An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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March 15th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
ref to p 899::
sudip ji,
nice post but i think composition wise kishore’s songs were better in year 1975, his songs from aandhi and khusboo were excellent and remeber that gulzar was never the mainstream film maker..
junior roshan got the award for the jullie(1975), but i consider aandhi, khusboo as much higher quality albums than other commercial hits like julie, sholay & khel khel mein…
tere bina zindagi se , tum aa gaye ho were the compositions of caliber to turn any mediocre singer to superstar, on the other hand that amaanat song, had it been delivered by someone else, it would have been gone unnoticed…
in 70s rafi ji hardly got any tunes of his caliber, may b coz of changing trends, how eaisly he rendered all those tunes of 70s…
March 15th, 2008 at 10:59 am
retyping: I have more time
———————————
“MM, SJ, LP switching to Kishore”
-Here I am partly with Ashu. Though it is wrong that they “switched” to Kishore. It is better to phrase “MM, SJ, LP switched from Rafi monopoly”.
But what is not clear is whether that was driven my merit or the market (i.e. producers-see my post 883).
Kishore’s rise owed as much to technology as to the Burmans and the changing trend. Towards the end of the 60’s two things happened:
1. Introduction of a more sensitive recording systems, that would capture every breath and accentuate every ups or downs.
2. Increasing Western influence and more instrumentation
I learnt from Manna De’s account that Talat Mehmood perished because of #1. Talat’s quivering voice was over-accentuated by the sensitive recording equipment, so much so, that he had to leave the playback singing scene entirely. Everyone struggled other than Kishore. Because of Kishore’s deep, barritone voice he was able to overcome both the changes. The voice outpowered both instrumentation and sensitive recording instruments. Manna also mentioned that despite initial struggles, Rafi was able to adapt to it thanks to his relentless “riyaz”.
I also think that the nature of music changed in 1970s, thanks to Western influence. The mainstream songs of the 1970s suited Kishore. If you look at the bulk of songs in 1970s, they needed clean, open-throated voice with clear diction and simple approach. That was tailored for Kishore. Even me, as an MD, would have taken Kishore for such songs. To me, personally, a song like “Ek main aur ek tu” has no marginal value or contribution in the history of film music. Even if that song hadn’t happened, it would not change anything for me..But that’s me, the multitude love such songs from the 1970s. Whenever Music directors needed to move out of the mainstream path they needed Rafi and in some cases Yesudas, Bhupinder, etc.
1975 was largely touted as Kishore’s year.. He had so many excellent songs in 1975 like the ones in Aadhi, Mehbooba, Ghar. But to me, the best song of that year, qualitatively, came from Rafi. The song was “Door rehkar na karo baat” (Amaanat). But the song was not a mainstream 70s song. That is the reason for Kishore’s numerical superiority in the 70s.
March 15th, 2008 at 3:16 am
ashu,
do you think 1977 is the only time rafi went on world tour? yes, he gave a bbc interview in 77, but he travelled the world on MULTIPLE occasions!
1969, during the recording of aradhana - was ANOTHER OCCASION where rafi went on world tour. i should have clarified this in the last post.
he even had high demand in holland!
March 15th, 2008 at 2:27 am
“MM, SJ, LP switching to Kishore”
-Here I am partly with Ashu. Though it is wrong that they “switched” to Kishore. It is better to phrase “MM, SJ, LP switched from Rafi monopoly”.
But what is not clear is whether that was driven my merit or the market (i.e. producers-see my post 883).
I also think that the nature of music changed in 1970s thanks to Western influence. The mainstream songs of the 1970s suited Kishore. If you look at the bulk of songs in 1970s, they needed clean, open throated voice with clear diction and simple approach. That was tailored for Kishore. Even me, as an MD, would have taken Kishore for such songs. To me, personally, a song like “Ek main aur ek tu” has no marginal value in the history of film music. Even if that song hadn’t happened, it would not change anything for me..But that’s me- the multitude love such songs from the 1970s. Whenever Music directors needed to move out of the mainstream path they needed Rafi and in some cases Yesudas, Bhupinder, etc.
1975 was largely touted as Kishore’s year.. He had so many excellent songs in 1975. But to me, the best song of that year, qualitatively, came from Rafi. The song was “Door rehkar na karo baat” (Amanat). But the song was not a mainstream 70s song. That is the reason for Kishore’s numerical superiority in the 70s.
March 15th, 2008 at 1:03 am
ashu: every word of what i wrote to you (e.g rafi was out on world tour) - was sourced by shakti samanta. once on vivid bharati he said it and recently with his chat to binu nair. of course you could allege that binu nair or shakti samanta on vivid bharati are mistaken (or perhaps shakti wants to avoid controversy or be nice) - but i’m inclinded to believe these sources UNLESS you have an equally reliable, primary source that says otherwise. this issue certainly doesn’t make or break anyting - i’m pursuing it only because i’m curious. SHAKTI samanta himself said that rafi had to leave for world tour after the two songs, and was out of the country for the remaining recordings that kishore did (upon rafi’s kind request btw…this is not the first or second, or third time rafi has tipped off / requested songs go to his fellow singers to MDs - he was a saint).
March 14th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
myk said “MM, SJ, LP switching to Kishore ?. You’ve got to be kidding me lol.”
Reply - You are 100 % correct but some kk fan knows how to twist an argument. There is no point in debating further if they cant see the truth (or pretend to be blind) in day light.
March 14th, 2008 at 10:10 am
Ashu,
The majority of MD’s and musicians consider Rafi to be the greatest. You can never compare Kishore to Rafi or for that matter any singer to Rafi, he’s miles ahead. The more one compares Kishore to Rafi, the more flaws one will find in their arguments, as can be seen here.
You are a KK fan, yet I don’t think you know what actually happened. KK himself mentioned he came to Bombay to be a singer. He only went into acting because he couldn’t make it as a singer. Do you think Kishore would “choose” to act if he had the chance to sing, which was his first love ?. He wasn’t considered a top singer in the 50’s and 60’s, only SDB gave him breaks, and other MD’s used him in his own films. Due to the Burmans backing (and Rafi going out of town) he got the chance to rise, or he was about to leave and go back home when Pancham stopped him. He proved his talent as a singer, and his singing career got a jolt, which is great.
However please don’t drag Rafi into the picture when highlighting the good points of Kishore, the more you do, the more you drown, because no singer can ever reach Rafi’s level. Everyone compares their favourite singer to Rafi, that should tell you something. Rafi is the benchmark, Kishore was great within his own range, but when compared to Rafi he doesn’t measure up (imo). I suggest you also listen to SPB and Yesudas of the South, two singers also more versatile than Kishore.
Anyways, I don’t want to take part in this debate because its not really a logical debate, and myths and lies are being proclaimed as facts. But I just thought I should get one more post in.
MM, SJ, LP switching to Kishore ?. You’ve got to be kidding me lol. Many arguments here are flawed as well, but I’m not going to get into that.
March 14th, 2008 at 7:28 am
Only stating facts doston…here’s salil on rafi & kishore…
“There is no doubt that Kishore possessed an exceptional voice. But
voice alone is not everything. I have to say that if Kishore had
classical training he would have been a different Kishore. Not only by
popularity, but also by the yard stick of qualitative merit of singing
Kishore could have reached the place occupied by Rafi. However, if I
have to evaluate Kishore as a singer, it would probably be fair to say
that Kishore brought in a new style of singing - something close to the
pop style. In this style, there was no one close to him. I can say
that with confidence.”
http://bhadra.wordpress.com/2006/07/02/kishore-kumar-and-salil-chowdhury/
i’m not trying to sell this to anyone - take it as you wish. i don’t always believe a famous musician myself. although salil does appear to be objectively analyzing here.
March 13th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Manish,
“Husn Bhi Udhas Hai” was great song.
It is always better to share our views on great songs sung by Rafi, Mukesh and Kishore.
:)
March 13th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Manish mere dost,
Finally u r talking like real music lover
You are right abt aradhana except
so you see, kishore could have certainly sang the bengali versions after rafi’s hindi version (as you suggested). however, it isn’t because sdb wasn’t happy with rafi’s excellent rendition. it is because rafi was out of the country on world tour. my sources are very reliable. mohammed rafi was a great human being!
My reply:
I agree with you except Rafi went on World tour. FYI Rafi did not go on World tour, He went on world tour in 77, from there he was interviewed by BBC (available on the net). If you see movie, RDB name was there as Ass. Music Director. So it was RDB choice to use Kishore, it doesn’t mean RDB/SDB wasn’t happy with Rafi;s rendition, but they might have thought Kishore would be better choice for remaining songs.
March 13th, 2008 at 7:03 am
ashu, i did some research and found answers to my own question. i want to share them with you. i’m only here for the truth.
1. sdb composed all the tunes for aradhana (source manohari singh & bhupinder).
2. only rafi was to give male playback in the movie. after recording two songs, rafi went out on world tour and asked sdb to record the remaining songs in kishore’s voice (source: shakti samanta, vivid bharati).
3. sdb himself rehearsed the songs with kishore. afterwards, either sdb or rdb (don’t know who but doesn’t matter) recorded the songs with kishore who then finally got the recognition he deserved.
so you see, kishore could have certainly sang the bengali versions after rafi’s hindi version (as you suggested). however, it isn’t because sdb wasn’t happy with rafi’s excellent rendition. it is because rafi was out of the country on world tour. my sources are very reliable. mohammed rafi was a great human being!
i made this post only to discuss some interesting facts - the goal here is obviously not to participate further in the debate (in case some are wondering why the heck i’m talking about this).
March 12th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Btw Sudip…another excellent post from you…thanks…I agree with your points….good read.
March 12th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Btw…I only asked out of sheer curiosity…no substantive reasons.
This morning I was listening to Kishore’s “Husn Bhi Udas Hai” - FANTASTIC!
March 12th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Ashu,
I’m no longer here to debate but just to learn facts. A question came up else where and I remembered your remark.
You wrote: “Do you know Bengali song recorded later to Hindi version?” [reference to Aradhana songs]
I can believe you - but can you please give me a SOURCE that indicates which were recorded first? I would like to refer to it myself. Thank you.
March 12th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I never think of comparing Rafi with Sonu….I am big fan of Rafi too, in fact there are few songs which are closed to my heart, and it is always available with me on demand (in MP3 player). I always put Kishore, Rafi and Mukesh in different category..
I agreed to you “Tanhayee” is Rafi’s style song and he could have taken it to different height. But i must admit that Sonu sang it well, but can’t be compared with rafi.
March 12th, 2008 at 11:09 am
Ashu:
You are correct about “falsetto” but you misunderstood me.
I have throughout my posts distinguished between “false voice” and “falsetto”. I think you misunderstood me in that you thought I equated the two.. “falsetto” is a specific category of “false voice”, employed at high pitch.
Also, a “false voice” is not necessarily bad. There are lot of Kishore songs which have false voice. Similarly there are Rafi songs like “Jawaniyan yeh mast” or “Khoya khoya chand” that have deliberate usages of false voices.
I only feel disappointed when singers use it to artificially sound melodious or stay in tune. Abhijeet uses it all the time. Sonu Nigam also does it at times. That is one of the reasons why Sonu’s songs do not touch the heart. Singers need to sing from their navel and sing full throated.
Have you thought the effect if Rafi had sung “Tanhaiyaan” in Dil Chahta Hai? It would have become a classic.
March 12th, 2008 at 8:37 am
Sudip,
You are correct. Rafi was great in high pitch. I think all songs whihc he delivered at high pitch was outstanding. Kishore was great in low scale.
It doesn’t mean that Kishore has not delivered high pitch..There are many high pitch song in his true voice. Same for Rafi.
As per my understanding, false voice is valid only in case of high pitch song:
The term falsetto is most often used in the context of singing to refer to a vocal technique that enables the singer to sing notes beyond the vocal range of the normal or modal voice
“Dil ki baatein” mukhada was not in high pitch. That’s why i was not agreed to you. But, u were right that Kishore sang this song intentionally.
March 12th, 2008 at 2:18 am
Manish and Ashu:
Let us get out of the “which music director chose which singer” discussion. Let us not talk statistics, but quality of music.
First, lets face it- in Hindi movies singers and actors are selected by producers. There are astute music directors like Naushad, Khayyam, etc, who would not budge from their position, but in majority of cases, producers (and the “Bhais” of Dubai) influence the decision. It is a reality that Kishore hit the industry like a wave in the early 70s. So producers bet their money on him. Kumar Sanu created a similar wave between 1989 and 1995..Call it craze, but there is no denying that part.
Second, we tend to infer a music director’s preference from the number of songs he has given to a singer. This line of argument is too simplistic and flawed. SD gave more songs to Kishore but Rafi was his favorite singer. Rafi was Hemant Kumar’s favorite singer (in fact he thought Rafi was #1 to #10) but he gave him a limited number of good songs. Raj Kapoor’s (not a music director though) favorite singer was Rafi but he got Mukesh to sing his songs. I also believe Rajesh Roshan held Kishore and Rafi in equal esteem. There was no way he could have used Rafi for Amitabh and some other cases, and hence the numerical inequality. Ashu, I am just citing Rafi examples because I know them. I am sure there are similar anecdotes on Kishore and Mukesh sides as well.
My 2 cents..
March 11th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
I will let others judge who was more preferred (Rafi or KK) among top notch MD’s in the period of (from 1947 til 1980). I think everyone knows the answer.. It was RAFI. No doubt about that. I shoulf not have even mention this as it is a known fact.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Sudip said “Rafi’s greatness was he sang high pitched songs in true voice (from the navel) without distorting the note. When others try to imitate Rafi they either shout ”
Reply.. very well said…. I agree 100% Rafi is miles ahead than rest in singing.
March 11th, 2008 at 8:49 pm
“If you say “dil ki baatein” is false voice, then there are many songs sung by many legends are false voice:”
-Yes. “Dil ki batein” has two voices. If one is true, the other has to be false.
But you are taking it in wrong spirit. I mentioned that this was deliberate and very well sung. Similarly Rafi has used false voices in some songs deliberately-”Jawaniyan yeh mast bin piye” is a very good example and he did it as well.
Rafi’s greatness was he sang high pitched songs in true voice (from the navel) without distorting the note. When others try to imitate Rafi they either shout (as Anandji pointed out) or they use false voice..In a SVOI episode I heard one kid sing “Dil ki jharoke mein” and he used his false notes at high pitch.
March 11th, 2008 at 9:28 am
Vipul,
I have already replied to Manish on “why MDs preferred Rafi over KK before 68″.
I would not write same thing here. But i can;t stop myself writing following thing:
- It was same MDs (Madan Mohan, SJ, LP) who were very fond of Rafi during his golden time switched to Kishore after 69. Check SJ list aftre 69, Kishore sang many song (FYI, he was not acting). It was kishore’s talent whihc forced so called great MDs to work with him.
Why SJ did not prefer Rafi..
in “KAL AAj aur Kal”, “Chorni”, “Laal Pathar”, “Main Sunder Hoon”
RDB, SDB, KA, Rajesh Roshan, Sapan Jagmohan, Shayamal Mitra are not Kishore’s relative
March 11th, 2008 at 9:04 am
Sudip,
It was delibrate attempt, and it is beauty. You are correct that Kishore sang this way intentionally..
But i disagree on false voice analysis.
If you say “dil ki baatein” is false voice, then there are many songs sung by many legends are false voice:
1. Nain Lad Jai Hai to manawa kasak hoye be kari
2. Aa aa jane ja, mer ae husn jawa
3. Pyaar hame kis mod pe le aaya hai
4. There is one Rafi song in “Shagird”
I must say, all above songs are sung intentionally.
March 11th, 2008 at 1:50 am
BTW, the link to Bijli ki rani:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6dHIieHf0hQ
March 10th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
I think if you want to listen to a “false voice” and true voice” in the same song, songs involving yodelling are good examples. One Kishore song that has both voices (before Ashu jumps, Kishore sang this way intentionally and managed it very very well), is “Dil Ki batein” from Roop Tera Mastana.
——————–>FALSE VOICE
dil ki baate
dil hi jaane
aankhen chheden
sau afasaane
naazuk-naazuk
pyaare-pyaare
vaade hain
iraade hain
———————> TRUE VOICE STARTS
aa-aa mil ke daaman daaman se baandh len
aa-aa mil ke daaman daaman se baandh len