An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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May 8th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
Dear Sir offourse there is no end but there is something clear like sun who is best singer ever born in bollywood,I can say what I want but important thing is the true is true,Rajesh Khanna said once that the song which singed by Anwar for him if there was MohdRafi he can’t sing it the way singed by Anwar!!!do u think so?we should not compare mohd Rafi with any singer said by many great people who know about music.if u have singer like Mohd Rafi u don’t need anyother singer to sing any tape of song to be sing by other singer boz mohd rafi can sing any tape of song so easy way but other singers they can’t,exp Shammi Kapoor used around 95% Mohd Rafi but if we go to Rajesh Khanna or mr Bachchan it not like that,if I like Sanu it not mean that he is the best singer,why we say that KK was not trained!!!!after singing thousands of songs and working with all MD he is not trained!!!!!!!???if he is not trained it mean that he is not a singer as i think but kk was great singer,why compare him as singer with mohd rafi?
There is end of topic who is better as we know in our heart……
May 9th, 2007 at 10:28 am
Good article, but the one again will encourage many to start the so called debate.
I don’t understand why each and every time they ignite people to start the comparison.
Rafi is I think one of the greatest singers on the face of the Earth and so is Kishore Kumar
Rafi mainly because of his sheer skills and Kishore Kumar mainly because of his Purity of
voice. I don’t mean to say Rafi’s voice is not pure, neither do I say Kishore doesn’t have
skills. But yes, one will overshadow the other on those points.
I love both of them. One thing I don’t understand. What’s Rafi school. Ok, I think Rafi’s
distinct syle and calibre made it a school. Sonu Nigam can be categorized under Rafi’s
School. How come Udit ? There’s no similarity between his voice and style with Rafi’s.
However Sonu has some similarity. But as a singer, Udit is far better than Sonu,
is that the reason some people say he is also from Udit just to prove Rafi’s greatness ?
I don’t understand this fact. Anybody can explain ? don’t start a debate. Just give me
reasons that why Udit falls under Rafi school. Don’t just say that he himself has said
that that’s why. That’s not a reason to believe.
Thanks for the wonderful article. BTW, what about the author ? a Rafian or a Kishoreian ?
May 9th, 2007 at 10:47 am
IMHO, both Rafisahab and Kishoreda were two sides of the same coin. Both were equally important for the coin to exist, so why compare them ?
May 9th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
No doubt that Kishoreda is the greatest.
May 9th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
wot nonsense. Rafi was much better than K.K. Udit nor Sonu can come to Rafi’s gharana of singing. Not even close.
May 9th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
ALL MUSIC LOVERS,
yes let us not compare these 2 great legends and enjoy the lovely evergreen hits given by them.
Both had the best of relationship so why the fans should grudge anything against the legends.
Rafi Sahabs photo along with Saigal sahabs potrait is displayed in the portico of Kishore da s house. Also Rafi Sahab in Kishore da’s last film charged a friendly 1 rupee.
In the 70s when Rafi sahab was less used an ignorant person asked Kishore da ” Aapne Rafi ki chutti kar di”. The fool got a resounding slap from the legend promptly.
I strongly feel all should enjoy the greatness of the legends without comparing and simply enjoy MUSIC which the TWO together dominated in the playback singing field.
Narayanan
May 9th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Both Rafi saab and Kishoreda were great. They had mutal admiration for
each other.
As for settling for the best lets just say Mukeshji, as he was
totally inimitable. That way Rafi or Kishore fans will not feel bad.
May 9th, 2007 at 7:34 pm
@ Messi
When Udit says that he is from Rafi’s school, then why do you force him to pull out….strange!
May 9th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
Kishore Kumar is the most versatile of all singers.He is much ahead than Rafi.
May 9th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Without any formal training,he reached unusual heights in playback singing.That’s what a genius is.
May 10th, 2007 at 12:19 am
So true Narayan & Paresh Pai, I liked it what you guys said.
Sorry if I did anything wrong. Thanks for everything.
May 10th, 2007 at 6:18 am
If you like someone’s intrinsic voice - whatever he sings - you will naturally like it. This liking is personal and thus varies from person to person e.g. a Kishore fan will like Kishore’s voice and a Rafi fan will like Rafi’s voice. Voice is probably the most important factor which means that preference for a singer is subjective, personal, and ill suited to compare with another’s tastes. What you can do…is compare within yourself but that is about how far you can go.
I really don’t like it when someone tries with good intentions to balance the debate by saying, “Kishore had the natural voice while Rafi was better trained.” I think Rafi had both! Yes, I liked Kishore’s version of Tum Bin Jaon Kahan better simply because of the yodelling. However, if you compare voice alone - I felt Rafi’s was more crisp and clearer and fuller.
At the same time - I *try to refrain from generalzing Kishore’s voice. I think in the 50s and 60s his voice was more crisp and clear (listen to Mana Janab Ne Pukara Nahi 1957 or Mere Samne Waali Kirdhki 1968) than his voice in the 70s. My guess is that he was so popular in the 70s and so busy as a result that sometimes he just throated the song or quickly rendered it to keep up with assigments whereas in the 50s he had fewer songs and so he was able to dedicate himself more to each one.
Another reason for Kishore not always delivering his best is because he emphasized playback singing as a business among exploitive people in the movie industry (how right he was!). In one incident, he was singing and Bappi Lahri told him to add some emotion to the song. Kishore said, “Give me 300 more rupees and I’ll put emotion into the song.” Do you think Kishore put his best effort into that song? I don’t blame him from a personal viewpoint (he should make the most he can) but as a singer he compromised his art (his song was still good thanks to his intrinsic voice but clearly he didn’t put in his best). I’m not saying that Kishore didn’t work hard or that he just throated every song - but I think you understand my thoughts. I cannot excuse Kishore as an artist for this!
In sharp contrast, Rafi was always very dedicated to his singing and even on the day of his death as he recorded his last song - he didn’t fail to impress! This description is well documented. Additionally (again only my opinion) I can’t think of a single Rafi song where he doesn’t seem to sing from the heart and where the song isn’t gushing with emotion and
My opinion is that Rafi had by far the best voice among the male singers - it wasn’t too deep or too low or too…it was just perfect. This is why Rafi’s voice could suit just about any actor and his record as a primary choice for over a dozen actors from the romantic Dharmendra to the quirky Mehmood to Johnny Walker to the rebel Shammi Kapoor - Rafi’s voice was a voice for all occasions. He also had that magic in the voice that is a rare gift (Kishore had it too).
For my money - Rafi’s super voice quality was always consistent - from the 40s all the way until he breathed his last! Kishore’s voice was smooth and crisp in the 50s and 60s, somewhat coarse but deep and strong (great tone) in the 70s and 80s. Neverthleless, for me, Rafi’s voice was much better. It was sweeter, it was much more crisp and clear than any version of Kishore’s voice. That’s just me. Mohammed Rafi had the best voice.
It is a fact that Rafi yodelled before Kishore! Kishore fans who unknowingly say that Kishore was the best yodeller have not heard Rafi yodel but indeed - Rafi’s vocals had no limits. He yodelled in a song from 40s or early 50s and IMO it was just as good as Kishore’s! Rafi rarely yodelled because he was trained singer and among trained singer this artistic trait (I think it is art) is looked down upon. This fact that I dare to say few KK fans knew of or believe - shows what great vocals Rafi had that he could be on the same ground of yodelling as the great Kishore Kumar!
It is fact that Rafi had the wider vocal range and combining this with his superior training in classical music meant that Rafi could sing just about any song. While Kishore was very versatile - there are some songs that are SIMPLY out of his vocal range IMO. A song like “Ae Mohabat Zindabad” from Naushad’s Mughal E Azam requires a very, very high vocal range that no one but Rafi himself could match! When Shankar Jaikishan started out - they went to Rafi and asked him to sing as he pleased because he was the only one who could sing their composition (humble Rafi told them to tell him how they wanted it).
It is fact that till 1969 Rafi sang 10X more songs than Kishore (and they were quality) and that MDs used Rafi more than Kishore from 1977-1980. That tells you something! Of the ~40 years together, Kishore had the better of Rafi for only 6 years. The “decline” of Rafi was inevitable because when you dominate for 20 years, the people need a brief change of something different and Kishore provided with that. I listen primarily to Rafi but every now and then I take a break for a fresh new style of voice and that voice is typically Kishore or Udit.
Also know that if Kishore really had the natural voice (over Rafi’s) then…when Kishore started out as a singer he really struggled and people told him that he was no good or that his voice just didn’t have it. Mohammed Rafi’s voice was NEVER criticized like that at ANY point in his career - it testifies that Rafi Sahab’s intrinsic voice was tough to question. Kishore did receive an aura.
Someone said that Rafi could not sing a song like “Arre Deewano Mujhe Pehchano” from Don. Are you kidding? A skilled singer of his voice control could sing that song in his sleep. Additionally, some could say that Kishore had a brilliant personality and that he could do funny songs that maybe Rafi could not. Again, I disagree because Rafi was a great singer who dedicated himself and had MAGIC and emotion and NUANCE in his voice. Rafi did a great job of capturing Kishore’s brilliant personality and nuances in the songs for which he did playback for Kishore. Rafi had personality too and could do just about any song - funny, yodel etc.
Rafi had the best voice, he had the magic, and he had the training and range. I can’t think of another singer that has ALL of these four traits. These comparisons are only within me…you guys could think it is rubbish!
Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara - I thought Rafi’s voice had much more emotion here whereas Kishore maintained a stronger tone
Zindagi Ek Safar - Rafi maintained a stronger tone and his voice was fuller and smoother.
Hum Premi Prem Karna Chahe - Both maintained equal tone but for me, Rafi had more emotion in his voice.
Tum Bin Jaaon Kahan - Rafi had a more crisp, clear voice. Kishore wins because artistically his yodelling had the edge but Rafi could have yodelled too if he wanted!
After having written all this, I still say that my opinion against SOMEONE ElSE can potentially be an apple versus an orange. These opinions are against MY values and likes which aren’t universal hahaha. I’m also glad that we have BOTH to listen to!
May 10th, 2007 at 10:24 am
I’d like to commend Manish Kumar for a very insightful analysis; I share most of his views.
In the history of playback singing, there was no phenomenon like Rafi and there will never be one. The only singer to challenge Rafi was Kishore and we need to recognize that. Lata, Asha, Manna or Mukesh could never overshadow Rafi; Rafi simply towered above all of them. That it is why it is important to understand the reasons why Kishore could dethrone Rafi. Of course, there was always that issue of patronage from the Burmans, especially the younger one. Suffice it to say that without RD’s music, it would have been impossible for Kishore to displace Rafi. What RD created in the 1970-75 period was sheer magic and Kishore responded magnificently. They were made for one another. Though Rafi’s voice could easily cover the gamut of song types, there was (just) one dimension in which Kishore’s voice was superior. The genius in SD recognized that much earlier than anyone else; that is why he could exploit the two voices so well. But the son never realized that, although Rafi launched him into big league with Teesri Manzil. He let Kishore sing almost every song of his, including classical, folk, ghazal, etc. It is a stroke of irony that when Rafi got half a chance in HKKN, he came back with a bang. The difference between SD and RD ultimately is how they used Rafi. SD and Rafi defined what playback singing is all about in Pyasa (Yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaye to kya hai) and it was they who could scale those lofty heights again in Kagaz ke Phool (Dekhi zamane ki yari). Listen to Rafi’s Din dhal jaye from Guide and it’d be difficult to discern that someone else is singing for Dev.
Kishore was a spontaneous talent. Yes, Rafi could sing every song that Kishore sang but, in my humble opinion, Kishore would be slightly ahead in songs like Yeh dil na hota bechara, Zindagi ek safar hai suhana, Yeh kya hua, Yeh jo mohabbat hai, etc. That is the dimension I alluded to earlier. Rafi fans — and I am one — need to concede that and stop this needless debate that has been going on for the last 37 years.
Rafi and Kishore fans should remember the mutual admiration and respect that these two playback giants shared. In 1983, three years after Rafi had died, Kishore came to sing at a concert in Kolkata. His first song was a Rabindra sangeet; his second was Rafi’s Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare from Chitralekha! Kishore was a self-avowed fan of Rafi’s (he once said, “I am his greatest fan”) and I am sure that Rafi, who hardly ever spoke, had the highest regard for the phenomenon that was Kishore.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:42 am
Hi Humble,
First, When did Udit say that ? provide me the exact quote. Otherwise it’s tough to believe
the media now a days.
Second, He might have said that because Rafi is his favorite singer or he liked Rafi’s
voice and style. But Udit’s voice and style don’t match with Rafi’s a bit. If you say Sonu
is from Rafi’s school I can believe that even when Sonu deny it officially. But it’s tough
to believe Udit case even he accepts that officially. Understand ?
May 10th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Kumar Sanu,Abhijeet,Babul Supriyo,Vinod Rathode,Shaan,KK,Kunal all belong to the Kishore Kumar school of singing.Kishoreda is simply the best.He is God.
May 11th, 2007 at 10:48 am
when the people who know about music they speak about KK they say he was good singer but when they speak about mohd Rafi they said there never be other Mohd Rafi as a singer and human,Mohd rafi singed for KK for free but mr bachchan don’t i hope u know that kk fans,why u people useing kk name with RD as i think LP with kk was more better,when RD got his first film he went to Mohd Rafi to sing for him and said by RD that Mohd Rafi helped him makeing his first songs and he canelled with other MD and he singed for me after he singed I was thining that Is i made this song or it is the magic of Mohd Rafi voice.when Lata ji speak about Mohd Rafi she said he can sing an topic of song so easy but when she speak about KK she say about kk jokes,
If we go for good music will see the good music star in 1950’s and end in 1980’s,the best music was in 1960’s,WHY?!!!!!as i think because of Mohd rafi…….why we compare?!!!!!!!!!!!???kk fans don’t have much to say but mohd rafi fans have much.
May 11th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Bapan,
please stop now. Don’t just repeat the samething I have trying to stop.
I agree with Haldar and Paresh Pai. Kishore was the one who could give a challenge
to Rafi, that’s the reason some people don’t like him. I respect both of them and will
always. So no stop using the bad words, mohdrafi.come website is full of all the words
and posts.
No more now, just enjoy.
Thank you
May 11th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Dear messi,
Lata ji is the best female singer she can’t challenge Mohd Rafi,Mannay Dey a great singer he said no way to challenge Mohd rafi,Talat ji knig of sad songs he can’t challenge mohd Rafi but I agree with that KK can challenge Mohd Rafi as actor but not singer,If u want say the way u want in this case any one can challenge any one as Pakistani or indian football team can challenge brazil football team,…….
Plz dear Messi walk up from dreams don’t compare,Why u all kk fans like RD?why most of kk fans who know about music they never compare KK with Mohd Rafi they try to compare Mohd rafi with Lata ji?
plz be honest with u r country where a singer like Mohd Rafi born.don’t compare great singers if u want to compare ask who know about music,who have the best song ever singed in bollywood?
KK was good singer as other but Mohd rafi is and will be after hundreds years alive………………………
May 12th, 2007 at 8:58 am
WHOEVER SAYS KISHORE IS BETTER THAN RAFI, HE OR SHE MUST BE A METALLY SICKO. SOME IDIOTS SAY THAT RAFI WAS TRAINED SO KISHORE WAS MORE TALENTED. TO HELL WITH THOSE OPINIONS. THEN AFRIDI IS MUCH MORE TALENTED THAN SACHIN AS SACHIN WAS TRAINED. I KNOW THE SAME VERY KISHORE FANS ARE FANS OF TENDULKAR BUT THEN THEY FORGET THAT SACHIN IS TRAINED.
RAFI COULD SING THEM ALL. THE HARDEST OF HARDEST SONGS WERE SUNG BY RAFI. THEY WERE JUST MADE THINKING OF RAFI, NOT FOR LATA OR MANNA OR ASHA OR MUKESH, LET ALONE KK. “O DUNIYA KE RAKHWALE” IS THE HARDEST SONG IN THE ENTIRE WORLD SUNG BY RAFI. “DEKHI ZAMANE KI YAARI” THE MOST SENTIMENTAL SONG SUNG BY RAFI. KK HAD MUCH EASIER SONGS.
WHEN YOU TALK WITH KISHORE FANS ABOUT SINGING, THEY ALWAYS BRING KK’S OTHER QUALITIES LIKE ACTING, DIRECTING, AND WHATEVER! COME ON GYUS. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SINGING. WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN OTHERS! THEN RAFI FANS ALSO CAN BRING RAFI’S GREATEST QUALITY THAT KK DOESN’T HAVE. HIS HUMANITY AND GREAT BEHAVIOUR. HE EVEN SANG WITHOUT MONEY WHERE KISHORE (THE SPOILED CHILED OF A WEALTHY DAD) ALWAYS DEMENDED MONEY BEFORE SINGING. BANGALIS MOSTLY LIKE KISHORE AS HE WAS BANGALI, THAT’S IT.
IF RAFI WAS BANGALI, THEY WOULD DEFINITELY SAY RAFI WAS MUCH BETTER.
May 12th, 2007 at 11:04 am
Thanks for the compliment. I actually regret posting now seeing what respect the two had for one another. In my defense - I did try to illustrate how LIMITED the comparison was - only within me.
Many Kishore fans will say they don’t care for the song “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale” - that’s perfectly understandable and takes away the need for Kishore to be able to sing it! We cannot impose our likings on others! Sure they’d miss out on appreciation of vocal range but there are many great things in music instead!
Irony8 - Kishore was absolutely right to demand payment first - if he did not he would have been EXPLOITED big time (and he was often when he let his guard down!).
I wouldn’t get too much into the Bengali talk or Muslim. It’s silly to say that Kishore was only popular because he was Bengali! You are right to say that there was some prejudice against Rafi Sahab for being Muslim but isn’t prejudice everywhere? This is not a good topic to get into IMO. Prejudice can work both ways but forget it. One thing is for sure: India sure as hell loved and respected Rafi Sahab - did he get shortchanged sometimes? Maybe. But so did Kishore and Manna Dey and everyone for one reason or another (ethnicity, failure to appreciate talent etc.).
As much fun I had comparing the two, my comparison is really inappropriate and POINTLESS to someone else. Let’s just be grateful that we had BOTH and if you like one then listen to him etc. !
It is tough for me to resist the temptation of comparing but I’d be embarassed to face Rafi sahab if I made demeaning comments about Kishore I just do it in response to other fans who make comments that I find unreasonable.
May 12th, 2007 at 11:12 am
Btw…Udit Narayan actually took singing lessons from Kishore Kumar in the late 80s. Whether this formal “informal lesson” was just done so that Udit could say he took a lesson from Kishore Kumar or if the purpose was to emphasize a specific way of Kishore’s singing, it is interesting.
It is well agreed that Udit is original and not really a member of Rafi school or Kishore school but…IMO he’s closer to Rafi. Rafi was UNIQUE in terms of his amazing quality and completeness but Kishore was more blatantly unique in the sense he was TOTALLY different from anyone else (whereas Rafi and another singer had some things in common but Rafi was just so much better and could do so much more, Kishore had some elements not seen in other singers at all! (Rafi had his own special unique magic and traits too but this is complicated)).
Does Udit yodel like Kishore or sing crazy songs like Kishore regularly? No. Unique to Kishore.
May 12th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
Anil Biswas was totally anti Rafi.He liked Kishoreda’s singing very much.Kishoreda is GOD.Whoever says Rafi is better than Kishoreda,is mad and donkey.
May 12th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Love u Kishoreda more than life.
May 12th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
I don’t know why this Bengali issue has come into the debate. I am a Bengali and there are hundreds of diehard Rafi fans that I personally know of in Kolkata. In Kolkata where I grew up, old-timers used to say, “Rafi is Rafi” to preempt any comparison with other singers. For Bengali songs, Kishore, Manna, Hemant, Lata and Asha (the first three are Bengalis) are definitely much more popular; Rafi sang very few Bengali songs. At one time, Talat (known as Tapan Kumar in Bengal) used to be also popular. But we are talking about Hindi songs and I wish some of you were there at the Netaji Indoor Stadium concert featuring RD, Asha, Kishore and Rafi in 1980. Rafi sang last because if he sang first, Kolkatans would have said, “function noshto hoye galo” (the function got spoiled). The response he evoked was simply unbelievable. Adjacent to the Netaji Indoor Stadium is the famous Eden Gardens, where Kolkatans once protested, “No Mushtaq No test”, and forced the selectors to bring back their favourite Mushtaq Ali. Kolkatans respect musicians and sportsmen for their talent, not for their ethnic or religious background.
May 12th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
Wow…you went to a live concert by Rafi, Lata, and Kishore!?! I wonder how many concerts these three giants did together…that is amazing! You’re very lucky.
May 12th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Why we compare KK with Mohd Rafi?!!!!!plz don’t do that because this is KK site and i want know more about KK,don’t say what u feel but say what is true………..i want know in how many flims KK singed from 1969 to 1976 and how songs he singed can anyone answer me that?
May 12th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
I do not know why this Bengali thing has been drawn into this debate..Bengalis listen to a lot of Bengali songs by Kishore and hence are exposed more to Kishore. Also Kishore’s gayki was closer to the Bengali heart. Having said that, there are millions of rafi fans in bengal, including me. To me Indian music had 3 distinct eras-pre-Rafi era, Rafi era and post-Rafi era. In the pre-Rafi era we had MDs like Anil Biswas, Khemchand Prakash and singers like Saigal, Durrani. In the post Rafi era, quality of songs went downhill though KK, Lata and Asha were there. Rafi was the first one to break from the Saigal, Durrani style and introduce the style that lasts even today. If you liten to KK in his early days, he was imitating Saigal..He changed in the 1950s. To that extent, he was also a follower of the Rafi gharana.
To be fair, let us categorize the different categories of songs of songs in Hindi films and try to name the top 3 male singers in each category (this is my ranking and preference btw, #1 being the best):
A. Classical- 1. Manna De 2. Mohd Rafi 3. Bhupinder Singh
B. Thumris and Ghazals- 1. Mohd. Rafi 2. Talat Mehmood 3. Jagjit Singh
C. Western Rock: 1. Kishore Kumar 2. Amit Kumar 3. Mohd Rafi
D. Devotional: 1. Mohd Rafi 2. Mahendra Kapoor 3. Narendra Chanchal/Manna De
E. Sad songs-1. Mohd Rafi 2. Mukesh 3. Kishore Kumar (some people may swap #1 and #2)
F. Happy songs- 1. Kishore Kumar 2. Mohd. Rafi 3. Lot of new singers (Sonu, Sanu, Udit………)
G Patriotic songs: 1. Mohd Rafi 2. Mahendra Kapoor 3. Manna De
I love Kishore songs as well, but I would welcome anyone to fill the list and explore if there is ANY category where Rafi does not figure. To me he is the bridge between the world of Kishore and the world of Mehdi Hasaan and Ghulam Ali.. Rafi was a phenomenon. Kishore’s expressions are understandable, he was an actor. But where did this man who was an introvert get all the expressions that we hear in “Chalkaye jaam” and “Arre Sambhalo (Khuda Kasam)”..
May 13th, 2007 at 3:00 am
Sorry missed another classification:
H. Qawwali 1. Nusrat 2. Mohd Rafi 3. Manna De/Sailendra Singh
In short there is no song catgory where Rafi does not appear
May 13th, 2007 at 4:30 am
Manish, the concert I referred to did not feature Lata; it had RD & Asha, Kishore and Rafi (in that order). At the same venue, Rafi performed along with Bhupinder and Runa Laila in 1979, and with Kishore and Runa Laila in 1977. I was fortunate to attend all of them. In 1967 at the Rabindra Sadan Stadium in Kolkata, the whole world of music was there for the Ashok Kumar Nite, but riots broke out before Rafi, Lata, Kishore or Mukesh could reach the venue! That’s Kolkata for you; not a place for the weak-hearted.
Sudip, I liked your analysis but I’d differ with you on two points. For classical songs, I would rate Rafi No. 1. Madhuban mein radhika is the kohinoor of Indian film music, and Man tadpat hari darshan is the finest exposition of Malkhauns to date. It’s difficult to pigeonhole Rafi into any genre, unlike Manna whom we view mainly a classical singer, Talat as a ghazal singer or Mukesh as a singer of sad songs.
I’d rate Rafi No. 1 in the rock ‘n roll category too. He was the first to sing in that genre (Laal laal gaal jaan pe hai labu in Mr. X) and he worked wonders for Shammi; for example, listen to Aaj kal tere mere pyar ke charche from Brahmachari or Aaja aaja main hun pyar tera. The way the way the western audiences have reacted to a much lesser known song from Gumnam (Jaan pechchan ho has been used in the titles of Ghost World) is incredible.
The dimension that Kishore was better in — again, in my humble opinion — was in songs like Yeh jo mohabbat hai, Yeh dil na hota bechara, Yeh kya hua, Zindagi ek safar, Bhanwre ke gunjan and yes, at the risk of committing blasphemy, Tum bin jawoon kahan. I don’t know how to label that genre, probably just call it the Kishore genre, so unique was his full-throated rendition in those songs. I also sometimes wonder if Rafi could have the had the same effect as Kishore in Phoolon ke rang se (Prem Pujari) but I think the old man made a wise decision. Ultimately, it’s the effect that matters and the fact that Kishore could dethrone the mighty Rafi is a tribute to his talent. Rafi came back in 1976 with a bang and at the time of his death, both he and Kishore were at the top. What would have happened if Rafi didn’t die prematurely is anybody’s guess, but it’d be fair to point out that he had the momentum and RD was being forced to use Rafi more and more. If Kya hua tera wada and Maine poochha chand se were in the Tumne mujhe dekha genre, Yamma yamma belonged to the Aaja Aaja main hoon pyar tera style. And I couldn’t believe that RD could compose qawaalis till I heard Hai agar dushman (HKKN) and Pal do pal ke saath hamara (Burning Train). But before RD and Rafi could recreate their memories of the 60s in the 80s, the man Kolkatans lovingly called ROFI was gone!
May 13th, 2007 at 10:04 am
Kishoreda is infinity times better than Rafi.
May 13th, 2007 at 11:37 am
kishore’da by far is the best playback singer,he had everything inspite of not receiving any formal training, the 50’s and 60’s belonged to rafi..but after aradhana, it was a single way journey to the top for kishore, and he is still there as an uncrowned king!
May 13th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Bapan, you’re totally wrong, you’re a bengali and KK was ben[gali]… Rafi Saheb is the best playback singer of India.
May 13th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Manish Kumar, i do agree with you……. Rafi Saheb was a legends legend.
May 13th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
Sir Jayanta,
Are you KK fan?!!!!!!do u know who used this word uncrowned king?Do u think that Aradhana was hit because of Music if yes there are two mohd Rafi super hit songs with Lata ji….would u please give me list of KK flims from 1969 to 1976…….Do u know who is KK?
Sir Sudip,
thanks for u list of Western Rock as u said 1. Kishore Kumar 2. Amit Kumar 3. Mohd Rafi!!!!!but If u know first bollywood song was copied was rock song made by Ravi and singed by Mohd Rafi,u put KK and Amit Kummar before Mohd Rafi!!!!!!!!in flims songs no one can be number one else than mohd rafi………….
sorry to say there some people in this site they don’t know about kk how great actor he was they try to say some thing said to other like uncrowned king said by Raj Kapoor to Mohd Rafi he didn’t Mohd Rafi but he said the true
May 13th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
Music directors like Anil Biswas, C. Ramchandra, Salil Chaudhry, etc… who were anti Rafi never reached to top, but they came down very fast. But others like SJ, Naushad, LP, KA, Ravi, etc.. prefered Rafi Saheb remained on top. This shows Rafi Saheb’s high class.
May 14th, 2007 at 2:53 am
P Haldar:
I agree with your analysis but I have my own ranking.. But more importantly, your comment on Kishore’s style is absolutely correct. It is very difficult to argue with Kishore’s fans because they only care about that genre. If you confine your preferences to that genre, you cannot like anyone other than Kishore (and possibly his son). Technically it is the same gayki used in Rabindra Sangeets-full throated voice with lot of bass. Rafi’s technique and style is closer to another line of Bengali songs i.e. Nazrool Geeti. Based on similar judgements, I prefer Nazrool Geeti to Rabindra Sangeet. Kishore’s voice is golden but pretty unidimensional with a few variations here and there, the tone is pretty much the same irrespective of the mood. Rafi’s voice is like a river with variations in every turn.
This is the reason why sentimental songs of Kishore can be played anywhere, in puja pandals, in weddings, everywhere.. Rafi makes a clear distinction in treatment between songs that are made for puja pandals and songs that can be only listened to in pensive solitude. I have never heard “Aapke haseen rukh pe aaj naya noor hai” or “Tumse kahoon ek baat” or “Kahin ek masoom nazuk si ladki” in puja pandals.
No one has responded to my list of categories/genres and tried to see how the greats figure in that list..If they had done, they would clearly find out why the Outlook magazine and countless people nominated Rafi as the greatest playback singer of all time.
May 14th, 2007 at 8:46 am
Undoubtedly,Kishoreda is the greatest of all playback singers.Initially he focussed more on acting,he was also a great actor.Later,when he turned only to singing,Rafi and other singers were sweeped out.
May 14th, 2007 at 8:48 am
Yes Jayanta,Kishoreda is the king.Everyone fromRD,SD,LP,K-A,Rajesh Roshan,Bappi Lahiri,Hemant Kumar,Salilda,Anil Biswas preferred Kishoreda to any other singer.
May 14th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Dear Sudip,
I’m glad to know that there’s someone on the same wavelength. The three songs of Rafi’s that you mention were composed by OP, Madan Mohan and Khayyam, all Rafi loyalists. In particular, I have immense respect for Madan Mohan for never wavering in his support for Rafi, even during his lean period. What pains me is when people start attributing compositions like “Tum jo mil gaye ho” to their loRD. It started with the SD tunes, some of which may be valid. But when some of those fanatics started claiming that “Kahin bekhayal hokar” from Teen Deviyan was also copied by the old man from his son, I realized that these guys would say anything to prove their point. A recent thread in this group has discovered the similarities between “Kuchh na kaho kuchh bhi na kaho” (1942: A Love Story) and Dekhi Zamane ke Yaari” (Kagaz ke Phool). I won’t be surprised if someday there’s an announcement that it was actually the younger Burman who composed the latter tune! Actually, the other hit from 1942 (Ed ladki ko dekha to aisa laga) is reminiscent of Rafi’s “Dil ka bhanwar kare pukar” (TGKS). Needless to say, if Kishore and Rafi were both alive and if RD had the power to dictate, both the 1942 songs would have gone to his favourite Kishore. SD’s selection of singers, on the other hand, was exceptionally good, rivaled perhaps by SJ.
We are blessed that our country produced such great singers as Kishore, Lata, Manna, Asha, Mukesh and Geeta. But in the history of playback singing, Rafi stands as the tallest (no offence to Kishore fans; they are entitled to their own opinions). Unlike the Mangeshkar sisters, Rafi did not have a publicity machine and he didn’t care for one either. To him it was the song that mattered. And when I listen to the strains of “Dekhi zamane ke yari” almost 50 years after he lip-synched for Guru Dutt, I don’t think there’s any singer — dead or alive, male or female, North or South, Bengali or non-Bengali — who would even come close.
May 14th, 2007 at 10:20 am
Sudip, rather than focusing on genres, I have listed below the singers who are similar to Rafi in different ways:
Kishore’s vibrance and “masti”
Asha’s versatility and range
Lata’s technical perfection and melody
Manna’s “ustadi”
Mukesh’s pathos
Talat’s silky touch
Geeta’s sensuousness
Hemant’s sweetness
May 14th, 2007 at 10:43 am
Oops God !!! I have told infinite times not to compare like this. It seems most of the above
are just crap, except few tells some truth but not foolish.
Some of the above posts are really horrible, I mean I doubt on their age and maturity.
They are great siners man, Rafi vs. Kishore debate is just too much.
Again this religion fact is so ugly. Learn some manner man and change your attitude.
May 14th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Hi Messi, the KK-Rafi wars used to be much worse when they were alive. Believe me, they have become much more subdued now. Those days, you couldn’t say anything good about the singer in the other camp, such was the animosity. We should all try to tone down a bit, especially with respect to religion and ethnicity.
Sudip, you made a very interesting remark on the two different styles of Rabindra sangeet and Nazrul geeti (for the uninitiated, those are respectively the compositions of Rabindranath Tagore and Kazi Nazrul Islam, two of Bengal’s greatest poets). Satyajit Ray made excellent use of Kishore in Charulata (Ami chini go chi tomare). Much later, when Rajesh Roshan lifted the tune of another Rabindra sangeet (Tomar holo suru amar holo sara) for the “Chhoo kar mere manko” song in Yarana, Kishore was incredible. It sounded better than the original! Rafi, as you have rightly pointed out, would be way ahead in Nazrul geeti given that it’s closer to classical-based ghazals. In fact, he cut an LP disc titled “Aajo modhuro bansori baaje” a month or two before he died. But I want to point out that Rabindra sangeet itself has a myriad of styles, some of which are classical-based, and I’d venture to add that Rafi would have done full justice to those songs. The song “Piu bole piya bole” from Parineeta is also based on a Rabindra sangeet and I’m sure Rafi would have excelled in that soft, romantic song too.
May 14th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
rafi fans must admit, that rafi was going great guns during the 50’s and 60’s, where most great MDs’ prefferred him more, but during tat time, kishore was concentrating more on acting rather than more on singing!
and after aradhana things changed altogether, kishore rose to the top, and it was a one way journey!
May 14th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
“fromRD,SD,LP,K-A,Rajesh Roshan,Bappi Lahiri,Hemant Kumar,Salilda,Anil Biswas preferred Kishoreda to any other singer.”
They went with the tide (producers’ preference).
And who told you that KK was #1 singer for Hemant, SD and LP?
-Hemanta’s son in a recent interview has stated that his dad used to think that there was no one even close to Rafi (even Nitin Mukesh had a similar opinion).
-Rafi was undoubtedly SD’s favorite singer. Even during the lean days, SD made sure Rafi gets some footprint in the songs. Rafi weaved magic with the single songs he got in Abhimaan and Gambler, for instance.
-Time and again, LP has told that Rafi was their numero uno singer. KK had sung 396 songs for LP and Rafi had sung 369, but 140 of those KK songs were recorded after Rafi’s death.
Pls check facts before commenting.
May 15th, 2007 at 6:38 am
Adding:
“fromRD,SD,LP,K-A,Rajesh Roshan,Bappi Lahiri,Hemant Kumar,Salilda,Anil Biswas preferred Kishoreda to any other singer.”
They went with the tide (producers’ insistence because Kishore was selling).
And who told you that KK was #1 singer for Hemant, SD and LP?
-Hemanta’s son (Jayanta Mukherjee) in a recent interview has stated that his dad used to think that there was no one even close to Rafi (even Nitin Mukesh had a similar opinion).
-Rafi was undoubtedly SD’s favorite singer. Even during the lean days, SD made sure Rafi gets some footprint in the songs. Rafi weaved magic with the single songs he got in Abhimaan and Gambler, for instance.
-Time and again, LP has told that Rafi was their numero uno singer. KK had sung 396 songs for LP and Rafi had sung 369, but 140 of those KK songs were recorded after Rafi’s death.
-Mukesh was K-A’s favorite singer, not Kishore. Kishore may have sung more songs for KA, but that does not prove anything. It is like saying Anu Malik prefers Alka to Lata because Alka has sung more songs for him. It is purely a circumstantial issue, nothing to do with who he thinks a better singer is.
-Same with Rajesh Roshan. They used Rafi selectively because of their style. Unless Rajesh thought his dad (Roshan) was an idiot, who understood zilch of music, there is no reason why he would think badly of Rafi.
That leaves us with RD and Bappi. I have nothing to tell about RD except thay wanted a fresh voice and Kishore provided that.
Bappi was Kishore’s nephew..I do not need to justify further.
Pls check facts before commenting.
May 15th, 2007 at 8:14 am
Sudip - I have some questions. Can you rank the singers used the most by Shankar Jaikishan? Also, are you sure about SD choosing Rafi the most? I agree this was the case before 1969 but when RD took over, SD had little say. Did SD ever really compose after 1969 and if so, didn’t he “realize” that Kishore was the way to go (essentially, SD changed his mind to Kishore now seeing the popularity)? I of course, like Rafi the most, but I do think Kishore provided a fresh alternative after Rafi had dominated for 20 years and so the shift in dominance for a short while was inevitable.
Interesting point about LP - when I read the beginning of your sentence, I was shocked - and then I realized yeah, they recorded more with KK after 1980.
May 15th, 2007 at 10:57 am
Hi Guys,
There was nothing wrong in SD, RBD’s way of thinking. They just tried with different
singers, they know the calibre of the singers so gave different songs to different singers
and when you listen to them, you will feel this is the only singer who can do justice to this
song. This is how it works, it’s not that others can’t sing it.
Be it Hum kisi se Kam nahi, Guide, Amar Prem, Aradhana: songs are of different genres
so the voices suit them perfectly. Don’t find faults in Singers and Composers man.
Sudip, Haldar I agree. Let’s now move on to discussing different short stories/conversations
between Rafi and Kishore. Whoever knows anything, please post.
At least, stop this good, the bad and the ugly business.
May 15th, 2007 at 11:25 am
Don’t get me wrong. I think Kishore Kumar had a terrific voice.. He is the voice of the youth.. He represents the exuberance and freshness of youth, something that rightly fit RD’s kind of music. But extending that to say he is the #1 singer is oversimplifying judgement on music.
Rafi was the #1 singer in SJ’s list, to the extent that I personally think SJ overused him. Apart from Rangoli (1962) I cannot recall any other film where Kishore gave hits under SJ banner before Aradhana. SJ used Kishore more after Aradhana, but by that time interestingly Shankar and Jaikishan had also parted (though they were operating under the SJ banner). To the best of my knowledge one preferred KK while the other preferred Rafi after their separation.
SD’s post-Aradhana association with Rafi is excellently captured here:
http://inhome.rediff.com/movies/2000/oct/31burman.htm
I think there were two factors in play here:
1. Producers usually went with the market pulse and it is an established fact that Kishore’s freshness was well accepted among the masses during the early 1970s.
2. The arrival of new set of actors also heralded this transition. Lot of music directors like KA always went for an actor-singer combination. Kishore was Kalyanji’s de-facto choice for Amitabh and Rajesh Khanna (Raaz, Choti Bahu, etc are exceptions), Rafi for Vinod Khanna, Shashi Kapoor and Anil Dhawan, Mahendra Kapoor for Manoj Kumar (there were few exceptions here and there). I doubt if Amitabh had Rajendra Kumar’s personality and voice, the transition would have been that welcome.
May 15th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Dear Sudip,
If there is real king as MD I think RD is not in best five,As I think the best is 1,SJ boz they had hit songs With all singer who singed for they,2,Naushand boz he changed the way f music,3,LP after SJ I think they had hit with most of singer who singed for them,4,Madam Mohan who made magic with Mohd Rafi and Lata Ji voice,5, SD burman who dade magic with Dev Anand with Mohd Rafi as I think….
May 16th, 2007 at 6:03 am
Let us salute the singers and music directors for the gems they have delivered for us. Sudip, I’m not sure if the numbers you’ve given are correct. I’ve seen elsewhere that LP have composed the maximum songs (including duets) for Rafi, though SJ gave Rafi the maximum number of solos. Shankar was more inclined toward Manna and Mukesh, while Jai was Rafi-oriented. Being the exceptional talent that he was, Jai used Kishore very effectively too in Zindagi ek safar, Bhanwre ke gunjan and Geet gaat hoon main. But Rafi was his real star: Baharon phool barsaon, Yeh mera prempatra kar, most of the Shammi songs,… But I agree with Sudip that Jai overused Rafi to the extent that some of his songs became a trite boring. Also, Jai gave Rafi the maximum freedom to maneouvre and Rafi sometimes overdid the gimmicks part. But the biggest blow to Rafi, which surprisingly no one touches on, is Jai’s death in 1971. If Jai were alive, he could have used Rafi to counter RD’s rise. With Jai gone and OP’s fortunes going steeply downward, there was no one to give a real boost to Rafi in the early 70s.
Unlike SJ, Naushad wouldn’t give any freedom to Rafi or, for that matter, any other singer. It had to be his way. SD would give Rafi more room (e.g., the way he cracks his voice in the last stanza in Din dhal jaye or his playful banter with Asha in Achha ji main haar gaya maan jawo na) but it was always under control. In an interview SD gave in the early 70’s, he called Rafi his first serve and Kishore his second. It didn’t mean that he preferred Rafi to Kishore. What he meant was that he would try hard to serve aces with Rafi (Hum bekhudi mein tum, Khoya khoya chand, Din dhal jaye) but sometimes they went wayward. With Kishore he wanted to be more sure.
Rafi’s voice had so many degrees of freedom that it was much more difficult to rein all of them in together. Kishore’s advantage and appeal lay in the fact that he could sing straight in his open-throated, rich voice. In fact, the lack of training was to his advantage. If he had received formal training (like Rafi and Manna), I’m not sure he would have able to reach the heights he did.
In terms of MDs, for Kishore it is Burman & Burman. Take them out, and there’s not a whole lot; some LP, some KA, and some others. One of you mentioned Salil, but Salil’s favourites were Mukesh, Hemant and Talat; never cared much for Rafi or Kishore.
For Rafi here are the top MDs (the order keeps changing for me ever so often): SD, Naushad, SJ, Madan Mohan, OP, Roshan, Khayyam, LP and Ravi. Among all these MDs, SD and Madan Mohan made the most innovative experimentations with his voice.
Anil Biswas’s favourite singers were Talat, Mukesh and Manna. As for the comment he made regarding Rafi (”Rafi is no singer”), let me remind Kishore’s fans what their guru said in response: “It’s a stupid statement. I am his greatest fan”. To Rafi, what Anil, Salil or Anna said didn’t matter. At the end of the day, he knew that he was better than anyone in making your hearts sing. When you talk about Rafi, you’ll have to identify which Rafi you are talking about. There are so many Rafi’s; the Rafi of Man tadpat darshan and Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare, the Rafi of Suhani raat dhal chuki and Hum bekhudi mein tumko pukare, the Rafi of Tumhare zulf ke sayen mein and Jaane kya dhoonti rahati, the Rafi or Baharon phool barsao and Tere mere sapne, the Rafi of Madhuban mein radhika and Naache man mora magan dhikna dhiki dhiki, the Rafi of Yeh ishq ishq ishq and Parda hai parda, the Rafi of Yahoo chahe koi mujhe jungle kahe and Cuckoo mast baharon ka main aashiq, the Rafi of Aaja aaja main hoon pyar tera and Aaj kal tere mere pyar ke charche,…. The list is endless. He started so many genres in playback singing; it’s simply mind-boggling! Ultimately, Rafi can compete only with Himself.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:11 am
Glad to hear that Jaikishan was on Rafi’s side. I always liked Jaikishan over Shankar! Yeah, I had wondered what’d happen if Jaikishan had been around. Nevertheless, you forgot (of course you knew) to mention that LP was competition to RDB in the 70s. Sudip, where do you post? I recall a few years back people marvelled on your great knowledge of music. I certainly do. Thanks for your informative posts.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:12 am
Oh yeah, sorry, one more question.
Can you guys give me examples where Rafi seemed over used or the song was boring (esp Jaikishan songs!). It’d still be good I’m sure, just not the usual SJ or Rafi standards! But I’m curious…I’d like to see the sun not be so bright…if that is possible
May 16th, 2007 at 9:13 am
Actually, my question was addressed to both P Haldar and Sudip about where they post.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:34 am
Very insightful and almost ditto with my own analysis..I think the best example of Rafi’s innovations under the SJ banner is “Main kahin Kavi na ban jayoo” (Pyar hi Pyar). The antaras are sung with subtle variations, almost to an intoxicating degree. In the last antara, “Yeh jhooki jhooki nigahen” has been sung such that one can feel the eyelids drooping. Everytime I listen to this line, I get amazed to almost magical proportions. Following closely would be “Tauba tauba” in “Main Nigahen Teri Chehre Se” (App Ki Parchhaiyan)
The love for a particular type of song (which Mr Haldar bracketted as “Kishore genre”) drives most KK fans towards KK. And I think they are perfectly entitled to their opinion. Most KK fans like Rafi’s “Wadiyaan Mera daman” and the truth is I thought it is just an Okay song.. It has nothing to do with Rafi, I think it is just a flat, easy song belonging to the Kishore genre. RD could have well gone with KK for that one. I wouldn’t care less.
One Kishore song that I think never reached the popularity it deserved was “Bahut Khubsurat jawa ek ladki” (Dostana)..I think it was very well sung on a great composition.
The place where I differ with Haldar is that I never liked KK’s singing in “Chookar Mere manko”. I know I run the risk of being a minority (if not being single), but I think the song was sung in falsetto and not in true voice. If Rajesh Roshan was indeed looking for a mellowed voice he could have gone for lot of singers including our very own R..There is no point hiding true voice for falsetto.
May 16th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Mind you Rafians and Kishore Da fans (espocially Mr. Bapan)
__________________________________________________
I am sorry to read the the comments of fans of two greates ever singers in the history of film music in so far as male playback singers are concerned. It is really unfortunate that one of the Kishore Da’s Fans (Mr. Bapan) holds Kishore Da infinite times better than Rafi Saab while Rafi fans hold Rafi Saab as the best ever singer.
Both Rafi Saab and Kishore Da were/are/will always be legends of legends. All the readers will be surprised to know that despite belonging to the same field/arena of work, both the singers were great friends and had great respect for each others work/talent. Even when both were on top of the film music (Rafi Saab reportedly during 1950-1969 and Kishore Kumar reportedly 1970-1987), they refrained from saying anything bad for each other. It is only the fan fallowing of both the singers during their life time or after they are no which has for the sake of satisfying their ego or seeing their favourite singer as the best assessed singer have tried to degrade the work/rendition of other singer. Fan followings of both the singers has nor been analytic in the approach. The approach should be to praise the good works of both the singers. Rather they have adopted the practice of belittling the work/renditions of other singer in order to get their favourite the first position in the film music. They have forgotten that both Rafi Saab and Kishore Da not only were greatest ever singer but also were great human beings. Once when a film personality in the recording room of R.D. Burman tried to appease Kishore Kumar at the cost of degrading Rafi Saab, Kishore Kumar replied immediately that he himself is also a great Rafi fan and he knew how it is difficult to maintain oneself at the peak of film music for the long 20 years. Likewise, Rafi Saab had great respect for Kishore Kumar’s natural talent as a singer/actor. According to Mr. Zahir (Rafi Saab’s Brother-in-law and Secretary), whenever Rafi Saab had to sing with Kishore Da, he would say that he would laugh the whole day. Not only this, whenever Rafi Saab came across any good composition from any of his colleagues (be it Kishore Da), he would congratulate him/her/them over phone. After the release of ‘Aradhana’, when Kishore Da assumed the top position in the film music, Rafi Saab in an interview replied in response to a question that now he was getting less work that-” it is good that he would do only the selected songs and Kishore Kumar is singing very well”.
Both the singers, Rafi Saab and Kishore Da have rendered many songs which no other singer can sing to that perfection. If Rafi Saab is Tansen in the film music, Kishore Kumar is Baiju Bawra and Manna Dey is Guru Hari Das. However, this does not mean that as Baiju Bawra defeated Tansen in the music battle as per mythology, Kishore Kumar is better than Rafi Saab. Likewise, claiming Rafi to be the better singer than Kishore Kumar at the cost of maligning the work of Kishore Kumar by the Rafians is not right. We (both the fans of Rafi Saab and Kishore Da) should give full respect to both the singers keeping in view the fact that both the singers had great respect for each other and each others work/talent/rendition because only that way we would be respecting our respective favourite singers.
( NARESH KUMAR SHARMA)
A RAFIAN
nks_ab9@indiatimes.com
May 16th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Dear sir,
I agree that KK was a good singer and great actor but i don’t agree that he was at top from 1970 to 1987 becaue in 1970’s there was many new singer because Mohd Rafi went to world tour the MD was looking to some one new to sing Mohd Rafi songs one of them is Anwar.about the top as I think there is one name at the top until today.
Name like Naushand,RAVI,O P Nayar LP they beleave that there music was hit because of Mohd Rafi and we same something else Do we know how great these people are in music world?
May 17th, 2007 at 1:17 am
Manish:
SJ’s overuse of Rafi was not necessarily in terms of percentage of songs..But to me in lot of films SJ put a whole cocktail songs..I do not know if it was an SJ thing or the director’s discretion, but it is a fact that most films where SJ scored the music had a lot of songs. We come to know about the good ones, we never care about the others that never hit the charts. Take Janwar, Budtameez and Yakeen, for example. They had lot of numbers beyond the popular one. Moreover SJ mostly gave high pitch compositions to Rafi (because he could do justice to them)..But this also meant a higher burn out/overuse for Rafi for unnecessary reasons.
LP did try to go against the RD-Kishore wave, but as I said before producers and to some extent, actors were so keen on riding the tide that they also succumbed. Take 1972 for example, Kishore was in his peak form, producing hits after hits. LP used Rafi in Ek Nazar, Gora Aur Kala, Roop tera mastana, etc. If you listen to the songs you will find that qualitatively they are no less, if not better than some of the songs produced during the period. Ek Nazar, to me produced the best Amitabh Bacchan duet till date (Patta patta boota boota), but there were few takers. Roop Tera Mastana produced the most sensuous and seductive song of the period (Haseen dilruba), but it did not figure among top Jeetendra hits of the time.
Between 1971 and 1975 Kishore gave one hit after another, largely backed by the younger Burman et al. No other singer (with the exception of Kumar Sanu between 1990 and 1995-not joking, btw) in the history of Hindi movie did produce such a phenomenon in a 5 year period. Rafi’s supremacy was spread over a period-it was consistent, not a spike.
May 17th, 2007 at 1:19 am
Correcting the typos, etc:
Manish:
SJ’s overuse of Rafi was not necessarily in terms of percentage of songs..But to me in lot of films SJ put a whole cocktail of songs..I do not know if it was an SJ thing or the director’s discretion, but it is a fact that most films where SJ scored the music had a lot of songs. We come to know about the good ones, we never care about the others that never hit the charts. Take Janwar, Budtameez and Yakeen, for example. They had lot of numbers beyond the popular one. Moreover SJ mostly gave high pitch compositions to Rafi (because he could do justice to them)..But this also meant a higher burn out/overuse for Rafi for unnecessary reasons.
LP did try to go against the RD-Kishore wave, but as I said before, producers and, to some extent actors, were so keen on riding the tide that LP also succumbed. Take 1972 for example. Kishore was in his peak form, producing hits after hits. LP used Rafi in Ek Nazar, Gora Aur Kala, Roop tera mastana, etc. If you listen to the songs you will find that qualitatively they are no less, if not better than some of the songs produced during the period. Ek Nazar, to me produced the best Amitabh Bacchan duet till date (Patta patta boota boota), but there were few takers. Roop Tera Mastana produced the most sensuous and seductive song of the period (Haseen dilruba), but it did not figure among top Jeetendra hits of the time.
Between 1971 and 1975 Kishore gave one hit after another, largely backed by the younger Burman et al. No other singer (with the exception of Kumar Sanu between 1990 and 1995-not joking, btw) in the history of Hindi movie did produce such a phenomenon in a 5 year period. Rafi’s supremacy was spread over a period-it was consistent, not a spike.
May 17th, 2007 at 4:59 am
I’d urge some of the RAFIans to cool down a bit on their anti-Bengali rhetoric. Imagine film music without the likes of Pankaj Mullick, Raichand Boral, Anil Biswas, K. C. Dey, S. D. Burman, Salil Chowdhury, Hemant Kumar, Manna Dey, Geeta Dutt, R. D. Burman and Kishore Kumar. And there are so many others — Runa Laila, Arati Mukherji, Bappi Lahiri, Kumar Sanu — to name only a few.
The day after Rafi died, AIR Calcutta invited Raichand Boral, one of the stalwarts of New Theatres and Bombay Talkies, to say a few words. This is what I recollect about what he said. Boral was composing a song in the kirtan style (a Bengali devotional form of singing) and he was a little apprehensive about a Punjabi Muslim being able to do full justice to the song. If Rafi was not up to the mark, he thought he would get Bengal’s own Dhananjoy Bhattacharyya to sing the kirtan. Anyway, Rafi was summoned to the rehearsal room. After a couple of rehearsals, Rafi requested Boral to give him a few minutes of free time. During that time, Boral recalled, Rafi went to one corner of the room, did his namaz, and came back for the final take. Boral was simply floored when he heard the final version.
K. C. Dey, the famous blind singer of Bengal and Manna Dey’s uncle, also used to love Rafi. Manna Dey, in his autobiography (Jeeboner jolsaghore), narrates how his uncle used to make him sing a composition several times and then ask him to call Rafi to pick up the tune. SD used to do the same. Salil, contrary to public opinion, did not dislike Rafi; in fact, he held him in high esteem. Salil’s centerpiece was Lata and his surrounding cast included Mukesh, Talat and Hemant. Salil was brilliant, but not an allrounder in the SD or SJ sense. Even if he had used Rafi more, I don’t think it would have elevated him to a higher level. His tunes were ideal for Mukesh and Talat.
The Bengali MD who missed out big time on Rafi was RD. Here was a composer with so much raw talent and with such a great understanding of orchestration (SJ, Salil and OP were also excellent in orchestration). But somehow he kept Rafi at a distance. And Chhote Nawab could compose in so many idioms — rock ‘n roll, classical, folk, soft romantic, etc. Yet, except in the 60s when he had no choice and in the late 70’s during Rafi’s second coming, he totally disregarded Rafi. Take Mere Nain Sawan Bhadon; where was the need to use Kishore for that song? Kishore fans, please don’t get upset; Kishore himself lists that song in his top 10 list, but you know what I mean? Or take Hume tumse pyar kitna (I’m not 100% sure whether Rafi was alive at the time). These songs are not Kishore’s forte. But the real missed opportunity was Badi sooni sooni re from Mili; it was an SD composition but the story is that because of Dada’s ill health, RD did the final recording. If SD were calling the shots, I can’t be fully sure if he would have used Rafi, given that by that time his loyalties were shifting Kishore-ward, but can you imagine the effect had Rafi sung the song? Probably another Hum bekhudi mein tumko pukare chale gaye! Incidentally, Kishore lists this song also in his top 10.
On the other side of the coin, let’s look at an example of a song that Kishore could have done full justice to. Rafi actually playbacked for Kishore in this song: Ajab hai dastan teri hai zindagi in the film Shararat. SJ were the composers. Think about the tune; Kishore could have sung this song easily and effectively in his unique, straight voice. But we need to admire Kishore for giving the song to Rafi without a fuss. The effect? Any less? I’ll let you decide.
May 17th, 2007 at 5:03 am
This analysis here is interesting. Both Rafi and KK were great singers, but I am with P. Haldar and Sudip on this one, Rafi was indeed a phenomenon, but this is not to degrade other singers in any way possible. KK was also a genuine talent, and had his own unique style.
P. Haldar, you read my mind about SJ. I have always wondered what if Jai were alive, how the situation would have been different. SJ officialy broke up after Sangam, in fact they composed seperately right from the 50’s, however they used to work on eachothers songs together, give inputs etc. It was only after Sangam that they actually composed seperately for different banners but also coming together for projects. However both were inclined towards Rafi, and they both composed beauties for him.
The interesting part is that after Jai passed away, most of the SJ banners went to RDB. Contrary to popular belief, SJ were not finished by 1970, they had many big banners signed for future films with all the big filmmakers and producers and with one single stroke it all broke down and Shankar had to pick up the pieces by himself with all those banners gone. Had Jai lived, I think the situation would have been different. Mind you, KK would still have gotten his time to shine in the early to mid seventies, but with a different scenario. As we know it, it was a battle between RD, LP, KA and even SD on the charts with others following suit, with contributions here and there. Out of the four it was the Burmans mostly towards KK, also using Rafi, LP was to Rafi but also using KK, and KA struck a balance. Had Jai been alive, he would have probably used KK but Rafi would have definitely there as well, most likely even more. The top song of 1971 was Jai’s Zindagi Ek Safar by KK, he passed away way too young, in fact at the age of just 39, he still had a lot in him, and Shankar would have not gone out the way he did had Jai lived. RDB also had immense regard for Jai, he was influenced by his jazz compositions and by his talent, Jai taught Kalyanji balancing and mixing in the studios and ofcourse Laxmikant was a huge Jai fan, just like Rafi was a phenomenon so were SJ, and for me particularly Jai, no one could compose romantic songs the way he could. He was the complete composer by all standards.
Secondly, the Bengali topic gets out of hand sometimes, I know of a huge lot of Bengali’s who are Rafi fans. It is the media who has created the impression that the majority of Bengali’s don’t like Rafi and like KK because he was Bengali, this is utter nonesense and crap (mind the language), I hope people do not believe such idiotic statements.
Another interesting point is that although we here of RD-KK, RD-Rafi has been underappreciated. I acknowledge RD as a trendsetter, he was a very talented musician even though he looked to inspirations from the West quite a bit, I wish he had used Rafi a bit more. But he did use Rafi for many great songs, and was his second most used singer for most of his career. If you look at RD’s memorable songs from the 70’s and early 80’s. it will have Rafi right there, that is where the irony lies. Take Churaliya Hai Tumne, Maine Poocha (which was a whopper Rafi hit when released), Kya Hua Tera, one of his finest from the 70’s, Gulaabi Aankhen etc. Rafi is right there. RD’s best albums contain Rafi, and after HKSKN RD could never achieve the same success until 1942 ALS. Yes, he did have a soft spot for KK and that is understandable. It is popular belief that RD didn’t compose for Rafi after Aradhana, which is again false, in fact he was right there until 1972. RD composed for many low-budget films and in those films there are many hidden gems by all singers including Rafi and the early 70’s was RD’s most creative period. From about 73-76 we have Rafi making choice appearances, some attribute this to RD looking at Rafi from only a meledious angle, yet they were nice songs, and then 76 onwards he returns more frequently. We did miss out on the RD-Rafi magic, most of the 80’s.
I also agree with Sudip, Rafi would feature in any category of singing, its not a fair comparison for Rafi to be matched against any singer. Also Rafi would feature in many MD’s top list, whereas for KK it is mostly the Burmans, as pointed out followed by others. But this does NOT take anything away from KK being a great singer in his own right.
P. Haldar and Sudip, I am interested in knowing your views on RDB vis a vis Rafi, what is your take on this combination.
May 17th, 2007 at 6:39 am
I forgot to mention, that both S & J also did think highly of RDB. Satish Wagle the producer of ‘Namak Haram’ (and one of Jai’s close friends) wanted Shankar to do the score that film, after Jai passed away, but Shankar insisted he give the film to RDB because RD was talented and coming up as an MD.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:10 am
Besides the Burmans who really backed Kishore, the other MD’s Kishore sang for quite a bit were LP, Bappi Lahiri, Rajesh Roshan, and KA. LP and KK combined for quite a few songs between 80-87 when Rafi had passed away. For Rafi, the MD list is endless.
Yes, I fully agree RD missed out big on using Rafi. Rafi sang about 120 odd songs compared to the almost 600 that Kishore sang for the Junior Burman. I don’t think that was justice to Rafi’s talent. RD hardly paid attention to Rafi for his classical based themes as well. There are ofcourse the qawwalis, but in films like Kinara, Aandhi, Parichay etc. he chose Bhupinder instead, not to say Bhupinder didn’t do a good job, its just that the Rafi effect would have been different.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:32 am
Hi myk, I discussed issues related to the RD-Rafi combo in my previous email. But I think you are more interested in knowing why RD didn’t use Rafi a little more. Honestly, I don’t know what the correct answer is, but I don’t think it was out of malice, given that RD was a genuinely nice soul. If you force me to give me an answer, I would say that RD wanted to break away from his father’s shadow, and what better way than to sideline Rafi? Trendsetters do things that go against the run-of-the-mill thinking, and if you consider that group of MDs, the top ones were SJ, OP, SD and RD. All of them did things that were pretty unconventional.
There is another hypothesis that you could mull on. It is not founded on any evidence, but I just have that sneaking suspicion that at the back of his mind RD knew that if Rafi came back on top, LP could give him hell with their favourite weapon. That is exactly what happened after HKHN; LP started giving the entire score of a film (e.g., Sargam) to Rafi, which meant that RD had to follow suit. Record songs with Rafi and have jalebi and halwa at Rafi’s favourite sweet shop thereafter.
After Rafi died, Nitin Mukesh told an interviewer that the rate at which Rafi was signing songs in 1980 would keep singers like him waiting for years. God only knows how many of those songs would have been composed by RD. Rafi’s death affected LP the most, but they somehow managed to adjust, while after Kishore’s death, RD was gone.
As for SJ, you can easily identify who among the two composed a tune by looking at the lyricist. Barring a few instances, if it is Shailendra it is Shankar, and if it is Hasrat it is Jaikishan. Both extraordinary talents, with the former more inclined toward Mukesh and Manna, and the latter toward Rafi. As for the female singer, Lata was their one and only choice, till Sharda came to the scene and knocked the hyphen off the duo. When Rafi and Lata fought, contrary to the lies spread by the media (especially the Raju Bharatan kind) that Rafi was hurt more, SJ happily used Suman Kalyanpur with Rafi, SD used Asha with Rafi (though Gaata rahen might have gone to Rafi if they had patched up before), and even Naushad and Madan Mohan had to be content with Asha. The only music directors who did some balancing were LP and KA, who most probably would have given fewer duets to Mukesh and Mahendra Kapoor had the titan and the titaness nor quarrelled.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:32 am
Dear Mr.Messy ….( This is to Messy )
How Udit become far better singer than Sonu nigam..Udit has a unique mellow voice and stlye i commit…But sonu nigam is something different..technically perfect and can go to any pitch..his Voice is just take us to anywhere…Sonu can sing udit’s song easily…but is udit can sing any difficult song of sonu to that rhythm…? tell me honestly..the one like ‘Mere rang de’, like ‘Kismat se tum’, like ’sathiya’, ……
I like Udit very much..cant forget the his song like ‘pehla nasha’..some time KK sing beutifully than Udit…but as a perfect singer i will point out Sonu Nigam ……..
May 17th, 2007 at 9:36 am
Kishoreda is just way ahead than Rafi as a singer.That’s it.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:37 am
Kishoreda is the grtest singer of all times.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:39 am
Kishoreda’s largest fan club in orkut has 68,000 members while Rafi’s 10,000.This just shows what Kishoreda is.In fact,Kishoreda is the most popular singer,no other Indian singer has more fans than Kishoreda in orkut.People of every age,status prefer Kishoreda.In orkut,even Shaan,Sonu,Hariharan and Balasubramaniyam has more fans than Rafi.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:15 am
I mentioned Bhupinder for Aandhi earlier, a typo, it was Kishore-based, but Rafi could have been used along with Kishore in films such as Amar Prem, Khushboo, Mehbooba etc. This is not to say that KK did not do a good job, he did very well in the songs from these films.
Whenever RD composed for Gulzar, there was something unique about it, however the only great song Rafi sang for this combo is “Jab Ek Kaza” from Devta. The other Rafi songs from Aandhi, Ghar etc. are just average IMO if you compare them to the KK songs from the same films.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:35 am
Hey guyzz..Dont Compare Rafi with Kishore…Hey How cruel to do so..
Rafi is the greatest of all….
i stick to comment of ‘irony81′ did on may 12th…its just like comparing sachin to afridi…
Rafi came from a very poor family in Punjab…every one knows how he raised up…
Y kishore can’t train the music..does not he has money to give dakshina to his guru..so funny…..
Dear Bengali Bors and sisters Kishoreda is from ur place everyone love the fame from theirown place but dont keep hide the truth..the same happened to Saurav’s case…
If So I Must stick and Compare Legend YesuDAS to Rafi Saheb…as am from kerala….The number of National awards he recieved is itself pove that …But He itself said and says about Rafi that ” Rafi saab was my guru in the heart. his songs guided me to the path of music..”
Any hard song he make easier…that’s the talent..
Every year the small,hindi less used state like kerala conduct Rafis memmorial programs,concerts ..at every districts even…pple will shock,that much Rafi is to southindians…so no need to ask about northies.
This is my experience when i went to Russia ,I asked a Guy there who all u knw in india, he said ” I know Amit ( meant Bachan),I know Khan (He meant Sharukh), I know Mohammed Rafi ”
that’s what he is ….
Am TRAINED IN karnatic and hindustani …i knw abt something abt music…So Rafi is Rafi ….No one can near to him..sometimes Sonu nigam is better than Kishore Kumar …
May 17th, 2007 at 10:36 am
I am fully with Mr Halder when he says that some some of the
songs Kishore sung could have been different - become classics
like Hum Bekhudi me tumko… if RAFI HAD sung it. What about a
RAFI version of Chingari koi badhke - for a variety and a
comparative purpose..
KK is a great singer but he had great limitations. R.D.Burman another
great talent under utilised Mohd Rafi for some reasons - and paid
a price for it.
LAXMIKANT PYARELAL USED KISHORE KUMAR VERY DEFTLY
THUS SUCCESSFULLY IN MANY SONGS.
The point I wish to state is that music lovers lost good songs from
the R.D-RAFI stable.. in the seventies…
binu nair…
May 17th, 2007 at 10:55 am
Mr. Halder saab:
I like your lines. YOU HAVE COME OUT WITH SOME CLASSIC
COMMENTS in the above articles. Please keep it up…. and if
possible please contact me on :
binus2000@hotmail.com
May 17th, 2007 at 11:47 am
To me, the RD-Kishore association was a win-win. Because Rafi was so consistent and almost “boringly” perfect with all the music directors, that the only way RDB could create a differentiator with other music directors of that time was through a new voice. Kishore offered that perfectly. What hurt Rafi however was that RD did not use him even for classical numbers during the period, most of them going to either Manna or Bhupinder.
Continuing on P. Haldar’s reasonling of Kishore’s success from simplicity, I sincerely doubt if Hamen tumse pyar kitna would have been as big a hit had Rafi sung it. First of all, had rafi sung it, RD would have retained the strains of the female version in the male version as well (he was forced to simplify the male version at Kishore’s failure to render the classical version), and Rafi would have matched Parveen Sultana in every note. Such a classical number might not have been as big a hit.
As far as RDB is concerned, he did produce a lot of hits with Rafi- Caravan , The Train, , Teesri Manzil, Yadon Ki Baraat, Abhilasha, Pyar Ka Mausam, HKKN, Shaan, Abdullah being the salient ones. But my favorite numbers are: Zamane ne marey (Baharon Ki Sapne) and Pyar Hai Ik Nishan Qadmon Ka (Mukti), the former being from the pre-Aradhana period and the latter from the post-HKKN period. The former one also had Rajesh Khanna in the main lead. It is a superb song, to that fact it is ironical that the RDB-Rajesh Khanna combo brought about the end to Rafi’s monopoly
in male playbck singing.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
to me it is RAFI KJ JESUDAS KISHORE KUMAR (1 2 3)
May 17th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Oops !!! I can’t help it man. Naresh Kumar Sharma ji, I loved what you said.
A perfect analysis and good article. But I can’t stop them from writing such bad
posts, even you have posted that message, they keep writing the same thing.
I feel sorry. You are right what you said. But they won’t understand, they will be
doing what they have been doing. See the analysis, aisa lagta hai
uchi makan phika pakwan. Log kya kya baatein kar rahe hain. Inka ye style thik nahi
tha. Kishore is better, Rafi is the best. ye gaana rafi se behtar kishore ne gaya.
aur to aur chhookar mere man ko, ye gaane mein kishore ka voice thik nahi tha
matlab not in true voice. bade logon ke bade bade baatein.
jitni zyada analysis utni hee pakav analysis. Log aadat se majboor hai, nahi sudhrenge.
Thank you naresh kumar ji for such a nice comment.
May 17th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
Both Rafi and kk were great individually.
it is foolishness to compare different personalities , both are unparrereled. Right from beginning till year 2000 film industries ruled by financier and disttributors .Producer directors were puppet infront of financers and they are directed according to film distributors/financiars to sale theire forth coming.and to keep financer happy producer fix according to theire choice that who will be singer /even cast/md etc etc according to salebility of them. Before aradhana kk sang mostly for comedians ,jokers,and second leading hero .only dev /sd/rd/had given him chance in navketan that also Rafi as aregular , .thats why kk started his own production house to exploit himself.;and produced beautyful film like doo gagan ki chhao main etc.It was adark period of kk but whenever he got chance he pearformed well.
B’for aradhana in his own starrer or else like” pyarkiye jaa,jwelve thief,rangoli,teen deviyan,ek muthi aasman,bhoot bangla” etc etc.he did good.
ok ! After aaradhna Rajesh khanna become super star who was earlier signed by Navrang studio (andheri) being run by shakti samanta,pramod chakraborty,ramanand sagar,j.om prakash etc etc so every producer of navrang strted announcing theire forth coming with RK as rk was being paid by them since long and rk started recomending producer and director to signed kk as his singer.and that way kk came full fledgly in to market and it is good that we are getting chance to hear both legend.
rest on you to believe it or not but one thing is important dont waste time in wrong issue debate ,as per hindu philosophy wait and watch theire reincernation…. till then listen and valued them what they left for us.
May 17th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
Well done true music lovers especially the most knowledgeable Sudip,Manish,Haldar,Naresh Sharma,MYKand some others who has commented above very analytically.
The great composers Shanker Jaikishen, S.D.Burman,Naushad,O.P.Nayyar,Roshan,Ravi,Madan Mohan and Laxmikant Pyarelal who had dominated the fabulous 50s and the swinging 60s used only the great Rafi Sahab for majority of the songs. Mind u those days films had 10 songs easily and the two stalwarts Rafi sahab n Lataji dominated the proceedings. In my opinion this period was the BEST IN PRODUCING EVERGREEN MELODIES BY THE ABOVE COMPOSERS WHERE RAFI SAHAB TOTALLY DOMINATED. Yes there was Mukeshji who confined to RK films and Kalyanji Anandji music, Manna da was good in classical character and few comedian filmed songs. Kishore da playbacked for Dev Anand and himself in the few films he had sung.
Many of us are not aware that Shanker Jaikishen used Rafi Sahab for almost 364 films and LP for 373 films. Infact another surprise for me was that pre Aradhna SDB used Rafi Sahab for 90 films out of 120 films. Please elucidate these facts for me Sudip, Manish,Haldar.Myk and Naresh.
Amongst Naushad, Madan Mohan, OPN it was also Rafi all the way. Now we know Roshan and Ravi the melodious composers picked up their best bet Rafi over Mukesh n Mahendra in that order ( As BR Chopra was close to Mahendra).
Once again Rafi sahab came with a big bang in the 77-80 period thanks to Rafi Bakths like LP,Madan Mohan ( who stood by Rafi in Laila Majnu in 75).
Yes the two good friends Rafi Sahab and Kishore da dominated this period but the melody or the songs of earlier magic was lacking as the music dynamics changed. The tastes of listeners changed drastically. This is my opinion and the two legends did their best to ring the charts under LP who dominated the proceedings followed by Rajesh Roshan,RDB,Bappi Lahiri and KA in that order.
The blind fans Debojit and Bapan are ignorant of the facts and they repeat parrot like in the above blog. Also Kumar Sanu who is a clone had played Rafi Sahab song Tum Mujhe bula na paoge in the Jaimala program in radio in 1985. Abhijeet another clone always revered his favorite legends but also worships Rafi Sahab and had sung Shammi Kapoor songs in T series. Shaan loves Kishore da and Rafi Sahab equally. Simillarly budding singers like KK,Babul always learned from the two legends.
Dear Messi, Udit Narayan had paid tribute to Rafi Sahab in Screen last year the copy which I have where he mentions that he belongs to Mohd Rafi School of Music.
No wonder that todays most successful singers Udit and Sonu owe their success to the humble giant Rafi Sahab.
The outlook survey where Rafi sahab songs were judged the best had Kumar Sanu,Abhijit along with Shankar Ehsan Loy, Javed,Khayyam,Mann da,Annu Malik etc….
Do I Have to say anymore ?
Narayanan
May 17th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Excellent article but the debate is healthy restricted to few like Haldar,Sudip,Manish,Naresh,MYK,Praksh,Shaan,Messi,Narayanan.
IN MY OPINION IF U TAKE THE ENTIRE BOLLYWOOD PLAYBACK SINGING FIELD ONLY 2 GAINTS EMERGE LATA AND RAFI FOLLOWED BY KISHORE,MUKESH AND ASHA. AS RIGHTLY POINTED BY HARIHARAN THAT 5 GREATS DOMINATED HINDI FILMS AND 5 GREATS DOMINATED SOUTH FILMS TMS,YESUDAS,SPB,SUSHEELA AND JANAKI.
DEAR DEBOJYOTI,
HOW CAN U TAKE ORKUT STATISITCS WHICH IS USED BY ELITE ?. U CAN COMPARE THE FEW AGAINST 100 CRORE POPULATION.
I HAVE ALSO INTERACTED WITH MANY THOSE FROM THE OLD AND YOUNG WHO LOVES GOOD MUSIC THE ABOVE IS TRUE. FACTS WILL BE BITTER BUT THEY ARE RIGHT.
AGAIN IAM NOT DEBATING OR BELITTLING UR FAVOURITE.
Regards,
Usha
May 17th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
Thanks everyone, especially the Kishore fans, for letting us share our thoughts freely on this website. Messi, don’t be upset when people compare the two; that’s bound to happen when you are considering the two greatest “playback” singers of all time. Do you know of any other pair in the music industry (e.g., Lata-Asha, RD-LP, Sahir-Majrooh) who is compared this often and that with so much passion? It just adds that extra glitter to tha aura of these two legends.
Here’s a parting thought. Dear Kishore fans, please listen to the 1958 duet Rafi sang with Asha in Kala Pani: Aachha ji main haar gaya maan jao na. Nothing extraordinary about the song, but take note of Rafi’s nuances for Dev in that song. Fast forward to Teen Deviyan (1965) and listen to Kishore’s Aare yaar meri tum bhi ho gazab; you’ll see how Kishore very intelligently adapted (not copied) Rafi’s style in that song and in many other Dev songs.
Rafi was a singer’s singer, someone whom Kishore, Manna, Talat and Mukesh adored; Yesudas, S. P. Balasubramaniam, and Udit Narayan idolized; and Mahendra Kapoor, Anwar, Shabbir Kumar, Mohd Aziz and Sonu Nigam emulated. So what if kids at Orkut and other websites don’t listen to Rafi? Rest assured that all their gurus used to listen to Rafi before going to sleep, so that they could go up a notch higher in the art of playback singing.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
P. Haldar,
Thanks for your comments. Jaikishan was Rafi inclined but I am pretty sure Shankar loved Rafi as much. In an interview I had read from Shankar, the questioner asked why after the success Manna had with SJ was he slowly eased out of SJ’s recording room in favour of Rafi. Shankar responded by saying that it wasn’t anything to do with easing out Manna, it was just that Rafi was miles ahead of him as a singer. On the other hand, Jai also composed for Mukesh as well, SJ made use of a variety of singers but Rafi was their ace.
Coming to RDB, as you said, he most probably wanted to be different, so he didn’t use Rafi saab as much. By 1980, Rafi was indeed singing a lot and had hits everywhere, and you are right, we might never know the amount of songs RD would have composed for Rafi in the 80’s. At that time, RD started taking Rafi more for not only films in general but big-budget movies as well.
Please keep on writing, your comments are very interesting and nice
What are your other views on RD vis a vis Rafi ?. RDB’s decline started around the early 80’s, could Rafi have saved him from that had he been there ?.
Sudip,
I had read one of your comments in another forum that “Zamane Ne Mare” and “Pyar Hai Ik Nishan” would feature in the Top 5 f RD, I agree with you, these two songs are both masterpieces from the RD-Rafi combo, they produced a lot of hits together.
Another favourite of mine is “Aye Jaan-e-Wafa” from Chhalia, fantastic use of the guitar by Pancham, and Rafi’s singing is excellent.
Please keep on writing as well, your views are also nice.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:02 pm
Dear Prakash,
U are r i g h t.
Actually RAFI saab took a big holiday from the industry when
he went for HAJ. During this period someone told rafi that
singing in films is haram not religious and the innocent rafi
believed it and went off to London to live with his sons.
There rafi sons due to the pressures to sing sent RAFI saab
back.
By this time due to the vacuum created by rafi absence - Kishore
Kumar came on back and this lasted for few years. Then Rafi saab
came with a bang with Laila Majnu.
R.D. BURMAN - would not have faded if he had balanced RAFI
and Kishore like what S.D.BURMAN had done earlier to the two
great talents.
The arrival of Kishore Kumar meant more variety and we are richer
musically - due to the great competition from two very talented
s i n g e r s of our times….
Lets enjoy the numbers of singers from 40s onwards. THEIR VOICES
WERE GOLDEN AND ALL OF THEM LEFT A GREAT LEGACY FOR US..
Lets enjoy these and desist from COMPARING OUR LEGENDS…
BINU NAIR..
binus2000@hotmail.com
May 17th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
Dear Hussein Sheikh,
You said Anil Biswas, C.Ramachandra, Salil Chowdhuri never reached the
top and came down very fast that too because they prefered otehr not
rafi ? come on, are you religiously blind ? They were legends by their
own rights. There were other great singer at that time, they were happy
with them so never tried with rafi. Don’t know about Anil Biswas and Rama
but Salil had so many excellent tunes with Rafi. Remember Madhumati ?
A lot more are there. Stop writing kiddish or biased statements.
There are only 3 MDs who got the highest award from Sangeet Natak
Academy and they are.
1. Salil Chowdhuri, 2. Naushad, 3. S.D. Burman
Mind you, Salil is there in the list and your comment is like he is not great.
Shan Nawaz,
Good to read your post. You think Sonu can sing in any pitch ? good joke.
Tell me any difficult song he sang ? yes he is technically more talented
than Udit, but he doesn’t have voice and melody.
He lacks the melody when he sings in high pitch, and this is his biggest
flaw. When he tries to sing in high pitch it seems it’s getting tough for
him and the melody is no more. Do you feel such in Udit’s voice ? no
not at all. All though Udit is not versatile or he is very monotonous but
he is anyday better than Sonu. Another major disadvantage is ask Sonu
to sing a sad song, you can feel what I am trying to say.
Udit can sing in any pitch, and with ease. I don’t see that perfection
and impact in sonu’s voice but both are talented but Sonu’s voice is
no match to Udit’s. Only thing I like about Sonu is he can sing Rafi
songs. Can copy Rafi with some percentage.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Debjyoti:
What is this ORKUT BUSINESS ?..
Rafi saab lives in the hearts of millions of music lovers not in ORKUT.
MORE, PLS MODERATE YOUR VOCABULARY as other writers can
write better dirty words, I am sure. But they would not stoop down
as they are educated and enlightened M U S I C lovers.
binu nair
May 17th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Kishoreda is the greatest of all times.Check different people paying tribute to the genius.
http://www.yoodleeyoo.com/specials/19th_death_anniv.html
May 18th, 2007 at 12:09 am
Dear Debjyoti
Kishoreda’s largest fan club in orkut has 68,000!!!!!!!!!!!! members while Rafi’s 10,000.!!!!!!!!This just shows what Kishoreda is.In fact,Kishoreda is the most popular singer,no other Indian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!singer,are u sure?!!Do u know who is KK?!! only 68,000,Plz tell me when good music stared and when finished,as we know born in 1950’s was young in 1960’s was old in 1970’s and end in 1980 would u say why?Can u give RD best film?
u r!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????????
May 18th, 2007 at 12:22 am
I live in Africa and people (negros) here love and admire Rafi Saheb’s songs.
May 18th, 2007 at 12:33 am
This is Kishore Kumar’s site, but to my surprise, 90% praise Rafi Saheb in KK site!!! Rafi Saheb was far-far ahead of all singers including Lata Mangeshkar.
May 18th, 2007 at 12:41 am
Dear Messi, Salil Chowdhary made good songs I agree, but I said he was never on top like SJ, LP, KA and others…….. Rafi Saheb sang for him in Madhumati, Maya, etc….
May 18th, 2007 at 12:54 am
RDB had a hand in kk’s success, along with SDB..sdb used to give kishore a lot of his renditions during the early 50’s..butnot quite frequently during the late 50’s and ealry 60’s..after that he used kk more often!..
rafi was the prime singer and singer in demand in fact to be called the best in the buisness during the 60’s..but after aradhana it was kisorw who rose to the top..and in the 70’s..he was used more by most mds!..even lp,mm etc etc who were loyal to rafi during the 60’s..turned towars kk due to the latter’s growing popularity…lp told that n an inetrview that they were forced to use kk during the70’s more as kk was the singerin demand then..and ppl wanted his songs..Ka also used kk moreoften during the 70s..and every one knows abt the rdb-kk combo which took the music industry by storm after aradhana..!..
May 18th, 2007 at 2:24 am
most keralites like rafi songs than kksongs.most of us donot undstant hindi.but weapreciate hindi songs .whenever one speak abot kk he tends to compare him with rafi.when one speak about rafi he speak only about his magical voice and his special style of singing.in kerala there is a saying kks sound is coarse like the sound produced when a coconut shell is rubbed on a rock.this may be becose of the presence of kjdas and his sweet sound inkerala people so feel.i think kjdas better than kk
May 18th, 2007 at 9:08 am
Yes unknown,I am sure.You can check it in orkut.Kishoreda is infinity times better and more popular than any other singer,including Rafi.
May 18th, 2007 at 9:10 am
Ask any common people and experts,99% will say that Kishoreda is the best.
May 18th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
KK and Rafi are two different personalities all together. They both are legends.
KK intially was not very successfull as a singer in the 50s because the norm at that time adopted by most Music Composers for singers at the time was perfect Urdu pronounciation, range of operation on high musical notes, variation in voice. This was the era when Rafi and Manna Dey where holding the center stage in singing. The result which KK entered in different areas like acting, Comedy, music composition, writing apart from singing. It brought him in comparison every where, thought he can never be considered bad or sub standard in any one them.
Plus another factor was the most singers were trained by some Pandit / Ustad. For example Mukesh got training under Pt Jaganath Prasad. This helped him in building good reputaion with music composers Anil Biswas & Salil Chaudhuri. This is were KK was a bit unfortunate.
As an actor his co stars where always best Actresses like Madhu Bala, Nutan, Vijyantimala, Meena Kumari, etc. But since there were Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand & Raj Kapoor most of his works were over shadow.
Similarly as a Comedian there were Johnny Walker, Mehmood, Om Prakash, etc who were specialists in their area. Keshto Mukherjee just did one silly act through out his career, but he is remembered for that till date.
Same as music composer his compostions were brillant certainly superior that many C grade music composers of that time. He himself was not classically trained, but he certainly had a fair good knowledge of Raags. His composition “Koi Hamdam na Raha” is based on Raag Jhinjhoti.
Because of these comparisions KK faced stiff competition everywhere, the result of which he was not able to charish mass appeal in any area as such. Most artists whether singers, MD, actors, comedians, etc they concentrated in one area knowing their limitations and putting extra efforts on there strong factors. 50s and 60s for the era of perfection & accuracy where only the best was perferred. This was not the case with KK in 50s and 60s.
In late 60s and 70s KK concertrated only on singing, so one can see the results. Since KK charied mass appeal a singer in 70s his all previous achievements as an actor, comedian, film maker, director, music composer, song writer, etc. are looked upon as great quantities of a singer by history. That is what makes him a legend.
A lot of credit goes to Dada Burman in shaping KK as per his body language knowing his limitations. Later it was carried forward by son Pancham. Dada Burman was responsibile for songs for couples involving leg pulling. In majority duets sung by KK and the female counter part, KK always steals the show. In order words Dada new the right musical notes to exploit KK of screen.
A lot as been written on Rafi so no point in going in too much detail.
May 18th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
In Kerala during my visits I found the following facts.
a. K.J. YESUDAS IS THE NO one SINGER in Malayalam.
b. Mohd Rafi - in hindi leads by over 90% for his class singing.
there are Rafi pictures in most music lovers houses.
c. KK has sung a malayalam number but he has very few
followers.
binu nair
May 18th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Mr Bapan: U use words like mad and donkey with whom you
do not agree. Each one has his right to opinion.
And each one know how to use better dirty words for persons such
as you but due to ethics and decency - they the music lovers of
class - wont use these.
By the way which school did you go if at all and do you buy
front row tickets for watching a movie since people with such
vocabulary are found there..
binu…. mumbai….
May 18th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
Jayanta, I thought I’d leave this debate and do other things till I saw your post on “even mm using kk more” and thought I’d like you to point out a few facts. I know you are an aRDent fan and I read your loRD’s blog site from time to time out of curiosity. Let me tell you one thing: among all the sites I have seen, yours is the site that distorts facts the most. The basic premise of your discussion is how everyone from SD to MM to LP copied your loRD’s tunes. Why do you do this? What purpose does it serve? I don’t have any problems if you think RD and Kishore are the best; you are entitled to your own opinions. But why say MM used Rafi more? Which song are you talking about: Ek Muthi Aasman?
The idiom that MM composed in is ghazal (gojol, as Bengalis would say) and he was the king. Forget Rafi and Lata, listen to his composition for Talat in Jahanara: Phir Wohi Sham Wohi Gam. This was in 1964 and Rafi was at his peak, but MM gave the song to Talat. When you get tired of listening to your loRD’s catchy songs, listen to this Talat gem and you will realize that RD, however talented he was, could never compose a ghazal like MM; the best he can offer is Hume tumse pyar kitna. And stop broadcasting to the world that your loRD composed Tumjo mil gaye ho; just because a few arrangers from RD’s stable played the music in that song does not mean it was composed by him. The problem with your loRD was that though he came in close proximity with Rafi at a young age (having ghost composed Sar jo zara takraya and having played the tabla in Hum bekhudi mein tumko pukare), he never appreciated the dimensions Rafi could have added to his oeuvre.
For Madan Mohan, the No. 1 male singer was Rafi. He, unlike LP, never buckled under pressure during the 70s. I’d go so far as to say that most of the gems that Rafi delivered in the post-Gambler era were composed by Madan Mohan. And guys like you keep distorting facts. I am listing just a few songs from the MM-Rafi combination below; listen to them and you’ll realize that your favourite composer-singer duo could never even come close to creating these (and I mean this kind of songs).
1. Meri awaaz suno, pyar ka raaz suno
2. Tumhari zulf ke saayen mein sham kar lunga
3. Tujhe kya sunayoon main dilruba (adapted from Talat’s Yeh hawa yeh raat yeh chandni)
4. Main ye soch kar
5. Kar chale hum fiza
6. Ek hassen sham ko dil mera kho gaya
7. Tum jo mil gaye ho
You could also try Jaidev’s Kabhi khud pe kabhi halat pe, Khayyam’s Jaane kya dhoondti rahati hai aankhe or Ravi’s Chaudvin ka chand ho. Then you will realize why even those who specialize in that genre, such as Jagjit Singh and Pankaj Udhas, let alone RD-Kishore, fall behind.
The old man respected Khayyam and Madan Mohan, and that is why you see such beauties as Hum bekhudi mein tumke pukare (Jaidev helped him on this one), Kahin bekhayal hokar and Din dhal jaye. The truth is that your loRD will never be able to measure up to his dad, and part of that reason is his disdain for ROFI. I know this is a bitter pill for you to swallow.
May 18th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
Undoubtedly Kishore Kumar is far ahead than Rafi.Zeenath,are you mad?Yesudas is like a dust in front of giant Kishoreda.
May 18th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/prodigy/299/
Look at this website,here it is clearly written that Kishore Kumar is the greatest singer of all times.
May 18th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
Eternal Dreams to scout for singing talent every year
Indiantelevision.com Team
(8 August 2002 5:00 pm)
MUMBAI: Eternal Dreams, a media company promoted by Sapna Chaturvedi, is seeking to honour bards.
And it is doing it in memory of India’s greatest singer ever, the eternal Kishore Kumar. The company, which has been slowly but surely working on turning around the Rathikant Basu promoted Tara Marathi and Bengali, has initiated the Kishore Kumar Award - which will honour two singing talents each year: one for established singers and the other for a new voice who can recreate the magic of the Maestro, Kishore Kumar.
Some permanent members of the jury who will judge the entries include: Amit Kumar, Kishan Kumar of T Series, Ratan Jain of Venus, Kumar S Taurani of Tips, Ekta Kapoor of Balaji Telefilms, Praveen Shah of Time and music directors Dabboo Malik and Himesh Reshammiya. Apart from these, there will be other members who will be decided each year prior to the selections.
Chaturvedi says Eternal Dreams will handle the winners’ careers for six months. “We hope to present the Indian music industry with some exceptional talents in the coming years,”she adds. The award was unveiled by film star Jeetendra at a musical extravaganza based on the songs of Kishoreda last weekend. Among the singers who turned up and crooned at no cost included Kumar Sanu, Vinod Rathod, Babul Supriyo, Shaan and Dabboo Malik. Making his debut on stage was Kishore Kumar’s youngest son Sumeet Kumar, who enthralled the audience with his promising performance.
Balaji Telefilms chairman Jeetendra Kappor (extreme left) and Eternal Dreams MD Sapna Chaturvedi (extreme right) at the musical extravaganza last weekend
The surprise discovery of the evening, however, was Pankaj Chaturvedi, a singer who wears two hats with the ease of a magician. Pankaj who evoked nostalgic memories of Kishoreda with the best of his memorable numbers is also the CEO of Baskin Robbins (South Asia), the largest international ice cream chain in India.
The show, a tribute to Kishore Kumar, is to be aired on DD Metro and has the backing of Tide detergent, Dabur and Win 94.6 with Regent Hotels being the hospitality partner.
READ THIS ARTICLE ,HERE IT IS CLEARLY WRITTEN THAT KISHORE KUMAR IS THE GREATEST SINGER OF ALL TIMES.
May 18th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
http://www.indiantelevision.com/headlines/y2k2/aug/aug42.htm
HERE IS THE LINK OF THE ABOVE ARTICLE,YOU CAN CHECK.
May 18th, 2007 at 9:10 pm
Kishoreda is the all time greatest singer and genius,comic hero of India.
May 18th, 2007 at 9:24 pm
Correction (2nd last sentence, first paragraph of my previous email):
I meant:
But why say MM used Kishore more?
May 18th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
well kishoreda is the best singer beyond the shadow of any doubt!!!!!!
May 18th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
I dont need to list down songs list to increase by post lenght sir, because everyone knows that kk had given a huge no. ofhits compared to very few of rafi’s during the 70’s, where the former completely outsmashed the latter.
You got me wrong…i m not distorting fatcs..its u who is trying to do so..and also biasing others..i implied mm used kk moe often than he did during the 60’s, (remeber mm has given some great gems for kk to render them during the 50’s..if u want them i may list down), but i m notcomparing the same percentage of songs or hits which kk produced out of mm as compared to rafi…itsthe nature of the songs and how beautifully kk sang the no.s is to be kept in mind!…and even rafihad a competition earleir as he had to fight out with mana and talat during the early periods to cement his position!.rafi is a brilliant singer no doubt about that..but somehow manna dey is far ahead of him if classical singing is concerned!
and for your info, Rd-kk will never fall behind no matter what hits of rafi u mention and under which md…its more or less a super combo which rocked the HFM during the 70’s and after that…the pair produced some real magical nos which no one except rd could have composed..and which no one other than kk could have sung!.
u go all facts wrong..and u r trying to do coctail sd with rd’s method of singing arangement!…sd used to bring folk song tunes most times into his songs which were great..and rd westernised the environment which was pretty successfull!…and for your info…sdb has used kk the most arnd 120 songs as compared to rafi-sd ’s 90 odd!..and most of them came from dev anand movies..!..and abt rafi..i fel he is a bit underated thats all..
MM more or less alone was loyal to rafi right throughout..yet he had to give kk some of his best compositions…like that in parwana ’simti si sharmayi si’…the film also had a rafi-kk duet..and yet like most rafi–kk duets..its kk who excelled over rafi!
dont get biased…do u mean to say that rafi-mm combo was superior than rkk-sdb or kk-rd???…no chance…the latest two combo wins anyday man!!
May 18th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
JUST LISTEN TO TUM BIN JAAON KAHAN KE DUNIYA ME AAKE…..
ANY QUESTIONS??
May 18th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
Rightly said Mr. Halder .
S.D. BURMAN THE old patriarch was a gem of a composer. His
son ruined music to a great extent AFTER SHOWING GREAT
P R O M I S E.
His films failed by the dozen and he hit the bottle and also
lost big banner films.
What RDB was trying to prove? A GREAT TALENT WASTED…..
Why was he against ROFI who was less than 50 years when
RDB came galloping. How many MUSIC LOVERS RDB
ALIENATE - by not taking RAFI VOCALS.
Did success go into his head or were his limitations exposed by
the great compositions of Laxmikant Pyarelal and Kalyanji
Anandji team….
Were music lovers tired of the repetitive stuff doled out by
Kishore - Asha duo , RDB S main singers?
Did the MANGESHKARS PUSH RAFI SAAB TO THE WALL as
inside reports say due to RAFIS diferences with Lata over the
royalty issues…
R.D.B DID BRING BACK RAFI DUE TO MARKET REASONS IN
THE LATE SEVENTIES….. WITH great results.
So the question is : How many lovely numbers music lovers
lost from the great RDB-RAFI stable in the early seventies
binu binus2000@hotmail.com
May 18th, 2007 at 11:15 pm
Also, the theory that KK decided to “voluntarily” choose acting instead of singing is hilarious. Kishore could not get a big break in the 50’s which is why he resorted to concentrate on acting. The only MD who stood by him at this time was SDB and if he did sing for others it was in his own films (eg. SJ films, Shararat, New Dehli etc.). In the late sixties he was about to go back home when RD told him to stay, as said by RD in one of his Jamaila interviews, and the rest is history. After that he showed that he was a great singer. This has nothing to do with him concentrating on singing after and concentrating on acting before, the theory holds no water, and is bogus to say the least. Kishore was a very talented singer, but to compare him to Rafi is not a fair comparision, Rafi can only be compared with himself.
P. Haldar, “Tum Jo Mil Gaye Ho” is a masterpiece, it is said that after the song Rafi complimented Kersi Lord on the arrangements he did for this composition, the guitar was played by Bhupinder, both the musicians were regulars in the RDB camp.
May 18th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
Very true Mr. P. Haldar, I agree cent percent with you.
May 18th, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Hello Debjyoti, ask any common people and experts, 99% will say you have no knowledge of music……….
May 19th, 2007 at 12:25 am
Respected Music Lovers,
I salute all of you. But it is the matter of great sorrow that when Rafi Sahib and Kishore Da is still singing together “Bane Chahe Dushman Zamana Hamara, Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara” then why we are wasting our time on this baseless debate. Both these singers were/are the greatest. However, Rafi sahib was the Senior to Kishore Da, it is the ground reality. Senior always remains senior. We should pay only homage or tributes to such artists and we should not bring forward our own egos on the behest of these great playback singers. We must make happy the souls of these departed pillar singers of the Bollywood. Please don’t be fool thyselves. Such type of discussion ‘ll not bear any fruits.
We should say Rafi Sahib Zindabad, Kishore Da Zindabad. That’s all.
–MEHTAB, Chandigarh (India) +919815703226, E-mail : mehtabmasih@yahoo.co.in
May 19th, 2007 at 12:48 am
Dear Debjyoti
if u ask people from KK family they will never say 99% that KK is batter than Mohd Rafi,I think u r mixing between mohd Rafi and KK!!!!! or u will nevrt that,if u as Amit Kummar he will never say that.
PLZ GIVE ONE BIG NAME WHO SAID THST HE BECAME FAMOUS BOZ OF KK,~
plz anwer as u been asked?
May 19th, 2007 at 12:55 am
there is no point in making comparison between rafi and kk.rafi is very much ahead with his superb songs. kk is an extended version of the likes of sailendra singh.but rafi was/is constant.if at all a comparisin is possible it should be between rafi and the great jesudas,who possess asweet and clear voice.he himself is the greatest rafi fan.when hearing some of his songs i am forced to think that even rafi could not sing like that.we can even identify the actor by listening to his song.a great real play back singer.his hindi songs are suprb.inthe midst of battle between rafi fans and kkfans everybody willfully ignores him only because he is not a hindi singer
May 19th, 2007 at 5:55 am
Adding to P. Halder’s list with my favorite Rafi-MM songs:
8. Main nigahen tere chehre se hatayoon kaise (Aap Ki parchhaiyan)
9. Kiski Yaad mein duniya ko hai bhulaye huye (Jahan Ara)
10. Baad Muddat ke yeh ghadi (Jahan Ara)
11. Barbad-E-Mohabbat Ki Dua (Laila Majnu)
12. Zameen se humen aasman tak (Adalat)
I also like the “Neela Akaash” songs, but they will be second rung.
I think the Haqeeqat quadret “Hoke Majboor Mujhe” is a glaring proof of why Rafi was way above others. Each of the other singers (Manna, Talat and Bhupinder) were great in their own right but the singer who stands out is Rafi.
May 19th, 2007 at 10:29 am
Jayanta:
You said: “dont get biased…do u mean to say that rafi-mm combo was superior than rkk-sdb or kk-rd???…no chance…the latest two combo wins anyday man!!”
–I will not compare rafi-mm versus kk-sdb. I will compare kk-sdb with rafi-sdb only. For every kk-sdb good song I will mention 2 rafi-sdb great numbers. It is a challenge.
–Secondly, why are we quoting bogus orkut or 99% junta numbers. There are similar bogus numbers in favour of Rafi too (http://www.tezaa.com/view/kishore_kumar_vs_mohammed_rafi_who_is_a_better_singer)
–Why are we debating?? The musical PUNDITS of Outlook India have already spelt out the verdict. Some of the judges included Kishore loyalists like Sanu, Abhijeet as well. In the same poll, 5 out of top 20 songs of all time were Rafi’s..And Rafi did not have to resort to publicity frills and gizmos like “eccentric genius” blah, blah to earn that…
May 19th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
have seen only a few of the above comments. Did not feel like going through the rest. NO COMMENTS as far as the Versus thing is concerned. Rafi is RAFI and Kishore is KISHORE. We enjoy songs by both these singers. Let us not compare.
May 19th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Jayanta, I’m not going to discuss the MM-Rafi combo here because that requires a special set of ears. I’ve maintained time and again that RD-KK was a special combination; they were made for one another. What I objected to was what you said about MM switching more and more to Kishore. The truth is that MM never switched. Just a couple of songs here and there for Kishore does not mean much. Rafi sang more than 100 songs for your loRD, but we can still ignore them. For Rafi, take out Naushad and SJ, you’ll have SD and OP. Take all these four out, you will still have Madan Mohan and LP. Take all these six out, you’ll have Roshan and KA. Now let’s focus only on SD; I know the media keeps talking about SD-Kishore all the time. They produced some wonderful tunes, no doubt about it. But are you sure that SD-KK was better than SD-Rafi? I’ll just list 10 compositions of SD for Rafi and I’ll let you judge for yourself.
1. Yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaye to kya hai (Pyasa)
2. Jinhe naaz hai Hind par o kahan hai (Pyasa)
3. Dekhi zamane ki yaari (Kagaz ke Phool)
4. Hum bekhudi mein tumko pukare chale gaye (Kala Pani)
5. Saathi na koi manzil (Bambai ka Babu)
6. Dil ka bhanwar kare pukar (Tere Ghar ke Samne)
7. Nache man more magan dhikna dhiki dhiki (Meri Surat Teri Aankhen)
8. Din dhal jaye (Guide)
9. Tere mere sapne (Guide)
10. Mera man tera pyasa (Gambler)
I can list 10 more but for the time being these should suffice. Why Kishore, has any singer sung such a variety of high-class songs for any composer? If you want ghazals, select nos. 4 and 8. If you want soft romantic songs, select 9 and 10. If you want an intoxicating feel with the voice melting into the sound of a flute, select 6. If you are in the mood for a classical song, select 7; the tabla accompaniment was by Pt. Santa Prasad and you’ll find out how Rafi’s voice deftly does jugalbandi with the tabla. If you are in a blue mood, listen to 4 and 5. If you want songs that no other singer dare tread, select 1, 2 or 3. And I haven’t even listed “Khoya khoya chand”, the song that gave Dev his debonair image. Also, I haven’t included the numerous duets Rafi sung with Lata, Geeta and Asha, an art that the old man specialized in. But I’d recommend one from MSTA: Tere bina sooni nayan hamare.
As regards classical songs, you are wrong about Manna being better than Rafi. In my ranking I would put Manna a close second, followed by Lata and Asha. Remember “Madhuban mein radhika nache re,” the most celebrated classical song from Hindi films? How about “Man tadpat hari darshan ko aaj”, the best exposition of Malkhauns to date? If you like SJ, try “Radhike tu ne bansri churayi”. This song for whatever reason didn’t get the fame it deserved; it’s a wonderful composition and see how easily Rafi glides through the difficult notes and still maintains his vocal quality. If you like OP, try “Anchal mein saja lena kaliya”; this song took even someone of the stature of Bade Ghulam Ali Khan by surprise. And if you ever heard Rafi at a concert singing “O duniya ke raakhwale” you’d have marvelled at how he used to deliver the “Mahal udas aur galiya sooni” part; I call this a song within a song, composed by Rafi himself to hit your heart with such a force that tears will come out in a second.
Rafi is the “ustadon ke ustad”. Sudhu sudhu torko kore ki laabh?
May 19th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
RDB Kk folp..cuumon u must be joking!…and rdb’s talent wasted!..sdb’s son wasted everythng?..are u living in this wolrd??..really???
a music director after performing and producing immense hits and going thorugh ahell lot of success is bound to get bogged down sometimes..no greta ppl can remain at the top all the time..sumtimes or the other they are ound to go through the linear patch!..wich rdb did during the 80’s..still folowed it with hitsloke heralal pannalal…sitamgar etc etc!
kk extended version of shailendra?..tell me how much do u know at shailendra!…u hv no idea at all!..kk rules forever…rafi was brillant during the 60’s…but y dont u answer the straight forward question y most of the mds prefferred kk to rafu dirung the 70’s,…and y kk got more success thanr afi durign the 70’s??….kk was more of an actor..than a singer during the 50’s..and 60’s..lot of hit films accompanied by some b-grade films were there…yet singing was his second liking..and everyone eventhe greats lata,.asha..manna,sdb..to big b ..everyone has admitted that..and the interviews of which i have!…so thats cleared!
myk..dont get biaed..b/w..y r u hiding ur name???…anyways..rafi cant reach the heights kk reached during the 70s’..and still now!..
how much do u know abt kk’s films and hits dueing the 70’s..tell me?…and u toldthat only sdb was instrumental in letting kk to sing his sogs and no one else…not at all!..even SC,Ramchandra..o.p.nayyar,sc used kk often but to a lesser extent than rafi!…that fact that no mds other than sdb preffered kkduring the 60s'’,is absoultely illogical..try to get ur facts clear!
y not rafi fans acept the fact tha rafi was at the top during the 60’s..but lost out to kishore during the 70s!
May 19th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
Respected Music Lovers, Namaskar!
I want to tell the so-called fans of Kishore Da that Kishore Da had displayed only one photograph in his bungalow. The photograph was none other than the Great Mohd. Rafi. Another fact that Mohd. Rafi sahib was used to address Kishore Da as a tiger. According to Rafi Sahib that Kishore Da had such natural God-given grains in his throat that couldn’t be imitated. So please, all the music lovers should keep normalcy in their minds. Please shut-off this debate. Your claims shall never reach anywhere. Be brave and be prudent also. Please accept my humble appeal.
–MEHTAB, Chandigarh (India) +919815703226, E-mail : mehtabmasih@yahoo.co.in
May 19th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
three points here.
1. I agree with you Mehtabh ji and we ought to SALUTE RAFI AND
KISHORE DA for their contributions.
2. Zeenath : Yesudas is the finest singer after Rafi saab. Have met
him couple of times. He failed in the diction part in most of the
songs except Chitchor and Rajnigandha where the composers
brought out the best in him. Pl. compare his diction with Rafi
who was the finest in the business. Yesudas considers Rafi
saab as his guru and the best -like 98% KERALITES.
3. THIS topic discussion got the best and maximum INPUTS.
Can we now STOP THIS BUSINESS OF COMPARISON between
two great singers. And , if at all can we all have a healthy
discussion and respect the singers of YORE…
May 19th, 2007 at 7:34 pm
Mohammed Rafi Saheb is the best singer, no one can be compared to this legend, KK was just ok.
May 19th, 2007 at 8:33 pm
Undoubtedly,Kishoreda is the greatest singer of all times,much much more popular than Rafi.LONG LIVE KISHORE KUMAR THE GREATEST GENIUS.
May 19th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Though Md. Rafi was a great singer, but when the question comes who is the best male playback singer, it is only Kishoreda who rules the first position. There are many great male singers such as Md. Rafi, Manna Dey, Mukesh & many more but in the field of playback Kishoreda is simply brilliant whose voice befits each & every individual & holds a much higher position than the rest. A voice which is still rocking in the minds of this generation, a voice which can be moulded to any type according to need of the song, a voice which carries all the emotions with it from the depth of the heart & touches the same……….It is one & only Kishoreda’s voice which stands much ahead of the others. He is simply the best out of the best.
May 19th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Only a couple of people say KK is popular, but 90% praise Rafi Saheb only on this KK site! Very strange but true!!
May 20th, 2007 at 12:45 am
Jayanta,
Please do not distort facts, I have read your posts, many of the facts are totally opposite of the truth. Let’s take your points one by one:
You mention KK’s second liking in the 50’s and 60’s was to sing. Can you tell me why Kishore came to Mumbai in the first place ?. He came to be a singer, he wanted to sing, that was his passion, he is admitted that many a times in his interviews. He only got into acting because he could not receive a break in singing, no MD besides SDB was willing to give him a chance. He did not come to Mumbai to become an actor, if he wanted to become an actor he probably would have stayed in Khandwa.
If you read what I stated earlier, I had mentioned that if MD’s like OPN and SJ etc. took him, is due to his own films, not for any other actor. The only actor he playbacked for outside of himself at that time was Dev Anand. This is majority of the times, he may have sung for RK or others earlier on but most of the time it was Dev and under SDB. He did not voluntarily choose to act, nor did he take himself out of the race, he was forced to, and even if he was in the race, he would not stand a chance to Rafi at that time. You mention how MD’s like Salil used him, again please check if Kishore is acting in the film himself and you will come to your answer. Early on in the 50’s composers like Roshan and CR may have taken him, but for very few songs, he was hardly considered a top notch singer in the 50’s and 60’s.
By the way, if you knew about Kishore’s films, you would not be asking me how much I know. A good number of KK’s films did not do well even though he may have acted with top grade heroines in some of his films, most were B-grade ventures.
The problem with some people is that instead of acknowledging the truth, they mix Kishore’s acting with him not getting a break to sing. The argument put forward is because KK could not compete with Rafi or Mukesh etc. in the 50’s and 60’s is because he chose to act. Now why would he choose to act if he came to Mumbai to become a singer ?. Please do answer that question. Also, why did Kishore want to go back to his home town in the late 60’s ?. The reason is because he was not getting a chance to sing in films the way he wanted to. Please do not distort facts, nor make up excuses such as KK was busy with acting etc. Yes he was busy, because he wasn’t getting a break to sing and its purely logical and not illogical as you pointed out. The more you try to defend Kishore in the 50’s and 60’s, the more off track it gets.
Coming to your point about majority of MD’s using KK in the 70’s. Let’s pinpoint it one by one. LP mostly used Rafi and yet still used Kishore, KA made a balance, Rajesh Roshan maintained a balance, for Usha Khanna, Madan Mohan and Ravi it was Rafi more than KK, for newcomers such as Mandhir Jatin, Manas Mukherjee, Anu Malik, they all went to Rafi before they eventually moved on to Kishore because Rafi passed away. The only MD’s tht favoured KK were the Burmans and Bappi Lahiri, and that is understandable. Ravindra Jain you could say maintained a balance although Rafi and Yesudas were his favourites. So now tell me who are the majority of MD’s that used KK in the 70’s ?.
Mind you, Kishore was the most successful for about four years in the 70’s, other than that you could say it was even between Rafi and KK, with Rafi having more success in the latter part of the decade, especially 79 and 80. Check out the Binaca Geetmala Records, from 79-81 it was totally Rafi everywhere, no sight of any other singer on the radio, the comeback was complete and in full gear until Khuda took him away from us.
The real impact of Kishore getting far away from every singer including Rafi in the brief period was because Rafi did not sing for 8 months in 1971. Ofcourse Kishore’s time had come, and this does not take away from his talent as a singer, but it was not Aradhana that did the trick, it was the absence or leave which was the main reason.
Mr. Haldar,
What are your views on Rafi in the 70’s ?. I think he had many great songs during this period. It is the media that creates myths that he was not up to the mark, leaving aside the 77-80 period how about 70-76, he had many great songs in this time.
Ironically, many of RD’s best songs during the 70’s are by Rafi, Churaliya Hai Tumne, Kya Hua Tera Vaada, Maine Poocha Chand Se, Gulaabi Aankhen and the list can go on.
May 20th, 2007 at 4:20 am
Hi myk, I really appreciate your knowledge of musicians. I’ve seen both Kersi Lord and Bhupi on stage. I’ve also seen Manohari Singh (of Basu-Manohari fame), probably the best sax player of all time. The sax sounds you hear in the Guide songs are all from that man. It’s reported that Salil brought him from Kolkata and then he became a regular in the SD camp (I think he played the flute in Salil’s classic “O sajna barkha bahar aayee”). Always used to accompany RD along with Kersi for concerts. Manohari also played for OP in quite a few songs, the most memorable being Rafi’s “Hai duniya usiki zamana usika” from Kashmir ki Kali. But I am curious to find out who played the flute in Rafi’s “Dil ka bhanwar kare pukar”; sounds like Manohari but can’t be fully sure. Our Chhote Nawab played the mouth organ for the Dosti songs, and Kolkata’s Milan Gupta played it for the background score.
May 20th, 2007 at 9:23 am
For a person who grew up listening vividh bharti for hours daily(due to dad’s profession as a voice artiste) i had listened to all rafi sahab,mukesh and kishoreda at a very early age. And till this day i have never wavered from my opinion tht Kishoreda was the best not only among his peers but also across all generations..
Such was the power of kishoreda’s singing tht at the age of 5 years i had memorized most of his songs,first one being “Roop tera mastana”..
Agreed he didnt get ne formal training and tht makes him even more special and beyond compare.
And if doubts still persist then ppl plz listen to “roop tera mastana”,”dil kya kare”,”o mere dil ke chain”,”wada tera wada”,”meri bheegi bheegi si” to name a few and u shall b enlightened .. !!
kishore da lives forever
May 20th, 2007 at 9:43 am
Rafi saab is the t a n s e n - of music.
And for centuries, music lovers will cherish his songs, character
and humility.
Such an individual can take birth only between many centuries.
My good fortune that I heard r a f i saab from close quarters on
two occassion.
My good fortune that I met the great Kishore da at abu dhabi,
the UAE capitol for 2 minutes - just before a fun rolled concert..
We are all blessed to have such great singers with us - who visited
this planet - and will never die…..
binu nair
binus2000@hotmail.com
May 20th, 2007 at 11:11 am
If someone who has not heard a single Rafi or Kishore song in life goes through the above comments, he/she will be able to figure out who the better singer is.
On one side (Rafi) are comments with analysis, logic and reference to classic numbers.
On the other side (KK) are comments with emotion completely devoid of any analysis and reference to crappy songs (”lare lappa songs” as they say in Bengali).
May 20th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
myk..u r again distorting facts altogetherand with no good effect!..kishore ruled for four yrs??..commom even the die hardest rafi fans wouldnt have givejn such biased opinion!..after aradhana it was kishore all the way!..no one surpassd him…2 rafi hits during that time was followed and buried by 10 hits of kk!…comprehensively!..dont say sumthing like rafi made a comeback..!not at all!..even the intervies depicting lata /asha /manna etce tc says kishore da ws the ebst..’unke jaisa singer aaj tak paida nahin hua’…then what great opinions do u need!…and u r wrong agaib..check out the facts.LP has given kk more of his compositions than rafi!..and most of then came during post aradhana!..MM used to use kk a lot during the 50s..and also post aradhana!..and as per sdb…his fav sinegr was also kishore all the way..although sdb chose rafi a lot during the 50!
rafi sab wud have taken a 1000 yrs to come near the calibre of manna dey! if classical singing is considered then manna dey is way way ahead of rafi!..
May 20th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
i frequently hear hindi songs.while iam travelling imostly prefer kk songs.it gives me joy and enjoiment.moreover his sound has a special power to conqer all other sounds emnating from the suroundings.at home i prefer rafi -gives me peace of mind -trianquility-happiness.
May 20th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
Hi myk, a very nice comment by you, I appreciate it. So nicely explained.
May 20th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
kk was more popular and famous than Mohd Rafi!!!!!!!!!!???if u r saying jokes plz don’t………If u r saying that KK was at top from 1970 to 1976 u r so wrong,when Late ji,Asha ji RD,SD most of MD they speak about KK jokes or he should be paid before to sing but when they speak about Mohd rafi we know what they say…….
If am popular it not mean that i am the best.
some one speak that kk singed these songs so will i agree with him but if we speak best 20 all time hit songs went to only Mohd rafi.
There was Madan Mohan he was been force to use KK but he said that he will work in the flim if Mohd rafi not sing in it.
There was OP N,SJ and SD who used Mohd Rafi voice on KK..if I am not wrong when they asked SJ why they used Mohd Raf on KK he answer that is not KK cup of tea….
Whey Mohd Rafi singed for Shammi Kapoor there was no other he need to sing for him but Rajesh Khanna he used Mohd Rafi and all songs singed by Mohd Rafi are hit.
May 20th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Rafi Saheb’s ‘Tum bin jaoon kahan…’ is a better version than of KK, Rafi Saheb’s version has sweetness, melody, sung so nicely for Shashi Kapoor.
May 20th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
Continuting on the remark made by myk, let me point out to Kishore fans not to make statements like “Rafi was swept aside in the 70s” or “Rafi was king only in the 50s and 60s, but after that, it was Kishore all the way”. As I’ve said time and again, each one of us is entitled to our opinions — there is always some subjectivity involved — but please do not distort the facts. At the time of Rafi’s death, 10 out of the 16 songs being played at Binaca Geetmala were his; please remember those days that progam was the main yardstick of popularity. The other thing to note is that RD, even in big-banner films like Shaan, were giving most of the songs to Rafi. Why do you think he was doing that? The reason is simple — it was just the market forces. In Zamane ko Dikhana Hai, Rafi got the main song “Puchho na yaar kya hua” and probably after that he died, otherwise I doubt Nasir Hussain would have asked Shailendra Singh to sing rest of the songs. LP was happy to make Rafi lip-synch for Amitabh in Naseeb and others were also doing the same.
Despite his growing popularity, I wouldn’t still say that Rafi had pulled ahead of Kishore in 1980. During the 1977-80 period, both were at the top; there was no clear winner. But knowing Rafi, who ruled like a monarch in the 50s and 60s, I think he would have slowly pulled ahead of Kishore in the 80s (this is just my opinion). Other than the fact that all the big banners wanted to sign him, there is another factor: LP was getting ahead of RD. Laxmi would start using his “pitri-saman” Rafi for entire scores and gradually RD would have been forced to follow suit. As I’ve said before, RD should have kept this weapon in his arsenal; he was a multi-dimensional talent but got restricted in his compositional orbit by his over-dependence on Kishore. Why not give some of his folksy compositions to his “Ni sultana re” Rafi? He was slowly coming around to that point of view but it is our misfortune that Rafi left us prematurely. Listen to Rafi’s “Poocho na yaar kya hua” in ZKDH and the way he starts (Chak chak chakah chakah cha).
I want to point out to the Burman fans one more thing: whenever Rafi got a fair chance to deliver under their batons in the 70s, he did. If you consider the senior Burman, Rafi produced hits in Talash, IPZN and Abhiman. Look at Abhiman; he had only one duet but that remains the most enduring one. For the younger Burman, consider YKB; one duet with Kishore and one duet with Asha. The latter became one of the greatest hits of all time. Fast forward to HKKN and you have Kishore and Rafi sharing the songs. Do I have to remind you guys who came out on top? No, actually there is no need because it doesn’t mean much. There were many instances in the 60s when Manna’s or Mukesh’s songs were greater hits than Rafi’s in the same film; Waqt is a prime example where Manna’s “Aae mere zohra zabeen” was by far the biggest hit. So even though Rafi’s songs in HKKN or AAA were much bigger hits than Kishore’s, I wouldn’t say that Kishore was “swept aside” (like Kishore’s fans do from time to time).
What all of us — both Kishore and Rafi fans — missed was a battle royale between the two greats in the 80s. Kishore had the advantage in that his heavier voice suited the reigning superstar more than Rafi’s. But Rafi had the momentum and that ever-dangerous Laxmi on his side.
Where I’d differ from myk is the contention that Rafi lost his No. 1 place in the early 70s because he took a break. I know RAFIans would like to believe that but as someone who has followed his career even before I hit my teens, let me tell you something: Rafi never took a break. That man was a workaholic. He didn’t go to Haj or a world tour for the first time in 1970. If I remember correctly by that time he had completed more than 20 world tours! Producers, directors and actors used to wait for Rafi to return home, such was his dominance. What hit him more than Aradhana was those twin blasts: Amar Prem and Kati Patang. Make no mistake about it — it was Chhote Nawab who was responsible for Rafi’s downward slide in the early 70s.
There is another interesting story I heard from someone who knows a lot about the film industry. I cannot vouch for its veracity but here’s how it goes. Raj Kapoor wanted a fresh voice for Rishi in Bobby but LP wanted Rafi to sing. Apparently, Shailendra Singh told an interviewer that LP would have given the songs to Rafi had he failed in the audition. And if that had happened, Rafi wouldn’t have had to wait for three more years to witness the reversal of fortunes. Imagine “Main shayar to nahin” in Rafi’s voice!
May 20th, 2007 at 9:53 pm
Dear Sir,
how they can say to Mohd Rafi to sing in Abhiman because if u look the story of the flim Lata ji was the winner and she singed better than KK(Bachchan),As said that flim Abhiman was one of mr bachchan best flims as a actor,who said that KK was at top from 1970 t0 1976?when Rishi Kapoor and flim said to Madan Mohan to use KK in flim Laila Majnu but Madan Mohan said no way plz put kk in these songs.
Why u KK fans d don’t answer what asked?why it said that music born in late 1940’s was baby in 1950’s was young in 1960’s was old in 1970’s and died in 1980’s?if u r honest u will see only Mohd Rafi it,
Dear KK fans please give one name if u take kk out from him u will not get anything from him?about Mohd Rafi said by them if there was no Mohd Rafi there was no O P Nayar,Naushand said Mohd Rafi was 50% in his Music,Shammi Kapoor said mohd Rafi was his voice…………………..
May 20th, 2007 at 9:53 pm
quote - # Hussein Sheikh Says:
May 19th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Only a couple of people say KK is popular, but 90% praise Rafi Saheb only on this KK site! Very strange but true!! - unquote
Couple of people - are couple of different people. 90% is one person posing as many.
Hussein bhai you should be amazed that a kk fan who created this site is actually approving all your messages. What do you say about that?
That he is a Rafi fan? If so he is a great man. There you go agreeing that a KK fan is great. 
May 20th, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Well analysed article.
But shri Shakti Samanta said to a music buff : Rafi went to
Haj or on a long holiday and Kishore Kumar reaped the harvest
in Rafi saabs absence….
Again, Rafi had already scaled the No. 1 position in 1980 by his
melodious vocals and due to L.P being on top and on his side.
binu nair binus2000@hotmail.com
May 20th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
Mohd Rafi was so much indispensible that composers used
Rafi s vocals for Kishore Kumar in Bhagam Bhag, a duet :
Humko yeh dhar hair; Man mora bhavra in RAAGINI :
COMPOSER: O.P. NAYYAR ; AND IN FILM shararat : AJAB HAI
DASTAN TERI : COMPOSER: SHANKAR JAIKISHAN.
Rafi has sung for three generations of actors : the Kapoors,
Prithviraj-Raj-Rishi Kapoor which is a world record.
Kishore Kumar is a great all rounder liked by many. But
when it comes to singing a n d melody there is only one master :
MOHD RAFI .
He is the BADSHAH, THE EMPEROR - FOR ANY TYPE OF SONGS,
from Bhagwan to yahoo , Chahe koi muje junglee kahe…..
And many many incomparable melodies.
binu nair binus2000@hotmailo.com
May 20th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
Dear Hussein Sheikh, unknown and other RAFians,
Please do not disrespect the memory of your idol by targeting Kishore. Rafi never said anything bad about anyone. The modest person that he was, he once said during his lean phase, “I’ve had a long reign; it’s someone else’s turn now”. Each of the greats — Manna, Mukesh, Kishore and Rafi — added new dimensions to the world of Hindi film music and we should all be happy about it. Let us thank Kishore’s fans and the administrator of this website to be their guests, and go back to our home site.
May 20th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
DEAR Mast Mast,
U people want to compare Sun light with Moon light If u ask a blind man he will know different between sun light and Moon light.thanks to mohd Rafi name only this top is over 133 msg,KK fans have no topic?I requet to Mohd Rafi fans plz don’t answer KK fans here,If u look to all topic in the site will see that only there few people they speak but when they tried to compare Mohd Rafi with KK,why we should answer them because KK fans have no answer for our Questions?
To Mohd Rafi fans and kk fans wilcome to mohdrafi.com?
Some said that why not SD used Mohd Rafi for only for one song in flim Abhiman but they don’t know the story of flim that KK lost fom Lata ji.
!!!!!!!!kk was a good singer who copied KK they think they are better than KK but when u see the singer who copied Mohd Rafi they know how is Mohd Rafi great they never said that they are better than Mohd Rafi,
This my last msg at KK site my answer will be at Mohd afi site to KK fans
May 20th, 2007 at 11:58 pm
P. Haldar,
Very great analysis, I always enjoy reading your write-ups and appreciate your great knowledge.
Coming to the story about Haj, I have heard this from several sources, although it may not be true now that I have heard it from you. I find it hard to believe that Rafi who produced many hits in 70-71 could only have one or two songs on the Top list of Binaca at that time compared to the rest of KK’s scores. Do you know the reason for this ?. What happened to his songs from Caravan, Mela, The Train, Aap Aaye Bahar Aaye etc. during that time. I read in an interview of Shakti Samantha that they wanted Rafi for Kati Patang but he was out of town so all the numbers went to Kishore and one to Mukesh. You mentioned that this score was also a factor in Kishore’s upswing in the early 70’s.
In regards to his comeback on the charts, in the years 77 (Pardah Hai Pardah), 78 (Aadmi Musafir), 80 (Dafli Wale) and 81 (Chal Mere Bhai), Rafi had the top song for those years. From 77-79 Kishore may have had more songs in general but it wasn’t by much, so in this sense BOTH shared the top slot. In 1980 and 81, Rafi matched Kishore in the number of songs but Rafi also passed away in the middle of 1980, as well as had more songs on the charts during certain periods, so it is clear that in terms of the number game, Rafi had gained his numero Uno slot back. Let me also bring back the point I mentioned earlier that I had interacted with listeners of the BGM at the time, that from 79-81 when Sargam released, it was Rafi everywhere, and indeed he was King, so in my view he re-gained his position of numero uno. His domination at that time is legendary now, only a man of his talent would have come back in such a way. The momentum was clearly on his side at the time, its sad that he passed away because the 80’s would have been a totally different story.
Coming to the films, from 76 starting with Laila Majnu, and 77-80 whenever Rafi dominated films, they did well. Adding to that, you mentioned the big budget films were mostly Rafi dominated, and Rafi passed away at the time so he could not complete ZKDH. Another interesting story, RDB had originally recorded Dukh Sukh Ki from Kudrat with Chandrashekar Gadgil. However the distributors asked why there was no Rafi song in the film, and I believe them along with Goldie Anand wanted and persuaded RD to record the same song in Rafi’s voice, and his version (not retained in the album, only in the film) was used as the crowd puller.
Rafi actually never left as you pointed out, he was very much there from 72-76, producing chartbusters, even with Junior Burman. His comeback is associated with his songs coming back more on to the charts but it does not mean he left or stopped singing as it may sound.
You mentioned another great point, Rafi getting the majority of the album. Even a composer such as Rajesh Roshan delivered two knockout albums, Aap Ke Deewane and Unees Bees with Rafi in 1980. I love RR’s albums in his early days, he is a very talented musician and made great use of both Rafi and KK. Rafi vibed with him very well. What are your views on him as well as his combination with Rafi ?.
LP became number one at the start of the decade, eventually displacing SJ, and they along with RD had a battle royale in the 70’s. Although both did great I feel in the late seventies LP broke away. RD’s best phase was in the early seventies IMO, that was when he was at his creative best and peak, a good number of his songs were for B-grade films which is sad considering the songs he produced for them. LP were always consistent throughout the decade, and in order to match RD at his game, they balanced both Rafi and KK. Once the late seventies came around it was back to Rafi more than KK and then Rafi was used to devestating effect by LP as you mentioned. After HKSKN (Rafi-based), RDB could never repeat the same success until 1942 ALS, and the 80’s was a tough time for him. Even though he still received big budget films in the late 70’s-80’s and produced great songs with both KK and Rafi. Rafi’s exit just made things worse, and I am sure if he was alive at the time it would have made a difference to RD. He did realise his blunder in not using Rafi more, and when he did, he couldn’t do it for that long due to Rafi’s passing away.
The Bobby story is interesting, I have also heard that somewhere, Bobby by Rafi would have been amazing. An interesting point, the tune for Hum Tum Ek Kamre was composed by Jaikishan, RK had all of SJ’s practice tunes on tape and was free to use them with other composers. It is ironic though that Rafi later on became Rishi Kapoor’s voice, the two matched eachother perfectly.
P. Haldar, when you contact Mr. Nair, please contact me as well, I have given Mr. Nair my email address, it would be great to be in touch with you.
Jayanta,
If you fail to acknowledge Rafi’s greatness in the 70’s then that is your wish, no one is forcing you to accept anything. Kishore’s dominating period was from 71-75, in which no male singer was as successful as him. You cannot compare that with the two decades that Rafi ruled previously. Add to this, Rafi also made a comeback on to the charts in supposedly Kishore’s era, which is in itself a great thing. Both Rafi and Mukesh won awards during this time, something no singer was hardly able to do in Rafi’s domination for two decades, so please judge for yourself.
In regards to LP using KK more than Rafi after Aradhana is again not the truth, I don’t know where you are getting your info from, but please do not distort facts. And MM using KK a lot in the 50’s beats me, his favourites were always Rafi and Talat, again wrong information. If he did use KK it was probably for KK’s own film. MM using KK more after Aradhana is again false, please do check your facts.
Coming to SDB, yes Kishore has 120 songs compared to Rafi’s 90 odd, however have you noticed how many songs came from Kishore’s own films ?. If you take out Kishore’s own films under SDB, the two totals will be pretty even between KK and Rafi vis a vis SDB.
The reason why both father and son SD and RD moved KK way in the 70’s was for a few reasons, one being KK’s popularity from Aradhana and the films after, both father and son felt that since KK had lost out in the 50’s and 60’s, here was a chance for him to get songs, and also RD’s chance at breaking away from his father as well as other composers, being different, aka not using Rafi, hence using Kishore. This does not have anything to do with KK’s singing talents being better than Rafi.
As far as classical singing is concerned, Manna Dey himself has said that even though he was more trained in classical songs, Rafi could sing classical songs better than him because he was a better singer. If Manna was the better singer, I am sure composers would have chosen him over Rafi. As far as singing is concerned, you cannot compare anyone to Rafi.
As for interviews, the majority of the times celebrities such as Lata, Manna Dey etc. have said Rafi is the greatest. Add to this the hundreds of musicians such as Yesudas, SPB, Jayachandran, many prominent HFM personalities, even the great Illayaraaja of the South, one of the best musicians India has ever seen as well as MSV have all vouched for Rafi as the greatest including the Outlook Poll by prominent celebrities. So there is no point in discussing one or two interviews mentioning KK when the majority is in favour of Rafi. As for Asha Bhosle she does not admit Rafi’s greatness even though she has sung her most duets with him, over 800, but it is understandable that she would mostly talk about Kishore, since RD was her husband.
May 21st, 2007 at 12:00 am
Btw, in my first paragraph I was referring to the Binaca List of 1971 vis a vis Rafi’s hits in those films.
May 21st, 2007 at 12:04 am
Also, Kishore’s dominating period was for pretty much four years either 71-75 or 72-76 however one wants to look at it.
May 21st, 2007 at 12:57 am
Any idea why RD used Rafi for Rajesh Khanna in “The Train”? Wasn’t it post-Aradhana?
May 21st, 2007 at 1:16 am
In this entire thread till now, I have held back my criticism about Kishore and RD, while displaying my preference for Rafi.
But here is something that I can’t pardon Kishore and RD for. To me, RD, Bappi and the likes with the aid of Kishore Kumar murdered Bengali songs for good. Bengali songs in the 1950s to mid-70’s represented the soft romanticism of the Bengali bhadralok played on screen by Uttam, Soumitra, Subhendu.. Songs used to be soft and strong on lyrics.. For the Bengalis out here, rewind to Uttam hits in Pothey Holo Deri, Sankhabela, Nayika Sangbad, Deya Neya, Antony Firingi, Stree or Chowringee…Or the Soumitra starred Sat pakey badha, Monihaar, Pratham Kadam Phool…The melodies were soft and mellowed, the focus was on lyrics and tune.. Voices of Manna, Hemanta, Shyamal, Satinath, Dhananjoy used to represent the dhoti-clad bengali bhadralok, depicting bengali romanticism and intellegentia..
Then came Kishore Kiumar, backed by RD and Bappi..This was the worst import that could have ever hit Bengal from Bombay.. Most of the Bollywood hits were “bengalicized” without any care for regional nuances or culture. So we saw Kishore humming “He he ha ha ha” in Bengali numbers, tunes completely contrarian to the soft bhadralok personality.
Things started going out of control in the 1980s. Towards the period of Kishore’s death we witnessed juvenile lyrics like “(H)E(Y) amar gurudakhina”, “Eparey thakbo ami” or “Tomar barir samney diyey amar moron yatra” delevered in the rough Kishore open-throated style. The real funeral procession (”moron yatra”) was that of Bengali songs.. It only hastened the arrival of Sanu, Abhijeet, Udit who polluted it beyond recovery..
Bengali songs will never be the same..
May 21st, 2007 at 1:53 am
As P. Haldar mentioned, I would like to Thank the members of this forum for allowing us to participate in heathy discussions about Rafi and Kishore.
Adding some more, it took Kishore 2-3 years after Aradhana to take the top spot by himself. If you look at the Rafi-KK stats for the years 1970-1980, in 1970 and 71, Rafi has sung more songs than Kishore, so you could say from about 72-76 before Laila Majnu released, it was Kishore who ruled the roost. Rafi’s comeback to the charts is generally said to have started around 76-77. However here is an excerpt from Raju Bharatan’s recent article on Rafi:
“Still Rafi, by dint of sheer effort, had staged a comeback without parallel in the annals of the industry. A comeback beginning with Usha Khanna’s award-winning Teri Galiyon Mein in Hawas (1974).”
So according to RB, Rafi coming back started around 1974. Anyways, charts do not mean anything when talking about singing talent, and even though no male singer has had as much success on music charts as Rafi has, he was always a class apart as a singer.
Also, Rafi and Kishore have sung almost the same number of songs in the 70’s which is something interesting indeed.
I will mention one composer who I think after RDB took the best out of Kishore and that is Rajesh Roshan. Whenever Kishore sang for RR, I think he sounded different, more softer, their songs together are great from films such as Julie, Des Pardes, Swami etc. Junior Roshan was responsible for many of Kishore’s hits from the mid 70’s and onwards.
May 21st, 2007 at 3:55 am
Mast Mast, nothing special said by you…..
May 21st, 2007 at 5:23 am
P. Haldar,
I checked with a dear friend of mine who also a huge Rafi fan.
The point that Rafi saab took a break from singing is authentic. It was after his Haj pilgrimage in 1971 where a maulvi told him that singing was ‘haram’ and he quit singing for that period of time, roughly 8 months. This was a crucial period and during the time he was out of town, the majority of songs went to KK.
About your Bobby story, it is again true. Raj Kapoor wanted either Rafi or a new voice and Rafi could not record the songs because he was away. The songs were recorded sometime in 71, Bobby released in 72 or 73.
As you pointed out, Main Shaayar To Nahin would have been wonders in Rafi’s voice.
I would like to pose a question to Kishore fans as to why Raj Kapoor did not want to take Kishore for Bobby even when it was KK’s “peak” period ?.
May 21st, 2007 at 6:39 am
Hussein bhai, you keep saying Bapan and some other guys are repeating themselves .. well you too are doing the same.
Just a word for you. To them KK may be great as Rafi sahab is to you. Stop comparing the legends. They both have a special place in the hindi film music and we should accept them the way they are. Why is it that you guys can’t appreciate Rafi sahab without bringing in Kishore Kumar? Why is it not Mukesh, Manna Dey. They were no less than Kishore or others, right? If acc to you Rafi sahab is incomparable, then why are you bringing in Kishore Kumar at all? Does that make any sense to you?
The article is more on the discussion about the feuds between the fans and not the legends.
May 21st, 2007 at 6:57 am
kishore da was the gr8est is the gr8est & will always b gr8 & this is the fact no matter what some people say & i cant understand if some people dont consider kishore da as great singer than what are they doing to this website This is only 4 kishore da fans
May 21st, 2007 at 8:39 am
Jayanta,
Here’s an excerpt from an article Manna Dey wrote in Anandabazar Patrika after Naushad’s death. I met the great man after a concert last year and requested him to translate his autobiography from Bengali into English. Hope he does, so that the non-Bengali audience can know more about him and his opinions. You don’t have to buy the book; go to a book store and flip through the pages and see whose pictures appear the most other than his.
“Once some of my acquaintances from Kannada Radio wanted to interview Naushad saab and they asked me for my help. Naushad saab immediately agreed to my request. But the condition was that I would have to go to his house and have lunch with him. When I went, I found that lavish arrangements had been made; Muslims are famous for their hospitality. We chatted for a long time. With a smile on his face, he said, ‘Everyone asks me, who is a greater singer? Mohammed Rafi or Manna Dey?’ I smiled and replied, “Why don’t you tell them Rafi is a much better singer? I say that myself. That’s what I believe in my mind.’
I am saying it again, our and everyone’s favourite Rafi, India’s best male voice of all time, could transcend to a different level because of the magic in Naushad’s tunes. I do not have the words to express my gratitude and respect to Naushad for that.”
May 21st, 2007 at 9:31 am
Kishoreda is undoubtedly the greatest singer of all times.Rafi is far behind Kishoreda.
May 21st, 2007 at 9:34 am
Hi myk, you must be right about the break that Rafi took from his singing. Amit Kumar said somewhere that around that time, Rafi had invited him and his dad for a homemade meal when they were visting London for a concert. Apparently, Kishore joked about being in Rafi’s chorus at one time. Knowing Rafi, he might have said, “The keys to the kingdom are yours,” the line that Saigal used on him when he was in his teens.
You keep prodding me about the 70s but I’ll have to admit that my favourite Rafi songs are from the 50s and 60s (of course, there is Suhani raat dhal chuki from 1949). I am a bit old-fashioned that way; with Jai, SD, Madan Mohan and Roshan gone and with Naushad and OP losing their touch in the 1971-75 period, I am not sure whether Rafi could have produced the milestones that he was so used to producing in the 50s and the 60s. He would have ruled the charts, no doubt about that, but whether he could surpass the lofty standards that he himself had set, I’m not sure. Please note that musical tastes by then had shifted from “Paag me ghungroo bandh ke” (Naushad-Rafi) to “Paag ghungroo bandh ke Meera nache re” (Bappi-Kishore) and Rafi would have happily delivered whatever Bappi or the newer MDs wanted him to.
From the 70s, if I have to pick any one solo of his, I would select “Tum jo mil gaye ho”. Madan Mohan had given him a couple of other great solos, including “Tumse kahoon ek baat” (Dastak) and “Yeh duniya yeh mehfil” (Heer Ranjha), and, of course, there were the Laila Majnu songs. I would also select Khayyam’s “Kahin ek masoom nazuk si larki” (Shankar Hussain) and LP’s “Dard-e-Dil dard-e-jigar” (Karz). Of course, there is SD’s “Mera man tera pyaasa” (Gambler) but the song that is often overooked is the superb “Mehbooba teri tasveer” (IPZN). And then there is SJ’s “Unke khayal aaye to aake chale gaye” (Lal Patthar). I have mentioned earlier some of RD’s songs from HKKN and Abdullah, but none of them measured up to “Tum ne mujhe dekha”. Frankly, with the possible exception of “Tum jo mil gaye ho”, I wouldn’t put any of the afore-mentioned songs in Rafi’s top 25. I am very, very picky when it comes to Rafi.
I must confess that I don’t know much about the post-1980 period. When Rafi died, a part of me died; most often, I keep listening to the songs of the 50s and 60s. As far as Bengali songs are concerned, my tastes are similar to Sudip’s; listen mainly to Manna and Hemanta, but also to Lata and Asha. The elder sister had a very fruitful association with Salil and Hemanta, and the younger with Sudhin Dasgupta and, guess who? But Manna is my all-time favourite. If you ever get the chance, listen to his “Aami je jolsagor-ey” from Antony Firingi; the notes are somewhat similar to Rafi’s “Mere mehboob tujhe” and to this day haven’t been able to decide which one is the better of the two. The former is a little more pure, while in the latter, Rafi brings in his nuances for Rajendra Kumar.
May 21st, 2007 at 9:42 am
Kishoreda’s dominating period was from 1969 to 1987,contrary to Rafi’s 1955-1968.On that time ,Kishoreda was more into acting.When he turned into singing more,he overtook all competitions.From 1955 to 1968,Rafi faced strong competition from Mukesh,Kishoreda,Talat.Hemant,Manna Dey.But from 1969 to 1987,Kishoreda was way ahead others.Kishoreda could modulate his voice to suit the actor,not Rafi.In spite of having so much other talents,like acting,directing,dancing,music compose,writing lyrics,painting,Kishoreda is the greatest singer of all.Rafi had a feminine voice,with no heroism,modulation and variety.Kishoreda is the greatest and most popular singer of all times.
May 21st, 2007 at 8:12 pm
RAfi -feminine? You dont know anything about music. He is sweet and used to sing from the navel (read Anandji’s interview) unlike Sonu Nigam
Kishore= “Ki shor” (shouting)
May 21st, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Someone out there has said a joke- that Kishore kumar
became the No. one singer in 1968.
Sir, Aradhana was released in 69. Its first two duets were
sung by Rafi and Lata as S.D.BURMAN and the distributors wanted.
S.D. BURMAN got sick and R.D. BURMAN BROUGHT IN
KISHORE KUMAR. Kishore s time had come and we RAFI fans
under STAND this. Pl. do not distort facts .. and …..
Pl. stop dreaming as facts are indigestible often as they say
minds can be jaundiced……
Need I say more……
binu nair mumbai binus2000@hotmail.com
May 21st, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Manna Dey said, Rafi Saheb was ahead of all singers, KK was just temporary fad….. watch on www.youtube what Manna Dey say on Rafi Saheb.
May 21st, 2007 at 10:07 pm
KK’s favourite singer was MOHAMMED RAFI SAHEB, the greatest of all…
May 21st, 2007 at 11:24 pm
Dear fellow RAFIans, a thought just crossed my mind. Wouldn’t Rofi saheb, if he were alive today, been very happy to see his fans — Kishore, Yesudas, S. P. Balasubramaniam, Udit, Sonu, Srikanta Acharya — have such large fan followings themselves? Never say anything bad about any of these singers because they are part of the same clan. The larger their fan following, the prouder we should all be.
May 21st, 2007 at 11:25 pm
THIS IS MY LAST POST UNLESS PROVOKED…
First of all, a debate is a waste of time unless there is something to exchange and learn in the process. I do not think that I would be able to convince any KK fan to go the Rafi way, nor can they convince me to go the Kishore way.
Secondly, I found that I am possibly debating with 20-25 year old fops with juvenile knowledge of music. So there is little to learn for me in this excahnge. In this entire thread no KK fan has come with any song that would enlighten me on KK (Honestly I think I have heard more KK songs than most KK fan out there anyway). In the bargain, I have spelt out my preferences. KK fans would do well to take my list and spare some time in listening to Rafi classics and see if they reverse (if not change) their opinion.
That way I can take solace in the fact that I did not entirely waste my time and energy.
Bye…
May 22nd, 2007 at 2:15 am
Hi P. Haldar,
Thanks again for your views, I totally agree with you, Rafi set very high standards, in other words he set the benchmark for singing. I would love to hear the Bengali songs that you mentioned, I have heard only a few from the 60’s, others would be definitely be welcome.
What are your views about Junior Roshan ?. Right now, I am into another aspect of his music, his duets. They were just amazing in the 70’s, for both Kishore and Rafi. He worked with the best lyricists at that time, Majrooh, Sahir, Gulzar etc, and produced one great soundtrack after the other. However in the 80’s he could not quite maintain his quality with the exception of a few albums here and there.
One duet that stands out, I rank it as the best ever duet of Kishore-Lata-Rafi, ‘Kya Mausam Hai’ from Doosra Aadmi, it is a masterpiece, all three have done a fantastic job, and the music is excellent.
May 22nd, 2007 at 2:19 am
Actually ‘Kya Mausam Hai’ cannot be qualified as a duet, it involves three singers.
Junior Roshan created an identity of his own, he had a great sense of orchestration, melody as well as rhythm. You can tell a RR composition from another song just by his trademark flair and punch. He had the opportunity to work with all the greats, Rafi, Lata, Kishore, Asha, even Mukesh (I believe he has some songs with him too).
May 22nd, 2007 at 2:45 am
kk ru;ed from 70’s tillthe end, no matter what u say!. after aradhana it was all kk, the few hits of rafi were buired and crushed under thousands of kk hits !..songs like pardaparda?..lol..few hits ike this doesnt prove the fact that rafi made a comeback!…nope his reign was brough to an end after aradhana!..songs like parda ye parda, dad e dilwas ncie but could not transcede the passing of time, that is y you here sons like om shanti on rated higher above than those!. ok u r telling that between77 to 80 rafi had more hits?..goshu must be joing..i challenge u list downthe hits of rafi..and i will list down that of kk during that period..rafi will fail miserably!
yes, rafi saab was talented a great singer,..but uptil aradhana it was ok..and ppl like who with their biased views try to bring rafi’s influence during 70s’s which was noting as compared to what rafi produced during the 60’s!..and even befroehand during the initial periods rafi had to undergo tough competitions from manna,talat,hemant etc to cement his position!..kk on the otherhandmanaged everything..starting from acting,composing,script writing,singing,directing,producing and what else!
long like kishoreda
May 22nd, 2007 at 8:38 am
Jayanta;
It is not about quantity, but about quality.
Agreed Kishore sung volumes of junk. I do not even consider “Om Shanti Om” a song.
In the whole 1980s show me one song of the calibre of “Tu is Tarah Se Meri Zindagi mein shamil hai” (Aap to aise na the). You may say “Sagar Kinare”-huh. That’s a classic for you?
May 22nd, 2007 at 8:52 am
Hi myk, like Sudip I think I should make a graceful exit from this site. There is no point in arguing with people who keep repeating the same lines, mostly without any basis.
As far as junior Roshan is concerned, he must be good. I’ve heard the duets from Julie and Kala Patthar; they are good. As I’ve said before, I haven’t followed the post-1980 period closely, so can’t comment on it much. But if you focus on duets only, the masters of the game are SD, SJ, OP, RD and LP. For SD, the combinations to look for are Rafi-Geeta, Rafi-Lata, Rafi-Asha, Kishore-Asha and Kishore-Lata. For OP, it’s Rafi-Geeta and Rafi-Asha. For SJ, it’s more varied: Manna-Lata, Mukesh-Lata, Rafi-Lata and some Rafi-Suman. For RD it’s mostly Kishore-Asha and Kishore-Lata, but there are some good Rafi-Asha songs too. For LP, it’s mainly Rafi-Lata and Kishore-Lata, but there are quite a few Mukesh-Lata hits. OP’s orchestration in “Diwana hua badal” (KKK) is one of the best experiments in fusing different instruments. SD was awesome; listen to any duet of his and there’s always something great about the music. There is a Rafi-Lata duet in Vasant Desai’s “Jeevan mein piya tera saath rahe” (Goonj Uthe Sehnai), whose pace simply takes your breath away. But the duet of the century was composed by Jaidev for Hum Dono, “Abhi na jao chhor kar ke dil abhi bhara nahi” by Rafi-Asha.
May 22nd, 2007 at 9:35 am
Hi myk, two more duets that impressed me a lot: Manna-Lata in LP’s “Tum gagan ki chandrama” and Mukesh-Asha in Khayyam’s “O subhah kabhi to ayegi”.
As for junior Roshan, please check if his music has any Bengali influence. His mother Ira Moitra is Bengali and used to sing for AIR when Roshan met her. Senior Roshan was outstanding; the Outlook poll that Sudip mentioned has his “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare” as the No. 1 song ever. Of course, there is always a lot of subjectivity involved in such a ranking, and given the vast treasure of songs it’s difficult, if not impossible, to identify the best song. But for whatever reason, this song always gets the attention of singers and composers. I’ve heard Kishore sing it on stage, Lata singing it for her Shraddhanjali album, Jaidev playing it in the Jaimala program,… Another Roshan song that I particularly like is the qawaali sung by Manna and Rafi in Barsaat ki Raat; Roshan actually used Ustad Fateh Ali Khan’s (Nusrat’s dad) composition for this song with permission. Manna starts with “Na tu karwan ki talash” and Rafi follows with “Yeh ishq ishq yeh ishq ishq”. Listen to the sufi strains in Rafi’s voice and see how easily he reaches the high octaves, keeping his vocal splendour intact; it’s almost a divine experience.
May 22nd, 2007 at 9:38 am
Jayanta,
Seems to me you need to check the Binaca Geet Mala records for the amount of hits Rafi had in the 70’s, and in particular 76-80. I don’t think you know a lot from that period. You will be surprised to know that Rafi equalled Kishore in hit songs and especially from 79-81 it was Rafi everywhere on the Radio, very little of Kishore. Your comment “few hits” of Rafi is so hilarious, makes me wonder if you know anything about that time frame.
Your comments are not based on fact, whatever you have said has no backup, it is based only on opinion, not fact. If you would like to debate in a healthy way, please back it up with facts, not opinions, like others have done.
I can surely take you up on that challenge and you will be surprised but I think its a waste of time writing down the hit songs from both singers here, if you knew what I was talking about you wouldn’t be writing down such comments. For your info, refer back to my previous post, in 77, 78, 80, 81, Rafi songs are tops followed by numerous other hit songs, I don’t think you are able to digest that fact. One Rafi ace Dard-e-Dil in fact did transcend time, much more than the other hits from Karz.
Can you please tell me why RDB gave most of his qawwali’s to Rafi and most of his classical songs to Bhupinder instead of Kishore ?. No one has also answered my question yet as to why Raj Kapoor did not want to take Kishore for Bobby, and had only Rafi or a new voice in mind ?.
Your arguments are funny, you mention Rafi had to undergo tough competition, what competition was that ?. He single handedly wiped away all competition in the early 50’s. You fail to mention Kishore as one of the singers who could not seem to get a break during that time and resort to (as what others have done) his acting. Kishore was an all-rounder, but there is absoutely no comparison in singing to Rafi.
You don’t mention Kishore as being part of the competition in the 50’s, and only when you want, you mention he sang songs, but then when it comes to Rafi ruling the roost, you mention Kishore was busy acting, how silly is that !!.
I don’t think you know a great deal about your favourite singer, because if you did, you would know he came to Mumbai to be a singer but had to wait more than twenty years to finally achieve success.
I am with Sudip on this one, no point in debating for no reason especially when some cannot comprehend certain facts.
For your info, Rafi and Kishore sang almost the same amount of songs in the 70’s, bet you didn’t know that. I suggest you don’t mention Rafi’s influence in the 70’s unless you know what you are talking about.
May 22nd, 2007 at 9:48 am
JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!
JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!
JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!
JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!
JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!
JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!
JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!
JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!
JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!
JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!
JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!
JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!
Hussein Sekh,I know you are the only Rafi fan here,so don’t change your name and write as different persons.Get lost.
JAI JAI KISHORE KUMAR,THE GREATEST SINGER AND VERSATILE GENIUS!!!
HAI HAI MOHD RAFI,THE MEDIOCRE SINGER!!!
May 22nd, 2007 at 11:41 am
I am new here but I agree with Halder, manish, sudip and myk. Rafi was gaining pack his position by 1980.
If Rafi hadn’t died in 1980, he would possibly have sung:
a. All Ek Duje ke liye songs
b. All Betaab songs that went to Shabbir Kumar
c. All SP Bala songs in Sagar and other films.
plus more..
I think the Ek Duje Ke Liye songs would have made him #1 without any dispute..
May 22nd, 2007 at 12:26 pm
Very True JAYANTHA,
KK was a JACK of many trades as you have said. The MASTER
of Play back was Rafi saab . For any hero , for any situation, in
any pitch, in any language including ENGLISH (baharon phool
barsao and Hum Kaale hai to kya huwa- the English versions)
and for every actor.
Rafi is the TANSEN of Music. No one before him or anyone after
him so far has managed to retain the sweetness of MELO dy.
I myself started as a KK lover IN 1970-71 PERIOD but after
listening to Saighal, Talat saab, Mukesh, Hemanta, Manna da
quickly reverted to Mohd.Rafi whose tunes and magic has only
increased with time. I was 16 years then.
Even the new generation sing Rafi songs i n style - as they
are EVERGREEN AND MELODIOUS TO THE EAR.
kk was on top yes for a few years after 1970 when RAFI took
a sabbatical .But, RAFI duly came back after some of the composers
had written him off..
Soon, R.D. Burman faded and also the big talk that he did’nt need
Rafi in his music rooms.
Rafi saab topped the charts in 78 - 80 period which is a FACT.
BUT SOME OF KK fans would never be able to digest this TRUTH/
fact.
So , let it be that way…. And WE end the topic…..
binu nair binus2000@hotmail.com Mumbai.
May 22nd, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Kishoreda was at the top in playback singing from 1969 to 1987.He is the greatest singer,comic hero and genius of all times.
May 22nd, 2007 at 2:39 pm
Some foolish and ignorant people are telling that Rafi was back at the top in 1977. Rafi was never at the top after 1969. Kishoreda singlehandedly ruled the music industry from 1969 to 1987.And not to forget his other talents.
May 22nd, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but the ignorants do not know what music is ýand think that teen-kanastar peet peet kar gala phaad kar chillana is gaana that’s why ýdebjyoti,bapan and jayanta are unable to appreciate Rafisaab.You go on to say that ýRafisaab was trained whereas Kishore Kumar was untrained, C’mmon man KK was ýin the industry for more than 20 years before Aradhana happened. Did he not had the ýtime and resources to learn music.And if you do not know before becoming an actor ýAshok Kumar used to deal in selling of musical instruments.He had a shop in ýMalad(Bombay).And KK was a kid when Ashok Kumar became an actor ,He had the ýinstruments at his disposal as he also used to sit at the shop, so he knew the basics of ýmusic and he also knew the range of his voice.Regarding the song ‘Ajab hai dastan ýterei aye zindagi’ in the film ‘Shararat’, The legendary Jaikishan had remarked that ýthe song was simply not KK’s cup of Tea, If you hear the song please listen to the ýline ‘tumhare pyaar ke is aanchal tale hamare gum dhale hamare gum dhale’ The ýsmoothness with which Rafi comes down from the higher notes to the lower and then ýcarries on ‘Dhala andhera jagi roshni’ PLEASE LISTEN TO IT you will understand ýthe remark made by Jaikishen is so very true. I like many of KK’s songs and ýappreciate the fact that given his limitataions he was one of the best our country has ýproduced but Why don’t KK fans simply appreciate the fact that trained or untrained, ýthe quality of Rafisaabs voice was a gift of the Almighty and his dedication to music ýand humblenes as a human being make him stand on a pedestal that one can only look ýat with reverence. This is the reason why you can see any Tom,dick and Harry ýsinging KK’s simple song and also sounding like him in total perfection for at least ýone song sung by KK but you can’t witness any one singing Rafisaab’s song with the ýsame tonal quality.Take man tadpat form baiju bawra and Jaan pehchan and all the ýother genre come in between.And the guy who is using orkut to prove that KK is the ýbest has surely gone out of his mind.How many Indians or Hindi music lovers are ýthere,Are they all computer literate,do all have access to Internet.Are they all ýregistered with orkut???ý
Go to the masters of classical music,give them your options and ask them whom they ýrate higher Rafi or Kishore and then we will see who is the best,Singer Vinod rathod ýwho is a devout Kishore Bhakt had said in an interview after the release of Baazigar ýthat “Mai Kishoreda ko hi follow karta tha lekin jabse music ki samajh aaye hai ýmaine Rafisaab ko sunna shuru kiya”. In India we have anti-social elements voted to ýbecome,MP,MLA,CM..the list goes on,Does their getting elected remove the tag of ýcriminal from their names ,They also have a proof of their majority, but is it true they ýwere good and so were elected.So my dear friend You can keep a track of this Orkut ýrecord to satisfy your own ego as well as those of your likes, who cares??ý
May 22nd, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Hi P. Haldar,
I will join you and Sudip in making a graceful exit as well.
Rajesh Roshan was trained by Ustad Faiyaz Khan, and before his debut Kunwara Baap he assisted L-P. He has mentioned in interviews that he regards L-P as a complete school of music where he learnt a lot about composing and laxmikant took him under his wing and groomed him well. Imagine grooming a potential competitor, that is what hapened in thi situation. His music has fok influences but also influence of the Vangelis and Eagles, two music groups. I will check up on if RR’s music has Bengali influence.
The composers you mentioned for duets were indeed the best, and I would like to add another name to that list, K-A. Their duets were excellent especially by Lata-Rafi. Also included in their repetoire are Asha-Rafi, Asha-Kishore, Lata-Kishore and Lata-Mukesh.
SD was indeed awesome in duets, the majority of them are great, and about “Man re tu ka”, this is another masterpiece of a composition. Roshan was another great composer, Lata picked him as the MD for her home production that never took off.
May 22nd, 2007 at 8:38 pm
I personally believe that Kishoreda was way ahead than Rafisaab as Kishoreda was a natural talent that was awesome.
I dont shed a drop of tear after listening to emotional number of rafisaab but needless to say that Kishoreda same number make me breathless….
The debate will go on here that is for sure but ultimately all and sundry out here will realise that Kishoreda was single and Rafisaab can be born many a times…..Love u Kishoreda miss u…………
May 22nd, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Dear Debijyoti:
How will you feel if we all say Hai Hai to your entire family; the
most mediocre family who brought you up to say and to use such
phrases for the greatest singer of our land : Mohd Rafi..
You have downgraded the spirit of the debate and you have
stooped too low Mr.Debijyoti. Is your Master too of your class???
Do you want us to tell in this forum that that YOUR VERSATILE GENIOUS was sent to jail for 15 days for dodging the Income tax and he was left high and dry in the INDUSTRY.
You are instigating RAFI music lovers by using roadside phrases and
you must be ready to reap what you sow…..STOP IT N O W…..
BINU NAIR
May 22nd, 2007 at 9:32 pm
Dear Debjyoti:
What you have said to Mr Hussain is due to you having
hallucinations. Its a PSYCHIATRIC condition that you are
feeling now.
You feel that Hussein is one person using different names.
You need immediate PSYCHIATRIC treatment for this. And you
also said : get lost to Hussein due to this hallucination.
I live in Mumbai and myself can chat live with you to prove that
Hussen does not use alibis. Same with many writers of whom
you feel the same.
As I said earlier… you need urgent Psychiatric treatment for
your mental condition and I can HELP YOU OUT…
contact me: binus2000@hotmail.com
May 22nd, 2007 at 10:29 pm
though kk could not outsmart rafi with all of his soatributed abilities,kk fans will surely tarnish porr rafi with their harsh and unfounded comments.what a pity.hear music with ears and heart
May 22nd, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Shame on debjyoti… sadak chhap… an uneducated KK fan! This is what one expect from a KK fan. I believe it’s a waste of time for us to visit this site. Useless really. Even an African negro is much better educated than this chap. This chap has crossed the level. A junglee fellow! KK if alived would have slapped this chap who spoke harsh on Rafi Saheb.
May 23rd, 2007 at 12:13 am
KK had four wifes it is true and became Muslim and changed his name to if am not wrong to Kassam Ali to marry….plz listen to song in flim Kranti when mohd Rafi enter to the song……KK was at top from 1969 to 1987!!!!!!!?that what u kk fans say but we Mohd Rafi say that Mohd Rafi is still at the top and will be,Lata ji had Bharat Ratna award but we Mohd Rafi fans think that award should given to Mohd Rafi before Lata Ji but u KK fans never spoke about that because u r sure that this award is more higher from u r KK,Talat Ji said that Mohd Rafi voice is gift from God but Mohd Rafi made it gift to God,SB said when he listen to Mohd Rafi he think that he is not half of Mohd Rafi,Asha Ji said no one can win Mohd Rafi,OP Nayar,Naushand,Madan Mohan,SD and LP do u KK fans know who are they and what they said about Mohd Rafi u kk fans know more these great people in music world.
DO U KK fans know that flim maker and actor want kk to sing in Flim Laila Majnu but Madan Mohan said no he will use Mohd Rafi,I know u kk fans are blind mind u can’t see the trueth but please put KK voice in flim Laila Majnu songs….and many more,Raj Kapoor didn’t used Mohd Rafi much but he said that Mohd rafi is the best same to Manoj Kummar.
we should feel sham to compare Mohd Rafi with KK.really i don’t understant how someone can say that KK was better SINGER!!!!!!
May 23rd, 2007 at 4:49 am
Kishore is a better singer than Rafi because he can act.
Kishore is a better actor than Naseeruddin Shah because he can sing
Kishore is a better soccer player than Maradona because he can also sing and act
–BIZARRE LOGIC
First of all I think he as a good singer but a lousy actor.
Since most of the Kishore fans are Bengalees here, let me remind them of Tulsi Chakraborty in Sharey Chuattar or Rabi Ghosh in Galpo Holeo Satyi or Santosh Dutta in Jai Baba Felunath..
That is what is called comedy not Kishore-sumar-style-bharamo (utter frivolity)
May 23rd, 2007 at 9:20 am
Well said Anand,Kishoreda is obviously the greatest and most popular singer of all times.
May 23rd, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Someone said that “The debate will go on here that is for sure but ultimately all and sundry out here will realise that Kishoreda was single and Rafisaab can be born many a times”….Well Kumar sanu,abhijeet,shaan,vinod rathod,babul supriyo and the list goes on.What a JOKE hahahaha.Now don’t you say that we have Anwar,shabbir kumar,Mohd Aziz,Sonu as Rafi clones. What I want to point out is how much lies you guys invent just for defending your rotten arguments.
May 23rd, 2007 at 6:21 pm
For saying Hai Hai to The greatest singer Rafi, Kishore da would
have slapped Debojyit and closed this site as KK respected
Rafi saab.
KK once slapped a fan for saying some foolish thing abour Rafi saab.
And when SADAK CHAAP FANS enter the EDUCATED AND LITERATE
LEAVE THE PLACE… ANY PLACE FOR THAT MATTER….
SO BYE BYE….
binu nair binus2000@hotmail.com.
May 24th, 2007 at 2:23 am
Couldn’t stop posting this one.
A R Rahman recent interview:
————————————
Are you hunting for more singers? What about instrumentalists?
I am always on the lookout for new talent. These days I am looking for a good male voice. Like Rafi, not ˜roughy” (laughs). Someone who can switch octaves with that ease.
If you can’t guess who a “roughy” singer could be, come to this site and look at the picture at the top.
May 24th, 2007 at 9:35 am
What to say about this man,he is my dream man,everyone’s favourite.Kishore Kumar is not only the best singer ever,but also the best human being,was quite humourous too.I have allways rated him far ahead than other singers like Rafi and Mukesh.No one can ever match his talents,he mastered every art.His acting,dancing was also the best.Not to forget him as a director,musician and lyricist.In short he is GOD.He is best.Personally,I don’t like Rafi’s songs at all.Rafi is liked by very few people of previous generation,while Kishore Kumar is liked by millions of people all over the world.
From Bandita-a die-hard Kishore fan.
May 24th, 2007 at 10:17 am
I know this is going to sound ridiculous but…
I would really have liked to listen to a Kishore Kumar version of “Pardah Hai Pardah Hai.” He would have done an EXCELLENT job and I can gauge that from merely the one line he sang in the song. One of my favorite qawwalis is actually a KK qawwali - Haal Kya Hai Dillon from that 1973 Jeetendra movie. Sure, KK wouldn’t do the alaaps and such but his own version would still be special in a different way. No matter how good something is, if you’re too much into it - you will be desensitized to it. Sometimes I get “tired” of Rafi singing every single qawwali and like to resort to a different, fresh voice. Kishore seemed to be at 100% capacity of his abilities when uttering that line but he could pull it off.
May 24th, 2007 at 11:14 am
It is not a very useful thing to compare two singers or actors. This cannot be understood by fans who soon loose all sense pf proportion and support their singer against all comments. I am a kishore fan and have been so all my fifty years of age. But it was only recently that I had the oppertunity to listen to Kishore, Rafi , Hemonto, and Mannadey on high quality MP3 players during extended metrorail travels to office. What I heard surprised me. The Mp3 music can be heard very closely in the ears and when you hear a long collection of songs of each , the effect can be quite revealing.What I have to say is this:
About voice quality
The order in which you can place the above mentioned singers is Kishore, Rafi, Manna, quite a few others and Hemonto. I find that it is possible to find many good voices among female stars due to the higher frequency content which the human organism reproduces better(?). But this fact is being proved time and gain by the sa re ga ma contests which have found many good contenders to Lata and asha and records show that there have always been good contenders to them. It is the male voice with versatility which is difficult to find. On the MP3 if you listen to the slow passages you will find that inferior voices loose their musicality and sound banal. It is only kishore and rafi who can meet the challenge. I have no quarrel to pick with the Rafi fans on this count, however I place Kishore above Rafi comparing them on a huge repertoire of songs.
Conveyance of the song
However it is on the second count that kishore excels. His songs convey the feeling and context of the song better than anybody else. The emotional songs sound natural and not concocted. It was because he was an excellent actor, acting in sad and comedy films with elan. He was a Director who could convey the song context very aptly.
He did not have any classical music training , like from a classical Guru, however the training he recieved from his sister who was a classical artist of repute and the encouragement from the avid listeners of his fathers lawyer friends, nurtured an interest from a young age and natural understanding of what ‘listens good’, never left him. He could say a line of prose musically.
It is these qualities that place him as a singer above everybody else and unfortunately it is this combination of a singer with top voice quality with his understanding of context, acting and direction that will be hard to find in another singer for a long , long time to come, maybe a thousand years?
May 24th, 2007 at 11:18 am
Kishoreda is simply the best and so is Mohd Rafi sahab.Comparing people diffrent styles is utter foolishness.All those Rafi fans posting veiws against Kishoreda are not good enough to be called mohd Rafi sahab’s fans.they are no fans but are enemy to music. WE JUST CAN’T COMPARE TAJ MAHAL’s BEAUTY WITH HEIGHT OF THE PETRONAS TOWER’S.Hence simply starting a debate over greatness of two god’s of music is just wastage of time listen to music and just enjoy it.
May 24th, 2007 at 11:31 am
Nothing further to add, I confirm what I said.
May 24th, 2007 at 11:43 am
years after the death of rafi and kk music lovers very actively participating in debates abot them.thiz reveals the imprint and legacy left behind by them.comparison between them is not at all possible as rafi is very muchahead than kk as a singer,kk is ahead than rafi as an actor.
May 24th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Debjoyoti and other shameless creeps
If this is how you love and represent Kishore that you need to make insulting comments about the noble and graceful Mohammed Rafi then you have a major inferiority complex and suffer from insecurity.
Your lack of knowledge suggests that either you are a kid or simply a usless person who has time to dish out shit on this respected site.
Leave these legends alone as most of you don’t have even an iota of knowledge about their quality of singing and their mutual respect and love they had for each other.
May 24th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
sorry moderators, i just saw my post. I take my comments back. You should anyway not allow such nonsese to get through this respected site.
May 25th, 2007 at 6:05 am
Interesting article but inept title. The title must read “enldess feud between facts and desperate KK fans”
By forcing KK to be pitied with legends like Rafi, all these KK fans have achieved is scaling down the memory of KK and insulting his fantastic achievements. When they fail to satisfy their burning urge to somehow convince themselves that KK was better than someone else, they start throwing abuses and get involved with discussions that could put sewage to shame.
It surprises me why fans of Mukesh, Hemant Kumar, Mana Dey and Mohammed Rafi do not have such discussions on their site.
Something to really ponder about??
Another point to ponder about is why it is that the name of Mohammed Rafi brings feelings of hate and anxiety to a section of the self proclaimed KK fans.
Rafi, a true symbol of playback singing who in the words of Lata filled the void left by the legendry K.L. Saigal, someone who mastered every skill of singing from the early 1940s to the 80’s. A name that is a sign of dignity and pride not only for India but for the sub-continent. A unmatched personality who did not allow even a spec of arrogance and pride take over his unmatched and rare skills and fame that no one has ever had in HFM, a person of high levels of modesty, kindness and decency and who all his colleagues including KK adored and respected.
So why the name Rafi irks these bigots? Truth hurts and facts are only for the wise. In both cases you have failed.
Feel sorry for KK that he has such by such a disgraceful following. If he was alive today, he would have disowned you all.
May 25th, 2007 at 7:27 am
Mr. Dron - All legends have different categories of fan so typifying all under one category whether it is Rafi sahab fans or KK fans makes no sense.
A handful of them in both cases like to compare legends to show why the favour one of them.
So I do not think it is polite to say disgrace etc.. to any of them. This is an open board and each one of us have a right to voice why we favour someone. Facts are meant for statisticians and researches to ponder over, not for personal preferences.
May 25th, 2007 at 8:01 am
The discussion is getting a little more interesting, so I thought I’d contribute my bit. Here’s what I did; I randomly selected a year (1965) and identified 20 Rafi solos released that year. Here they are:
1. Din dhal jaye (Guide - S. D. Burman)
2. Tere mere sapne (Guide - S. D. Burman)
3. Kya se kya ho gaya (Guide - S. D. Burman)
4. Yahan main ajnabi hoon (JJPK - Kalyanji Anandji)
5. Pardesiyon se na aankhiyan milana (JJPK - Kalyanji Anandji)
6. Aye watan aye watan (Shaheed - Prem Dhawan)
7. Sarfaroshi ki tamanna (Shaheed - Prem Dhawan)
9. Pukarta chala hoon main (Mere Sanam - O. P. Nayyar)
10. Tukre hai mere dil ko (Mere Sanam - O. P. Nayyar)
11. Jaag dil-e-deewana (Oonche Log - Chittragupt)
12. Tera husn rahe mera ishq rahe (Do Dil - Hemant Kumar)
13. Aye phoolon ke rani (Aarzoo - Shankar-Jaikishan)
14. Chhalke teri aankhon mein (Aarzoo - Shankar-Jaikishan)
15. Jaan pehchan ho (Gumnaam - Shankar-Jaikishan)
16. Hum kale hai to kya hua dil wale hai (Gumnaam - Shankar-Jaikishan)
17. Chhoo lene do nazuk honto ko (Kajal - Ravi)
18. Dil jo na kahe saka (Bheegi Raat - Roshan)
19. Kahin bekhayal hokar (Teen Deviyan - S. D. Burman)
20. Aise to na dekho (Teen Deviyan - S. D. Burman)
These songs cover a wide range of genres (ghazal, patriotic, rock ‘n roll, comedy…), were composed by several MDs (SD, OP, SJ, Roshan, Hemant, Ravi…) and sung on screen by different actors (Dev Anand, Dharmendra, Shammi, Biswajeet, Rajendra Kumar, Raj Kumar, Shashi Kapoor, Mehmood…). The “voice” goes high pitch, low pitch, short pitch, full pitch,… and conveys feelings of every kind (masti, gam, mohabbat, sharabi, mawali, beqarari, desh-preeti…).
Can someone tell me — and this is for my own education — in which songs Kishore would sound better (with respect to voice and feeling)?
In most countries, if a singer had sung 40 such songs in a lifetime, he or she would have been bestowed all possible honours and awards; there would be no need for any debate. The Indian diaspora across the world — in Birmingham, London, Toronto, Port of Spain, the Fijis, Nairobi, Dubai, New York, Colombo and Singapore — has been swaying to Rafiana for the last 50 years. And now we are being told that there are other singers who are far ahead in conveying emotions!
When Rafi sang “Suhani raat dhal chuki” in 1949, I don’t think there was a proper recording room, forget about digital gizmos. No one even remembers who sang it on screen, but yet the lustre of that song grows with every passing year. Likewise, no one knows who danced to the tune of “Madhuban mein radhika nache re”. Fifty years from now, when no one would care for Dev Anand or Rajesh Khanna, people would still be listening to Rafi’s priceless gems. Because Rafi is the ultimate benchmark, the barometer for gauging the worth of the popular singer of the day.
Instead of 1965, I could have selected 1966. Do I need to remind readers which “suraj” shone that year or which MD got elevated to his “loRD” status? Yes, two more gems surfaced that year among his countless others: “Baharo phool barsao” and “Tumne mujhe dekha”.
May 25th, 2007 at 10:43 am
Mr. Dron - All legends have different categories of fan so typifying all under one category whether it is Rafi sahab fans or KK fans makes no sense.
>>>>Mr Mast
>>>>Please read carefully, I said a section of KK fans. Lets not talk about sense after what is being posted on this site, ok.
A handful of them in both cases like to compare legends to show why the favour one of them.
>>>>It is more of an epidemic with KK fans that they always bring rafi in this discussion and not others who were also champion singers.
So I do not think it is polite to say disgrace etc.. to any of them.
>>> The word polite on this site is like speaking about peace with a terrorist.
This is an open board and each one of us have a right to voice why we favour someone.
>> Sure but thats not the case here.
Facts are meant for statisticians and researches to ponder over, not for personal preferences.
>> No figures are meants for statisticans, facts and truth go hand in hand. Simply having personal preferences will not change the facts.
May 25th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
Sorry Sir, I do not agree with you, not even with a single point.
If you see the comment section, there are more Rafi fans here arguing.. We have only one or two .. Debjyot and Bandita refuting and dragging Rafi sahab in comparison, which I too abhor.
I am a KK fan too (btw it is a Ms not Mr
) but I like Rafi sahab songs too and I give credit to both of them for what they have given me by way of lovely songs that I still relish even after they have left us and gone.
To me facts and figures do not matter, coz ultimately I am here to listen and enjoy their songs and not sit and compare and make an analysis. That is sheer waste of time hahahaha
Life is too short to fight over these trivial issues
This is my humble opinion. You may disagree but I have a right to my opinion. 
May 25th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
U cant compare a bright light with the light of a star or a Sun, Therefore U cant compare Kishore with The Great Rafi ! .. Rafi can sing Kishore’s songs.. but the question is can Kishore do the same ?? Rafi Never had a competitor.. He was the undisputed King of Playback singing. When Rafi never had a competitor.. how can u compare anyone else with him ?? Kishore was a wonderful singer.. all praises for him .. but he looked up to Rafi.. Rafi has played back for Kishore as well. .. now if Kishore was better than Rafi .. why did he use Rafi’s voice for some songs picturised on him ??
One statement ends the feud.
May 26th, 2007 at 7:28 am
Couldn’t help re-posting after P Haldar’s knowledgeable post.
I know he has knowingly chosen to leave out “Humdum mere Man bhi jao” from Mere Sanam and “Yahan main ajnabi hoon” from JJPK. The reason I would highlight these is that it skews Rafi’s boundaries further, the former being a relatively fast number amidst the romatic Pukarta Chala and sad Tukde Hai mere dil ke and the latter being the the best song according to Anandji that Rafi ever sang for KA duo.
If I were to choose my favorite Rafi years, I would choose 1968-1969 (YES-the very ARADHANA year)..From Mere Huzoor, Mere Humdum Mere Dost, Anjaana, Do raaste, Brahmachari, neel kamal, Jhuk Gaya Aasman, Aadmi, to Aradhana, talash, Tumse Accha Kaun Hai and the lesser known Mahua Rafi delivered gems one after the other.
It is also in 1968-69 that we see two evening based songs sung by Kishore and Rafi that happen to be my favorites and can compete for the best song for this mood.. Kishore’s “Woh Shaam kuch ajeeb this” is a traditional favorite..To me Rafi went a notch up with “Hui shaam unka khayal aa gaya” (KK fans will disagree, who cares)… Enjoy.
May 26th, 2007 at 10:25 am
ANAND: Here’s an emotional gem of Mohammed Rafi, I’d like to hear what you think. It isn’t a particurly tragic number meant to make you cry, but surely you feel something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZSnVzngiG4
Two songs immediately come to mind when thinking of Kishore’s emotional songs…O Saathi Re and Aana Wala Pal
If a singer like Mohammed Rafi can be born numerous times again, how many singers can you name that was the UNDISPUTED #1 singer for ~20 years? Not many.
May 26th, 2007 at 10:38 am
Kishore Kumar’s popularity remains intact today because he was indeed a GREAT SINGER who changed the course of India Cinema and Music but what makes him EXTRA popular to this day: he was the voice of Amitabh Bachchan.
Amitabh Bachchan is still an active actor maintaining a busy schedule and therefore people still keep him in mind in the present rather than the relatively passive past. As a result of this, they are better AWARE of his greatness and of his past works - and of course, what is tied to Amitabh Bachchan’s greatness is the AMAZING VOICE of Kishore Kumar.
Yes, people know Dilip Kumar or Dharmendra were great actors, but they know it “passively” since these guys are out of the present radar. The voices of these guys was of course, the one and only Mohammed Rafi. Rafi does not get that Amitabh Bachchan benefit that Kishore has. P Haldar was keen to point out that Rafi remained on top in the late 1970s despite Kishore having the advantage that his HEAVY voice better suited the reigning superstar of that time. Nevertheless, Rafi proved to have greater versatility as a playback singer because his voice was just right. Not too deep, not too low and very clean and as a result of this he did seamless playback for dozens of actors. Kishore’s specific deep voice did not suit as many actors.
As a Rafi fan, I liked his rendition of Zindagi Ek Safar better: he displayed better tonal quality i.e. his voice was fuller. In Tum Bin Jaon Kahan, Rafi’s voice was more crisp whereas Kishore’s rendition had a relatively BLUNT and COARSE voice. The operative word here is RENDITION because Kishore could have made his voice more crisp had he wanted in my opinion, as he has demonstrated that ability in other songs like Padosan. At the same time, this goes both ways because the only reason Kishore’s version was more popular was because of the yodelling - Rafi could have yodelled just as well as Kishore if he wanted (but it was looked down upon for a trained singer to do so) - don’t underestimate Rafi’s amazing vocals.
May 26th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Sorry Sir, I do not agree with you, not even with a single point.
>> You dont have to be sorry for that!!!
If you see the comment section, there are more Rafi fans here arguing.. We have only one or two .. Debjyot and Bandita refuting and dragging Rafi sahab in comparison, which I too abhor.
>> They are not arguing but taking their important time out by rationally presenting facts although they are not obliged to do it.
>>>Nice to know you abhor these miserable people. I too abhor those few Rafi fans who speak nonsese about KK and others.
I am a KK fan too (btw it is a Ms not Mr ) but I like Rafi sahab songs too and I give credit to both of them for what they have given me by way of lovely songs that I still relish even after they have left us and gone.
>> Fair thinking.
To me facts and figures do not matter, coz ultimately I am here to listen and enjoy their songs and not sit and compare and make an analysis. That is sheer waste of time hahahaha
>> Yes but everyone is not like you.
Life is too short to fight over these trivial issues This is my humble opinion. You may disagree but I have a right to my opinion.
>>> I will not diasgree simply because you disagreed to my post which I still stand for as I have seen over the years about the pathetic attititude of so called KK fans.
May 26th, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Very good observations, Manish, Sudip and Halder.
May 26th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Sudip, I did include “Yahan main ajnabi hoon” from JJPK (No. 4). I had to leave out quite a few good songs and I agree that “Humdum mere maan bhi jao” would have better demonstrated his range. Select any year in the 60s and you’ll have a problem in identifying the top 20, such was his output those days. You mentioned 1968-69 as being your favourite years. Chirag came out in 1969 and Rafi had two beautiful solos (Teri aankhon ke siva and Chirag dil ko jalawo); the first one was also sung by Lata for her favourite composer, but Rafi’s is the one that is better (my opinion) and much more popular (fact).
Instead of 1969, you could also try the beginning of that decade. In 1960, here are some films that had Rafi’s gems: Kohinoor, Chaudvin ka Chaand, Kala Bazaar, Lal Quila, Barsat ki Raat, Kalpana, Mughal-e-Azam and Bambai ka Babu. Kala Bazaar is known for “Khoya khoya chaand” but listen to “Apni to har aah ik toofan hai”. In Chaudvin ka Chaand, other than the title song, listen to “Mili khak me mohabbat”. Among the many wonderful duets Manna and Rafi sang together, a personal favourite of mine is “Tu hai mera prem devata” from Kalpana. And probably the two ghazals in Lal Quila (Na kisiki aankh ka noor hoon and Lagta nahi hai dil mera) ended Talat’s dominance in that genre.
As I’ve said before, there is a fair amount of subjectivity in selecting your favourite voice. This, to a large extent, depends on your personal likes and dislikes. Among Bengalis, if you include both Hindi and Bengali songs, the favourite male voice is one of the following: Manna, Kishore, Hemanta or Rafi. Some in the older generation still swear by Pankaj Mullick and Debabrata Biswas. But if you restrict yourself to only Hindi songs, it will be either Kishore or Rafi, with the younger generation probably preferring Kishore and the older generation Rafi. Manish made a very interesting observation about the younger generation being much more aware of the Amitabh Bachchan songs than the Dilip Kumar songs. This is called the recency effect and Kishore has a big advantage here. The real test would be 25 years from now when Lata, Asha and (less so) Kishore wouldn’t have such an advantage over Rafi. In my mind, I know which two would be fighting for the title of the “best singer” but I don’t want to start another nasty debate.
I personally feel that Kishore’s voice was terrific during the 1965-76 perod. There were always some rough hues but I think that made the voice more attractive. I have no problems in conceding that he was the king during the 1971-75 period. In the 80s, he may have lost some of the innate sweetness and crispness he had in his voice, but given the quality of the competition then, he could easily rule the charts. In a couple of Bengali songs from the mid 80’s, his voice definitely sounded quite rough (”hnere” in Bengali). But it would be fair to point out that Rafi’s voice in 1980 was also nowhere near what it used to be in the 60s, something that Rafi fans would be reluctant to admit.
As far as voice is concerned, a large number of people in the Marwari community of Kolkata used to prefer Mukesh to Rafi or Kishore. I personally like the voices of all the great singers, but in terms of male voice, my No. 1 favourite has always been Rafi and female voice it has been Geeta. As a singer, Lata may be much greater than Geeta, but in terms of voice alone, she is my favourite. To each one his own!
May 26th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
Singer123, I don’t think we should read too much into this “Rafi playbacked for Kishore” thing. Kishore’s fans also keep unnecessarily repeating that Kishore was too busy acting so he didn’t have time to sing. Come on, a talent like Kishore would have definitely liked to sing his own songs. There are two factors at play here. First and foremost, Kishore genuinely adored Rafi; I wouldn’t have been surprised if Kishore gave Rafi the chance to playback for him some of his own compositions in the 80s were Rafi alive then. There was a great deal of camraderie among the male singers in that generation. Second, if you consider a film like Raagini, where Rafi playbacked for Kishore, the MD was O. P. Nayyar, who once famously remarked, “Without Rafi there would be no OP”. On top of that, the song “Man more bawra” was semi-classical in nature; other than RD or Bappi, most MDs would prefer Rafi for such songs.
Kishore’s ultimate ambition was to make SD sing under his baton, which remained unfulfilled! Rafi, of course, sang Kishore’s composition for a rupee.
May 27th, 2007 at 8:34 am
P. Haldar wrote:”In a couple of Bengali songs from the mid 80’s, his voice definitely sounded quite rough (”hnere” in Bengali). But it would be fair to point out that Rafi’s voice in 1980 was also nowhere near what it used to be in the 60s, something that Rafi fans would be reluctant to admit.
As far as voice is concerned, a large number of people in the Marwari community of Kolkata used to prefer Mukesh to Rafi or Kishore”
–Mukesh is very popular in Gujarat. He has sung some very good bhajans in Gujarati. If you take a poll among Gujaratis, especially those of the 1960s generation, I won’t be surprised if he tips Rafi or Kishore in popularity.
I agree that Rafi in the 1980s (or rather 1980) was nowhere near the Rafi of the 60s, but the quality of songs had gone down as well. But in 1979-1980 the LP-Rafi combination was clearly way ahead of any other MD-singer combo in for the period. Some of my Rafi favorites during 1979-1980:
1. Hum to chale pardes (Sargam,LP)
2. Aab yeh jaana ke (Ladies Tailor, LP)–>here the vocal quality was comparable to the 60s
3. Aashaon ki sawan mein (Aasha, LP)
4. Chalo re doli (Jaani Dushman, LP)
5. Kaali ghata chhayi (Kaali ghata, LP)
6. Jaanewalon ka gham (Kaali Ghata,LP)
7. Tu is tarah zindagi mein (Aap to Aise na the, Usha Khanna)
8. Simti si yeh ghadiyan (Chambal Ki Kasam, Khaiyyam)–>again comparable to 1960s
9. Tere siva na kisika banooga (Professor Pyarelal, Kalyanji Anandji)
10. Dard-e-dil (Karz, LP)
11. Maine poocha chand se (Abdullah, RD)
12. O meri chorni (Kaatilon ki kaatil, Kalyanji Anandji)–>peppy number a glaring proof that age permitting, Rafi would have ruled even in late 80s with amir Khan like heroes.
13. Arey sambhalo mere yaaron (Khuda Kasam, LP)
14. Yeh aapne kya kar diya (Khuda Kasam, LP)
—————————————————–
See I have left out the popular numbers of Dostana, Shaan, Naseeb….Add those and you will get the dominant singer of 1979-80 by miles.
May 27th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Sudip, sorry for the typo; I meant 1975, not 1980. By 1980 Rafi’s confidence was back and his voice was getting closer and closer to that of his in the 60s. Thanks for providing the list of songs during the 79-80 period; I particularly like Tu is tarah zindagi mein shamil hain, Dard-e-dil dard-e-jigar, Maine poochha chand se and Simti hui ye ghadiyan. There is a Rafi-Lata duet in Kala Patthar, “Baahon mein teri…” where Rafi and Lata both sound very good (in this song Rafi’s voice approaches his 60’s voice). Kishore had a major hit in this Rajesh Roshan-composed film, “Ik rasta hai zindagi”. I also like Kishore’s songs in Yaraana, something you may disagree with. Again, the songs are sung in a slightly heavier and coarser voice, but I think he purposely did that considering that they were meant for Amitabh. There’s a song of Rafi’s from Poonam that was released after this death: “Mohabbat rang layegi”. I really like that song. Rafi also did a pretty good job singing for Dev Anand in Man Pasand, “Logon ka dil”, almost a decade after he sang for the actor in Gambler.
All in all, the 80s would have brought out the best in Kishore and Rafi, with LP, RD, RR and KA competing for the top spot. And among all the possible combinations, the one that I was looking forward to most was the RD-Rafi one, probably because of the range that both could provide and because of my own biases.
May 27th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
i don’t know why in the website dedicated to yoodleeeyoo such a worse discussion is going on kishore kumar and nobody is able to give fact about him.
let me put some point
1.kishore was a singer who when started singing for a actor then he become superstar and when he left hi he become flop
like in case of amitabh bachaan rajesh khanna, anil rishi and many more
2. if any body is discussing about the fact that he had not sang for many music directors then he shoud know that laxmikant pyarelal choose him to replace mohd. rafi
bappi lehri rajesh roshan and even anu mallik got rise from his singing.
he was a star creator nobody created him a star
3. it’s very easy to say that rd choose kishore that’s why kishore was famous. but if take in different side u will fnd no male voice song of rd could be fulfilled by other singer. kk was not his choice but its mandatory for him. as if he composed song for 1942 love story then again he used kishore school singer kumar sanu.
4. no doubt that mohd. rafi style of singing give good songs but kishore kumar style put a song to such a level that it become eternal
if you compare eternal hits give by only singer who use kk style then it is much more than rafi style of singer. like in case of abhijit and kumar sanu compared to sonu nigam and udit narayan.even new singer like babool kk and shaan used his style (style of heart)
5. on selling rafi’s fan has to accept the fact that they far behind kishore as every albums of old songs has 60-70% share of kk
6. if u go on classical then u shouldn’t compare them with lata and mohd. rafi as they are also tiny in comparison to gangubai hangal and bade gulam ali saab.
bollywood playback singing is for common mass and here no doubt kk was always greater than lata and rafi
7.also he could put more emotion in songs as he was a great actor
8.if u go on prize then u should know that gandhi never got nobel peace prize but it does not mean that he was not there. he was above any leader of his time.we kk fan consider him god and god never need bharat ratna.
if u rafi or lata fan have a prize for ever singer then u can give him
also remember one thing this the one aspect of this legendry
Debates can go on him for best actor, comedian, music composer and personality..
9. singing is not for analyzing that it is made of this raga or that taal but it’s for enjoying and in this aspect we kk fan can easily say that no body can beat him
10.some body in this discussion put an absurd comment that rafi can sing kk song but kk can’t . I want to ask either they got call of rafi from heaven.
Nobody can say this type of thing. First music director used to say that ur voice is not for singing kk but he proved
May 27th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
Prashant thanks dost. Finally we have someone here to write something decently from KK fans’ side
May 27th, 2007 at 11:12 pm
Prashant:
On your first point, Amitabh’s strategy to overtake Rajesh Khanna was to steal Kishore Kumar. Amitabh Bachchan would not have risen in the ranks so quickly if it wasn’t for KK. He would be significantly reduced i.e. Amitabh wouldn’t be Amitabh without the voice of KK and the two matched either PERFECT - no one could replace KK for Amitabh - not even Rafi - despite giving him song great playback like in Dostana or Naseeb. Amitabh’s movie Mukadar Ka Sikandar - I enjoyed it only because of Kishore’s songs particuarly “O Saathi Re.” Kishore carried that movie else it was crap. Dostana was trite and predictable but the song of Rafi and Kishore made it a super hit.
Second point: I still feel that majority of the music directors had Rafi as first choice. In fact, I’ll expand on this and say that a great reason for why I prefer Rafi over Kishore is BECAUSE FOR ME, Rafi got better songs and more songs. My favorite MDs are SJ, LP, and KA. The favorite singers of SJ and LP was Rafi. If Kishore sang some of Rafi’s numbers - they’d be great songs in their own ways. A Kishore rendition IMO would unlikely overtake a Rafi rendition but it would be GREAT. For example, the song Tum Bin Jaon Kahan, I personally don’t clearly prefer one over the other - - each has advantage disadvantage (yodel vs crisp voice). Both versions are great. RDB and SDB are great composers but they are not my favorites. If Kishore had sang more numbers for SJ (my favorite) - the gap of liking between him and Rafi for me would decrease for me. The MDs, singers, and actors ALL needed each other. As pointed out before, death of Jaikishan in 1971 was a big blow to Rafi. Rafi sang ~5000 songs where KK sang ~3100 songs.
This makes me jump to your point 10: There are some songs of Rafi that Kishore could not sing. A KK fan commented that he didn’t care if KK did not sing “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale.” FAIR ENOUGH. There are some songs where KK does not have the a high enough vocal range (he’d sound strained trying to do “Ae Mohabbat Zindabad” from Mughal E Azam or even the simple song “Bura Mat Suno where there are moments Rafi has to go high pitch). Most KK fans will agree that Rafi had a wider vocal range and this immediately makes KK unable to render some Rafi numbers. Additionally, you cannot expect KK to do a qawali with proper alaaps or do classical numbers as well as Rafi when they REQUIRE classical training!
Third point: Bear in mind that Mohammed Rafi was supposed to sing the songs of Aradhana. Rafi could sing any song of RDB and do it just as well. HOWEVER they would still not have the same impact as KK because…the public became desensitized to Rafi after 20 years of dominance - they needed a break and a fresh voice IMO and KK provided that. They needed fresh kind of music and RDB provided. More importantly, KK was GREAT and different from Rafi and this served well with a BREAK from Rafi and could also appeal to a different audience. I think the song “Koi Haseena” and “Holi Ke Din” would have done much better under Rafi than Kishore and the soundtrack of Sholay wasn’t as popular. Nevertheless, the songs of RDB not suprisingly better suited KK. So while I conclude that KK was the right choice for KK, it wasn’t purely on sheer merit (as opposed to needing something fresh and different).
Point 4: That is PURELY opinion. My favorite singer is Udit Narayan. For me, Rafi songs were ETERNAL. This depends on the choices of the fan.
Point 5: I’d say KK is enjoying the recency effect. Coincidentally, I was born in 1985 and I know of Rafi because he did playback for Amitabh in 1980 movies. I became introduced to Rafi mostly from 3 songs: John Johny Janardan, Salamat Rahe Dostana, and Kaun Kisiko Band Sakega (Kaalia). Had Rafi not voiced for Amitabh, it may have been longer before I became acquainted with my favorite singer. KK, of course, was THE voice for Amitabh and since Amitabh is still active and people are ACTIVELY aware of his greatness - people are more ACTIVELY aware of KK and that is why KK is more popular among younger people. The real test will come 20 years from now. According to HMV record company, Rafi sells more. Do you have proof of your statement?
6. Maybe. I always liked Rafi over specialists in classical like Manna Dey because of his inhernetly superior, melodious voice. That is why I like the qawaalis of Rafi better than Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan mainly because of Rafi’s superior voice although Nusrat is of course more specialized and more famous for it. As for KK being better in playback - again that is only your opinion. I disagree.
7. Whole heartedly agree that KK could put emotion into the song. Definitely. However, Rafi was great in his own right and he TOO could put emotion into songs. As one small example (not to be generalized), in the song Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara - Rafi had more emotion for me. In fact, some will say that a handful of songs KK THROATED whereas with Rafi, majority of songs seemed to come from the heart. Classifying a song as “emotional” is clear but subjective nevertheless so it is crude to say but I’d wager Rafi has had more emotional numbers than KK as he sang almost twice the number of different songs as KK. I disagree with you.
8. Agreed.
9. I agree to that singing is art. In fact, I think RDB once said, when comparing KK and Rafi, that Rafi was technically perfect but KK did not follow the rules and found a way to enthrall audience RDB said Rafi was Ivan Lendl whereas KK was John McEnroe. Of course, RDB knows more about music than I but I do think Rafi could enthrall the audience with songs like “Yahoo!” or “Hum Kaale Hain To”. And I agree that KK belongs in the hearts of KK fans and that no one can replace him. He is great in his own way.
May 28th, 2007 at 12:22 am
Prshant is the latest addition to the number of KK fans who try to defend with the argument of popularity. Honestly, I think Rafi is more popular if you consider all over India and all age groups. I know of several KK fans who converted to Rafi once they started having grey hair..This hold good for Babul Supriyo, Shaan as well.. As they get more into Bollywood, they understand who is the king and they start singing Rafi songs..
Even then, we the Rafi fans would try to analysze with quality and not with quantity. If cheap popularity is a measure of art, then pornographic magazines are better than Tagore’s literary works..When the market invades art, it is the end of art.
Rafi could cater to both cheap popularity and the classical taste without resorting to any gimmick or gizmo..That makes him universal.
And who says that someone who has a good ear for classical music does not enjoy it from the heart?? Enjoyment has different forms, some are more esoteric. If ignorance is a virtue, then as I said playboy magazine is a better art form than Tagore.
May 28th, 2007 at 1:27 am
I see what you’re saying.
However, I too think popularity is a great indicator of greatness, so long as there isn’t some other factor that is distorts things beyond reason.
Clearly, the great Kishore Kumar, his songs, and the work of RDB were great entities and it is silly to even try to make an analogy with Playboy Magazine IMO. I do understand though that you were merely trying to explain a concept.
I do think Rafi is comparably popular to Kishore.
May 28th, 2007 at 1:36 am
I thought I might as well stay here since P. Haldar and Sudip have also stayed. I would like to comment on Prashant’s points:
Point 1: In regards to making a superstar, Rafi made much more actors than Kishore did, Kishore has a hand in the careers of Rajesh Khanna and Amitabh, but if you look at the list of Rafi there is Biswajeet, Joy Mukherjee, Sanjay Khan, Dharmendra, Dilip Kumar, Rajendra Kumar, and a whole host of others. You mention when KK stopped singing for Rishi Kapoor he became a flop, if you notice after Bobby KK took over after SS as Rishi’s voice and then post Laila majnu, Rafi became the voice or Rishi and that pair gave so many hits, so can you truly say after KK stopped singing, Rishi became a flop, I doubt it.
Point 2: LoL L-P replaced Rafi with Kishore is really hilarious. I am amused at where these facts are coming from. L-P’s number one singer was Rafi, they used Kishore to be partial.
Point 3: RD wanted to be different from the rest, which is why he needed a new voice and KK was perfect for his compositions. Rafi also suited his songs very well.
Point 4: Discussing clones in pointless, Kishore could never reach Rafi’s level of singing because he never had the same qualities or range that Rafi had. Rafi covered a vast spectrum and a variety of genres, something Kishore was never able to achieve.
Point 5: LoL again record stats is hilarious, Rafi sells more than any artist, and his songs are more in demand than Lata’s songs, a fact mentioned by Laxmikant before his death. Recently there was a poll mentioning that Rafi sells more than Michael Jackson does among the younger age group in India.
Point 6: To each his own, Lata and Rafi are much above comprisons with any singer, they are the benchmarks of their field, recognized by the majority of musicians in the industry as the two greatest singers the indian film industry has ever had.
Points 7, 8 & 9: All subjective points, based on no facts, so ofcourse again to each his own. Its nice to see a Kishore fan appreciate his talents as he was a great singer.
Point 10: A song is composed with a singer in mind so in that sense no singer can sing any other song by another singer, but referring to the comment made, in this case all it means is that Rafi had such a range that he could attempt with ease all types of songs that other singers sang. Whereas others cannot easily attempt Rafi songs because of the degree of difficulty associated with them.
I agree with Manish, Sholay would have been much better had Rafi been there, the fact is that the dialogue sold more than the music. Rafi is very popular among the younger crowd. The majority of MD’s used Rafi because he was the best in the business or else we would have seen history re-written differently.
May 28th, 2007 at 1:37 am
Prashant: Shant ho jao..
“some body in this discussion put an absurd comment that rafi can sing kk song but kk can’t . I want to ask either they got call of rafi from heaven.”
-Boss, for this we do not need rafi’s testimonial.
1. Kishore himself did not think he did justice to “Salaam-e-Ishq” (Muqaddar Ka Sikandar” and “Waada tera Waada” (Dushman). In these cases, the saviors were the actors. Both Amitabh and Rajesh’s voice needed Kishore. I personally think Kishore sang them well. But we don’t know if the Music directors wanted those the way they got.
2. Kishore had to shy away from Lata’s version of “mere Naina saawon bhadon”. His version does not have the haunting classical high pitch strains.
3. “Humen tumse pyar kitna” (Kudrat) had to be simplified for Kishore. To anyone who understands music the Parveen Sultana version was way better. Rafi never shied away from any version, however tough. Kalyanji once mentioned that Rafi was the only singer (not even Lata) where they did not have to think whether he can actually sing the song.
4. Nafrat Ki duniya (Haathi Mera Saathi) had to go Rafi’s way after 5 takes by Kishore. LP mentioned this number of times. In this case, even Rajesh’s presence could not save KK.
5. In Raagini, it is well known that SJ thought the songs were not “Kishore’s cup of tea”.
6. In “Pagey Ghungroo” (Namak Halal) the alaap had to be rendered by Ustaad Dilshad Khan. There was not a single song in rafi’s lifetime where alaap had to be rendered by someone because Rafi could not do it.
Just 10 points do not make you any more logical than the KK fans out here. I can provide 10 points for each of your 10 points.
Just a small clarification to KK fans: I love KK. I play KK in my car stereo. But extrapolating that to say he is the best singer of all time is ridiculous.
May 28th, 2007 at 2:11 am
Rafi onwards from 1979-82 created a huge blitskerg of melodies. If he had lived I am sure it would have continued.
The LP-Rafi combo was indeed great, many hits during that particular period as was the case from 1963 onwards. Rafi and RD was a big miss fter 1980 as P. Haldar had mentioned. One of Rafi’s best latter day composers was Rajesh Roshan, they had a lot of hits as well from 74-80.
May 28th, 2007 at 7:42 am
Here’s an excellent rendition of a Rafi song by Kishoreda. This song is GREAT in its own way, I don’t think the Rafi version overtakes this nor does the Kishore version overtake Rafi’s. Both are full of emotion and backed by great voices. Make sure you have real player:
http://songs.kishorekumar.org/03_MANARE_TU_KAHE_NA.ram
There are some that will pick one version over the other but IMO both are too good to really say. I wish Kishore had some more Rafi songs.
May 28th, 2007 at 8:52 am
Prashant: on point 3, Kumar Sanu was a great singer and I actually think he could hold his ground with three favorite songs of mine against any singer: “Tujhe Dekha” (suprise!), “Kisi Roz Tumse” (Pardes 1997) and “Yeh Kaali Kaali Ankhein” (Baazigar 1993). I’ve knowingly left out some other gems but these three are my favorite Sanu songs. It is unfair to call Sanu a COMPLETE subset of Kishore - he did eventually adapt into his own. I also think that another great singer could not OVERTAKE Sanu in those three songs.
Nevertheless, I think Rafi would have sung the songs of “1942 A Love Story” much much better than Kumar Sanu.
I also find it striking that you refer to KK’s style as “singing from the heart” against Rafi when indeed I feel it was Rafi who almost always sounded like he was singing a song from his heart and sometimes KK throated a song (maybe because his schedule was so busy).
BTW…my new favorite duet of Rafi&Kishore: “Chor Sipahee” 1977
Many times I see a duet of Rafi and Kishore and struggle to CLEARLY proclaim the better singer. Sure, Rafi wins more for me but the gap isn’t significant. This goes to show, at least for me, that I like Rafi a lot more because he was given better songs. Both did an excellent job for “Chor Sipahee” my new favorite, and my childhood favorite being Salamat Rahe Dostana.
Part of the reason I’m particuarly motivated in this thread is because I missed commenting on the debate for the article “SRK wants to make a movie about KK” and I felt some KK fans were saying some unjustified things.
May 28th, 2007 at 12:20 pm
There is no comparission between kk and rafi. Both were masters of their fields and also there was no silly competition between them both respected each other. I only said that if on is a jem and other is diaomond.
May 28th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
There is no comparission between kk and rafi. Both were masters of their fields and also there was no silly competition between them both respected each other. I only said that if one is a jem and other is a diaomond.
May 28th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
Prashant, responding to point number 10, let me tell you that the comment is not absurd at all. Try a non-classical number like “Aaja aaja main hoon pyar tera” (some may say it’s based on raag pancham, though) and try to sing it in Kishore’s voice. Tell me if you could do it. RD could do it and that’s why he took upon the job himself in “Piya tu ab to aaja” and “Veera tara tara tara”; the only other male singer who could do it was …. (I am not using His name anymore, because, as Dron rightly pointed out, it invites the scorn of bigots). And, presuming you are a Hindu, listen to “Man tadpat hari darshan ko” (there’s a live version of the Aarohi program conducted by Naushad available on youtube). No Hindu saint would be able to have the effect that this singer had with two of the most important words in the Hindu lexicon: “Hari Om”. Why Kishore, you and I can also chant those two words; the question is will it have the desired effect? Of course, if you think Kishore’s Om Shanti Om is more divine, then there is no point arguing with you.
And don’t keep talking about classical singers being better in classical singing than Him; everyone knows that. But it is quite another thing to take raga-based songs, limited to a maximum of six minutes, to the masses; that’s what Naushad and He did with Baiju Bawra. Go to any village in Gujarat, UP or Bihar and even common people are aware of these songs. And, as Robin rightly pointed out, don’t keep saying that KK is more popular than …. His name is revered throughout the world and His appeal transcends regional, national, religious and ethnic boundaries.
You’ll have to also realise that we intruded into this site because His name and picture appeared in the article. We actually don’t have a feud with you guys; most of my fellow bhakts consider this to be an unnecessary distraction. The real battle is with someone else. Only time will heal the wounds we have suffered over the years, especially during the 1971-75 period, when the “matlabi” industry deserted the giant on whose shoulders it rode for 20 years and the way the hagiographers of the other singer (not your guru) are still trying to undermine Him.
May 28th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Hi MAST MAST,
He sang a song in your name too: Jawaniyan yeh mast mast. He sang this song 50 years ago for Shammi Kapoor in Tumsa Nahin Dekha and I’m sure you’ll like this song even today.
May 28th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Manish,
I am really glad that despite being born after the farishta passed away, you are His fan. May the tribe keep expanding.
I want to make a couple of points, though. First, don’t focus too much on those Kishore-…. duets; while some of them are ok, most of them are the “Chal shuru ho jaa fata faat” kind. If someone thinks Kishore sang better in those duets, I don’t give a damn. But please do not ever compare Kishore with Him in songs like “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare”. I’ve heard Kishore sing this gem on stage and I’ve refrained from making any comments on it, because I know he did it in good faith and in the memory of his friend and idol. Lata has also sung this song in her Shraddhanjali series but I’ve decided not to listen to it. Amzad Ali Khan played this song recently in an FM channel as a demonstration of one of the best renditions of classical-based songs ever portrayed on screen. And I’d simply request you to leave songs like “Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare” and “Man tadpat hari darshan” alone; these are highly spiritual songs and please do not attach any other singer’s name to these songs.
I have no problems if you compare your favourite singer’s rendition of “Chor sipahee” or “Salamat rahe dostana hamara” with Kishore’s. The competition should be fair — there should be a level playing field.
May 28th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Manish seems to be a blind follower of Rafi, a bit too blind really:)
If Rafi was as popular as Kishore I must say he must have his grey cells examined:) One can say IMO so and so is best singer.. for a million reasons one can like someone or not like someone.
For these million reasons the majority of people in this world like Kishore more and thats why they buy more of Kishore.. Kishore sells more than Lata, Asha, Mukhesh and yes Rafi put together.. This goes to show that when the whole world is wrong it indeed is right:) offc ourse there will be the one odd man like manish who will be an exception and exceptions prove the rule !
Most people feel the best singer is Kishore (for reasons as personal to them as can be) and thats the favourite singer of the world.. Though Rafi did rule till 1969 kishore has ruled happily ever after!
May 28th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
I also find it striking that you refer to KK’s style as “singing from the heart” against Rafi when indeed I feel it was Rafi who almost always sounded like he was singing a song from his heart and sometimes KK throated a song (maybe because his schedule was so busy)
>>> No singer has had a schedule more busy than Rafi and not one song was throated.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 28th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
now i want to quote some recent news from times of india
“Kishore da lives on - in music, remixes
14 Oct, 2002 l 0302 hrs ISTlIANS
NEW DELHI: Fifteen years after he died, Kishore Kumar’s unparalleled yodelling in Bollywood films continues to inspire countless remixes.
” Zindagi ko bahut pyar humne diya, maut se bhi mohabbat nibhayenge hum ,” he had once sung. He is doing just that - with his enchanting songs that continue to hold the present generation spellbound as were his countless fans during his heyday from the 1950s till the 1980s.
What better evidence of this than the latest remix, “Kishore Da n the Daddy Mix”. It’s been a bestseller ever since its release earlier this year.
So what is it that continues to make a Kishore song tug at the heart? Is it the timbre of his voice? His versatility? Or the empathy that came through as he sang?
It is perhaps a combination of all three. ”
according to some legendry (explained in kk biography)
“Kishore Kumar’s was the second golden male voice that the film industry produced. , the first being that of Kundan Lal Sehgal. Besides being a singer”
what i am trying to explain is the popularity of this legendry in this arena of 21st century.
also if u r going again on notes and raga then u should always admit the fact that they(lata mohd. rafi and kk) are nothing compared to classical legendry like gangu bai hangal bhimsen joshi pandit jasraj etc….
so bollywood singing is totally based on popularity not on the raga and notes. ragas are just used to give song popularity.how many songs of bollywood are totally based on a true raga very few all are derived from them. if raga is only criteria then hip hop , rock ,jazz , lok sangit doesn’t exist.
even on raga and taal if u ask any expert manna was far ahead from these three legendry but not got the golden voice . so he was not best….
May 28th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
Well said,a nice article,ofcourse Kishoreda is the all time greatest.
May 28th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
according to some legendry (explained in kk biography)
“Kishore Kumar’s was the second golden male voice that the film industry produced. , the first being that of Kundan Lal Sehgal. Besides being a singer”
>>>> Who is Rafi then???
May 28th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
Kishore sells more than Lata, Asha, Mukhesh and yes Rafi put together
>>>>>
This is wishful thinking and a wrong statistic. Give a call to HMV and ask them the question. If you are a man enough then come back to this site and give the answer.
Blind fans…..????
May 28th, 2007 at 10:00 pm
Kishore sells more than Lata, Asha, Mukhesh and yes Rafi put together
>>>>>
This is wishful thinking and a wrong statistic. Give a call to HMV and ask them the question. If you are a man enough then come back to this site and give the answer.
Blind fans…..????
May 28th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Dear prashant,
KK was good singer they should write about him but they never say that kk was the best bollywood singer but when then say about Mohd Rafi they said no words to say on the greatness of Mohd Rafi….
Do u think KK fans If there was no KK there was no RD or Rajesh Khanna or Mr Bachchan?but when Shammi Kapoor spoke about Mohd Rafihe said IF THERE WAS NO MOHD RAFI THERE WAS NO SHAMMI SAME SAID BY O N NAYAR and also great Naushand said Mohd Rafi was 50% of his music,SPB said when u listen to Mohd Rafi he think that he is not half singer…….
Dear KK fans if we say black colour is white it will not be white because black is black and white is white……..
May 28th, 2007 at 10:02 pm
Well said Manish Kumar, just heark kk’s ‘Man re tu kahe na…’, but he had failed totally to bring feelings as rafiji brought. Rafiji sang beautifully from his heart. Even lataji could not sing well this song.
May 28th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
“An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi & Kishore Kumar”. See here also it’s Rafiji’s name first than Kishore Kumar… so…!!!
May 28th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
MOHD RAFI IS THE GREATEST SINGER INDIA HAS PRODUCED INDIA MUST BE BE PROUD TO HAVE A SINGER LIKE MOHD RAFI WE SHOULD COMPARE RAFI WITH ANOTHER SINGER
HE HAS SUNG DIFFICULT SONG VERY EASILY HE WAS SO VERSATILE I REMENBER A CLASSICAL SONG FROM THE FILM MRIG KRISNA THE SONG TITLE IS NAW KALPANA IF ANYONE LISTEN TOTHE SONG HE WILL REALISE THE FORCE OF MOHD RAFI
SOME PEOPLE SAY THAT AFTER ARADHNA THE LEAN YEARS OF RAFI BEGAN I DONT AGREE WITH IT YOU KNOW HOW MANY HITS SONGS RAFI HAS DELIVERED FILM LIKE HEER RANJA WARIS HUMJOLI JAWAB SEEMA NAIHNA MEHMOOB KI MEHENDI AAN MILO SAJNA THE TRAIN HONEYMOON MILAP EKNARI DOROOP ROOP TERA MASTANA BENAAM JEEWAN MRITYU AAP AYE BAHAR AYEE LALLKAR GORA AUR KALA PARWANA AND MANY MORE ALL THESE FILM SONGS WAS HITS EVEN AFTER 1970 RAFI SUNG A HUGE NUMBER OF SONG FOR EXAMPLE FOR SHAMMI KAPOOR FOR THE JAWAN MOHABUTH HE SUNG FIVE SONG FOR SHASHI KAPOOOR HE SUNG SIX SONGS FOR THE FILM NATHC UTHA SANSAR IN LALLKAR THEIR ARE FOUR SONG AND MANY MORE IT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE THAT RAFI WAS OVERSHADOWERED BY KK HOW CAN WE FORGOT THE SONG FROM THE FILM SEEMA JAB BHI YE DIL UDHAS HOTA HAI I THINK THIS IS THE BEST SONG RAFI HAS SUNG IN THE SEVENTIES IN MY OPINOIN RAFI WSA THE THE GREATEST SINGER INDIA HAS EVER PRODUCED
IT WAS THE MEDIA WHO WROTE MANY ARTICLES OF KK FAVOUR EVEN FOR THE FILMFARE AWARD THE JURIES HAS DONE UNJUSTICE TO HIM . IN 1980 THREE SUPER HITS SONGS WAS NOMINATED COMPARE TWO FOR KK . KK GOT THE AWARD FOR HAZAR RAHEN THE SONG FROM THE FILM KARZ DARD E DIL WAS THE NUMBER ONE SONG IN 1980 EVEN AFTER RAFI DEATH KK GOT FOUR AWARD IN A ROW SHABBIR KUMAR SUNG MANY HITS SONG. ONE THING I DONT UNDERSTAND SAGAR TITLE WAS AWARDED IN 1986 SUCH AN EASY SONG SHOULD BE AWARDED ANYONE CAN SING IT EASILY
May 28th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
Prashant:
Since you talked genres, in how many of these can you place Kishore?
A. Classical/ Semi-classical
B. Thumris and Ghazals
C. Peppy/Rock
D. Soft romantic
E. Sad songs
F. Qawwali
G. Bhajans
F. Patriotic
G. Punjabi/Bhangra
H. Folk
Pls do the analysis yourself. We can take on from there.
Do not tell me what Kishore COULD HAVE done. Limit it to what he has done. For that matter one may argue Michael Jackson COULD HAVE sung ghazals. The reality is he HASN’T.
May 28th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Prashant,
Overall, I pick Mohammed Rafi as the #1 singer. His COMBINATION of voice quality, classical training, emotion and personality into a song, and sheer magic is unmatched. Some of those classical singers you mentioned probably are more skilled than Rafi, but they cannot match his melodious voice and so overall he trumps them. This is why I take Rafi over Manna Dey or Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.
Btw…anyone who says KK was the second golden voice after KL Saigal without mentioning Rafi must have been in outer space for 20 years after Saigal. Unlike Kishore and Lata, Rafi not only met with Saigal, he also sang with him. Saigal said to Rafi, “The keys to the kingdom are yours.” Rafi said the same to Kishore eventually.
May 28th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
The say that when you set to do something, the most important thing is that you LOVE what you’re doing. I absolutely love the songs of Rafi, Lata, and Kishore and enjoy discussing them - that is why I won’t have the keen knowledge of P Haldar but I’ll have enthusiasm for it. I’ll actually say that I’ve come to appreciate KK more after this thread after pouring my thoughts and rethinking some things and realizing.
I think the reason I compared Man Re with KK & Rafi is because I don’t have the intricate knowledge to appreciate the fine points of a song. For example, I once proclaimed that I like Sholay better than Mughal E Azam and someone went on to tell me that you had to be aware of the history and times of Mughal E Azam to pick up the nuances of humor or comedy etc. (and Sholay to depreciate it). Since I don’t have such nuances, I wasn’t able to CLEARLY discern between the two versions. I also addressed this because at some other site a KK fan mentioned it as a better rendition.
May 29th, 2007 at 1:23 am
Kishore’s advantages:
————————-
Kishore’s advantage (as clearly evident in this forum) was his image of “eccentric genius”. Nothing wrong with that, as long as we know how to dissociate such factors when we try to analyze singing abilities objectively.
This is the same reason why people rate:
1. Maradona/George Best higher than Pele (I also do, but leave out the “eccentricity” out of the equation)
2. Ritwick Ghatak over Satyajit Ray
3. McEnroe over Borg; Agassi over Sampras
Let’s face it guys-we all are fond of colorful characters and love to romanticize in the aura of eccentricity..ECCENTRICITY SELLS BIG TIME!
Eccentricity (Paglamo in Bengali) can add color to the persona, but has zilch to do with singing or the skill in question.
May 29th, 2007 at 1:43 am
dear sudip
this is my answer
1. classical (Kabhi bebasi ne maara hoo kabhi bekasi ne maara …from the movie Alag Alag)
2. semi classical (Woh shaam kuch ajeeb thi-semi classical)
3.rock (disco 82, disco 84 actually i don’t remember actual wordings but many song by bappi lehri)
4. ghazal (”Na-Ashna Har Rahguzar
Na-Meharbaan Sab Ki Nazar
Jaayein Toh Ab Jayeein Kidhar, Main Aur Meri Awaargi”
It’s called Awaargi. Written by Javed Akhtar, it was first used in the movie Duniya. Music, of course, was by RD. Some 10 years later Javed used the same ghazal in his album with Nusrat fateh ali khan saab
also
tum aa gaye ho is ghazal type where he suppressed lata ji
5. soft romantic ( i don’t think that any body can overcome him in this field
but let me put some song like
chukar mere man ko from yarana
chehra hai ya chand khila and many more
6. sad songs ( why u r putting this type as he was really genius in it
Mere mehboob qayamat hogi,
Main shayar badnaam
dil aisa kisine mera toda
7.folk
the best folk khaike paan banaras wala
8.he used to sing bhajans in begali (this time its not in my mind but i will tell u later bhajans of hindi also)
9.
now tell me any singer who can sing these songother than love songs
sad songs (as i discussed earlier so not making it point here) better than him
1. inspiration (ruk jana nahi … and many more)
2.Philosophical (jindagi ka safar…….
aane wala pal jaane wala he..)
3. cool or moody song(eena meena deeka….)
4.duets with lata
5.and last but not least yeodleeeyoooo type song
May 29th, 2007 at 1:57 am
Dear Unknow1, Ziyaad, Sudip, Manish Kumar, I am really proud of you all.
Rafi Saheb is and will always be #1.
May 29th, 2007 at 1:57 am
Famous comment on kk
• .Lata-Kishoreda was a samprn kalakar.He could sing any type of song easily.I have no words to praise this musical genius who is an institution by himself.
• Asha-Kishoreda is the best male voice in Indian films.I have got greatest pleasure singing with him.Whenever I think of playback singers,I think about my elder sister and Kishoreda.
• Pyarelal-Kishore Kumar was a brilliant singer,performer and comedian.Many of today’s singers like Sanu,Abhijeet,Babul Supriyo,Vinod Rathode & even Shaan tries to copy him.
• Anandji-Kishoreda was a great singer,probably the only complete singer.He was a great human being also.We owe 90% of our success to him.
• R.D- Kishoreda is the best male voice in our industry.He can sing classical songs better than any singer.The range,modulation & flexibility in his voice is best
• Bapi Lahiri-Kishoremama is my all time favourite singer.He has sung so many songs for me.The range in his voice was terrific.He is also the greatest performer in the world.
• Anu Malik-He was God.He has sung allmost 100 songs for me.
• Kumar Sanu-Kishore Kumar is my favourite,my guru,like millions of others.His expressions and throwing was great.The way he has paved his way as the favourite singer in the hearts of many without learning music proves he is the best.
• Abhijeet-If now a survey is taken,it will be seen that Kishoreda is still the no 1 to 10 among all playback singers,both male and female
• Alka Yagnik-Everybody in my family is his crazy fan.If you see the C.Ds and cassetes in my car and house,you will see that there is an overwhelming majority of two names-Kishore Kumar & Lata Mangeshkar.
• Rajesh Khanna-Kishore Kumar is my favourite singer. I owe the majority of my success to him.
• Big B-I feel privileged & blessed to give lip to Kishoreda’s songs.
FACTS
• Salil Chowdhury,Hemant Kumar used Kishore more?KK had so many hits with R.D,S.D,K-A,L-P,Bapi Lahiri,Rajesh Roshan
• He has also sang for Naushad in a 1975 film.
• .He was also the voice of Dev,Rishi Kapoor,Randhir Kapoor,Shasi Kapoor,Sanjeev Kumar,Kishore Kumar,Mithun etc.
.
May 29th, 2007 at 2:13 am
really bapan u r right i got information from the book
also it is right that kishore fans are 40000 more than mohd. rafi9not counting smaller groups)in orkut
kishore(largest club in orkut ) 69579
rafi ( largest club in orkut ) 10967
lata (largest club in orkut ) 15928
mukesh (largest club in orkut ) 3064
asha (largest club in orkut ) 2786
manna (largest club in orkut ) 2443
udit (largest club in orkut ) 2231
puncham da (largest club in orkut ) 8414
fact is clear he still got the largest pool of fans than any other
if majority is liking then it got some point
May 29th, 2007 at 5:16 am
Well said Manish Kumar, just heark kk’s ‘Man re tu kahe na…’, but he had failed totally to bring feelings as rafiji brought. Rafiji sang beautifully from his heart. Even lataji could not sing well this song.
>>>>>> If some KK fans are living in fanrasies, I am soory to say that some Rafi fans need to relax.
As I said before you guys and gals know a spec of the facts and the truth. KK sang this song as a mark of rememberance and respect in the memory of Rafi and not for commercial purposes and here i see you have ven started to compare his shradanjali. This is disappointing. Lata also sang it as a Shardanjali and she said ” These songs of Rafi are very hard to sing and now when I look back I can see he made it sound so easy.
So please STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 29th, 2007 at 5:24 am
P. Haldar,
I remembered the comment you made on SDB mentioning how Rafi and Kishore were his first and second reserves. A good friend posted the article in which that quote appeared. The article is on SDB from Filmfare, a Nov 1975 issue written by Raju Bharatan. I would like to provide the extract:
———————————
“His fine sense of rhythm was derived from his experience as an ace tennis player. “Tennis is one game that requires you to be extra alert”, he use to say. “It helped keep my reflexes sharp. It taught me that in music as in tennis, there are two ’serves’. If the first ’serve’ fails, in the second you do not tryt something so flashy. Sometimes my first ’serve’ click - as in ‘Hum bekhudi mein’ and ‘Kya se kya ho gaya’. At other times, the second ’serve’ came into play. In Aradhana I tried both serves - Rafi and Kishore. This time the second ’serve’ click. I had always had Kishore in reserve. Now he became my main singer.”
If Kishore so emerged as the Voice of Youth, it was because Dada had discovered in his music the secret of external youth. “Aradhana may have mark my comeback, but the music of Guide remains my pride and joy” he mentioned. “The film’s theme offered me maximum scope. I found no limitation and I had our two best singers: Lata and Rafi.”
———————————
It is clear SDB thought Rafi was the greatest along with Lata, and he wasn’t the only one. Also, SD mentioning ‘first’ serve could be because his favourite was Rafi although he also held Kishore in high regard as well. I notice a shift in SDB’s music, especially his rhythm post 1970. What is the reason for this ?. What rhtyhm patterns did SDB base his music on, was it Rabindra Sangeet or folk rhythms ?. Sudip, you can answer this question as well.
You mentioned “Badi Sooni Sooni Hai”, it was RDB responsible for the recording, a song meant completely for Rafi, as well as the whole Abhimaan theme. SD knew the gift of Rafi and used it to great effect. It was RD who missed out in using Rafi to the maximum, although there are numerous gems from that combo.
Also SD may have thought KK’s time had come which is why he switched over in the 70’s but he gave Rafi gems during that time as well. His ill health combined with Pancham taking over his recordings also tilted the balance in favour of Kishore.
I think SDB was a complete MD, very talented, one of the all-time greatest. He was as good in composing classical based songs as he was in trendy music. He was also the master at folk music, I don’t think anyone could reach him at this theme.
What are your views on all of this as well as SD compared to Pancham who was also a talented musician ?.
May 29th, 2007 at 6:36 am
Well said dron saheb. Kumar sanu has sang many of KK songs, how preposterous would KK fans find when Sanu fans claim he has sung better than KK.
It seems these KK fans are running the “Kishore bachao Andaolan”. They keep rambling one thing over and over again. If there is any conviction and belief then say it once instead of repeating the same stale script.
Lip service costs nothing. If you really love KK then donate to this site so that it can improve and survive and save the KK home that is in ruins and ignored. Shame on you.
KK was a rich man and I guess he must have left lots of money behind him, why does not Amit Kumar use that money to repair the home.
He goes on rambling in every show how his father was the number 1 singer from 69 onwards, something which the fans have taken off him in their ramblings and “Kishore Bachao Andolan”.
I am amazed to see the level of insecurity in Amit and other KK fans that they need to resort to such hackned comments every time.
Further they need to demonise Rafi and ignore his unmatched achievements in order to make KK look better. Another proof of their insecurity.
Discuss the songs of KK and his singing takents rather than demonise proven legends like Rafi, the day you start putting this into action, that would be the day when you would stop insulting the fond memory of Kishore.
So kindly stop this “Kishore Bachao Andolan”
May 29th, 2007 at 8:39 am
Joy,
I certainly am an ardent fan of Rafi but I wouldn’t say I’m blind. I acknowledge that…
KK’s voice suited Amitabh even better than Rafi’s
KK rose to the top in 1969 over Rafi by merit and on fair grounds
KK held his ground against Rafi on several occasions
KK is more popular amongst the youth than Rafi, at least right now
Rafi’s voice showed signs of wear in 1980 and that had he lived on (wish he did), he’d been similar to Lata. Excellent up till the end of the 1980s, a shell of himself in the mid 90s but still a force to be wreckoned with, and a poor version of himself in 2000 like Lata.
I ALSO say that from time to time I get desensitized Rafi after listening so much and need a fresh voice like the public did in 1969 and then I resort to Kishore. I’ve said before that Rafi and Kishore enhance each other by serving as fresh alternatives to one another.
Not sure about this last point, while Rafi unmatched versatility and could amazingly modulate his voice, Kishore’s deeper voice sounded a bit tougher at times and suited the action hero. Whenever Rafi did playback for an action hero, his melodious voice didn’t have violence in it whereas a deep voice could convey that. If Parvarish was action packed movie, Rafi’s melodious voice sounded peaceful and soothing whereas Kishore’s deep voice sounded confrontational (and indeed, in the duet “Hum Premi Prem Karna Chahe” Amitabh-Kishore are CONFRONTING Vinod Khanna who tries to appear innocent).
May 29th, 2007 at 8:46 am
Additionally, I consider myself enthusiastic about Rafi and Kishore (which in the most important thing in an occupation etc.) but I will say I have very little knowledge (and that doesn’t bother me, except maybe wish from time to time that with better knowledge I could appreciate songs better or KNOW of other songs that I love).
Both the careers of Rafi and Kishore are like galaxies. Each singer’s career is ENORMOUS, and I’ve probably heard ONLY 500 of Rafi’s songs. Seeing that he has done over 5000 different songs, I have hardly hit 10% of the universe and there is MUCH MORE for me to see.
Same thing with Kishore - he’s done over 3000 songs and I have probably heard only 500 songs (of course, as a child I heard him more than Rafi since he was a more common voice to Amitabh although my favorites were Rafi numbers). I have a long way to go. This sort of really takes away my authority on statements about Kishore or Rafi but from post #1 I said that my views are WITHIN ME and that they don’t supersede the views of others. Within my limited knowledge, whatever I say or conclude, is based on attempted logic, reason, and honest opinion.
At the end of the day, music is free for all and you can appreciate it (even if not to the fullest extent) even without so much knowledge.
May 29th, 2007 at 8:52 am
That’s why I refrain from proclaiming Rafi’s BEST songs or Kishore’s BEST songs (because it is subjective, it is TOUGH to single out, and I’ve heard only a fraction of songs).
While I initially started off as Rafi #1 clearly and Kishore second, I’ve changed my view. While I still see Rafi as my favorite and the best (based on all factors discussed before), I do feel I’d like Kishore more if he had the benefit of my favorite MDs.
A great portion of comparison between Rafi and Kishore is like comparing apple to orange - you just can’t pick one over the other and that is what I say for many duets or similar songs they have done. For smaller portion like vocal range, popularity amonst MDs, etc. I do make easy comparison.
I very much like both Rafi & Kishore - both needed each other IMO.
I’m also an ardent admirer of today’s modern singers mainly Udit & Alka and think it is unfair to throw these guys out of consideration and say that they can’t compare to past legends. Udit’s voice belongs up there with the best and same with Alka.
May 29th, 2007 at 9:50 am
Famous comment on kk
• .Lata-Kishoreda was a samprn kalakar.He could sing any type of song easily.I have no words to praise this musical genius who is an institution by himself.
$$$ Lata - A singer like Rafi saheb comes once in a while, he filled the void left by KL Saigal.
• Asha-Kishoreda is the best male voice in Indian films.I have got greatest pleasure singing with him.Whenever I think of playback singers,I think about my elder sister and Kishoreda.
$$$ Asha has said Sanju dutt sings as well as Kishore –you wanna quote this too. She is sanile.
• Pyarelal-Kishore Kumar was a brilliant singer,performer and comedian.Many of today’s singers like Sanu,Abhijeet,Babul Supriyo,Vinod Rathode & even Shaan tries to copy him.
$$$$$ LP : they swear by the greatness of Rafi. Pyarelal in a recent intterview. Rafi was way ahead everyone not only in his singing ability but also his ethics and kindness.
• Anandji-Kishoreda was a great singer,probably the only complete singer.He was a great human being also.We owe 90% of our success to him.
$$$$Kalyanji : Rafi had the most perfect voice and was technically the most correct singer. His songs for our films are very close to our hearts.
• R.D- Kishoreda is the best male voice in our industry.He can sing classical songs better than any singer.The range,modulation & flexibility in his voice is best
$$$$$LOL …RD had a bias, lets not go into that when everyone knows what SD Burman had to say about Rafi. RDB never said KK could sing classical songs better….this is hilarious. LOL>>>LOL>>> why did RD then ask Bhupendra and Mana to sing his semi classical tunes. Kishore was not equipped to sing classical…you know nothing, you are simply talking rubbish.
• Bapi Lahiri-Kishoremama is my all time favourite singer.He has sung so many songs for me.The range in his voice was terrific.He is also the greatest performer in the world.
$$$$ favorite singer, sure he was his mama after all..LOL
• Anu Malik-He was God.He has sung allmost 100 songs for me.
$$$$Anu Malik: I wanted Rafi sahab to sing my Poonam songs, he is the guru of singing.
• Kumar Sanu-Kishore Kumar is my favourite,my guru,like millions of others.His expressions and throwing was great.The way he has paved his way as the favourite singer in the hearts of many without learning music proves he is the best.
$$$$ yeah so what, aziz, anwar, shabbir, sonu,….udit …feel the same of Rafi
• Abhijeet-If now a survey is taken,it will be seen that Kishoreda is still the no 1 to 10 among all playback singers,both male and female
$$$$$ lol…..i am sure the survey will be done by KK fans like you within the Kishore bachap andolan club…who the heck is abhijit anyway.
• Big B-I feel privileged & blessed to give lip to Kishoreda’s songs.
$$$$$ BIg B: I did not sleep full night before the recording of the Naeeb song as I was so excited that i would be singing along a legend like Rafi.
$$$$$$$Naushad, OP Nyar, Usha Khaana, Ravi, Chtitragupta, Mana Dey, Mahendra Kapoor, Shankar Jailkishen, Madan Mohan, Rajesh Roshan, Roshan, SD Burman, Ananad Bakshi, Sonik Omi….the list is endless including Kishore Kumar, if ine reads what they have to say of Rafi, one could not only write a book but realise that singing starts and finishes at one point, the one and only Rafi.
May 29th, 2007 at 9:51 am
Dear Prashant, I thought some of Sudip’s questions were unnecessarily tough; other than C, D and E, I was afraid you wouldn’t be able to provide any answers. But your knowledge of music is amazing! You have been able to prove beyond doubt that KK is far superior to Rafi in not only pop/catchy songs, but also in classical songs, ghazals, bhajans, qawaalis, folk, philosophical, etc. And your idea of a soft romantic song: Chehra hai yah chand… And the best folk song: Khaike paan banaras-wala. Wow, what songs! God bless you.
May 29th, 2007 at 10:32 am
Prshant:
If you classify “Kabhi bebasi ne maara hoo kabhi bekasi ne maara” as a classical worthy of mention, then all “Disco Dancer” songs are ghazals by comparison..This song is typically played in tea stalls in Calcutta with loafers humming it to impress bystanders. Anyway, I was not talking of isolated songs..I was asking you to rate Kishore vis-a-vis Rafi in these genres. Clearly he is nowhere among the top 3 in Qawalis, classical, ghazals, patriotic, folks and bhajans. Rafi figures among top 3 in all categories.
And since you mentioned “Kabhi bebasi ne maara hoo kabhi bekasi ne maara” which to me was the worst rendition of this raaga till date, let me tell you Rafi had delivered the same raaga (Darbari Kannada) in exactly the same tune. The song is “Raha gardishon mein hardam” (Do Badan).
Please listen to the song and compare the smooth notes with the rough edges in your Alag Alag song; you will find the difference for yourself. Even if you have the faintest knowledge of music you will appreciate the high notes in the antras. For a change try to rectify and prove that you understand something about vocal music.
May 29th, 2007 at 10:43 am
Dear Manish,
I have already cited some of Rafi’s famous ghazals and classical songs. In the soft (not “hnere”) romantic category also, he was the king. Because you like SJ, I will cite three gems that Jai composed for Rafi:
1. Baharon phool barsao (Suraj)
2. Yeh mera prempatra kar (Sangam)
3. Teri pyari pyari surat ko (Sasural)
The first one is one of the greatest romantic songs of all time. Rafi personally liked this song a lot and used to sing it at every concert. The second was composed by Jai with his beloved Pallavi in mind. Listen carefully to how Rafi recites “Haseena likhoon ya dilruba likhoon, Hairan hoon ki is khat mein main kya likhoon” before he starts singing the actual song. Note especially how well he conveys his “hairani”. In the third song, which was also a major hit, note how he plays with the words “chashme buddoor”. Every word he used to utter was worth its weight in gold. Listen to how he enunciates “Hari Om” or “Man re” or “Dil Jhooma” (Diwana hua badal…). As far as technical perfection is concerned, Lata and he were on par (or unees-bees, depending on whom you talk to). But when it comes to placing emphasis on certain words in the lyrics, Rafi was way ahead of every other singer, including Lata. That is why you still see that 27 years after his death, new generations of listeners like you embracing him. In short, the Rafi magic continues.
Rafi added that extra touch to many other romantic songs. Listen to “Ek haseen sham ko” (Dulhan ek Raat ki - Madan Mohan) and see how he enunciates the word “sham”. Another great composition is OP’s “Aap ke haseen rukh pe” (Baharein Phir bhi Aayegi). Rafi’s stylized singing, along with a wonderful piano accompaniment, makes this song one of the best from the OP-Rafi combination. When you listen to and start appreciating the songs that I mentioned above, you’ll find that there is no need to listen to “Chehra hai ya chand” and songs of that ilk.
May 29th, 2007 at 11:45 am
actually sonali
we are not running kk bachao aandolan but u rafi fan are doing this.
reason kishore when start singing was no.1 (mukesh and rafi existed as playback singer then)and upto death was no.1 but when it come to rafi yes he was no. 1 after sehgal but BEFORE THE GREAT KISHORE.
i don’t know why you again go to the songs sang by rafi like “ye duniya ye mehfil”. of course its mastropiece but if i start saying that could rafi sing the classic of kk like”zindagi ka safar”,”rukh jana nahi”, “mera jeevan kora kagaz”,and many more inspirational and philosophical songthen it look like a typical bollywood hero singing and no such emotion will come out. but its totally ridiculous as it has not be happened then how to comment on such thing and if you still think so then tell that seriously
from ur heart can really rafi sing these song (inspirational Philosophical)
again somebody is challenging me in this discussion about no. of hits
so please man go to hmv t-series yash raj music and other you will be surprised to know that not kk not rafi not lata has highest no. of hits but its
ASHA JI who got maxm hits in his side. the person singing more song will be getting maxm hits. and in 1969 to 1986 kk was ruling the chart and nobody was in his competition.
also i would like tosay that don’t be aggresive as it’s just a discussion
so don’t put some absurd comment
May 29th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
P. Haldar,
Please write your views on the SDB extract I wrote earlier. Besides the RD-Rafi miss post 1980, another miss was SD-Rafi post 1976, what would the two masters have created then.
Manish,
Interesting analysis there, however I feel Rafi and Kishore definitely did not need eachother. They were poles apart as singers, there are many genres that Kishore could not attempt, which were a breeze for Rafi. In terms of voice and range the two are again very far apart. You mentioned their duets together, I feel it was always Rafi that sounded the more meledious of the two (as you mentioned). I also feel his voice never showed any signs of aging at any time.
You mention that you were born after Rafi saab’s death, I am also a part of that group, for me it is Rafi all the way, he is the first and last word in music. You will be surprised to know there are quite a few younger fans of the great legend. I also don’t think we should be comparing Rafi and Kishore by Amitabh. I don’t consider AB as the greatest actor even though he was very popular, and there were stars before and after him, he is just an apple in a big basket full of other apples.
Also, you mention Kishore’s rise on fair grounds, this is not true. A lot of luck went into it, as well as Rafi’s leave of absence for 8 months, and this has been mentioned before. However, there is a saying that give credit where it is due, and from Aradhana onwards, Kishore did prove himself as a great singer.
I also don’t think its fair to compare Udit or Alka to any legends, particularly Rafi and Lata as their standards are very high. Udit is good but there are far better singers than him and I don’t find his voice unique. Alka is great, has a lot of talent, hopefully she can maintain her voice for the future as recently I have been finding a bit of wear and tear in her singing, maybe she needs a break.
Prashant,
Your examples and views are distorted and not based on any fact. Please provide examples based on fact if this discussion is to go any further, all you are doing is presenting things out of thin air.
May 29th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Prashant,
I want to thank you for your enthusiasm and knowledge (I’m serious) of Kishore Kumar and your willingness to engage in this discussion.
In my personal opinion, Rafi & Kishore were excellent live performers - they were for real and sounded just as good live as they did in the studio. The same can’t be said for many singers.
I also think that Kishore Kumar was the greatest live entertainer of all time. I loved his antics on stage (where he plays with Bappi, does the impression of someone who’s lost his voice hahahahaha that had me rolling). My favorite KK performance is when he went to Wembley with Lata - some live versions were even better than the studio version!
Rest assured that you’re idol Kishore Kumar will never let you down because he was THAT GREAT. That’s how I feel about my favorite singer - Rafi.
Thanks again for your posts.
May 29th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
Zindagi Ek Safar Hai Suhana
You must not have heard the Rafi version of the song to say that he could not render that KK classic. In that song, Rafi’s voice was fuller and IMO had more emotion (then again he was doing a sad version). I had my South Indian friend who knows little Hindi listen to both and asked which voice was better. He said Rafi’s was fuller.
May 29th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
“Mohammed Rafi and Lata Mangeshkar were declared the best playback singers of the millennium while Majrooh Sultanpuri was bestowed with the honour of being the best lyricist”
read link: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20000109/nation.htm#2
‘Even after 25 years of his death, Mohammed Rafi remains immortal through his songs. Music director Laxmikant expressed surprise at the phenomenal demand for Rafi’s songs. `No other singer, not even Lata Mangeshkar, has been able to attract such tremendous following. It’s almost as if he were still alive,” he once said.”
Rafi’s unmatched tarck record:
read link :
http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/fr/2005/07/29/stories/2005072902280300.htm
Hopefully this will bring in some sense for those who simply type anything without thinking and knowing the widely accepted facts.
May 29th, 2007 at 8:46 pm
Kishoreda is the singer of the millenium,genius of the millenium,I know it from net.
May 29th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Anuj is definitely an “anuj” (baccha) as far as music goes. His primary source is the net. As someone mentioned before, it is the typical 20-25 year old fop that listens to Kishore and Himesh and uses the night club dance floors to make judgements on music. Most of them convert once they grow some grey hair and life becomes more than fun on the net.
It is good to see Kishore Kumar beat Charlie Chaplin for the genius of the millenium.
May 30th, 2007 at 1:23 am
No other topic will sell here than the comparison between
KK and the legend Mohd.Rafi…
This is becoming a bore subject….Waste; of precious time…
Let s discuss why Javed Akhtar is not releasing the cash
for the promised Kishore memorial in his hometown Khandwa…
I am eager to know why Leena Chandavarkar or Kishore son
Amit Kumar is not pulling out money from their accounts
and spending it for a fitting memorial for Kishore Kumar…..
Lets talk some creative things …… yaar…..
binu nair….
May 30th, 2007 at 3:28 am
There is no comparission between kk and rafi. Both were masters of their fields and also there was no silly competition between them both respected each other.
rquest the all music lovers plzzzzzzzzz dont use a /////////////// leng:
May 30th, 2007 at 9:04 am
Some love the legend - Mohd Rafi,
Some love the genious - Kishore Kumar……
Few love Himesh…. not knowing whether
he will survive the next few months….
Folks Listen to the great works of our legends..
Lata , Rafi & Kishore, Talat & Manna, Mukesh & Saighal….
For, They are the sweet nectar of music and life
to drown our joys and sorrows…… hopes and aspirations…
for centuries….. to come….
binu nair
May 30th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
Dear prashant as u said Famous comment on kk
I will say Famous comment on Mohd Rafi,
lata Ji ,Singer like Mohd Rafi born obce in life time.
Asha Ji. No one can win Mohd Rafi.
Naushand ,no need to say anything boz we all knows.
P from LP .said easy to make music for Mohd Rafi Lata and Asha boz what we made they will sing but other singer we make music the way they able to sing,L from LP said I don’t know how to make music without Mohd Rafi.
RD said that his first song was singed by Mohd Rafi after listening his own songs he was thinking Is it my song or the magic of Mohd Rafi.
OP Nayar and Shammi Kapoor,they said they are because of Mohd Rafi.
there was vote in this site in this site and Mohd Rafi was link in same place file Mohd Rafi more than 70% and all other singer less tha 30% If i am not wrong u r KK was less than 20% plz ADMIN answer if i am wrong.
Q1,Give one name who said that he is boz of KK?
Q2,Why SJ said this song is not KK CUP OF TEA?
Q3,Why KK gave music to Mohd Rafi?
Q4,Why RD used Mohd Rafi in his first flims and after 1976?
Q5.Can u give me RD best five songs?
Q6,Why when Amit Kummar(kk son) singed Mohd Rafi song on Zee TV in programm called Yoodlee and he don’t able to sing it and people sing it again and he said no in other day?WHY?
Q7,Why RD and LP used Mohd Rafi for Mr Bachchan and they never used KK for Shammi Kapoor?
Q8,Why Naushand usrd KK only once?
Q9,Would u give me SD best five songs?
May 31st, 2007 at 1:34 pm
Q1: I totally believe that RDB wanted to be unique and that’s why he used KK as his main singer. RDB’s career revolved heavily around KK and when KK’s death lead to RDB’s demise. Kishore Kumar played a large hand in the rise of Rajesh Khanna (and vice versa - mutual relation) and Rajesh wouldn’t have the status he did without KK. Of course Rafi would do just as good playback, but Rajesh would be just another star out of the several dozens that the great Rafi sang for - he wouldn’t be unique.
Q3: KK had tremendous respect and admiration for Mohd Rafi so he agreed to have Rafi Sahab do playback for him. I don’t think Mohd Rafi ever did playback for Kishore as a result of Kishore not being able to render the song (although granted, if KK was singing Ae Mohabat Zindabad hahahaha that’d be another story but I’m only discussing songs picturized on KK). For example, OP Nayar had Rafi replace KK to punish KK for coming late to recordings, not because KK couldn’t sing the song.
Q2, Q8: While I personally don’t think anyone could have BETTER rendered “Nafrat Ki Duniya” than Mohd Rafi, I do think a singer as capable, talented and great as KK could successfully sing that song. And I think KK fans with tastes different than mine would like the KK version better. I’ve heard that KK got too emotional while doing the song and perhaps LP didn’t appreciate that. Remember that when Kishore sang “O Saathi Re” (my favorite KK song - a song I think NO ONE could have sung better - his rough voice in the song added an extra element of sadness IMO so his weakness became artistically a strength) he actually CRIED during the recording. Amitabh Bachchan attended the recording and did not understood - only later when AB had to act out the song did he appreciate the genius of KK.
Additionally, MDs have bias towards singer (although when just about every MD prefers Rafi it shows how great Rafi was!) and that is a bit subjective and doesn’t necessary take away from the singer IMO. If I was a MD, I’d naturally like the Rafi rendition and give him all my songs. But someone else may not have ears like mine and prefer another singer’s. Besides, SJ and Naushad had a long time partnership with Rafi, they were inclined to him. To sing for Naushad, classical training was very important and it was more emphasized in the 1950s and 1960s (disadvantage to KK) than the 1970s where the trend of music changed. The peak times of Naushad and SJ (pre-70) and music values of their time were simply out of phase with Kishore’s abiliites. And KK just didn’t suit Naushad’s music but that doesn’t mean KK wasn’t great for other MDs. Right singer for the right composition - I just think Rafi’s crisp, clean, very melodious voice was better suited for the music of SJ but Kishore’s voice could suit other kind of music.
Q6: Amit Kumar is no Kishore Kumar but I really appreciate his attempted tribute to Rafi. Btw, what song was he trying to sing?
Q7: Shammi Kapoor’s time was up when KK hit the waves. What does it matter, he was THE VOICE for Amitabh!
I feel compelled to be defensive of KK at times because we are invading this site, the KK fans are not properly defending the great singer IMO, and KK did have tremendous respect for Rafi.
May 31st, 2007 at 1:42 pm
I’m a bit dissappointed with this discussion, it is too one sided
If the this debate has been going on for more years than I have been alive, mustn’t it be a legitimate debate?
This one sided discussion doesn’t seem to indicate that?
I suppose people just love the natural voice of KK and remember him as the voice of the 70s superstars Rajesh Khanna and Amitabh Bachchan and that itself is enough to raise KK to such ranks.
I for the life of me can never understand why Dharmendra was’t labelled a “superstar.” In Sholay, the makers were skeptical of Amitabh and it was Dharmendra who used his clout to convince them otherwise. Dharmendra IMO was superior to Rajesh Khanna in every way and I always loved the Rafi-Dharmendra combination - the two fit each other perfectly.
I don’t think Shammi Kapoor fit Rafi perfectly as opposed to Rafi’s voice just being suitable for EVERY SINGLE ACTOR!
The two most perfect fits IMO:
Rafi-Dharmendra
Kishore-Amitabh
How I was Rafi sang in Sholay! I’ll never forgive RDB for depriving me of that, that is the only thing missing in Sholay, the only flaw in the movie.
May 31st, 2007 at 9:42 pm
Manish:
1. I think you have raised very good points. It is a legitimate debate; I think Kishore deserves kudos for one single fact-he could stand up to Rafi’s stature and dominate over rafi for few years..That without much formal training.
2. I (like many others) was a Kishore fan too till I was about 20 (because in calcutta you are more exposed to Kishore songs), then I got increasingly more exposed and hence more inclined towards Rafi. I also think that Rafi’s songs carried more profound lyrics (because of Sahir, Shakeel, Kaifi, Hasrat) than Kishore’s (Anjaan, Indeevar and the likes), which I was able to appreciate only with age.
3. I think this debate is one sided because of the topic- who is the best singer as opposed to who is the best entertainer? Kishore entertains me a lot-in parties, in cars, in picnics..I definitely have listener to “Khaike Pan banaraswal” ten times more than “Man re kahe na”.. But then I do not mix entertainment and music.
4. Based on #3, I think more people LOVE Kishore. More people RESPECT Rafi. So one’s judgement would be split along lines of “entertainment versus music”, “love versus respect”. Love for Kishore is also accentuated by his “eccentric genius” image which, as I said before, markets well like Chaplin, Maradona, Ritwick Ghatak…
5. Rafi touches me more than KK. In fact in sad songs rafi to me is at par with Mukesh. Mukesh prevails in low pitch, high bass sad songs, Rafi prevails better in high pitch songs.
6. I really think KK damaged Bengali songs and with RD and Bappi possibly destroyed it beyond recovery. If Asha Bhosle being a Marathi can sing “ke prothom kache esechey” or Lata can sing “Ashar Srabon maney na to mon”, I do not understand why Kishore had to give Mumbaiya touch to bengali songs.
I will now sign off..
May 31st, 2007 at 10:40 pm
Manish,
Maybe the discussion may sound one-sided because there is never enough one can say or do to have a shot in matching any singer against Rafi. You cannot place any singer in his category, there is too much of a difference. It is one thing to say something based on opinion, but to mention and opinion and call it a fact with no backup, like many have done, will not result in a good discussion.
Rafi sang the Shararat song because SJ felt Kishore would not be able to do justice to it, simple as that. Same for “Nafrat Ki Duniya”, Kishore was not capable of singing such a song which is why it ultimately went to Rafi, this is also true. Kishore sang the rest of the HMS songs, and for this last song, LP turned to Rafi.
For me, being the voice of Rajesh Khanna and Amitabh is no big deal, there were stars before them and stars after them. Rafi also sang songs for them as well, and they also were big hits. If one is going to compare Kishore’s singing ability to Rafi’s with the help of these two actors, then such a discussion should not go on, because it is really hilarious.
June 1st, 2007 at 12:22 am
stunned to know that ther is arafi vrsion of zindgi ekzafar.never heard it.can any body post that song in utube?.i am akeralite. i know alot of people who worship rafi in the state.iam 43.i started regularly hearing rafi songs from 1984 onwards.i by chance happened to hear london programme of rafi at that time.alot of people also hear kishore songs.but most people consider rafi as a great singer alongwith yesudas.yesudas is also a gret singer.he is 70 or more now.even now he sings very beautifully.that is a very long innings.his sound is almost intact even now.i think ther is no other male singer in our country with such a long creer extending well beyond 70.i think only rafi songs could invade and conqer some of yesudas kingdom in kerala.,though ki8shore led several invasions to conquer the music lovers harts in kerala since aradhana.
June 1st, 2007 at 6:48 pm
Dear Manish Kuimar..
YOU are spot ON…….
R.d. Burmans scarce use of Mohd Rafi, hastened his downfall..
Sholay missed Rafi songs when Manna Dey sang for the romantic
lovable Dharmendra.
In Seeta aur Geeta, RD used Kishores voice on Sanjeev Kumar…
upsetting the trend……
And R.D. Could not repeat the success of Kati Patang, Aap ki Kasam
and few movies of early seventies. He was no Shankar Jaikishan nor
a Laxmikant Pyarelal who could carry on the initial success….
Did R.D.B antagonise RAFI fans and the music lovers?
Can someone say WHY about two dozen films of RD BURMAN
failed at the box-office?…. And , Why Laxmikant Pyarelal
the nearest competitor scored hits after after in the seventies
and eighties?
Not to forget here that L.P. never left Mohd Rafi until Rafi saabs sudden
departure in 1980..
binu nair….
June 1st, 2007 at 10:46 pm
Well said myk, I agree with you. Rafiji is the best singer of India. he’s still much more popular in India and abroad.
June 1st, 2007 at 11:51 pm
Kishore made Amitabh famouse or Amitabh made Kishore??plz plz plz KK fans give me one name who said that he is because of KK??????IF I am not wrong in Music the KING was Anil Biswas in 1940’s in 1950’s Naushand Ali,in 1960’s was SJ and in 1970’s was LP after Mohd Rafi there was no king in music world.
Rajesh Roshan said once that u r saying why we don’t give good music as we gave in 1970’s because there is no one like Mohd Rafi with us.
how can give one song which singed by Mohd Rafi for Amitabh when Amitabh was superstar and the song is not super hit and same to Rajesh Khanna plz?
Zamana jab talak ghata rahe ga Mohd Rafi har waqt yaad aata rahe ga
By great Naushand
Tujhe naghmon ki jaan ahle nazar yoon hi nahi kahte
Tere geeton ko dilon ka humsafar yoon hi nahi kahte
Dukhi the laakh fir bhi mutmain the dard ke mare
Teri aawaz ki shabnam se dhul jate the gham sare
Teri tano me husne zindagi leta tha angdai
Tujhe baksha tha allah ne andaze maseehai
Tu hi tha pyar ka ek saaz is nafrat ki duniya me
Ghanimat thi teri aawaz is nafrat ki duniya me
Mahfilon ke daman me sahilo ke aaspas
Ye sada goonjegi sadiyon tak dilon ke aaspas.
June 2nd, 2007 at 7:37 am
In all seriousness, where are all the KK fans??? Someone should show up, considering how truly popular KK is?!?!
June 2nd, 2007 at 9:13 am
Binu Nair,how dare you used such words to the greatest music composer RD?RD is much much popular than any other music composer.And Kishoreji is undoubtedly the greatest singer and genius.His songs alone sell more than Lata,Rafi,Asha,Mukesh,Manna combinely.
KISHORE KUMAR IS GOD,THE GREATEST AND MOST POPULAR SINGER OF ALL TIMES TO COME IN THIS WORLD ,RAFI IS FAR FAR FAR FAR BEHIND IN CLASS AND POPULARITY.
June 2nd, 2007 at 9:32 am
Few facts or opinions does’nt make it a truth…. All facts taken
to gether - from 1947 to 1970 and from 1976 to 1980 about
playback singing and about Mohd Rafi prove one point.
That, there is no singer of Rafi saabs range or quality who
strode the MUSICAL SCENE AS THE NUMERO UNO SINGER
of the golden period of hindi music.
In 1971 Rafi took many months break and MDs could not wait.
According to Shri Shakti Samanta producer of Aradhana - thus
Kishore Kumar reaped the benefit. It was good for Kishore and
the music connossieours - as a change is always good…..
Rafi then hit the stage, world tours, concerts at Goregoan and
at Shanmukananda, which music lovers lapped up…
And in 1977 Rafi saab came back with a bang….
Similarly, Lata in the eighties went on a 90 day world tour
and new singers got a chance as Mds could ‘nt wait and
Laxmikant Pyarelal took new voices of Anuradha , Kavita and
many others - displeasing the lady no end………. But this is
another true story - for a discussion may be… As Lata also
was slowly but surely SIDELINED….
BINU NAIR…
June 2nd, 2007 at 12:24 pm
I’ve provided below the links on youtube for six songs playbacked on Dev Anand, three by Rafi and three by Kishore, and all composed by S. D. Burman. We all have our own biases, but these songs capture the essence of playback singing. The songs are sung by the two greatest “playback” singers of all time, with the third sneaking in two of the duets. In this discussion, I was rather amused to find that Kishore fans didn’t ever mention “Phoolon ke rang se” (just listen to his voice in this song) or “Yeh dil na hota bechara” that are so quintessentially Kishore.
Achhaji main hari: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAUAluS5_sg&NR=1
Dil ka bhanwar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOB2q2wO62I
Din dhal jaye hai: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJuK5K0zCa0
Yeh dil na hota bechara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uTdB3Gwwfs
Are yaar meri: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6uJtsxMDv0
Phoolon ke rang se: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr2Bv7GucIY
June 2nd, 2007 at 8:03 pm
Since you mentioned youtube, I found the full LIVE version of “O Duniya ke rakhawale”…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjNJjFminCs
This is possibly one of the very few clips in youtube where the video quality does not matter. Just listen to the ease of scale transitions and the depth..He is singing from the navel (as Anandji mentioned) unlike Sonu Nigam and the likes…In one word…AMAZING..
June 2nd, 2007 at 9:24 pm
Dear Rajesh,
I am better singer than Mohd Rafi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!i can say Yahoooo ,RD was greatest!!!!!!!would u please give me RD list of hit flims??KK made Mr Bachchan superstar if there was no KK there was no superstar in Bollywood!!!!!because there are only two superstanr first was Rajesh Khanna because of KK and 2nd was Mr Bachchan because of kk!!!!?if there was no KK there was no RD and SD also KK made LP!!!!!!!after 1980 there was not good musc because KK didn’t sing much!!!!
I am not crazy dears jest I don’t know anything about singer when Mohd Rafi sing I think he is KK.
June 2nd, 2007 at 11:03 pm
Mr. Rajesh…
Please follow all facts which is the truth…
RDB gave some promising musicals undoubtedly - but soon
became stereotyped. Thus his music and films flopped around
the eighties which saddended music lovers no end…….
Meantime, Laxmikant Pyarelal who used to assist R.D.Burman
along with Kalyanji Anandji were giving unmatched “VARIETY”
MUSIC and surged ahead.. This is no FICTION… SIR…..
I do not wish to demean R.D. Burman any time but facts haved to
be stated…. they turn to be bitter for few, I am aware…….
About your view that Kishore Kumar sells more than Lata,Asha
Rafi, Mukesh and Manna dey is unbelievable and true fiction,
a figment of your imagination…..
Please prove it with statistics/numbers to prove it otherwise..
I wait for it.
binu nair…
June 3rd, 2007 at 12:44 pm
R.D. Burman’s music was copied from western tunes, he made great songs with Rafiji. No one here in London agree that Kishore Kumar sells more than Rafiji or Lataji or Ashaji.
June 3rd, 2007 at 8:31 pm
Dear Rajesh ,
Yes u r right KK was more better than Lata ji because when KK singed with Lata ji he had one Rs less than Lata ji!!!!why?!!!KK never singed for one Rs but Mohd Rafi was so cheap paid singer two songs only for one Rs…..
June 4th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Sir,
Pl. stop these silly war of kk & rafi fans. There is no result or output for discussing who is great in both of them.
June 4th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Guys I feel it is unfair to compare these two greats.
Rafi no doubt was a true worshipper of music and got this kind of voice quality through sheer hard work and practice. His perfection of ’sur’ and melody is beyond compare.
But Kishore had Saraswati placed in his vocal chord. When he came to scene with his maverick singing and versatility he did make the peerless and invincible Rafi insecure for some years.
However as I said both are great in their ways and to demean anyone would be blasphemous.
June 4th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
KISHORE KUMAR IS A LEGEND BEYOND COMPARISON. TO ALL THE RAFI FANS, I HAVE A LOT OF RESPECT FOR RAFI AS A SINGER, BUT KISHORE’S GENIUS SIMPLY CAN NOT BE MATCHED. I LOVE THIS MAN’S VOICE, AND HIS SONGS MOVE & STIR YOUR SOUL. I LOVE & ADORE KISHORE KUMAR.
June 6th, 2007 at 2:33 am
Kishore Kumar cannot be greater than Rafiji.
June 6th, 2007 at 8:52 am
For we Mohd Rafi lovers, his songs are sublime, out of this world.
His conduct in life was - M A T C H L E S S ….. and spotless….
Rafi saab lives in the hearts of millions of music lovers - all
around the globe….
Rafi Saab deserves the Bharat Ratna Award more than any
body…….
His immortal songs are the true friends of MANKIND and for
Music Lovers.
UNBEATABLE AND UNCONQUERABLE.. ..
MATCHLESS ARE HIS WORKS……
And lastly we Rafians will not compare Rafi saab with Kishore
Kumar - whom we all love; no doubt about it…….
binu nair..
June 6th, 2007 at 8:45 pm
True Nairji, no one can be compared to Rafiji. As someone said, it’s a one side debate.
June 8th, 2007 at 7:13 pm
No one can be compared with Kishoreji,it is a one sided debate.Kishoreji could have easily sung Rafi’s songs,but Rafi could not even dream of attempting Kishoreji’s songs.And everybody knows Kishoreji is the most popular.Monty are you mad?Rajesh is right,Kishoreji’s songs are much much more popular and sells more than all other singers collectively.
June 10th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
No one can be compared to Kishoreda. Leave alone rafi. As far as playback singing goes the slot of 1-10 is occupied by kishoreda rafi comes at 13 behind lataji and ashatai.
Kishoreda ki had a great tonal quality he had a baritone voice that suited legends like amitabh, rajesh, dev like no one else.
Rafi had a thin feminine voice that allowed to sing at high pitch but he struggled when given songs with low notes and ignorant people talk about his range.
Filmfare a magazine which is still considered the last word on bollywood constituted RDB award in the memory of RDB but no such award has been consituted for for Rafi till date. Thus filmfare considers RDB a bigger film personality than rafi.RDB consirered KK greater than Rafi.
Coz only a genius recognizes another.
Take the case of singing talent programs.In Indian IDOl 1 and 2 no rafi clone has won till date . Same is the case with sa re ga ma pa.
Indian Idol I was won by abhijeet sawant a self confessed kishoreda fan. Sa re ga ma pa was won by debojit another fan of kishoreda
In all these programs, it is India who decides. These are hard facts which cannot be ignored by rafi fans.
Rafi target audience is of the age group 45 and above and kishoreda all those below 45 especially teenagers. Even today if a country wide poll is done on who is India’s Greatest singer, I am confident that kishoreda will get 80% votes, and the remaining votes will go to all other singers, rafi i guess getting below 5% votes.
June 10th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
Kishore Kumar himself had said that his favourite singer is Mohd Rafiji, that’s it! Now who are these Kishore fans??? Making useless “shor”.
June 10th, 2007 at 9:49 pm
Anonymous:
“Take the case of singing talent programs.In Indian IDOl 1 and 2 no rafi clone has won till date . Same is the case with sa re ga ma pa.”
—What does it prove? Who is easier to imitate? Man, think logically before you write.
–You are talking of low pitch (bass) singing.. Have you sung in your life? If so, try singing “Tumse Kahoon Ek baat” (Dastak) and if you can get past the mukhda you are great! If you think of modulation, try “Jawaniyan yeh mast” or “Pukarta Chala hoon main”. Again if you can get past the mukhda, you are great. In my college social a guy tried “Pukarta Chala hoon main”. He could not get past the mukhda.
–How can you decide for the whole of India. Let us not get into the popularity and as I said if popularity is a measure of art, pornographic magazines sell more than Tagore..The who’s whos in the industry have voted number of times and Kishore has never topped them.
– “Coz only a genius recognizes another”…So you do not consider Madan Mohan a genius or Jaikishen a genius? Shows your musical knowledge..If copying catchy western tunes is the only mark of genious, RD is the only one.
–As I said, more people /*possibly*/ love Kishore but more people respect Rafi. If the baritone voice was an answer to all macho characters, why did the biggest macho symbol in Bollywood till date (Dharmendra) pick Rafi as his preferred singer? And let me tell you, your so called “baritone” voice can NEVER EVER sing “Abhi na jao chodkar” or “Din dhal jaye”… The result would be horrible! Try imagining this.
June 11th, 2007 at 12:40 am
Also Kishore’s fans are making a big deal of the “no classical training bit”
-True Kishore had minimal (not zero) classical training. But what’s teh big deal. He did not sing any great classical numbers either. If you make a list of 50 top classical songs in films, no KK song would come in the list.
Rafi being a humble, introvert and conventional person never had any cheap publicity. Otherwise it IS INDEED A BIG DEAL THAT HE COULD RENDER SUCH EXPRESSIONS WITHOUT ANY ACTING BACKGROUND.
1. How can a person who did not touch a single drop of liqour sing “Mujhe duniyawalo” or “Arey sambhalo” or “Chalkaye Jaam” or “Peete Peete kabhi kabhi”?
2. How can a person who NEVER indulged in romance (unlike KK) could sing romantic numbers like “Yeh mera prem patra” or “Main kahin kavi na” or “Tere aakhon ke siva”?
3. How can a person who was never ditched or never lost his wife (again unlike KK) sing “Chirag dil ka jalao” or “Meri awaaz suno” or “Din dhal jaye”?
As anonymous said (inadvertantly confessed) Kishore Kumar craze is just a passing pase in life (I had that too). When you are 25, when you try to impress girls with your so-callled baritone rendition and yodelling, when you think life is all about machoism and fun, you listen to Kishore.
When you have grown some maturity, have come to terms with the grim realities of life, have grown out of infatuation into true love, have lost few of your near and dear ones, have broken relationships, you listen to Rafi or Mukesh..
Rafi is a singer for all seasons-fun, frolic, pensive, sorrow…The so-called “baritone” voice can only entertain, NOT SOOTHE…
June 11th, 2007 at 12:41 am
#
Anonymous:
“Take the case of singing talent programs.In Indian IDOl 1 and 2 no rafi clone has won till date . Same is the case with sa re ga ma pa.”
—What does it prove? Who is easier to imitate? Man, think logically before you write.
–You are talking of low pitch (bass) singing.. Have you sung in your life? If so, try singing “Tumse Kahoon Ek baat” (Dastak) and if you can get past the mukhda you are great! If you think of modulation, try “Jawaniyan yeh mast” or “Pukarta Chala hoon main”. Again if you can get past the mukhda, you are great. In my college social a guy tried “Pukarta Chala hoon main”. He could not get past the mukhda.
–How can you decide for the whole of India. Let us not get into the popularity and as I said if popularity is a measure of art, pornographic magazines sell more than Tagore..The who’s whos in the industry have voted number of times and Kishore has never topped them.
– “Coz only a genius recognizes another”…So you do not consider Madan Mohan a genius or Jaikishen a genius? Shows your musical knowledge..If copying catchy western tunes is the only mark of genius, RD is the only one.
–As I said, more people /*possibly*/ love Kishore but more people respect Rafi. If the baritone voice was an answer to all macho characters, why did the biggest macho symbol in Bollywood till date (Dharmendra) pick Rafi as his preferred singer? And let me tell you, your so called “baritone” voice can NEVER EVER sing “Abhi na jao chodkar” or “Din dhal jaye”… The result would be horrible! Try imagining this.
Also Kishore’s fans are making a big deal of the “no classical training bit”
-True Kishore had minimal (not zero) classical training. But what’s teh big deal. He did not sing any great classical numbers either. If you make a list of 50 top classical songs in films, no KK song would come in the list.
Rafi being a humble, introvert and conventional person never had any cheap publicity. Otherwise it IS INDEED A BIG DEAL THAT HE COULD RENDER SUCH EXPRESSIONS WITHOUT ANY ACTING BACKGROUND.
1. How can a person who did not touch a single drop of liqour sing “Mujhe duniyawalo” or “Arey sambhalo” or “Chalkaye Jaam” or “Peete Peete kabhi kabhi”?
2. How can a person who NEVER indulged in romance (unlike KK) could sing romantic numbers like “Yeh mera prem patra” or “Main kahin kavi na” or “Tere aakhon ke siva”?
3. How can a person who was never ditched or never lost his wife (again unlike KK) sing “Chirag dil ka jalao” or “Meri awaaz suno” or “Din dhal jaye”?
As anonymous said (inadvertantly confessed) Kishore Kumar craze is just a passing pase in life (I had that too). When you are 25, when you try to impress girls with your so-callled baritone rendition and yodelling, when you think life is all about machoism and fun, you listen to Kishore.
When you have grown some maturity, have come to terms with the grim realities of life, have grown out of infatuation into true love, have lost few of your near and dear ones, have broken relationships, you listen to Rafi or Mukesh..
Rafi is a singer for all seasons-fun, frolic, pensive, sorrow…The so-called “baritone” voice can only entertain, NOT SOOTHE…
June 11th, 2007 at 9:48 am
Dear Anony-mous:
What is your name and who are you… You can hide your name
and identity : but let me tell you :
Y o u have a mentality and an attitude of a frog in the well…
ur musical standards and write - up is laughable ……
and lastly…. thanks for the GOOD JOKE AS STATED ABOVE..
binus….
June 11th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
Well written anonymous great,if Kishoreda is Bradman,Rafi is not even a child cricketer.
HAIL KISHOREDA,THE GREATEST OF ALL.
June 12th, 2007 at 5:18 am
Mr. Haldar,
Pls. listen song from movie “Pyar Kiye ja”. Rafi sang for Shashi Kapoor. Song was like this “RAMLAL MURDABAD…”
He really spoiled the songs. His voice not at all suits wheh he utters RAMALA MURDABAD.
Its pathetic.
No doubt Rafi was one of the legend, but he could not touch Kishore’s talent and energy. It is proven from 1969 - 1987. It is history.
ashu
June 13th, 2007 at 12:57 am
Ashu, tu idhar bhi aa gaya? Homework diya tha, abhi tak khatam nahi kiya. Tu homework pahle complete kar, uske baad main jawab doonga. Please don’t say your dog has eaten up your homework. In any case, here it is again:
—-
And here’s a homework assignment for you; take your time because you’ll need it. Among the many Dev Anand films that Rafi sung in, I’ll mention only one and that too a non-SD film. The film is Hum Dono and the music was composed by Jaidev, SD’s assistant. There are three Rafi songs in the film, two solos and one duet:
1. Main zindagi ka saath nibhata chala gaya
2. Kabhi khud pe kabhi halat pe rona aaya
3. Abhi na jawo chhod kar (with Asha)
The first part of your homework is to figure out which Rafi sang each of the songs. The second part is a little more difficult. Go through the archives of all Dev Anand films (doesn’t matter who the MD is) and give me one film where Kishore has three songs whose combined impact comes anywhere near that of the three mentioned above. This is your home turf. After all, Kishore is Dev’s voice!
June 13th, 2007 at 2:34 am
Kishore Kumar had a superior voice to Mohd Rafi - even in terms of musical techniques. His deep, barritone voice meant that his voice had SUPERIOR TONAL quality to Mohd Rafi and this meant that he sounded more enunciated. This is one quality of Kishore Kumar that allowed him to make songs, be it just about any song - popular. Listen to the songs from Sharabi, the song from Ram Balram (Humse Bhool Hogaya), and even Khaike Pan Banaswala - he has such a POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING voice that adds energy and clarity to the singing that Mohd Rafi cannot match. Those three words in capital cannot be used to describe Mohd Rafi - can Rafi fans dispute this? Rafi had a moderate voice but it didn’t have the same ENERGY or RESOUNDING TONAL quality of Kishore Kumar.
Yes, Udit Narayan is a singer closer to the Mohd Rafi school. I agree with above posters that he is a great singer (not some ordinary SaReGaMa contestant) and so he took his hand at the KK song. He couldn’t recapture the magic because he, like Rafi just doesn’t have the words POWERFUl, BOOMING, ENERGETIC that is reserved for Kishore Kumar. It is for these reasons that Kishore Kumar reigns supreme with just his voice and no training. Could Mohammed Rafi, LP’s favorite singer, have sung the song from Mr India “Kaate Nahi Tak Ye Din Ye Raat” - no you needed the energy of Kishore Kumar. Mohd Rafi would not have been able to do this song justice.
Mohd Rafi was technically a great singer but his voice wasn’t naturally AS ENERGETIC or as great in TONE (things I consider very important) as Kishore Kumar’s. What is even more amazing about Kishore Kumar is that despite having such a heavy, powerful voice, he could have MELODY too! That’s one advantage about Rafi and his soft / light voice - he was a little more melodious maybe because it was easier to switch around notes with such a light voice.
Mohd Rafi tried to compensate for his moderate / light voice by shifting into high pitch. In the duet “Mere Dildar Baankh Pan” Kishore shows stronger tone and Rafi tries to compensate by shifting to a higher pitch but it doesn’t have the same effect and it sounds somewhat strained and highly efforted.
Rafi didn’t always have a soft voice but mostly his voice wasn’t nearly as strong as Kishore’s. Yes, in the song “Tu Hindu Banega” or …trouble thinking of more he showed a strong voice.
Listen to his song , “Kaise Jeet Lete Hai Dil Kisika” it is a great song because Mohd Rafi, for all his soft voice, is technically very sound and does indeed have uncanny magic in his voice, but his tonal qualit is just not there. The words sound as if they’re of LIGHT THREAD - each word isn’t as emphasized as they would be with Kishore’s booming voice - it is a like a long, smooth blur. Yes, Rafi was good for his times. He was good for his times when music didn’t require the energy of Kishore Kumar till later (Rock, machines etc).
MOHD RAFI FANS: Give me a list of songs where Mohd Rafi shows strong tonal quality, where his voice is booming and resounding, where the words themselves are CLEARLY enunciated, and the song doesn’t sound so efforted. “Kaise Jeet Lete Hai Dil” is a great song but doesn’t have those qualities. Bura Mat Suno - not the same tonal quality as Kishore. Dildar Baankh Pan - voice sounds worn and efforted.
Give me a list of Rafi’s energetic, booming sounds. I await.
June 13th, 2007 at 7:53 am
While Khaike Pan Banaraswala may not be as musically touted as Dard E Dil, it was more popular because of the energy in Kishore’s voice. KK made that song a hit - anyone else like Rafi or Udit Narayan would have failed.
June 13th, 2007 at 9:10 am
Sanjay
First let me congratulate you for the FIRST KNOWLEDGEABLE POST BY A KK FAN.
But, what is “POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” to you can be “LOUD, HOARSE and INAPT” to someone else. To me romantic and sad songs are NOT meant to be “POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” and that is where Kishore fails. It can create superhits but does not capture the mellow and closeness that is so necessary in romance.
If you really talk of melody and barritone voice talk of Hemant Kumar (or Hemanta Mukherjee) or Mehdi Hasan. They are deep but not out of melody.
If you go by the “masculine, barritone” yardstick, then Talat Mehmood is no singer at all. I am surprised why he is called “King of Ghazals”. In the same yardstick Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is crap! Rahat Fateh Ali Khan is a novice!
I agree with you on your observation on “Mere dildar ka bakhpan”. This is one song where I think Rafi could have done better. I think because Kishore started the song, he set the tone and set the frequency to his comfort zone. Though in the antara where there is a small yugalbandi, Rafi catches up and Kishore oversimplifies the “jawabs”.
I think this debate is never going to end. Simply because, if you love deep, barritone voice you got to love Kishore and hate Rafi. If you love sweet, melodious voice you got to love Rafi and dislike Kishore.. There is no middle ground.
But to answer your question on Rafi songs that have strong tonal quality. The answer is simple: ALL-depnds on what you are looking for. But since you possibly mean deep, low bass singing, I will name a few :
1. Kabhi Khud pe
2. Suhani Raat Dhal Chuki (it is amazing that this tonal quality was demonstrated in 1949, when instrumental aid was non-existent)
3. Jab Mohabbat Jawan Hota hai
4. Main nigahen tere chehre se hatayoon kaise
5. Aapne yaad dilaya to mujhe yaad aaya
6. Hui shaam unka khayal aa gaya
Now let me give you 5 more songs that will just sound HORRIBLE and HOARSE in “”POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” voice.. Since you seem to be the first and only knowledgeable person in the KK camp, I would like you to comment on how KK’s natural voice would sound in these:
1. Abhi na jao chod kar
2. Door rehkar na karo baat
3. Thehriye hosh mein aa loon to chale jayega
4. Tum se kahoon ek baat
5. Aaja tujhko pukare mera pyar
You will always find some odd Rafi songs because Rafi was given all kinds of songs while MDs protected KK within his comfort zone.
It is interesting that you find Rafi strained while all MDs ranging from Naushad to A.R Rahman feels otherwise (effortless scaling). Of the current day music directors, Rahman, Shantanu Moitra, Ismail and Vishal Sekhar swear by Rafi.
June 13th, 2007 at 9:11 am
Im sorry for 3 posts..It was not to create more momentum for Rafi-blame it on my browser
June 13th, 2007 at 10:26 am
Dear Ashu, homework ke liye extra time chahiye kya? Theek hai, tension maat lena. Sawal thora asan kar doon kya? Shashi Kapoor aur Kapoor khandan ka baat chhor; Dev Anand hi kaafi hai hamare liye. We believe in fair competition. Hints chahiye to zaroor batana, hna? In the meantime, Dev ka aur ek gaana bhej raha hoon tumhare manoranjan ke liye. Yeh gana ki dhun Jaikishan ne banaya tha 1959 mein. Bahut hi pyara tha Jai; Rafi saab Jai ko chhote bhai se bhi zyada pyar karte the. Yeh gana ka music Sebastian ne most probably arrange kiya tha. Sebastian ka naam soona? Many in the music world consider him the best in the business. Sebastian D’Souza. Tujhe thora thora history bata raha hoon; theek se homework kar, sab seekh jayoge. Aur yeh sab legends ko izzat karna sikhoge. Jai passed away before he reached 40; he became a legend when he was 17. Ab gaana soon:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0okwnJkLVB0
June 13th, 2007 at 10:32 am
Sanjay ji….
It is the melody than counts…. you cant become besurra…..
if you are a great singer…. Confidence is one imp. thing in
any job… Rafi saabh took up the challenge and sang all type
of songs - immortalising them… He never would say : give
this song to xyz.. since I cannot sing it….. u know why I am
saying this…here..
Two facts here: The producers and distributors would always
dictate terms to the composers. They would say : We want
Rafi saab as the male play-back. , they knew the saleability
and the long term shelf life of RAFI songs… this went on for
almost three decades in the hindi film industry….
Secondly, the song Mana re tu kahe na dheer dhare .. is voted
by eminent new and yore music personalities as the best Hindi
song of the last 50 years in an OUTLOOK SURVEY last year….
More , the songs : Mana tadapat…, to Ganga ki mauj…
Bhagwaan… Oh duniya ke rakhwale…. and many other are
pure gems : and if any singer on this earth can sing these :
in RAFI-isque style, with emotions, feelings, diction, and everything
else included then I will bet and lose my - last penny….
More, Mohd Rafi-Lata has been voted the best singers of last
century by the Times of India Publications - survey….
So your lords voice tenor does not merit any discussion …and does
not hold water…
binu
June 13th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
Sanjay,
I think you’re absolutely right to say that some songs Kishore could sing better than Rafi. However, this has been addressed before, P Haldar mentioned in his first post that there is the “Kishore Dimension” of songs where yeah, Kishore sings better than anyone - including Rafi. All the songs you mentioned fit exactly that category. Do bear in mind though, that many of those songs come from RDB and Bappi - these two composers composed the song with KK specifically in mind - so the songs are INHERENTLY in favor of Kishore. Nevertheless, this is a very limited category and there are a great number of songs where I think Rafi can sing better. At the same time, I am always doubt ful to discount a great singer like Rafi. While I agree with you that no one could have sung Khaike Pan better than KK, I’d still give a great singer like Rafi a slim chance of pulling off an upset (one can never discount his magic). Never count out a great singer. Case in point: Zindagi Ek Safar Hai Suhana. I never knew there was a Rafi version for a long time. Always thought that KK’s version could never be beat. Then I hear Rafi version and I’m swept away but its superiority.
As for Rafi having a “weak” tone: that’s totally unfair. In many Rafi-KK duets the two had equal tone. In Zindagi Ek Safar (btw, I’ve said this many times, I liked Rafi’s version MUCH BETTER) Rafi shows better tonal quality in fact. I think some more knowledgeabl posters will give you a nice list where Rafi’s tone is great but here’s a Rafi-Lata gem that I like where he sings in a strong voice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b52lLgeG8Ww
Coincidentally, the song IS in high pitch but that is NOT to compensate for softness, the voice itself is strong in Rafi here. You should never try to generalize his voice - it was very versatile and he could modulate like no other.
June 13th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
We talking about KK singing a limited number of songs better than Rafi does bring up the point that we NEED ALL SINGERS and can’t live with just one. While I rate Rafi as greatest, I need KK too - he makes my life and my musical collection better. Right singer for the right song. My most recent favorite KK song is “Agar Tum Na Hote” I can only enjoy it so much thanks to Kishore! India is superior to USA in two things at least: food and music. What a great tradition of vocalists India has!
June 13th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
Dear Manish:
Some writers here are in the constant habit of putting the
cart before the proverbial horse : they are bent upon comparing
Mohd Rafi with Kishore : with half baked statements and a few
facts…… Kishore has some very good songs and we love him
for that..
However these half knowledge wordsmiths can never in their
entire lives be able to mar the legend Mohd Rafi’s 36 years of
contribution to the Indian Music Industry….
binu nair
June 14th, 2007 at 12:50 am
If “POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” is the only yardstick, then:
1. Kishore Kumar is the best singer for all regional music as well. I do not know how many South Indian songs Kishore has sung, but I doubt if any South Indian singer was as ““POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING””!!
2. Kishore is by far the best Bengali singer ahead of Dhananjay, Satinath, Manna, Hemanta, Manabendra. None of them was as ““POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING”. How many KK fans agree to that?
3. Yes KK was God-gifted. That’s why anyone with the same vocal quality would sing exactly the way KK sang. Case in point: Amit Kumar. I personally DO NOT FIND ANY DIFFERENCE between Amit and his dad, except that his dad was more focused and hence was a legend.
If someone had exactly the same vocal quality of Rafi, he would not be Rafi. Because Rafi was not all about vocal quality. As Lata said “his taan and harkatein were inimitable”…Rafi’s strength lay in his “taan and harkatein”-the ability to play with words, feelings, maatras.
June 14th, 2007 at 3:29 am
When He Sang Arrey Rafta Rafta Dekho
This is an eyewitness’s account, in the person’s own words.
Calcutta ke ek show mein Kishore Daa aur Rafi Sahab ek saath maujood the. Rafi sahab gaa kar utre aur Kishore ji stage par aaye….logon ne hangama kar diya, wo sirf Rafi Sahab ko sunna chah rahe the….log badtameezi par utar aaye na jane kya kya phenkne lage aur uchhalne lage….
Rafi saab, fauran green room se nikal kar aaye aur bole theek hai main gaata hoon….aur gaana shuru kiya ‘arey rafta rafta dekho aankh meri ladi hai….’
Do liney gaa kar logon se request kiya ke doosron ko bhi sune wo bhi itni door se aapka dil behlane ke liye aaye hain.
Aur jo do lines gaaeen wo aap sabhi jaante hain ke kishore ji ke gaaye huye gaane ki hain.
June 14th, 2007 at 4:31 am
The eyewitness in my previous post was not me; I found this anecdote on another website. I found it hugely amusing because I’ve had similar experiences at Rafi-Kishore concerts in Calcutta. In fact, I told you earlier that organizers of concerts used to keep Rafi as the last performer, for fear of crowd trouble. From the comments of some of my Bengali brothers and sisters, it seems Calcutta has changed now. And, my fellow Rafians, let me tell you something that you are mistaken about — there is no one more popular than Rafi. If you consider that he was at his creative best till around 1971, it’s been 36 long years and yet generations upon generations of listeners adore him, Orkut and FM channels notwithstanding.
Whenever he came to Calcutta for concerts, police used to be deployed in large numbers. The junta really used to go wild at his very sight. Some used to wait for Rafi1 to sing, some for Rafi2, and quite a few for Rafi4. He was four singers rolled into one. In 1974, when he came to sing at Kala Mandir, there was lathi charge outside the auditorium. In the following day’s Anandabazar Patrika, one of the headlines was “Ey monihar amar nahi saje”, the first line of the famous song that Tagore wrote after winning the Nobel. Apparently, Rafi had sung this line to the reporter who was interviewing him. It was my fervent hope that one day he would cut a Rabindrasangeet disc but that was not to be.
Kishore was not only great, he was unique. I can only have respect for a singer who displaced the mighty Rafi, albeit for five years, a feat that no other singer was able to accomplish. But if you take the entire gamut of songs, it’s always going to be Rafi. I’m sure Talat and Mukesh were better in some dimensions, but overall, if you consider everything, there can be only RAFI! As Manna-da so aptly remarked, “No one can touch Rafi”.
June 14th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Kishorda is the best.
If the classical music training and knowledge are important in film songs, most of the songs were sung by Pt. Jasraj, Bhimsen Joshi etc. Nobody remembers Md. Rafi today.
The songs which touches the heart of people are considered the best. Kishorda is far better than Rafi in this manner. His voice contained heroism itself, nomatter for whom he was plybacking.
If Kishorda has started his fulfledged career earlier even Rajendra kumar or Shammi kapoor etc. could touch the heights of Amitabh bacchan and Rajesh Khanna.
Our modern filmy music is the gift of tradition Kishorda has set. I can say that singers like Amit Kumar, Kumar Sanu, Abhijeet are following the tradition of Kishorda. Udit narayan, Sonu Nigam etc. have voice tone like Md. Rafi but they also are following the tradition of Kishorda only. Md. Rafi has not set any tradition. He was singing filmy songs in a classical tradition. He was neither the best classical singer nor best filmy singer.
Why Md. Rafi was so famous and considered as a legend? Because he was a “Ujjad gamma erando pradhan” in starting of the Indian film industry. This Gujarati proverb means - In the area where no trees or vegetation are there, people find even the ‘erando (Not so usefull tree)’ as the best. I truly believe that those music directors or singers who every time raise the flags of classical singing in filmy songs are super ficious. If we put them in classical music industry (having great personalities like Hariprasad Chorasiya, Shiv Kumar Sharma, Zakir Husain etc.) they will be prooven as rejected pieces of trash.
So stop commenting that Rafi has greater music knowledge and greater voice quality. His voice is like a dove. Ghu, ghu…..
June 14th, 2007 at 11:29 pm
Met Usha Timothi the other day who accompanied RAFI saab
for 38 - world tours apart from indian concerts.
In one concert in A.Pradesh, there was a large crowd creating
a stampede in yet another sold out show.. she said…
Rafi saab called the organisers and said : please open the gates
and allow the people in : and debit the cost on my account…
This was Mohd Rafi - the eternal singer - for the people - in all
corners of the world….P e o p l e just love him ….
binu nair
June 14th, 2007 at 11:46 pm
Sanjay saab:
Yeh boom-boom kya hota hai mujhe malum nahin, lekin aap ne rock ‘n roll ki farmaish kiya, to main chhe gaane pesh kar raha hoon. The first was composed by Ravi, the second and third by Jai and the remaining three by your loRD. Song number 1 was such a hit that it was copyrighted by a Carribean calypso group. The second was used in an American film called Ghost World and has become very popular in the west (if you go through the comments, it’s mostly by Westerners). The fourth became the signature tune of the 60s and launched your loRD to instant fame. Does the voice sound “thin” to you? Is it “energetic” enough for you? Tell me honestly in which of these songs Kishore would have done a better job. Kyun Mt. Everest climb karne ka koshish kar rahe ho, gir jaoge. Kya MAST MAST, theek bola na?
1. Baar baar dekho: http://youtube.com/watch?v=75SRg70XrVY
2. Jan pehchan: http://youtube.com/watch?v=aHA_S48KRrI
3. Aaj kal: http://youtube.com/watch?v=rBEXkwlQ_Ew&mode=related&search=
4. Aaja aaja: http://youtube.com/watch?v=v3p4w7S6n9o&mode=related&search=
5. O haseena: http://youtube.com/watch?v=z3O9ZuBBysc&mode=related&search=
6. Ek bechara: http://youtube.com/watch?v=gcRFCZPZXZk
June 15th, 2007 at 2:27 am
Mr. Nair, the last time I saw Rafi on stage, Usha Timothy was with him. And the last song I heard him sing live was “Aaja aaja main hun pyar tera” with Usha. He would deliberately mix the “aaja aaja’s” with “jaaja jaaja’s” and make panting sounds; Rafi4 in full form. The crowd was going wild and he motioned to his orchestra to stop and said, “Arre wah, Kalkatta-walo ko kya ho gaya!” and then resumed his “aaja aaja’s”. None of the current-day singers can even compete with Rafi4.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:34 am
Shridip, No one has nice and sweet voice than Rafiji, Kishore had harsh voice, it was just his luck he got Aradhana. Fully agreed that no one can touch Rafiji.
June 15th, 2007 at 2:37 am
Rajesh Khanna’s last films were totally flopped, in all these flop movies, KK had sung for Rajesh Khanna, why KKs songs didn’t help the movies or the ex-superstar??
June 15th, 2007 at 3:02 am
Shridip:
:Our modern filmy music is the gift of tradition Kishorda has set. I can say that singers like Amit Kumar, Kumar Sanu, Abhijeet are following the tradition of Kishorda”
-VERY TRUE..THat’s why 1985-1995 was the DARK AGE of Hindi fim music when trash like “Gutur gutur” or “Halwawala aa gaya” or “Main bhelpuri kha raha tha” or “Mera pant bhi sexy” were produced. Likewise Bengali music went down the drains, never to recover.
Only recently we see some revival with Gangster, Lagaan, Dil Chahta Hai. If you follow the recent trends, the focus is on high pitch Sufi style composition. Take Gangster or Kalyug, for example. The Rahat Fateh Ali (Tujhe dekhkar sona) or Zubeen (Ya Ali) numbers are essentially Rafi-style numbers. I cannot think of a single A.R. Rahman song that is sung in Kishore style (he clearly prefers soft voices).
June 15th, 2007 at 4:24 am
rafi was the best and will remain the best, kishoreda was good in his own way but not comparable with rafi who had a golden voice, sweet, natural, melodious, undescribeable voice, god given voice.
a voice that is still today being revered not only in india but also in places like senegal and many african countries whose natives dont speak or understand hindi but when they hear rafis voice they go in a trance for rafis magical voice.
June 15th, 2007 at 4:46 am
1. “To me romantic and sad songs are NOT meant to be “POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” and that is where Kishore fails. It can create superhits but does not capture the mellow and closeness that is so necessary in romance.”
Agreed, those are not the best traits for a romantic number. Kishore Kumar had a versatile voice that he could modulate very well. When needed, his voice was smooth and mellow. Case in point: “Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam” (one of greatest displays of voice for me – mellow yet powerful at the same time) from Dilli Ka Thug and “Ek Ladki…Milli Ek Ajnabise” from Chalti Naam Ka Gaadi are two great romantic songs that rank with the very best. No list of romantic songs is complete without these two. Clearly, Kishore does NOT fail.
You are much more knowledgeable with music than I am but I’ll dare to say you made a mistake, a mistake that many fans make. The style and values of music were greatly different in 1950s (romantic) than in 1970s (action). You can’t take 1970s Kishore and send him to 1950s romantic era – he’d be out of phase with his traits. He was powerful and resounding to cater to the 1970s but he’d make his voice mellow and smooth to cater to the different values of the 1950s (he sort of did that in the classic song Aane Wala Pal 1979 – how do you describe his voice here?). 1950s Kishore would and DID deliver romantic numbers. This leads to the question, “Why did he struggle in the 1950s then?”
Music in the 1950s much more science and less art and so not surprisingly classical training was highly emphasized. MDs overlooked Kishore’s artistic traits – which would be fine except for one thing. This also meant that the MDs overlooked his intrinsic, superior voice and they missed big (they were VERY LUCKY to have another great singer in Rafi to COVER that great miss but this is not my point as I will elaborate later).
A daring statement I know but I back it with the notion that the great SD Burman later ‘corrected’ his mistake by balancing more equally between Rafi & Kishore. In the 1970s he used Kishore Kumar much more and it wasn’t entirely just because the producers demanded Kishore during the wave. It wasn’t just because the values of music had shifted to Kishore’s forte. It was also becusse there was no longer a prejudice. MDs turned down KK in the 1950s because they were prejudiced against him since he didn’t have classical background and this caused them to miss big. I’ll bet that they’d prefer a singer with an average voice but decent classical training over Kishore Kumar (I oppose this). Yes the former was more functional but clearly the latter has magic in his voice and voice is most important in a singer.
Yes, guys like Raj Kapoor or Shammi Kapoor or Dev Anand were not musical authorities like the MDs but they did have great responsibility and have to oversee the music for movies. These guys were just as important and influential as the MDs – Shankar Jaikishan made it big because of Raj Kapoor and Shammi Kapoor could veto tunes and singers. I emphasize this because a big player in the 50s – Dev Anand was able to appreciate KK’s genius. He didn’t have the bias of MDs since he was’t a scientist of music – he was a natural lover of music and with that kind of free spirit – one cannot overlook the fresh voice of KK (btw – I hate Dev Anand – he doesn’t give credit to Rafi and he can keep dreaming of being able to sound like KK). Same goes for Rajesh Khanna and music lovers of the 70s – when that bias for science over art was lifted, KK prospered. My point is that Kishore could have sung many (NOT all) of the romantic numbers that Rafi sang and he’d sing them in the “romantic style” soft & mellow with his versatile voice. He just wasn’t given the opportunity due to bias rather than ability and this was revealed in hindsight. Now I’m trying trying to emphasize what KK COULD have done since he ALREADY DID do plenty in the 1950s. He has plenty of romantic numbers like the one I described above. Absolute gems. He showed ability for romantic songs and should have been given more gems.
2. “If you really talk of melody and barritone voice talk of Hemant Kumar (or Hemanta Mukherjee) or Mehdi Hasan. They are deep but not out of melody.
If you go by the “masculine, barritone” yardstick, then Talat Mehmood is no singer at all. I am surprised why he is called “King of Ghazals”. In the same yardstick Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan is crap! Rahat Fateh Ali Khan is a novice!”
I respect those guys as singers but the are not anywhere in the league of Rafi and Kishore for MY LIKING. I personally like Rafi’s qawwali’s much more than Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan simply because of his superior voice. Same with Rafi over Manna Dey. And the same with Kishore Kumar over anyone. The key difference though, and this is my big point, is that Kishore Kumar could sing soft if needed like Rafi, and he could sing powerful and resounding too. Mohd Rafi and the other sings could sing soft, could sing moderate and not so soft, but NO ONE could reach the energy and RESOUNDING and BOOMING voice of Kishore Kumar. It did NOT go both ways for other singers but it did for KK – that is why I rate his voice above others. That isw hat sets KK apart from the rest. We’ll probably elaborate more on this with analysis of songs.
3. “I think this debate is never going to end. Simply because, if you love deep, barritone voice you got to love Kishore and hate Rafi. If you love sweet, melodious voice you got to love Rafi and dislike Kishore.. There is no middle ground.”
I think fans are wrong to say Kishore couldn’t sing sweet and melodious. He could and those two songs I listed are a great example. “Mere Samne Wali Kirdki” was also a romantic number sung with a crisp, clean, soft yet not too soft that it doesn’t have a strong enunciated tone (sounds contradictory I know). That is what I call a voice. There IS middle ground with Kishore Kumar. Fans make the mistake of generalizing KK’s voice – it was too versatile to be generalized. On the other hand, Rafi could not reach deep baritone or that kind of power (unless he shifts to a very high pitch but that is something different). This is why KK wins. You have pointed out the heart of the debate and here I say it tilts to Kishore. Kishore’s voice had it ALL.
A. Kabhi Khud pe
Nope, I don’t see strong tonal strength here. Voice sounds kind of fuzzy. However, I think it has more to do with poor quality of recording and the MD’s directions (they told him to sing soft).
B. “Suhani Raat Dhal Chuki (it is amazing that this tonal quality was demonstrated in 1949, when instrumental aid was non-existent)”
I agree. Rafi shows great tonal ability here. Amazing! While I keep emphasized powerful and booming – that has limitations too (unless you’re KK). Rafi was one of the few whose voice was just right. I greatly enjoyed this song.
C. Jab Mohabbat Jawan Hota hai
Good, strong tone here. Really enjoyed the song too. I have to question the recording equipment. I still think that had KK sung this one, his inflections wouldn’t be as great as Rafi’s. His deeper voice would result in a slightly better enunciation of the words. Both versions would be gems.
D. Main nigahen tere chehre se hatayoon kaise
I notice moments in the song where Rafi goes to high pitch and then quickly shifts down. Asha Bhosle cited this as his greatest trait. I don’t think KK would have been able to sing this song exactly like Rafi with that kind of effortless scaling or level of inflection. However, I do think Rafi’s voice gets too soft sometimes and as a result that appears fuzzy. Maybe the obviously poor recording equipment didn’t do justice but KK wouldn’t have that issue for me of fuzziness for me. When Rafi sings “Nigahen” it is too soft for me sometimes.
E. “Aapne yaad dilaya to mujhe yaad aaya”
AMAZING SONG! THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE SONG! HIS VOICE HERE IS AMAZING. This is what I call TONAL STRENGTH and VOICE QUALITY and ENUNCIATION. I think the biggest issue is my personal preference against MDs preference for soft voice. I really liked this one.
“Now let me give you 5 more songs that will just sound HORRIBLE and HOARSE in “”POWERFUL, RESOUNDING, BOOMING” voice.”
Aha! Who says Kishore was capable of ONLY powerful, resounding? He could sing it mellow too with his versatile voice. Don’t generalize his voice! However, I think that Mohd Rafi’s voice was the most melodious of all male singers.
A. “Abhi na jao chod kar”
I think the Kishore Kumar of 1979 who sang “Aane Wala Pal” or the songs from the 1950s would be able to sing this song very well. I’m not certain it’d be better than Rafi’s version, but he’d still do a great rendering of this song. He would sound FAR from horrible.
B. “Door rehkar na karo baat”
This was a pretty loud and booming song if you ask me. I can’t tell if it is the recording equipment that screwed up some parts and made it sound fuzzy or if the voice got too soft at points (low frequency and so the resolution decreases i.e. reduced clarity of words). Great – sung well by Rafi, but I think Kishore’s superior voice would have been even better for this song. I’ll say millions of fans would agree with me as would RD Burman. Only problem is, there are moments in the song where KK cannot match the high pitch. Rafi’s scale was amazing.
B. “Thehriye hosh mein aa loon to chale jayega”
This song would sound great in Kishore’s CRISP, CLEAN, TONED, and romantic voice. The singer that sang for Dilli Ka Thug would do this song full justice. A little modifications would have to be made for Kishore to optimize him, but he could sing this song very well. His voice is amazing. I’m imagining this song in Kishore’s voice (NOT 1970s Kishore – not rough or too deep Kishore – that’d sound horrible – 1950s Kishore). It amazes me how biased MDs were to overlook such a great voice.
D. “Tum se kahoon ek baat”
Agreed. NO ONE could have sung this song better than Rafi. BRILLIANTLY sung. His voice sounds amazing here. Thanks for this great gem.
E. “Aaja tujhko pukare mera pyar”
Another amazing gem. KK could not have sung this song as well as Rafi – and this song was from late 60s I think when KK was catching up to Rafi. Great inflections here – few could match it. What a voice!
You might as well have added “Din Dhal Jaye.” Agree with SD, no one could have sang that gem better than Rafi Sahab. Amazing. One of the most brilliantly rendered songs ever.
“You will always find some odd Rafi songs because Rafi was given all kinds of songs while MDs protected KK within his comfort zone.”
I agree. Rafi was the most capapble singer of all. As mentioned before, Kalyanji-Anandji said that Rafi was the only singer for whom they never even considered IF he could sing the song they were composing.
“It is interesting that you find Rafi strained while all MDs ranging from Naushad to A.R Rahman feels otherwise (effortless scaling). Of the current day music directors, Rahman, Shantanu Moitra, Ismail and Vishal Sekhar swear by Rafi.”
I must have poorly expressed myself. I don’t question Rafi’s scaling ability – that’d be utterly stupid. However, when you do go to an extremely high pitch (the 5th Rakhwale on the live version of that gem), you’re not at ease and it is will show. Perhaps by strained I flet that his throat was kind of dry there in some parts of a song (no kidding, a glass of water would have helped). Don’t mean to sound disrespectful to the great Mohd Rafi. Sometime I’ll elaborate those parts. Just listening to Dard E Dil right now – what a voice.
While Rafi was a more capable singer (scale, inflections, etc) and second to none (if not #1) when it came to conveying emotions and AMAZING personality Kishore Kumar was just as good on the latter and his voice was SUPERIOR. His voice had everything AT THE SAME TIME – that is truly amazing. Mellow yet powerful. Contradictory but possible with Kishore’s voice. Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam was a mellow song sung with yet a powerful tone. KK’s superior voice raised him him to the top for me.
June 15th, 2007 at 5:10 am
“He never would say : give this song to xyz.. since I cannot sing it….. u know why I am saying this…here..”
>>> Kishore Kumar understood that some songs are better suited for a specific singer. Just as Rafi could not sing AS WELL as Kishore the song “Khaike Pan Banaraswala” (now I know that this song isn’t musically elegant but what’s more important is how Kishore can take such a song like that and make it a classic with his energy), there are some Rafi songs that Kishore could not sing AS well (vice versa). You should not take a jab at Kishore like this when he is being considerate, when he is being human, is being humble and respectful of Mohd Rafi.
The producers and distributors would always
dictate terms to the composers. They would say : We want
Rafi saab as the male play-back. , they knew the saleability
and the long term shelf life of RAFI songs… this went on for
almost three decades in the hindi film industry….
>>> The same can be said for Kishore Kumar in the 70s and 80s.
Secondly, the song Mana re tu kahe na dheer dhare .. is voted
by eminent new and yore music personalities as the best Hindi
song of the last 50 years in an OUTLOOK SURVEY last year….
More , the songs : Mana tadapat…, to Ganga ki mauj…
Bhagwaan… Oh duniya ke rakhwale…. and many other are
pure gems : and if any singer on this earth can sing these :
in RAFI-isque style, with emotions, feelings, diction, and everything
else included then I will bet and lose my - last penny….
More, Mohd Rafi-Lata has been voted the best singers of last
century by the Times of India Publications - survey….
So your lords voice tenor does not merit any discussion …and does
not hold water…
>>> Binuji – I don’t need an Outlook Survey to tell me, and millions of free spirited music lovers what to like and what not to like. I don’t need to read a newspaper to know who the top singer is. Music is free for all – a fan’s opinion – be it of any fan (devoid of ignorance) is just as great as another’s. Those reviews mean little to me and I could counter your reviews, I am sure, with many that have Kishore Kumar as the voice of the millennium.
Kishore Kumar’s unmatched energy is a big deal. It is that energy that makes him so popular among the youth (not just RDB’s type of music). Lots of energy and vigor is something that can be immediately and naturally be recognized by anyone – even a child who doesn’t know the language. KK is unmatched in that kind of energy and power and that is why he is so popular today.
Btw – as great of a singer Mohd Rafi was, he needed composers to make the most of his abilities (and vice versa). Remember, a great reason (not the greatest) for Rafi’s decline was that his MDs declined – Jaikishan’s death was a big blow to him. RDB took the lead and he shunned Rafi (to be different, not out of hostility or prejudice).
Part of being a great fan is accepting a singer being human. I am happy with Kishore Kumar for all his ups and downs. If I try to repaint the picture and artificially improve him, he is no longer Kishore Kumar and that is ultimate disrespect.
June 15th, 2007 at 8:06 am
Now I realize that my saying some Rafi classics could be better rendered by KK is heretic. That heresy is two sided. A watershed song for KK was indeed “Mere Sapano Ki Rani” (coincidentally, Rafi sang a song of the same title with KL Saigal). It was actually meant for Rafi and it isn’t a stretch for some Rafi fans to argue (heretically) that the Rafi version would have been superior. Some have committed the heresy of choosing Rafi’s version of Zindagi Ek Safar Hai Suhana - I don’t hold it against them - you really can’t go wrong either way.
I’ve said many times that Rafi’s voice could get too soft and therefore fuzzy. When you sing at a low pitch, the frequency is lower so the wavelength is greater and therefore the resolution (detail clarity of voice) can suffer. I do believe that if Rafi recorded with today’s technology, I probably would not have made those complaints.
Listen to Dard E Dil: my golden collection version is 7:03 long. Listen to his voice at 2:53 when he sings “kur” rahi hai shayari. The way his voice sounds when he sings “kur.” It sounds worn (although many 1980 Rafi songs where his voice is par excellent - John Johnny Janardhan comes immediately to mind - no one could have sung that song better than Rafi). He probably deliberately did it. I wonder why, I’m just curious. Perhaps an artistic decision. Maybe I’m looking into it too microscopically.
btw…i revise my review of
Main nigahen tere chehre se hatayoon
He doesn’t sound fuzzy at any moment, just very soft. Silly me.
June 15th, 2007 at 8:07 am
Perhaps later I will better clarify what I mean by ‘fuzzy.’ not now
June 15th, 2007 at 10:41 am
So, as people are making allegations that bengali people like kishore, as he is a “bengali”, I see some “muslims” are fighting for Rafi. Is it just a coincidence? Go to your “Rafi website” and show the affection.
June 15th, 2007 at 11:08 am
Shridip,
>>>If the classical music training and knowledge are important in film songs, most of the songs were sung by Pt. Jasraj, Bhimsen Joshi etc. Nobody remembers Md. Rafi today.
Really, which is why he was judged at the best male singer by a group of musicians including your Kishore clones. He is very popular around the world, his popularity increases day by day, unless you have facts to back your arguments, don’t write such pathetic comments.
>>>The songs which touches the heart of people are considered the best. Kishorda is far better than Rafi in this manner. His voice contained heroism itself, nomatter for whom he was plybacking.
This is purely subjective.
>>>If Kishorda has started his fulfledged career earlier even Rajendra kumar or Shammi kapoor etc. could touch the heights of Amitabh bacchan and Rajesh Khanna.
What’s with this Rajesh K and Amitabh superstardom ?. Because Kishore sang the majority for them it doesn’t prove anything. You actually want to think that Kishore would have added the same dimension to Rajendra K or Shammi that Rafi did ?. This is outright hilarious.
>>>Our modern filmy music is the gift of tradition Kishorda has set. I can say that singers like Amit Kumar, Kumar Sanu, Abhijeet are following the tradition of Kishorda.
LOL modern film music was brought in with the likes of S-J, definitely not Kishore. Amit Kumar, Abhijeet and Kumar Sanu are nothing special.
>>>Udit narayan, Sonu Nigam etc. have voice tone like Md. Rafi but they also are following the tradition of Kishorda only.
Please tell me you don’t really mean this because if you do, there is no point in taking this discussion further.
>>>Md. Rafi has not set any tradition. He was singing filmy songs in a classical tradition. He was neither the best classical singer nor best filmy singer.
Really, which is why he dominated the field for such a long time, which is why he sang in each and every possible genre, both things Kishore could not do. So now who do you think was the best ?. Your argument for classical tradition holds no ground as it doesn’t even relate to what you’re talking about. Btw Rafi set the benchmark of playback singing and took the art to such a high level, if that’s not a tradtion then nothing by anyone else is.
>>>Why Md. Rafi was so famous and considered as a legend? Because he was a “Ujjad gamma erando pradhan” in starting of the Indian film industry. This Gujarati proverb means - In the area where no trees or vegetation are there, people find even the ‘erando (Not so usefull tree)’ as the best.
Really, so with the likes of Mukesh, Talat, Hemant, Manna etc. there was no one around ?. Its no wonder you dislike classical singing, because Kishore had no classical training at all and even if he did he still would not have reached Rafi’s standards.
>>>I truly believe that those music directors or singers who every time raise the flags of classical singing in filmy songs are super ficious.
Really, why so ?.
>>>If we put them in classical music industry (having great personalities like Hariprasad Chorasiya, Shiv Kumar Sharma, Zakir Husain etc.) they will be prooven as rejected pieces of trash.
Who says we would like to put them in that category ?. Same with putting those classical specialists in film music, they will be rejected a thousand times more. What’s your point here ?
>>>So stop commenting that Rafi has greater music knowledge and greater voice quality. His voice is like a dove. Ghu, ghu…..
Why is it too hard to accept the truth ?. You can go on and on about Kishore, but whatever silly arguments you come out with won’t change the fact that Rafi was the benchmark, the supreme. Btw Rafi did have greater voice quality and greater music knowlegde.
June 15th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
>>>Agreed, those are not the best traits for a romantic number. Kishore Kumar had a versatile voice that he could modulate very well. When needed, his voice was smooth and mellow. Case in point: “Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam” (one of greatest displays of voice for me – mellow yet powerful at the same time) from Dilli Ka Thug and “Ek Ladki…Milli Ek Ajnabise” from Chalti Naam Ka Gaadi are two great romantic songs that rank with the very best. No list of romantic songs is complete without these two. Clearly, Kishore does NOT fail.
Kishore does not fail but its a total mistake comparing him with Rafi in any genre. What modulation are you talking about ?. Could he sound like any actor he playbacked for with the exception of Dev and Rajesh Khanna. Kishore did not have a versatile voice, if he did his career would have taken off much before 1970.
>>>You are much more knowledgeable with music than I am but I’ll dare to say you made a mistake, a mistake that many fans make. The style and values of music were greatly different in 1950s (romantic) than in 1970s (action). You can’t take 1970s Kishore and send him to 1950s romantic era – he’d be out of phase with his traits. He was powerful and resounding to cater to the 1970s but he’d make his voice mellow and smooth to cater to the different values of the 1950s (he sort of did that in the classic song Aane Wala Pal 1979 – how do you describe his voice here?). 1950s Kishore would and DID deliver romantic numbers. This leads to the question, “Why did he struggle in the 1950s then?”
He struggled because he simply could not sing any type of song. The music in the 50’s and 60’s was much richer in terms of compositions, MD’s etc. compared to the 70’s. The majority did not want to take a chance with Kishore and that is understandable. Who is taking Kishore of the 70’s and sending him to the 50’s ?.
>>>Music in the 1950s much more science and less art and so not surprisingly classical training was highly emphasized. MDs overlooked Kishore’s artistic traits – which would be fine except for one thing.
Less art ?. I don’t know what you mean by that, it was quite a creative period.
>>>This also meant that the MDs overlooked his intrinsic, superior voice and they missed big (they were VERY LUCKY to have another great singer in Rafi to COVER that great miss but this is not my point as I will elaborate later).
Not really, they didn’t miss anything at all because Kishore did not have the range nor the voice to sing the majority types of songs. Yes, Rafi was there and in that sense they were very lucky.
>>>A daring statement I know but I back it with the notion that the great SD Burman later ‘corrected’ his mistake by balancing more equally between Rafi & Kishore.
Do you know whay he did that ?. First of all Kishore became popular so he catered to him, secondly both him and RD felt that since KK had lost out in the 50’s and 60’s, here was a chance for him to get many songs. If you haven’t noticed, compositions in the 70’s were not as difficult as in the 50’s or 60’s. Kishore restricted SDB’s compositional range but SD noticed that in the 70’s he didn’t have to compose songs like those in the 50’s and 60’s, the 70’s was a different period. If at all there was a miss, it was SDB-Rafi in the 70’s.
>>>In the 1970s he used Kishore Kumar much more and it wasn’t entirely just because the producers demanded Kishore during the wave. It wasn’t just because the values of music had shifted to Kishore’s forte. It was also becusse there was no longer a prejudice.
Not really, it had alot to do with what you mentioned. Kishore wanted to go back home in 1967, RD told him to stay back. Without the Burmans, I think things would be different.
>>>MDs turned down KK in the 1950s because they were prejudiced against him since he didn’t have classical background and this caused them to miss big. I’ll bet that they’d prefer a singer with an average voice but decent classical training over Kishore Kumar (I oppose this). Yes the former was more functional but clearly the latter has magic in his voice and voice is most important in a singer.
What magic are you talking about ?. For this very reason, lack of is why MD’s did not go to him. He was very much there from the late forties, there was no prejudiced against him, its just that he wasn’t considered even a second rate singer at that time. I don’t think making up excuses is going to get us anywhere.
>>>Yes, guys like Raj Kapoor or Shammi Kapoor or Dev Anand were not musical authorities like the MDs but they did have great responsibility and have to oversee the music for movies. These guys were just as important and influential as the MDs – Shankar Jaikishan made it big because of Raj Kapoor and Shammi Kapoor could veto tunes and singers.
S-J made it big because of their musical talent, intitally RK helped them, but after that their music sold, without the help of anyone.
I emphasize this because a big player in the 50s – Dev Anand was able to appreciate KK’s genius. He didn’t have the bias of MDs since he was’t a scientist of music – he was a natural lover of music and with that kind of free spirit – one cannot overlook the fresh voice of KK (btw – I hate Dev Anand – he doesn’t give credit to Rafi and he can keep dreaming of being able to sound like KK).
It was SDB who fixed KK on Dev right from before, and Dev and KK were also good friends so its understandable. Yet KK would not have been able to sing the classics Rafi sang for Dev. Even SDB knew this which is why the cream of Dev came with Rafi.
>>>Same goes for Rajesh Khanna and music lovers of the 70s – when that bias for science over art was lifted, KK prospered.
Times changed, KK got a break, no bias here.
My point is that Kishore could have sung many (NOT all) of the romantic numbers that Rafi sang and he’d sing them in the “romantic style” soft & mellow with his versatile voice.
Totally disagree, Kishore did not have a quarter of the voice Rafi had. He was good in his own way, but not a versatile voice able to cover many genres as well as modulate for every actor.
>>>He just wasn’t given the opportunity due to bias rather than ability and this was revealed in hindsight.
Kalyanji made the comment, that KK was not suited for the 50’s and 60’s. Take Rafi, he was suited for any decade, 40’s, 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s.
>>>Now I’m trying trying to emphasize what KK COULD have done since he ALREADY DID do plenty in the 1950s. He has plenty of romantic numbers like the one I described above. Absolute gems. He showed ability for romantic songs and should have been given more gems.
Yes he should have been given more gems, but MD’s knew his weaknesses and did not take him for the majority of their numbers. Unless you’re saying MD’s did not know what they were doing back then.
>>>I respect those guys as singers but the are not anywhere in the league of Rafi and Kishore for MY LIKING. I personally like Rafi’s qawwali’s much more than Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan simply because of his superior voice. Same with Rafi over Manna Dey. And the same with Kishore Kumar over anyone. The key difference though, and this is my big point, is that Kishore Kumar could sing soft if needed like Rafi, and he could sing powerful and resounding too. Mohd Rafi and the other sings could sing soft, could sing moderate and not so soft, but NO ONE could reach the energy and RESOUNDING and BOOMING voice of Kishore Kumar.
This Booming and Resounding effect is personal, I can list many songs where Rafi could sound like that. Sounding Booming and Resounding is my opinion does not make a singer great. Kishore did not have as meledious nor as sweet a voice as Rafi so maybe he had to sing like that in order to make up for it. To me that’s just loud, and not what singing is about.
>>>It did NOT go both ways for other singers but it did for KK – that is why I rate his voice above others. That isw hat sets KK apart from the rest. We’ll probably elaborate more on this with analysis of songs.
It went ALL ways for Rafi, he could sing softly, with punch, melediously, any type of voice and Rafi is there.
>>>I think fans are wrong to say Kishore couldn’t sing sweet and melodious. He could and those two songs I listed are a great example. “Mere Samne Wali Kirdki” was also a romantic number sung with a crisp, clean, soft yet not too soft that it doesn’t have a strong enunciated tone (sounds contradictory I know). That is what I call a voice. There IS middle ground with Kishore Kumar. Fans make the mistake of generalizing KK’s voice – it was too versatile to be generalized.
No one is saying he could not sing romantic songs. For me Kishore is not middle ground. For me his voice was good but not as sweet and clear as Rafi, definitely not versatile, his bass could not cover up the other facets that his voice did not have.
>>>On the other hand, Rafi could not reach deep baritone or that kind of power (unless he shifts to a very high pitch but that is something different).
I think you haven’t listened to a lot of Rafi songs to be making such comments. Rafi has many songs in deep baritone.
>>>This is why KK wins. You have pointed out the heart of the debate and here I say it tilts to Kishore. Kishore’s voice had it ALL.
Not really but everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If his voice had it all, he would not have to wait 20 + years for a break. Ofcourse we have been hearing excuses as to why this did not happen.
Kishore was a good singer within his own range, but the problem is comparing him with Rafi, they are two poles apart.
June 15th, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Dear Sanjay,
I went quickly through your recent posts and feel bad that I reacted rather quickly to one of your earlier posts regarding rock ‘n roll music. You are a very knowledgabe KK fan and I have the utmost respect for such people. And I agree that Kishore could have been used much more often than he was in the 50s and the 60s.
There’s one point I’d like to make, though. I think you guys are making too much of songs like “Khaike pan banaras-wala”. Someone on this forum had remarked earlier that this is the best folk song ever. The popularity of this song may have more to do with the fact that Amitabh sang it for a hit film. Kishore has so many other songs that are infinitely better than “Khaike pan”. Folk music is not Kishore’s forte; he may have sung a few good folksy songs, but the real players there are Lata, Manna, Rafi and Mukesh (of course, I’m ignoring regional singers like Nirmalendu Choudhury who was simply superb).
The younger generation does not watch Dilip Kumar, that’s why I guess they are not aware of “Nain Lad Jai Hain”, the gem Rafi sang for him in Gunga Jumna. It’s one of my favourite Naushad compositions. Listen to Rafi’s Bhojpuri enunciation and the force with which he sang. You’ll have to concede that Rafi had a 7-year disadvantage when it came to Amitabh and those seven years could have further tilted the popularity scale in his favour had he been alive. Surely, if Munna Aziz and Shabbir Kumar could have got so many songs in the 80s (including RD’s), Rafi would have grabbed many more. Don’t you agree?
Finally, I would like to know your views on “Khaike pan” vis-a-vis the eternal favourite from Shree 420: “Ramaiya Vastavaiya”.
June 15th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
Sanjay:
Since you are UNDOUBTEDLY the most informed and music-aware KK fan here, I will only restrict my answers to your points. The others are just noise.
“Agreed, those are not the best traits for a romantic number. Kishore Kumar had a versatile voice that he could modulate very well. When needed, his voice was smooth and mellow. Case in point: “Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam” (one of greatest displays of voice for me – mellow yet powerful at the same time) from Dilli Ka Thug and “Ek Ladki…Milli Ek Ajnabise” from Chalti Naam Ka Gaadi are two great romantic songs that rank with the very best. No list of romantic songs is complete without these two. Clearly, Kishore does NOT fail.”
—I just loved Kishore of the 1950s and early 60s. The two songs you mentioned are from that period. I really think if I had to love Kishore’s voice, I would pick 1950-1960s from Paying Guest to Door Ka Rahi. Incidently and paradoxically, when KK started shooting to fame his voice started having the “enforced heroism” accentuated by affected pronunciation that took away the softness from songs. Take “Mere dildaar ka bakhpan” for example, the song which we have discussed about. Kishore sings it like (notice the spelling):
“Merre dildhhaar kha bakhhpan”–It is affected. I never liked his pronouncing “r” as “rrr” or “z” as “zzzz”, something that was clearly absent in the Kishore of the 50s.
The other point about the song, if you have watched the video, is that KK’s voice is totally disconnected from Jeetendra’s voice. Replace Jeetendra with Bacchan or Balraj Sahni, you will get the same tone. Rafi does try to be Rishi in that song (but as I said, I expected better). Rafi can never emulate Bacchan. But he makes an effort to modulate according to the actor and situation.
In the 1970s KK did sing some soft numbers such as “Chookar Mere manko”. But as I mentioned in earlier posts, none of these were sung in natural voice. Just as Rafi’s natural voice was not masculine, KK’s natural voice ws not sweet. In the 1970s whenever he sang sweetly, it had to be in falsetto (which is never appreciated by hardcore musicians). Abhijeet has picked up the trend and 100% of Abhijeet’s songs are sung in falsetto, though they may sound sweet to the ears.
As you have admitted going through my list, there are a good number of songs where Rafi would edge Kishore (and I admit there are a good number of songs where KK would sound better). And thanks for acknowldeging the tonal quality of Rafi in those songs. These are great singers-they can do whatever they like..It is just a matter of what is the natural style..Rafi’s strongest point as I said was NOT HIS VOICE. It was his ability to render a mood/situation by shortening or lengthening the words, stressing on letters and maatras..As rightly pointed out “his harkatein and taan” were inimitable. That’s why Manna could not be Rafi. That’s why Sonu Nigam can try for the rest of his life but would never leave the mark as Rafi. When Rafi sang “Nafrat Ki duniya” the whole theatre cried with him. When he sang “Badi door se” the entire theatre had the feeling of a stranger in a unknown country.
There is merit in this debate because Kishore did have the effect to scale the heights that Rafi reached. But it is pointless in some ways because it really depends on which NATURAL style you want. To my ears Rafi’s style (again NOT ONLY VOICE) was superior.
Anyway, since you have a good ear and to me someone who is detined to be a Rafi fan with age (just like me and many others), let me recommend some numbers for you.
1. Haseen dilruba (Roop tera mastana)-the most seductive male number of the 1970s. Unfortunately, this gem got submerged in the Kishore wave of 1972-73.
2. Aap ki haseen rukh pe aaj naya noor hai- you must have heard this one. Great tonal quality.
3. Kahin ek masoom nazook si ladki (Shankar Hussain)- If I were a music director, I would re-release the song today, so that people know what they missed out on . This ABSOLUTE GEM did not get its due, despite being one of the MOST ROMANTIC NUMBERS OF THE CENTURY. It is sad. It is unfortunate.. But should not take away the credit from the singer.
Finally, to all those who mentioned “Khaike Paan banaraswala”…If you want to distinguish between popular song and good folk song listen to “Nain lad jai we” (Ganaga Jumna). The first one is popular and the second one is authentic.
——————-
June 15th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Sanjay:
Since you are UNDOUBTEDLY the most informed and music-aware KK fan here, I will only restrict my answers to your points. The others are just noise.
“Agreed, those are not the best traits for a romantic number. Kishore Kumar had a versatile voice that he could modulate very well. When needed, his voice was smooth and mellow. Case in point: “Yeh Raate Yeh Mausam” (one of greatest displays of voice for me – mellow yet powerful at the same time) from Dilli Ka Thug and “Ek Ladki…Milli Ek Ajnabise” from Chalti Naam Ka Gaadi are two great romantic songs that rank with the very best. No list of romantic songs is complete without these two. Clearly, Kishore does NOT fail.”
—I just loved Kishore of the 1950s and early 60s. The two songs you mentioned are from that period. I really think if I had to love Kishore’s voice, I would pick 1950-1960s from Paying Guest to Door Ka Rahi. Incidently and paradoxically, when KK started shooting to fame his voice started having the “enforced heroism”, accentuated by affected pronunciation that took away the softness from songs. Take “Mere dildaar ka bakhpan” for example, the song which we have discussed about. Kishore sings it like (notice the spelling):
“Merre dildhhaar kha bakhhpan”–It is affected. I never liked his pronouncing “r” as “rrr” or “z” as “zzzz”, something that was clearly absent in the Kishore of the 50s.
The other point about the song, if you have watched the video, is that KK’s voice is totally disconnected from Jeetendra’s voice. Replace Jeetendra with Bacchan or Balraj Sahni, you will get the same tone. Rafi does try to be Rishi in that song (but as I said, I expected better). Rafi can never emulate Bacchan. But he makes an effort to modulate according to the actor and situation.
In the 1970s KK did sing some soft numbers such as “Chookar Mere manko”. But as I mentioned in earlier posts, none of these were sung in natural voice. Just as Rafi’s natural voice was not masculine, KK’s natural voice ws not sweet. In the 1970s whenever he sang sweetly, it had to be in falsetto (which is never appreciated by hardcore musicians). Abhijeet has picked up the trend and 100% of Abhijeet’s songs are sung in falsetto, though they may sound sweet to the ears.
As you have admitted going through my list, there are a good number of songs where Rafi would edge Kishore (and I admit there are a good number of songs where KK would sound better). And thanks for acknowldeging the tonal quality of Rafi in those songs. These are great singers-they can do whatever they like..It is just a matter of what is the natural style..Rafi’s strongest point as I said was NOT HIS VOICE. It was his ability to render a mood/situation by shortening or lengthening the words, stressing on letters and maatras..As Lataji rightly pointed out, “his harkatein and taan” were inimitable. That’s why Manna could not be Rafi. That’s why Sonu Nigam can try for the rest of his life but would never leave the mark as Rafi. When Rafi sang “Nafrat Ki duniya”, the whole theatre cried with him. When he sang “Badi door se”, the entire theatre had the feeling of a stranger in a unknown country.
There is merit in this debate because Kishore did have the effect to scale the heights that Rafi reached. But it is pointless in some ways, because it really depends on which NATURAL style you want. To my ears, Rafi’s style (again NOT ONLY VOICE) was superior.
Anyway, since you have a good ear and to me someone who is destined to be a Rafi fan with age (just like me and many others), let me recommend some numbers for you.
1. Haseen dilruba (Roop tera mastana)-the most seductive male number of the 1970s. Unfortunately, this gem got submerged in the Kishore wave of 1972-73.
2. Aap ki haseen rukh pe aaj naya noor hai- you must have heard this one. Great tonal quality.
3. Kahin ek masoom nazook si ladki (Shankar Hussain)- If I were a music director, I would re-release the song today, so that people know what they missed out on . This ABSOLUTE GEM did not get its due, despite being one of the MOST ROMANTIC NUMBERS OF THE CENTURY. It is sad. It is unfortunate.. But should not take away the credit from the singer.
Finally, to all those who mentioned “Khaike Paan banaraswala”…If you want to distinguish between popular song and good folk song, listen to another Bhojpuri-“Nain lad jai we” (Ganaga Jumna). The first one is popular, and the second one is authentic Bhojpuri.
——————-
June 15th, 2007 at 11:48 pm
Kishore kumar for all those who dont know has won seven filmfare the highest among male playback singers. Rafi has won six in all. So there you go.
So we all know who is the best. Common dont say that he won four after rafi passed away. That would be a lame excuse. Statistics dont lie.
If you claim him to be the best, then your records should speak for it.
In terms of civilian awards, LM has won Bharat Ratna but rafi had to settle for much less. So he again fared second best. So sad even the govt did not consider him so special as our rafian think him to be.
Kishore kumar is to playback singing what AB is to bollywood and Tendulkar is to cricket “simply uncomparable”.
The reason kk is compared to tendulkar is coz to have a voice like kk is god gifted. All the sur-taal of rafi can be learnt. Remember Manna dey was anyday a better classical singer than rafi.
Rafi is to playback singing what Dilip kumar is to bollywood and Rahul Dravid is to cricket. Both Dilip kumar and Dravid are highly technically skills, are trained but ask any true cricket lover who does he prefer to watch dravid or tendulkar. The answer would be Tendulkar and similarly for the sheer pleasure of listening it would be kishore kumar anyday over rafi.
The so called rafi fans are those who were earlier kk fans but under the pressure of Parents-remember above 45 rafi patronage have converted there innocent kids to rafi loyalist. This is simple conditioning and brain washing of innocent kids (rafians).
To sum up, anyone can become a rafi but none can become KK.
June 15th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
I am glad that someone else has pointed out “Nain Lad Jai Hain”. It’s so pure that you’d think that a Bhojpuri folk singer is singing it. Naushad never compromised and ultimately paid a heavy price. There’s another Rafi song in that genre that most of you may not have even heard. It’s “Pipara ke patwa” composed by Pt. Ravi Shankar for Godaan, based on Munshi Premchand’s famous short story. I didn’t find it on youtube or musicindiaonline, otherwise I’d have sent you the link. Another beautiful song in this genre is Manna’s “Chalat musafir” from Teesri Kasam, composed by Shankar.
In folk, my favourite MDs are SD, SJ, Salil, Naushad, OP and RD. While Naushad was influenced by the folk music of UP and Bihar, OP brought bhangra and punjabi rhythm to the fore. Salil, SD and RD were all influenced by the folk music of the northeast (Assam, Manipur, Sikkim, Nepal) but SD had the added advantage of himself being an exponent of bhatiyali (Bengal’s boatman song). From where Shankar (a Punjabi who grew up in AP) and Jaikishan (a Gujarati) received their influences, I’m not sure; all I can say is that right from Barsaat all the way down to Mera Naam Joker, they produced magic. But never discount Raj Kapoor’s influence; that man undestood music.
June 16th, 2007 at 3:32 am
Sudip,
Agree with your comments however I feel one of Rafi’s most strongest points was definitely his voice. It was so unique, no rough edges, no shrillness, not alot of bass and not too thin, just perfect with the ability to modulate for each and every actor. Add to this the melody and sweetness factor and there hasn’t been a better voice in the industry than his. You cannot compare his voice to that of anyone else’s, its out of reach.
Rafi would have definitely got alot more songs for Amitabh had he lived in the 80’s. Really though, singing for Amitabh doesn’t make you the greatest singer.
June 16th, 2007 at 6:19 am
Sanjay wrote:
“>>> Binuji – I don’t need an Outlook Survey to tell me, and millions of free spirited music lovers what to like and what not to like. I don’t need to read a newspaper to know who the top singer is. Music is free for all – a fan’s opinion – be it of any fan (devoid of ignorance) is just as great as another’s. Those reviews mean little to me and I could counter your reviews, I am sure, with many that have Kishore Kumar as the voice of the millennium.”
–Sanjay: I beg to differ with you on this one. The reason why MD’s and co-singer’s opinions are important is not that they have more knowledge of music than lesser mortals like us, but because some of them had first-hand accounts of how these songs were rendered. What fans listen to is the end product of a song which could have been sung with “n” rehearsals/takes, or over “m” days or “t” tracks, with “surround” echo-aided recording. None of us are privy to what happens in the recording studio behind the microphone. SD, SJ, LP, RD or OP made judgements from there. And none of us know how the singers sounded really in an unaided environment.
Most of the musicians or music arrangers (and I had the privilege of meeting a couple) who had watched Rafi from close, felt that he was the only singer who sang with “true” voice. The reason you find those minute fuzziness is that he never hid it with falsetto, it was always a true voice regardless of the range.
–Talking of technicalities, Kishore’s rise owed as much to technology as to the Burmans. Towards the end of the 60’s two things happened on the technology front. 1. More instrumentation owing to Western influence 2. Introduction of a more sensitive recording systems, that would capture every breath and accentuate every ups or downs. I learnt from Manna De’s account that Talat Mehmood perished because of #2. Talat’s quivering voice was over-accentuated by the sensitive recording equipment, so much so, that he had to leave the playback singing scene entirely. Everyone struggled other than Kishore. Because of Kishore’s deep, barritone voice he was able to overcome both the changes. The voice outpowered both instrumentation and sensitive recording instruments. Manna also mentioned that despite initial struggles, Rafi was able to adapt to it thanks to his relentless “riyaz”.
–Talking of voice, you did mention the energy in Kishore’s voice which is undeniable. But you forgot (or you do not care for) the natural HUSKINESS in Rafi’s voice that makes it seductive and haunting. Kishore could have well sung “Sau baar janam lenge”, but he would never have the huskiness that makes the song mystic and haunting..That was natural in Rafi. Kishore’s voice was drier, with less drama in it.
–The other aspect of Kishore’s voice was that because of the power and energy it lacked the melancholy that sad songs needed. The richness in the voice was so much (I hold the same opinion about Asha Bhosle) that it would never make one depressed. Let me make a very esoteric statement- I think if a sad song sounds “enjoyable” (observed/verified from a simple fact that such songs are played in public occasions), there has to be something wrong with the rendition. A sad song is NOT supposed to raise a “WOW!!!”, it is supposed to make depressed over days. A sad song should have ZERO embellishments and should soak the listener in misery. That’s what Mukesh was so good at. If you listen to the “Do Badan” songs (which is possibly the only film with 4 sad songs), you feel sad. None of the songs have any energy, nor any glamor…While I would rarely repeat those songs on my stereo (other than Raha Gardishon Mein Hardam), there lies the real success in their rendition. Sounds paradoxical?? It is like a villain. A villain should make you hate him. Similarly a sad song should make you hate it! Rafi goes very close (to me, higher than) Mukesh in achieving that. Kishore puts a lot of feeling in those songs, and leaks the voice once in a while to make it sound good, but I doubt he really depresses anyone. If I had to commit suicide I would possibly listen to Rafi’s “meri Awaaz suno” before hanging myself-so depressing, so much pathos!!
June 16th, 2007 at 9:10 am
Anonymous : U are expressing a very sectarian view ..
but I agree that u have a right to say it ; just as we have
the right to say : Mohd Rafi - is the most influential playback
of our time…. No singer alike his capacity or ability has surfaced
so far … and will never surface …. is my guess…..
We can have many Kishore Kumars - for his songs were very
easy and a large number of people can sing it….
on the contrary, even trained singers find it difficult to sing
RAFI songs.. and they come somewhere near to 60% only I guess..
However , we love Kishore Kumar songs - the number of these
does’nt matter …
binu nair…
June 16th, 2007 at 9:51 am
>>>Kishore kumar for all those who dont know has won seven filmfare the highest among male playback singers. Rafi has won six in all. So there you go.
Filmfare awards don’t make a singer better than the other. Madan Mohan hardly got any awards, are you going to tell me Nadeem Shravan who have won more awards are better than him ?.
So we all know who is the best. Common dont say that he won four after rafi passed away. That would be a lame excuse.
Maybe lame to you but indeed the truth. Kishore had no competition after 1980.
>>>If you claim him to be the best, then your records should speak for it.
In terms of civilian awards, LM has won Bharat Ratna but rafi had to settle for much less. So he again fared second best. So sad even the govt did not consider him so special as our rafian think him to be.
LOL and where is Kishore in all this. The government hasn’t even considered Kishore for a Padma Shree, so where are you getting with this argument of yours ?. Its totally bogus. Awards don’t speak about talent.
>>>Kishore kumar is to playback singing what AB is to bollywood and Tendulkar is to cricket “simply uncomparable”.
Really ?. I don’t think this is the view of the majority of musicians and industry insiders. AB is overhyped big time, no big deal.
>>>The reason kk is compared to tendulkar is coz to have a voice like kk is god gifted. All the sur-taal of rafi can be learnt. Remember Manna dey was anyday a better classical singer than rafi.
Not really, Rafi could sing classical songs as good and even better than Manna owing to his pure range. All the sur and taal of rafi cannot be learnt, it is as you put it, “God Gifted”, sorry to say Kishore is miles behind in this aspect.
Rafi is to playback singing what Dilip kumar is to bollywood and Rahul Dravid is to cricket. Both Dilip kumar and Dravid are highly technically skills, are trained but ask any true cricket lover who does he prefer to watch dravid or tendulkar.
Wrong comparison buddy, Dilip is regarded as the Icon of Acting even by the overhyped Amitabh, none is comparable to him just as none is comparable to Rafi in playback singing. Show me a list of genres that Kishore has truly covered, I am sure you’ll have a tough time coming up with it.
>>>The answer would be Tendulkar and similarly for the sheer pleasure of listening it would be kishore kumar anyday over rafi.
This is truly subjective, you’re not proving anything.
>>>The so called rafi fans are those who were earlier kk fans but under the pressure of Parents-remember above 45 rafi patronage have converted there innocent kids to rafi loyalist. This is simple conditioning and brain washing of innocent kids (rafians).
LOL and you are getting this info from ?. Do you speak for these people, are you their PR man ?.
>>>To sum up, anyone can become a rafi but none can become KK.
Really, you must be kidding me truly, I really have doubts about your musical background.
June 16th, 2007 at 10:47 am
“The so called rafi fans are those who were earlier kk fans but under the pressure of Parents-remember above 45 rafi patronage have converted there innocent kids to rafi loyalist. ”
–So what happened to your parents? Or are they anonymous as well?
June 16th, 2007 at 11:40 am
1. “I beg to differ with you on this one. The reason why MD’s and co-singer’s opinions are important is not that they have more knowledge of music than lesser mortals like us, but because some of them had first-hand accounts of how these songs were rendered. What fans listen to is the end product of a song which could have been sung with “n” rehearsals/takes, or over “m” days or “t” tracks, with “surround” echo-aided recording. None of us are privy to what happens in the recording studio behind the microphone. SD, SJ, LP, RD or OP made judgements from there.”
I can live with that. Definitely people like SJ or Lata Mangeshkar have greater authority than a fan with these accounts. However, I’m sometimes skeptical of magazines and such because there are a lot of politics and sometimes people are biased (certainly the case with someone like Anil Biswas). I do agree with the general notion.
2. “And none of us know how the singers sounded really in an unaided environment.”
That is also true but I just want to add that Mohd Rafi, Kishore Kumar, and Lata Mangeshkar sound EXCELLENT when performing live – without equipment. The 1983 concert at Wembley – Lata & Kishore sang some songs even better than the studio version. Rafi’s live version song (the one you posted) – even better than the film version – love the last seconds of it (although he did do it again when a more mature singer).
3. “Most of the musicians or music arrangers (and I had the privilege of meeting a couple) who had watched Rafi from close, felt that he was the only singer who sang with “true” voice. The reason you find those minute fuzziness is that he never hid it with falsetto, it was always a true voice regardless of the range.”
I am better informed now. Good to know.
4. “Talat Mehmood perished because of #2.”
I’ve only heard one song of his – Chana Jor Gharam Babu. I liked his part of the song – but I did feel it was way too soft. Such a voice can’t thrive in the action era. Mohd Rafi’s voice could be strong if needed – it is a testament to his greatness, his ability, his versatility, his magic, that whatever the times – he was always #1 from late 1940s right till his death. NO ONE else could have done (nor did it).
5. “Because of Kishore’s deep, barritone voice he was able to overcome both the changes. The voice outpowered both instrumentation and sensitive recording instruments.”
Exactly.
6. “Sau baar janam lenge”
Incidentally, I’ve had this one my golden collection set for a long time (I have all 9 CDs of Rafi). First time I heard it. It is rendered very well. Someone who knows Hindi and is familiar with classic music will appreciate this. However, this slow song doesn’t have a lot of energy (as designed) but plenty of emotions and depth. Without that energy, it loses the trait of being immediately appreciable for ANYONE except from that group I mentioned. This, as unfair as it is, means that the song won’t be timeless as something with immediately recognizable energy, especially from a fan of the coming generations who isn’t as familiar with the classical gems.
7. “Let me make a very esoteric statement- I think if a sad song sounds “enjoyable” (observed/verified from a simple fact that such songs are played in public occasions), there has to be something wrong with the rendition.”
This is a very interesting point. That is exactly my problem with Mohammed Rafi. One of my all time favorite songs (in a general category too!) is Rafi’s “Patthar Ke Sanam.” This is one of the most PERFECTLY RENDERED songs I have ever heard. Trouble is, it is supposed to be a sad song. When I hear it, I become so elated, so impressed, so taken back by the perfection of the voice and the small details of expression (harkatein and taan) that it seems weird as to why Waheeda Rehman is crying. Yes, the voice has sadness as he sings “Patthar” but the overall superiority of the rendition overcomes that sadness.
That is a big problem with Rafi – sometimes his voice and rendition is too good for sad songs. His song “Kush Rahe Tu Sada” – again, I’m half half. He gives the right emotions of sadness, but I’m just amazed at his melody – listen to that last line of the song – how melodious his voice is! It is so impressive that you lose sadness. Same problem with “Tere Galiyon Mein” from Hawas. Right emotions – but superiority of voice and rendition make you say “wow” rather than cry.
On the other hand, Kishore’s voice is not as rich as Rafi’s. It always has that strength (baritone) but the energy can be removed as Kishore
modulates his voice to be mellow.
Mukesh is a great singer and one of my favorites – he had his niche in the industry and was irreplaceable and an all time great. However, his voice wasn’t as rich as Kishore’s and certainly not as rich as Rafi’s and that is why he was the best for sad songs. If he sang “Patthar Ke Sanam” – the song wouldn’t be nearly as good as Rafi’s – but it would do the job of making the song sad better – because his voice isn’t as rich. The saddest song I’ve ever heard was “Dost Dost Na Rahe” from Sangam, but my favorite sad song that also actually does make me sad is “O Saathi Re” and it proves that Kishore is great for sad songs when he modulates his voice.
In “O Saathi Re” Kishore maintains his voice strength (baritone naturally makes it strong) but reduces the energy by slowing down and modulating his voice to be mellow. It isn’t that same powerful voice from the songs of say, “Janemun Tum Kamal Kharti Ho” from Trishul. However, that heavy voice sounds like it is coming from a sad – HEAVY heart. It sounds like it is coming from a powerful person who is made helpless yet the strong baritone retains clarity. That depresses the hell out of me. His heavy, rough voice actually helps to make the song sad. The song DOES need a little bit of “wow” else you’ll be too bored to listen to it. It needs to be just “fun enough” that you’re all ears.
“meri Awaaz suno”
This is also in my collecton. The song is rendered very well.
June 16th, 2007 at 11:48 am
“Rafi can never emulate Bacchan.”
Actually, it is that Bachchan can never emulate Rafi. Anyway, for all Rafi fans out there, I’d like to hear more about the “Naseeb incident.” Amitabh and Rafi were to record the duet “Chal Mere Bhai.” I hear that both arrived around noon for recording. Both appeared restless. Amitabh said, “I couldn’t sleep last night knowing that I’d be recording with a such a legend like you.” Rafi said something like, “I couldn’t get much sleep either knowing I’d record with such a tall super star like you.” At that, Amitabh fell to Rafi’s feet.
Does anyone have more details or something to add to that anecdote. I’m very interested. I’m also interested in what Amitabh had to say of Rafi - since Amitabh was the superstar of the time and coincidentally Rafi’s “just right” voice was not perfect for Amitabh’ deep barritione (he is a lousy singer btw).
June 16th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
MYK:
1. “This Booming and Resounding effect is personal, I can list many songs where Rafi could sound like that. I think you haven’t listened to a lot of Rafi songs to be making such comments. Rafi has many songs in deep baritone.”
Please do! List me AS MANY songs as you can think where Rafi has something close to the POWERFUL TONE of Kishore Kumar. I’m VERY interested.
I predict you’ll give a list of strong tonal quality but it’ll never be quite as powerful as Kishore’s rendition. How can it? Barritone is a good thing and a bad thing. Someone with a baritone could never sing “Din Dhal Jaye.” Just as it allows you – it also limits you. It’s OK that Rafi didn’t have baritone. His HUSKY voice and his TONE were excellent even without.
I anxiously wait for a list – make it as long as good as you can.
2. “What modulation are you talking about?” ; “Kishore did not have a versatile voice.”
He could change his voice to mellow and smooth to suite the an emotional or heartfelt number – Chingari Koi Badkhe (Amar Prem) or Aane Wala Pal (Golmal) sound very different from his trademark booming, powerful voice from say “Apni to Jaise Taise” from Laawaris. He could change his voice to match a drunk Amitabh in Sharabi. That’s undeniable modulation and versatility, for me.
3. “Kishore did not have the range nor the voice to sing the majority types of songs.”
If Kishore didn’t have the voice – then how could he reach such heights (and ONLY HE) to contend with Rafi? You can question anything about Kishore - his career or his training - but NOT his AMAZING VOICE.
4. “If you haven’t noticed, compositions in the 70’s were not as difficult as in the 50’s or 60’s. Kishore restricted SDB’s compositional range but SD noticed that in the 70’s he didn’t have to compose songs like those in the 50’s and 60’s, the 70’s was a different period.”
True, compositions in the 50s were much more difficult. However, in an artistic sense, an easier composition is no less to me. I loved music from the 70s (and late 60s with Rafi gems – I CANNOT believe that Rafi declined in 1969 – I can think of a dozen Rafi FAVORITES from that year alone and the songs of Aradhana were different but not better). That is not entirely relevant to the value of the song.
5. “If at all there was a miss, it was SDB-Rafi in the 70’s.”
My favorite Rafi-Lata duet is actually “Teri Bindiya Re” from 1973 – the “lowest” point of Rafi’s career. There’s pure magic in his voice in that song. The story of Abhimaan was completely ruined when they choose Rafi to do playback (I thought the female voice was supposed to be better in the movie than the males – certainly not in that song).
6. “Kishore wanted to go back home in 1967, RD told him to stay back.”
That should be told to people as a motivational period. Tell people, “even the great Kishore Kumar struggled and was about to give up. He never did though – kept persisting – and see what a rich career he had from 1969-1987” think how much he’d have missed had he given up.”
7. “Yet KK would not have been able to sing the classics Rafi sang for Dev.
Yes that is true – but Kishore sang his own classics for Dev.
8. “Even SDB knew this which is why the cream of Dev came with Rafi.”
Just for my own curiosity – who sang more for Dev Anand (not that this means greatness – I don’t care for Dev Anand just curious). Rafi or Kishore?
June 16th, 2007 at 12:11 pm
MYK:
You talk about the greatness of Rafi’s voice. Of course it is GREAT. Think about it this way. A lot of Kishore fans don’t care for the kind of songs from the 50s and 60s. They only care for the kinds of songs in the 1970s and 1980s. The ones that demand a powerful barritone for strength. They care for sad and romantic songs too (we’ve seen this in the 70s) but don’t care for songs that require too much classical training.
What kind of singer would such an audience like? Kishore Kumar. Whose voice would be BEST for this kind of genre? Kishore Kumar’s (before you argue this - I want that list). If you go for OVERALL SINGING with ALL KINDS of songs than I think Rafi wins easy - but it depends on the value of the fans. Lots of fans who grew up in the 70s are enchanted with that kind of music (and remember - the 70s 80s genre is big enough that it is a world of its own). This “limitation” is very broad one.
If people don’t care for ghazals and qawwalis but are within certain limits (that are broad nevertheless) (and MILLIONS are) and it is just about voice and not training - then Kishore Kumar can truly contend to be #1 among those fans. Kishore’s setback in the early period was NEVER his amazing voice - it was training.
You have to fit a singer for you purposes. Not everyone likes EVERY KIND of song. And fors specific categories - KK is #1. His voice is best. Even his limitations leave for a BIG WORLD - his great and vast career with many kinds of songs.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
That is why the historians / experts from the time always pick Rafi over Kishore. However, the people today who aren’t from the 50s or 60s but remember 70s well appreciate 70s music much more and don’t care as much for 50s and 60s (except a few Kishore numbers). And for them and their purposes - Kishore is #1.
June 16th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
I agree with myk on the “voice” aspect; Rafi’s voice in the 50s and 60s was a notch above everyone else’s. Also, you’ll have to realize that Rafi sung in multiple voices (Dilip Kumar, Rajendra Kumar, Shammi Kapoor, Dev Anand, Dharmendra,…), so it’s possible that you like one voice of his better than another. Kishore also had a very good voice during that period but he remained under-utilised as someone pointed out earlier. Sudip, I am also not sure of your evaluation of the “love” and “popularity” aspects. If you are talking about Kolkata, that may be true, but if you are talking about the whole world, it’s difficult to beat Rafi. One can understand Punjabis loving Rafi. But how do you explain Rafi’s popularity in places like Kerala and Andhra Pradesh? If you go to places like Birmingham and Manchester, Rafi is the favourite singer among Indians there. The Birmingham Symphony orchestra is actually recording a number of Rafi songs in the voice of Sonu. That voice is gold; I still don’t understand how anyone can call it “thin” or “feminine”. Is Sudesh Bhosle the current benchmark for a good voice?
June 16th, 2007 at 9:32 pm
The site and this subject has become a hit thanks to
Mohd Rafi in the Kishore Kumar site. In the movies, in halls
and stadiums, in the recording rooms and every where RAFI
saab was a hit..
He came as a nobody became a hero and went away as a hero…… Mumba-ites, music lovers & citizens will never forget July 31st 1980,
when the GODS called RAFI SAAB BACK…. it will be 27 years of
melody-less years.
And three great singers succumbed to heart attacks : Kishore
Kumar, Mukesh and Rafi saab…..
Does singing affect the heart and its working…?
binu nair….
June 16th, 2007 at 10:52 pm
He’s not saying that Rafi’s voice wasn’t excelent, he’s just saying that Rafi’s ‘taan and harkatein’ was what made him inimitable. Perhaps true - even if someone had his vocals - they still couldn’t be as good as Rafi. Very credible to me. Last night I explored musicindiaonline - Sonu Nigam has a 22 volume set where he sings some famous Rafi numbers. Sonu showed good voice and ability but that ‘taan and harkatein’ was simply not there and so the songs were like cheap subsitutes for Rafi - despite the voie and ability being superb.
June 16th, 2007 at 11:12 pm
P Haldar wrote:
“Sudip, I am also not sure of your evaluation of the “love” and “popularity” aspects”
—I never meant Kishore is more popular than Rafi. What I meant is I do not care for that, even if that be so. I can concede that. In ancient Greece and Rome, art was esoteric. If art is democratized, you will always get “Main bhelpuri kha raha tha” or “Mera pant bhi sexy”. By the simple 80:20 rule, 80% opinions do not count, except for the day of election. My 8-year old son thinks I am better in Math than Einstein..What does it prove? Anyway, this is my personal opinion.
Binu wrote: “And three great singers succumbed to heart attacks : Kishore
Kumar, Mukesh and Rafi saab…..
Does singing affect the heart and its working…?”
–Interesting.. And they dies almost at the same age.. But the Mangeskar sisters are alive.
Sanjay wrote:”However, this slow song doesn’t have a lot of energy (as designed) but plenty of emotions and depth. Without that energy, it loses the trait of being immediately appreciable for ANYONE except from that group I mentioned. This, as unfair as it is, means that the song won’t be timeless as something with immediately recognizable energy, especially from a fan of the coming generations who isn’t as familiar with the classical gems.”
–Exactly… As I said before I myself converted. I do not belong to the Rafi generation. The first Rafi song I heard at length (I had followed snippets earlier of other songs) was way after Rafi’s death. It was “Meri Kahani bhoolnewale”.
Kishore is like whisky. It immediately strikes you. Rafi is like wine..It slowly gets on you. There are so many songs which I started linking after hearing for the nth time.
Sanjay wrote: “This is a very interesting point. That is exactly my problem with Mohammed Rafi. One of my all time favorite songs (in a general category too!) is Rafi’s “Patthar Ke Sanam.”
-So we agree on the basic principle though our opinions about KK and Rafi are reverse. The two songs you picked are LP songs. LP songs are generally attractive and full of embellishments. Even Mukesh’s hit numbers from Milan and DHarti kahen pukar ke were attractive. Rafi sang lot of sad songs for LP. The few ones devoid of energy are “Woh Jab yaad aye” (but this was the first LP film-Parasmani) and “Akela hoon main” (Jaal).
June 16th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
As in Sonu had a good voice too (not as good as Rafi’s but good) - but what made the 1000 fold difference was the taan and harkatein. That made Rafi’s version 1000X better for me.
June 16th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
Sanjay wrote:
“That is why the historians / experts from the time always pick Rafi over Kishore. However, the people today who aren’t from the 50s or 60s but remember 70s well appreciate 70s music much more and don’t care as much for 50s and 60s (except a few Kishore numbers). And for them and their purposes - Kishore is #1.”
–This is exactly the “Recency factor” that Haldar and others mentioned earlier in the thread. There will come a time when Saigal, Rafi and Kishore will be equi-distant in terms of time. The real evaluation would start then.
I am not sure if you follow current music. Current music is trying to get out of the Sanu, Abhijeet, Vinod Rathod, Sudesh Bhosle genre- a trend of oversimplified open-throated singing started by KK. Sanu, Babul, Vinod and (to some extent) Abhijeet have been shown the door by fans.
-Most films these days have sufi style qawwalis, soft songs and some item numbers. There are very few action songs. If Kishore and Rafi (imagine at their peak) were singing today, most songs in Gangster, Kalyug, Metro, (and the Himesh, Rahman ones) compositions would go to Rafi.
-In all these films (take Gangster for example) different genres have been tried out, which kind of relates back to the 60s (take the “Hum dono” or “Mere Sanam” examples). The difference is that now 5 singers are singing the 5 different genres. In the 60s one person could sing them all-that was RAFI.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:48 am
Mr. haldar, Rafiji was very popular in London also.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:54 am
to rate rafis voice as thin and femine is only intented to tarnish the reputation of agreat singer.no real music lover could say so.listen the words of kj jesudas.he consider rafi as his inspiration and greatest singer of india.ithink kj is very close to rafi as a singer with real sweet voice
June 17th, 2007 at 12:59 am
Stupid Kishore fan, nothing Hindu-Muslim here. Are you a politician?
June 17th, 2007 at 10:35 am
Viswan ji….
Rafi ji has a thin and feminine voice..
for their comment - Music Lovers will only laugh and kids
below 5 years will believe it… they are making themselves
laughing stock material…. and exposing their limited knowledge
in defending the in-defensible…
So pathetic and weird their ideas are my friends….
they are like the dogs .. who bark relentlessly, when an ELEPHANT
passes….
Pl. do not take them seriously…
IInd point: Yesudas is undoubtedly a great singer and in classicals
and semi classicals he is the best… His hindi diction is wanting
and his Mumbai tenure in late seventies witnessed limited success.
Yesudas regards rafi saab as the best singer…. and in voice quality
Kishore and Yesudas has a strong voice which they modulate
quite well…..
In fact Yesudad did a song rehearsal with rafi ji under the baton
of ravindra jain in seventies.. .. but the song was not recorded….
binu nair
June 17th, 2007 at 10:44 am
Sanjay wrote: “He’s not saying that Rafi’s voice wasn’t excelent, he’s just saying that Rafi’s ‘taan and harkatein’ was what made him inimitable. Perhaps true - even if someone had his vocals - they still couldn’t be as good as Rafi. Very credible to me. Last night I explored musicindiaonline - Sonu Nigam has a 22 volume set where he sings some famous Rafi numbers. Sonu showed good voice and ability but that ‘taan and harkatein’ was simply not there and so the songs were like cheap subsitutes for Rafi - despite the voice and ability being superb.”
-I agree with Sanjay just as he agrees with me. Rafi had an excellent voice that had unique abilities like huskiness, an inherent pathos, sweetness, the ability to switch scale. But when you get into a discussion of “best voice” rather than “best singer” (note the difference), it gets subjective. As Sanjay said Kishore’s voice had lot of youthfulness , energy and masculinity. Similarly, Mukesh and Jagjit had enviable basses. Bhupinder and Yesudas had good depth. You can slice and dice and debate-it is difficult to arrive at “THE VOICE”.
–Rafi’s uniqueness was in his taan and harkatein. And mind you the songs Sanjay is referring to are Rafi songs that Sonu is trying to imitate. He knows exactly what harkatein to perform, still he comes short. I was listening to a song from recent film “Hum dil de chuke sanam”- “Jhoka hawa ka aaj bhi” by Hariharan. It is very good song. I thought it is one current song that had all musical and lyrical elements of a great song, but it will just be good, never a timeless great..Rafi with his style could have made it great!
–The other point about Rafi is Rafi exudes his sweetness from the navel. This was stated by Anandji and becomes obvious if you see the live videos in youtube. When someone sings sweet (such as Sonu and Abhijeet), one usually sings from the throat. Rafi had a very profound depth which came from his gut. It is a very subtle point. That makes him sweet even in so-called “macho” songs like “Main jaat yamla”…And just like Anandji, I also think is the biggest difference between his clones and him.
June 17th, 2007 at 10:51 am
Viswan ji….
Rafi ji has a thin and feminine voice..
By this comment - Music Lovers will only laugh and kids
below 5 years will believe it… they are making themselves
laughing stock material…. and exposing their limited knowledge
in defending the in-defensible…
So pathetic and weird their ideas are my friends….
they are like the dogs .. who bark relentlessly, when an ELEPHANT
majestically passes..
Pl. do not take them seriously… over these illiterate jokers.
IInd point: Yesudas is undoubtedly a great singer and in classicals
and semi classicals he is the best… His hindi diction is wanting
and his Mumbai tenure in late seventies witnessed limited success.
Yesudas regards rafi saab as the best singer…. and in voice quality
Kishore and Yesudas has a strong voice which they modulate
quite well…..
In fact Yesudad did a song rehearsal with rafi ji under the baton
of ravindra jain in seventies.. .. but the song was not recorded….
binu nair
June 17th, 2007 at 11:42 am
I’m going to make a few, final, concluding remarks on my behalf. This is the first time I have ever engaged in the Rafi-Kishore debate and that is why I was particularly enthusiastic. Going to the Rafi website and seeing 800+ posts - this MONUMENTAL effort from all of us to have a debate is nothing but a drop in the ocean as this debate has been going on for 30+ years and will continue.
My views:
- Mohd Rafi had without a doubt, the most melodious voice of all singers. It was also very “full” - second to none in this regard. If there was any voice close to perfect - it was his. Not too deep not too soft. Just right. It is because of this that Rafi’s voice could universally suit just about any actor and indeed he sang for dozens of actors. The only thing “missing” in his voice was barritione - but barritone closes many more doors than it opens. Additionally, he could make up for it with his modulation and amazing vocal range to amplify energy. He had the best voice overall.
- Kishore’s voice did prove superior in some specific situations - it is these specific situations that KK fans absolutel love and that is why for them KK is #1. That’s fine. Overall, however, I doubt that’d be the case and the repertoire and careers indicate who was more versatile.
- Yes, Kishore was more suited for Amitabh because barritone goes with barritone - but barritone would look silly on the dozens of other actors. While Rafi wasn’t as great of a fit for Amitabh - he still fit very well and mixed his voice very well with Amitabh in John Johnny Janardhan. Singing for Amitabh doesn’t make you the greatest - just an example to emphasize barritone.
- There were some songs that Kishore’s voice was better suited for than Rafi’s voice and there was some songs that Rafi’s voice was better suited for than Kishore’s voice (this number is much greater than the first IMO but no one COMPLETELY wins out).
- Arguing who’s voice was the best is subjective. However, I think most people from the industry, when you look at overall from late 40s to 80, when you gauge ALL KINDS of music - would say Rafi was more well rounded. You really can’t deny it by seeing career or polls from such eduated people. Arguing who was better in the limited 70s period is subjective and will lead to endless debate - but do remember the limitation here.
- Kishore was king for a specific period or genre but Rafi was king for almost 4 different periods of times. He did recover to the top with Kishore in 1980 and only someone of his greatness could have pulled off a comeback like that. Rafi had a greater career IMO with a much greater output (~6000 different songs vs ~4000 different songs). Rafi’s voice was more versatile than Kishore’s - as great as Kishore’s voice was.
- Sometimes I do have problems with Rafi when his voice is being too soft or gets fuzzy. Listen to Dard E Dil - when he sings “kur.” Maybe he did it purposely. Rafi’s voice could have flaws at times (especially in late 80s) where his throat sounded dry. MAYBE I’m wrong and it was the equipment (very possible) or the MD direction. Nevertheless, like I said, it was the closest thing to a perfect voice for me.
- Sudip made an excellent point. I have learned something new here. As great as Rafi’s voice and singing ability was - what really made him immortal and his songs incomparably superior to others was his harkatein and taan. His great voice could be challenged by a good voice - but that element I mentioned made the 1000 fold difference.
- I always felt that under VERY LIMITED CONDITIONS (tone, type of song, etc) Udit Narayan could sing a song just as well as Rafi (and that probaby is the case - if the song is simpe enough that it doesn’t require a singer of Rafi’s monumental ability). For example, we agree that Rafi was the greatest singer but if one says Kishore could sing SOME songs better than Rafi (his voice was better suited), then one can also extend and say that Udit Narayan could sing even lesser songs just as good or better than Rafi. These instances are rare but acknowledge that one singer cannot win each and every time. Right singer for right song.
I and Manish Kumar are the same person, it is just that the debate was too boringly one - sided. I don’t think the KK fans did justice to Kishore Kumar at all and made some silly comments that was an embarassment for the great singer so I tried to step in - but I see there’s really no point. This debate will continue again and again.
My final remark is that I genuinely fear we’ll lose both Rafi & Kishore. They are eternal singers getting more popular by the day - but today’s music is utter garbage and I get depressed being exposed to it. Today’s music sells on half naked people like a MTV music video rather than the brilliant lyrics, composers, and vocalists our great country has such a rich tradition of. I hope the values of music don’t go down so much that tomorrow’s generation will not be able to appreciate Rafi and Kishore.
It was a great pleasure discussing with you guys. I really learned a lot and had to think about this stuff and gain new perspective. I don’t have the kind of knowledge that say Sudip or P Haldar have where off the top of his head he can produce a top 20 list (that is true knowledge gained with experience and time) but I’m enthusiastic. I love Rafi and I love Kishore too and other singers. I discovered a few new songs for Rafi - a few new gems that I hadn’t heard of before.
That Asha Rafi duet with Madhubala & Dev Anand (he’s crap) was lovely. Can’t believe that song was like 30 years before I was born and I loved it. Sudip also pointed out very well that somtimes a person has to listen to a song multiple times to get it and love it. I thought I was the only one.
Thanks very much, hope to discuss with you guys in the future. I don’t post very frequently but every now and then I do stop by this web page or the Rafi webpage and sometimes I post at HamaraForums under my name. However, I do sometimes start trouble at HF cause I enjoy discussion I get bored of the super polite gestures - let’s get talking.
I also do have some radical views that make me look silly. I think we should never put singers at a godly pedestal and I feel today’s two singers Alka Yagnik and Udit Narayn deserve a little more credit. Hang me, but even though Lata is greater than Alka, a handful of songs Lata could not render better such as “Tu Shayar Hai” from Saajan or “Choli Ke Peeche.”
Anyway, I hope we discuss again. I very much enjoyed it and learned a lot and have a lot more learning to do.
- Manish Kumar, Philadelphia, PA, USA
June 17th, 2007 at 11:49 am
Shoot, I said I wouldn’t post again, but one last request.
MYK - I WANT THAT LIST! POST IT!
I wouldn’t call Rafi’s voice thin or feminine. It was was just right - but it wasn’t the manliest of voices (which is good - more versatility IMO).
Greatest voice of all - MOHD RAFI.
Everytime I watch a movie from the 70s, I get excited to read who the playback singers will be. When I don’t see Rafi’s name, I get very sad. Last night on www.rajshri.com (free classic Hindi movies with many Rafi numbers for free if you have high speed internet) I saw “Buddha Mil Gaya”. Disappointed in the movie (I love Hrishida), amazed with Manna Dey’s singing (but I stil like Rafi & KK better), but VERY SAD when I didn’t see “MOHD RAFI” in the list of playback singers in the opening credits.
Now I’m done. We’ll talk again in the future.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:31 pm
Sudip, let me tell you why I mentioned the “popularity” factor. I know as a true music lover, you care much more about the quality of the song rather than its popularity. That’s fine, but Rafi is more than that; RAFIana is a movement, something that we who grew up in the 60s experienced first hand. It is difficult for some of you to even appreciate what it was like.
Rafi never got the kind of publicity and support that some of the other singers have received. Look at Dev Anand; he hardly ever mentions Rafi. Look at all the big-time producers who not only benefited from his songs but also from the fact that he waived all the royalties. He made heroes out of zeroes. And then you saw how these same people treated him just because a couple of Kishore’s songs became major hits. Kishore’s time had come, no doubt about that. But why run away from Rafi who was producing 20 to 30 major hits every year? Do you really think he wouldn’t have produced hits if given the chance? Man, he could turn any decent tune into gold!
It’s his fans who never let him fade. I have great respect for all my fellow RAFIans who stood by him during that lean period. And when they get unduly emotional, I understand. Look at all the garbage that is being spread in the name of music: Rafi had a thin voice, Rafi had a feminine voice, Rafi couldn’t sing energetic songs, Rafi’s voice did not have much bass, Rafi couldn’t sing rock ‘n roll, Rafi had problems with some of the fast-changing harmonics, so-and-so female singer surpassed him in some song or the other, Rafi is not that popular anymore, he was only popular in the 50s and the 60s because there was no one around…. What’s coming next? He could not sing, right?
Here are some truths:
The Baiju Bawra songs (semi-classical in nature) were immensely popular.
“Nain Lad Jai Hain” was a major hit, although it didn’t have the frills of …
Most of Naushad’s films were actually golden jubilee hits.
People still love “Suhani raat dhal chuki” (1949).
Rafi’s voice had shakti, bhakti and masti.
Rafi defined what playback singing was all about; no one will ever reach that level.
You can keep discussing voice quality (bass, tonal quality, force, etc., etc.), but what SPB said (He had the TRUE VOICE) and Yesudas said (God was partial to Rafi) are the actual truth. No amount of analysis will ever change that.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Comparisons are odious and to compare kishore and rafi is akin to comparing apples and Oranges, chalk and cheese etc.
If KK had a strong Baritone voice, rafi had a weak feminine voice.
KK was a eccentric extrovert while rafi was a shy modest introvert (again feminine qualities).
KK remained untrained (thank god for that as too much of training can reduce the natural sweetness of the voice as can be confirmed by most of the MD) and rafi classically trained.
KK appeals to the youth and appeal is universal and rafi to the elderly and esoteric few and appeal is quite narrow.
To praise KK is to do the obvious and to praise rafi is similar to praising a classic which everyone appreciates in order to project as intellectual but no one reads.
KK always sang all songs effortlessly while rafi tried to make simple songs difficult by unneccassarily adding harkatien and taan even when not required just to demonstrate his classical knowledge.
KK sang with a certain spontaneity(akin to SRK) while rafi sang with a lot of method.
India is great becoz that country is the greatest which has the greatest man or woman (kk and LM)
June 17th, 2007 at 9:10 pm
On Rafi’s popularity in the late 70s:
Here’s an excerpt from an article published in The Telegraph (Calcutta, August 17, 1980); this writer knows how to report the truth:
——
And finally, in 1977, Rafi proved once again that Hum Kissi Se Kum Nahin. In the film, all four songs sung by Rafi became superhits: the title qawaali, Kya hua tera vaada (which fetched him the Filmfare Award after a break of nine long years), Chaand mera dil and Yeh ladka haaye Allah.
The year also saw the rage of Laila Majnu (in which he sang all the songs of rising star Rishi Kapoor, too) under the baton of Madan Mohan and Jaidev; and the third and second ranking in Binaca’s finals that year were: meri mehbooba (Dharamveer; Laxmikant-Pyarelal) and Pardah hai pardah (Amar Akbar Anthony; Laxmikant-Pyarelal.) In 1978, LP’s Apnapan got Rafi a Filmfare nomination though eventually the song landed up with a lyric award (Anand Bakshi) instead ? Aadmi musaafir hai.
And now look at 1979-80! Just when Rafi had made a complete comeback, he’s gone! Laxmikant-Pyarelal gave him all seven songs in Sargam (four solos, three duets with Lata) and walked away with the best music award, all seven being top of the pops. They gave him four out of six in Suhaag (the other two being Asha’s) and they have been raging through the Binaca Geet Mala. They gave him five out of six (the other being Lata) in Aasha and did well enough.
Another indication of his sure return is the fact that Dev Anand who did not go in for Rafi ever since Gambler (1969) ? in which, too, he had just one ghazal ? returned to him after 10 years in the latest Man Pasand though in just one song, under the baton of Rajesh Roshan, with Tina Munim. The weekly Binaca Geet Malas in 1980 have clearly shown so far that Rafi is dominating, sometimes with as many as 10 songs as compared to Kishore’s two (on May 28) out of a total of 16 toppers!
As Lata Mangeshkar said after his death: “The void that was created by Saigal’s death had been filled by Rafi Saab. He sang with me for 33 years. He was an exceptional singer.”
June 17th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
Hi Sanjay:
Thanks for your comments.
MYK:
1. Please do! List me AS MANY songs as you can think where Rafi has something close to the POWERFUL TONE of Kishore Kumar. I’m VERY interested.
I predict you’ll give a list of strong tonal quality but it’ll never be quite as powerful as Kishore’s rendition. How can it? Barritone is a good thing and a ba