An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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February 27th, 2008 at 8:24 pm
Ashu Wrote:
“Rajesh Khanna was super hit from 69 to 74. He was first superstar, but he was dethroned by AMitabh after that. When Rajesh Khanna was super star, Amitabh was not close to him but Rajesh Khanna was close to Amitabh till 81. Does it mean Rajesh Khanna was no. 1 and i think Rajesh Khanna acted in more movies (like more song sung by Rafi than Kishore) than Amitabh until 85.”
Ashu, When I compared Rafi and kk, I compared them for entire Career span (from 48-49 till 80) till Rafi was alive.
Why did you stop comparing khanna and Bachhan at 1981? They both are alive and Bachhan was number 1 for longer period of time than Khanna (just like Rafi was number 1 for longer time than kk)
If you can twist the comparison, others can do the same!
By the way, I will reply to your other point in my next post. I wont sideline the main topic.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Vipul,
Ur analysis is really funny
. Till 64 or i can say till 67, Kishore was primarily actor. It doesn’t mean that he was not great singer. When he got opportunity, he made others to run for money and fame. That kind of genious, he was.
Let me tell you story.
Rajesh Khanna was super hit from 69 to 74. He was first superstar, but he was dethroned by AMitabh after that. When Rajesh Khanna was super star, Amitabh was not close to him but Rajesh Khanna was close to Amitabh till 81. Does it mean Rajesh Khanna was no. 1 and i think Rajesh Khanna acted in more movies (like more song sung by Rafi than Kishore) than Amitabh until 85.
Mere dost, Is se jyaada aur kya proof ho sakta hai
Note: Rafi was not best in any category, but He was one of the best. In 50s and 60s, there were pre-defined categories for the singers and Rafi got edge over other running singers like Manna Dey, talat Mehmood, Mukesh and etc, because of his voice was suitable for Heroes. Do you think other singers were less talented than him. No yaar, since Rafi’s voice was most suitable for movie actors compared to other singers.
Why he did not persist same position when he got competitor?
February 27th, 2008 at 5:03 am
Ashu:
. Since you brought up individual songs (like Aa mere Humjoli Aa), here are Kishore’s flaws that rang against my ear:
I was listening to Kishore yesterday.. Btw, Kishore rules my car audio but Rafi rules my bedroom
1. Gum hai kisiki pyar mein:
-The Antara was sung in a false voice. Listen to this part (Especially the “apne”):
“Keh daalon apne sab haal din ke
Aur kardoon jeevan uske hawale
Phir chhod de chaahe apna bana le”
2. Kal ki haseen mulaqat ke liye
-See how Lata rounds up “ham-tum juda ho jaate hain”. Kishore missed it in every single repetition. I would never think he was incapable of rendering it right (he was too great for this) but he did not.
3. Aakhon mein hum ne aap ki- Disaster! I think this is a pure Rafi song. I believe Khayyam went with Kishore because Rafi had died by then. But a very protracted performance. Listen to the “Saanjh aur Savera”s ongs which are composed in the same mood.
February 27th, 2008 at 12:08 am
Ashu wrote to Manish:
“More Composition was given to Rafi during 50s and 60s (rafi was in demand), but not 70s. (Kishore wa sin dmand) Rafi sang lesser song than Kishore in 70s.
Please check the record…it means he was second best after Kishore ”
Agree, that after 69 till 80, Rafi was second but close second. After 80 there is no comparison as Rafi saab were no more.
However from 49 to 69-70 Rafi was on top and kk was not even second, forget close second.
However, if you look at the entire period, Rafi was far ahead of kk, so it means he was the best (number 1) .. check database.:)
February 26th, 2008 at 11:17 pm
Manish Kumar, very well said.. As MannaDey mentioned that all MD’s used to call him and Rafi Saab for difficult songs and he rated Rafi higher than him.
Thus if Mukesh has not sung difficult songs in his life (Please note that I lov his sad songs) that is because all MD’s were aware of his limitation.
Chai pe bulaya hai is a fun song .. no doubt.. but as a singer you do not have to do much. It does not test singer’s ability. Similarly many Rafi-KK duets, like Salamat rahe dostana or tumko khush dekhkar or Hum premi etc are very easy songs and it is not fair to compare Rafi and KK based on those songs… (It is just my point of view and people have all rights to differ)
I have met Manna Dey personally back in 1995 when I was just 24 and we talked for more than 2 hours. I will write about that later.
February 26th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Manish mere dost,
U r really great, because everytime when u write, you get caught red-handed(False news).
I am not personal to you. I can’t. Pls. don’t misunderstand me. I am just pointing to your musical knowledge.
Here what u wrote:
Ashu - it is silly if you compare Kishore & Rafi for QAWWALIES, BHAJANS, PATRIOTIC. Kishore himself admitted that in his live concert with Lata, they had to replace a song with a Bhajan,
Kishore said, since Lata denied to sing “Angrezi me kahte hai” from Khuddar because of “idiot” word, they had to sing bhajan. Kishore did not remember any bhajan, but he manage to sing one bhajan which was originally sung by S D Nurman.
Humble request to you, Manish and Rafians…Please be mature and don’t spread false or half news. There are many false news like Rafi’s portrait in Kishore’s bunglow and blah blah…I already sent my comment on this.
February 26th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Manish:
U wrote:
Kishore expresses the emotions very well IMO, he has a golden voice, but he didn’t sing it TECHNICALLY perfect (and I think the composition demanded that).
Can you please explain technicall perfect defination with example where kishore was not technically perfect.
Please reply me, i hav eclear cut defination for this, but i would like to know ur first a su started this.
And Monty,
U can laugh on anything, because u r a laughable object.. I can’t reply u better than this.
First tell me why did u laugh. I am sure u would had laugh before the song started, because you don’t have guts to listen full songs. I would like to mention that “KISHORE sang this song with only harmonium”
Aur manish, why u r asking monty for link. He is still laughing.
Here is a link:
http://songs.kishorekumar.org/
search for : “Manare Tu Kaahe Na” text….(Its live show…Not studio recording)
February 26th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
Prabol das,
Na ho “UDAAS”. There was song from Rafi:
“Duniya Paagal hai, ya phir main Deewana”.
February 26th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
My dear friend Manish..
Well come back.
I am glad that u repeated my word, especially bold one below:
u wrote:
Melody in the voice, range, voice quality in all kinds of songs, what the singers rendred, etc. You are correct about compositions - but remember that singers are chosen based on compositions. Kishore & Rafi were both around in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.
My reply:
I would like to add….Singer are chosen not only based on composition but also song mood, MDs comfort, and above all which singer has got more demand (Pls. don’t inroduce Himesh). I am talking abt legends who rule stheindustry for 20-20 yrs…I would like to correct you…More Composition was given to Rafi during 50s and 60s (rafi was in demand), but not 70s. (Kishore wa sin dmand) Rafi sang lesser song than Kishore in 70s.
Please check the record…it means he was second best after Kishore
Manish, i am sorry to say that you again come back with wrong data:)
February 26th, 2008 at 9:46 pm
Sudip.
Here u r wrong. I am great fan of Rafi too. I have my own collection of Rafi which i always carry in my “Creative” mp3 player.
My 1 GB mp3 player has 4 folders:
1. Kishore
2. Mukesh
3. rafi
4. Kishore Duets with Lata and Asha…
I thikn above info. is enough to tell you abt my music taste.
February 26th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
Post No. 761: kya maara……. mazaa aagaya….
February 26th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
The spectrum where you cannot compare the two singers does exist - but it is a minority IMO. The spectrum of Kishore Kumar’s fun personality in songs like Chai Pe Bulaya (hence the immense popuarlity) cannot be compared with because it is a unique. However, this spectrum is indeed the minority - for the rest comparisons can be made. Melody in the voice, range, voice quality in all kinds of songs, what the singers rendred, etc. You are correct about compositions - but remember that singers are chosen based on compositions. Kishore & Rafi were both around in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. Compositions were given to Rafi and not Kishore because MDs felt they were suited better for Rafi. Hence the composition discrimnation is a result of the abilities of singers!
February 26th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Dear All,
It is good that u guys are discussing about a lot of music. But we can nevr compare singers at this level wen it coms to Rafi,Kishore or Talat. The thing is tht evry one has different choice and diff taste of music. I also depends a lot on the composition as well. You cannot some times compare songs on th basis of voice but compostion. So give a litl thought wen u compare or praise or critisize singers for nothing.
Thnanks,
Sumit
February 26th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Ashu: ” I know now u will write abt my mistake on “HUMJOLI”
I will not.. That’s a pardonable minor mistake compared to a bigger blunder-not being able to appreciate Rafi.
February 26th, 2008 at 8:21 am
KISHORE’S GREATNESS:
A fan of Kishore once told him “Aap to Rafi ka chhutti kar diya”. Kishore Kumar slapped the guy so hard that he went mad and started talking nonsense after that.
I confirmed that the fan’s name was Ashu.
February 26th, 2008 at 5:02 am
Manish wrote: “I also think that Rafi could change his base at will. I was the one that started talking about LOUD, BOOMING, RESOUNDING etc”
Thanks for mentioning this.
-I have cited two examples from the movie Ladies Talior.
-In Badaltey Rishtey, Kishore sang for Rishi Kapoor for the greater part of the movie. Rafi was left with a solo (apart from part of “Na janey kaise”) i.e. Woh woh na rahen. It was amazing that Rafi completely delivered a full-throated, deep song in “Woh woh na rahen”. If you listen to “Woh woh na rahen” and the portion of “Na janey kaise” for Jeetendra, you will almost find two different singers!
February 26th, 2008 at 1:38 am
Monty, Do you have link to kk version of “Mann re too kahe na dhir dhare”? Please post the link here if possible. Thx.
February 26th, 2008 at 1:08 am
Listen to these Rafi songs…
1> Zindabaad (Mughl-e azam)
2> Mohubat zinda raheti hai (Chengez Khan)
He is full throated at very high scale and maintaining melody and sweeetness at the same time. Most of the singers shout and sounds loud on high scale but Rafi is just awesome.. I salute him. I think there is no comparison.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:58 am
Manish Kumar, You said exactly I wanted to say in a much better way. Thank you.
Ashu, Quality does not mean popularity. In this case Himesh nasal Reshmiya is singing only quality songs! Think about it.
February 26th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Ashu,
You often talk about low quality songs from Rafi. Look at it from this simplified angle: Kishore’s MDs were SD Burman, RD Burman, SOME LP, KA, Rajesh Roshan, and Bappi. Rafi’s MDs were Shankar Jaikishan, Roshan, Madan Mohan, SD Burman, Naushad, Chitragupta, OP Nayyar, Laxmikant Pyarelal, Ravi, OK let’s just stop there. SD Burman & LP extensively used both. I think Rafi had ~100 with SDB, Kishore had ~120.
I say SJ & RDB cancel each other ought - to be rough & simple. Now you have left Bappi - do you honestly think Bappi provides better QUALITY than Roshan, Madan Mohan, Chitragupta, OP Nayyar? I think that is a very obvious question in the favor of the latter. Music Directors & Singers represent one another as they are linked - and Rafi wins handily for me. If you think Rafi gave poor quality songs -then you are questioning the judgments of those dozens of elite music directors from the Golden Period of HFM. Let’s see it from this simple angle ? Thoughts please.
Ashu - it is silly if you compare Kishore & Rafi for QAWWALIES, BHAJANS, PATRIOTIC. Kishore himself admitted that in his live concert with Lata, they had to replace a song with a Bhajan, and he couldn’t remember any that he sang! Qawwalis? Kishore openly referred them to Rafi as he felt Rafi was better suited! You bias is beyond the reasonable bounds of subjectivity if you’re going to suggest KK was better suited for those three categories - even devout KK fans would disagree. But you know what - this is NOT necessary to argue - because all that matters for KK is what he did well - and he did a lot of things well - but these categories are not the ones to pick when arguing his accomplishments (what he ACTUALLY did).
February 26th, 2008 at 12:00 am
lol by SANG TOGETHER I mean both are singing the same line at the same timme - KK fans would have a good laugh on the way i unclearly phrased myself.
btw ashu..i have all 70 kk-rafi duets…will eventually do a review…although as P Haldar mentioned…songs like Chal Shuru Ho Jaa aren’t exactly the song to measure ability
February 25th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Sudip,
You and I had the first discussion with regards to Mere Dildar Baankh Pan. Upon retrospect, I think deciding who sang better in that particular song is pointless because it was pretty close. I would say the same for Chupke Chupke duet, although IMO Kishore was given the dominant portion. By dominant I don’t mean louder (although if you see the picturization, something SDB was always big about, Amitabh goes to Sharmila and sings loud all of a sudden whereas Dharmendra just plays along). I’ve met some Kishore Kumar fans who said they preferred Rafi in Jaanu Meri Jaan (no Ashu, I’m not trying to imply that KK fans conceded or anything - just giving a single example). All three of these songs (especially Jaanu Meri Jaan) are very close to the point of subjectivity. Not worth debating.
As for Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara - Rafi clearly won. His voice was smoother, more melodious, and he expressed the emotions much better in that song. I could deciper this as a 5 year old when I didn’t know who Rafi or Kishore was (so don’t accuse me of being biased there
. I can see KK fans feeling 180 on this but I firmly hold my belief on this song - which was a childhood favorite. I will say the same for the sad version of that song and for Hum Premi Prem Karna Chahe although it isn’t nearly as apparent as it is in Dostana.
I also think that Rafi could change his base at will. I was the one that started talking about LOUD, BOOMING, RESOUNDING etc ( to give life to debate). While this is still true, I overlooked that Rafi could change his bass at will too. In the end of Tum Nahin Ya Hum Nahin when Rafi says “To Jalti Aag Hoon Main” - see how FULL his voice is in the word Aag. It is so full & thick that no barritone can overshadow it. In the song Chor Sipahee - once again, see how Rafi starts the song with such a FULL voice. It is true that Rafi’s voice was drowned in Pehli Nazar Mein (Burning Train) but I attribute that to the MD RD Burman. If one doesn’t agree, then see the portions of Dostana where Rafi & Kishore sing together - you hear both voices. I remember counting AT LEAST 5 other songs where BOTH voices were CLEARLY PRESENT when they sang together (I’ll have to to a review of that some time). The idea is to show that even in songs they sang together, Rafi was very capable of holding his ground in terms of TONAL QUALITY (precisely what I had argued against a long time ago just to stir the debate). It wasn’t always as BARRITONEY as Kishore’s (I’m glad too) - but it didn’t need to be to hold its ground in the duets. These two together have the most duets than any other male pair - they’re voices matched with one another very well, as you have suggested.
Anyway, just felt like sharing that
February 25th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Monty,
Please be a bit more respectful of Kishore Kumar. You know very well why he sang that song. As a sincere tribute to his friend. There are lots of Kishore Kumar fans who enjoyed that song due the Kishore’s inherent, golden voice. That song does illustrate an aspect of apples & oranges.
Kishore expresses the emotions very well IMO, he has a golden voice, but he didn’t sing it TECHNICALLY perfect (and I think the composition demanded that). So some people who also want technical perfection will not prefer Kishore (this is certainly not to say that Rafi didn’t have A LOT MORE than just technical perfection - he did e.g. magic, voice quality, emotions, you name it). But there are a lot of people who are willing to overlook that aspect and fall for Kishore’s brilliant personality.
Let’s not make comparisons on this song. Kishore’s tribute was heartily appreciated.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
I with my friends in UK heard how Kishore tried to sing “Man re tu kahena…” and couldn’t stop laughing! KK no way to Rafiji.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Sudip:
u wrote:
No one including Kishore challenged the supremacy of the Mangeshkars. Unfortunately Rafi did (Royalty issue, OP Nayyar issue, dispute on Guiness book record, disagreement on songs, etc)..
My reply.
There would not be any challenge between female and male voice. So i don’t agree to challenging the supermacy of the mangeshkar. I think u don’t have correct information. Rafi did not challenge Lata’s supermacy. I saw Lata’s interview taken by SONU nigam. She said due to provocation one singer (she did not name) Rafi had difference with Lata. It doesn’t mean that he challenge her supermacy, samething happen with RajKapoor. She denied to sing for Raj Kapoor for same issue (Royalty issue).
So mere dost, Pls. refresh ur knowledge before writing something.
I know now u will write abt my mistake on “HUMJOLI”…Yes it was my mistake due to word HUMJOLI and actor Jeetendra being part of both movie.