An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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May 7th, 2009 at 11:38 am
Surajit A. Bose
I personally feel Smitha is technically more intelligent and had better understanding of music than all of us present over here in this talk page by recent few weeks,,,,so Smitha would answer your post in a better way,yet I admire you,,and have tremendous respect for Arghya and Manish ji,yet its a public talk page I want to clear to every one something on my front,,,,however who am I make any statement…..but….
May 7th, 2009 at 10:54 am
Mr. Toufique
Thanks for finishing the discussions in a happy note!! Appreciable indeed..
I think, genuinely, and even in this forum I have said so on many occassions, that SDB really did not think too much of Kishore as “a singer” before “Aradhana” happened.. Honestly, if you see his distribution of songs you would know the difference.. And he is right in saying before Aradhana, Rafi indeed was his “first serve” and Kishore “second serve”.. In Aradhana, he used both the serves and second serve clicked.. nothing to disagree here and nothing much that interview brings here..
Post Aradhana, the distribution is amazing!! Earlier there were only “Dukhi man mere”, “woh dekhe to unki inayat” or “Mohabbat ka chhota sa ek ashiana” for his second serve, but now??
“Khilte hai gul yahan”, ” Kaise kahe hum”, “Duniya o duniya”, “Dil aaj shayar hai”, “Jeevan ki baghiyan”, ” Tere mere milan ki yeh raina”, “Tune hume kya diya zindagi”, “Badi sooni sooni hai” songs which would have easily gone to Rafi, had he not “regained his confidence” on Kishore…. And for him there was no “first or second serve” after Aradhana, there was only one service!!! and he was hitting aces!! Getting Filmfare award at the age of 68 is not a joke!! What was OP Nayyar, Anil Biswas, Naushadsaab doing when they were 68??(No hard feeling please, they were greats, only to prove how “adaptable”, “versatile” and “zealous to work” SD was),… He composed “Bye bye miss good night” when he was 69!! When he died at the age of 70, he was bogged down with film offers!! “Mili”, ” Deewangee”, “Tyaag”, ” Arjun Pandit”, “Barood” all released after his death! Even his genius son had only one posthamously release!!
SD had his preferences and understanding properly… For Rafi, he was “soft” and “silky” and for Kishore he was “vibrant” and “trendy” but all the times “very melodious” and never compromising on that aspect…
I liked Surajitda’s one comment about “methodic approach” of Naushadsaab… Definitely, that was the reason for him not coupling with Kishore,, I dont have any problem,, I hope he had a great time with Kumar Sanu in “Daddy se poochh lena” and “Maal hai kya re zara dekh le”,,, Ohhh!!
May 7th, 2009 at 9:49 am
Mr. Arghya,
I think there is a big difference between anecdotes and facts. (relatively) i dont care much abt what naushad or op say abt rafi, but i do care abt wat salil says. and SD was very close to Kishore (may be his mentor/guru), so his remark counts. i did not want to try to start an ‘anecdote-war’.
i posted the naushad interviews, because i thought music lovers might enjoy them. he is the only music director who talked about saigal quite often and positively(unlike another great anil who said that saigal was not his kind of singer). and i remember in one post u said that naushad scrapped the kishore song he recorded. its not true, the producer did that. even naushad had some appreciations for kishore too - ‘he was very quick at learning the song’.
i know abt bhimsen joshi’s comment. and for me its not surprising at all. if kishore were a classical singer, my prediction is that we would have got another bhimsen joshi. their voices are (inherently) pretty similar.
i enjoy the discussion. hope it would remain lively in the future as it is now.
May 7th, 2009 at 8:33 am
Contd. from the previous post.
Kishore is somewhat different. Kishore, like most artists, hated rehearsals and practice. This is very well known and was the cause of headaches to so many MDs. OPN, in an interview in 2003, reported how he was so exasperated with Kishore’s antics that he gave the song “Man mora bhanwra” to Rafi. I can provide the link to this interview, if anybody wishes. And he didn’t give this song to Rafi because he thought Kishore cannot sing it, which is the way many Rafi fans think was the case. If Kishore was not in the mood to sing a song, he just *bunked* the recording or refused to continue. This doesn’t reflect well on his professionalism, but the result more than made up for it. When Kishore sang a sad song or a happy song or comedy song or even a rare devotional song (the one in “Door gagan ki chaon mein” with him and Manna Dey comes to mind), his tone is a transparent reflection of the underlying feeling. It’s almost like he feels what he is singing. That’s why it was very important for him to be *in the right mood* when it came to sing a song. Then the feeling came spontaneously, naturally. That’s why he would make odd requests - like the request for a real bicycle in the studio when singing “Dakhiya daak laaya” for KA, a request for a real paan when singing “Khaike paan banaraswaala” etc. He couldn’t care less about the pronounciation - singing “is tara” for “is tarah”, “khaab” for “khwaab” etc. For me, I therefore feel more emotionally connected to Kishore’s renditions because his tone reveals the emotional depth of the song. It moves me. That’s why, to me, he would have done fine even if he was given devotional songs. Because he would only have taken up the song if he really felt that devotion, and then the listener can just feel it.
Obviously, what I said above goes for Rafi too. But, in Rafi’s case, there are instances where, due to his polite and professional nature, he would go ahead and give his full effort to the song even though he doesn’t have that *feel* for that song. And that, to my mind, is sometimes evident.
Both were spontaneous in their own way, but Kishore was spontaneous in a zany, almost crazy way, in an eccentric way which is very hard to replicate. It has to be part of your personality. Further, Kishore’s spontaneity showed up in different ways. He loved making subtle unforeseen changes and added things that the MD did not originally incorporate. SDB and Asha reported separately in an interview how kishore *modified* “Aankhon mein kya ji” and how Asha was really kept on her toes by these last minute *additions* by Kishore, and she confessed that she loved that challenge. Nobody could dream of pulling off the “Half-ticket” song. And this too was a last minute decision when Lata didn’t turn up for the recording.
I have my own take regarding their contributions too. Sudip and Manish are right when they say that Rafi performed in more genres than Kishore did and therefore his artistic contribution, and his impact to the classes and masses through 3 generations, is greater than Kishore’s was, when viewed from that angle.
However, another valid criteria is the uniqueness of their contribution. I believe that having access to Kishore enabled MDs to compose songs that otherwise would not have existed at all, given the alternatives among the other singers.
Take “chal uD jaa re pa.nchhi” by Rafi. Observe that a version by Talat exists. Though Rafi’s version is better: on the whole, and especially in the concluding alaap, the surprising thing is how well Talat has sung it. He comes close to Rafi on the whole and introduces nuances that are missing in the Rafi version.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zslcMFPf1k
OTOH, nobody else could even attempt songs like “Main hoon jhumroo”, “Aake seedhi lagi”, “Nakhrewali”, or even “Chala jata hoon” etc.
It all comes down to what your criteria are when measuring a singer (assuming that technical aspects are not the stumbling blocks).
May 7th, 2009 at 1:11 am
Hi,
Having spent countless posts discussing music technicalities of Rafi and Kishore, I thought it would be worthwhile to post about their slightly different approach to singing and their accomplishments from a different angle. Obviously, all this is IMO.
I had earlier, in my post to Smitha, said that, for me, between the two, Kishore is the more natural and musically gifted. He had the flair that a genuine artist has, while Rafi seemed to work for his effects. I didn’t just mean that in terms of their technical capabilities, though there is a case for Kishore in that too.
The thing is when most people think of formal training in classical music, they immediately think of taans, murkhis, meends etc. That is not the first or most important part of classical training in vocal music because, like I already said, classical training does not necessarily make you do things that your voice is otherwise incapable of doing. So, by that token, Rafi is not particularly classically trained like Lata.
However, the more important benefit of classical training, at least in Hindustani Classical Music, is the focus on vocal drills or riyaaz that specifically addresses breathing techniques and focusses on different aspects of voice control. There are specific excercises to improve breathing techniques as related to singing, and vocal excercises to polish your voice in the high pitch and low pitch (mainly high pitch). Even a few yrs of training is beneficial in this aspect. And this, Rafi did have.
So, seen in that context, it is amazing how talented Kishore actually is. Obviously, Rafi is extremely talented too as you cannot be so versatile without a high degree of talent, but, in Rafi’s case, we will never know how he would have been if he had no training in music. In Kishore’s case, we already know. That he could do what he did with absolutely no training is really an inspiration.
Now, coming back to my point made to Smitha, I stand by my assertion and I believe that their approach to singing justifies my belief. For me, in general, Rafi is the consummate professional while Kishore is the whimsical genius. By this, I don’t mean that Rafi is not a genius or that Kishore is not a true professional. What I am focussing on is the aspect of their musical personality that is relatively the more dominant.
And this, to me, shows up in their singing. When Rafi sings a song, every syllable in the song is sung as it should be - given the lyrics, the situation, the mood etc. Every syllable and word in the lyric is pronounced perfectly. Further, the words are either whispered or sung with authority or sung floatingly/dreamily as the situation demands, as the mood of the song demands. The voice is modulated to suit the song. The degree to detail is just amazing, if not mind blowing. And I have never known Rafi to outright refuse to sing a song just because he *didn’t particularly feel like it*. Also, it’s well known that Rafi liked to rehearse himself to his satisfaction, and therefore didn’t like last minute changes to the tune or lyrics. A truly consummate professional.
However, to me, quite a few times, this approach didn’t particularly gel with me. This is just my opinion, though. Because, there were instances where I felt that there was more emphasis being laid on the *execution* - the pronounciation, the ‘adaegi’ of every syllable of every word, the voice modulation etc. - rather on the underlying feeling within the song. For me, this showed up mostly in his sad songs and his semi-classical bhajans under the baton of Naushad. To me, Rafi was at his most natural when singing for OPN and SDB. When he sung for them, the feeling infused into his songs was spontaneous and natural. Under Naushad, Rafi was too *methodical*. Keeping aside the joke that Kishore is not *worthy* to sing under Naushad, I think that *that* is the main reason for Kishore and Naushad not teaming up. Naushad was too *methodical*, too much *by the book*, to allow Kishore the freedom to put in his spontaneity in a song. SDB and RDB perfectly understood that and used it very well.
SJ, on the other hand, when using Rafi for Shammi Kapoor, made him sing the song in a way that was not the natural bent of his personality. And Rafi himself said that he felt uncomfortable singing those *too boisterous* songs for SJ. It was not very natural, and to me, it was somewhat apparent.
So, there were many cases, where Rafi’s songs didn’t particularly strike a chord with me, emotion wise.
More in my next post.
May 6th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Manish,
Regarding post 1448.
I haven’t forgotten the *big* picture as far as singing and playback singing is concerned.
. However, since even playback singers are first and foremost singers, I pay particular attention to singing technicalities first. And I instinctively *leave out* singers who do not display a high degree of vocal control combined with range and versatility when we talk about the best. Therefore, Mukesh, Hemant, MK, and Talat do not come into the conversation much. And, yes, I believe that, technically, there is very little to separate Rafi and Kishore.
However, I do agree about the *accomplishments* part - at least as put by Sudip. Rafi’s *accomplishments* in various genres or *impact* as related to the classes and masses is definitely superior to Kishore.
However, to be fair to Kishore, I think a little blame must also be put on the kind of music that was prevalent when Kishore was on top. The drop in the quality of music from the Rafi era - the late-50’s to mid-60’s - compared to the ’70’s, RDB notwithstanding, was a steep one. There is simply no comparision between Roshan, SJ, Naushad, OPN, SDB etc. to RDB, LP, KA etc.
In any case, having talked a lot about technicalities, I wanted to discuss about their approach to music and singing. I will do that in the next post.
May 6th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
Smitha,
I am terribly sorry if I was unclear. My last post was not directed at you or anyone specifically (notice when I particularly address someone I include their name!). No “wrath” at all or anything like that. I always appreciate your posts so I don’t know how you could even think otherwise!
Maybe I need to re-examine my posting style to see why they come off too strong sometimes. Last time I got misunderstood by poor Vipul (about Mukesh - I always appreciated his posts), then Savita, then Surajit (he thought I wasn’t aware that these discussions are just in good nature), and now you. I apologize. First of all, I always welcome differing opinions. That’s one of my silly habits where I get bored with too much agreement. Truth is I agree, more or less with your post on Salil-Rafi. Maybe I got too aggressive in trying to make things sound positive. Why should I be upset with someone else’s beliefs? They have a right to believe what they wish. I always tell my correspondents on the internet never to take things personally. I happen to be a big SJ fan but a lot of times hear people call SJ cacophonous. I never take it personally and in fact I have such great, true confidence and admiration for SJ that I laugh off such claims. I ran across someone who believes both Rafi & Lata are not very good singers. I wasn’t upset but had a good laugh.
Please Smitha, absolutely feel free to express anything you wish! I respect your views and always find them logical. Furthermore, you don’t need anyone’s “approval” or anything like that to do so. It’s fans like you and everyone else that make this site and the discussions and everything else a success. This site is not owned by any particular poster.
My main issue issue is not so much what Salil - Rafi themselves but at the concept of burying a truth. This was certainly not directed at you. That’s what Raju Bharatan has done and its perpetuated via hearsay. I will elaborate further on this later when I have some time. In the meantime, please accept my apologies for any misunderstandings. I have learned a lot from your posts and appreciate the songs you have shared. That is my number 1 reason for participating in these debates. Thanks so much!
O and btw - please call me just Manish! That works fine. No need for the title or anything like that
- Manish
May 6th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
Mr.Arghya:
You haven’t grasped what I wanted to convey. I wasn’t speaking about the ‘fame’ or ‘recognition’ when I said “Rafi’s songs usually become Rafi’s songs”. I was rather speaking about the liberties that Rafi used to take with the songs. Infact I have reasons to believe that this is one of the reasons why Salil relatively avoided Rafi. I don’t want to elaborate it here because Mr.Manish has already given me a piece of his heart and I don’t want to invite his wrath (or yours by the way) again. Let me repeat it again. I am not someone on the ‘other side’ teaming up with S-J, OPN, Naushad, Chitragupta etc. always on war with the team of Salil, SDB,RDB,AB and you know who. AND Salil is one of my all-time favourite MDs. I don’t really care whether he had a heart of gold or not. I can boldly say that he had a ‘musical heart’ made of 24 carat gold.
May 6th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
someone commented that rafi fan try to make Rafi a saint,,,i want to ask him if a saint can be created by mere discussiuon,,,its the same conciousness of God that works in everyone with the revealness of cosmic powers only the difference is if we preserve our life achievement to ourselves or dedicate it to God,,well,as far as I could make out Rafi`s personality he was a man who dedicated his life effort to God but never rested even a moment to his commitment or riyaaz,,,I feel that reaction to Mr Nassir`s post that created a storm over here is almost over yet I analyze the need of a bridge of undersatanding between the both sides,,I was to share a bengali story but browser error made my post incomplete,,,where one scholar known as keshab keep on making scriptual and scientific statement that god don`t`t exist to Ramakrishna in public,,,sri Ramakrishna appriciated each and every word of keshab and answered,,,unsignificant,illiterate person like me can be born out of itself but such a logical intelligent person like u(keshab) can never be born with out god`s grace hence,,now I`m more than 100% sure that god exist”,after that day keshab became Sri ramakrishna`s divotee,well, is it a insult to kesab,no not atall,its just natural,,,, there is pshycology about rafi fan that kishore fan don`t want to understand,,,they feel like defeated when someone tells them Kishore admired Rafi as person internally,and Rafi as a singer openly,,,,,as for me only good at heart can admire other,,,the tea inccident happened in kolkata where kishore da broke down to tears by Rafi sahab`s modest act,,,,can any ordinary human being have such realisation like that of kishore da,,no one is kid over here,,we have seen modesty every where ,talks of scripture,moral lesson every where,, but only shrine with heart can get it,,,Rafi fan has no point in hating Kishore,,and other than kishore da`s wonderful voice,its Kishore da`s admiration for Rafi saab,,that make kishore da hero in other side as well, its like,,,,for eg,,paramjeet commented somthing that Arghya don`t appriciate completly,,,but arghya praised paramjeet as he had love for someone whom arghya loved,,,,similarly, but in much clearer form Rafi fan always love kishore da in this context but why don`t kishore da`s side don`t take this part of story,,,as far as ” who said what ” is concerned,,I try my best to keep it away from my dsicussion yet,,I see whenever kishore da commented on Rafi on record or out of record,,because of the situation or context,,,,,he mostltly commented on Rafi a singer,,,,,even though he had more respect for Rafi a person,,,similarly,,when media before 70s never wanted asked Rafi saab about kishore da,they rather made Rafi speak about other contemporary singer of that era,,,no way manna de is superior to rafi saab in anyway,Rafi is better than maana de in all respect,for they were there to make play back not to show classical,yet who can forget Rafi`s famous statement,,,,”chahe duniya meri geet sunti ho par main manna de ki geet sunta hoon”,,,in 80s`s Rafi saab `s wife is recorded admitting that Rafi sahab never used to play his own song at home rather played kishore,,lata, asha at home but she later added that after Rafi saab death the family had stopped listening to radio,,,,,when rafi saab is concerned why should he keep on comenting anyone or prasie anyone as he never critisized anyone,so smiply he was not so vocal,,,,or as Rafi kishore chemistry is conrned its simply quite expressive in picture given above,,where both have haapy moments and later Rafi self aborbed and kishre eye saying all about his feeling for Rafi,….
May 6th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Smitha
//a Rafi song becomes a Rafi song, not the MD’s song. //
If this comment of yours is with respect to Salil Chowdhury( I am sure it is), you are definitely lack of knowledge about Salilda then,.. Salilda’s early compositions, which were made from Young Poet Sukanta Bhattacharya and sang by Hemanta Mukhopadhyaya(Hemant Kumar) were stepping stones towards making Hemant an evergreen singer,, They are till today, remembered as Hemantda songs only- “Runner”, ” Abak Prithibi”, “Gayer Bodhu”, “Thiknana”- all composed by Salilda and sang by Hemantda in their IPTA days are still known as Hemant songs,, Salil never did any propaganda to prove his contributions towards them!!
Lata’s songs composed by Salilda are very much of Lata,, Many people dont know the original composer of “O sajna barkha bahar aayi” or “Aja re pardesi” even today… Do you mean to say Lata was shadowed down by salil??
Do you know in 1978, Salil and Hemant helped Kishore in music arrangement to complete an album of 15 Rabindrasangeets which even considered to be a breakthrough in Rabindrasangeet rendition… You wont find them in the 30 songs database of Salil-Kishore… They are just like those “thankless” jobs salilda used to do for the ones he admired… According to him-” I only saw Kishore’s dedication towards work during those Rabindrasangeet recordings,, Even though it was okayed, he used to go for retakes.. so much of money were wasted but Kishore was persistent in achieving perfection because they were Rabindrasangeets”,, Even today, if you see that album on store, you will only find Kishore and Rabindrasangeet but no acknowledgement of Salilda(I think Hemant was acknowledged later)…
If he had wished, he could have very well commercialized himself but preferred not to,,, He still had many assignments and unused tunes with him at the time he decided to go back to calcutta,,,
You cannot undermine an artist without knowing about him only because he did not work extesively with your favourite artist,, I never say such comments about Naushad or Roshan, although there are if anyone wants to.. Anyways…
May 6th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Toufique Sir..
Why so many anecdotes?? Your own point gets covered under the blanket with so many links and interviews!! I have sooooooo many of them, but this is not a forum to show “who has said what”,,
Talking about Bhimsen Joshi, let me preserve his comments for Kishore on many occassions… Dont want to again create an “anecdote” war here! This forum was having wonderful discussions, let us stick to discussion front only.. My honest opinion though,, it is a democratic forum, you can go ahead anyways..
May 5th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
Mr.Toufique:
It is great of you to provide these links. Thank you so much. I will surely be back with my 2 cents on some of these songs and on the low pitched singing of all those greats you have mentioned.
Mr.Manish:
Please believe me, I am not trying to sell negativity here. I was simply stating something which according to me is true. Please also believe me, I am one of the greatest admirers of the great Salil and I have absolutely no issues with the fact that he didn’t make greater use of Rafi’s amazing vocals. In a way he did the right thing, for more often than not, a Rafi song becomes a Rafi song, not the MD’s song.
May 5th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
I did not make that post to argue that Salil’s favorite was Rafi. Who Salil thought was the best or who was his favorite is not important to me. I was just trying to clarify (IMO) the “artistic difference”. I don’t believe in the negativity when discussing Rafi & Salil or looking at their output after 1965. I look upon the two together very positively, especially given their success together. I will elaborate later when I have a chance.
May 5th, 2009 at 9:51 am
Naveenji, out of 30 songs of Kishore for Salil, 11 are for him only as hero:
Naukri: 3 songs
Musafir: 1 song
Half Ticket: 7 songs.
And they were majorly “active” as a combo between 1971-1980, when number of films Salil was doing were also low.. Also, 70s Salil was doing music for movies with non-mainstream superstars like Anil Dhawan, Kabir Bedi, Vinod Khanna, Vujay Arora, Amol Palekar etc.(leaving “Anand”) whereas in the 50s and 60s he was in the movies of Dilip Kumar( Madhumati, Musafir), Raj Kapoor(Jagte Raho), Dev Anand(Maya), Sunil Dutt(Chhaya).. There was a strange shift for him after 70s.. I till date, could not recognize who was the actor singing such a beautiful, complex chord progressioned song of Kishore for Salil-” O meri pransajni champavati tu aaja”… No wonder, gems remained hidden!
May 5th, 2009 at 8:48 am
I know salil made several comments on several singers. but those comments were absolute, not relative. in one interview in the Anandalok, salil made a comparison between rafi and kishore. it was two weeks after kishore’s death. he said that voice is not everything. and kishore could have reached rafi’s level if he knew classical. i hope people who are in kolkata can find that issue and post it here. i have already posted sd burman’s comments. also rajesh roshan, on average who gave the best quality songs to kishore (even compared to rd, ‘on average’) still maintains that rafi and lata are the best. if u talk about voice, was there anyone better than saigal in lower notes? earlier i have posted naushad’s comments about saigal singing thumris for 2 hrs and reaching the 3rd octave. i would love to know how do u people compare aamir khan, bhimsen joshi and bade gulam etc in terms of lower note and i would love to know whom do u regard as the best (overall).
Here are the links of salil-rafi songs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKiwAFsPckI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OwKWBMmkU4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr7Z3VXGM7U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IQQZGZ39Jw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ3J9gMLyQ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPxuNp_fVcA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwI6qVhR73E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJShfdr4TCQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsfedSbuOos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlEEuNw-Kwc
http://www.esnips.com/doc/c8f8f20b-85e0-4a63-bb76-a10870859ec4/Gul-Khile-Yeah-Na-Khile—Md.-Rafi-and-Samshad-Begum-Duet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ2G7FyP0uk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pju7H-3ObB8
http://www.esnips.com/doc/969b6669-13f9-4822-9611-807dd2d0d77d/Jangal-Mein-Mor-Naache—Madhumati-1958—Mohammed-Rafi
http://www.esnips.com/doc/9f1bba04-126b-4736-b5fa-274e6148da88/Koi-Soneke-Dilwala-Koi-Chandi-Ke—Md.-Rafi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgHXwsf47aI
could not find the links of these songs:
Awaz: bhor hui panchhi nikle
Tangewali: tere nainon ne jadoo dala (solo)
tere nainon ne jadoo dala (duet with lata)
May 4th, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Ref Post 1453,
Manishji, I have read in a few HM interviews that Dharam paji was late and did not turn up on time for Sa Re Ga Ma song in Chupke Chupke. So they went ahead with the Amitabh parts and Dharam’s parts were abridged.However I don’t know if they had retained the longer recording of the complete song. Nonetheless it is a great Rafi-Kishore duet with Kishore-Amitabh ending up with the larger chunk.
Argyaji, your post 1458 is very reasonable. It is very unfortunate that Salil didn’t render Rafi’s services after 65-66. On a side note it is also unfortunate that Naushad didn’t Mukesh for almost 2 decades after Andaz and Khayam waited for a several years before he came back with Kabhi Kabhi. I think commerically Salil was not much in the reckoning after early mid sixties till early seventies when Anand and some other movies like Mere Apne ,Rajnigandha made some inroads. Except for Anand these were not big blockbusters or so yet the music made a good aesthetic impact. His second coming in mainstream and alternate hindi cinema came to an end around 74-75 itself. After that there isn’t much (expect for a few exceptions ) that captures the mind-share although he was active for a long time. His not using Rafi in a nice musical like Anand or Rajnigandha or Choti Se Baat is something a Rafi fan may miss but no one (or only very few) would regret their not coming together for much of Salilda output after 75. As far as Salil Kishore equation goes , Kishore should have sung a dozen or so songs for his own movies with Salil, does the number 30 include the songs Kishore sang for Salil for his own films.
Sorry for the nitpicks.
Thanks
Naveen
May 4th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Mr.Arghya& Mr.Manish:
Let us face it. Salil wasn’t too fond of Rafi, professionally. If someone decides to go deep into the Salil-Rafi outputs, he/she will find that whenever Salil went to Rafi it was out of compulsion than free will. Either the hero of the film demanded Rafi or the producers demanded him or the composition itself demanded him.
For example, one can’t expect Talat or Mukesh singing for street urchins. Neither Mukesh nor Talat nor Manna Dey could sound so dramatic at the high notes of ‘toothe hue khwabon’. Maya solos would have been just as fine in Talat’s vocals but by the early ’60s Talat wasn’t too salable and Dev Anand would have objected to Talat singing them. ‘Dil tadpe’ would most probably have gone to Kishore had it been composed in ‘75 and not ‘65. Salil needed a strong voice at lower notes and he probably wouldn’t have been too confident about Kishore at that point of time.
Why Rafi was not Salil’s singer (just as he was not Anil Biswas’ singer) is quite an interesting question. One can float numerous theories on it. I can provide a few of my own, but not now.
But Mr.Arghya, Salil’s observation on Mukesh isn’t exactly contradictory; is it? Can we interpret it as ‘Mukesh has the best voice but his vocal and/or mood range is limited’?
May 4th, 2009 at 10:33 am
Manishji
Thanks for your kind words for my article.. By “artistic difference” I did not mean only the Maya incidence which happened in 1961(there was, certainly, artistic differences there).. In totality for Salil and Rafi- the “artistic difference” applies,,, You are true, the songs of “Chand aur sooraj” and “Poonam ki raat”(perhaps the last time Rafi worked with Salil) are just stunning,, As with all the singers, Salil’s productivity with Rafi was also whoppingly high with all the 20 songs timeless.. I like the Chhaya song “Ya kehde hum insaan nahi” or that duet with Manna in “Usne kaha tha” or the soulful “Toote hue khwabon ne” or “Koi sone ke dilwala”- they were all stunning!! But there was a basic ” artistic difference” always, as the major chunk of the work with Rafi for Salil lies between 1958-1965( I mean as many as 16 songs!!), balance 4 were pre 1958 “Do bigha zameen”, “Aawaz” etc… Salil was active as a music director in Bombay upto 1980 after that he settled down in Calcutta and restricting his assignments to Bengali movies, telefilms, documentory or non filmy “adhunik” songs,, So, his “active period” was same as for Rafi in bombay-1980! Whereas, from 1966-1980, in 14 years, he never went to Rafi,, Now, that is what is “artistic difference”! But, he had good respect for Rafi… Close assocaites of him clarify “Hemant Kumar as Salil’s most favourite male singer”,, Salil once said ” if God decides to come down to earth and sing, he would sound like Hemantda”… He was a big time admirer of Manna(with whom he worked most among male singers- 64 songs), Mukesh( 26 songs, he had contradictory statements for Mukesh though) and Kishore (30 songs, lots of good comments),, But except once or twice here and there, he did not have “too much to say” about Rafi,, He could have easily found any song between 1966-1980 to hand over to Rafi with his relationship with all the other 3 male singers in tact! But he chose not to, and that is what I meant by “artistic difference”,, Both were artistic genius, but somehat flowing in opposite directions! But i enjoy both of their flow, irrespective of the “direction”!! That is all..
Regarding his “contradictory” statements to Mukesh, once he said “mukesh has the best male voices among all in Bombay” and later after Kishore’s death he said “Kishore had a tremendous range and I never used to bother about which song to give to singers like Kishore and Lata like what I used to do with Mukesh”.. perhaps shows he had some confidence problem with Mukesh’s range!
But Salilda was always very diplomatic in his statements to the male singers, I think he never used to consider any of them coming any closer to Lata-his ultimate obsession, so, he was by and large “indifferent” as to who should be called “best”!! He has called four singers the “best” in his lifetime- Hemant, Mukesh, Kishore and Rafi- on different occassions , on different themes and perhaps, on different “moods”!! So, even I- a close admirer and follower of salilda- have stopped actually bothering whom he considered “the best” among males!!
Cheers!!
May 4th, 2009 at 1:26 am
Mr.Manish:
Nice to read you liked ‘lo ek kali muskaye’ and other songs. I really enjoyed reading your post on ‘hum premi’ and other Rafi-Kishore duets. I would add my 2 cents to it later.
For now please listen to this song as an example of the change in texture that Rafi’s voice undergo when climbing from low-notes to mid-notes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAFlBUhaVdM.
I shall provide more such examples when I have a bit of time at my disposal.
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:46 pm
Savita,
If you want to see Rafi in an “angry mood” listen to Naag Devta from Shalimar. Especially the part towards the end - rarely have I heard Rafi sound like that and it’s tough to imagine given his personality
Audio could be better but this will have do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzCXlORxzm8
Great composition by Pancham.
May 3rd, 2009 at 11:52 am
Manishji and others thanx for the song links,,,,I`m really thank full to manish ji for Rafi sahab low notes highly emotional link of Ashok kumar`s “itni badi duniya”,,,here as Amitabh bachhan is concerned,,,there is a song in a movie in which angry young is most angry as Big b is playing negative role here,,,,,,movie called parwana,,those who think rafi voice is not suited for this angry young man plz comment on this song duet in which kishore kum and rafi saab both performing very sharp while Rafi saab is Young Amitabh bachhan`s killer voice,,,,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3o7FQe4Nbw&feature=related
May 3rd, 2009 at 8:27 am
this was published in the filmfare magazine in november, 1975 (SD died in 31 Oct, 1975).
http://www.downmelodylane.com/article_sdb_final_touch.html
“Tennis is one game that requires you to be extra alert”, he use to say. “It helped keep my reflexes sharp. It taught me that in music as in tennis, there are two ’serves’. If the first ’serve’ fails, in the second you do not tryt something so flashy. Sometimes my first ’serve’ click - as in ‘Hum bekhudi me’ and ‘Kya se kya ho gaya’. At other times, the second ’serve’ came into play. In Aradhana I tried both serves - Rafi and Kishore. This time the second ’serve’ click. I had always had Kishore in reserve. Now he became my main singer.”
“Aradhana may have mark my comeback, but the music of Guide remains my pride and joy” he mentioned. “The film’s theme offered me maximum scope. I found no limitation and I had our two best singers: Lata and Rafi.”
May 3rd, 2009 at 12:16 am
Someone else had commented about Sa Re Ga Ma from Chupke Chupke. This brings up back to reason 2. The film version is 149 seconds and does not have the dialogue between Rafi & Kishore. Out of that, Rafi sings by himself for only 15 seconds and another 46 seconds with both him and Kishore singing simultaneously. Kishore sings by himself for the other 88 seconds. Of course Kishore is going to have a greater impact! This is like saying Rafi outdid Kishore in “Parda Hai Parda Hai”. O sure but we all know why! I can hardly call Sa Re Ga Ma a duet. Nevertheless, I loved this song on the Rafi - Dharam and Amitabh - KK pair. It’s my favorite movie of all time too and the rest of the score is outstanding.
May 3rd, 2009 at 12:13 am
O btw for convenience sake here’s the link to the Parvarish song. For some reason I never get tired of watching the video / song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqXZ1kkyqbo
May 3rd, 2009 at 12:10 am
I don’t use Rafi - Kishore duets to compare the two for several reasons (1) Those duets don’t necessary bring out the best qualities of either singer. (2) Singers are limited by their parts. For example, in “Hum Premi Prem Karna Chahe”, Kishore was limited by having to sing for Amitabh’s character. (3) Songs like “Amar Hai Shatki” come at a time when Rafi (or Kishore in other songs) is not at his best.
Someone mentioned that Kishore was better than Rafi in Parvarish? How so? I know this is a subjective opinion but I can still appreciate that if you elaborate on your opinion. In the song, Amitabh’s character is angry and cynical. Towards the end of the song he shows some devotion to his father so we have a total of three emotions that the character portrays. Vinod Khanna is playful and smiling around to Amitabh. After all, he’s played a game with his entire family by being a criminal in secret. He’s proud and resolved rather than apologetic when Amitabh confronts him. He’s also a tough guy who says if you really want to make a big deal about this then on with it! So with Vinod we’ve got playful, outwardly cheerful, proud, resolved, tough guy, confrontational, and someone who is devoted to his parents. To verify what I am saying, just watch the expressions on Amitabh & Vinod in this video. Does Amitabh ever smile or really toy around like Vinod?
Needless to say, Kishore does full justice to Amitabh’s limited emotions. I love the sarcasm he adds in the end with “Arre Pyar Ke Dushman Hazaaron Mein Pehchaane”. Rafi displays that special talent of his and brilliantly balances and expresses the 7 – 8 different emotions convincingly and within a few lines. His clarity, fullness of voice, and excellent tonal quality are universal traits that allow him to suit an action hero like Vinod Khanna very well. These are traits that any hero (no matter what genre or era) would strive for. While Kishore’s voice sounds heavy and somewhat coarse for the angry Amitabh, Rafi’s voice sounds very melodious and silky yet strong thanks to his great tonal quality. Take out Rafi from the 70s and HFM would be on one leg. If Rafi weren’t around, who else could have rendered this song so well? Take out either Rafi or Kishore from this song and it would be less than half of what it is. It’s a very enjoyable song thanks to their chemistry and combined presence.