An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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May 10th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Mr. MYK
I feel it is waste to argue with you. Only SPB, TMS and PBS can confirm all of my points as corrrect. They indeed have a great regard for rafi, but equally they have the same for ghantasala also. To these singers, both rafi and ghantasala are equally awe inspiring legends till date. Anyhow, i leave it to your mind your own views. But i retain my point, whatever your views may be, ghantasala is the best. Good bye.
May 10th, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Things are pretty amusing here. It’s KK+Ghantasala V Rafi. Hoping it will not become KK+Ghantasala+Pandit Bhimsen Joshi+Michael Jackson V Rafi.
By the way isn’t the Ghantasala V Rafi thing ever going to end? Some 200-250 posts have already appeared in ‘Mohdrafi.com’ and now it’s spilled over to this place and why there’s no KK V Ghantasala? Are these two singers technically and operationally so similar?
May 10th, 2008 at 9:13 am
Let us deconstruct Post 1094 and point out the flaws and myths spread by Mr. Murthy:
“1. Rafi of south word (according to you) to ghantasala does not mean he is less than rafi. Ghantasala’s every song and rendering was a gem like mohd. rafi’s songs in hindi. Films may have failed, but all songs of ghantasala are hits and gems. In this context, So he is called he is like rafi and does not mean that rafi is greater. In fact, ghantasala should not be compared to rafi, as he is perfect in his own incomparable style. Since rafi is more famous (only due to his association with national scene as a greatest singer), he is only being adopted as a benchmark.”
Why are we comparing apples and oranges. Ghantasala may have been a great singer, but he is no where near Rafi. Rafi is not adopted as the benchmark due to his singing on the National scene, he is being adopted as the benchmark because he is the benchmark. How do you explain SI musicians and celebs calling Rafi the greatest ?. IR who never even worked with Rafi, hails him to be the best singer of all time. Same is the case with MSV, Yesudas, SPB and so many others from the South. I am only mentioning the South here, since you and others seem to be hell bent on making Ghantasala equal or better than Rafi, when he is no where close. Why do all fans of every singer compare their favourite to Rafi ?. You don’t see Ghantasala crop up in many discussions do you ?. It’s only fans such as yourself who by force put his name and associate him with Rafi.
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“2. Ghantasala has composed his max. songs as music director in only half an hour (tuning a song). All are major hits with films running for 100’s of days. Such was his talent as music director and concentration in music. Did rafi possess such talent. Certainly no.”
Really, and how did you come to the conclusion that Rafi did not posess such talent ?. You lecture others about knowledge, yet have little knowledge yourself. Rafi could definitely compose songs, and he did, in a few albums as well, but as I mentioned in a link to a previous article, his profession was singing and he did not want to compose for various reasons.
Let me repeat that excerpt for you, Rafi says in the interview:
“In fact, producer-director S. Mukherjee had asked me to compose music for one of his films, sometime back. I turned down his offer because it is my firm belief that one should be perfect in only one field. Look at Talat Mahmood. He took up acting and after he could click neither as a singer nor as an actor.
The late Mukeshbhai took up production and lost heavily when the films he made flopped. If I were to agree to compose music for film today, the other music directors would start feeling that I might steal their tunes for my own films and hence they might even stop assigning me the job of singing for them.”
Rafi had so much knowledge of music. Listen to his live concert version of “O duniya ke rakhwale” where his “mehe udaas aur galiyan sooni” is completely his own and not part of the original song. He also used to suggest many things to MD’s a countless number of times.
This is not about music direction or any other field, its about singing, the very fact that you hve brought up music direction shows your insecurities. Composing songs doesn’t make one a better singer. Stick to what is being discussed.
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“3. Hindi producer sunderlal nehta had produced many telugu films, he did only prefer ghantasala both as singer and music director for films produced by him.”
And your point here is ?. If you’re going to bring up such absurd points, then there is no point in debating further. One producer out of countless others doesn’t make a difference. NTR asked Rafi to sing for some of his Telegu films, because NTR and the makers of these films thought Rafi was the only one who could do justice to those songs, and the fact that Rafi was the greatest.
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“4. Ghantasala has sung many songs in tamil, kannada (from 1950-65) and few in malayalam languages also. In kannada, he is equally regarded as greatest and in tamil, T M soundarrajan is referred to as tamil ghantasala, (TMS rose to fame only after ghantasala left tamil) for your kind information. P B srinivas was associated with ghantasala for as many as 20 years, and he states that voice of ghantasala is impregnable and he is a incomparable legend. Ghantasala’s max. contribution was in telugu with roughly 14000 plus songs and other renditions in sanskrit with complete perfection and great melody (e.g. bhagavad gita and other very great devotional private albums and other private albums all of which are stupendous hits) . So your view about only telugu scene is a myth. He continued in telugu leaving other languages after 1965, because he felt telugu to be great and he had complete command over telugu language. You have to brush up your knowledge. Thus, ghantasala is unique in south.”
I think the one who needs a brushing in their knowledge is you, as your points are not only foolish, but myths. PBS and TMS are regarded as legends in their field. TMS was regarded as the top singer in his language from the late 50’s, regardless of if Ghantasala sang there or not, and same is the case with PBS. Ghantasala definitely did not rule the SI scene, if he did, then the others would have been left far behind. Not only are the other two legends, but they’re unique in their own way. Rafi on the other hand ruled over the whole National scene and left everyone far behind. The National scene had much more competition compared to down South and was on a much bigger scale. You can’t compare the two.
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I am not going to reply to point 5, as it doesn’t relate at all to the discussion. If you’re going to bring up points, atleast bring up relevant ones.
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“6. Rafi since he is associated with hindi language was more famous and thus his voice was accessible to many people. This itself cannot make him great. As Mr. Raghavan and Mr. Vipul states, ghantasala is far superior to rafi in his command over music.”
Good one there, far from the truth, but a good one. Rafi is more famous for his skills and the fact that he was better, is not because he sang on the Hindi scene, but he was better in general. Ghantasala superior to Rafi in his command over music ?. Really ?. I fail to see this, as do the countless other musicians, MD’s, fans all over the world and so forth, who all hail Rafi to be the greatest. Ghantasala never sang songs as difficult as Rafi. I have yet to see a song by Ghantasala that comes near a ‘O Duniya Ke Rakhwale” or a “Likhar Tera Naam Zamin Par”, these two can be considered the litmus test for any singer. Ghantasala never sang songs in as many genres. Mr. Raghavan mentions Rafi has only sung songs and ghazals being ignorant of the fact that he was the most versatile singer, singing songs in genres such as romantic, sad, ghazals, qawwali’s, bhajans, pop, rock, disco, pathos, happy, comedy songs, Ghantasala doesn’t have as wdie a repertoire whether you say he does or not, the truth is the truth after all, so please don’t put him in the same league as Rafi. Also, Rafi had a better range and was far more versatile.
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“7. Sri Raghavan and Sri Vitthal have referred to padyams which are compositions of unique blend only in telugu language. None can deny that ghantasala is a master in these. Thus, rafi was only a great singer, whereas ghantasala was a great singer par excellence and more versatile than rafi. Ghantasala’s contribution in his own field was much much greater than rafi’s contribution in his own field.”
Again, you are stating your views only, far from what actually happened. Rafi’s contribution far exceeds that of Ghantasala, its a universal fact. Ghantasala may have been a master in his own field but he can never be in the same league or class as Rafi. Rafi’s contribution in his field is far ahead of Ghantasala in his field or any singer in their field.
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“8. Ghantasala never sang in hindi, because he had great regard for rafi, and he did not want to spoil the hindi language, as mr. raghavan states, and he confined to his own languages and not like rafi who sang in telugu to pronounce telugu language like the present singer udit narayan (unfortunate that telugu singing today has got access to such singers).”
You love wishful thinking don’t you ?. Even if Ghantasala had tried to sing in Hindi, he would have never made it big. Rafi sang in Telegu and did a great job considering it wasn’t his mother tongue, and Mr. Ragahvan states another myth that Rafi was brought to Telegu music than overlooked after because of Ghantasala. For your info, Rafi started singing Telegu versions of his Hindi songs from the early sixties, that is how popular his Hindi songs in the South were, that people wanted them in the Telegu language, amidst Ghantasala and all other singers. NTR asked Rafi to sing for him sometime around 1970 for the film Aradhana which was a remake of the Hindi film Geet, besides other films as well. Where was Ghantasala then ?, he was still there right. So what Mr. Raghavan has stated is false. Don’t bring up the excuse that Telegu singers don’t get as much exposure and that’s why Ghantasala is not as known. SPB and Yesudas are still very famous and they have mostly sung in the South. IR is a famous world wide musician and he is from the South. Ghantasala knew he could never match Rafi in singing, so he never tried his hand at singing in Hindi. I am sure Ghantasala would have said this himself.
Also, the MD’s in HFM never needed the services of Ghantasala, had they wanted him to sing, they would have called him over. NTR called Rafi over to Telegu music didn’t he ?, so the same would have happened had anyone wanted Ghantasala to sing in HFM. MD-wise, HFM was more versatile, and had more variety MD-wise as well with MD’s from all over India, North, South, East and West, and the majority all hailed Rafi as the best singer of all.
Ghantasala or anyone can never be compared to Rafi, because Rafi is miles ahead of the rest. It’s silly to compare anyone to Rafi, anyone who has musical knowledge will never tread such waters, I am surprised you and others are.
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Mr. Raghavan,
I have replied to some of your points in my reply to Mr. Murthy, and I will respond to your other points here. Even if some of the Rafi fans from the Rafi forum changed their views about who is the best, it doesn’t change the fact that Rafi is the greatest singer of all time and everyone tries to compare others to Rafi.
Padyams don’t make any singer the greatest. If Ghantasala has sung them, then that’s great. Rafi definitely had a more flexible voice and a more melodious voice than Ghantasala. Rafi could sing many more types of songs, which Ghantasala could not even think of attempting and he hasn’t sung them at all either. I have heard a lot of Ghantasala and he is no where close to Rafi. His strong point was classical music but in classical music Rafi was also very strong. Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh the doyen of classical music considered Rafi to be the best when it came to classical songs. True, you cannot compare Carnatic and Hindustani music, both were great in their respective classical songs, but Rafi was miles ahead when it came to being the complete singer.
From the similar songs that Rafi and Ghantasala have both sung in Hindi/Urdu and Telegu, I find the Rafi versions to be better than the Ghantasala versions, and in general Ghantasala’s songs are no where near Rafi’s songs in terms of level of difficulty, as well as melody and many other factors.
I disagree that Telegu is the best language, that is your opinion, its not the truth and a quote from one person or others won’t make it the truth. What does this have to do with our discussion anyways ?. Please bring up relevant points. No one has to be versed in Telegu to be the best in any field, and especially the music field. I find urdu to be musically the best language, it has a better flow in terms of words and is a more sweeter language compared to telegu. I have many Telegu friends, hence I know some of the language, but Urdu to me is the ultimate musical language. You will also find that Ghazals and Qawwali’s, besides numerous other musical genres all are born from Udru, Arabic and Persian.
I have many musically knowledgeable Telegu and SI friends, and they would never make such a comparison between Rafi and Ghantasala, because they know Rafi is the greatest of them all, I don’t understand why Ghantasala is being compared to Rafi by force as well as brought into this discussion which is primarily about Rafi and Kishore on a KK forum.
Also, please read Dhani Ram’s recent post, it is full of great and interesting points.
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Ashu,
You have stated the final list of songs for 1979. Not all final lists tell the whole story. There are various TRENDS one has to take into consideration as well. As Naveen pointed out, except for 1979, Rafi had the top songs for the other years 1977,78,80 & 81, Rafi had the top song and not KK. From 1976-1978, Rafi and KK shared top honours in terms of number of hits. Then from 1979-81, Rafi dominated Kishore in a big way. If you listened to the BGM at that time, you will know what I am talking about. For example, on May 28th, 1980, Rafi had 10 songs compared to KK’s 2, out of 16 total songs, on the weekly BGM.
What Naveen pointed out is correct, even from 1972-75, Rafi’s sogs made their presence felt on the charts, and regardless of those charts he had a countless number of hits in those years as well.
Ofcourse Rafi regained his top position after 1969, the facts are infront of you whether you want to accept it or not. Also, musically Kishore never matched Rafi in any way, its foolish on yours or anyone’s part to compare the two in the first place. Rafi fans know Rafi is the greatest, there are no signs of insecurity or jealousy or anything else from our side. It’s only various KK fans and various fans of other singers who always try and compare their favourite singer to Rafi.
You wrote:
“but i feel it is my duty to make u aware of truth”
Coming from a person who has shown little knowledge in terms of music, and in general, its a funny statement. I think, it is our duty as fans of the greatest singer Rafi, to enlighten you and other folks out there about what really happened, and make you aware of the truth, as well as pass on to you our knowledge because you seem to have little of it and don’t know what you are talking about. You and others definitely need to enhance your knowledge and when you do, you will never compare anyone, including KK, to Rafi, because you will know Rafi is the greatest of them all.
Your posts are not only full of myths, lies etc. and they’re all opinions and perceptions not based on fact. Many of your points are hilarious. You ask questions such as “what qualities are needed to be a singer of bhajans or classical songs”, in response to Vipul’s questions directed at you, trying to cover up the fact that KK was not very versatile, and that he was hardly a factor in those genres as well as many other genres. This is just one of the many examples of your hilarious posts. Why don’t you just accept KK for what he was, and accept his limitations, instead of wasting your time comparing him to a giant like Rafi.
Also, songs are songs, no matter if they’re solo’s or duets, so your highlighting of solo’s won’t alter or change the truth that Rafi had much more hits than KK from 76-81. It’s again foolish to highlight solo’s over duets when both are songs, its similar to your bogus theory of a first or second actor. Please don’t bring up such nonsense points. However, if you want to highlight solo’s, then Rafi had countless number of solo’s that were hits from 1976-81. You only state things from lists and elsewhere which will be good for your argument, and you fail to point out other things, as well as trends, which don’t make a good case for you. Naveen and myself are pointing out facts (what really happened on the BGM), and you are not responding to those points that we are making.
Moreover, you haven’t listed all films from 1976-81, you’ve only chosen a few films. Furthermore, the films you chose had many more Rafi hits than Kishore, so you’ve actually proven my point and the point of others as well.
Please read Naveen’s posts, it is great and full of very interesting info.
Btw, Ashu, you haven’t answered my question as to what you think about Rajesh Roshan compared to RDB ?.
May 10th, 2008 at 6:50 am
Mr. Dhani ram your post 1095
Mr.A R. Rehman is a child in music. Lata Mangeshkar has sung songs in music direction of rehman and you can hear her views on rehman. Rehman did not mention ghantasala, because there was never a need to mention him. Greats need not be mentioned. You pose a purposeful and straight question to rehman on ghantasala and see what will be the answer.
My request to you, you first hear sri ghantasala in the link provided by sri raghavan in post 1080 and you will yourself know what he is. Pl. carefully hear the song for the full 6 minutes and post your views with plain and true heart. Without hearing pl. do not try to question his greatness. Without hearing anybody can talk anything.
May 10th, 2008 at 12:53 am
Refer to Ashu’s post 1082 and 1083:
It is all about perception.Glass is half empty and half full at the same time.It depends upon how you look at it.Ashuji looks only at the Kishore side of things. In one of my posts I clearly said that except for 1979,Rafi voice appeared at the top (strictly between Rafi and Kishore) on BGM “paidyan” from 1977 and 1978.
Let’s take top three on BGM of every year from 1976 to 1981:
The top three represents that the three biggest or most popular
hits of the year.There are other hits as well but let’s focus only top
three and see if it tells us something.I am not mentioning female
singers and any other male singer other that Rafi,Kishore or Mukesh.
1976:
1. Kabhi kabhi mere dil mein khayaal aata hai [Mukesh]
2. Ik din bik jaayega maati ke mol [Mukesh]
3. Main to aarti utaaroon re Santoshi
Veridict: Mukesh year
1977:
1. Husn haazir hai mohabbat ki saza paane ko
2. Pardah hai pardah [Rafi]
3. O meri mehbooba mehbooba mehbooba tujhe [Rafi]
Verdict: Rafi’s year
1978:
1. Ankhiyon ke jharonkhon se
2. Aadmi musaafir hai aata hai jaata [Rafi]
3. Kya hua tera waada wo [Rafi]
Verdict: Rafi’s year
1979:
1. Khaike paan Banaras waala (honorary) Kishore
1. O saathi re [Kishore]
2. Aaja re o mere dilbar aa ja
3. Na jaane kaise [Rafi Kishore]
Veridict: Kishore’s year
1980:
1. Dafli waale dafli bajaa mere ghunghroo bulaate [Rafi]
2. Meri umar ke naujawaanon dil na lagaana o deewaanon [Kishore]
3. Sheesha ho ya dil ho aakhir toot jaata hai
Verdict: Rafi year as no 1 song is Rafi’s although a duet
1981:
1 Mere Angane Mein
2 Zindagi Ki Na Toote
3 Chal Mere Bhai [Rafi]
Verdict: Between Rafi and Kishore,Rafi tops. Actually if you take Amitabh
as a singer he is at the top.
Ashuji I am a big fan of Rafi and I also like Kishore especially his fifties output. I will vehemently disagree with any serious Rafi fan who claims that Rafi was the only top singer of seventies or that Rafi was not impacted by Kishore’s growth.Everyone was. We can’t change the facts.It is true that once Kishore and Rajesh Khanna came out strong together, Kishore finally had made a mark that he rightly had deserved. But it is equally true that Rafi was only impacted up to a point.He still continued to be a giant force to reckon with ,even when the tide was not in his side.That makes him even greater. Even when Kishore’s dominance on Binaca was formidable for the years 72 through 75,Rafi had his presence sometimes as much as 5/6 songs out of top 30-32 of the year.From 76 to 81 we have already discussed. In any case I think overall Kishore had the most influence on the decade of seventies , but you can’t rule out that trends were favoring Rafi towards the second half .Can you imagine that even in 1982 couple of years after his death,Rafi had cool 4 songs on BGM annual of 1982.
Thanks
Naveen
May 9th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
It is surprising that Sri Ghantasala has intruded into this debate on Rafi versus Kishore.I have always held that there is nothing to debate between Rafi and Kishore.It is just the intransigence of a handful of drum-beaters for Kishore Kumar, who keep floating ingenious inventions, that true lovers of music like MYK,Sudip,Vikram and Vipul are compelled to counter them lest false prophets like Ashu, who forget in one post what they have blatantly asserted in another, should gain currency.
If participants like Ghani,Vithhal,Raghavan etc feel so strongly that a real debate lies between Rafi and Ghantasala,we are ready for that and are quite confident that we shall be able to show Rafi’s superiority to Ghantasala.
By the way in a recent statement A.R.Rahman said that Rafi was the greatest singer of all times and Lata,S.Chitra,Yesudas and SP were the other top singers.He didn’t mention Ghantasala.Rahman is a Telugu himself and is supposed to have some knowledge of music.If Ghantasala is such a big shot why has he escaped the notice of someone like Rahman?This is just the beginning of the riposte.If it turns into a full fledged debate on Rafi and Ghantasala ,much more will follow.
Just one question for the fans of Ghantasala:Is Ghantasala as good as Ustad Amanat Ali Khan,a Pakistani classical maestro who besides his thumris and dadras,sang supernal ghazals and film songs?
May 9th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
Mr. Ashu (post 1083) and Mr. Vipul (Post 1091)
I have great regards and admirations on your true views on shri ghantasala. What you have said is absolutely true about the great ghantasala. I appreciate your keen sense of observation and your great hearts of recognising true music and accordingly great legends. As you rightly said, ghantasala is technically greater than kishore and rafi, this is due to his edge in carnatic music training coupled with his melodious and mellifluous voice.
Friends, such is the talent and voice of ghantasala and even many mohd. rafi fans (including Mr. MYK) have also agreed to it. Anybody, who hears ghantasala presents such views. Thank you very much.
In fact, my dear friends, mr. ashu and mr. vipul, i also agree to to your views that Mohd. rafi fans have less patience. They have a psycho fear of losing rafi’s greatness, when anybody has proved that a singer is better than rafi. They are not able to bear their dreams being shattered. In fact, they never imagined that singer such as ghantasala has ever existed. As Mr. raghavan says, rafi is a very great singer in bollywood, but only after ghantasala.
Mr. MYK - your myths explained here. (This article is specially meant only for sri MYK for his incomplete knowledge about sri ghantasala)
1. Rafi of south word (according to you) to ghantasala does not mean he is less than rafi. Ghantasala’s every song and rendering was a gem like mohd. rafi’s songs in hindi. Films may have failed, but all songs of ghantasala are hits and gems. In this context, So he is called he is like rafi and does not mean that rafi is greater. In fact, ghantasala should not be compared to rafi, as he is perfect in his own incomparable style. Since rafi is more famous (only due to his association with national scene as a greatest singer), he is only being adopted as a benchmark.
2. Ghantasala has composed his max. songs as music director in only half an hour (tuning a song). All are major hits with films running for 100’s of days. Such was his talent as music director and concentration in music. Did rafi possess such talent. Certainly no.
3. Hindi producer sunderlal nehta had produced many telugu films, he did only prefer ghantasala both as singer and music director for films produced by him.
4. Ghantasala has sung many songs in tamil, kannada (from 1950-65) and few in malayalam languages also. In kannada, he is equally regarded as greatest and in tamil, T M soundarrajan is referred to as tamil ghantasala, (TMS rose to fame only after ghantasala left tamil) for your kind information. P B srinivas was associated with ghantasala for as many as 20 years, and he states that voice of ghantasala is impregnable and he is a incomparable legend. Ghantasala’s max. contribution was in telugu with roughly 14000 plus songs and other renditions in sanskrit with complete perfection and great melody (e.g. bhagavad gita and other very great devotional private albums and other private albums all of which are stupendous hits) . So your view about only telugu scene is a myth. He continued in telugu leaving other languages after 1965, because he felt telugu to be great and he had complete command over telugu language. You have to brush up your knowledge. Thus, ghantasala is unique in south.
5. The great telugu film lava kusa, for which ghantasala was the music director, had run for 365 days, and was subsequently dubbed in hindi, with only lady songs dubbed. Ghantasala’s great songs in telugu picture were not sung by any male singer in hindi dubbed version ( there are no male songs in hindi) because there was no singer in hindi who could do justice akin to ghantasala in telugu. So the producer left the blank for male songs in hindi with a intention not to disturb the great ghantasala’s rendition in telugu. (however, ghantasala’s sanskrit sloka has been retained as it is, similarly one sanskrit sloka of ghantasala is retained in hindi suvarna sundari and also in hindi film khandaan)
6. Rafi since he is associated with hindi language was more famous and thus his voice was accessible to many people. This itself cannot make him great. As Mr. Raghavan and Mr. Vipul states, ghantasala is far superior to rafi in his command over music.
7. Sri Raghavan and Sri Vitthal have referred to padyams which are compositions of unique blend only in telugu language. None can deny that ghantasala is a master in these. Thus, rafi was only a great singer, whereas ghantasala was a great singer par excellence and more versatile than rafi. Ghantasala’s contribution in his own field was much much greater than rafi’s contribution in his own field.
8. Ghantasala never sang in hindi, because he had great regard for rafi, and he did not want to spoil the hindi language, as mr. raghavan states, and he confined to his own languages and not like rafi who sang in telugu to pronounce telugu language like the present singer udit narayan (unfortunate that telugu singing today has got access to such singers).
9. Lastly, arguably, sorry inarguably ghantasala is the greatest. Telugu people should not compare ghantasala with any singer, because such great cannot be compared, whatever may be the views of others.
10. Finally, ghantasala had invoked navarasas (all the 9 essential qualities prescribed for a rendition in music) in all his songs and renditions. There is no doubt in that.
My above views are only to contradict and enlighten people like Sri MYK who are arguing with very limited knowledge of shri ghantasala.
Kishore fans,
I fully appreciate your wonderful arguments about kishore kumar singing great against Mohd. rafi. In fact, my personal feeling is that kishore did definitely great in some songs than mohd. rafi. There is no doubt about it.
May 9th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
Ashu said ——-
“I think i have exposed u many times…..and it seems u r a person, who don’t learn from his mistake…Anyway….that is not my problem…”
Reply: I have always said that my music knowledge is very limited and I am here to enhance my knowledge. So if you feel you have exposed me, it is fine with me. But since there are many Rafi fans here whose views are similar to mine and exactly opposite than yours, I am in confused state whether to believe you or them.
You said KK took over Rafi in 69 where as numbers says Rafi was far ahead than KK in 69 and 70. You said KK threatend number 1 poistion in 67 where as numbers says he sang only in 2 movies in 1967 and in 3 movies in 68. It becomes very diffcult to believe you after this. Your comments and facts are so opposite that leads me not to believe you much. I am sorry for that.
Hoever I still respect you for youe ability to debate and divert topic conveniently when you are on the losing ground. I mean not many people have this quality. I have seen many astrologers, spiritual leaders doing the same thing when they are questioned specifically. Yuo are really dynamic and very clever. I admire those qualities about you.
I would also like to appriciate many Rafi fans here mainly Dhani Raam, Sudip, MYK, Vikram, Manish Kumar for their wonderful posts and few links they provided to some good Rafi songs.
Ajab hai dastaan teri song by Rafi on KK is very good and I think MD’s felt that since KK has no vocal capability to do justice to this song, it went to Rafi. I mean Rafi sang 11 times for kk. I think it is a very high number considering number of movies made those days and number of movies in which kk was acting!
May 9th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
I will limit this post to discussing patriotic songs only.
Ashu asked “what are the qualities required to sing such song?”
Reply: I am not a singer nor an MD and my musical knowledge is very limited. The only way I am connected to music is through my passion and nothing else.
So with my very very limited knowledge, I think you need a depth in the voice and you should be able to stay on high pitch for a longer time to sing such songs. (kk lacked this) and hence you find many patriotic songs in Rafi and Mahendra Kappor’s voice. I mean most of the MD’s felt the same.
I already gave my list for Rafi and I know we can add few more to it. KK has almost nothing in the same category.
Even in today’s world, I think KK clones have hardly sang such songs as they lack the same vocal quality and you find that most of such songs have gone to others. I will give few examples…
Zindgi maut na ban jaye (Sonu Nigam)
Paghdai sambhal jatta (I think Sukhwinder)
Mera rang de basanti chola (Sonu Nigam)
Mere dushman mere bhai (Hariharan) . This song won some national award and it is excellent in terms of lyrics. Hats off Javed Akhtar.
Yeh jo desh hai tera (A R Rehman)
I remember one patriotic song by Kumar Sanu (nasal kk clone) and he really screwed that song. I will try to find out on internet that song will provide the link if possible. But any Sanu fans here, could help me finding that one.
In summary, I think I have made my position clear that Rafi is far far ahead than KK in this category and we will move to the next category (Bhajans) later.
May 9th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Raghavan,
Thanks for the link you provided. Ghantasala was excellent.
Please also note that I had no intension of comparing Rafi and Ghantasala.
Ghantasala was brought into equation by KK fan (Raj) and Ashu conveniently accused Rafi fans for comparing him with Rafi. I know Ashu is smart in playing with words.
I will try to listen to Ghantasala more and more and will provide my feedback. But the link you provided, was awesome! Thanks again…
Here we are only comparing Rafi and kk and you already agree that Rafi is miles ahead of KK.
You mentioned that Rafi was not able to do justice to Telugu songs. Well, I can’t comment on that but it could be due to lack of understanding of the language. I mean you can’t put right emotion unless you know what the song is in terms of lyrics.
I am a great fan of SP and he has sung lots of hits in Hindi movies. But somehow I felt that in few songs , he was putting something extra or he was over singing!
Example - Bahut Pyar karte hai tumko sanam song from Sajan. He sang lines “Hume har ghadi aaaaaaarzo hai tumhari” . According to me he stretched a bit too much on that word (aarzo) and ruined it!
Again, I am not a music expert, so I could be wrong but that is what I feel when I hear SPB in that song.
Anyways, I loved your detailed post and I promise to listen to more and more of Ghantasala in future.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
can some one tell me where i can find this bgm lists.
May 9th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
heyy..i dont know why people here are bragging about the same thing again and again.. no body would get anything by running round and round.. rafi ruled bollywood till late 60’s .. kishore managed to dethrone him not only dethroned him but score over him in number of hits during 70’s.. y dont all rafians talk about the ban that was put by congress on kishore in 78 and 79 because of which kishore couldnt win the best singer award in 1979 despite having two nominations for aanewala pal and ek raasta hai zindagi.. kishore remained there till his death where he belonged on the top of the music world..why people idealize kk and rafi because they have ruled..so without creating more fuss that both r greats and it was kishore who survived the fierce competition of 70’s and became the most celebrated singer of indian history..no matter what u rafians say..it is obvious that u guys have this somewhere in your heart that it was kk who dethroned rafi and no body else could do it..he was different and he is still considered the most versatile by many. so guys chill..dont eat out realities and try to swallow the truth.
May 9th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
sorry for my last blog,
I uploaded my analysis in tabular form, but i think there was some problem in table rendering….
Actually it was like this:
Movie Name Kishore Rafi
for e.g.
Abdullah Kishore Rafi
Red Rose Kishore
Pls. bear with me. i reserve my comment for next blog…I would like u guy to send comment on this analysis….
May 9th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Here is analysis on 1980 movie:
aakrosh
aanchal
kishore
aap ke deeane
Kishore
Rafi
Aasha
Rafi
Abdulla
Kishore
Rafi
Alibabaaur chalis chor
Kishore
Apne Paraye
Kishore
Banbai ka Maharaj
Kishore
Behke Kadam
Rafi
Beraham
Rafi
Chambal Ki Kasam
Rafi
Chehre Pe Chehra
Rafi
Dhan Daulat
Kishore
Do aur Do Paanch
Kishore
Do Premee
Kishore
Rafi
Dostana
Kishore
Rafi
Hum Pannch
Kishore
Rafi
Juddai
Kishore
Rafi
Karz
Kishore
Rafi
khoobsurat
NO
NO
Maang Bharo Sajana
Kishore
Paayal KI jhankar
Kishore
Qurbani
Kishore
Rafi
Raam Balram
Kishore
Rafi
Red Rose
Kishore
Saboot
Kishore
Shaan
Kishore
Rafi
The Burning Train
Kishore
Rafi
Thodi si Bewafa
Kishore
Uneed Bees
Rafi
Yaari Dushmini
Kishore
Rafi
May 9th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Thanks Vikram,
For posting Soham’s interview link: If you go back few blog of mine, you can find i posted 2 link where Vishal(Vishal-Shekhar fame) said “He is die-hard fan of Kishore” and KK also said the same abt Kishore.
Soham likes Rafi as u like Rafi, vishal likes Kishore as i like Kishore. So, it is very subjective.
I’ve gone through link and i found him (Soham) mentioning “K for Kishore” in interview. Have u observed one thing…U can be fan of Rafi, but u can’t ignore Kishore….
U wrote:
See carefully. Kishore looks so angry with himself for not having been allowed to sing even for himself. What an irony! He is so upset that he can’t even lip synch properly.
My reply:
I can just laugh on this….U mean to say…..director paagal tha jo kishore ka emotion dekh nahi paaya…THis is another illusion from ur side…..
May 9th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Vipul..
I am not playing with words…I am telling u a truth..I have already presented evidence on Kishore’s popularity in 2008.
I have question for you and other rafians:
Pls. go through this link and let me know if there are any movie missed in the list:
http://filmyduniya.in/bollywood/movies/1980/
Dear friend Sudip,
I am sure…Not only u can sing “Thumri”, “Yoodelling” but also u can compose, write lyrics, act.
May 9th, 2008 at 11:40 am
Ashu:
You got it!!! I am learning Thumri. Your example of Kishore’s Thumri gave me the confidence that I can also sing it…Thanks mate for the pointer..
After all, you know what Manna said about copying Kishore’s songs
May 9th, 2008 at 9:20 am
VIpul…
I think i have exposed u many times…..and it seems u r a person, who don’t learn from his mistake…Anyway….that is not my problem…
Let me explain you abt Kishore, Ghantsala and Rafi.
I heard Ghantasala…He is great in his own style, technically he might be greater than Kishore and Rafi.
I know what i am discussing here…I am not confused like you..
I am discussing Hindi film music, and i am discussing hindi playback singers.
Personlly i believe there is no match for Kishore, and i am not shy to accept that Rafi and Mukesh were another great singers we had, though they have different styles. But still there is room for comparison between Rafi and Kishore, because they both belong to Hindi film music, and they both were playback singer, first was not true in case of Ghantsala….So i don’t waste my time in comaparing them, again u people compare ghantsala with Rafi, because u still don’t know where Rafi stands….
Personally i don;t feel to compare them(Rafi n Kishore), but it was you rafians alwyas start this thread, because you are not sure abt Rafi’s position…
[Check Mohdrafi.com website….People start abusing when they lost debate]
Vipul, During debate People like you, has very limited knowledge(~negligible) abt music, talk abt patriotic, qawaali, and blah.
Can you answer my few questions:?
1. What are the qualities require to sing Patriotic songs?
2. What are the qualities require to sing Qawaali songs?
3. What are the qualities require to sing sad songs?
4. What are the qualities require to sing happy songs?
Above questions are in the context of SUR and TAAL. Pls. don’t try to divert the topic….
Waiting for reply.
I am missing Sudip here…..I think he is learning “Thumri”
May 9th, 2008 at 9:03 am
Dear myk….
My analysis are completely original……
Here is list of BMG 80:
In top 5….There was only one solo in male voice, and that is from Kishore…
- Meri umar ke naozawanoo…
Rest are duets from Sargam, and Mr. Natwarlal
Is it not enough to open ur eyes…..??????
I will repeat again…Rafi never regained his lost position after 69…..
May 9th, 2008 at 8:59 am
myk,
I never said Sargam was released in after 80. Pls. check the blog.
Here is list of BMG 79:
Top 5 songs:
1. khike Paan Banara wala.. Kishore
2. O Saathi Re …kishore version, not Asha
3. AAja re…Lata from Noorie
4. badalatey Rishtey….Kishore for Roshi and Rafi for Jeetendra, suman for Reena Roy
5. Hum Bewafa….kishore in shalimar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaca_Geetmala_annual_list_1979
Kishore: 3 solos…..There were no solo from Lata or Rafi in top 5…
I am sure it will not open ur eyes, but i feel it is my duty to make u aware of truth…
May 9th, 2008 at 7:53 am
Mr. Vipul - your post 1075 & Mr. MYK -post 960 and other posts.
I request you to kindly give a patient reading to my post 1065.
I am well versed in 12 languages including telugu and hindi and my knowledge says that, though i am a tamilian, telugu is the best and greatest among all the indian languages. This was stated by late prime minister p v narasimha rao, who was adept in 18 languages, and also by the 15th century vijayanagara emperor, sri krishna deva raya, who was well versed in all the national languages. The emperor had 9 jewels in his court, who were all great and preferably genuises in telugu language and composing and rendering of padyams (which sri vitthal ji referred) The emperor spent most of his time listening to the telugu compositions. To be adept in telugu language is simply a fortune to be inherited by birth.
As vitthal ji observed, ghantasala had sung innumerable padyams in films in telugu, and he was a master incomparable in that. Leave Mohd. rafi, no other southern singer could match ghantasala in that, leave his songs. Ghantasala had no formal education, he was a freedom fighter who was jailed for 18 months for his participation in quit india movement, yet by virtue of his god gifted talent he achieved pinnacle heights in the south indian cine field. His telugu command is completely perfect. Not only telugu, hear his sanskrit slokas and other renderings, they are completely perfect. He was a music director par excellence. The combination of ghantasala and NTR in the mythological movies in telugu, where NTR has achieved the status of being seen as god by his so called believing fans, cannot be seen or perceived anywhere in India in any language leave Hindi. Mythological movies are the best in only telugu language, whether in terms of music, singing, acting or screeplay etc. and ghantasala and NTR and another great actor from the south SVR simply excel. Such combination has never been in India in any language. Padyams, as referred by sri vitthal ji, are a unique genre of dramatic verses, which have been mainly sung in dramas. Ghantasala had the unique distintion of bringing padyams to films and giving them a blend of the greatest style and rendering to the absolute perfection in films, mostly mythological. padyams singing require different musical training, called as padya sangeetham, and ghantasala was adept in that. Despite ghantasala’s training, ghantasala himself adapted his own technique of rendering padyams in a mellifluous and original way, thus making them unique in his style of singing and thus making them incomparable. There are 100’s of padyams sung by sri ghantasala in telugu. To sing padyams, one has to have a great command in telugu language, and it is not so easy. I have heard 100’s of songs of mohd. rafi and ghantasala. Rafi had only sung songs and ghazals, whereas ghantasala has sung not only 1000’s of songsof all moods and genres, but many sanskrit slokas, padyams, classical compositions, besides being great music director. Ghantasala possessed a voice which was more metallic than kishore kumar and more melodious and majestic and flexibility than mohd. rafi in rendering different types of songs. His edge in carnatic music than mohd. rafi in his hindusthani, has created further edge to his melodious voice. Ghantasala is a trained carnatic musician par excellence. Rafi has sung in telugu also, i have heard him, but he is no where near ghantasala. Moreover, he spoiled the telugu language. NTR did introduce rafi in telugu, to see rafi’s talent, but had to bid goodbye to rafi, due to the wave of ghantasala in telugu. Ghantasala did not sing in hindi, because he did not know hindi, and was aware of the fact that if he sang, he would have also spoiled hindi language like rafi in telugu.
Mr. Vipul
I consider mohd. rafi as the greatest singer in bollywood, but he cannot be compared to the incomparable ghantasala of the south. If rafi is rafi, ghantasala is ghantasala. Truly speaking, a carnatic playback legend and hindusthani legend should not be compared. Both are greatest masters in their own fields. But i had to write about shri ghantasala, and his talent, since he was compared to rafi, the greatest in bollywood. Rafi is definitely the greatest in bollywood.
As Mr. MYK states in post 960, kishore kumar is miles behind mohd. rafi, and of course the great ghantasala. If you have not heard, shri ghantasala, i produce here under one of the greatest songs (siva sankari) sung by him. I request you to give a careful hearing to the entire song. This song has nothing to do with telugu language, but is completely classical and sanskritised version mixed with telugu blend and is simply a classical and incomparable composition in itself and perhaps none other than ghantasala could do justice to it. Here is the link for the great song.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M3hCRAQ2yJg
All the other readers can hear the above song. I assure, after hearing, friends will know what ghantasala is and what his range is and how easily his voice moves in singing greatest songs and his command over music.
I have seen rafi fans bringing some jhanak jhanak of manna dey as similar to above song of ghantasala, but sorry to state the song is not even 20%to the one rendered by ghantasala. Moreover, Mr. Vipul, Pl. go to mohd. rafi. com and analyse the views presented therein, by well trained musicians, namely mr. khan, mr. vasu, mr. ramakrishna etc. who have unequivocally agreed for ghantasala to be the greatest than mohd. rafi. All those are rafi fans, but they came to the conclusion of ghantasala being greater than rafi, only after carefully hearing sri ghantasala.
I Conclulde, Ghantasala, and Mohd. rafi, are the two greatest playback singers gifted by god almighty to the earth. May all friends enjoy the music of these great legends to their heartful content & be happy always. I close my issue. Good bye.
May 9th, 2008 at 7:38 am
somebody mentioned that Rafi was singing flat.
Now please listen to this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SonO9TrHO1A
Here kk is live and he is flat and out of sur. Please tell me if m obeservation is correc or not.
May 9th, 2008 at 6:18 am
Mr. Raghavan,
I respect your views about Ghantasala, as I do for Mr. Vitthal as well, but Rafi’s repertoire has much more variety than Ghantasala’s, his songs were tougher, and he had a better voice and range (in my view). The two can never be compared, because Rafi not only ruled his own mother tounge language, but the National Scene as well, whereas Ghantasala was confined to just Telegu. I have heard so many songs of Ghantasala and I have yet to find songs rendered by him that come anywhere near countless Rafi songs. The comparison is not fair, Rafi is miles ahead, its like comparing apples and oranges. I have read the comments on the Rafi site about the debate on Rafi and Ghantasala, and I doubt Rafi fans have changed their mind and said Ghantasala is better. Rafi fans have acknowledged that Ghantasala is a great singer, but he can never be a Rafi or come close to Rafi in any way possible. It’s not a fair comparison by any means. Why bring up the Bhagvad Gita renditon, when it doesn’t have anything to do with our discussion ?. It may be excellent, but there are countless Rafi songs that will make one forget where they are (using your words), and transport one into another world.
You are saying Ghantasala ruled the SI music scene, but are not mentioning TMS or PBS who also ruled their particular language, so to say Ghantasala ruled the whole scene is not correct, there were others there. Rafi on the other hand ruled the National scene, not a particular language, and he ruled a scene where there was much more competition compared to the South. Ghantasala, TMS, PBS etc. did not face as much competition in their respective languages, Rafi faced a challenge from many singers and came out on top and was able to rule for that long. The Telegu scene is confined to a smaller scale, you can’t compare this with the National Scene which is on a much bigger and grand scale in terms of everything.
The majority of musicans, MD’s, singers etc. North, South, East, and West as well as world-wide all consider Rafi to be the greatest of all time. Ghantasala is not mentioned in the same breath even though he was a great singer, but Rafi is in his own league and class.
Atleast you agree that Rafi was better than KK which is the obvious truth. Its a joke to compare KK or anyone to a giant like Rafi.
May 9th, 2008 at 1:52 am
Ashu said
“Bhai mere…Rafi ko yaad kiya jaata hai….kyunki log bhool gae hai. Kishore ko bhulaya nahi ja sakata…..”
Reply: Why do u play wth words? Why do not you debate on facts? I want to learn more factual things from you and everyone here rather than fantasy.
By the way, What is your profession? Are you some religious guru? You seem to be very good in playing with words and creating delusion (that is what all religious gurus do) and ignore real comparison?
I am sure that you will reply to this message but do not give me information on kk’s patriotic songs and there by avoid discussing versatility of both singers. keep it up! I am enjoying anyways!
May 9th, 2008 at 12:04 am
Ashu Ji,
Please do not turn a blind eye to the Youtube evidence that I presented to you in one of my previous posts. See carefully. Kishore looks so angry with himself for not having been allowed to sing even for himself. What an irony! He is so upset that he can’t even lip synch properly. My dear friend it’s hard to hide the truth in the modern world of technology. The following link will always serve you as a reminder about Rafi being the greatest. I hope better sense prevails this time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOUw8AnSBPo&NR=1
Here is another link to Soham’s (In Dino fame from Life In a Metro) interview published in “The Hindustan Times”. His favourite is Rafi. He calls himself a die hard fan of Mohd. Rafi.
Rafi.http://hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=27943d59-1c05-404c-a8d7-01522293d331&&Headline=I+will+sing+in+my+own+voice%3a+Soham