowing that Rafi wasn’t quite as good as Kishore in speaking during parts of songs.
“Obviously, all this is IMO.”
Of course.
May 8th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Smitha…
Barrage on the comments on bengali composers??
What about you not accepting anything against the “typically accented” South Indian singers who floated in Bollywood in the 80s?? They were technically great(just like you), but could never “adjust voice according to actors”, ” had that typical accent everywhere” and ” a voice which used to vibrate more than usual like a thumping iron rod”! A R Rehman tried initially with all those southies initially and for the first couple of years did not go to any Bollywood singers… Why such a change now?? Why Sukhvinder Singh now?
Please dont indulge into that game!!
May 8th, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Mr.Arghya:
I can’t get much of what you want to convey. Really I can’t. Do you mean I have already compared the 2 songs you have mentioned in my posts to Mr.Bose?
I am reproducing one sentence of yours.
‘I know you are among those guys “knowing the fact” but ” not admitting” because that hurts your ego..’.
My response:
How do you know it? What do you like to see me ‘admitting’? I am not a ‘guy’ by the way.
Here is another sentence.
‘Anyways, I could have answered you “earlier” and “better”, but thatz all, as I said, i am afraid to go to my hardcore Bengali cultured father and criticize on Hemanta,, I just dont have that in my blood(thatz why I cannnot criticize anyone, even Rafi, when his fans throw mud at Kishore calling him “rickshawallah voice”)….’.
My response.
I am really baffled. Where does Hemant come to picture? What criticism are you speaking about?
About Kishore’s range- I have already mentioned it before. He could go from a low ‘ma’ (f2) to a high ‘ga’ (e4) when he was young. After about 70-71, he could touch a low ‘dha’ (a2) and go upto a high ‘ga’ (e4). I would be happy if you can point out any songs where Kishore has touched lower or higher notes.
By the way, how come I can’t see your last post here?
May 8th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
And Smitha,,,,
“taan by taaan” and “sur by sur”, even Sonu Nigam never went off key anytime nor was he unclear at any time in the higher or lower notes..
So, should we take Sonu>Rafi?/(definitely, according to you, Sonu?Kishore, no doubt)
May 8th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Lastly Toufique saab,…
One thing I always tell all I am tellling you also… Singers like Rafi, Kishore(of course, if you think Kishore’s name can be taken in a same breath as that of Rafi’s, if you dont think so, replace Kishore’s name with SPB or anyone as per your choice) do not require any music director to prove their talent… MDs only sometimes act like an enhancer, but if the material is not there, what can they do??? Do you think Shamshad Begum was short of patronage anywhere in her career?? Right from OP Nayar, SD Burman, Naushad, Ghulam Mohammed, Roshan- all went to Shamshad in the early 50s… Where was she after late 50s?? Please see, I am not against Shamshad sahiba, who indeed was an accomplished singer, my only point is, for great singers, MDs are only enablers or enhancers, that is all!! Rafi would have anyday sung “Man tarapat hari darshan ko”, anytime..be it 1944 or 1974, but Naushad “made that chance to him”(beacuse of confidence, trust whatsoever) to sing that song, that is Naushad’s credit!! Now, if someone says, Naushad was responsible to “make Rafi a great singer”…hmm… you can handle that person beter than me…
May 8th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Toufique
Nice to know even you have read Ganesh Anantharaman thoroughly… cool.. As far as SDB is concerned, he gave Kishore “dukhi man mere” or “o bewafa yeh to bata”, but if he thought kishore could better emote “qasoor aapka huzoor aap ka” or ” chahe koi khush ho chahe”, is there any problem? I dont have any problem… It is only for the so called music fans I mention songs like “Duniya o duniya” or “Aaye tum yaad mujhe”, otherwise I dont have musically any problem with “Aye meri topi palat ke aa”- which is amazingly sung!! SD thought Kishore could sing “lighter songs” better and then shifting to Kishore in the “heavier” songs, has only to do with his confidence on the market accepatbility(which he thought never accepted Kishore as a serious singer even after “dukhi man mere”)….
As for “Aradhana” story, get out of Ganesh Anantharaman and read Derek Bose where the author himself has given evidences from associates of SD that indeed “Mere sapno ki rani” and “Roop tera masatna” were made for Kishore and Kishore made several sessions of rehearsal, met and spent 3 hours with Rajesh Khanna to understand the newcomer’s manerism as he was told by SDB clearly that this is “your do or die chance”… SD fell ill, and RD made one single value addition, changed the orchestration and recorded the songs himself- thatz all!!!
SD had taken folk tunes and Rabindrasangeet… Let me tell you what Ganesh Anatharaman could not tell you in his interview with Manna De about SD Burman:
1. Jaye to jaye kaha- a note to note copy of “He khoniker atithi” a Rabindrasangeet
2. Poochho na kaise maine- note to note copy of “Aruna kanti ke go jogi” a Nazrul geeti
3. Tere mere milan ki yeh raina- mukhda a pure cipy of “Jodi taare naai chini” a Rabindrasangeet- although the Antara is SD’s genuine composition and I personally find it as good as rabindranath’s own composed antara, honestly!
But, is plagiarism only SD’s copyright.. He got inspired from Rabindranath, but what about OP Nayyar who plagiarised entire composition of SDB’s “tang aa gaye hai duniya ke kashmakash mein hum” from Pyasa to make “humko tumhare ishq ne kya kya bana diya”??? or copying note to note the english song “Hey mambo” to make “Hey babu yeh hai zamana tera” in Bhagam bhag?? What about Roshan, officially plagiarizing with written consent of SDB, the tune of “Thandi hawayein” to make “Rahe na rahe hum”?? Salil made “Itna na mujhse tu pyar badha” from Mozart’s 19th symphony, then what?? C Ramchandra’s many tunes were lift ups from western compact discs.. Is it worhy to neglect a composr’s entire 1000 works only because 10-15 songs were plagiarized?? That way, even getting inspired by Ragas is plagiarism.. Remove Malkosh and Darbari Kanada, Naushad’s 20% output is gone!!(allow me to speak, I know Naushad is a sensitive topic for Rafians)
I am not saying SDB should not be criticized.. but to thwart all his efforts by using such claims are not good… Talking about launching new singers?? SDB did not do it?? Tell you sir, from Kishore, Geeta Dutt to Anuradha Paudwal to Danny - their singing footstones were through SDB only.. SDB could have very well kept the Lata’s version of prabhat bhajan in “Abhimaan”, but his chosing ultimately the 16 yr old Anuradha’s rendition, whcih was made only as a standby so that the shooting could be made, shows his confidence and enthusiasm to use fresh voices…
What Naushad has done, by the way, to promote new voices apart from Rafi?? He came to Lata, when Noorjahan was firm on her decision to go back to Pakistan after partition… Mukesh was launched by Anil Biswas and Naushad used him in “Mela” and “Andaaz” and then just threw away!!! But still, you would find Naushad encouraging new singers and not SDB!! Give me a break!
May 8th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Smitha…
Little knowledge is more dangerous than nno knowledge..
1. Kishore’s octave was less than 2?? Are you sure? What would you give me if I prove him covering entire 3 octaves?
2. I take SPB>Kishore.. I dont have any issue as far as singing is concerned.. I admit techincally Yesudas>Kishore, so sPB should not be a problem for me,,, Only listen Kishore’s bengali “Shing nei tobu naam taar shingho” which he sang in 1958 and then SPB’s “Yeh duniya ghum rahi hai” - the Hindi version which he sang as late as in 1985 with all the recording modifications and the help of great RDB… Come back to me… I know your answer, I have seen your answer so many times from your conversation with Surajitbabu and I know you are among those guys “knowing the fact” but ” not admitting” because that hurts your ego.. Anyways, I could have answered you “earlier” and “better”, but thatz all, as I said, i am afraid to go to my hardcore Bengali cultured father and criticize on Hemanta,, I just dont have that in my blood(thatz why I cannnot criticize anyone, even Rafi, when his fans throw mud at Kishore calling him “rickshawallah voice”)….
SPB’s diction in Hindi or whether he could reach that “respect” and “influence on generations” on a “national level”(and a nation is more thanfour states), you answer better….
May 8th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Manish:
Let me post another song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJYWAOdIaAc
Here is Sonu singing it live:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH-cHVFbpkM
Good as he is and hard as he tries, Sonu can’t really recreate it.
I am not going into a detailed comparison; just want to mention the fact that Rafi’s varying voice character at varying pitches adds a thing to the song, so does the singing ease at various notes.
May 8th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Mr.Toufique:
Thanks again for the Salil-Rafi clips. I have listened to them all. While listening to ‘toothe hue khwabon’, I couln’t help thinking why Salil kept himself away from Rafi and more such priceless gems.
Now here is a little advise (if you don’t mind). Be ready for a barrage now that you have commented something about SDB and Bengali MDs in general.
May 8th, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Mr.Bose:
Talat could express exuberance well, may not be in the ‘jhumroo’ way. I don’t see an ‘advantage Kishore’ in a direct comparison with Talat when speaking about ’singing’ unless you want to include ‘jhumroos’ and ‘eena meenas’ in the discussion as part of singing.
Then there are moods which Talat could express better than Kishore and Talat had a voice at his prime which was not matched by Kishore at any point in his career.
Speaking of MK, I can’t agree that he had a less smoother voice than Kishore if you want to generalise it. When he was young, MK did have a smooth enough voice (Kishore also had, by the way). His voice started showing signs of wear and tear by the late ’60s. But then Kishore’s voice also lost much of its smoothness by the early ’70s. But the difference in basic texture of the two singers’ voice made it possible for Kishore to pull through with a roughened voice and impossible for MK to do the same.
Speaking of vocal ranges, a 2+ octave range with falsetto is mediocre. Ad yodelling is an easy-falsetto. If you want to include falsetto range, you should be speaking about a 3+, 4+ octave range. I am sure Rafi should be having a 3+ range if you include the falsetto range. Yesu Das has a 3.5+ range with (his own version of) falsetto. If you watch the link I had provided (of the boy singing a Yesu Das song), you will find that the young chap is covering about 2.25 octaves in a true voice and another 0.5 in falsetto. And this falsetto is a tougher falsetto (with ahead voice) than the yodelling one (which is like whistling). If you are fixated with yodelling, let me tell you that it is not a big deal at all for a singer who practises it. Every other English pop singer does it, SPB does it when he wants to (which is not very common), I think Sonu does it and Rafi did it. Rafi could have done it more frequently and with more ‘impact’ if he (and S-J and OPN) wanted to.
May 8th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Mr.Bose:
The fact that SPB considers Rafi ‘impossibly great’ has a bearing on the issue.
#1. SPB can and he has done the ‘aake seedhi-like’ antics many times
#2. He doesn’t gloat over these ‘achievements’.
#3. When he says Rafi is too great, he means what Rafi has done is greater and more complex than all the ‘aakhe seedhis’ and ‘jhumroos’.
Okay if you still want to prove a point with ‘aake seedhi’ let us discuss it more.
I have absolutely no doubt that Sonu would have pulled it off just as well or even better. I have also no doubt that many of the new gen singers would be able to do it competently. Among the old generation singers, Manna Dey could have pulled it off without a sweat. Asha would have done it very well (in the reverse manner). S.Janaki would have done it as if she is singing a nursery rhyme. Actually she has done it in the South Indian movies. Rafi? My guess is that it would have taken some convincing from the MD to get him do that. Otherwise I don’t see any issues with Rafi singing in female (falsetto) voice and switching to male voice alternately.
If you want to prove that these songs, yodelling etc. are part of the rich HFM culture, it is okay with me. If you think that rules of singing doesn’t apply to HFM, it is just fine with me too; after all you are the one who framed certain strict rules for comparison of singers.
I will be back with Talat, his range et al later.
May 8th, 2009 at 2:54 am
Mr Arghya,
SDB started in 1937 (in Mumbai 1946), Naushad in 1940. In terms of age - SDB was Naushad’s senior by 13 years. People first recognized (as a first grade composer) SDB by Taxi driver (1954) when he won the Filmfare for jayen to jayen kaha. Naushad was so moved by the song that he went to the backstage to congratulate SDB (Only if he knew that it was based on a Tagore’s song!!!!). SDB was 48 then and Naushad was 35. By that time Naushad has already made all the contributions that people attribute to him. 1. Introducing UP folk songs (Rattan 1944) 2. Use of instruments like dholok (Rattan?, Anmol Ghadi) 3.Introducing Rafi, Suraiya, Talat (in hindi) 4. Use of echo (Mela 1948) 4. Making background scores significant parts of movies (Aan 1952) 5. Taking Classical music to the mass (1952) 5. Use of separate recording of voice, use of 100 pieces orchestra.
SDB made extensive use of Bengali folk song but Bengali folk song never got that kind of recognition (or place/hold in hfm) that UP or Punjabi folk songs received. The reason is that Bengali MDs never really tried that honestly, they just exploited it for their own gains (sorry if I am too harsh). Who cares if Roop tera mastana is based on a folk tune? Does it sound like a folk song? One advantage of using folk tunes is that they have already passed the acid test as they have survived several decades (or centuries?). The likelihood that a song based on such a tune would be a hit is higher.
You said that SDB didn’t think much of Kishore as a singer before Aradhana. I have 2 points here. 1. SDB never really thought about anybody. If he wasn’t ill, kishore wouldn’t have got the chance to sing those songs. So ‘kishore in aradhana (the way he is)’ is hardly SDB’s contribution. Its RDB. Sdb did not introduce any new singers. Being able to give new singers to the industry is something that I regard very highly. 2. Kishore was singing for him for 2 decades almost. I know, you have pretty good knowledge of music. Do u think that it takes 20 years for an MD to know whether the singer is really a gem! On the other way, if it takes 20 years for a singer to give the MDs signal about his true potential, wat would be your opinion abt the singer. By 1969, kishore has sang almost 500 songs (my guess) which is higher than total career output of Saigal or Talat (individually). That’s a dilemma that I can’t solve.
I have read Manna Dey accusing SDB of copying from tagore’s songs. usually 1/2 songs in every movie are direct copy of some bengali songs — tagore’s, nazrul’s and folk songs. here are some examples: jaye to jaye kaha (taxi driver), gun guna rahi (aradhana), tere mere milan ki (abhiman) are copy of tagore’s songs. Puchhona kaise maine (meri surat tere aankhi) is copy of a Nazrul Sangeet. And folk? — a lot of them. In his initial years sdb collected almost 250 folk songs (from bengal and tripura/comilla). In an interview sdb himself said this and also mentioned that he still had many unused tunes.
Also, i find sdb’s classical knowledge (on the basis of what he composed) very meager. rdb knew classical better than sdb.
I don’t want to make someone god or someone villain. Just give people the credit/accolade that they deserve. Not more than that, not less than that.
Note: today is the 148th birth annv. of Rabindranath Tagore. I wish Tagore was alive to see wat SDB did. That would have been fun (as we know Tagore was very particular about his creations)
May 8th, 2009 at 1:24 am
Smitha,
regarding 1481.
Talat is one of my favourite singers and I have songs of him that you probably haven’t even heard. I know his prowess as well as his limitations.
Kishore’s vocal range is > 2 octaves if you include yodelling. And I do include that as part of singing. Maybe you don’t. For me, even though I am an avid student of HCM, I don’t think that most of the *rules* of conservative Indian musicians apply here. Music/singing is a global phenomenon and anything that is done in “sur” and is melodious to listen to is music - to me. And Kishore’s yodelling is perfectly in sur and is done very melodiously.
Further, Talat can never pull off the songs of the fun-n-frolic variety. I would be surprised if Talat can pull off “eena meena deeka” or “main hoon jhumroo” type songs with the same exuberance and urgency as Kishore did.
MK, with all due respects, has a couple of issues. Firstly his voice doesn’t have the same *taazgi* as either Rafi or Kishore did. You would have to pass his voice through a couple of noise filters to make it smooth like the voices of the other singers. Secondly, he could go off-key really bad. You have to listen to the “Do Ustad” title song to see that.
I bring up “Aake seedhi lagi dil pe” for the same reason that you like to bring up “man tarpat hari darshan” or “O Duniya ke rakhwale”. I have issues with Rafi fans who have a condescending view of these kinds of songs just because they don’t *fit* into the semi-classical category and are therefore not worthy enough to be considered as *songs*, inspite of the fact that they really test your voice control. For me, Kishore’s yodelling displays as much voice control as does Rafi’s rendition of semi-classical songs, if not more.
I would love to see any of the other singers yodel with the precision of Kishore. Now, it’s one thing to just make your voice crack all over the place, which many people do and call it yodelling. Kishore, on the other hand, had this absolutely UNCANNY ability to yodel with wonderful precision.
You know how people talk about basketball players and their ability to “turn on a dime” referring to their ability to maneuver and suddenly come to a stop without losing control - that’s what I think of when I listen to that.
We talk about Kishore not having a classical base, but one of its most important parts, knowledge of and mastery over “sur”, Kishore had. If you’re going to yodel, you still need to do it in tune, without the pitch spraying all over the place.
May 8th, 2009 at 12:34 am
Smitha,
regarding post 1478,
Thanks, I enjoyed Sonu’s antics. Quite entertaining. In any case, Sonu is a very good singer himself. Maybe he could have pulled off the “aake seedhi lagi” song. I don’t know.
But I would like to see him try the whole song in one continuous sequence along with all the “antics” that Kishore pulled off in both the male and the female voices.
SPB is also a very good singer himself, but it’s immaterial whether he considers Rafi as God himself. I don’t see how that has any bearing on this issue, unless you want to go back to using claims from other singers/musicians to *prove* a point.
May 7th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
Mr.Arghya:
Cool it. I have not started taking it by heart. I have only applied ‘certain’ parameters that one must be employing while comparing the singers. Let me also ask you this. “Has Kishore performed any ‘taans’ or ‘muhkris’ while singing ‘Haan yuhi’ which SPB couldn’t replicate?” or “Has SPB gone off-scale and/or off beat or does he yell at high notes and/or display lack of clarity and definition in voice at low notes?”
May 7th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Mr.Bose:
You wrote:
‘And, yes, I believe that, technically, there is very little to separate Rafi and Kishore’.
My reply:
Fair enough; and I don’t believe that.
You wrote:
‘Take “chal uD jaa re pa.nchhi” by Rafi. Observe that a version by Talat exists. Though Rafi’s version is better: on the whole, and especially in the concluding alaap, the surprising thing is how well Talat has sung it. He comes close to Rafi on the whole and introduces nuances that are missing in the Rafi version.’
My reply:
Quite right. Talat was an amazing singer. As I wrote earlier, Talat is one, along with Manna Dey, who could be considered as a worthy rival to Rafi when it comes to ’singing’ in HFM.
You wrote:
‘And I instinctively *leave out* singers who do not display a high degree of vocal control combined with range and versatility when we talk about the best. Therefore, Mukesh, Hemant, MK, and Talat do not come into the conversation much.’
My reply:
Why do you have to leave out these 4, especially Talat and MK? What could Kishore do that these 2 couldn’t when we speak about ’singing’?
For instance, Talat at his commercial peak had a vocal range of about 1.5 octaves and Kishore had a similar vocal range at his own commercial peak. Talat could express romance, sadness and exuberance very well. Most importantly (speaking for you) Talat didn’t really go off-scale or off-beat nor did his voice texture and amplitude vary thru his vocal range.
May 7th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Mr.Arghya:
You wrote:
‘SPB is a great singer, but lets not bring him in the same caliber of Rafi or Kishore’.
My reply:
SPB is in not in the calibre of Kishore. He is above it. He matches Kishore sur for sur, taal for taal and surpasses him in his ability to sing semi classical songs and has a huger vocal range (2+ octaves to Kishore’s 1.5-1.75). If you think Kishore is superior, prove it.
You wrote:
As for “Aake seedhi lagi”, the question is not of “whether anyone could do it or not” it is about “whether anyone else could have brought the same impact”??
My reply:
What impact did that song make? I am not aware of any, except that Kishore fans always prop it up in their ‘war’ with Rafi fans.
May 7th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Smitha…
SPB is a great singer but not at all a considerable “force” on national level… Hemant Kumar is worshipped in Bengal and I myself have a big protrait of Hemantada in my house, put by my father- a true devotee of Hemantada…
Regional singers are great, but their appeal is confined to a certain segemnt, nothing to show them down, of course,, SPB tried his luck in National level, RDB also helped him a,lot, so did Laxmi-Pyare.. But, as RD said in one of his last interviews” After Kishoreda, I found SP Balasubramanium to be the most talented among all male voices, but unfortunately his typical accent and actors not liking his voice made me stay out of him even though I wanted to work with him”…
SPB is a great singer, but lets not bring him in the same caliber of Rafi or Kishore or to prove any point for or against them… They were singers capturing the heart of entire India irrespective of region, religion and all!!
As for “Aake seedhi lagi”, the question is not of “whether anyone could do it or not” it is about “whether anyone else could have brought the same impact”?? I remember a RD retro show many years back in 2000 called “Yeh shaam masatani” where SPB and Sudesh bhosle sang “Ek chatur naar” and in spite of all their comic efforts on stage, the magic could not be recreated!!
My intention is not at all to hurt SPB’s fans!! He is a multiple national award winning singer and has a huge fan following and a living legend.. But to show him to undermine someone like Kishore is just too much!Even if SPB sings in 1000 voices at a time, the magic could never be recreated!
May 7th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Mr.Bose:
If you think ‘aake seedhe’ et al are the songs to rate a singer’s calibre, and ‘no one’ could even dream of singing them, then please watch this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMQuuZrFaeE
If you want more such antics (I’m not sure if this is the right term), I can give you dozens. There is a singer named S P Balasubramaniyam who does these stuff in his sleep and he considers Rafi simply ‘impossibly perfect’.
May 7th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
well, what I have to say is something that has nothing to do with kis da and not intended to any person in particular but its all about,,,,esp to kishore kumar fanatics` whom I don`t concider fan,,,,,,in many talk page or in comment page,,they keep on saying kishore is better than Rafi for kishore is spontenious and Rafi do riyaz,,,,what rubbish! someone,,over this talk page had inquired to kishore fan-atics that ,”Rafi was so poor with economic condition of family and kishore much richer why didn`t kishore da had musical training or if he had no money for that”,,and another point raised was,,,,”did he still need training after giving numerous playback,”,,,well, I admit its our own ego that let us ask such question,and i apologize for it though its not my word,and don`t mean even a bit of it for I love kishore da as well,and I strickly want to end this hatred talk that the person whom I like is better and whom u like is worse,,,yet I`m sorry as I quoted them,,,but what I want to clear that no matter if u are officially trained with music or not u have to sing in RAAGA,,,and it is this raaga accompanied by sargama, bhava (emotion) and rasa(essence or melody) and naada(sign of virah) flavoured in divinity that make song masterpiece,,,and they call training,,is something that can be called realisation of these aspects before giving it to other,,,this is what Indian sprituality all about,,it says first u realize then teach or spread,,,thats what persaon like Rafi saab do,,,,Rafi saab is as spontenious as anyone else,,yet he did riyaz all the time even for the song gulabi aankhe he riyazed whole night without sleeping on his terrace and so is the song chal mere bhai of naseeb,,that he told to Amitabh bac`n that he didn`t sleep whole night for this song,,,,does it not tell about his greatness,ther is a song,by composer Ravi,,,,ye zulf agar khul kad bikhar jaye to achha,,on Radio Ravi said,,this song was so tough that Ravi could not make out how it could be sung as it don`t have ending word like achha hai,achha hota etc its simply bikhar jaye to achha…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLB833QEMLY and Rafi sang so sponteniously that mus dir couldn`t blv his ear,,,,there r numerous incidence in which quite spontenious even to toughest composition,,,and as far as feminine song is concerned one song come to my mind out of Rafi`s treasuers that lata would have sang as no male had sang this type og song before Rafi saab listen to this song sajan sajan pukarun`, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLgpiMdCtOk ,,but unlike aake sidhi lagi of half ticket, is not a comedy but highly emotional romantic song, now watch word…..
No matter,if you no matter if u know anything about gravitation or not ,,if u walk u walk under the law of gravitation,,similarly,,if u know classical training or not if u sing u have to sing in Raaga
May 7th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Manish:
It is all in good spirits; I didn’t literally mean what I wrote about ‘wrath’ et al. Please rest assured I am not ‘hurt’ or anything.
I suppose my link in the pevious post wasn’t functioning. Here is another link to the same song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0VAAIzY02I
See the difference in the voice character in the lower notes (the very beginning) and the higher ones (eg.1.50).
Here is another song (a very good one at that):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeCh08II2Cc
Watch out for the part when Rafi switches between low-notes and mid notes rapidly (1.57 to 2.06 fo instance). The slightly differently-textured voice at lower notes adds its own charm to the rendition.