An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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April 18th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Vikram, very well said…
When Lata refused to sing with Rafi. she was at loss and Suman Kalyanpur came in. She realised it soon and soon patched up with Rafi…
Most of the MD’s sacrificed Lata but did not compromise on Rafi…. It tells us a lot….
Ashu, I repeat… K for KK is one of the worst music programs. (not bcos of KK but bcos of kind of participants and judges) I am not complaining but telling u the fact. If you have problem with my comment then stop reading them… and do not complain
April 18th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Major but funny goof-up…
—————————
Before Ashu starts crying hoarse that I am impersonating Piyush, he is my cousin visiting me in the Bay area. He is lot younger (26), studies MBA in the East coast. And just like me a Rafi fan (he likes Yesudas big time, as well). He is following the debate and has been using the same bedroom computer and his name was cached..
That was actually me (Sudip)..
BTW, the Lata interview is self-contradictory.. On one hand she says “these day’s people stress on rhythm a lot. We get influenced by western tunes” and then she goes on to praise the singer who sang them the most! Weird..
April 18th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
great….. now you are telling me that you all have a greater knowledge of music than lata mangeshkar, and know the inner psyche of lata. What you all just said was that she at age such an age has an agenda with a person who is already dead, and will manipulate statements in the media, to bring that man down for a few rupees she didnt coz of royalty issues in the 1960’s….. WOW that is a huge chip to keep on your shoulder…….LOL i think the only people carrying a chip on their shoulders are you lot and not lata mangeshkar. LOL at vikram “lata and rafi were at WAR” you lot are hilarious, and also about that statement of lata and asha not being to handle that rafi was far superior to them…….. they are female singers, they competed in a different competition to male singers in awards, they have less testosterone and are biologically different to men. Men and women always have different categories to compete in, there is no mixed therefore i never compare asha or lata to rafi or kishore
April 18th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Hi ,
I find people fighting in every forum. Please stop fighting. Artists are God’s special creation. Accept them with their strengh and weekness.
Music is like food. Every person has different choice of food same think applies to music. All singers are great their own way.
Many people blame artists for their behaviour. Do they think themselves as pure sole ? Observer their behaviour in Train , in Ques or in public places. Selfishness surface everywhere in their behaviour.
God has given every artist whatever he or she is deserved.
So stop fighting and start enjoying music !!!
April 18th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
dear sudip,
u wrote:
But my bigger problem with Kishore is the singularity in approach. The approach to “Changari koi bhadke” and “Salam-e-Ishq” is similar, though the moods and genres are entirely different.. Same tone, same taan, same embellishments, a few deliberate falsettos here and there
FYI: This was not singularity approach. I surprised to read ur view on above 2 songs. This is completely wrong.
Problem with Rafi, he always tried to sing song in high pitch which was not good always. If you think that is best then i am sorry.
Pls. see “K for Kishore” Asha Bhosle will be part of this show from today. Pls. watch and analyse her comment on Kishore. I think She is right person to judge her contemporary singers, i think she is more knowledge than u and me.
Vipul, U wrote, K for Kishore is worst program
. Pls. don’t watch and don’t complain.
April 16th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Raj,
we don’t care much about lata’s & asha’s comment, as they both were playing games against rafi right from the 60s, rafi is the greatest…
naushad termed rafi as greatest, and so the all others like sj,sdb, mm, opn, illaya raja, yesudas,manna dey,spb and lots of other great music personalities consider rafi as the best…
with due respect to kishore and all others, rafi is the finest we ever had…
April 16th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Raj and AB,
Lata and Asha are two sore losers. They could never come to terms with the fact that there was a singer who was way better then them. They always gave Kishore Kumar a run for his money in the duets that they sang with him. But when it came to Rafi, he completely overshadowed them. The duets that Rafi sang with Asha and Lata are identified with him. Lata had a royalty issue with Rafi in the 60’s. He refused to be drawn into her rat race for money. She stopped singing with him for three years. Anyway, it was her loss. Most of the music directors used other female singers alonside Rafi for their compositions, Asha included. Asha sang lots of duets with Rafi during this period. What does it tell us about her loyalities? On one hand her sister was at war with Rafi and on the other she was taking full advantage of the situation. Asha has always been opportunistic. She doesn’t even mention OP Nayyar in her interviews, the man who made her. In fact, she was not on good terms with RD Burman later in his life, the man who sustained her career.
Kishore Kumar was no doubt a rare talent, but when compared with Rafi-he comes second best.
April 16th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Raj:
No one is saying Lata has a personal agenda. But it is an opinion and a well-respected opinion. So are opinions of Manna De, Hemant Kumar, Talat, Mukesh, Laxmikant, Pyarelal, A R Rahman, Yesudas, SP Balasubramaniam, Ismail Durbar, Anu Malik, Sreya Ghosal, Sonu Nigam, Naushad, Khayyam, OP Nayyar, Anup Jalota, Santanu Moitra, Jaikishan, Roshan, SD Burman, Madan Mohan and scores of others who have mentioned Rafi as their favorite in public (I am sure Kishore and Mukesh have their followers as well; Anil Biswas preferred Talat). But everytime a jury has been asked to vote collectively, the honor went to Rafi..
Your logic has circular fallacy. Because if the opinion of the best is the one that only counts, Saigal is the all-time best because your all-time best considered Saigal as his guru.
There is no end to an anecdotal argument. Lets talk music.
April 16th, 2008 at 10:12 am
The Mangeshkar sister twist statements as per the situation. It is well known fact. In one the interviews she even mention that “Mukesh was a good classical singer, music composers should have given him classical songs to sing”. The fact remains that they never liked any one superior to them.
Ravindra Jain once mentioned Lata Ji didn’t like me promoting new singers.
April 15th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Ok, i know everone has their own opinions on who is better, and each to their own, but lets face it, we don’t know as much about singing as kishore or rafi does, so the judge of who is better should be the one and only lata mangeshkar…. in this following interview i have lata mangeshkar says : “While speaking about other yesteryear artists, Lataji liked Kishore Kumar the best. While she feels that singers like Mohd. Rafi and Mukesh were good in most of their songs, Kishore Kumar was good in every song. Kishore Kumar’s sad songs have been her favourite”
here is the link if you do not believe me
http://indiafm.com/features/2007/07/02/2825/index.html
this should stop the quarrelling, also if you say lata doesnt know what she is talking about or has some sort of personal agenda against rafi you sir are an IDIOT! (it’s lata mangeshkar the greatest singer india has ever produced, what does she have to prove?)
April 15th, 2008 at 9:24 am
Dhani Ram wrote:”I had borrowed from a Kishore fan who also sat through Kishore session.At the end he also admitted that it was sheer headache to go through.”
Dhani.. I understand your point completely. I do not like Kishore’s approach to singing-there is no poignancy or mellow about it..Kishore’s fans would counter it by saying its masculine, but we are not judging WWF wrestlers, are we?
But my bigger problem with Kishore is the singularity in approach. The approach to “Changari koi bhadke” and “Salam-e-Ishq” is similar, though the moods and genres are entirely different.. Same tone, same taan, same embellishments, a few deliberate falsettos here and there. OK… For arguments sake lets accept Kishore’s voice was golden. Even gold when viewed repeatedly could get monotonous.
Talat was indeed poignant. But he never had Rafi’s depth and resonance..The ability to render an alap from the navel was not there.
Mukesh to me was bassy but limited. I love some of his songs..
April 15th, 2008 at 9:05 am
AB wrote: “Let me ask you this.
Is there any intrinsic merit in making things difficult just for the
heck of it? In physics, for example, there are usually two approaches
to solving a problem - one is the time-tested brute force technique,
the domain of formidable tour de force’ers. The other is the intuitive
way, simpler in design but extremely elegant and almost always, profoundly
insightful.”
-Nice comment. For the first time a Kishore-fan has penned something substantial and of some literary merit. BUT………………
There is no intrinsic merit of choosing a difficult approach if it is indeed solving the SAME PROBLEM (”same problem” is the catch). But if the problems are indeed very different they cannot be approached the same way in the first place..A kindergarten Math cannot be compared with a Grade V Math and even if a kindergartener has got 100% he/she cannot be compared with a Fifth grader who has got 90%. It is simply not apples-to-apples….
Kishore’s natural ability to make things simple is commendable. And I love him for that. But stating that it makes him the greatest ever is a stretch, just as it is a stretch to regard Virender Sehwag the greatest batsman purely based on his natural ability to hit the ball out of the park..
Ok.. No more analogies .. Let us take the simplest benchmark-Lata M who is arguably the numero uno among female singers. Who do you think is Lata’s nearest male counterpart? If you say its Kishore, we have to admit that male contribution in Hindi playback singing is 50% that of the female. There are tons of genres where the male number one would not have any answer to the female one.. Take for example Lata’s haunting melodies. I do not think Kishore has anything that renders similar feelings or even close to those.
Now replace Kishore with Rafi in that comparison..Suddenly you can match every single female number- haunting, bhajan, ghazal, romantic, patriotic, thumris, peppy, Punjabi heer with a male counterpart.. Suddenly the male contribution does not look so pathetic and the Mangeshkar dominance diminishes..
Maybe your “Nauuughty girl” realizes that well! I would say “Wise girl”
- someone who ditched OP Nayyar once the job was done!
April 15th, 2008 at 12:02 am
AB: You mentioned “Recently we heard
Asha make a comment that Kishore was approx 1.5 times better than Rafi.”
When you quote someone, it is customary to provide a reference footnote. Just saying “Asha said so… ” tantamounts to misquote and forgery. I do not do not for a moment doubt Asha prefers Kishore (just as Manna, Hemanta, Talat, Mukesh preferred Rafi and we gave links to those references unlike you).
And about the “nauuughty girl”…She does not recognize OP who made her. How can you expect her to have an iota of respect for a saint like Rafi? She does not command my respect either..
Your argument centers around the great natural talent Kishore had and no one doubts it. You have showered all adjectives that we recently heard about Sehwag’s batting.. But saying Sehwag is the best batsman around is stretching it far…
April 14th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
JJ,
I have seen K for KK show few times. I think it is one of the worst music program. Look at the judges (Sudesh, Bappi Amit) and anchor (Babul). Most of the times their comments do not make any sense.
And if they start a show on Rafi, these 4 people won’t even get a chance to participate, forget about judging.
and by the way, Rafi is still more popular than KK. Rafi was singer of millennium. do not you know that?
Vipul
April 14th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Dhani Ram,
Very nice post (908) indeed. Just now I was listening to Rafi’s song… “Watan pe jo fida hoga.. amar wo nojawan hoga”… Mindblowing control over voice. I am sure if we just compare vocal, Rafi is miles ahead… a true gifted singer….
The true capability of singer is decided by how easily he/she can sing diffcult songs. Most of KK’s songs were very easy. I have kk’s mp3 (cd) with about 150 songs or so and most of the time I fast forward many songs as it is a real pain listening to those songs. Now many are reallly popular songs like…
1> vada tera vada
2> Ek main aur ek too
3> Apni to jaise taise
4> Jay jay shiv shankar
5> Nanio pe sapna
6> Sagar kinare (I skip this one too as I find kk’s voice really harsh and thick .. I guess it is apersonal choice)
but I still skip them.
Again, everyone has different music taste. I even pefer to listen to SP or Udit Narayan over kk as I find SP and Udit’s voce more melodious than kk.
KK was good but there are many better than him.
Rafi is just beyond comparison.
Note: It is strictly mu view and people have all rights to differ.
April 13th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
The topic of ‘level of difficulty` and associated abilities of singers
has re-surfaced. Let me dwell on this briefly. The l.o.d. displayed is
a perfectly valid canon by which to evaluate a singer. But it is not
the only one nor is it the most important, IMO of course. Some of us
place a higher premium on originality (paradoxically, it ain’t easy,
originality). That is why we reward Kishore - not because he was capable
of great feats of swaracrobatics (to be sure, he wasn’t), or had a sweeping
range over all the octaves (he didn’t), but because in the realm of musical
expression he was supremely original. Let me ask you this.
Is there any intrinsic merit in making things difficult just for the
heck of it? In physics, for example, there are usually two approaches
to solving a problem - one is the time-tested brute force technique,
the domain of formidable tour de force’ers. The other is the intuitive
way, simpler in design but extremely elegant and almost always, profoundly
insightful. In music, Kishore Kumar could do the kind of magic beyond the
pale of even the most formidable technicians. Who would you have sing
“Chingaari koi bhadke” or “Zindagi ka Safar”? A Bhimsen, whose Sa is
as static (and ecstatic) as can be or a Kishore, who didn’t give a damn
about Sa (I remember him telling Lata rather candidly, “Tum to jaanti ho
mujhe yeh Sa Re Ga Ma kuch nahiN aataa”!). Like many of his gems, these
are ’simple` tunes made immortal by sheer weight of expression, by a man
who could be profound without trying hard. It was never the kind of
delivery that beckoned, “I’m difficult and I beg of you to take
notice.”
Manna Dey has an interesting story to tell. It was the practice session
for the recording of the Padosan classic “Ek Chatur Naar” that
had brought them all together - Kishore, R.D. Burman, Mehmood and
Manna. Manna had gone in well-prepared intending “to teach Kishore
a lesson.” To paraphrase Manna: “As soon as we started it got utterly
hopeless for me. Here I was reproducing the song note-for-note, adhering
rigidly to the grammar while Kishore was out there having fun and had
captured the SPIRIT of the song effortlessly. I was sunk.” I give Manna a
very solid A for that honest and accurate assessment. Recently we heard
Asha make a comment that Kishore was approx 1.5 times better than Rafi.
Nauuughty girl, but right on the dot.
April 11th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Dear ashu
do u know what said by Naushand for Mohd rafi,when people speak abount Naushand Ali they said That he is the man who changed the world of Music with Mohd Rafi voice and he is the man who made Lata ji.
jest take out Madan Mohan,Naushand,shammi Kapoor,SJ,RD,SD and LP you will get hundreds of great songs singed by Mohd Rafi about other two great singer Mukesk and KK, Muskesk jest take out Raj Kapoor,SJ and Majon Kummar and from KK jest take out RD,Mr Bachchan and Rajesh Khanna they will loss there 70% of there singing that is truth
KK was great and will be great but it not mean that he is best male play back singer.
one of friends at Mohd rafi site asked who are the best 3 playback singer and he asswered the 1st was Mohd Rafi 2nd is Mohd rafi and 3rd will be Mohd rafi ………..
April 8th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Sudip
I always appreciate your comments and my own understanding of music has deepened by reading them.I have learnt a great deal from this debate though from the beginning I have held the view that no debate was called for.It was somewhat of a shock for me that on this forum Rafi’s supremacy was being questioned.I have always held that Rafi has been by far the greatest singer ever.
I have nothing against Kishoreda.Ashu loves him.You also love him though only next to Rafi.I have no complaint.Your description of me as a purist is also perhaps accurate.I can appreciate a musically knowledgeable person like Ashu preferring Kishore to all other singers.But what disturbs me greatly is that what started in 70’s has finally led to what is happening these days.Sudip,do you love Talat and Mukesh as well? Where are these singers in sa re ga ma pa or Indian Idol? They are obliterated.I ask college students if they have heard their names.Most haven’t heard Talat’s and many not even Mukesh’s.Rafi,of course,survives but it is not the best of Rafi.Not even the best of Kishore.And it all started with Kishore (for which Kishore was not responsible).I have been trying to obtain a CD of Talat’s songs but in vain.
Now,Sudip,I have a question for you.For Ashu also but I can anticipate Ashu’s answer.Recently I heard three CDs of Rafi,Mukesh and Kishore,each containing more than a hundred songs of each singer.My ever held opinion was confirmed.Mukesh was excellent from beginning to end.Rafi was incomparably melodious in 80 % songs.I don’t like Rafi’s Chahe mujhe koi junglee kahe type of stuff.Kishore CD I had borrowed from a Kishore fan who also sat through Kishore session.At the end he also admitted that it was sheer headache to go through.There was an occasional gem here and there.Which lover of music will not like Ik ladki bheegee bhaagee see or pal pal dil ke saath tum rehti ho or yeh jo mohabbat hai etc. but such were far and few in a sea of loud and jarring orchestra and jaded and wooden compositions.The problem is that Kishore sang too many songs and so did Rafi.Whereas much of Rafi is wonderful,much of Kishore is offensive to the finer musical sensibilities.Now my questiion to you is whether you feel the same way.I just request you to get hold of a CD of Kishore containing 150 odd songs and sit through it and tell me how you feel.
I have an important observation to make.Before Rafi came on the scene Sehgal type of singing held sway.Mukesh sang like Sehgal to begin with.Only yesterday I heard a Kishore song of early 50s sung in Sehgal style.Rafi initiated a completely new style of singing and all other singers then followed the master.Mukesh,Kishore,Manna,Mahendra gained great success by imitating the style of their master,Mohammed Rafi.
I had long forgotten a wonderful song of Rafi which I heard a few days back on Radio World Space:Jaane bahar husn tera bemisaal hai ,wallah kamaal hai arey wallah kamaal hai.Sudip,Vikram,Vipul,MYK,XXX,Probal you all must have heard it.What do you think of it?In this one song Rafi has employed more swaras than most singers do in their entire singing career.An exaggeration? Hardly if one has an ear for genuine music.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Rafi fans are jealous because of K for Kishore Kumar show on Sony! No body remembers Rafi now. After few years Rafi will be smoke. Love you Kishore-da.
April 5th, 2008 at 10:39 pm
“Panthi hu main us path ka” is a well-sung, but pretty easy song. Any good Ranindra Sangeet singer like Debabbrata Biswas or Hemant Kumar will sing it with ease because your guru copied it from Rabindra Sangeet tune. And it is not of the “Barbad-e-Mohabbat” genre.
BTW, I listened to Payal wali as well..I think it is possibly one of the badly sung songs of Kishore. There is hardly any pitch modulation, any ups and downs that any Raga based song demands. I am sure if he sang that for Naushad or Madan Mohan, they would have junked it.
April 3rd, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Dear Vikram,
Singing in chorus is not offence or sin. My comment was reply to mr. xxx blog.
Vikram, i am eager to know which are the songs kishore sang in chorus. I could not find it in my reasearch, even AMit did not tell me.
Can you tell me or publish some reliable source?
Aur ha,,,i never think singing in chorus is belittle…
dear sudip:
Kishore would be there even if all songs were of “barbad-e mohabbat” (Laila Majnu) genre. I feel Kishore was much more talented than what his work reflected.
Pls. hear “Panthi hu main us path ka”
March 20th, 2008 at 10:44 pm
“Indirectly you guys are not appreciating Kishore’s talent and achievement, and giving credit to westen music.”
-This is your problem Ashu. You see things in black and white…When I say, Kishore was aided by changing trends, you take it as “Kishore did not have talent without western music”.
To me things are not black and white..Imagine if all songs of 70s were of “barbad-e mohabbat” (Laila Majnu) genre. Where would Kishore be? That does not mean he does not have talent; it just means that certain factors assist certain singers. If you simply follow Dev Anand numbers from the 50s to the 70s, the trend is obvious. To a puritan listener like Dhani Ram, lot of 70s numbers was “not music”. While I respect his opinion, I think it was markedly different.
My favorite Western-influenced number is “Ek haseen shaam ko” (Rafi, Dulhan Ek Raat ki). But that was classic Madan Mohan, not the mainstream western beats that RD and Bappi introduced. Very few people would even know that song, let alone knowing that it is a western influenced one.
March 20th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Ashu, as far as singing in chorus is concerned, it was in fact Kishore Kumar who sang in chorus many a times in Rafi songs. You can ask Amit Kumar to verify this. Did it belittle Kishore? No, not at all. He proved his brilliance as a playback singer. Please don’t mock chorus singers. They are definitely good. That’s why they are there in the first place. You never know we could have another Kishore Kumar from that talented lot.
March 18th, 2008 at 8:45 am
Mr. xxx,
I did not want to reply ur blog, but i could not resist myself:
Here u wrote:
tere bina zindagi se , tum aa gaye ho were the compositions of caliber to turn any mediocre singer to superstar
My reply:
FYI: kishore become super singer since 69, Aandhi released in 1976. DO you imagine what would have happened to Rafi if Naushad would have not given him chance…He might have ended his career singing in chorus..Pls. think twice before writing nonsense….
March 17th, 2008 at 9:53 am
Sudip,
I am completely disagree with you on western influence in indian cinema during 70s. Indirectly you guys are not appreciating Kishore’s talent and achievement, and giving credit to westen music.
What abt following songs, are they not westen influenced songs?
1. Kis kisko pyaar karo
2. All songs from Teesari Manzil
3. dekkho logon e kaisa zamman (70s)
4. puchho na yaar kya hua (early 80s)
There are many songs sung by Rafi…
It means Rafi and kishore, both got opportunities to prove their verstality in western as well as indian, after all they were playback singer not pure classical singers. Playback singer must have all these qualities.
Why don’t you accept that Kishore was talented enough to mould himself in any style compared to any singers.
Kishore never changed as singer during 70s and 80s, he was same kishore who sang beautiful songs in 60s.
Manish, I am not sure abt Rafi’s world visit in 69, but info which i got from vaikuntam (one music player in RDB’s group) that RD wanted Kishore to sing all other songs, and after “Roop Tera Mastana” SDB sticked to ED’s decision.