An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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April 29th, 2008 at 4:32 am
LOL @ Raj P’s comment about Meri Bheegi Bheegi Si being better than any Rafi sad song in the 70’s. This is a routine, simple, average song taken to no great heights by the singing. If Rafi had sung it he would have turned it into a classic. There are many better sad songs that Kishore has sung than the one from Anamika, and Rafi’s sad songs in the 70s’s (since you want to compare only 70’s songs) beat out Kishore sad songs by miles. A very poor example, citing Anamika’s average song, but then this is expected from KK fans because KK simply doesn’t have the vast repetoire of classic songs that Rafi has.
Ofcourse Rafi’s voice had power, it had the most power and punch, Kishore or any other singer did not come anywhere close. If Kishore tried to put power into his songs, it would end up being loud, whereas with Rafi, the rendition, voice and song was always melodious.
‘Churaliya Hai Tumne” and “Aaja Aaja” are known for Rafi’s singing, there is no way Asha is better than Rafi in these songs or others. In the case of “Churaliya Hai Tumne”, RD should be lucky, that he had Rafi to sing this song. Thank goodness he chose Rafi and not Kishore for this song or it would not have been as popular as it is. Rafi was a one man industry and the greatest, he didnt need anyone, or NH (as you mentioned) to give him tunes, every MD including RD gave him tunes because he was the best, and the only one who could sing them. It’s a well known fact, that Rafi carried his duets with Asha and Lata, so any talk of Asha carrying Rafi in this song, or any songs (as well as Lata carrying Rafi in any songs), is definitely not true.
Rafi wouldn’t dare attempt KK numbers ?. This can only come from an ignorant person who doesn’t have a clue about music. Rafi could sing KK numbers in his sleep, KK could never ever attempt or come anywhere near Rafi songs. HamaraCD doesn’t matter, and it definitely doesn’t prove KK was the greatest. I feel sorry that KK fans bring up absolutely worthless examples to prove their point. If you’re talking about novelty, Rafi had the greatest of them all, Kishore or any singer was far behind.
Rafi was brilliant in classical singing, Pandit Gyan Prakash Ghosh, the doyen of classical music considered Rafi to be the greatest when it came to classical singing and songs. You may have your personal views, but it doesn’t alter the fact that Rafi was brilliant in this genre, as well as all other genres, and was the best in all genres and was the greatest singer of all time. What about Kishore in the classical genre, you failed to mention it ?. Oh wait, he doesn’t have any classical songs that merit discussion, and it was another genre, of the many, that he could not attempt and do well in, and yet you want to compare him to Rafi ?.
“Main Jat Yamla” was much better than “Khaike Pan Banarawala”. The Don song was average and hardly had any melody, but look at how much melody there is in Rafi’s rendition compared to KK’s rendition, and “Main Jat Yamla” is a better song than “Khaike Pan” purely because of the singing. If Rafi had sung the Don song, it would have been much better. Also, Rafi was much better than KK when it came to masti songs too.
Thanks for mentioning “Ek Rasta Do Rahi” where Kishore is literally screaming trying to match Rafi, and Rafi’s rendition is great and melodious as usual. Rafi always had a better voice than KK, and it was never gone after 1973 as you mentioned. It was always golden and rich just like in every year and decade. KK’s voice deteriorated, whereas Rafi’s voice kept on shining.
Kishore’s voice pristine in the late 80’s ?. This is a joke and one of the funniest comment I have ever read on this site.
I never wanted to join this debate because such nonsense is being spread all over this site. Rafi beats out any singer when it comes to voice, melody, range, versatility etc. KK fans can’t seem to accept that Rafi was better and the greatest, and that there were many better singers than their idol, and Rafi leads that list.
April 29th, 2008 at 2:02 am
Dhani Ram wrote:
Heard some Lata Kishore duets.Kishore badly trails Lata.While Lata’s voice is supple,modulatory,free and flexible,Kishore’s is wooden.
Reply- One song that quickly come to my mind is “Jeevan ki Bagiya Mehkegi” from Tere mere sapne.
kk is nowhere when compared to Lata in that song.
April 29th, 2008 at 12:45 am
ASHU and KK fans:
Refer to my post #883. I had mentioned that Rafi was equal if not better in Rajesh Roshan’s eyes. The reason why they went with Kishore in most films was because of the genre of the movies (which suited Kishore more though Rafi could have sung them as well).
Here is a proof of that:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/fr/2007/06/29/stories/2007062950770100.htm
Rajesh Roshan:” If I have one regret today, it is that my favourite singer Rafi is not there and Lata is not singing much.”
ASHU: Now you can put Rajesh Roshan in the same bracket as AR Rahman
April 28th, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Rajpal Sahib
I have a CD containing duets of 70s.
Karwatein badalte rahe sari raat hum.Lata carries the song.Kishore is wooden and jaded.He is not able sing the notes properly.Voice is muffled and articulation weak.It is a popular song but Kishore is a complete failure.
This one is followed by Teri bindya re.Rafi outshines Lata.The song is more complex than the previous one.
Then comes the popular number from Andhi;Tum aa gaye ho saroor aa gaya hai.Again Lata’s song.Kishore sings the first line reasonably well.In the second he is prosaic and jerky.The song is romantic and needs a softer voice.Kishore heavy and coughie voice is totally unsuitable for the song.
This one is followed by:Yun he tum mujh se baat karti ho.Again both Rafi and Asha sing it very well though Rafi’s articulation is much better.Asha’s voice has a serious defect.It gets repeatedly compressed even when singing a single line in any song.
Next is:Parbat ke peeche Chambe ka gaon.Rafi the same master as in two previous ones.
Next comes: Aankhon mein kajal.Horrendous performance by Kishore.He is unable to articulate anything.Voice simply doesn’t come out.Jinhe naaz hai Kishore par voh kahaan hain?Did Asha include this one also when she said that Kishore 100% songs were sung well?Not even a Kishore fanatic will like this one but will still assert in public that it is good to doggedly carry on his animus against the greatest singer,Rafi.
This is followed by Rafi Asha duet:Kya dekhte ho surat tumhari.Does this superb rendering by Rafi need any comment?
Comes another Lata Kishore duet:Tum sang preet lagai sajna.Where is that touted full throated quality of Kishore?Kishore is complete flop.Just rasping and grating sounds expelled from the throat with great labour.
Then comes Rafi Lata masterpiece: Zihale maskin.What a song.Here is music in its true form and how divinely have the two greatest singers of Indian film music have sung it.Compare this one with all the kishore stuff cited above.
I can go on and on.There is not even one song sung badly by Rafi in his entire career.Composition might have been bad but the quality of voice salvaged it.Kishore sang all the songs cited above badly.
Raj Sahib:You must have heard Rafi’s non-panegyric to Mahatma Gandhi:Suno suno ai dunya walo Bapu ki yeh amar kahani.Cite any non-film song of Kishore as popular as this.But Kishore will draw a blank.He is dumb in most forms of Indian singing.Please don’t do gross injustice to Kishore by putting him on pedestal where he becomes an object of ridicule.You like him.Go on listening to him.
Vikram
Please don’t withdraw.We are not on this forum just to debate Ashu Sahib and Rajpal Sahib.If you may recall in one of my very first posts I said that there is actually nothing to debate.Rafi is the Mount Everest of Indian music whereas all others are just foothills.But this discussion is deepening our own appreciation of music.So please stay back.
April 28th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
This is one good article on Rafi, kk and burmans…(in rediff)
Here is sone portion of the article… (kk fans may not like)
——————————————————————-
Kishore, for all his voice quality, did restrict Dada Burman in his compositional ambit. But SD instinctively recognised that compositions, by 1970, had to be less complex to find a ready reception in the audience’s ear. So Dada settled for Kishore (at the expense of Rafi).
http://inhome.rediff.com/movies/2000/oct/31burman.htm
April 28th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Hello Friends, and Mr. MYK sahab,
Here is the quotation from s. janaki, a famous lady singer from the south.
In India, after the greatest singers, Mohd. Rafi, ghantasala & Kishore kumar, SPB is the greatest.
One Mr. MYK, I do not know what he means to say, His favourite rafi admired and praised ghantasala. The suvarna sundari song first sung by ghantasala in telugu was practised by rafi at least 30 times subsequently, still rafi could not match upto ghantasala’s rendering. In fact, rafi had told ghantasala at that time that I am not able to digest your culture of singing. Similiarly, Rafi’s song chal ud ja re panchi, was sung by ghantasala subsequently (first rafi had sung it) with ease in a more high pitch than rafi. This was told by rafi ji himself. I had association with SPB and P B srinivas, P suseela, Jesudas etc. from the south. All of are firm opinion that Both ghantasala and mohd. rafi are the greatest in playback singing and are legends revered by all. If ghantasala is greatest in south, rafi is greatest in bollywood.
To say SPB, Jesudas as greater than ghantasala, is saying kumar sanu is greater than rafi.
MYK sir, one point, Hear Bhagavad gita sung by ghantasala in telugu. It is a immortal recording. NO such talent exists in entire hindusthan.
Anyhow, carnatic and hindusthani legends are two corners in their own way. So pl. do not make such comparisons which are not fair.
Similarly, kishore is also one of the greatest singer. You know he was the only person who had the calibre to eclipse rafi and indeed he eclipsed. But do you know, till today, no body could eclipse ghantasala, Indeed ghantasala did not have competition when he was alive and there will not be. Padyams are a unique genre of singing in telugu and ghantasala was a master of that. Not even jesudas, even spb and balamuralikrishna could not render the padyams even to the extent of 50% of ghantasala leave songs. What do you know about the talent of ghantasala. Ask any telugu person about what i have written above, and you will get a fitting reply. Ghantasala is revered as master by all the southern playback singers. As rafi is called amar gayak in hindi, ghantasala is also called amar gayak in south. Your knowledge about ghantasala is very very limited. Incomplete knowledge is dangerous pl.
April 28th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
A small story… There were two person say X and Y who were debating on who is a better batsman. Is it Sachin or Ganguly. X was supporting Sachin and Y was supporting Ganguly.
X said .. Sachin is better than Ganguly bcos
1> He has more one day centuries and test centuries than Ganguly. Infect he has highest number of centuries/
2> He has more runs in onedayers and test matches
3> His average is far better than Ganguly in both form of cricket.
4> His strike rate (number of runs per 100 balls) is more than Ganguly.
5> He has scored runs everywhere in the world and almost against all opposition consistently where as Ganguly is a flop show against quality bowling like Australia and Pakistan.
6> Sachin has scored more half centuries than Ganguly.
7> Sachin can play every shot in the cricket book where as Gangulty is not comfortable against short pitch fast bowling.
8> Sachin is better runner between the wicket and more agile where as Ganguly is lazy and gets run out or gets his partner run out many times.
So Sachin is the best… Now it was Y’s turn to defend Ganguly… He said…
1> Lara has still more number of test runs than Sachin so Ganguly is better.
2> Lara has scored 500 runs in one inng and Sachin has never done that do Ganguly is better.
3> Ponting’s test average is slightly higher than sAchin so Ganguly is better.
4> Dravid has scored more double centuries than Sachin so Ganguly is better.
5> Once Ganguly scored 144 runs against Australia and Sachin failed in the same match so Ganguly is better.
6> Laxman scored 280 against Australia to win the game so Ganguly is better.
7> Jaysuria and Afridi can hit more sixes than Tendulkar so Ganguly is better.
8> Bradman’s average is 99 and much higher than Sachin so Ganguly is better.
9> Only Sehwag in Indian batsmen has scored 2 triple centuries (not Sachin) , so Ganguly is better.
Person X fainted. I asked person Y.. how did u manage such an argument? He said he was reading a debate going on between Rafi and kk fans and he got inspired by person named Ashu!. I fainted too.
April 28th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
myk,
It will be nice if you can mention number of songs sung by Rafi and kk from 1947 till 1980. Quantity means a lot. It tells who was most preferred singer by most of the MD’s? We all know that Rafi was ahead of kk till 1971 and then kk took over. However, numbers will give us more detail.
Ashu, success is relative term. For you, Ek main aue ek too could be a hit song just like Aachha to hum chalte hain. For me and others, it could be a stupid song with no value!
Many people said that Lata, Asha, RD and Bappi preferred KK over Rafi.
However List in favour Rafi is much longer… Manna Dey, Mukesh, Ravi, Naushad, Madan Mohan, SJ, SP, OP, SD and many more…
You could see that in collective opinion Rafi is far ahead of kk. Check Outlook poll and who was singer of milenium.
Raj, I did hear Ghantasala version of Chal ud ja re panchhi and I found Rafi version far better. It is individual choice. You can’t make a statement that Ghantasala was better than Rafi as you like him more. (OR are using same logic of Ashu to bring in someone else in comparison to defend poor kk? ).. He hehehe….
April 28th, 2008 at 11:31 am
Vipul..
u wrote:
MyK, thanks for the detail….
It means Rafi was ahead of kk till atlease 71.
1969: Rafi - 194, KK - 20
1970: Rafi - 131, KK - 47
1971: Rafi - 131, KK - 102
1972: Rafi - 95, KK - 137
kk just became popular from 69 onwards… and then overtook rafi in 72
My comments:
Can you also send % of success songs from 69 to 72?
And, Kishore did not become popular from 69..He become popular as a great singer from “GUIDE”, “TEEN DEVIYAAN”, “MR. X IN BOMBAY”, “JEWEL THIEF”, “PADOSAN” and many more….
April 28th, 2008 at 8:38 am
Ashu,
It is not possible to keep record of all the things that one reads. And by the way nobody needs to prove anything about Rafi. There was nobody like him and there will never be anybody like him. He is beyond comparision. My dear you picked on the wrong song to analyse the greatest singer of all times. “Yaad Na Jaaye” is one of the best ever songs. Check out other Rafi songs from the same movie. I think All these songs were recorded more or less at the same time. I don’t find anything of the sort that you are bickering about in this particular song. I know you are so insecure in comparing Kishore Kumar with Rafi that you started picking on the Rafi traits that majority of the listeners adored.
When a distraught lover is in pain,he sings with dry throat and moist eyes. You are mistaking Rafi sahab’s improvisation as something else. You only listen to Kisore Kumar songs which for most part sound good but are bereft of improvisation and are low on expression. So it’s not your fault. I can understand your frustration and ignorance of the nuances of music. You can only understand what you are exposed to.
If we apply the very same logic to Kishore Kumar’s songs, the most of them will be questionable and debatable. Ashu, It was a pleasure to have discussed with you and others on this forum. I will not be able to carry it any further, as I think I will be hurting Rafi’s legacy by discussing his pious name in a debate that is so disgusting as this one.
April 28th, 2008 at 7:03 am
MUKESH IS THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
TALAT SECOND
RAFI THIRD
FOURTH MANNA
FIFTH KISHORE
SIXTH BHUPINDER
SEVENTH SHAILENDRA SINGH
EIGHTH SAIGAL, SURESH WADKAR
NINTH KUMAR SANU
TENTH SONU NIGAM
April 27th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
with rafi, rajesh khanna would have been another jeetendra and not the superstar and #1 that he became in the 70s. he’d have never came close to the success he had with kishore. rafi was the main voice of rajesh khanna since mid 60s but failed to bring success. it’s only when kishore sang for rajesh khanna did the latter rise to unparalled heights of craze. such was the phenomenon, that hrishikesh mukherjee had to make a movie on it! would the same craze of aradhana come had the songs been in rafi’s voice? no, rafi’s voice was monotonously routine.
rafi’s voice was gone after 1973. his voice sounded so coarse by then. hear him in “ek rasta do rahi” - how poor his voice sounds in the opening lines. or listen to the rafi-asha duet zindagi ke safar mein and as soon as rafi comes into the song - i have to skip the track because it ruins the song. on the contrary, kishore’s voice was pristine - even in the late 80s. it just goes to show that kishore could stand the test of time that rafi could not.
main jat yamla pagla deewana would have been a much greater success had it been in the vocals of kishore. rafi’s soft voice just didn’t have the same level of resounding power. that song was a “khaike pan banaraswala” wannabe but couldn’t reach the same success in the masti songs.
if you ever want to hear how bad rafi can be in classical singing - just hear baat chalat a duet with krishnarao. he sounds like he’s falling down the stairs. of course, half of the teenagers that post have never even heard of the song because instead of listening to music - they just talk about things they know not much of.
if rafi had sang a song like meri bheeghi bheeghi se - it’d have been routine and trite. kishore added the freshness and novelty that rafi could not. that song alone is better than anything rafi ever sang in the 70s for a sad song category (i limited to 70s for the sake of corresponding comparison). nevermind a song like rhim jhim gire sawan which by then rafi’s voice was gone.
rafi wouldn’t dare attempt kishore’s numbers because he couldn’t bring the same success. aradhana, mere naina sawan bhadon, meri bheeghi bheeghi se, sharmilee, badi sooni sooni - kishore added the novelty that rafi could not. why is the hamaracd top 20 dominaed by kishore? barely one rafi.
asha outclassed rafi in aaja aaja main hoon pyar tera. she exemplarily stretched out the aaja aaja part that rafi lacked the spontaneity to deliver. pucho na yaar kya hua - another rafi - asha tandem song. asha’s version was more melodious and had more personality. there’s goes the talk of asha being afraid of rafi. chura liye - another rafi-asha number. asha carried rafi in that song. replace rafi with kishore and that song would have enjoyed the same popularity, in fact, in 1973 - it would have been much higher on the charts. rafi was lucky that nasir hussain got him that tune and got him to sing along with asha. asha added that unique, special, sultry touch in the opening lines of chura liye that gave the song so much popularity. rafi’s part was just plain and routine.
kishore > rafi.
April 27th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
Heard some Lata Kishore duets.Kishore badly trails Lata.While Lata’s voice is supple,modulatory,free and flexible,Kishore’s is wooden.Kishore’s pre-70s duets with Asha are superb.Yeh hawa yeh nadi ka kinara,kishti ka khamosh safar hai etc are as good as any.Kishore’s misfortune was that he didn’t sing much when he should have .When he burst upon the music scene his voice began to lose its quality very soon.He could have been a much better singer.But even at his best he could have come nowhere near Rafi.The reason is that great Lata herself trails Rafi.Where was any chance for a lesser mortal?
April 27th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Friends,
Kishore da is the *HOLY GRAIL* of music. As an audience I believe there is no singer atleast born who can bring the *MAGIC* of Kishore da.
April 27th, 2008 at 10:33 am
ASHU, RAJ AND OTHERS
AAP KUCH LOG KYA SABIT KARNA CHAHTE HEIN KE KISHORE KUMAR IS BETTER THAN RAFI JI, NO WAY.
KISHORE KUMAR KNEW RAFI SAHAB WAS MUCH GREAT SINGER THAN HIM OR ANY SINGER IN BOLLYWOOD. KISHORE KUMAR HAD ONCE SAID THAT;
JO GANA MAIN NAHIN GA SAKTA US GANE KO RAFI SAHAB NE BADI ASANI SE GA LIYA, WOH MUJHSE BADE SINGER THE.
KISHORE HIMSELF KNEW THIS FACT SO WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE TO COMPERE RAFI SAHAB WITH KISHORE KUMAR.
ITS TRUE EVERYBODY HAS THIER OWN TASTE IN MUSIC, SO IF YOU LIKE SOME OTHER SINGER THAT DOES NOT MEAN HE IS BETTER THAN RAFI SAHAB.
RAFI SAHAB SHINES FROM PLAYBACK SINGERS AND IS BEST FROM ALL THE SINGERS.
IT IS A FACT.
EXAPLE; KUMAR SANU AND UDIT BOTH ARE GOOD SINGERS BUT EVERYBODY KNOWS WHO IS BETTER, IT’S UDIT. IN THE SAME WAY KISHORE AND RAFI JI ARE BOTH GOOD SINGERS BUT RAFI JI WAS, IS AND ALLWAYS WILL BE AHEAD OF ALL THE PLAYBACK SINGERS FROM BOLLYWOOD AND THAT IS BECAUSE HE IS THE ONLY COMPLETE SINGER. HE COULD SING ANY THING, YOU NAME IT AND YOU GET IT IN RAFI SAHABS VOICE,
ROMANTIC
SAD
QAWALLI
BHAJAN
NAAT
SHABAD
FAST SONGS
SLOW SONGS
GHAZAL
CLASSICAL
ROCK N ROLL
THE LIST CAN GO ON AND ON, RAFI SAHAB HAS ALLSO SANG IN DEFFERENT LANGUEGES BEUTYFULLY LIKE;
PUNAJBI
BENGALI
GUJRATI
TAMIL AND SOME OTHERS, SO NO OTHER SINGER CAN TOUCH RAFI SAHABS VERSATILTY AND THE MELODIUS VOICE POWER AND EXPRESSION HE USED TO PUT IN A SONG,
I AM A FAN OF KISHORE TOO, BUT AS FAR AS VOICE AND VERSATILITY COMES IN NOBODY CAN BEAT RAFI SAHAB, I MEAN KISHORE IS A LEGEND, MUKSH IS LEGEND, TALAT IS A LEGEND, MAHENDRA KAPOOR IS A LEGEND, BUT ALL THESE LEGENDS CAN NOT COMPETE WITH RAFI SAHAB. RAFI SAHAB IS THE GREATEST LEGEND.
AS FAR AS GHANTASALA SAHAB IS CONCERND I THINK HE WAS NOT A ALL ROUNDER, I MEAN HE HAS NOT SANG ANY THING LIKE;
JOHN JANI JANARDHAN - NASEEB
MAIN JAT YAMLA PAGLA DEEWANA - PRATIGYA
AAJ MAUSAM BADA BEIMAN HAI - LOAFER
TUM JO MIL GAYE HO - HANSTE ZAKHAM
TERI BINDIYA RE - ABHIMAN
TUJHKO PUKARE MERA PYAR -NEEL KAMAL
BABUL KI DUAYEN LETI JA - NEEL KAMAL
KYA HUA TERA WADA - HAM KISI SE KAM NAHIN
PARDA HAI PARDA - AMAR AKBAR ANTHONY
TERI GALION MEIN - HAWAS
SAB KE REHTE LAGTA HAI JAISE - SAMJHOTA
HUSN WALE TERA JAWAB NAHIN - GHARANA
CHAUDVIN KA CHAND HO - CHAUDVIN KA CHAND
JANE WALO ZARA - DOSTI
CHAHUNGA MAIN TUJHE SANJ SAVERE - DOSTI
HAM KALE HEIN TO KYA HAU - GUMNAM
PARDESION SE NA AKHIYAN - JAB JAB PHOOL KHILEN
CHALKAYE JAM - MERE HAMDAM MERE DOST
KHILONA JAN KAR - KHILONA
PATHAR KE SANAM - PATHAR KE SANAM
SARE ZAMANE PE MAUSAM - AAP AAYE BAHAAR AAYI
DIL KA SOONA SAAZ - EK NARI DO ROOP
BADAN PE SITARE - PRINCE
YEH JO CHILMAN HAI - MEHBOOB KI MEHNDI
TUHI WOH HASEEN HAI - KHWAB
TU IS TARHA SE - AAP TO AISE NA THE
NAFRAT KI DUNIYA KO - HATHI MERE SATHI
THE LIST CAN GO ON AND ON,
HAS GHANTASALA SANG ANTHING LIKE THIS? I BET HE HAS NOT.
HE DID NOT HAVE VARIETY IN HIS SONG , HE WAS A CLASSICAL SINGER, SO WE CAN’T COMPERE HIM WITH RAFI SAHAB, RAFI SAHAB WAS ALL ROUNDER. I HAVE HEARD GHANTASALA SAHABS SONGS AND NO WAY I CAN COMPERE HIM OR ANY OTHER SINGER WITH RAFI SAHAB.
MOHAMMAD RAFI SAHAB KI AWAZ AUR RANGE TAK KOI NAHIN POHANCH SAKA AUR NA HI KOI POHANCH PAYEGA. HE WAS , IS , WILL BE THE GREATEST LEGEND OF BOLLYWOOD.
RAJA.
April 27th, 2008 at 6:39 am
Vikram, you are absolutely spot on, no amount of discussion and references will ever make Kishore better than Rafi. It doesn’t really matter if Lata and Asha are praising Kishore. In this case, Lata and Asha as you mentioned were jealous of Rafi. It is a fact that the majority consider Rafi the greatest, it has been said, writtenr, recorded etc. a billion times, and nothing will change that. If KK fans do not want to accept that, then it is purely out of ignorance. KK doesn’t match up to Rafi in any way, its really quite obvious. It’s also not fair comparing Rafi and Kishore, its like comparing apples and oranges, Rafi is miles ahead of any singer. It would be better discussing Rafi and Kishore songs that people like rather than comparing the two.
I have seen on this site that many of the points KK fans bring up are subjective, and not based on fact. The points they mention are purely opinions and perceptions, and doesn’t change anything about Rafi’s unmatched versatility and greatness.
Raj, ofcourse Rafi is the greatest of all time. Whatever happened after Aradhana makes no difference to Rafi’s greatness. Aradhana didn’t prove anything about Kishore’s ability to match Rafi, because he simply could not, it just was good for Kishore that his singing career finally took off, why compare him to the greatest Rafi when there is no comparison ?. So what if people took a liking to Kishore, people take a liking to many singers, it doesn’t prove that KK was the best.
Ghantasala doesn’t match up to Rafi in any way. There are better singers in the South than Ghantasala such as Yesudas and SPB and they also are no where near Rafi, so how can you compare Ghantasala to Rafi ?. Singing some identical songs to Rafi doesn’t prove anything as well, and in those cases the Rafi versions were better than the Ghantasala versions too.
If you mean to say KK’s repetoire is the greatest, then you are purely in an ignorant state of mind. Kishore’s repetoire is miles behind that of Rafi, SPB, Yesudas, Ghantasala, Lata, Asha etc. They all sang songs Kishore never sang and could not even attempt, so to say Ghantasala has not sung song that are identical to KK songs is not true. The truth is Kishore doesn’t have songs that are identical to any of the singers I mentioned above and more, simply because he did not have the talent and skill to render them. Please do your homework before coming to such conclusions.
Btw, according to RDB, his “prized composition” was sung by Rafi. I’ll let KK fans take a guess at what song that was. As Vikram pointed out, even RD and KK knew, and mentioned, that Rafi was the greatest.
Ashu, you are a strong KK defender against many of the Rafi fans here, but bringing up examples like singing “chak chak chak” in sur from ZKDH, is foolish, which is why I refrain from respoding to your views, as they are purely subjective and not based on fact. The opening of that ZKDH song was meant to be sung that way, it was totally in sur as all Rafi songs were, and the disco song yet again demonstrates Rafi’s phenomenal range.
April 27th, 2008 at 2:43 am
Ashu Sir
I must say that you are clever.I had showed up in my post the hollowness and illogicality of Asha’s baseless assertions.Re-read my post and you will find there that by Asha’s own criterion Kishore is not the best singer.Rafi is.If some people’s prejudices and biases grudge Rafi this position,then by the criterion of sur mein gaana which Asha was repeating,
Saigal and Mnna De are.Please follow the logic of her statement and don’t put your own words into her mouth.She didn’t use the word surile.
Your reply to Vikram also is short of logic.Lata,Asha,RD formed a coterie.Outside the coterie,practically every musical maestro acknowledges Rafi’s supremacy.Sudip in one of his posts has given a list of some such luminaries.It can be further expanded.
Ashu Sir,what is your criteria for someone who should occupy the highest position in the world of music?Let us know it.Is the only criterion the name of Kishore?If that is so,there is no scope for further debate.But if you have some norms,spell them out.Mine is capability of singing in all genres with equal ease at all pitches in a mellifluous voice.In film industry only two singers meet this criterion:Rafi and Lata,in that order.
Let me dispel some of your delusions.You have cited something that happened on Dhoom Macha Le.Your problem is that you choose the lowest denominator in support of your groundless assertions.One day they were singing light songs on that show and leaving aside one by Kishore all were by Rafi.That is only to meet your argument at your level.I don’t care a bit for what is presented as music on TV.It is an assault on sensibilities.On Farishta channel of Radio World Space a two hour programme of film qawwalis was broadcast.Rafi was the leading singer in many of them.Kishore in none.The best was,of course,Yeh ishq ishq hai ishq ishq.And Rafi alongwith Manna De sang it marvellously.Again if an Indian singer hasn’t sung anything worthwhile in this genre what justice has he done to this great Indian genre of singing?Take any genre Rafi stands out the tallest.Or do you think qawallis are not music,that is why they are shut out from TV shows.Aren’t you appalled by the show K4K? If you believe that what we hear and see in that show is music,then I think we are having a futile debate.We shoul have some common criteria for this debate to be fruitful otherwise we will be just flourishing our sword aimlessly.
Rafi’s range and melody are indeed phenomenal.Rafi fans must have heard that wonderful song from a now forgotten film:yeh raste hain piar ke.Zulf lehrai teri aur meri taqdeer bani.The prelude is sung in the style of Heer.And I have heard Heer by many many well-known as well as not so well-known singers including Lata’s botched up version in Heer Ranjha.Rafi’s is the best.Better than that of Mehdi Hassan,Gulam Ali,Reshma and Asa Singh Mastana.Unfortunately only the prelude is sung.I wish the whole song was Heer.Nevertheless this song is absolutely beyond the singing capabilities of any other singer–film or non–film.When I say this I mean it purely on objective grounds.Listen to the song and look at the range of notes employed at every step.
I don’t agree with those who say that no reference should be made to singers other than Rafi and Kishore when debating the issue.References are necessary for analogy and a comprehensive argument.The only problem with bringing in Ghantasala is that most of us may not be familiar with regional singers.As far as I am concerned Ataullah Khan of Pakistan may be a better singer than Ghantasala.But most people may not have heard his absolute gems in Punjabi.So no judgement can be made.
April 26th, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Ashu and others:
Let us for a second accept the following statements are individually true:
1. Kishore has sung 100% of his songs well. Rafi sang 80% of his songs well. (Lata, Asha)
2. Kishore overtook Rafi in the early 70s (Ashu).
Even then it does not mean that Kishore was a greater singer. The cumulative effect of the 80% Rafi songs could well be greater than 100% Kishore’s good songs.
That is exactly what I have been stating all along. It is not about individual songs or who overtook whom. The overall effect of Rafi for 35 years of music was greater than Kishore, possibly close to or more than Lata.
Let me end with an analogy…Usually when an express train enters a terminal station, few local trains may overtake it…That does not mean the overall velocity of the local trains are higher than the express train. It is the sustainability and effect that counts..
PS: Pyarelal on Rafi:
“He could sing in any range or octave. If today’s composers are to flower, the Almighty should create nine Rafis more! Can we find even a single song of his that is badly rendered?”
-So clearly Pyarelal differs with Lata. Greats do have their opinions.. Let us respect them but nothing is sacrosanct…
April 25th, 2008 at 9:40 am
Dhani ram ji,
U wrote:
Vipul,what about:Hum bekhudi mein tum ko pukare chale gaye?Something beyond the capabilities of Kishore.
my reply:
Boss, Indivisual taste vary from people to people. Song from Kaala Panni was great, but i would prefer song from SHarmilee over Kaala Paani.
- Kaise kahe hum, Pyaar ne humko kya kya khel dekhaye
- Dosto mere kisse ho gaye khatm sare, ab na koi pukare main sharab pi raha hu….from different movie…
Dhani RamJi, WHy RDB said Rafi went wrong in “Aaja Aaja main hu pyar tera”?
Here is reply for ur doubt on Asha’s comment:
u wrote:
Another amusing thing that Asha said was:Kishore is liye sabse barey singer the kyonki veh hamesha sur mein gaate the.
My reply:
Asha ne e nahi kaha ki…Sehgal or other singers were not surile….She was talking abt Kishore..my dear friend.
But ha…Lata ne e jarror kaha hai ki….Kishore was great in all songs, Rafi was great in few songs so as Mukesh….
Hope u understood it…
April 25th, 2008 at 9:05 am
Dear Vikram,
You supposed to share all songs Kishore sang in chorus
. Last month you claimed that Kishore sang in Chorus. Pls. send reliable link
Note: Generous request, don’t upload ur website with false information
FYI, i don’t disowned Rehman because his favourite is Rafi, it is not only my view, but also my music knowledge view that he put 90% effort on sound than vocal or melody. I like only few songs of his composition.
Boss., my believe is, any song should impact on ur soul or mind on its first release which is 90% true in case of great MDs like RDB, SDB, LP, SJ and many. If same song is repeating numerous time on Radio, tv or any entertainment device, it implies u r forced to listem.
e.g.
worst songs of this century.
- All songs from Rand De basanti (except Lata/Rehman song)
- All songs from Nayak (I believe Nayak was fantastic movie, but music score was really worst, due to this film was flopped, and same music was hit in Tamil)
- Fanna from Yuva and there are many more..
U said quite right :
No amount of discussion and references will ever make Kishore Kumar better than Rafi as far as singing goes
I would like to swap few word from here and there…It should be>
No amount of discussion and references will ever make Rafi better than Kishore in any field especially Playback singing
I don’t understand onething, If lata, asha and RD praise Kishore then u said they are twisting their comment, they are loser and blah blah..
World knows who is loser and who is gainer.
For evidence, we can see “K for Kishore”, dedicated programme on genious Kishore, and fyi this programme is on his singing talent, not acting, composition, direction, production or lyricist…
I would like to clear ur doubt. Noone was jealous to rafi…Rafi was great human being, and everyone respect het. I think U have not read my last few blog on Lata’s comment abt Rafi. It is you people originating all fake or twisted stories abt other legends. I don’t know why you are talking on behalf of millions that Rafi is great. I respect ur view, but don’t say it is world view.
There are many evidence that even today’s MD prefer Kishore..
Pls. watch “DHOOM MACHA DE”…Babul sang “Kuch to log kahenge”…He sang good, but instead of praising babul judges like (Shankar - MD, Prasoon JOshi - lyricist and Sharmila Tagore) spoke abt great Kishore. They said great things abt Kishore which are not new though.
I differ on Rafi’s range…..If his range was phenomenal, then why could not he sing …
chak chak chakak chak from “Zamane ko dikhana hai” in sur.
April 25th, 2008 at 7:27 am
Raj, I think we ar comparing Rafi and Kishore, so no need to bring ghanasala in comparison… just stick to subject…. a sincere request…..
April 25th, 2008 at 1:29 am
MyK, thanks for the detail….
It means Rafi was ahead of kk till atlease 71.
1969: Rafi - 194, KK - 20
1970: Rafi - 131, KK - 47
1971: Rafi - 131, KK - 102
1972: Rafi - 95, KK - 137
kk just became popular from 69 onwards… and then overtook rafi in 72. The competiton ended in 80 after Rafi’s death.. Now lets see who was ruling hindi music for longer time? I guess 3rd standard student can answer this easy math question.
April 25th, 2008 at 1:23 am
A R Rehman…
—————–
most of today’s Md have said he is no 1.
Ashu, you asked me to put excellent songs of Rehman… ( as MD)
here is the list.. I am sure I can put more than this…
1> Ahista ahista… (Swadesh) Listen to this one and you will realise power of music and lyrics and vocal of Udit (much smoother than kk)
2> Mitwa - Lagaan (Udit got film fare)
3> Baar baar han - Lagaan
4> O palan hare - Lagaan
5> Ramta Jogi - Taal
6> Roja- Title -
7> O ajnabi - Dil se
8> Jiya jale - Dil se
9> Oori Chhori - Lagaan
10> Barso re Barso - Guru
11> Taal - Title
12> Preyasi - Taal
13> Bombay - Tu hi re
14> Earth - Rut aa gayi re — Sukhwinder Singh amazing here…
I can put more.. but i think it is enough for u dear..
and by the way.. all Rafi’s songs were not high pitch… I must say.. he has used right pitch depending upon the song…
Bechara kk… can’t go on high pitch so has to settle for low and medium all the time!
April 24th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Mr. MYK and other rafi fans.
You people say rafi is all time great. What do you mean by that all time. What happened during aradhana. why did the best playback singer award slipped from rafi. If rafi is all time great and incomparable, why did people get a liking for kishore da. please hence do not bluff about rafi as all time great, legend of legends etc. There are many writers here i.e. kishore da fans who have many times said that kishore is certainly better than rafi, so where is rafi’s all time greatness. Leave kishore kumar’s greatness against rafi, i advise you all to read my post 943, wherein i have detailed about another great legend from the south viz., shri ghantasala venkateshwara rao, who is also miles ahead of rafi. Hear shri ghantasala from my post 943 (i have posted some great songs of his), and you will forget rafi for lifetime. Shri ghantasala’s voice is the extreme melodious and majestic one and has the great attraction completely similar to our all time favourite kishore da.
Kishore kumar had eclipsed rafi, whereas shri ghantasala was contemporary to rafi and had some identical songs of rafi in telugu, where he performed greater than rafi. Since Shri ghantasala passed away in 1974, i think this great legend has not sungs identical to the great kishore kumar songs.
Lata ji, manna de all were for kishore kumar’s greatness after his entry while rafi was still there. So, rafi got eclipsed by kishore. There are greatest singers than rafi.
April 24th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
If Lata says that all KK songs were good, then she is out of her mind. We all know what he sang in the 80’s. Most of it was way below his standards. There were so many songs that he just throated. Yes, if she had said that whatever he sang before the 80’s was good, I would have agreed with her contention. Ashu, I think it’s the other way around. You disowned Rehman because his favourite is Rafi. Lata herself has said that among the present day musicians, Rehman is the only one who knows music. On this one also I don’t agree with her as like you I am not a big Rehman fan. Lata and Asha are known for twisting their tongue as per the situation and their convenience. It’s a known fact that Lata in her hey days played dirty politics with other singers.
Suman Kalyanpur is a perfect example of lata’s filth. She finished her off. Rafi was always ahead of his contemporaries, Lata included. He was so popular and matchless as a singer that she just could not succeed in her nasty designs. All the MD’s of that era just did not listen to her against Rafi. Later on Asha joined her in bad mouthing Rafi. It all started when RD Burman came into limelight. He along with The duo of sisters formed a cabal against Rafi. After almost a decade he realised his folly and went back to Rafi. It didn’t matter whether he used Rafi as he should have. He was more comfortable with Kishore. RD-Kishore combo gave us some of the best songs of the 70’s. Whatever Rafi sang for RD was pure gold. I must say that Kishore Kumar’s respect for Rafi was unwavering. He never said a thing against him. He knew how to coexist with his collegues, which unforunately Lata and Asha did not know. Hats off to Kishore Kumar! He was never jealous of rafi’s success. But the sister duo was always over-jealous of him.
They are still finding it difficult to cope up with the fact that Rafi indeed was the best ever. Their ego is as big as the universe. They are making a fool of themselves by demeaning Rafi. Asha once went on record saying that nobody could win Rafi sahab. To me it implies that in fact, according to her Rafi was the best. The two them are in a habit of giving a spin according to the situation. They have put themselves in such a position that now nobody believes them. Ashu, next time somebody goes to interview them on Rafi watch out for what they have to say about him. I am sure they will sing in chorus that nobody can beat Rafi.
No amount of discussion and references will ever make Kishore Kumar better than Rafi as far as singing goes. Everybody, including Kishore and RD in their heart of hearts felt that way. They even expressed it on some occasions. Well, the fact remains that they were stating the truth. Rafi’s range was phenomenal. That’s what RD thought. As an entertainer there was nobody better than Kisore, I concur. He could sing, act, direct and produce films, dance, and put up a comedy show. In being multifaceted he scores over Rafi. But, as a singer Rafi leaves everybody far behind, Kishore, Lata and Asha included.