An endless feud between the fans of Mohammed Rafi and Kishore Kumar..
Mohammed Rafi was born at Kotla Sultan Singh, near Amritsar . Rafi displayed his talent for singing at the tender age of 13. The lure of movies beckoned him to Bombay in 1944. His first hit was the Tera Khilona Toota Balak from Anmol Ghadi in 1946. India lost this jewel on July 31, 1980.
Abhas Kumar Ganguly, better known as Kishore Kumar was born on August 4, 1929 in Kandwa. Following the footsteps of his elder brother Ashok Kumar he too ventured into movies. But he soon realised that his heart was in singing. Under the patronage of RD Burman he soon flourished. He would at times compose and write songs himself. Sadly he passed away in October,1987.
The debate as to who was the greater singer carries on even today, even decades after their death. Both of them left an indelible mark in the world of Indian film music, a void that still cannot be filled today. No wonder that their fans are at constant feud with one another trying to prove that their hero was better.
It is a no secret that Mohammed Rafi was a trained classical singer and that Kishore Kumar had a natural talent. Hence Rafi’s fans feel that he was the more accomplished and skilful of the two. Kishoreda’s fans are of the opinion that though he may not have been trained, he had purity and sheer quality of voice. The fact that he wasn’t trained, and could still sing anything, both classical and non classical songs with equal magic rendered him more superior than Rafi.
Fans claim that Rafi was the most favoured singer for many veteran composers while Kishore Kumar was preferred by few and was a playback mainly for Dev Anand and later for Rajesh Khanna. Rafi on the other hand balanced his melodious voice for diverse stars like Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand, Guru Dutt, Rajendra Kumar and Shammi Kapoor.
In support of Rafi’s greatness, many of his fans say Rafi sang for Kishore Kumar in films that Kishore himself acted. They also draw the attention to Rafi’s song Darde Dil in Karz which was based on a single note and proved that he was indeed blessed with God-gifted melody. Mohammed Rafi’s fans also claim that Sonu Nigam and Udit Narayan who belong to the Rafi school are technically better than Kumar Sanu, Babul Supriyo etc.
On the other hand, Kishore Kumar’s fans remind people of songs which he sang by melodiously incorporating his inimitable yodelling. Those numbers are extremely popular even today. They further claim that in the 70’s and 80’s, it was he who sang for a number of heroes.
This debate can go on endlessly. However it must be stated that both were great singers of their times and each had his own distinctive style.
There was no feud between the two and the immense respect that Kishore Kumar had for Mohammed Rafi is clearly seen in the photo during Rafi’s funeral. A silent, sad and grief-struck Kishore in the newspapers portrayed very well that no one except him understood what an irreparable loss had taken place in Indian film music.
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May 8th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
Dear Sir offourse there is no end but there is something clear like sun who is best singer ever born in bollywood,I can say what I want but important thing is the true is true,Rajesh Khanna said once that the song which singed by Anwar for him if there was MohdRafi he can’t sing it the way singed by Anwar!!!do u think so?we should not compare mohd Rafi with any singer said by many great people who know about music.if u have singer like Mohd Rafi u don’t need anyother singer to sing any tape of song to be sing by other singer boz mohd rafi can sing any tape of song so easy way but other singers they can’t,exp Shammi Kapoor used around 95% Mohd Rafi but if we go to Rajesh Khanna or mr Bachchan it not like that,if I like Sanu it not mean that he is the best singer,why we say that KK was not trained!!!!after singing thousands of songs and working with all MD he is not trained!!!!!!!???if he is not trained it mean that he is not a singer as i think but kk was great singer,why compare him as singer with mohd rafi?
There is end of topic who is better as we know in our heart……
May 9th, 2007 at 10:28 am
Good article, but the one again will encourage many to start the so called debate.
I don’t understand why each and every time they ignite people to start the comparison.
Rafi is I think one of the greatest singers on the face of the Earth and so is Kishore Kumar
Rafi mainly because of his sheer skills and Kishore Kumar mainly because of his Purity of
voice. I don’t mean to say Rafi’s voice is not pure, neither do I say Kishore doesn’t have
skills. But yes, one will overshadow the other on those points.
I love both of them. One thing I don’t understand. What’s Rafi school. Ok, I think Rafi’s
distinct syle and calibre made it a school. Sonu Nigam can be categorized under Rafi’s
School. How come Udit ? There’s no similarity between his voice and style with Rafi’s.
However Sonu has some similarity. But as a singer, Udit is far better than Sonu,
is that the reason some people say he is also from Udit just to prove Rafi’s greatness ?
I don’t understand this fact. Anybody can explain ? don’t start a debate. Just give me
reasons that why Udit falls under Rafi school. Don’t just say that he himself has said
that that’s why. That’s not a reason to believe.
Thanks for the wonderful article. BTW, what about the author ? a Rafian or a Kishoreian ?
May 9th, 2007 at 10:47 am
IMHO, both Rafisahab and Kishoreda were two sides of the same coin. Both were equally important for the coin to exist, so why compare them ?
May 9th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
No doubt that Kishoreda is the greatest.
May 9th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
wot nonsense. Rafi was much better than K.K. Udit nor Sonu can come to Rafi’s gharana of singing. Not even close.
May 9th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
ALL MUSIC LOVERS,
yes let us not compare these 2 great legends and enjoy the lovely evergreen hits given by them.
Both had the best of relationship so why the fans should grudge anything against the legends.
Rafi Sahabs photo along with Saigal sahabs potrait is displayed in the portico of Kishore da s house. Also Rafi Sahab in Kishore da’s last film charged a friendly 1 rupee.
In the 70s when Rafi sahab was less used an ignorant person asked Kishore da ” Aapne Rafi ki chutti kar di”. The fool got a resounding slap from the legend promptly.
I strongly feel all should enjoy the greatness of the legends without comparing and simply enjoy MUSIC which the TWO together dominated in the playback singing field.
Narayanan
May 9th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Both Rafi saab and Kishoreda were great. They had mutal admiration for
each other.
As for settling for the best lets just say Mukeshji, as he was
totally inimitable. That way Rafi or Kishore fans will not feel bad.
May 9th, 2007 at 7:34 pm
@ Messi
When Udit says that he is from Rafi’s school, then why do you force him to pull out….strange!
May 9th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
Kishore Kumar is the most versatile of all singers.He is much ahead than Rafi.
May 9th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Without any formal training,he reached unusual heights in playback singing.That’s what a genius is.
May 10th, 2007 at 12:19 am
So true Narayan & Paresh Pai, I liked it what you guys said.
Sorry if I did anything wrong. Thanks for everything.
May 10th, 2007 at 6:18 am
If you like someone’s intrinsic voice - whatever he sings - you will naturally like it. This liking is personal and thus varies from person to person e.g. a Kishore fan will like Kishore’s voice and a Rafi fan will like Rafi’s voice. Voice is probably the most important factor which means that preference for a singer is subjective, personal, and ill suited to compare with another’s tastes. What you can do…is compare within yourself but that is about how far you can go.
I really don’t like it when someone tries with good intentions to balance the debate by saying, “Kishore had the natural voice while Rafi was better trained.” I think Rafi had both! Yes, I liked Kishore’s version of Tum Bin Jaon Kahan better simply because of the yodelling. However, if you compare voice alone - I felt Rafi’s was more crisp and clearer and fuller.
At the same time - I *try to refrain from generalzing Kishore’s voice. I think in the 50s and 60s his voice was more crisp and clear (listen to Mana Janab Ne Pukara Nahi 1957 or Mere Samne Waali Kirdhki 1968) than his voice in the 70s. My guess is that he was so popular in the 70s and so busy as a result that sometimes he just throated the song or quickly rendered it to keep up with assigments whereas in the 50s he had fewer songs and so he was able to dedicate himself more to each one.
Another reason for Kishore not always delivering his best is because he emphasized playback singing as a business among exploitive people in the movie industry (how right he was!). In one incident, he was singing and Bappi Lahri told him to add some emotion to the song. Kishore said, “Give me 300 more rupees and I’ll put emotion into the song.” Do you think Kishore put his best effort into that song? I don’t blame him from a personal viewpoint (he should make the most he can) but as a singer he compromised his art (his song was still good thanks to his intrinsic voice but clearly he didn’t put in his best). I’m not saying that Kishore didn’t work hard or that he just throated every song - but I think you understand my thoughts. I cannot excuse Kishore as an artist for this!
In sharp contrast, Rafi was always very dedicated to his singing and even on the day of his death as he recorded his last song - he didn’t fail to impress! This description is well documented. Additionally (again only my opinion) I can’t think of a single Rafi song where he doesn’t seem to sing from the heart and where the song isn’t gushing with emotion and
My opinion is that Rafi had by far the best voice among the male singers - it wasn’t too deep or too low or too…it was just perfect. This is why Rafi’s voice could suit just about any actor and his record as a primary choice for over a dozen actors from the romantic Dharmendra to the quirky Mehmood to Johnny Walker to the rebel Shammi Kapoor - Rafi’s voice was a voice for all occasions. He also had that magic in the voice that is a rare gift (Kishore had it too).
For my money - Rafi’s super voice quality was always consistent - from the 40s all the way until he breathed his last! Kishore’s voice was smooth and crisp in the 50s and 60s, somewhat coarse but deep and strong (great tone) in the 70s and 80s. Neverthleless, for me, Rafi’s voice was much better. It was sweeter, it was much more crisp and clear than any version of Kishore’s voice. That’s just me. Mohammed Rafi had the best voice.
It is a fact that Rafi yodelled before Kishore! Kishore fans who unknowingly say that Kishore was the best yodeller have not heard Rafi yodel but indeed - Rafi’s vocals had no limits. He yodelled in a song from 40s or early 50s and IMO it was just as good as Kishore’s! Rafi rarely yodelled because he was trained singer and among trained singer this artistic trait (I think it is art) is looked down upon. This fact that I dare to say few KK fans knew of or believe - shows what great vocals Rafi had that he could be on the same ground of yodelling as the great Kishore Kumar!
It is fact that Rafi had the wider vocal range and combining this with his superior training in classical music meant that Rafi could sing just about any song. While Kishore was very versatile - there are some songs that are SIMPLY out of his vocal range IMO. A song like “Ae Mohabat Zindabad” from Naushad’s Mughal E Azam requires a very, very high vocal range that no one but Rafi himself could match! When Shankar Jaikishan started out - they went to Rafi and asked him to sing as he pleased because he was the only one who could sing their composition (humble Rafi told them to tell him how they wanted it).
It is fact that till 1969 Rafi sang 10X more songs than Kishore (and they were quality) and that MDs used Rafi more than Kishore from 1977-1980. That tells you something! Of the ~40 years together, Kishore had the better of Rafi for only 6 years. The “decline” of Rafi was inevitable because when you dominate for 20 years, the people need a brief change of something different and Kishore provided with that. I listen primarily to Rafi but every now and then I take a break for a fresh new style of voice and that voice is typically Kishore or Udit.
Also know that if Kishore really had the natural voice (over Rafi’s) then…when Kishore started out as a singer he really struggled and people told him that he was no good or that his voice just didn’t have it. Mohammed Rafi’s voice was NEVER criticized like that at ANY point in his career - it testifies that Rafi Sahab’s intrinsic voice was tough to question. Kishore did receive an aura.
Someone said that Rafi could not sing a song like “Arre Deewano Mujhe Pehchano” from Don. Are you kidding? A skilled singer of his voice control could sing that song in his sleep. Additionally, some could say that Kishore had a brilliant personality and that he could do funny songs that maybe Rafi could not. Again, I disagree because Rafi was a great singer who dedicated himself and had MAGIC and emotion and NUANCE in his voice. Rafi did a great job of capturing Kishore’s brilliant personality and nuances in the songs for which he did playback for Kishore. Rafi had personality too and could do just about any song - funny, yodel etc.
Rafi had the best voice, he had the magic, and he had the training and range. I can’t think of another singer that has ALL of these four traits. These comparisons are only within me…you guys could think it is rubbish!
Salamat Rahe Dostana Hamara - I thought Rafi’s voice had much more emotion here whereas Kishore maintained a stronger tone
Zindagi Ek Safar - Rafi maintained a stronger tone and his voice was fuller and smoother.
Hum Premi Prem Karna Chahe - Both maintained equal tone but for me, Rafi had more emotion in his voice.
Tum Bin Jaaon Kahan - Rafi had a more crisp, clear voice. Kishore wins because artistically his yodelling had the edge but Rafi could have yodelled too if he wanted!
After having written all this, I still say that my opinion against SOMEONE ElSE can potentially be an apple versus an orange. These opinions are against MY values and likes which aren’t universal hahaha. I’m also glad that we have BOTH to listen to!
May 10th, 2007 at 10:24 am
I’d like to commend Manish Kumar for a very insightful analysis; I share most of his views.
In the history of playback singing, there was no phenomenon like Rafi and there will never be one. The only singer to challenge Rafi was Kishore and we need to recognize that. Lata, Asha, Manna or Mukesh could never overshadow Rafi; Rafi simply towered above all of them. That it is why it is important to understand the reasons why Kishore could dethrone Rafi. Of course, there was always that issue of patronage from the Burmans, especially the younger one. Suffice it to say that without RD’s music, it would have been impossible for Kishore to displace Rafi. What RD created in the 1970-75 period was sheer magic and Kishore responded magnificently. They were made for one another. Though Rafi’s voice could easily cover the gamut of song types, there was (just) one dimension in which Kishore’s voice was superior. The genius in SD recognized that much earlier than anyone else; that is why he could exploit the two voices so well. But the son never realized that, although Rafi launched him into big league with Teesri Manzil. He let Kishore sing almost every song of his, including classical, folk, ghazal, etc. It is a stroke of irony that when Rafi got half a chance in HKKN, he came back with a bang. The difference between SD and RD ultimately is how they used Rafi. SD and Rafi defined what playback singing is all about in Pyasa (Yeh duniya agar mil bhi jaye to kya hai) and it was they who could scale those lofty heights again in Kagaz ke Phool (Dekhi zamane ki yari). Listen to Rafi’s Din dhal jaye from Guide and it’d be difficult to discern that someone else is singing for Dev.
Kishore was a spontaneous talent. Yes, Rafi could sing every song that Kishore sang but, in my humble opinion, Kishore would be slightly ahead in songs like Yeh dil na hota bechara, Zindagi ek safar hai suhana, Yeh kya hua, Yeh jo mohabbat hai, etc. That is the dimension I alluded to earlier. Rafi fans — and I am one — need to concede that and stop this needless debate that has been going on for the last 37 years.
Rafi and Kishore fans should remember the mutual admiration and respect that these two playback giants shared. In 1983, three years after Rafi had died, Kishore came to sing at a concert in Kolkata. His first song was a Rabindra sangeet; his second was Rafi’s Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare from Chitralekha! Kishore was a self-avowed fan of Rafi’s (he once said, “I am his greatest fan”) and I am sure that Rafi, who hardly ever spoke, had the highest regard for the phenomenon that was Kishore.
May 10th, 2007 at 10:42 am
Hi Humble,
First, When did Udit say that ? provide me the exact quote. Otherwise it’s tough to believe
the media now a days.
Second, He might have said that because Rafi is his favorite singer or he liked Rafi’s
voice and style. But Udit’s voice and style don’t match with Rafi’s a bit. If you say Sonu
is from Rafi’s school I can believe that even when Sonu deny it officially. But it’s tough
to believe Udit case even he accepts that officially. Understand ?
May 10th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Kumar Sanu,Abhijeet,Babul Supriyo,Vinod Rathode,Shaan,KK,Kunal all belong to the Kishore Kumar school of singing.Kishoreda is simply the best.He is God.
May 11th, 2007 at 10:48 am
when the people who know about music they speak about KK they say he was good singer but when they speak about mohd Rafi they said there never be other Mohd Rafi as a singer and human,Mohd rafi singed for KK for free but mr bachchan don’t i hope u know that kk fans,why u people useing kk name with RD as i think LP with kk was more better,when RD got his first film he went to Mohd Rafi to sing for him and said by RD that Mohd Rafi helped him makeing his first songs and he canelled with other MD and he singed for me after he singed I was thining that Is i made this song or it is the magic of Mohd Rafi voice.when Lata ji speak about Mohd Rafi she said he can sing an topic of song so easy but when she speak about KK she say about kk jokes,
If we go for good music will see the good music star in 1950’s and end in 1980’s,the best music was in 1960’s,WHY?!!!!!as i think because of Mohd rafi…….why we compare?!!!!!!!!!!!???kk fans don’t have much to say but mohd rafi fans have much.
May 11th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Bapan,
please stop now. Don’t just repeat the samething I have trying to stop.
I agree with Haldar and Paresh Pai. Kishore was the one who could give a challenge
to Rafi, that’s the reason some people don’t like him. I respect both of them and will
always. So no stop using the bad words, mohdrafi.come website is full of all the words
and posts.
No more now, just enjoy.
Thank you
May 11th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Dear messi,
Lata ji is the best female singer she can’t challenge Mohd Rafi,Mannay Dey a great singer he said no way to challenge Mohd rafi,Talat ji knig of sad songs he can’t challenge mohd Rafi but I agree with that KK can challenge Mohd Rafi as actor but not singer,If u want say the way u want in this case any one can challenge any one as Pakistani or indian football team can challenge brazil football team,…….
Plz dear Messi walk up from dreams don’t compare,Why u all kk fans like RD?why most of kk fans who know about music they never compare KK with Mohd Rafi they try to compare Mohd rafi with Lata ji?
plz be honest with u r country where a singer like Mohd Rafi born.don’t compare great singers if u want to compare ask who know about music,who have the best song ever singed in bollywood?
KK was good singer as other but Mohd rafi is and will be after hundreds years alive………………………
May 12th, 2007 at 8:58 am
WHOEVER SAYS KISHORE IS BETTER THAN RAFI, HE OR SHE MUST BE A METALLY SICKO. SOME IDIOTS SAY THAT RAFI WAS TRAINED SO KISHORE WAS MORE TALENTED. TO HELL WITH THOSE OPINIONS. THEN AFRIDI IS MUCH MORE TALENTED THAN SACHIN AS SACHIN WAS TRAINED. I KNOW THE SAME VERY KISHORE FANS ARE FANS OF TENDULKAR BUT THEN THEY FORGET THAT SACHIN IS TRAINED.
RAFI COULD SING THEM ALL. THE HARDEST OF HARDEST SONGS WERE SUNG BY RAFI. THEY WERE JUST MADE THINKING OF RAFI, NOT FOR LATA OR MANNA OR ASHA OR MUKESH, LET ALONE KK. “O DUNIYA KE RAKHWALE” IS THE HARDEST SONG IN THE ENTIRE WORLD SUNG BY RAFI. “DEKHI ZAMANE KI YAARI” THE MOST SENTIMENTAL SONG SUNG BY RAFI. KK HAD MUCH EASIER SONGS.
WHEN YOU TALK WITH KISHORE FANS ABOUT SINGING, THEY ALWAYS BRING KK’S OTHER QUALITIES LIKE ACTING, DIRECTING, AND WHATEVER! COME ON GYUS. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SINGING. WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN OTHERS! THEN RAFI FANS ALSO CAN BRING RAFI’S GREATEST QUALITY THAT KK DOESN’T HAVE. HIS HUMANITY AND GREAT BEHAVIOUR. HE EVEN SANG WITHOUT MONEY WHERE KISHORE (THE SPOILED CHILED OF A WEALTHY DAD) ALWAYS DEMENDED MONEY BEFORE SINGING. BANGALIS MOSTLY LIKE KISHORE AS HE WAS BANGALI, THAT’S IT.
IF RAFI WAS BANGALI, THEY WOULD DEFINITELY SAY RAFI WAS MUCH BETTER.
May 12th, 2007 at 11:04 am
Thanks for the compliment. I actually regret posting now seeing what respect the two had for one another. In my defense - I did try to illustrate how LIMITED the comparison was - only within me.
Many Kishore fans will say they don’t care for the song “O Duniya Ke Rakhwale” - that’s perfectly understandable and takes away the need for Kishore to be able to sing it! We cannot impose our likings on others! Sure they’d miss out on appreciation of vocal range but there are many great things in music instead!
Irony8 - Kishore was absolutely right to demand payment first - if he did not he would have been EXPLOITED big time (and he was often when he let his guard down!).
I wouldn’t get too much into the Bengali talk or Muslim. It’s silly to say that Kishore was only popular because he was Bengali! You are right to say that there was some prejudice against Rafi Sahab for being Muslim but isn’t prejudice everywhere? This is not a good topic to get into IMO. Prejudice can work both ways but forget it. One thing is for sure: India sure as hell loved and respected Rafi Sahab - did he get shortchanged sometimes? Maybe. But so did Kishore and Manna Dey and everyone for one reason or another (ethnicity, failure to appreciate talent etc.).
As much fun I had comparing the two, my comparison is really inappropriate and POINTLESS to someone else. Let’s just be grateful that we had BOTH and if you like one then listen to him etc. !
It is tough for me to resist the temptation of comparing but I’d be embarassed to face Rafi sahab if I made demeaning comments about Kishore I just do it in response to other fans who make comments that I find unreasonable.
May 12th, 2007 at 11:12 am
Btw…Udit Narayan actually took singing lessons from Kishore Kumar in the late 80s. Whether this formal “informal lesson” was just done so that Udit could say he took a lesson from Kishore Kumar or if the purpose was to emphasize a specific way of Kishore’s singing, it is interesting.
It is well agreed that Udit is original and not really a member of Rafi school or Kishore school but…IMO he’s closer to Rafi. Rafi was UNIQUE in terms of his amazing quality and completeness but Kishore was more blatantly unique in the sense he was TOTALLY different from anyone else (whereas Rafi and another singer had some things in common but Rafi was just so much better and could do so much more, Kishore had some elements not seen in other singers at all! (Rafi had his own special unique magic and traits too but this is complicated)).
Does Udit yodel like Kishore or sing crazy songs like Kishore regularly? No. Unique to Kishore.
May 12th, 2007 at 7:03 pm
Anil Biswas was totally anti Rafi.He liked Kishoreda’s singing very much.Kishoreda is GOD.Whoever says Rafi is better than Kishoreda,is mad and donkey.
May 12th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Love u Kishoreda more than life.
May 12th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
I don’t know why this Bengali issue has come into the debate. I am a Bengali and there are hundreds of diehard Rafi fans that I personally know of in Kolkata. In Kolkata where I grew up, old-timers used to say, “Rafi is Rafi” to preempt any comparison with other singers. For Bengali songs, Kishore, Manna, Hemant, Lata and Asha (the first three are Bengalis) are definitely much more popular; Rafi sang very few Bengali songs. At one time, Talat (known as Tapan Kumar in Bengal) used to be also popular. But we are talking about Hindi songs and I wish some of you were there at the Netaji Indoor Stadium concert featuring RD, Asha, Kishore and Rafi in 1980. Rafi sang last because if he sang first, Kolkatans would have said, “function noshto hoye galo” (the function got spoiled). The response he evoked was simply unbelievable. Adjacent to the Netaji Indoor Stadium is the famous Eden Gardens, where Kolkatans once protested, “No Mushtaq No test”, and forced the selectors to bring back their favourite Mushtaq Ali. Kolkatans respect musicians and sportsmen for their talent, not for their ethnic or religious background.
May 12th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
Wow…you went to a live concert by Rafi, Lata, and Kishore!?! I wonder how many concerts these three giants did together…that is amazing! You’re very lucky.
May 12th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Why we compare KK with Mohd Rafi?!!!!!plz don’t do that because this is KK site and i want know more about KK,don’t say what u feel but say what is true………..i want know in how many flims KK singed from 1969 to 1976 and how songs he singed can anyone answer me that?
May 12th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
I do not know why this Bengali thing has been drawn into this debate..Bengalis listen to a lot of Bengali songs by Kishore and hence are exposed more to Kishore. Also Kishore’s gayki was closer to the Bengali heart. Having said that, there are millions of rafi fans in bengal, including me. To me Indian music had 3 distinct eras-pre-Rafi era, Rafi era and post-Rafi era. In the pre-Rafi era we had MDs like Anil Biswas, Khemchand Prakash and singers like Saigal, Durrani. In the post Rafi era, quality of songs went downhill though KK, Lata and Asha were there. Rafi was the first one to break from the Saigal, Durrani style and introduce the style that lasts even today. If you liten to KK in his early days, he was imitating Saigal..He changed in the 1950s. To that extent, he was also a follower of the Rafi gharana.
To be fair, let us categorize the different categories of songs of songs in Hindi films and try to name the top 3 male singers in each category (this is my ranking and preference btw, #1 being the best):
A. Classical- 1. Manna De 2. Mohd Rafi 3. Bhupinder Singh
B. Thumris and Ghazals- 1. Mohd. Rafi 2. Talat Mehmood 3. Jagjit Singh
C. Western Rock: 1. Kishore Kumar 2. Amit Kumar 3. Mohd Rafi
D. Devotional: 1. Mohd Rafi 2. Mahendra Kapoor 3. Narendra Chanchal/Manna De
E. Sad songs-1. Mohd Rafi 2. Mukesh 3. Kishore Kumar (some people may swap #1 and #2)
F. Happy songs- 1. Kishore Kumar 2. Mohd. Rafi 3. Lot of new singers (Sonu, Sanu, Udit………)
G Patriotic songs: 1. Mohd Rafi 2. Mahendra Kapoor 3. Manna De
I love Kishore songs as well, but I would welcome anyone to fill the list and explore if there is ANY category where Rafi does not figure. To me he is the bridge between the world of Kishore and the world of Mehdi Hasaan and Ghulam Ali.. Rafi was a phenomenon. Kishore’s expressions are understandable, he was an actor. But where did this man who was an introvert get all the expressions that we hear in “Chalkaye jaam” and “Arre Sambhalo (Khuda Kasam)”..
May 13th, 2007 at 3:00 am
Sorry missed another classification:
H. Qawwali 1. Nusrat 2. Mohd Rafi 3. Manna De/Sailendra Singh
In short there is no song catgory where Rafi does not appear
May 13th, 2007 at 4:30 am
Manish, the concert I referred to did not feature Lata; it had RD & Asha, Kishore and Rafi (in that order). At the same venue, Rafi performed along with Bhupinder and Runa Laila in 1979, and with Kishore and Runa Laila in 1977. I was fortunate to attend all of them. In 1967 at the Rabindra Sadan Stadium in Kolkata, the whole world of music was there for the Ashok Kumar Nite, but riots broke out before Rafi, Lata, Kishore or Mukesh could reach the venue! That’s Kolkata for you; not a place for the weak-hearted.
Sudip, I liked your analysis but I’d differ with you on two points. For classical songs, I would rate Rafi No. 1. Madhuban mein radhika is the kohinoor of Indian film music, and Man tadpat hari darshan is the finest exposition of Malkhauns to date. It’s difficult to pigeonhole Rafi into any genre, unlike Manna whom we view mainly a classical singer, Talat as a ghazal singer or Mukesh as a singer of sad songs.
I’d rate Rafi No. 1 in the rock ‘n roll category too. He was the first to sing in that genre (Laal laal gaal jaan pe hai labu in Mr. X) and he worked wonders for Shammi; for example, listen to Aaj kal tere mere pyar ke charche from Brahmachari or Aaja aaja main hun pyar tera. The way the way the western audiences have reacted to a much lesser known song from Gumnam (Jaan pechchan ho has been used in the titles of Ghost World) is incredible.
The dimension that Kishore was better in — again, in my humble opinion — was in songs like Yeh jo mohabbat hai, Yeh dil na hota bechara, Yeh kya hua, Zindagi ek safar, Bhanwre ke gunjan and yes, at the risk of committing blasphemy, Tum bin jawoon kahan. I don’t know how to label that genre, probably just call it the Kishore genre, so unique was his full-throated rendition in those songs. I also sometimes wonder if Rafi could have the had the same effect as Kishore in Phoolon ke rang se (Prem Pujari) but I think the old man made a wise decision. Ultimately, it’s the effect that matters and the fact that Kishore could dethrone the mighty Rafi is a tribute to his talent. Rafi came back in 1976 with a bang and at the time of his death, both he and Kishore were at the top. What would have happened if Rafi didn’t die prematurely is anybody’s guess, but it’d be fair to point out that he had the momentum and RD was being forced to use Rafi more and more. If Kya hua tera wada and Maine poochha chand se were in the Tumne mujhe dekha genre, Yamma yamma belonged to the Aaja Aaja main hoon pyar tera style. And I couldn’t believe that RD could compose qawaalis till I heard Hai agar dushman (HKKN) and Pal do pal ke saath hamara (Burning Train). But before RD and Rafi could recreate their memories of the 60s in the 80s, the man Kolkatans lovingly called ROFI was gone!
May 13th, 2007 at 10:04 am
Kishoreda is infinity times better than Rafi.
May 13th, 2007 at 11:37 am
kishore’da by far is the best playback singer,he had everything inspite of not receiving any formal training, the 50’s and 60’s belonged to rafi..but after aradhana, it was a single way journey to the top for kishore, and he is still there as an uncrowned king!
May 13th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Bapan, you’re totally wrong, you’re a bengali and KK was ben[gali]… Rafi Saheb is the best playback singer of India.
May 13th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Manish Kumar, i do agree with you……. Rafi Saheb was a legends legend.
May 13th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
Sir Jayanta,
Are you KK fan?!!!!!!do u know who used this word uncrowned king?Do u think that Aradhana was hit because of Music if yes there are two mohd Rafi super hit songs with Lata ji….would u please give me list of KK flims from 1969 to 1976…….Do u know who is KK?
Sir Sudip,
thanks for u list of Western Rock as u said 1. Kishore Kumar 2. Amit Kumar 3. Mohd Rafi!!!!!but If u know first bollywood song was copied was rock song made by Ravi and singed by Mohd Rafi,u put KK and Amit Kummar before Mohd Rafi!!!!!!!!in flims songs no one can be number one else than mohd rafi………….
sorry to say there some people in this site they don’t know about kk how great actor he was they try to say some thing said to other like uncrowned king said by Raj Kapoor to Mohd Rafi he didn’t Mohd Rafi but he said the true
May 13th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
Music directors like Anil Biswas, C. Ramchandra, Salil Chaudhry, etc… who were anti Rafi never reached to top, but they came down very fast. But others like SJ, Naushad, LP, KA, Ravi, etc.. prefered Rafi Saheb remained on top. This shows Rafi Saheb’s high class.
May 14th, 2007 at 2:53 am
P Haldar:
I agree with your analysis but I have my own ranking.. But more importantly, your comment on Kishore’s style is absolutely correct. It is very difficult to argue with Kishore’s fans because they only care about that genre. If you confine your preferences to that genre, you cannot like anyone other than Kishore (and possibly his son). Technically it is the same gayki used in Rabindra Sangeets-full throated voice with lot of bass. Rafi’s technique and style is closer to another line of Bengali songs i.e. Nazrool Geeti. Based on similar judgements, I prefer Nazrool Geeti to Rabindra Sangeet. Kishore’s voice is golden but pretty unidimensional with a few variations here and there, the tone is pretty much the same irrespective of the mood. Rafi’s voice is like a river with variations in every turn.
This is the reason why sentimental songs of Kishore can be played anywhere, in puja pandals, in weddings, everywhere.. Rafi makes a clear distinction in treatment between songs that are made for puja pandals and songs that can be only listened to in pensive solitude. I have never heard “Aapke haseen rukh pe aaj naya noor hai” or “Tumse kahoon ek baat” or “Kahin ek masoom nazuk si ladki” in puja pandals.
No one has responded to my list of categories/genres and tried to see how the greats figure in that list..If they had done, they would clearly find out why the Outlook magazine and countless people nominated Rafi as the greatest playback singer of all time.
May 14th, 2007 at 8:46 am
Undoubtedly,Kishoreda is the greatest of all playback singers.Initially he focussed more on acting,he was also a great actor.Later,when he turned only to singing,Rafi and other singers were sweeped out.
May 14th, 2007 at 8:48 am
Yes Jayanta,Kishoreda is the king.Everyone fromRD,SD,LP,K-A,Rajesh Roshan,Bappi Lahiri,Hemant Kumar,Salilda,Anil Biswas preferred Kishoreda to any other singer.
May 14th, 2007 at 9:58 am
Dear Sudip,
I’m glad to know that there’s someone on the same wavelength. The three songs of Rafi’s that you mention were composed by OP, Madan Mohan and Khayyam, all Rafi loyalists. In particular, I have immense respect for Madan Mohan for never wavering in his support for Rafi, even during his lean period. What pains me is when people start attributing compositions like “Tum jo mil gaye ho” to their loRD. It started with the SD tunes, some of which may be valid. But when some of those fanatics started claiming that “Kahin bekhayal hokar” from Teen Deviyan was also copied by the old man from his son, I realized that these guys would say anything to prove their point. A recent thread in this group has discovered the similarities between “Kuchh na kaho kuchh bhi na kaho” (1942: A Love Story) and Dekhi Zamane ke Yaari” (Kagaz ke Phool). I won’t be surprised if someday there’s an announcement that it was actually the younger Burman who composed the latter tune! Actually, the other hit from 1942 (Ed ladki ko dekha to aisa laga) is reminiscent of Rafi’s “Dil ka bhanwar kare pukar” (TGKS). Needless to say, if Kishore and Rafi were both alive and if RD had the power to dictate, both the 1942 songs would have gone to his favourite Kishore. SD’s selection of singers, on the other hand, was exceptionally good, rivaled perhaps by SJ.
We are blessed that our country produced such great singers as Kishore, Lata, Manna, Asha, Mukesh and Geeta. But in the history of playback singing, Rafi stands as the tallest (no offence to Kishore fans; they are entitled to their own opinions). Unlike the Mangeshkar sisters, Rafi did not have a publicity machine and he didn’t care for one either. To him it was the song that mattered. And when I listen to the strains of “Dekhi zamane ke yari” almost 50 years after he lip-synched for Guru Dutt, I don’t think there’s any singer — dead or alive, male or female, North or South, Bengali or non-Bengali — who would even come close.
May 14th, 2007 at 10:20 am
Sudip, rather than focusing on genres, I have listed below the singers who are similar to Rafi in different ways:
Kishore’s vibrance and “masti”
Asha’s versatility and range
Lata’s technical perfection and melody
Manna’s “ustadi”
Mukesh’s pathos
Talat’s silky touch
Geeta’s sensuousness
Hemant’s sweetness
May 14th, 2007 at 10:43 am
Oops God !!! I have told infinite times not to compare like this. It seems most of the above
are just crap, except few tells some truth but not foolish.
Some of the above posts are really horrible, I mean I doubt on their age and maturity.
They are great siners man, Rafi vs. Kishore debate is just too much.
Again this religion fact is so ugly. Learn some manner man and change your attitude.
May 14th, 2007 at 11:20 am
Hi Messi, the KK-Rafi wars used to be much worse when they were alive. Believe me, they have become much more subdued now. Those days, you couldn’t say anything good about the singer in the other camp, such was the animosity. We should all try to tone down a bit, especially with respect to religion and ethnicity.
Sudip, you made a very interesting remark on the two different styles of Rabindra sangeet and Nazrul geeti (for the uninitiated, those are respectively the compositions of Rabindranath Tagore and Kazi Nazrul Islam, two of Bengal’s greatest poets). Satyajit Ray made excellent use of Kishore in Charulata (Ami chini go chi tomare). Much later, when Rajesh Roshan lifted the tune of another Rabindra sangeet (Tomar holo suru amar holo sara) for the “Chhoo kar mere manko” song in Yarana, Kishore was incredible. It sounded better than the original! Rafi, as you have rightly pointed out, would be way ahead in Nazrul geeti given that it’s closer to classical-based ghazals. In fact, he cut an LP disc titled “Aajo modhuro bansori baaje” a month or two before he died. But I want to point out that Rabindra sangeet itself has a myriad of styles, some of which are classical-based, and I’d venture to add that Rafi would have done full justice to those songs. The song “Piu bole piya bole” from Parineeta is also based on a Rabindra sangeet and I’m sure Rafi would have excelled in that soft, romantic song too.
May 14th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
rafi fans must admit, that rafi was going great guns during the 50’s and 60’s, where most great MDs’ prefferred him more, but during tat time, kishore was concentrating more on acting rather than more on singing!
and after aradhana things changed altogether, kishore rose to the top, and it was a one way journey!
May 14th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
“fromRD,SD,LP,K-A,Rajesh Roshan,Bappi Lahiri,Hemant Kumar,Salilda,Anil Biswas preferred Kishoreda to any other singer.”
They went with the tide (producers’ preference).
And who told you that KK was #1 singer for Hemant, SD and LP?
-Hemanta’s son in a recent interview has stated that his dad used to think that there was no one even close to Rafi (even Nitin Mukesh had a similar opinion).
-Rafi was undoubtedly SD’s favorite singer. Even during the lean days, SD made sure Rafi gets some footprint in the songs. Rafi weaved magic with the single songs he got in Abhimaan and Gambler, for instance.
-Time and again, LP has told that Rafi was their numero uno singer. KK had sung 396 songs for LP and Rafi had sung 369, but 140 of those KK songs were recorded after Rafi’s death.
Pls check facts before commenting.
May 15th, 2007 at 6:38 am
Adding:
“fromRD,SD,LP,K-A,Rajesh Roshan,Bappi Lahiri,Hemant Kumar,Salilda,Anil Biswas preferred Kishoreda to any other singer.”
They went with the tide (producers’ insistence because Kishore was selling).
And who told you that KK was #1 singer for Hemant, SD and LP?
-Hemanta’s son (Jayanta Mukherjee) in a recent interview has stated that his dad used to think that there was no one even close to Rafi (even Nitin Mukesh had a similar opinion).
-Rafi was undoubtedly SD’s favorite singer. Even during the lean days, SD made sure Rafi gets some footprint in the songs. Rafi weaved magic with the single songs he got in Abhimaan and Gambler, for instance.
-Time and again, LP has told that Rafi was their numero uno singer. KK had sung 396 songs for LP and Rafi had sung 369, but 140 of those KK songs were recorded after Rafi’s death.
-Mukesh was K-A’s favorite singer, not Kishore. Kishore may have sung more songs for KA, but that does not prove anything. It is like saying Anu Malik prefers Alka to Lata because Alka has sung more songs for him. It is purely a circumstantial issue, nothing to do with who he thinks a better singer is.
-Same with Rajesh Roshan. They used Rafi selectively because of their style. Unless Rajesh thought his dad (Roshan) was an idiot, who understood zilch of music, there is no reason why he would think badly of Rafi.
That leaves us with RD and Bappi. I have nothing to tell about RD except thay wanted a fresh voice and Kishore provided that.
Bappi was Kishore’s nephew..I do not need to justify further.
Pls check facts before commenting.
May 15th, 2007 at 8:14 am
Sudip - I have some questions. Can you rank the singers used the most by Shankar Jaikishan? Also, are you sure about SD choosing Rafi the most? I agree this was the case before 1969 but when RD took over, SD had little say. Did SD ever really compose after 1969 and if so, didn’t he “realize” that Kishore was the way to go (essentially, SD changed his mind to Kishore now seeing the popularity)? I of course, like Rafi the most, but I do think Kishore provided a fresh alternative after Rafi had dominated for 20 years and so the shift in dominance for a short while was inevitable.
Interesting point about LP - when I read the beginning of your sentence, I was shocked - and then I realized yeah, they recorded more with KK after 1980.
May 15th, 2007 at 10:57 am
Hi Guys,
There was nothing wrong in SD, RBD’s way of thinking. They just tried with different
singers, they know the calibre of the singers so gave different songs to different singers
and when you listen to them, you will feel this is the only singer who can do justice to this
song. This is how it works, it’s not that others can’t sing it.
Be it Hum kisi se Kam nahi, Guide, Amar Prem, Aradhana: songs are of different genres
so the voices suit them perfectly. Don’t find faults in Singers and Composers man.
Sudip, Haldar I agree. Let’s now move on to discussing different short stories/conversations
between Rafi and Kishore. Whoever knows anything, please post.
At least, stop this good, the bad and the ugly business.
May 15th, 2007 at 11:25 am
Don’t get me wrong. I think Kishore Kumar had a terrific voice.. He is the voice of the youth.. He represents the exuberance and freshness of youth, something that rightly fit RD’s kind of music. But extending that to say he is the #1 singer is oversimplifying judgement on music.
Rafi was the #1 singer in SJ’s list, to the extent that I personally think SJ overused him. Apart from Rangoli (1962) I cannot recall any other film where Kishore gave hits under SJ banner before Aradhana. SJ used Kishore more after Aradhana, but by that time interestingly Shankar and Jaikishan had also parted (though they were operating under the SJ banner). To the best of my knowledge one preferred KK while the other preferred Rafi after their separation.
SD’s post-Aradhana association with Rafi is excellently captured here:
http://inhome.rediff.com/movies/2000/oct/31burman.htm
I think there were two factors in play here:
1. Producers usually went with the market pulse and it is an established fact that Kishore’s freshness was well accepted among the masses during the early 1970s.
2. The arrival of new set of actors also heralded this transition. Lot of music directors like KA always went for an actor-singer combination. Kishore was Kalyanji’s de-facto choice for Amitabh and Rajesh Khanna (Raaz, Choti Bahu, etc are exceptions), Rafi for Vinod Khanna, Shashi Kapoor and Anil Dhawan, Mahendra Kapoor for Manoj Kumar (there were few exceptions here and there). I doubt if Amitabh had Rajendra Kumar’s personality and voice, the transition would have been that welcome.
May 15th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Dear Sudip,
If there is real king as MD I think RD is not in best five,As I think the best is 1,SJ boz they had hit songs With all singer who singed for they,2,Naushand boz he changed the way f music,3,LP after SJ I think they had hit with most of singer who singed for them,4,Madam Mohan who made magic with Mohd Rafi and Lata Ji voice,5, SD burman who dade magic with Dev Anand with Mohd Rafi as I think….
May 16th, 2007 at 6:03 am
Let us salute the singers and music directors for the gems they have delivered for us. Sudip, I’m not sure if the numbers you’ve given are correct. I’ve seen elsewhere that LP have composed the maximum songs (including duets) for Rafi, though SJ gave Rafi the maximum number of solos. Shankar was more inclined toward Manna and Mukesh, while Jai was Rafi-oriented. Being the exceptional talent that he was, Jai used Kishore very effectively too in Zindagi ek safar, Bhanwre ke gunjan and Geet gaat hoon main. But Rafi was his real star: Baharon phool barsaon, Yeh mera prempatra kar, most of the Shammi songs,… But I agree with Sudip that Jai overused Rafi to the extent that some of his songs became a trite boring. Also, Jai gave Rafi the maximum freedom to maneouvre and Rafi sometimes overdid the gimmicks part. But the biggest blow to Rafi, which surprisingly no one touches on, is Jai’s death in 1971. If Jai were alive, he could have used Rafi to counter RD’s rise. With Jai gone and OP’s fortunes going steeply downward, there was no one to give a real boost to Rafi in the early 70s.
Unlike SJ, Naushad wouldn’t give any freedom to Rafi or, for that matter, any other singer. It had to be his way. SD would give Rafi more room (e.g., the way he cracks his voice in the last stanza in Din dhal jaye or his playful banter with Asha in Achha ji main haar gaya maan jawo na) but it was always under control. In an interview SD gave in the early 70’s, he called Rafi his first serve and Kishore his second. It didn’t mean that he preferred Rafi to Kishore. What he meant was that he would try hard to serve aces with Rafi (Hum bekhudi mein tum, Khoya khoya chand, Din dhal jaye) but sometimes they went wayward. With Kishore he wanted to be more sure.
Rafi’s voice had so many degrees of freedom that it was much more difficult to rein all of them in together. Kishore’s advantage and appeal lay in the fact that he could sing straight in his open-throated, rich voice. In fact, the lack of training was to his advantage. If he had received formal training (like Rafi and Manna), I’m not sure he would have able to reach the heights he did.
In terms of MDs, for Kishore it is Burman & Burman. Take them out, and there’s not a whole lot; some LP, some KA, and some others. One of you mentioned Salil, but Salil’s favourites were Mukesh, Hemant and Talat; never cared much for Rafi or Kishore.
For Rafi here are the top MDs (the order keeps changing for me ever so often): SD, Naushad, SJ, Madan Mohan, OP, Roshan, Khayyam, LP and Ravi. Among all these MDs, SD and Madan Mohan made the most innovative experimentations with his voice.
Anil Biswas’s favourite singers were Talat, Mukesh and Manna. As for the comment he made regarding Rafi (”Rafi is no singer”), let me remind Kishore’s fans what their guru said in response: “It’s a stupid statement. I am his greatest fan”. To Rafi, what Anil, Salil or Anna said didn’t matter. At the end of the day, he knew that he was better than anyone in making your hearts sing. When you talk about Rafi, you’ll have to identify which Rafi you are talking about. There are so many Rafi’s; the Rafi of Man tadpat darshan and Man re tu kahe na dheer dhare, the Rafi of Suhani raat dhal chuki and Hum bekhudi mein tumko pukare, the Rafi of Tumhare zulf ke sayen mein and Jaane kya dhoonti rahati, the Rafi or Baharon phool barsao and Tere mere sapne, the Rafi of Madhuban mein radhika and Naache man mora magan dhikna dhiki dhiki, the Rafi of Yeh ishq ishq ishq and Parda hai parda, the Rafi of Yahoo chahe koi mujhe jungle kahe and Cuckoo mast baharon ka main aashiq, the Rafi of Aaja aaja main hoon pyar tera and Aaj kal tere mere pyar ke charche,…. The list is endless. He started so many genres in playback singing; it’s simply mind-boggling! Ultimately, Rafi can compete only with Himself.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:11 am
Glad to hear that Jaikishan was on Rafi’s side. I always liked Jaikishan over Shankar! Yeah, I had wondered what’d happen if Jaikishan had been around. Nevertheless, you forgot (of course you knew) to mention that LP was competition to RDB in the 70s. Sudip, where do you post? I recall a few years back people marvelled on your great knowledge of music. I certainly do. Thanks for your informative posts.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:12 am
Oh yeah, sorry, one more question.
Can you guys give me examples where Rafi seemed over used or the song was boring (esp Jaikishan songs!). It’d still be good I’m sure, just not the usual SJ or Rafi standards! But I’m curious…I’d like to see the sun not be so bright…if that is possible
May 16th, 2007 at 9:13 am
Actually, my question was addressed to both P Haldar and Sudip about where they post.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:34 am
Very insightful and almost ditto with my own analysis..I think the best example of Rafi’s innovations under the SJ banner is “Main kahin Kavi na ban jayoo” (Pyar hi Pyar). The antaras are sung with subtle variations, almost to an intoxicating degree. In the last antara, “Yeh jhooki jhooki nigahen” has been sung such that one can feel the eyelids drooping. Everytime I listen to this line, I get amazed to almost magical proportions. Following closely would be “Tauba tauba” in “Main Nigahen Teri Chehre Se” (App Ki Parchhaiyan)
The love for a particular type of song (which Mr Haldar bracketted as “Kishore genre”) drives most KK fans towards KK. And I think they are perfectly entitled to their opinion. Most KK fans like Rafi’s “Wadiyaan Mera daman” and the truth is I thought it is just an Okay song.. It has nothing to do with Rafi, I think it is just a flat, easy song belonging to the Kishore genre. RD could have well gone with KK for that one. I wouldn’t care less.
One Kishore song that I think never reached the popularity it deserved was “Bahut Khubsurat jawa ek ladki” (Dostana)..I think it was very well sung on a great composition.
The place where I differ with Haldar is that I never liked KK’s singing in “Chookar Mere manko”. I know I run the risk of being a minority (if not being single), but I think the song was sung in falsetto and not in true voice. If Rajesh Roshan was indeed looking for a mellowed voice he could have gone for lot of singers including our very own R..There is no point hiding true voice for falsetto.
May 16th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Mind you Rafians and Kishore Da fans (espocially Mr. Bapan)
__________________________________________________
I am sorry to read the the comments of fans of two greates ever singers in the history of film music in so far as male playback singers are concerned. It is really unfortunate that one of the Kishore Da’s Fans (Mr. Bapan) holds Kishore Da infinite times better than Rafi Saab while Rafi fans hold Rafi Saab as the best ever singer.
Both Rafi Saab and Kishore Da were/are/will always be legends of legends. All the readers will be surprised to know that despite belonging to the same field/arena of work, both the singers were great friends and had great respect for each others work/talent. Even when both were on top of the film music (Rafi Saab reportedly during 1950-1969 and Kishore Kumar reportedly 1970-1987), they refrained from saying anything bad for each other. It is only the fan fallowing of both the singers during their life time or after they are no which has for the sake of satisfying their ego or seeing their favourite singer as the best assessed singer have tried to degrade the work/rendition of other singer. Fan followings of both the singers has nor been analytic in the approach. The approach should be to praise the good works of both the singers. Rather they have adopted the practice of belittling the work/renditions of other singer in order to get their favourite the first position in the film music. They have forgotten that both Rafi Saab and Kishore Da not only were greatest ever singer but also were great human beings. Once when a film personality in the recording room of R.D. Burman tried to appease Kishore Kumar at the cost of degrading Rafi Saab, Kishore Kumar replied immediately that he himself is also a great Rafi fan and he knew how it is difficult to maintain oneself at the peak of film music for the long 20 years. Likewise, Rafi Saab had great respect for Kishore Kumar’s natural talent as a singer/actor. According to Mr. Zahir (Rafi Saab’s Brother-in-law and Secretary), whenever Rafi Saab had to sing with Kishore Da, he would say that he would laugh the whole day. Not only this, whenever Rafi Saab came across any good composition from any of his colleagues (be it Kishore Da), he would congratulate him/her/them over phone. After the release of ‘Aradhana’, when Kishore Da assumed the top position in the film music, Rafi Saab in an interview replied in response to a question that now he was getting less work that-” it is good that he would do only the selected songs and Kishore Kumar is singing very well”.
Both the singers, Rafi Saab and Kishore Da have rendered many songs which no other singer can sing to that perfection. If Rafi Saab is Tansen in the film music, Kishore Kumar is Baiju Bawra and Manna Dey is Guru Hari Das. However, this does not mean that as Baiju Bawra defeated Tansen in the music battle as per mythology, Kishore Kumar is better than Rafi Saab. Likewise, claiming Rafi to be the better singer than Kishore Kumar at the cost of maligning the work of Kishore Kumar by the Rafians is not right. We (both the fans of Rafi Saab and Kishore Da) should give full respect to both the singers keeping in view the fact that both the singers had great respect for each other and each others work/talent/rendition because only that way we would be respecting our respective favourite singers.
( NARESH KUMAR SHARMA)
A RAFIAN
nks_ab9@indiatimes.com
May 16th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Dear sir,
I agree that KK was a good singer and great actor but i don’t agree that he was at top from 1970 to 1987 becaue in 1970’s there was many new singer because Mohd Rafi went to world tour the MD was looking to some one new to sing Mohd Rafi songs one of them is Anwar.about the top as I think there is one name at the top until today.
Name like Naushand,RAVI,O P Nayar LP they beleave that there music was hit because of Mohd Rafi and we same something else Do we know how great these people are in music world?
May 17th, 2007 at 1:17 am
Manish:
SJ’s overuse of Rafi was not necessarily in terms of percentage of songs..But to me in lot of films SJ put a whole cocktail songs..I do not know if it was an SJ thing or the director’s discretion, but it is a fact that most films where SJ scored the music had a lot of songs. We come to know about the good ones, we never care about the others that never hit the charts. Take Janwar, Budtameez and Yakeen, for example. They had lot of numbers beyond the popular one. Moreover SJ mostly gave high pitch compositions to Rafi (because he could do justice to them)..But this also meant a higher burn out/overuse for Rafi for unnecessary reasons.
LP did try to go against the RD-Kishore wave, but as I said before producers and to some extent, actors were so keen on riding the tide that they also succumbed. Take 1972 for example, Kishore was in his peak form, producing hits after hits. LP used Rafi in Ek Nazar, Gora Aur Kala, Roop tera mastana, etc. If you listen to the songs you will find that qualitatively they are no less, if not better than some of the songs produced during the period. Ek Nazar, to me produced the best Amitabh Bacchan duet till date (Patta patta boota boota), but there were few takers. Roop Tera Mastana produced the most sensuous and seductive song of the period (Haseen dilruba), but it did not figure among top Jeetendra hits of the time.
Between 1971 and 1975 Kishore gave one hit after another, largely backed by the younger Burman et al. No other singer (with the exception of Kumar Sanu between 1990 and 1995-not joking, btw) in the history of Hindi movie did produce such a phenomenon in a 5 year period. Rafi’s supremacy was spread over a period-it was consistent, not a spike.
May 17th, 2007 at 1:19 am
Correcting the typos, etc:
Manish:
SJ’s overuse of Rafi was not necessarily in terms of percentage of songs..But to me in lot of films SJ put a whole cocktail of songs..I do not know if it was an SJ thing or the director’s discretion, but it is a fact that most films where SJ scored the music had a lot of songs. We come to know about the good ones, we never care about the others that never hit the charts. Take Janwar, Budtameez and Yakeen, for example. They had lot of numbers beyond the popular one. Moreover SJ mostly gave high pitch compositions to Rafi (because he could do justice to them)..But this also meant a higher burn out/overuse for Rafi for unnecessary reasons.
LP did try to go against the RD-Kishore wave, but as I said before, producers and, to some extent actors, were so keen on riding the tide that LP also succumbed. Take 1972 for example. Kishore was in his peak form, producing hits after hits. LP used Rafi in Ek Nazar, Gora Aur Kala, Roop tera mastana, etc. If you listen to the songs you will find that qualitatively they are no less, if not better than some of the songs produced during the period. Ek Nazar, to me produced the best Amitabh Bacchan duet till date (Patta patta boota boota), but there were few takers. Roop Tera Mastana produced the most sensuous and seductive song of the period (Haseen dilruba), but it did not figure among top Jeetendra hits of the time.
Between 1971 and 1975 Kishore gave one hit after another, largely backed by the younger Burman et al. No other singer (with the exception of Kumar Sanu between 1990 and 1995-not joking, btw) in the history of Hindi movie did produce such a phenomenon in a 5 year period. Rafi’s supremacy was spread over a period-it was consistent, not a spike.
May 17th, 2007 at 4:59 am
I’d urge some of the RAFIans to cool down a bit on their anti-Bengali rhetoric. Imagine film music without the likes of Pankaj Mullick, Raichand Boral, Anil Biswas, K. C. Dey, S. D. Burman, Salil Chowdhury, Hemant Kumar, Manna Dey, Geeta Dutt, R. D. Burman and Kishore Kumar. And there are so many others — Runa Laila, Arati Mukherji, Bappi Lahiri, Kumar Sanu — to name only a few.
The day after Rafi died, AIR Calcutta invited Raichand Boral, one of the stalwarts of New Theatres and Bombay Talkies, to say a few words. This is what I recollect about what he said. Boral was composing a song in the kirtan style (a Bengali devotional form of singing) and he was a little apprehensive about a Punjabi Muslim being able to do full justice to the song. If Rafi was not up to the mark, he thought he would get Bengal’s own Dhananjoy Bhattacharyya to sing the kirtan. Anyway, Rafi was summoned to the rehearsal room. After a couple of rehearsals, Rafi requested Boral to give him a few minutes of free time. During that time, Boral recalled, Rafi went to one corner of the room, did his namaz, and came back for the final take. Boral was simply floored when he heard the final version.
K. C. Dey, the famous blind singer of Bengal and Manna Dey’s uncle, also used to love Rafi. Manna Dey, in his autobiography (Jeeboner jolsaghore), narrates how his uncle used to make him sing a composition several times and then ask him to call Rafi to pick up the tune. SD used to do the same. Salil, contrary to public opinion, did not dislike Rafi; in fact, he held him in high esteem. Salil’s centerpiece was Lata and his surrounding cast included Mukesh, Talat and Hemant. Salil was brilliant, but not an allrounder in the SD or SJ sense. Even if he had used Rafi more, I don’t think it would have elevated him to a higher level. His tunes were ideal for Mukesh and Talat.
The Bengali MD who missed out big time on Rafi was RD. Here was a composer with so much raw talent and with such a great understanding of orchestration (SJ, Salil and OP were also excellent in orchestration). But somehow he kept Rafi at a distance. And Chhote Nawab could compose in so many idioms — rock ‘n roll, classical, folk, soft romantic, etc. Yet, except in the 60s when he had no choice and in the late 70’s during Rafi’s second coming, he totally disregarded Rafi. Take Mere Nain Sawan Bhadon; where was the need to use Kishore for that song? Kishore fans, please don’t get upset; Kishore himself lists that song in his top 10 list, but you know what I mean? Or take Hume tumse pyar kitna (I’m not 100% sure whether Rafi was alive at the time). These songs are not Kishore’s forte. But the real missed opportunity was Badi sooni sooni re from Mili; it was an SD composition but the story is that because of Dada’s ill health, RD did the final recording. If SD were calling the shots, I can’t be fully sure if he would have used Rafi, given that by that time his loyalties were shifting Kishore-ward, but can you imagine the effect had Rafi sung the song? Probably another Hum bekhudi mein tumko pukare chale gaye! Incidentally, Kishore lists this song also in his top 10.
On the other side of the coin, let’s look at an example of a song that Kishore could have done full justice to. Rafi actually playbacked for Kishore in this song: Ajab hai dastan teri hai zindagi in the film Shararat. SJ were the composers. Think about the tune; Kishore could have sung this song easily and effectively in his unique, straight voice. But we need to admire Kishore for giving the song to Rafi without a fuss. The effect? Any less? I’ll let you decide.
May 17th, 2007 at 5:03 am
This analysis here is interesting. Both Rafi and KK were great singers, but I am with P. Haldar and Sudip on this one, Rafi was indeed a phenomenon, but this is not to degrade other singers in any way possible. KK was also a genuine talent, and had his own unique style.
P. Haldar, you read my mind about SJ. I have always wondered what if Jai were alive, how the situation would have been different. SJ officialy broke up after Sangam, in fact they composed seperately right from the 50’s, however they used to work on eachothers songs together, give inputs etc. It was only after Sangam that they actually composed seperately for different banners but also coming together for projects. However both were inclined towards Rafi, and they both composed beauties for him.
The interesting part is that after Jai passed away, most of the SJ banners went to RDB. Contrary to popular belief, SJ were not finished by 1970, they had many big banners signed for future films with all the big filmmakers and producers and with one single stroke it all broke down and Shankar had to pick up the pieces by himself with all those banners gone. Had Jai lived, I think the situation would have been different. Mind you, KK would still have gotten his time to shine in the early to mid seventies, but with a different scenario. As we know it, it was a battle between RD, LP, KA and even SD on the charts with others following suit, with contributions here and there. Out of the four it was the Burmans mostly towards KK, also using Rafi, LP was to Rafi but also using KK, and KA struck a balance. Had Jai been alive, he would have probably used KK but Rafi would have definitely there as well, most likely even more. The top song of 1971 was Jai’s Zindagi Ek Safar by KK, he passed away way too young, in fact at the age of just 39, he still had a lot in him, and Shankar would have not gone out the way he did had Jai lived. RDB also had immense regard for Jai, he was influenced by his jazz compositions and by his talent, Jai taught Kalyanji balancing and mixing in the studios and ofcourse Laxmikant was a huge Jai fan, just like Rafi was a phenomenon so were SJ, and for me particularly Jai, no one could compose romantic songs the way he could. He was the complete composer by all standards.
Secondly, the Bengali topic gets out of hand sometimes, I know of a huge lot of Bengali’s who are Rafi fans. It is the media who has created the impression that the majority of Bengali’s don’t like Rafi and like KK because he was Bengali, this is utter nonesense and crap (mind the language), I hope people do not believe such idiotic statements.
Another interesting point is that although we here of RD-KK, RD-Rafi has been underappreciated. I acknowledge RD as a trendsetter, he was a very talented musician even though he looked to inspirations from the West quite a bit, I wish he had used Rafi a bit more. But he did use Rafi for many great songs, and was his second most used singer for most of his career. If you look at RD’s memorable songs from the 70’s and early 80’s. it will have Rafi right there, that is where the irony lies. Take Churaliya Hai Tumne, Maine Poocha (which was a whopper Rafi hit when released), Kya Hua Tera, one of his finest from the 70’s, Gulaabi Aankhen etc. Rafi is right there. RD’s best albums contain Rafi, and after HKSKN RD could never achieve the same success until 1942 ALS. Yes, he did have a soft spot for KK and that is understandable. It is popular belief that RD didn’t compose for Rafi after Aradhana, which is again false, in fact he was right there until 1972. RD composed for many low-budget films and in those films there are many hidden gems by all singers including Rafi and the early 70’s was RD’s most creative period. From about 73-76 we have Rafi making choice appearances, some attribute this to RD looking at Rafi from only a meledious angle, yet they were nice songs, and then 76 onwards he returns more frequently. We did miss out on the RD-Rafi magic, most of the 80’s.
I also agree with Sudip, Rafi would feature in any category of singing, its not a fair comparison for Rafi to be matched against any singer. Also Rafi would feature in many MD’s top list, whereas for KK it is mostly the Burmans, as pointed out followed by others. But this does NOT take anything away from KK being a great singer in his own right.
P. Haldar and Sudip, I am interested in knowing your views on RDB vis a vis Rafi, what is your take on this combination.
May 17th, 2007 at 6:39 am
I forgot to mention, that both S & J also did think highly of RDB. Satish Wagle the producer of ‘Namak Haram’ (and one of Jai’s close friends) wanted Shankar to do the score that film, after Jai passed away, but Shankar insisted he give the film to RDB because RD was talented and coming up as an MD.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:10 am
Besides the Burmans who really backed Kishore, the other MD’s Kishore sang for quite a bit were LP, Bappi Lahiri, Rajesh Roshan, and KA. LP and KK combined for quite a few songs between 80-87 when Rafi had passed away. For Rafi, the MD list is endless.
Yes, I fully agree RD missed out big on using Rafi. Rafi sang about 120 odd songs compared to the almost 600 that Kishore sang for the Junior Burman. I don’t think that was justice to Rafi’s talent. RD hardly paid attention to Rafi for his classical based themes as well. There are ofcourse the qawwalis, but in films like Kinara, Aandhi, Parichay etc. he chose Bhupinder instead, not to say Bhupinder didn’t do a good job, its just that the Rafi effect would have been different.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:32 am
Hi myk, I discussed issues related to the RD-Rafi combo in my previous email. But I think you are more interested in knowing why RD didn’t use Rafi a little more. Honestly, I don’t know what the correct answer is, but I don’t think it was out of malice, given that RD was a genuinely nice soul. If you force me to give me an answer, I would say that RD wanted to break away from his father’s shadow, and what better way than to sideline Rafi? Trendsetters do things that go against the run-of-the-mill thinking, and if you consider that group of MDs, the top ones were SJ, OP, SD and RD. All of them did things that were pretty unconventional.
There is another hypothesis that you could mull on. It is not founded on any evidence, but I just have that sneaking suspicion that at the back of his mind RD knew that if Rafi came back on top, LP could give him hell with their favourite weapon. That is exactly what happened after HKHN; LP started giving the entire score of a film (e.g., Sargam) to Rafi, which meant that RD had to follow suit. Record songs with Rafi and have jalebi and halwa at Rafi’s favourite sweet shop thereafter.
After Rafi died, Nitin Mukesh told an interviewer that the rate at which Rafi was signing songs in 1980 would keep singers like him waiting for years. God only knows how many of those songs would have been composed by RD. Rafi’s death affected LP the most, but they somehow managed to adjust, while after Kishore’s death, RD was gone.
As for SJ, you can easily identify who among the two composed a tune by looking at the lyricist. Barring a few instances, if it is Shailendra it is Shankar, and if it is Hasrat it is Jaikishan. Both extraordinary talents, with the former more inclined toward Mukesh and Manna, and the latter toward Rafi. As for the female singer, Lata was their one and only choice, till Sharda came to the scene and knocked the hyphen off the duo. When Rafi and Lata fought, contrary to the lies spread by the media (especially the Raju Bharatan kind) that Rafi was hurt more, SJ happily used Suman Kalyanpur with Rafi, SD used Asha with Rafi (though Gaata rahen might have gone to Rafi if they had patched up before), and even Naushad and Madan Mohan had to be content with Asha. The only music directors who did some balancing were LP and KA, who most probably would have given fewer duets to Mukesh and Mahendra Kapoor had the titan and the titaness nor quarrelled.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:32 am
Dear Mr.Messy ….( This is to Messy )
How Udit become far better singer than Sonu nigam..Udit has a unique mellow voice and stlye i commit…But sonu nigam is something different..technically perfect and can go to any pitch..his Voice is just take us to anywhere…Sonu can sing udit’s song easily…but is udit can sing any difficult song of sonu to that rhythm…? tell me honestly..the one like ‘Mere rang de’, like ‘Kismat se tum’, like ’sathiya’, ……
I like Udit very much..cant forget the his song like ‘pehla nasha’..some time KK sing beutifully than Udit…but as a perfect singer i will point out Sonu Nigam ……..
May 17th, 2007 at 9:36 am
Kishoreda is just way ahead than Rafi as a singer.That’s it.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:37 am
Kishoreda is the grtest singer of all times.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:39 am
Kishoreda’s largest fan club in orkut has 68,000 members while Rafi’s 10,000.This just shows what Kishoreda is.In fact,Kishoreda is the most popular singer,no other Indian singer has more fans than Kishoreda in orkut.People of every age,status prefer Kishoreda.In orkut,even Shaan,Sonu,Hariharan and Balasubramaniyam has more fans than Rafi.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:15 am
I mentioned Bhupinder for Aandhi earlier, a typo, it was Kishore-based, but Rafi could have been used along with Kishore in films such as Amar Prem, Khushboo, Mehbooba etc. This is not to say that KK did not do a good job, he did very well in the songs from these films.
Whenever RD composed for Gulzar, there was something unique about it, however the only great song Rafi sang for this combo is “Jab Ek Kaza” from Devta. The other Rafi songs from Aandhi, Ghar etc. are just average IMO if you compare them to the KK songs from the same films.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:35 am
Hey guyzz..Dont Compare Rafi with Kishore…Hey How cruel to do so..
Rafi is the greatest of all….
i stick to comment of ‘irony81′ did on may 12th…its just like comparing sachin to afridi…
Rafi came from a very poor family in Punjab…every one knows how he raised up…
Y kishore can’t train the music..does not he has money to give dakshina to his guru..so funny…..
Dear Bengali Bors and sisters Kishoreda is from ur place everyone love the fame from theirown place but dont keep hide the truth..the same happened to Saurav’s case…
If So I Must stick and Compare Legend YesuDAS to Rafi Saheb…as am from kerala….The number of National awards he recieved is itself pove that …But He itself said and says about Rafi that ” Rafi saab was my guru in the heart. his songs guided me to the path of music..”
Any hard song he make easier…that’s the talent..
Every year the small,hindi less used state like kerala conduct Rafis memmorial programs,concerts ..at every districts even…pple will shock,that much Rafi is to southindians…so no need to ask about northies.
This is my experience when i went to Russia ,I asked a Guy there who all u knw in india, he said ” I know Amit ( meant Bachan),I know Khan (He meant Sharukh), I know Mohammed Rafi ”
that’s what he is ….
Am TRAINED IN karnatic and hindustani …i knw abt something abt music…So Rafi is Rafi ….No one can near to him..sometimes Sonu nigam is better than Kishore Kumar …
May 17th, 2007 at 10:36 am
I am fully with Mr Halder when he says that some some of the
songs Kishore sung could have been different - become classics
like Hum Bekhudi me tumko… if RAFI HAD sung it. What about a
RAFI version of Chingari koi badhke - for a variety and a
comparative purpose..
KK is a great singer but he had great limitations. R.D.Burman another
great talent under utilised Mohd Rafi for some reasons - and paid
a price for it.
LAXMIKANT PYARELAL USED KISHORE KUMAR VERY DEFTLY
THUS SUCCESSFULLY IN MANY SONGS.
The point I wish to state is that music lovers lost good songs from
the R.D-RAFI stable.. in the seventies…
binu nair…
May 17th, 2007 at 10:55 am
Mr. Halder saab:
I like your lines. YOU HAVE COME OUT WITH SOME CLASSIC
COMMENTS in the above articles. Please keep it up…. and if
possible please contact me on :
binus2000@hotmail.com
May 17th, 2007 at 11:47 am
To me, the RD-Kishore association was a win-win. Because Rafi was so consistent and almost “boringly” perfect with all the music directors, that the only way RDB could create a differentiator with other music directors of that time was through a new voice. Kishore offered that perfectly. What hurt Rafi however was that RD did not use him even for classical numbers during the period, most of them going to either Manna or Bhupinder.
Continuing on P. Haldar’s reasonling of Kishore’s success from simplicity, I sincerely doubt if Hamen tumse pyar kitna would have been as big a hit had Rafi sung it. First of all, had rafi sung it, RD would have retained the strains of the female version in the male version as well (he was forced to simplify the male version at Kishore’s failure to render the classical version), and Rafi would have matched Parveen Sultana in every note. Such a classical number might not have been as big a hit.
As far as RDB is concerned, he did produce a lot of hits with Rafi- Caravan , The Train, , Teesri Manzil, Yadon Ki Baraat, Abhilasha, Pyar Ka Mausam, HKKN, Shaan, Abdullah being the salient ones. But my favorite numbers are: Zamane ne marey (Baharon Ki Sapne) and Pyar Hai Ik Nishan Qadmon Ka (Mukti), the former being from the pre-Aradhana period and the latter from the post-HKKN period. The former one also had Rajesh Khanna in the main lead. It is a superb song, to that fact it is ironical that the RDB-Rajesh Khanna combo brought about the end to Rafi’s monopoly
in male playbck singing.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
to me it is RAFI KJ JESUDAS KISHORE KUMAR (1 2 3)
May 17th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Oops !!! I can’t help it man. Naresh Kumar Sharma ji, I loved what you said.
A perfect analysis and good article. But I can’t stop them from writing such bad
posts, even you have posted that message, they keep writing the same thing.
I feel sorry. You are right what you said. But they won’t understand, they will be
doing what they have been doing. See the analysis, aisa lagta hai
uchi makan phika pakwan. Log kya kya baatein kar rahe hain. Inka ye style thik nahi
tha. Kishore is better, Rafi is the best. ye gaana rafi se behtar kishore ne gaya.
aur to aur chhookar mere man ko, ye gaane mein kishore ka voice thik nahi tha
matlab not in true voice. bade logon ke bade bade baatein.
jitni zyada analysis utni hee pakav analysis. Log aadat se majboor hai, nahi sudhrenge.
Thank you naresh kumar ji for such a nice comment.
May 17th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
Both Rafi and kk were great individually.
it is foolishness to compare different personalities , both are unparrereled. Right from beginning till year 2000 film industries ruled by financier and disttributors .Producer directors were puppet infront of financers and they are directed according to film distributors/financiars to sale theire forth coming.and to keep financer happy producer fix according to theire choice that who will be singer /even cast/md etc etc according to salebility of them. Before aradhana kk sang mostly for comedians ,jokers,and second leading hero .only dev /sd/rd/had given him chance in navketan that also Rafi as aregular , .thats why kk started his own production house to exploit himself.;and produced beautyful film like doo gagan ki chhao main etc.It was adark period of kk but whenever he got chance he pearformed well.
B’for aradhana in his own starrer or else like” pyarkiye jaa,jwelve thief,rangoli,teen deviyan,ek muthi aasman,bhoot bangla” etc etc.he did good.
ok ! After aaradhna Rajesh khanna become super star who was earlier signed by Navrang studio (andheri) being run by shakti samanta,pramod chakraborty,ramanand sagar,j.om prakash etc etc so every producer of navrang strted announcing theire forth coming with RK as rk was being paid by them since long and rk started recomending producer and director to signed kk as his singer.and that way kk came full fledgly in to market and it is good that we are getting chance to hear both legend.
rest on you to believe it or not but one thing is important dont waste time in wrong issue debate ,as per hindu philosophy wait and watch theire reincernation…. till then listen and valued them what they left for us.
May 17th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
Well done true music lovers especially the most knowledgeable Sudip,Manish,Haldar,Naresh Sharma,MYKand some others who has commented above very analytically.
The great composers Shanker Jaikishen, S.D.Burman,Naushad,O.P.Nayyar,Roshan,Ravi,Madan Mohan and Laxmikant Pyarelal who had dominated the fabulous 50s and the swinging 60s used only the great Rafi Sahab for majority of the songs. Mind u those days films had 10 songs easily and the two stalwarts Rafi sahab n Lataji dominated the proceedings. In my opinion this period was the BEST IN PRODUCING EVERGREEN MELODIES BY THE ABOVE COMPOSERS WHERE RAFI SAHAB TOTALLY DOMINATED. Yes there was Mukeshji who confined to RK films and Kalyanji Anandji music, Manna da was good in classical character and few comedian filmed songs. Kishore da playbacked for Dev Anand and himself in the few films he had sung.
Many of us are not aware that Shanker Jaikishen used Rafi Sahab for almost 364 films and LP for 373 films. Infact another surprise for me was that pre Aradhna SDB used Rafi Sahab for 90 films out of 120 films. Please elucidate these facts for me Sudip, Manish,Haldar.Myk and Naresh.
Amongst Naushad, Madan Mohan, OPN it was also Rafi all the way. Now we know Roshan and Ravi the melodious composers picked up their best bet Rafi over Mukesh n Mahendra in that order ( As BR Chopra was close to Mahendra).
Once again Rafi sahab came with a big bang in the 77-80 period thanks to Rafi Bakths like LP,Madan Mohan ( who stood by Rafi in Laila Majnu in 75).
Yes the two good friends Rafi Sahab and Kishore da dominated this period but the melody or the songs of earlier magic was lacking as the music dynamics changed. The tastes of listeners changed drastically. This is my opinion and the two legends did their best to ring the charts under LP who dominated the proceedings followed by Rajesh Roshan,RDB,Bappi Lahiri and KA in that order.
The blind fans Debojit and Bapan are ignorant of the facts and they repeat parrot like in the above blog. Also Kumar Sanu who is a clone had played Rafi Sahab song Tum Mujhe bula na paoge in the Jaimala program in radio in 1985. Abhijeet another clone always revered his favorite legends but also worships Rafi Sahab and had sung Shammi Kapoor songs in T series. Shaan loves Kishore da and Rafi Sahab equally. Simillarly budding singers like KK,Babul always learned from the two legends.
Dear Messi, Udit Narayan had paid tribute to Rafi Sahab in Screen last year the copy which I have where he mentions that he belongs to Mohd Rafi School of Music.
No wonder that todays most successful singers Udit and Sonu owe their success to the humble giant Rafi Sahab.
The outlook survey where Rafi sahab songs were judged the best had Kumar Sanu,Abhijit along with Shankar Ehsan Loy, Javed,Khayyam,Mann da,Annu Malik etc….
Do I Have to say anymore ?
Narayanan
May 17th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Excellent article but the debate is healthy restricted to few like Haldar,Sudip,Manish,Naresh,MYK,Praksh,Shaan,Messi,Narayanan.
IN MY OPINION IF U TAKE THE ENTIRE BOLLYWOOD PLAYBACK SINGING FIELD ONLY 2 GAINTS EMERGE LATA AND RAFI FOLLOWED BY KISHORE,MUKESH AND ASHA. AS RIGHTLY POINTED BY HARIHARAN THAT 5 GREATS DOMINATED HINDI FILMS AND 5 GREATS DOMINATED SOUTH FILMS TMS,YESUDAS,SPB,SUSHEELA AND JANAKI.
DEAR DEBOJYOTI,
HOW CAN U TAKE ORKUT STATISITCS WHICH IS USED BY ELITE ?. U CAN COMPARE THE FEW AGAINST 100 CRORE POPULATION.
I HAVE ALSO INTERACTED WITH MANY THOSE FROM THE OLD AND YOUNG WHO LOVES GOOD MUSIC THE ABOVE IS TRUE. FACTS WILL BE BITTER BUT THEY ARE RIGHT.
AGAIN IAM NOT DEBATING OR BELITTLING UR FAVOURITE.
Regards,
Usha
May 17th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
Thanks everyone, especially the Kishore fans, for letting us share our thoughts freely on this website. Messi, don’t be upset when people compare the two; that’s bound to happen when you are considering the two greatest “playback” singers of all time. Do you know of any other pair in the music industry (e.g., Lata-Asha, RD-LP, Sahir-Majrooh) who is compared this often and that with so much passion? It just adds that extra glitter to tha aura of these two legends.
Here’s a parting thought. Dear Kishore fans, please listen to the 1958 duet Rafi sang with Asha in Kala Pani: Aachha ji main haar gaya maan jao na. Nothing extraordinary about the song, but take note of Rafi’s nuances for Dev in that song. Fast forward to Teen Deviyan (1965) and listen to Kishore’s Aare yaar meri tum bhi ho gazab; you’ll see how Kishore very intelligently adapted (not copied) Rafi’s style in that song and in many other Dev songs.
Rafi was a singer’s singer, someone whom Kishore, Manna, Talat and Mukesh adored; Yesudas, S. P. Balasubramaniam, and Udit Narayan idolized; and Mahendra Kapoor, Anwar, Shabbir Kumar, Mohd Aziz and Sonu Nigam emulated. So what if kids at Orkut and other websites don’t listen to Rafi? Rest assured that all their gurus used to listen to Rafi before going to sleep, so that they could go up a notch higher in the art of playback singing.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
P. Haldar,
Thanks for your comments. Jaikishan was Rafi inclined but I am pretty sure Shankar loved Rafi as much. In an interview I had read from Shankar, the questioner asked why after the success Manna had with SJ was he slowly eased out of SJ’s recording room in favour of Rafi. Shankar responded by saying that it wasn’t anything to do with easing out Manna, it was just that Rafi was miles ahead of him as a singer. On the other hand, Jai also composed for Mukesh as well, SJ made use of a variety of singers but Rafi was their ace.
Coming to RDB, as you said, he most probably wanted to be different, so he didn’t use Rafi saab as much. By 1980, Rafi was indeed singing a lot and had hits everywhere, and you are right, we might never know the amount of songs RD would have composed for Rafi in the 80’s. At that time, RD started taking Rafi more for not only films in general but big-budget movies as well.
Please keep on writing, your comments are very interesting and nice
What are your other views on RD vis a vis Rafi ?. RDB’s decline started around the early 80’s, could Rafi have saved him from that had he been there ?.
Sudip,
I had read one of your comments in another forum that “Zamane Ne Mare” and “Pyar Hai Ik Nishan” would feature in the Top 5 f RD, I agree with you, these two songs are both masterpieces from the RD-Rafi combo, they produced a lot of hits together.
Another favourite of mine is “Aye Jaan-e-Wafa” from Chhalia, fantastic use of the guitar by Pancham, and Rafi’s singing is excellent.
Please keep on writing as well, your views are also nice.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:02 pm
Dear Prakash,
U are r i g h t.
Actually RAFI saab took a big holiday from the industry when
he went for HAJ. During this period someone told rafi that
singing in films is haram not religious and the innocent rafi
believed it and went off to London to live with his sons.
There rafi sons due to the pressures to sing sent RAFI saab
back.
By this time due to the vacuum created by rafi absence - Kishore
Kumar came on back and this lasted for few years. Then Rafi saab
came with a bang with Laila Majnu.
R.D. BURMAN - would not have faded if he had balanced RAFI
and Kishore like what S.D.BURMAN had done earlier to the two
great talents.
The arrival of Kishore Kumar meant more variety and we are richer
musically - due to the great competition from two very talented
s i n g e r s of our times….
Lets enjoy the numbers of singers from 40s onwards. THEIR VOICES
WERE GOLDEN AND ALL OF THEM LEFT A GREAT LEGACY FOR US..
Lets enjoy these and desist from COMPARING OUR LEGENDS…
BINU NAIR..
binus2000@hotmail.com
May 17th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
Dear Hussein Sheikh,
You said Anil Biswas, C.Ramachandra, Salil Chowdhuri never reached the
top and came down very fast that too because they prefered otehr not
rafi ? come on, are you religiously blind ? They were legends by their
own rights. There were other great singer at that time, they were happy
with them so never tried with rafi. Don’t know about Anil Biswas and Rama
but Salil had so many excellent tunes with Rafi. Remember Madhumati ?
A lot more are there. Stop writing kiddish or biased statements.
There are only 3 MDs who got the highest award from Sangeet Natak
Academy and they are.
1. Salil Chowdhuri, 2. Naushad, 3. S.D. Burman
Mind you, Salil is there in the list and your comment is like he is not great.
Shan Nawaz,
Good to read your post. You think Sonu can sing in any pitch ? good joke.
Tell me any difficult song he sang ? yes he is technically more talented
than Udit, but he doesn’t have voice and melody.
He lacks the melody when he sings in high pitch, and this is his biggest
flaw. When he tries to sing in high pitch it seems it’s getting tough for
him and the melody is no more. Do you feel such in Udit’s voice ? no
not at all. All though Udit is not versatile or he is very monotonous but
he is anyday better than Sonu. Another major disadvantage is ask Sonu
to sing a sad song, you can feel what I am trying to say.
Udit can sing in any pitch, and with ease. I don’t see that perfection
and impact in sonu’s voice but both are talented but Sonu’s voice is
no match to Udit’s. Only thing I like about Sonu is he can sing Rafi
songs. Can copy Rafi with some percentage.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Debjyoti:
What is this ORKUT BUSINESS ?..
Rafi saab lives in the hearts of millions of music lovers not in ORKUT.
MORE, PLS MODERATE YOUR VOCABULARY as other writers can
write better dirty words, I am sure. But they would not stoop down
as they are educated and enlightened M U S I C lovers.
binu nair
May 17th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Kishoreda is the greatest of all times.Check different people paying tribute to the genius.
http://www.yoodleeyoo.com/specials/19th_death_anniv.html
May 18th, 2007 at 12:09 am
Dear Debjyoti
Kishoreda’s largest fan club in orkut has 68,000!!!!!!!!!!!! members while Rafi’s 10,000.!!!!!!!!This just shows what Kishoreda is.In fact,Kishoreda is the most popular singer,no other Indian!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!singer,are u sure?!!Do u know who is KK?!! only 68,000,Plz tell me when good music stared and when finished,as we know born in 1950’s was young in 1960’s was old in 1970’s and end in 1980 would u say why?Can u give RD best film?
u r!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????????
May 18th, 2007 at 12:22 am
I live in Africa and people (negros) here love and admire Rafi Saheb’s songs.
May 18th, 2007 at 12:33 am
This is Kishore Kumar’s site, but to my surprise, 90% praise Rafi Saheb in KK site!!! Rafi Saheb was far-far ahead of all singers including Lata Mangeshkar.
May 18th, 2007 at 12:41 am
Dear Messi, Salil Chowdhary made good songs I agree, but I said he was never on top like SJ, LP, KA and others…….. Rafi Saheb sang for him in Madhumati, Maya, etc….
May 18th, 2007 at 12:54 am
RDB had a hand in kk’s success, along with SDB..sdb used to give kishore a lot of his renditions during the early 50’s..butnot quite frequently during the late 50’s and ealry 60’s..after that he used kk more often!..
rafi was the prime singer and singer in demand in fact to be called the best in the buisness during the 60’s..but after aradhana it was kisorw who rose to the top..and in the 70’s..he was used more by most mds!..even lp,mm etc etc who were loyal to rafi during the 60’s..turned towars kk due to the latter’s growing popularity…lp told that n an inetrview that they were forced to use kk during the70’s more as kk was the singerin demand then..and ppl wanted his songs..Ka also used kk moreoften during the 70s..and every one knows abt the rdb-kk combo which took the music industry by storm after aradhana..!..
May 18th, 2007 at 2:24 am
most keralites like rafi songs than kksongs.most of us donot undstant hindi.but weapreciate hindi songs .whenever one speak abot kk he tends to compare him with rafi.when one speak about rafi he speak only about his magical voice and his special style of singing.in kerala there is a saying kks sound is coarse like the sound produced when a coconut shell is rubbed on a rock.this may be becose of the presence of kjdas and his sweet sound inkerala people so feel.i think kjdas better than kk
May 18th, 2007 at 9:08 am
Yes unknown,I am sure.You can check it in orkut.Kishoreda is infinity times better and more popular than any other singer,including Rafi.
May 18th, 2007 at 9:10 am
Ask any common people and experts,99% will say that Kishoreda is the best.
May 18th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
KK and Rafi are two different personalities all together. They both are legends.
KK intially was not very successfull as a singer in the 50s because the norm at that time adopted by most Music Composers for singers at the time was perfect Urdu pronounciation, range of operation on high musical notes, variation in voice. This was the era when Rafi and Manna Dey where holding the center stage in singing. The result which KK entered in different areas like acting, Comedy, music composition, writing apart from singing. It brought him in comparison every where, thought he can never be considered bad or sub standard in any one them.
Plus another factor was the most singers were trained by some Pandit / Ustad. For example Mukesh got training under Pt Jaganath Prasad. This helped him in building good reputaion with music composers Anil Biswas & Salil Chaudhuri. This is were KK was a bit unfortunate.
As an actor his co stars where always best Actresses like Madhu Bala, Nutan, Vijyantimala, Meena Kumari, etc. But since there were Dilip Kumar, Dev Anand & Raj Kapoor most of his works were over shadow.
Similarly as a Comedian there were Johnny Walker, Mehmood, Om Prakash, etc who were specialists in their area. Keshto Mukherjee just did one silly act through out his career, but he is remembered for that till date.
Same as music composer his compostions were brillant certainly superior that many C grade music composers of that time. He himself was not classically trained, but he certainly had a fair good knowledge of Raags. His composition “Koi Hamdam na Raha” is based on Raag Jhinjhoti.
Because of these comparisions KK faced stiff competition everywhere, the result of which he was not able to charish mass appeal in any area as such. Most artists whether singers, MD, actors, comedians, etc they concentrated in one area knowing their limitations and putting extra efforts on there strong factors. 50s and 60s for the era of perfection & accuracy where only the best was perferred. This was not the case with KK in 50s and 60s.
In late 60s and 70s KK concertrated only on singing, so one can see the results. Since KK charied mass appeal a singer in 70s his all previous achievements as an actor, comedian, film maker, director, music composer, song writer, etc. are looked upon as great quantities of a singer by history. That is what makes him a legend.
A lot of credit goes to Dada Burman in shaping KK as per his body language knowing his limitations. Later it was carried forward by son Pancham. Dada Burman was responsibile for songs for couples involving leg pulling. In majority duets sung by KK and the female counter part, KK always steals the show. In order words Dada new the right musical notes to exploit KK of screen.
A lot as been written on Rafi so no point in going in too much detail.
May 18th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
In Kerala during my visits I found the following facts.
a. K.J. YESUDAS IS THE NO one SINGER in Malayalam.
b. Mohd Rafi - in hindi leads by over 90% for his class singing.
there are Rafi pictures in most music lovers houses.
c. KK has sung a malayalam number but he has very few
followers.
binu nair
May 18th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
Mr Bapan: U use words like mad and donkey with whom you
do not agree. Each one has his right to opinion.
And each one know how to use better dirty words for persons such
as you but due to ethics and decency - they the music lovers of
class - wont use these.
By the way which school did you go if at all and do you buy
front row tickets for watching a movie since people with such
vocabulary are found there..
binu…. mumbai….
May 18th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
Jayanta, I thought I’d leave this debate and do other things till I saw your post on “even mm using kk more” and thought I’d like you to point out a few facts. I know you are an aRDent fan and I read your loRD’s blog site from time to time out of curiosity. Let me tell you one thing: among all the sites I have seen, yours is the site that distorts facts the most. The basic premise of your discussion is how everyone from SD to MM to LP copied your loRD’s tunes. Why do you do this? What purpose does it serve? I don’t have any problems if you think RD and Kishore are the best; you are entitled to your own opinions. But why say MM used Rafi more? Which song are you talking about: Ek Muthi Aasman?
The idiom that MM composed in is ghazal (gojol, as Bengalis would say) and he was the king. Forget Rafi and Lata, listen to his composition for Talat in Jahanara: Phir Wohi Sham Wohi Gam. This was in 1964 and Rafi was at his peak, but MM gave the song to Talat. When you get tired of listening to your loRD’s catchy songs, listen to this Talat gem and you will realize that RD, however talented he was, could never compose a ghazal like MM; the best he can offer is Hume tumse pyar kitna. And stop broadcasting to the world that your loRD composed Tumjo mil gaye ho; just because a few arrangers from RD’s stable played the music in that song does not mean it was composed by him. The problem with your loRD was that though he came in close proximity with Rafi at a young age (having ghost composed Sar jo zara tak