An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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June 13th, 2007 at 10:26 am
Dear Ashu, homework ke liye extra time chahiye kya? Theek hai, tension maat lena. Sawal thora asan kar doon kya? Shashi Kapoor aur Kapoor khandan ka baat chhor; Dev Anand hi kaafi hai hamare liye. We believe in fair competition. Hints chahiye to zaroor batana, hna? In the meantime, Dev ka aur ek gaana bhej raha hoon tumhare manoranjan ke liye. Yeh gana ki dhun Jaikishan ne banaya tha 1959 mein. Bahut hi pyara tha Jai; Rafi saab Jai ko chhote bhai se bhi zyada pyar karte the. Yeh gana ka music Sebastian ne most probably arrange kiya tha. Sebastian ka naam soona? Many in the music world consider him the best in the business. Sebastian D’Souza. Tujhe thora thora history bata raha hoon; theek se homework kar, sab seekh jayoge. Aur yeh sab legends ko izzat karna sikhoge. Jai passed away before he reached 40; he became a legend when he was 17. Ab gaana soon:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0okwnJkLVB0
June 13th, 2007 at 9:11 am
Im sorry for 3 posts..It was not to create more momentum for Rafi-blame it on my browser
June 13th, 2007 at 9:10 am
Sanjay
First let me congratulate you for the FIRST KNOWLEDGEABLE POST BY A KK FAN.
But, what is “POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” to you can be “LOUD, HOARSE and INAPT” to someone else. To me romantic and sad songs are NOT meant to be “POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” and that is where Kishore fails. It can create superhits but does not capture the mellow and closeness that is so necessary in romance.
If you really talk of melody and barritone voice talk of Hemant Kumar (or Hemanta Mukherjee) or Mehdi Hasan. They are deep but not out of melody.
If you go by the “masculine, barritone” yardstick, then Talat Mehmood is no singer at all. I am surprised why he is called “King of Ghazals”. In the same yardstick Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is crap! Rahat Fateh Ali Khan is a novice!
I agree with you on your observation on “Mere dildar ka bakhpan”. This is one song where I think Rafi could have done better. I think because Kishore started the song, he set the tone and set the frequency to his comfort zone. Though in the antara where there is a small yugalbandi, Rafi catches up and Kishore oversimplifies the “jawabs”.
I think this debate is never going to end. Simply because, if you love deep, barritone voice you got to love Kishore and hate Rafi. If you love sweet, melodious voice you got to love Rafi and dislike Kishore.. There is no middle ground.
But to answer your question on Rafi songs that have strong tonal quality. The answer is simple: ALL-depnds on what you are looking for. But since you possibly mean deep, low bass singing, I will name a few :
1. Kabhi Khud pe
2. Suhani Raat Dhal Chuki (it is amazing that this tonal quality was demonstrated in 1949, when instrumental aid was non-existent)
3. Jab Mohabbat Jawan Hota hai
4. Main nigahen tere chehre se hatayoon kaise
5. Aapne yaad dilaya to mujhe yaad aaya
6. Hui shaam unka khayal aa gaya
Now let me give you 5 more songs that will just sound HORRIBLE and HOARSE in “”POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” voice.. Since you seem to be the first and only knowledgeable person in the KK camp, I would like you to comment on how KK’s natural voice would sound in these:
1. Abhi na jao chod kar
2. Door rehkar na karo baat
3. Thehriye hosh mein aa loon to chale jayega
4. Tum se kahoon ek baat
5. Aaja tujhko pukare mera pyar
You will always find some odd Rafi songs because Rafi was given all kinds of songs while MDs protected KK within his comfort zone.
It is interesting that you find Rafi strained while all MDs ranging from Naushad to A.R Rahman feels otherwise (effortless scaling). Of the current day music directors, Rahman, Shantanu Moitra, Ismail and Vishal Sekhar swear by Rafi.
June 13th, 2007 at 7:53 am
While Khaike Pan Banaraswala may not be as musically touted as Dard E Dil, it was more popular because of the energy in Kishore’s voice. KK made that song a hit - anyone else like Rafi or Udit Narayan would have failed.
June 13th, 2007 at 2:34 am
Kishore Kumar had a superior voice to Mohd Rafi - even in terms of musical techniques. His deep, barritone voice meant that his voice had SUPERIOR TONAL quality to Mohd Rafi and this meant that he sounded more enunciated. This is one quality of Kishore Kumar that allowed him to make songs, be it just about any song - popular. Listen to the songs from Sharabi, the song from Ram Balram (Humse Bhool Hogaya), and even Khaike Pan Banaswala - he has such a POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING voice that adds energy and clarity to the singing that Mohd Rafi cannot match. Those three words in capital cannot be used to describe Mohd Rafi - can Rafi fans dispute this? Rafi had a moderate voice but it didn’t have the same ENERGY or RESOUNDING TONAL quality of Kishore Kumar.
Yes, Udit Narayan is a singer closer to the Mohd Rafi school. I agree with above posters that he is a great singer (not some ordinary SaReGaMa contestant) and so he took his hand at the KK song. He couldn’t recapture the magic because he, like Rafi just doesn’t have the words POWERFUl, BOOMING, ENERGETIC that is reserved for Kishore Kumar. It is for these reasons that Kishore Kumar reigns supreme with just his voice and no training. Could Mohammed Rafi, LP’s favorite singer, have sung the song from Mr India “Kaate Nahi Tak Ye Din Ye Raat” - no you needed the energy of Kishore Kumar. Mohd Rafi would not have been able to do this song justice.
Mohd Rafi was technically a great singer but his voice wasn’t naturally AS ENERGETIC or as great in TONE (things I consider very important) as Kishore Kumar’s. What is even more amazing about Kishore Kumar is that despite having such a heavy, powerful voice, he could have MELODY too! That’s one advantage about Rafi and his soft / light voice - he was a little more melodious maybe because it was easier to switch around notes with such a light voice.
Mohd Rafi tried to compensate for his moderate / light voice by shifting into high pitch. In the duet “Mere Dildar Baankh Pan” Kishore shows stronger tone and Rafi tries to compensate by shifting to a higher pitch but it doesn’t have the same effect and it sounds somewhat strained and highly efforted.
Rafi didn’t always have a soft voice but mostly his voice wasn’t nearly as strong as Kishore’s. Yes, in the song “Tu Hindu Banega” or …trouble thinking of more he showed a strong voice.
Listen to his song , “Kaise Jeet Lete Hai Dil Kisika” it is a great song because Mohd Rafi, for all his soft voice, is technically very sound and does indeed have uncanny magic in his voice, but his tonal qualit is just not there. The words sound as if they’re of LIGHT THREAD - each word isn’t as emphasized as they would be with Kishore’s booming voice - it is a like a long, smooth blur. Yes, Rafi was good for his times. He was good for his times when music didn’t require the energy of Kishore Kumar till later (Rock, machines etc).
MOHD RAFI FANS: Give me a list of songs where Mohd Rafi shows strong tonal quality, where his voice is booming and resounding, where the words themselves are CLEARLY enunciated, and the song doesn’t sound so efforted. “Kaise Jeet Lete Hai Dil” is a great song but doesn’t have those qualities. Bura Mat Suno - not the same tonal quality as Kishore. Dildar Baankh Pan - voice sounds worn and efforted.
Give me a list of Rafi’s energetic, booming sounds. I await.
June 13th, 2007 at 12:57 am
Ashu, tu idhar bhi aa gaya? Homework diya tha, abhi tak khatam nahi kiya. Tu homework pahle complete kar, uske baad main jawab doonga. Please don’t say your dog has eaten up your homework. In any case, here it is again:
—-
And here’s a homework assignment for you; take your time because you’ll need it. Among the many Dev Anand films that Rafi sung in, I’ll mention only one and that too a non-SD film. The film is Hum Dono and the music was composed by Jaidev, SD’s assistant. There are three Rafi songs in the film, two solos and one duet:
1. Main zindagi ka saath nibhata chala gaya
2. Kabhi khud pe kabhi halat pe rona aaya
3. Abhi na jawo chhod kar (with Asha)
The first part of your homework is to figure out which Rafi sang each of the songs. The second part is a little more difficult. Go through the archives of all Dev Anand films (doesn’t matter who the MD is) and give me one film where Kishore has three songs whose combined impact comes anywhere near that of the three mentioned above. This is your home turf. After all, Kishore is Dev’s voice!
June 12th, 2007 at 5:18 am
Mr. Haldar,
Pls. listen song from movie “Pyar Kiye ja”. Rafi sang for Shashi Kapoor. Song was like this “RAMLAL MURDABAD…”
He really spoiled the songs. His voice not at all suits wheh he utters RAMALA MURDABAD.
Its pathetic.
No doubt Rafi was one of the legend, but he could not touch Kishore’s talent and energy. It is proven from 1969 - 1987. It is history.
ashu
June 11th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Well written anonymous great,if Kishoreda is Bradman,Rafi is not even a child cricketer.
HAIL KISHOREDA,THE GREATEST OF ALL.
June 11th, 2007 at 9:48 am
Dear Anony-mous:
What is your name and who are you… You can hide your name
and identity : but let me tell you :
Y o u have a mentality and an attitude of a frog in the well…
ur musical standards and write - up is laughable ……
and lastly…. thanks for the GOOD JOKE AS STATED ABOVE..
binus….
June 11th, 2007 at 12:41 am
#
Anonymous:
“Take the case of singing talent programs.In Indian IDOl 1 and 2 no rafi clone has won till date . Same is the case with sa re ga ma pa.”
—What does it prove? Who is easier to imitate? Man, think logically before you write.
–You are talking of low pitch (bass) singing.. Have you sung in your life? If so, try singing “Tumse Kahoon Ek baat” (Dastak) and if you can get past the mukhda you are great! If you think of modulation, try “Jawaniyan yeh mast” or “Pukarta Chala hoon main”. Again if you can get past the mukhda, you are great. In my college social a guy tried “Pukarta Chala hoon main”. He could not get past the mukhda.
–How can you decide for the whole of India. Let us not get into the popularity and as I said if popularity is a measure of art, pornographic magazines sell more than Tagore..The who’s whos in the industry have voted number of times and Kishore has never topped them.
– “Coz only a genius recognizes another”…So you do not consider Madan Mohan a genius or Jaikishen a genius? Shows your musical knowledge..If copying catchy western tunes is the only mark of genius, RD is the only one.
–As I said, more people /*possibly*/ love Kishore but more people respect Rafi. If the baritone voice was an answer to all macho characters, why did the biggest macho symbol in Bollywood till date (Dharmendra) pick Rafi as his preferred singer? And let me tell you, your so called “baritone” voice can NEVER EVER sing “Abhi na jao chodkar” or “Din dhal jaye”… The result would be horrible! Try imagining this.
Also Kishore’s fans are making a big deal of the “no classical training bit”
-True Kishore had minimal (not zero) classical training. But what’s teh big deal. He did not sing any great classical numbers either. If you make a list of 50 top classical songs in films, no KK song would come in the list.
Rafi being a humble, introvert and conventional person never had any cheap publicity. Otherwise it IS INDEED A BIG DEAL THAT HE COULD RENDER SUCH EXPRESSIONS WITHOUT ANY ACTING BACKGROUND.
1. How can a person who did not touch a single drop of liqour sing “Mujhe duniyawalo” or “Arey sambhalo” or “Chalkaye Jaam” or “Peete Peete kabhi kabhi”?
2. How can a person who NEVER indulged in romance (unlike KK) could sing romantic numbers like “Yeh mera prem patra” or “Main kahin kavi na” or “Tere aakhon ke siva”?
3. How can a person who was never ditched or never lost his wife (again unlike KK) sing “Chirag dil ka jalao” or “Meri awaaz suno” or “Din dhal jaye”?
As anonymous said (inadvertantly confessed) Kishore Kumar craze is just a passing pase in life (I had that too). When you are 25, when you try to impress girls with your so-callled baritone rendition and yodelling, when you think life is all about machoism and fun, you listen to Kishore.
When you have grown some maturity, have come to terms with the grim realities of life, have grown out of infatuation into true love, have lost few of your near and dear ones, have broken relationships, you listen to Rafi or Mukesh..
Rafi is a singer for all seasons-fun, frolic, pensive, sorrow…The so-called “baritone” voice can only entertain, NOT SOOTHE…
June 11th, 2007 at 12:40 am
Also Kishore’s fans are making a big deal of the “no classical training bit”
-True Kishore had minimal (not zero) classical training. But what’s teh big deal. He did not sing any great classical numbers either. If you make a list of 50 top classical songs in films, no KK song would come in the list.
Rafi being a humble, introvert and conventional person never had any cheap publicity. Otherwise it IS INDEED A BIG DEAL THAT HE COULD RENDER SUCH EXPRESSIONS WITHOUT ANY ACTING BACKGROUND.
1. How can a person who did not touch a single drop of liqour sing “Mujhe duniyawalo” or “Arey sambhalo” or “Chalkaye Jaam” or “Peete Peete kabhi kabhi”?
2. How can a person who NEVER indulged in romance (unlike KK) could sing romantic numbers like “Yeh mera prem patra” or “Main kahin kavi na” or “Tere aakhon ke siva”?
3. How can a person who was never ditched or never lost his wife (again unlike KK) sing “Chirag dil ka jalao” or “Meri awaaz suno” or “Din dhal jaye”?
As anonymous said (inadvertantly confessed) Kishore Kumar craze is just a passing pase in life (I had that too). When you are 25, when you try to impress girls with your so-callled baritone rendition and yodelling, when you think life is all about machoism and fun, you listen to Kishore.
When you have grown some maturity, have come to terms with the grim realities of life, have grown out of infatuation into true love, have lost few of your near and dear ones, have broken relationships, you listen to Rafi or Mukesh..
Rafi is a singer for all seasons-fun, frolic, pensive, sorrow…The so-called “baritone” voice can only entertain, NOT SOOTHE…
June 10th, 2007 at 9:49 pm
Anonymous:
“Take the case of singing talent programs.In Indian IDOl 1 and 2 no rafi clone has won till date . Same is the case with sa re ga ma pa.”
—What does it prove? Who is easier to imitate? Man, think logically before you write.
–You are talking of low pitch (bass) singing.. Have you sung in your life? If so, try singing “Tumse Kahoon Ek baat” (Dastak) and if you can get past the mukhda you are great! If you think of modulation, try “Jawaniyan yeh mast” or “Pukarta Chala hoon main”. Again if you can get past the mukhda, you are great. In my college social a guy tried “Pukarta Chala hoon main”. He could not get past the mukhda.
–How can you decide for the whole of India. Let us not get into the popularity and as I said if popularity is a measure of art, pornographic magazines sell more than Tagore..The who’s whos in the industry have voted number of times and Kishore has never topped them.
– “Coz only a genius recognizes another”…So you do not consider Madan Mohan a genius or Jaikishen a genius? Shows your musical knowledge..If copying catchy western tunes is the only mark of genious, RD is the only one.
–As I said, more people /*possibly*/ love Kishore but more people respect Rafi. If the baritone voice was an answer to all macho characters, why did the biggest macho symbol in Bollywood till date (Dharmendra) pick Rafi as his preferred singer? And let me tell you, your so called “baritone” voice can NEVER EVER sing “Abhi na jao chodkar” or “Din dhal jaye”… The result would be horrible! Try imagining this.
June 10th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
Kishore Kumar himself had said that his favourite singer is Mohd Rafiji, that’s it! Now who are these Kishore fans??? Making useless “shor”.
June 10th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
No one can be compared to Kishoreda. Leave alone rafi. As far as playback singing goes the slot of 1-10 is occupied by kishoreda rafi comes at 13 behind lataji and ashatai.
Kishoreda ki had a great tonal quality he had a baritone voice that suited legends like amitabh, rajesh, dev like no one else.
Rafi had a thin feminine voice that allowed to sing at high pitch but he struggled when given songs with low notes and ignorant people talk about his range.
Filmfare a magazine which is still considered the last word on bollywood constituted RDB award in the memory of RDB but no such award has been consituted for for Rafi till date. Thus filmfare considers RDB a bigger film personality than rafi.RDB consirered KK greater than Rafi.
Coz only a genius recognizes another.
Take the case of singing talent programs.In Indian IDOl 1 and 2 no rafi clone has won till date . Same is the case with sa re ga ma pa.
Indian Idol I was won by abhijeet sawant a self confessed kishoreda fan. Sa re ga ma pa was won by debojit another fan of kishoreda
In all these programs, it is India who decides. These are hard facts which cannot be ignored by rafi fans.
Rafi target audience is of the age group 45 and above and kishoreda all those below 45 especially teenagers. Even today if a country wide poll is done on who is India’s Greatest singer, I am confident that kishoreda will get 80% votes, and the remaining votes will go to all other singers, rafi i guess getting below 5% votes.
June 8th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
No one can be compared with Kishoreji,it is a one sided debate.Kishoreji could have easily sung Rafi’s songs,but Rafi could not even dream of attempting Kishoreji’s songs.And everybody knows Kishoreji is the most popular.Monty are you mad?Rajesh is right,Kishoreji’s songs are much much more popular and sells more than all other singers collectively.
June 6th, 2007 at 8:45 pm
True Nairji, no one can be compared to Rafiji. As someone said, it’s a one side debate.
June 6th, 2007 at 8:52 am
For we Mohd Rafi lovers, his songs are sublime, out of this world.
His conduct in life was - M A T C H L E S S ….. and spotless….
Rafi saab lives in the hearts of millions of music lovers - all
around the globe….
Rafi Saab deserves the Bharat Ratna Award more than any
body…….
His immortal songs are the true friends of MANKIND and for
Music Lovers.
UNBEATABLE AND UNCONQUERABLE.. ..
MATCHLESS ARE HIS WORKS……
And lastly we Rafians will not compare Rafi saab with Kishore
Kumar - whom we all love; no doubt about it…….
binu nair..
June 6th, 2007 at 2:33 am
Kishore Kumar cannot be greater than Rafiji.
June 4th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
KISHORE KUMAR IS A LEGEND BEYOND COMPARISON. TO ALL THE RAFI FANS, I HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR RAFI AS A SINGER, BUT KISHORE’S GENIUS SIMPLY CAN NOT BE MATCHED. I LOVE THIS MAN’S VOICE, AND HIS SONGS MOVE & STIR YOUR SOUL. I LOVE & ADORE KISHORE KUMAR.
June 4th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Guys I feel it is unfair to compare these two greats.
Rafi no doubt was a true worshipper of music and got this kind of voice quality through sheer hard work and practice. His perfection of ’sur’ and melody is beyond compare.
But Kishore had Saraswati placed in his vocal chord. When he came to scene with his maverick singing and versatility he did make the peerless and invincible Rafi insecure for some years.
However as I said both are great in their ways and to demean anyone would be blasphemous.
June 4th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Sir,
Pl. stop these silly war of kk & rafi fans. There is no result or output for discussing who is great in both of them.
June 3rd, 2007 at 8:31 pm
Dear Rajesh ,
Yes u r right KK was more better than Lata ji because when KK singed with Lata ji he had one Rs less than Lata ji!!!!why?!!!KK never singed for one Rs but Mohd Rafi was so cheap paid singer two songs only for one Rs…..
June 3rd, 2007 at 12:44 pm
R.D. Burman’s music was copied from western tunes, he made great songs with Rafiji. No one here in London agree that Kishore Kumar sells more than Rafiji or Lataji or Ashaji.
June 2nd, 2007 at 11:03 pm
Mr. Rajesh…
Please follow all facts which is the truth…
RDB gave some promising musicals undoubtedly - but soon
became stereotyped. Thus his music and films flopped around
the eighties which saddended music lovers no end…….
Meantime, Laxmikant Pyarelal who used to assist R.D.Burman
along with Kalyanji Anandji were giving unmatched “VARIETY”
MUSIC and surged ahead.. This is no FICTION… SIR…..
I do not wish to demean R.D. Burman any time but facts haved to
be stated…. they turn to be bitter for few, I am aware…….
About your view that Kishore Kumar sells more than Lata,Asha
Rafi, Mukesh and Manna dey is unbelievable and true fiction,
a figment of your imagination…..
Please prove it with statistics/numbers to prove it otherwise..
I wait for it.
binu nair…
June 2nd, 2007 at 9:24 pm
Dear Rajesh,
I am better singer than Mohd Rafi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!i can say Yahoooo ,RD was greatest!!!!!!!would u please give me RD list of hit flims??KK made Mr Bachchan superstar if there was no KK there was no superstar in Bollywood!!!!!because there are only two superstanr first was Rajesh Khanna because of KK and 2nd was Mr Bachchan because of kk!!!!?if there was no KK there was no RD and SD also KK made LP!!!!!!!after 1980 there was not good musc because KK didn’t sing much!!!!
I am not crazy dears jest I don’t know anything about singer when Mohd Rafi sing I think he is KK.